Better Offline CES 2025: Day 5 - Pt. 1

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Hello and welcome to day five of the Better Offline Consumer Electronics Show Saga. I'm your host edna. I am well, slept, I ate two meals yesterday. My feet feel great, I look fantastic. I'm having a hell of a show. But it's the last day, sadly, but only the last day of the show. We have today and then we have tomorrow, a kind of our positive masculinity day. We're getting we're getting massages, we're having brunch, We're gonna have a wonderful podcast,

How's everyone doing.

I'm great, as I just said, clearly was thinking of something else. But over to my right, I have the wonderful Sheilin Low, the debutyta Or and Gadget Shlan.

Thank you so much for joining us, Thank you for having me.

And to my right David j Roth.

How you doing, David, I'm good. How are you?

Oh wait, no, you already said that the only wanted to't ask?

Yeah, yeah, well you were everyone was doing Oh okay, Well, didn't ask though anyway until now. Yes, So how many CS is this? Is this for you?

I've well few enough that I'm not last season as people who have done this twenty five years. I think I'm under ten. I think nine or eight.

That's still a low.

Yeah, that sort of still seems high to me. This is my first and Edwards first.

Oh how does it feel?

Oh so real?

Yeah?

Yeah?

Is that everything you expected? And Moore? I want to know about Ann Moore. I want to know about.

Most of what I got in terms of expectations setting was from ed and it was like I kind of expected it to suck more than it does, okay, like because he was more or less, you know, trying to get me. I don't know if it was just that's how I was just motivated, Like you have no idea how depraved it is. Like you're going to see things down there and.

It's like that's it's a trade show.

Like, I mean, it still kind of stinks, but there's it was more normal for the most part, which made the stuff that was like ridiculous and dystopian pop that much harder for me.

I enjoyed it pretty well. Depraved. I'm sorry, yeah, go on, was there a version of it that was I feel like it? Okay, this CS is like surprisingly, I feel like Las Vegas as a city has figured a lot of it shipped out. Can I swear?

Yes?

Great?

Ah? Fuck? Don't do all the swears. Okay, just all right?

Okay, the brown word, you could say damn but not you know, but no, no sea words.

No, yeah, I think that's the one.

Yeah, okay, gotcha, So chicken.

So what do you how do you get like Vegas has like assimilated this?

Yeah? So, I mean you can see all the construction happening, but they've managed to make it so the construction is not impeding a lot of the getting around, which you have done in previous years of traffic. I'm sure you know.

And being at CS is like a double punishment.

Oh god, I don't know why you choose to do that to yourself, but you did choose to do this many decisions. The West Hall is beautiful. The fact that the weather is extremely beautiful this week makes everyone feel

So.

Yeah.

The one thing I will say that worries me about Las Vegas is for like a solid decade we lost the flappy guys, the guys who have the cards yes that they flip together to off for escals. Those guys disappeared for a long time. But for the first time since like twenty fourteen, I would say they're they're back, but there's not many of them.

They just kind of I saw them when I was last year, really when I saw you the first time that we met. Yeah, but they were like outside of the insurance convention that Jaython had been.

The right place to be.

Yeah, maybe they're just like looking at the people that are going to see yes, and or like these are this is not an escort crowd.

Yeah, they just they have a meeting beforehand and they have like an Excel spreadsheet they all work through and like.

We're really the odds out, let's make it happen during AVN Again, that's not just no no, no, no no.

Maybe maybe they're like these guys can build their own escorts, you know, like the robots that we saw this year.

Yeah, yeah, that there was a tap hunter washing and post a narcle about that where it was like the conversation with the guys about that, and everyone's just like, I don't, I don't know, man, Like it's just I'll link to it in the in the thing. But I do think the tech industry reporters do kind of need to look at AVM more and kind of broaden out from this stuff.

But because as much and I do apologize.

To female listeners who feels like who said stuff about being gross a few times on this, but I will say sex perversion all that is a part of society and one can be puritanical about it, but that area needs more coverage. And we've kind of talked about seeing the various dilldonics manufacturers around here.

That sounds better when you use the technical terms stiltonics, advanced tillics, A lot more consonants than you'd expect, right, But I feel like that is a weirdly left out part called jet age.

I think I can't speak for all of the tech media, but we're Engadget. It's like we've got a prioritize he has is such a huge show. We've got the krs of drones and robots. We do cover sex tech like this year there was the motor Bunny or Motor.

Fluffy, Motor Bunny power and know uh something powered by Fluffer I haven't read yet, thank you.

That was when I went back down to the floor.

For what I'm writing, it is motor Bunny powered by Fluffy. And then there's another low Vents is the one that's across from it. That was the one where they actually like I was there with a guy's like a producer for other podcasts like Friends of Ours that we're also here and has like it's sort of like a running gag in those podcasts that this guy's life is just completely feral and like just how to take care of himself. And I saw him like blush while getting just instructions

Sure bit just because you know the news there though, no they're making uh I believe Adel Donn. That's powered by game control. Well I thought it was a game.

The game is called fabby Bunny. Yeah, but it's this sort of thing, like you, there's a limit no one expects me to do, really grig Journals. I'm a sports writer and I'm here because there's a fulld out bed and everything. Ause I enjoy hanging out with my friends. Also for the podcast, also for the podcast, but the idea of like having to look someone in the face while he says like fappy bunny to me, Like just like it's a normal thing to say to a guy.

I think, do you think it's it's odd because you're both men may presumably sis hetero men in the space same sites, because I covered this from the woman's angle to your point that like in tech, especially a space that's not predominantly like friendly to women. You know, you know, the CTA has been notorious for not wanting to showcase sex type for women thing. Yeah, so I mean since the big huhah, I think four or five years ago Laura to Carlo really went out and said, like, why

That actually feels like that might be very use It is.

Actually useful because the pitch back then and you know, men, when you have erectile dysfunction, for example, it could be an indicator that something's wrong with your heart health. It could be something that's wrong somewhere else in your body. It's like a check engine light for women. It could be similar. Like, we don't have enough data, and that

Yeah, but I think that you raised something with David. Men in general do not discuss sex, thank you, and men have a very hard time talking about like arouse, they talk about lust. They're very good at discussing the journey and all that. Like it's almost like, oh, sex is something we do in a dark crew and we hide from it despite men also craving it.

So the discussion with men about sex is actually quite rare.

I only have to I never talked about having sex with you guys, not literally doing it, but it also having had sex in general, which is the one rule we have here, does not happen at ces. That's that's a choice. But nevertheless, it's like men don't have these

Yeah, yeah, I think we should be talking more and more about it. Like I just from you bringing that up, Ed, I was like said, I was like, oh, yeah, men probably don't even talk about because I have for a large chunk of my life been like we need to talk more about sex just a monstreament. I think we need to talk about what gets you, what an orgasm feels like? Like what is all this stuff? Because there's people that are not having it and that's just depressing.

Joy in it. There is so much that and like the intimacy you can have with someone with having a detailed, meaningful conversation about what gets you both off. It's something you can walk and you need to.

Talk to your partner about it. What are you going to do or talk to yourself about it? Figure yourself out and then talk to your partner or partners or whatever you want to do with people about it. Like you should be experiencing joy and every and and I get that as we're talking about this, people already feeling squeamish, like I'm sure listeners are like uncomfortable with the topic. It's it's not like I don't know how we're going to integrate.

Your listeners are demanding did she.

Has try to overcrack? Because I feel like when I looked at the innovation awards when I first or not overcracked. But have they tried there's has their response been like, oh, we don't want that backlash, or oh, we are like changing our mind about it. I because I because I didn't realize that they have given an innovation award and removed it. They had an innovation award to a vibrator to a smart I think dolphin or vibrator toy in general, but that was the only one that I saw and

Kind of like lip service kind of like just giving you your here have this and like don't bother as anymore.

So I think it's I think thematically relevant as well, because there's a real irony about it, because the reason they're probably not putting it front and center is that like I was just giving into iniquity all these people just be talking about, right, So instead you do the thing that's well known with sex that you should do, which is repression. Yeah, when you just hide it all versus and you talk about people being uncomfortable talking about this, we're not talking.

About the actuspects of it not.

But also there is joy and happiness within this in the same way that not real problems of being solved all the time here sex toys are actually solving them on the I can't.

Speak to how squeamish or not squeamish ces is because I don't know very much about it, But it feels like this is a dynamic that we've kept coming back to in these which is like this is a product

I can't speak for like more than ten years past, but yeah, yeah, I guess I mentioned this recently. Like it started as feeling like the Home Entertainment LG show, along with some like laptops and Hairy Bud sprinkled around.

Right, I gather there was an auto show era.

Yeah, there was one year where it was the Car Show, and then now it is the AI Show. But then you still have like I think South Hall has always been filled with like gadgets that feel like do dads

You know, I saw so many different kinds of the same battery pack.

Thank you.

Yeah, I also love battery packs.

I saw so many smart rings. I saw so many you know, it's the one year there was massage chairs everywhere, and now it's like their transformer massage chairs everywhere. It's it is, to an extent always that kind of show.

Somewhat pivot here, but one of pieces of gadget's coverage was about these new.

Like vacuums they with the arms.

Can you hold me through what the hell that is?

Yeah?

I mean you had Charissan on your show recently.

She's coining you covered its good. Yeah, very unfomous bell but yeah, no, she tell.

Me about this.

So so it started with robo Rock. I'm gonna paint a tail for you here. Robo Rock is one of the most well known names in the roboback space. And you know those spinning robot vacuums and go and clean your floors for you. The innovation in them has in the past or in recent years been like combining the vacuum and mopping features. Now they're like, how else do

Jecks up to three hundred a little more than half a pound.

Yeah, so roboocks vacuum only has that weight limit. And then and the funny thing is with ce as we were just talking about this, every other Robovat company was like, we also have arms. Here we go. Dreamy, for example, was supposed to only debut it's like stair climbing robot, which also is another obstacle in these homes, decided to show off its arm. But it's a more solid looking clamp situation that seems to be able to handle like way more weight. So yeah, exactly, I'm like, I good

Has like a you know, it's sort of reassuringly concrete relative to some of the area or stuff. Not only can you see what problem they're aiming to solve, but you can like sort of watch the process of competition playing out.

Yeah.

In terms of that, whereas and the thing that I felt and you were you saw like actual crypto guys talking today, like the maximum amount of abstraction, the language where you're just kind of like we I don't even understand what you're what you're fixing for me here? Yeah, beyond like a comprehensive reimagining of my life that removes any personal agency and replaces it with your proprietary yeah, algorithms or whatever it is.

So on the subject of robots, though, what else have you seen?

Yeah, A lot of the robots we saw and liked anyway, we did a round up at Engadget mostly were these like cute, emotional support robots, Like.

Everyone's talking about these them, but it seems that everyone actually likes them.

We like them because they're cute, right, and they're like some of them are like eighty bucks. It's like eighty bucks.

Yeah, why not?

Like I would get I'm a person who has some form of self diagnosed OCD, which is I don't like pets because they mess up my place, right, and so I still want the warmth and tender love of a cute, little furry creature that can do its own thing but not poop. And they the idea of a furry robot that has warmth that can generates One of them does so. The not the Yukai engineering, the rope pet. The rope pet does generate warmth, and so it sort of feels

I really don't I have not seen this thing yet, but the idea of something staring at me really free.

Though I don't know. I think it's a character personal.

The tombot that we saw, Yeah, Leo, there's a dog for people with dementia that I mean, at first glance also did feel and look like a like a dog, right, And it's kind of just programmed where it's like, you know, maybe you would you would benefit from having the companionship, but you you're, you're, you're dementias to it progressed for you to be able to take care.

Right.

See that's a really good use case.

You can't talk to them at all, because the only question I have there is if in the latter stages and experiences I've had mostly through friends, is wouldn't they forget about it? Would it not be jarring? But I honestly I really am rooting for them because that sounds lovely. That sounds like something that actually solves a problem of you can't really do contiguous care when you yourself are kind of out of sync with the world due to your condition. See, this is the thing, is we roll

It's just Vegas, no exactly.

Yeah, there is that feeling of that's like the bit of it that has when I've felt overwhelmed by this beyond them, like the volume, like the physical challenge of

So how long have you been here is? Or how many days?

Oh yeah, I landed January fourth, Saturday, and today is what Friday? So and I'm leaving tomorrow. I have big plans to go explore the desert or something, and I'm here, like to go and get on an ATV or something and go like just because today officially everyone's flying home from my team and so yeah.

Not y'all salt or salt bed.

I guess assault bed.

I think it's you know if oh.

Oh the flat light? Yeah, gotcha. No, I haven't go for a hike. Yeah, I want to do that after this, which is why when you ask me to stay for long, a girl was like, ed, not that long.

I gotta go.

I have to go visit a canyon. I have to do something lost in the mountains. If you would never hear from me again, you.

Want to be very lost, just be me. So so far, what is your favorite thing you've seen? I say so far? As we talk about the end?

Yeah, hard to choose. Can I say what is not the favorite thing I've seen?

Absolutely?

I've seen this video making the rounds. Now that I finally had some time to get back on my social media like binging habits and on Reddit and on a lot of social media platforms, this video of this AI sex robot.

Yeah, the one hundred and seventy thousand.

Yeah, the one with the dark haired, dark long hair, looking like they're falling off a chair.

Basically, yeah, when we will hit the brake in like eight minutes, let'll show you a picture. But it is really funny because I love that there's always one company that does something like this where they just everyone experiences the Uncanny Valley at once. Yeah, and they're like, but we got a ton of press out of it. Every article is just like this horrifying thing. A company is made, these these evil people. They talk about them like one

I saw something that kind of reminded me of this where it was and it was this humanoid robot and it was very loudly, clearly saying I'm a text based AI, do.

Not have a body, and it's fully imp.

And I was just like, Okay, that's this is a good gimmick because that only comes up. I stood there for about ten minutes. That only comes up like once every seven minutes for a while the rest of the time, you can do the little gimmick where you're talking to it and it's speaking and you just don't hear that.

It's like, w it's a waste. Oh that's a tough one, hey baby, I somehow missed the Hall of Uncanny humanoids, which is like, thank goodness, and it's still a couple of hours left.

I guess I could go down.

I just sort of robot with like a Donald Trump masco on took a picture then immediately deleted it because I know when someone's trying to get coverage. I know when someone's just Donald.

In sense that was the case with the sex spot that they were just basically like, I mean this we got mentioned in the Wall Street Journal. They called this the embodiment of everything that's wrong with temporary culture.

You know, like, yeah, no, I think to your point, the it's refreshing for me to see the pr angle of this that you're thinking of. I know, I'm just there like, oh right, yeah, this is a cheap method to employ I I didn't get that vibe. We didn't even cover it. None of it was not even on our radars, Like yeah.

Because don't encourage them. But also back to the earlier theme, it's like a thing, a thing made by someone who is not actually interested in people having sex or meaning exactly direct SEXU relationships. It's like, what are these ugly pigs that never have sex? One a horrible robot that looks like kind of like a woman, so they can have their horrible sex in a locked room, criminalizing sex, treating it like this ugly thing that we should hide

Yeah, making fun of their target audience, which is the irony of that is so strange.

This is empathy and joy and honesty about sex, which is like a meaningful thing that people should explore.

It's part of life. Yeah, I disagree. Is how we got here.

Listen to Protestants were onto.

Something I love. It seemed to be fifty to fifty split on this. It's pretty normal about it.

Before I came to Las Vegas. Now I'm taking a hard stance to get this ship out.

Sex is out in twenty twenty five, before I came here as a freak and I'm leaving with some some change.

I hear about crypto apparently what you're a convert now?

Oh yeah, I you know, I think I should be on the blockchain.

I think, oh gosh, oh god, you know someone's done yeah, like with unutterable horrors that has now that it's been uttered.

Yeah, who knows what's going.

On in Thistle Street general cs, abomination.

Of the Yeah, yeah, I bet money is someone I know like them or a friend is making it right now.

They should be making something else. They should like getting their affairs in order. When I find not, that's it. So as we as we approached the break, here, is there anything else you're going to see on the show? Are you've just done?

Okay? So I'm here for personal interest.

Now.

Last night I was supposed to already be done working, but I went to the Venetian Expo and I saw some like last minute accessibility related products that's always been like a topic I pay attention to myself. We actually, I'm very proud to say this, and Gadget's like best of Sea as winner, like the best in show. Best of all the things we saw was a smart cane for the blind.

So we talked about this and it's good, like because my worry with it was a it needs an Internet connection if it's going GPT thing. But it works.

It worked, Yeah, and in the busy wife like convention floor where like you assume the Wi Fi is like clogged as as shit, right, and I did not clarify or verify what type of Internet connection was using. Was it on device? I bet it's not because there's a very thin, like well made device, like they folded it up unfolded it showed me. I held it in my hand and used it a bit. It seems to work really well.

It's the white like on it.

It is slightly heavier than I think you're conventional like folding cane for people who are visually impaired, but not too much heavier. Not to be clear, this is like a second generation of an existing product. The first one was a bit heavier, so they've refined it. They've made the handle a little easier to hold. They've replaced like a touchscreen sort of button situation with tactile buttons, which should have been in the first one, right, like why

This is what Crisaer I believe said about it. It's like it still functions as a device. It's just the Wi Fi thing, is what it's because if it's if the whole thing is a model.

Well, but it's not entirely like a chat GBT only. I mean the term by turn navigations is something that is quite important to the concept here, and the fact that it will like that has a speaker on board to like answer questions and stuff like that. So those are important things. But it's also got like a flashlight on board those sorts of things that don't require Internet right for example. So that's something we you know, should

I would love to know.

Yeah, I'll find out.

So as we come towards the right Edward Guise journey, Weacking People find.

You newsletter The Tuckbubble dot Substock dot Com podcast. This Machine Kills and then Big Black Jack a bit on Twitter and Blue Sky Shelan. We can people find you.

It feels like every social media app is closing, So sure c h R O I n N dot, bskuy dot Social is the safest one to say an email, sure ch r at ngadget dot com or just in gadget.

Dot and of course then Gadget I'll be putting the links to the best show in the notes. Don't worry, mister Rothwacken.

People find defector dot com and the Distraction podcast and.

Also it's Christmastown podcast. I'm at Zitron. You can find me everywhere everywhere. You just Google takes biggest Nastiest Baby, and that's what I pop up past. Now, if you're a big nasty baby and you love products because you're.

Way I love.

I've got all this money and I don't way to put it or don't know what podcast where, then just follow the ads off to this. You'll have something and we're back. So Sherlin Shelin. We talked just before this about this infrared mask. Now I say this for both personal and professional reasons. What was this and why does what does the infrared mask thing?

Do.

Okay, so it's not just infrared. This is Shark's Cryoglow and it debuted at CEUs twenty twenty five. It is the latest in a string of like full face like light based mask devices. You've probably maybe you've heard of their faces.

Oh no, I'm going to be completely honest. I've been targeted with these things. Yes, masks you put on the kind of lose something to you and just being so because I have like gaunt eyes, I look like I'm Polish British.

It's not you're too mean to yourself, but god I am.

But that's part of the show. But for real, though, what do these things actually why do you use them as a person?

Okay, So, red light therapy, when used with effective components, it is suppose to help like anti aging, help reduce fine lines or signs of signs of aging, finance, wrinkles. The blue light is supposed to help with antibacterial so it's good for acne. Purportedly, infrared is helping with some level of rejuvenation under the skin as well as penetrating the layers of the skin. I know this is because of the facials that I take, and I include the

There is a laser safety specialist. It's currently he's just got his head in his Sharon, please keep.

Talking about Yeah, I'm not sure how effective, right, Like it's so hard to tell with these things, like when you have to use them for six months to like see any Resultsay, no, oh no, I don't. I mean I don't think they're completely unsafer useless. Right.

He's not saying that, he's just going to he would come over and say something about how lazist. Just sorry, Phil, come over. Why are you complaining?

Grab a chair, Grab a chair.

Please share your microphone with him so he can have his party.

I wasn't complaining.

You had your head in your hands. Yes, now he's taking a knape.

Because now this is just when I once again would like to take a moment to really give thanks to the deeply overworked, put upon, and underfunded folks at the Food and Drug Administration, specifically for the Center for Device and Radiologic Heal.

Yeah, I agree for whom None of.

These products ever get to them, nor do they get approved.

Are they not like home? I feel like there have to be like home versions of this stuff.

And that's kind of looking at there are what did the cryo one do?

So the cryo part of it where these two metallic plates are under the eye and they were just cold, and it was so comfortable that felt, And that's very useful for ski exactly exactly the important thing that having had products like this come through where I work at exceptional expense because they have success managed to sell them to NFL teams.

I've had to stop people from spending hundreds of thousands of dollars for you have gotten an ir hot red light therapy unit. What it's doing is providing heat. How is that different than the hot lamp at McDonald's. It's considerably cheaper or alternatively, the thing we have literally been using since time immemorial hot water bottles now in a face mask form. It's to get it where it needs to be. That is valuable putting an ir diode in it.

Is not okay.

So nothing wrong with the face mask.

Then, no other than do not sell the sematical product.

Do not well, no one does.

Don't try to make a claim. Do not allude to a claim, which many people are I want to find to let you make that assumption for them. Yeah, and if they're feeling really good, they actually put a disclaimer on their product so they I don't have to afford them to the FDA.

No, no, no, you need to do that. I have some so too as well.

Please absolutely, But coming so this.

Mask, so you have the cold bits, So is that to help with ibag semis.

Yeah, it's just to help with like exactly tightening the skin back up or just you know, feeling fresher when you've had a rough night. And so the heat and you use these so I've used it for like a minute, so don't But you've used the masks in general though, Oh no, the other two No, actually, I mean just the inforation. Yes, I have used the Salon greed ones, not the ADM.

What do they do like, it's it's just the heat kind of Yeah.

You're supposed to put them on your face and then turn like a four minute, eight minute, six minute session and then yeah, the not heat necessarily the ir ones do you have heat? The red light therapy just shines the light on you. There's the blue light depending on which treatment you selected. And the cold for me was the only thing I could really walk away from the experience having felt and it sounds I was so I was very pleased with it. I will tell you I

You know.

I was like I needed this exactly. And it's like we're I think, as we see more competition in this space where hopefully we'll see more people focus on what's actually going to work in this sort of device where there's a lot of like junk science. There's a lot of like and my brain is so not working, but like stuff that doesn't quite work.

It's you do science stuff, and it's they make these claims, and they do it at the show where everyone's making some molobally claims.

It's such a challenge to parse through all of it, but also.

How does can I ask it just as it editorially? Yeah, like how do I know that you You know? The short answer is you work with a bunch of smart people that know their fields and stuff. Like that, how do you know like which, because there's we saw multiple smart canes. I don't know if we saw the one that you all awarded, Like, how can you tell if it's if it's good or not. That's kind of a remedial way of phrasing it. My brain's also not but we can just whatever make our little dolphin sounds back

I think it's partly because in Gadget has had such a history of covering CEOs. We have the process down pad. We start the process the second we get the full exhibit or list for shows like Unveiled, and.

Patrick actually woke us through the process.

Yeah of course.

Yeah.

So yeah, for this was my first year like fully running the show for the team, and I started later than I wanted to. Like since July, I've been like, we need to start playing CEOs right and we at least get the trouble and accommodation booked ahead of time. But this year we started like November, which was late for us, and it was very late. I was very nervous. But the CTA also didn't have a lot of the directories for us to pass through until the week before Christmas.

Is a junk?

Right?

And then the process actually happens before we fly off to Vegas. When we do get here, then we make the assignments of like we're going to unveil, We're going to Pepcom, We're going to these booths. These are the things that actually look interesting. We'll go and look at them. These are things that we don't know if they're good or not. We need to investigate them. We have a tag internally called investigate, and so we go look at the thing on the show floor. We have our reporters

Audio and oh my god, he's so good, right, but that's the thing. You have specialists.

We have so much. Yeah, So Billy Steele's our specialist on audio. I mean, the vendro was here. He's our chip guy.

Oh he was stalking in video.

Oh yeah, all in video all day and NPCs as well, I mean in video. I mean we have a bunch of chip people too, which I'm so grateful for. And we have multiple experts on some categories and they can trade information. I wish you would get a chance to see the debates that happen in our room sometimes, right, Like, yeah, next year, next year, this will be the Engadget podcast basically will have the topic exp.

We've got three of you on. I'm happy to have more.

I'm glad you've had so many. I mean, there is such a diversity of voices and opinions on the team to which I really like. And when they fight it out, that's my favorite because I'm like, yeah, we can't agree to disagree.

But also I've been quite critical of some of the tech media on here, and I really this show is not about like just see us. It's about kind of explaining how the tech media functions because it's very easy too. And I don't mean this is this insult to a gadget. You could put it the c Net or even the Virgin Yeah, definitely tech crunch. It's you think, oh, they just turn up, and then they go it's the big company.

Is That was the bit that was like interesting to hear for.

I mean, obviously it sucks that you had to spend your entire holiday season parsing a list of twenty five hundred, three thousand hour many companies are, but it seems like it's so patently unmanageable, like it is, it was unmanageable for us.

I don't know.

You probably did see everything, ever, because you were here longer than me, or came close to that.

I don't see the day I discovered that that there was a cryptal pavilion that had been going on for the entire time. Yeah, and I felt like I had I didn't see it. I looked everywhere, you know, I accidentally stumbled on it because I was like.

What am I doing in? Yeah, and that is like I don't know.

I mean, I guess that's like sort of what happens with the show like this that like you know, the idea is that you know, for them, I guess the business is you said, whatever it is, five thousand dollars a table for starters, and then it probably significantly more. Exactly, it's like, so you don't say no to anybody unless it's like a women's health Yeah, I guess, yeah they don't.

We don't do that. But the idea of trying to manage something this size, it's it's impressive. Like that's like a you know, I I have so much self doubts. I'm always like did we cover everything? That we miss something? And it's you're always going to So that's why I had to, like I let the team PEP talk with this, like we're here. Number one, we made it here. Some people missed their flight, some people were sick, right number two, something's going to go wrong and oh yeah, we'll just

That was the first thing I said to Phil.

Well, good, there you go.

Yeah, something will go.

Wrong exactly, so we cannot get hung up on like I missed this thing. I'd say, I if I do that to myself at this show and to my team, we will just never walk away from this feeling like we've done our draw you.

Cover just being great. And I say this like truly as a reader of Engadget from fifteen plus years, like like a long.

Long time just turned twenty something, twenty twenty.

Yeah, that makes sense. And it's like this is a mammoth show to cover and it's hard to And I've had the same thing running. This is my first CS. I've run better offline on and it's like, yeah, I'm like, shit, I miss this. I'll see an article go and'll be like, I'm the worst. I have failed the show. I've endangered the mission and it's just impossible to do. So I'm gonna change tech because you actually and this is a miss of mind. Can you tell me what the Samsung

Well, I don't know that it's even here at CS twenty twenty.

Five, or someone's been showing pictures of it.

Yeah, Bali. Bali's actually been at CS twenty twenty four while it was debuted at CS twenty twenty four. But the concept of this like rolling robot that Samsung makes has been around for like what five years, I want to say at least, if not longer, and it's in its like most mature iteration. The one that's going on sale. It's a bowling ball sized yellow robot that rolls around your house. It's got a built in projector. It's got

You know?

More of that claims to be cute. I guess send Via do that for fraid.

I'm just gonna say seeing the pic, like again, I don't there's a part every time somebody has talked about like being like, yeah, it follows you around, it can project stuff. There's it's not a good question. But the thing that's in my head is just like, really me, but are you sure? That sounds really hard?

That's it. It is a cute little guy.

And if you think this is like something that I U sort of picked up, I guess also from Chris of that does it does seem to be like one of the themes of the Cees is cute little guys.

So this this fits.

This is like, you know, it doesn't just blinking. What follows you around turns your stove on.

I say this with my Bengal cat Babo, who is my familiar and he follows me around and he mows at me, wants to be an eye level.

Screaming at you.

I really enjoy that.

That's his sister, Pokey. I will post it go to my socials. Pokey's his little system, My beautiful screaming queen who loves to scream at me. She just wants affection all the time. And who doesn't. Baboo is the beautiful smelt Bengal who's mostly just stopped and he hasn't meow anyway. I guess that's why I don't need this thing, because I already have something amazing to follow me. But at the same time, putting that aside, why do I need a robot following me? Why is to what end is

And I also asked when did the shift to like affectionate intelligence.

To Yeah, that's actually a good point.

I mean, has that been something you guys have detected over the past few years.

My opinion is, I mean, the IBO has been around for for a very long time, and it's peaked everyone's interest, but it never really took off. Nobody really sold them but robotics if you really look at the space in the real world where is robotics. Robotics is in manufacturing ROBOTICSYSM warehouses. They don't need to be humanoid robots, None of them needs to be. They just need to be arms that repeat and action over and over again and.

Do it so well.

I value in the exactly do the things that we don't want to do? These things you know, we've I think we are collectively learning that the humanoid robots don't quite make sense other than to impress people to stalk in AWE created movies, remind people about the terminator exactly, and the actual helpful robot arms in those like manufacturing spaces are not as sexy and not as appealing visually. So what else is that far anyway for something might be right? Sure, but then like what is the next

A conveyor belt place, Yes exactly, but that was her number one ship all through our twenties.

That was yeah, forever, like whatever her birthday. Yeah, this is different places.

Yes, you did not't say that. I just take you just said her her.

Don't worry about it. Yeah, Scarlett Johansson's voice.

Do you know them? But my wife loves the you know, like whatever a piece of nigary slowly approaching you and you get to be like.

It's my favorite thing. Kua Revolving Sushi has a robot that brings you your drinks when you request for it, right, Like all the servers have to do is place your drink on the tier.

And then I was in career at the beginning of last year there was a dishwash dishbot but it worked like and it seemed to actually work these like robotics is here, but like many things, I guess it's not that exciting.

Yeah, this comes back to something that we were talking about yesterday, like if the actual applications for a lot of these robots are like, like you said, it's like either elder care or accessibility and stuff like that. That seems like it's the case for a lot of this stuff. A lot of the sort of like augmented reality is if that's the term for it, I don't know if it's a R or whatever.

Not the thing like the brain implant, what do you call it?

You're a link Novai, Yeah, yeah, but like one that was made up, so like just your control of.

It's like all of that seems to be about helping people who have these and yet like it's feel like with this robot, like you make it cute because and you show when you're like demoing it for people, you don't want people to think about being sick.

I guess that's not good for advertising.

Yeah, but you show them instead this thing that like I'm not sure that people really want to be like followed around their house, Like I'll turn my own stove on, honestly, Like I don't want anyone else to be Yeah yeah, yeah right. But it's so there's something funny about the idea of like inventing this thing that actually is useful. Actually it could add value to people's lives, but you.

Can't sell it.

Yeah, in a way, here's the thing actually reflects its utility.

I Again, another thing I've ranted about for a couple of years now is how much we're failing people in terms of elder care, long term care for people in late late stages of life. And the reason we do that as a society is because I think companies and corporations don't see value in providing this sort of care or more products in this space, right, And so that's why they don't want to tell you that this is

And there is a reason then that absolutely is it because you don't get a growth.

Market exactly, the growth growth mindset that sucks exactly.

And you also don't get growth out of things with elderly people other than being a private, privatey equity firm that buys old people.

Yes, I mean this is This is one thing I think of with the care economy, which is like the growth of it has been decided largely by the consequences of private equity firms laying waste.

To infrastructure seeing they can build into it, and then the.

The evaporation of resources for facilities leading to these firms, these on demand firms, coming in and applying the uber model to them and saying, look like we will create a marketplace where the nurses will bid each other to the lowest possible price. So it's come in without training. I mean training in the sense not like because they're not employees, they're not hold where things are, who to take care of, how to how to operate like that.

Like itinerant nurse like traveling nurse economy and suck and that.

And this makes me think of what we see sometimes with some of this technology that's being offered, and that you know, some of the things that we've seen would be very good and very useful and should be durable, sustainable businesses just offering care to help people are not able body to help people who are incognitive decline, who to help people who need care? And yet when we would talk with some of them, you could see like that's actually that's not always the first way they think

You know, like you have to like bang.

It's such a bizarre thing for me too, especially when you consider like what amazing I mean for the ones that actually exist, Like not everything that we saw, you know, exists in any sort of real stage yet, but like the idea that you have to like bang on the sort of fantastical growth possibilities instead of the actual service. Yeah, that you have created a thing that can you know, provide this very service with this remarkable bit of technology you did.

There's no further ways to monetize the old person. I'm not I like that it's funny whatever, Well not for me because I'm like the joker, because I love for the sad things. But it's this sense of well, there's not why am I investing in these people? Like, why would I invest in the old person? They're going to die soon anyway, and we need.

To get a sciety.

Yeah, we live in a society.

That's the part that's kind of weird about it, because it's not wrong to say that this is like a niche marketplace, correct, and yet it's like it's also not. It is also like one of the least niche experiences possible is getting old and die, Like that's a pretty universal human I mean, for those of us that are lucky to make it that far.

Like, yeah, it's weird. I mean, I guess this is like sort of a going to.

Be a recurring theme anywhere that you go to, like a trade show where people are trying to make a billion dollars hut end.

I was very encouraged to see this year. There has been quite a lot more attention in this space. Right we saw the ARP had a I mean, I so I stopped by the h Tech pavilion on the show.

But we really haven't heard about this.

Yeah, so I went there and the h Tech Pavilion, presented by ARP, I guess is just a space in the show floor. They have so many of these like dedicated spaces carved out. They had a speech that where they presented four special products I believe, well, the one I saw and I tried on were this pair of pants by Arcterix and a company called Skip that they've

And often these people are maybe thinking of someone in my family refused to get any fucking help because they like.

I'm not nothing's wrong with me.

I'm just thinking constant pain and have mobility.

Yes, but these things sound kind of magical for me.

These are these are going to be great, But these are for because they're Arctiator an outdoor like a Parel brand and that sort of thing. They're designed for like hiking. And that's so it's more like if you're at a stage in life where you're so burdened by some like like pain or body pain, that like going outside seems like such a pipe dream anymore, like climbing a mountain, level a hill, right, Like you can walk around, you can't really be active exactly, like challenges like scaling, like

Were they powered by anything or were they just there's.

A battery pack in the back of the pants.

And in the waste they do Did they support the knees or the legs?

Yeah? So the one I tried by Arcterics had three like braces, one around the ankle, one around the knee, and one around like the thigh, and then the robot arm which just kind of propel you in those moved around right, and it's design my demo, we had to go to like stairs because that's where you would demonstrate the effectiveness more. Yeah, it's supposed to push you up.

Well, I in the last few in like the last year, I've really got into yoga, and I would say a year ago, i'd have trouble getting on and off the floor, right, And I'm decent, Like I'm decently able, but like I don't have something wrong other than the fact that I was deeply inflexible. Being able to do that now is magic. But that took a shit ton of effort to get But also I didn't have any mobility issues that would have precluded me from doing yoga. Yeah, so this, do you know how expensive this is?

Yea?

How expensive we talk?

I mean, you know the Octor Express.

I was going to say that they have it doesn't have robot arms in it, It's still like expensive.

How much we're talking?

Yeah, I didn't think so they have no actual info ya, but the ballpark figure that I'm hearing is like five thousand, And I was like, are you going to talk to insurance providers? To get the subsidized. They were, like, they want to consider it. I don't think this is a product. The insurance providers have to decide whether to cover it.

They barely cover medicine exactly.

There you go, my I don't want to get into it.

But and also I can't imagine you're like anybody's pants, Like you're not selling a lot of stuff at MSRP when it's five thousand dollars exactly.

To be honest, though, secretly, this is the stuff I'm most excited about because like the idea of just putting on a suit that makes you able bodied for anyone is kind of magical. Yeah, Like I don't know, Like I was a very heavy kid, grown like three hundred and twenty five pounds, and that alone like didn't mean I was strong, which is very embarrassing when you're lodge high,

You want to hear something. Absolutely after I saw those I walked downstairs to the Kickstarter booth, and the Kickstarter booth had a company from somewhere in Asia, I think Taiwan or China, I can't remember, called Hypershell, and they make like a non pants version of There's exoskeleton. It is between eight hundred to fifteen hundred dollars depending on the material car.

When you say non pants, how does that?

Yes? So it's this sort of brace that you strap on around your waist to start, and then you strap like two things to your knees and they're basically an exoskeleton. The reason is not on Engadget Communist. I haven't written it out yet. I'm still technically working, I guess, but chilling and yeah, and so they do the same thing the Arcto ex pants do, except for in an exoskeleton that you strap around your clothes. So cool.

I love.

Yeah.

Actually, i'll show you a video right now.

I don't know if if you can, when will you write up your store?

Just send me then I will send you the link.

Yeah.

I'm hoping to do it tomorrow and have it up over the weekend on our website.

And I just I think that this is what I wish CS or was, because if you think about what makes technology actually magical, it's stuff that makes you stronger connect with people. Quicker allows you to explore who you are and who other people are in an honest way. And when it gets worse, it's when people interfere.

With that process or slap AI and everything or slap.

AI and everything. So as we go, as we sadly come to the end, we've got four minutes left. Was there anything you were like, your favorite favorite thing? Was there something you miss Is there anything you really missed that you truly liked or despised?

I can't something that made me laugh, but I kind of liked it sold What was that? So we start noticing a trend and yes, twenty twenty five, Chris I might have talked about it, but Dan Cooper on our team was the first one to crystallize this idea with this term. I mean I crystallied the idea without this fancy name that he came up with it. Please sit

I got to so I it's a cool idea. They were not letting people put it in their mouth.

At that point. There was like a video they probably ran out. They was giving away disposable ones that failed.

Yeah, there were like a couple of them sitting on the counter and I like picked it up and I was like, I don't know, feels good, Like I don't like a spoon more, yes, but stranger. But then there was like a video of a guy eating the robin with it.

Yeah, but you know you had to get like, do you like, Yeah, it's the one with the electromagnetic things to make you taste the saltiness form.

Yes, exactly, So think about it if you're trying to consume like less sodium in your life, but you still want to have salty foods. This food supposed that if you use to spoon, it'll turn everything you put in your mouth by tricking your taste buds into something that's like thinking that something salty or saltier than it al.

I learned about this from Jesse Ferrara, where I get all my scientific information. But this is apparently the same technology that people use for saltwater pools. That it's basically a way of like making something salty without like dumping a bunch of sodium into.

So the idea is you will shy away from things that have a certain level of salt because they'll taste even more sot.

I can answer this be because I've had a lot of emails I want to apologize to the people. We kind of turn on those up at this. It turns out there are people who have like real physical problems with salt. They have to It's not like I should have less, so it's if I have too much, I will be in physical and this is magical for them. It's like I want to like as the show goes on, as we approach the end, anything I really mess up,

Yeah, it's not just like a diet thing too, Right, It's like some people have irritation, inflammation or I don't know if there's a salt allergy in the world, but right, hypertension. So you want hypertensions a diet based thing that I'm considering as an issue. Right, Like for healthy reasons, you still want to be able to taste salty foods. It's not about making something taste so salty that you will avoid. It is more drinking bland things that will then taste salty.

Because of the use of this makes sense.

It was like you also get that you can kind of like dial in the experience like what you want. I think there's isn't that right that It's like you can go from like one to four and how salty.

I walked the periphery of the booth the whole time because I couldn't get inside. What was the other saliva based Yeah, let's find things you could spit on. Yeah, there were two.

We call it the thing.

Yeah, I uh here we are giggling about it.

But it is weird.

It is this is there are two devices. One is called the cordesans and the other is called hormometer. We're not fans of the Yeah, her hormometer like hormone meter. That's just a really funny it's a great portmanteau. I think hormometer is slightly further along in my opinion of the process. Basically, these are at home tests that you can use your saliva, that you can use on your saliva and they'll tell you how, much like cortisols in your kay.

So I think the problem is the labeling, because everything you've described is wonderful exactly. Also, if not be described as saliva base.

Well that was to me the way it came off, and.

Saliva based like some.

Faint their nose tasting notes.

Interesting.

Interesting. I like it because, like I'm really into like, uh, getting data about yourself, right, But I don't want blood testing all the time. I don't believe in the photos scanning of your face to tell your face age. I want you to actually use I guess bodily fluids to know what is up with me. And this seems smart, right, Like it's non invasive, it's an easy way, and there are so many ways that we can avoid going to the doctor. I guess it's not like going to a

So what would those be just just for the cortisol.

Yeah, cortisol is distress hormones, so the levels of cortisol are high or in higher stress. And then progesterone is something that people can use to track I guess fertility related things or cycle related or there's So I'm not velvers enough in the science here to tell you what else progester wants about.

That makes all of us and sadly we have to come to the end of this part of the show, ed where can people find you?

The tech bubble, dot substat, dot com, this machine Kills and Big black Jack of beIN on Twitter and blue Sky Shehlon where.

Can people find you?

I think I'll still be on the meta apps for a bit so Sherlyn Instagram, c h e r O r n n s t h e r A.

M uh defector dot com, The Distraction Podcast It's Christmas Town Podcast, and David Jroth dot b s k y dot Social.

Though I realized many of you PLoP my end, and indeed when you hear I'm hurt, you cheer and laugh and squeal and a wink. Nevertheless, if you don't want to cause me misery, you'll follow the following ads with your complete undivided attention. And we're back, and we're just talking about the fact that we each of us has two or three drinks at this point. We're not all right, it's not to destruction. It's just a little bit is

Allow me to introduce myself. Okay, So I'm Phil Broddon. I'm a health physicist, which is a radiation safety professional. I'm also a laser safety officer. So I take care of the full electro magnetic spectrum of radiation. I also am the weird shit guy and Phil Andrew Bartender.

Phil is here at CEES showing the laser mask that he made that people can He's not FDA approving.

I don't know that product. So you have seen that? No, have you seen the laser bra as well?

No?

That's that?

Really? Is that real?

That is real?

What does it do?

What are you talking about? You haven't been on the floor.

No, this wasn't on the floor. This is just why the internet exists for sons.

So Phil is someone I torture. Yes, we've been friends for fifteen years. Sorry, I also missed something out. Mister ed on Giso Junior is to.

My right, wonderful Hello, and I'm now he's said, yeah, so she calling me?

You haven't a laugh?

You have? You're taking a pitch mate, mister.

Cockles and searching my head? Can I do any accidents?

Try it out?

Bean?

Oh one time I did have an English breakfast and I felt like I was gonna die.

Yeah, that's just how it feels to be British.

Okay, back to all of your British levels maxed out.

Yeah, the British Saliveeian what.

Let them don't let them win?

Oh god, oh boy, there's so many directions. But back to philm So, why does this show frustrate you? So we've gone over the fire Marshal aspect, but just the general milieu of CES does appear to torture you.

So so a lot of what vendors are coming to CES with are not despite the fact that it says consumer Electronics show, many of the things are not aimed for consumers, never meant for consumers, or these are not products that are actually on the market, not going to get to the market. And it's terrifying how many people who have come on the show have been talking to me separately at the bar have said that they've met people at the stalls who asked them, so, what do you think our products should do?

No, that's not what you do.

If you have a product you're going to sell to someone, you really better know what it does so it can be sold legally safely, well so.

That it could do it.

Oh well there's that too.

Is that part the again asking an ignorant question? Okay, you what days in? You need to stop leading in with the item' not so I don't know a lot about c I mean I know something about like what

Well, after this, we're going to drive out west to a little place I like to call Palo Alto, a whole world that is built on stuff.

Yeah, the prototype, Well, yeah, it's like pizza.

Alonso just madeen off for a three year deal to the Mets, which is news I'm giving to David allowed to do that. Yeah, Like it's much like that, like what will you do pizza? And that is actually a good question for the Mets at this point. But nevertheless, to feel that one if you want, please please have them some stuff. Handle the Mets real quick.

Couldn't hurt.

No.

The Alonzo thing, I as sentimentally as a Mets fan, I hope he returns. I think he's declining. The Mets seem to think he's declining. He if he's making offers to them, maybe he thinks he's declining, but whatever, he seems very happy to be on the Mets. And I think that that is rare enough that I hope he stays. That's a completely straight faced.

For listeners who don't know what are the Mets.

The Mets are so they're one of the that's a great question.

That's such a me thing to say. Thank you. Obviously you haven't been down to the Eureka level. They are as a it's an AI enabled.

The mens, a private equity firm owned by a billionaire that ostensibly sells baseball related services. They only recently updated in terms of services to allow for baseball related success with the acquisition of a company called Kwan Soto up there.

They're on a subscription model, like a lot of these guys, you got to keep paying if you want them to move.

We're not going to talk about the Nation League East.

Yeah, I just realized we have gone fully into the Mets, so we need to That was beautiful, man. I am so sorry, but Phil putting the fire marshal stuff aside, what is it with lasers and these people like, what is it? Why do They love to bring up lasers so much like, what do you think it is?

Okay? So this would be several decades of career experience and just watching people and what they do. There's something in the human psyche that gets very excited about whatever thing there is in the world. What if I put a laser on it, right that will make it better? Or alternatively, this thing that already does the thing it normally does, would a laser make it do it better?

So do they know what a laser is?

Also often not great keep It is a laser light amplification by a simulated emission of radiation.

I didn't know it's an acronym.

It is I just like scuba and I didn't realize it was an acronym until you asked that question. Yea, I have an IQ of seven.

But the the more exciting thing and the reason why I get excited about it and products that happen, is how we regulate lasers in the United States of America. This is your important asterisk that goes in the post of These rules and regulations only apply in the United States of America. In your jurisdiction, they may be different. When lasers became a thing that weren't just stuff nerds

Know, yes, well, I'm assuming for our purposes here the stuff that's downstairs. A lot of the places have, as you've pointed out, like they'll be like a little tagliner like this has not been shown to the FDA yet.

Or not approved by the FDA, or is being used under basically the Fundsis code of the regulation, when.

Even if you have a prototype on it, it has not been released into commerce.

Is that correct?

Correct?

Okay, So commerce's specific meaning is you have a excuse me, laser product that you have made more than one of, and or is being used somewhere other than the place where it was initially built, and or by someone who was not the person who originally built it, which means, if you listen to those three statements, at no point does money have to exchange hands.

So they only have to build two.

The moment you hit two, you have made a laser product.

Versus people reading this as commerce meaning it's on Amazon.

Which is what most people think it means.

Sweet.

That's how the regulation covers it to try to cover tricks like people being oh, well, just you're a friend, I'll make you a second one of these setups, and I'll ship everything that I just did over to you at your other laboratory. You have no idea how the very specific quirk of I have duct tape sitting right here on the setup to protect that beam from going out that will blind me. Also, it takes so very little laser power to actually be blind.

But also that feels like a valuable point to this, which is just because they've made too doesn't mean they've made two safe ones. Like if there are little workarounds, like when you release something under these regulations you're discussing, I imagine you probably want to think of a more rigorous housing than tape.

Correct. That's when I mentioned the Federal Laser Project Performance Standard aka the FLIPS. It specifies the components that your laser should have to be a legal laser product that could be sold into commerce. Right, They're not just you have to be I safe levels of power, which has defined as less than one milliwatt per squares centimeter on the retina. It also has things like you have interlocks so that if you pop open the housing, it turns off or it drops a shutter.

And these are things that people don't classically put in the first version not.

Classically no good.

Also other things like there's indicator lights, there's switches, there's key interlocks, all the things that sound like function buttons. Yeah, things that vanish from the design of products the moment you catch Apple disease and decide that every single product should be a smooth tablet of silicon that you wave your hands at and they do magic rather than what is my product doing.

My god slash Steve jobs intended.

So how does this manifest into problems at cees.

Well, first you have handed products, often to sales people on the floor to go set up and talk about and try to make.

A say well, most certainly not the engineers who built it.

All laser safety offices correct.

The other thing is bringing a laser onto the floor, and this take us back to the fire marshal chat. That constitutes one of the hazards you actually have to let the CTA know about so they can tell the fire marshals because that changes the occupancy of the room. Also, they have a safety personnel they call to come evaluate setups. So if you say you're bringing a laser to the floor,

Is not great.

Yeah, but I want to see the product.

You won't see at all.

That's disturbing. And that's where that's the hand of a big brother in a lot of ways, trying to keep you from being blinded by a laser.

Big vision.

You're a hotel.

Does it move fast, blind quick?

Yes, that's so.

But I just want to actually, here's a really good thing for the listeners. What are the consequences of not following these things. What do these products do to you as a person in the event these regulations and they'll followed.

Blinding fires?

And is that bad?

Yeah?

A fair question.

It is a good question. I'm glad that we have a balanced group hair.

So just a quick rundown. If you go look at your product that has a laser in it, odds on favor you have one, it's probably a printer in your home. If you go look on it, there will be a little yellow sticker on the box. That's box that says Class one laser device.

Right.

That means it is safe for use under any viewing conditions. You have no access to a hazardous laser.

You don't need eye protection or anything like that.

You do not because the housing that's in there will protect you. Mind you, most laser printers are actually Class four lasers, which are absolutely blinding and capable of setting fires if you took all of the housing that makes the printer off of it. Okay, so there is a much more powerful laser that is dangerous to you hiding

Is saluting. I'm saluting right. Thank you, Thank you everyone, Thank you everyone.

If you go buy a laser OEM laser product and integrate it into your system because you thought this this stuff is great. All it needs is a laser.

Yeah.

The moment you add a laser to it, you just turned the thing you made into a laser product. A finished one is subject to all of those rules like enclosures, light housings, interlocks. You just became a laser manufacturer and you didn't want to be and at that point supporting entrepreneurs with that.

But also I agree with Edward's question, it doesn't feel weird. This is like the it's like a three D printery type scenario where there's like it seems like the three D printers, but like the distance between reach and grasp here is like actually a matter of life and death.

Trusted with being able to do stuff like that now.

And that's that's actually was a very good point, which is what feel is describing is how easy it is to do this insane shit.

Very and to bring it back to the FDA, their control point is releasing a product into commerce, after which the FDA doesn't really have control of it anymore because it's now in the only other thing that a laser manufacturer is required to do, as far as the FDA is concerned, is maintain a log of injuries associated with their product.

And recall to do that with the podcast.

Yeah, several listeners are to my heart were recalling bits recalling bit's our entire systems.

WE and we after close examination, we've realized that bit number seventy six seeding about the woo problematic.

Could cause emotion injury to listeners.

So film on the floor over the years. What are the manifestations specifically of this thing? What are the things that you have seen and heard of that you can terrorize my good friends mister Roth and mister Anguso with.

So let's go back to the laser bra Okay please, this was actually a club item where the idea was you could be your own laser light show. Not just you put out the laser emitting product to go with the music, but it will actually react to your dancing and will change the out the brightness changed the color they dances. Though, if it's an E because lasers make everything better. Also, LED also can stand for laser.

They don't sense things, they do things.

They can also emit right, But.

Are you saying that they use lasers to emit light?

Yes, on the fucking brock, dozens of them.

We have lights.

No, but they could be lasers to shine in very visible beams across the entire world.

Okay, I'm not the lazy set lazy Jesus.

Does slip of the tongue happens constantly.

Laser safety expert here, But I think the idea of shooting a bunch of lasers out of one's breasts where people might be looking it's fun, it may be, but it also might fun and flirty, a great look for the season thirty flirty and thriving. That feels dangerous.

You have a lot of very pain looks on your faces.

At the very end, I feel no pain like the sohon it seems whether it would be worth it.

You.

Literally risking at all risk risking.

To look at.

Party?

Could I go to?

It'd be like that was fine?

Yeah, I go bind it. I pretty much got what it's like desperate to Actually.

There's also totally been the laser butt plug that showed up at but same thing dropping traun much.

Like thefacturers actually.

Effectively, but the one that was most relevant that actually did show up at ce S, and it has shown up dozens of times on hacker News and other interesting maker websites. Someone who had made a laser based bong. Now this is a problem because again you've taken a concept of a totally workable product that already exists. Bongs. We have known how these work for very long.

And we have made them so that people who may be under the influence can offer.

Even offer to maybe not safely with the torch, but you know so that certain kind of mind looks at and goes, man, I can make that so much better with a laser. And okay, the problem is lasers are not necessarily hot burning enough to actually properly combust your weed to then inhale. Incomplete combustion is a problem because okay, now, what did I break down on my plant material too? Oh, it's every organic molecule you possibly could break it down to,

Your reefer becomes something even more dangerous. But you don't even really get the enjoyment.

That I am genuinely asking, what is the consequences of the castinogens? No dumb question. You just said the word carsonogen, But explain please.

Cancer causing agents thanks, some of which them are just straight up toxic, not just carcinogen.

Do you not get high at least you might.

So.

Just to be clear, though, when you break away all this stuff, but.

You're also part of the show, you are you're also effectively wasting weed.

You're not completely Okay, now I'm taking this very seriously, not that I ever have it. But the specific thing I'm saying here though, is so the laser is not even efficient as a heating It's not.

A good answer for it. It's just cool I use the laser.

Do you not regularly burn castinogens? When you do? Like weed that you smoke and bongb for example, you.

Get often get full combustion. The goal is to get.

Full, just to get the th Does that get the costagens out?

Don't make them in the first place.

Okay, So the idea of using a laser in this case creates new problems that makes weed less healthy.

Again, It's time for another brand new acronym for you, jacks Laser generated airborne contaminants, which is something we regulate under.

Why do lasers create those?

So anytime you have a laser interacting with material, they start burning things off of it. Sorry, if it has enough power to start burning things off it, it will make fumes, It will do micromachining of surfaces, and you start getting nanoscale particulates, which are very exciting, very they sounds cool, but no, so normally you put on a respirator to protect yourself from particulars when you're doing woodwork and savage, which you already mentioned the laser cutters and

Christ and see this is the thing, this is I'm so happy you put this down. It has been like eight years of doing this, we've never actually got you to run down where your actual expertise lies here. And it's wonderful to do. No, I fucking love it. It's wonderful. The show. It's been amazing. But the thing is, it's like a classic CS style problem where it's like, ah, have we got the solution to something, but you have so many more problems yeah, we we may have created

Did you come up?

Did we? Can you tell us? If we what do you think? Can you buy this and then give us an idea?

Right?

That's the bit that I kept, ye because a lot of it is like the especially with you know, like the idea of a laser bomb, like this is it's a worse way to address a problem that has been pretty comprehensively.

Solved, but it's so.

Absolutely buy it. Yeah, that's somebody's like, well, this is like maybe this is cool enough that we could sell it, even if it's delivering like just of not even twenty five percent of the experience, Like you're getting all the carcinogens and the eggs.

I don't know what it feels like when I was in high school and we were out of weed and our plug was out of town, and so we'd scrape our bulls to get to smoke out of some PVC pipe.

You know, like, Okay, I was maxing out the dirt bag.

I was going to say, you were in good shape there right up until you said PVC.

I mean, yeah, I'm trying I'm trying to maximize the unhealthy, horrible, uh damaging carcinogenic And.

There you go, you know, British culture.

Just so to correct you though, David, it's not you get all of the caryscinogens that were there, it's you made some that weren't there in the first place.

Yes, my bad problem for your solution.

This is like the thing we're like, I don't I guess this is like not a novel observation, but they like the waves, which like a commercial consideration, just the most basic commercial consideration, like can I sell this? Can I make this thing and bring it to market? That is the highest hurdle for any of these podcasts. The technological stuff, the magic, the shit that you need like advanced degrees to be able to do doesn't often seem

Then the film destroying ones, the way they fail both yes, where they just like, well, do we have a product that people want? No? Do we have a product that works?

Absolutely?

However, we do have a name we have science, and we technically do have science. That's one thing you'll wokeness can take away film. They do have science, get them. And now the problem is do they understand the science? And that's the big one. And this is the thing I think.

Rather they understand their specific incredibly narrow niche and have never picked their head up. Who look and acknowledge there are other humans around them?

Why would they do that unless they can do Some of them are customers, Okay, consumer, Oh sorry, you were not there to be happy, you're there to consume. And this is CS baby, It's just a series of people from the top of the people who actually release things, all the way down to the people releasing the laser bump.

The other thing for CS is sorry they move in fads. Well, I said, there's something in the human spirit that says you just got to attach lasers to things. Not according to the people have gone to the floor. Not this year. People were not excited to stable lasers onto stuff, but in past years absolutely it's what they took. And that's that first time we visited see it well together to see us and twenty fifteen I actually did go to the floor.

Twenty eleven first time we went together year was that first time we went to the No, I wasn't with you nicely where we met in the Californian right, But I.

Didn't get to make dj wukid you No, you left me.

It's one of my cool friends.

I wid.

I mean a guyiled like a year ago.

But the the first time we were here together and I went to the floor. In twenty fifteen, there was a whole bunch of post disaster Fukushima tech where people were developing so many new apps for your phone for integration into the radiation monitoring networks. There was no radiation monitoring network right into the Well we're gonna have some some detectors that you can log into. Really, would you like to buy some detectors, by the way.

To add to the inevitable future for the full network that you want, of course will exist, or a detector you.

Can plug into your phone. No, your phone doesn't generate enough voltage to actually run that detector to do it. There was a whole lot of radiation related I am terrified of a Fukushima in my backyard. Across the entire Pacific. Tech that got rolled out which vanished the following year, and there's cycles.

We were talking about this this morning too, and I think the thing that was kind of interesting about what you said about that too was that and this again. You know, I kept sort of having this feeling down there you were describing as basically, you know, people wanted this spectrometer or whatever the term is, got it?

Is it good?

I saw Craig Magine's Chernobyl mini series and I took copious notes during it, so I know a lot.

I love that.

I thought it was good actually, but if people expected me to hate it, I had like a T shirt on that seemed to the way.

Yeah, Chernobyl day baby right here.

Really April twenty fifth, nine eighty six. I think the time zones work out with Russia.

Two disasters the same, We're alive for the last Mets World Series one.

That's beautiful.

I want to three disasters.

Collapse of multipleties anyway, But what you were saying about this is that like all of these things were you know, not just flawed in the ways that that you described, but they were like successful products in so far as they would generate a number with a decimal point in it that you could then look at and be like, oh, that seems high or that seems low and fine as we but as in the mini series.

But I think just in general, like this was the point that you made.

Is generating a number for somebody you know, by way of an app or by way of you know, some sort of device that you know it's chargeable via USBC or something, is not the same thing as informing them of anything. It's just producing a number. It like it's an outcome.

But that's that it was.

I hope every time someone comes to I have this new detector, is this good fill? Or is this worth the money? I? Okay, you have to know how. You have to ask the questions. What are you trying to detect? Does the detector actually detect that? Do you know how to use it? And a lot of the consumer products in spaces like this related to environmental health and safety emergency response no heal. Most people buying stuff I Amazon have no idea how to fucking use it, much less

As we wrap up more things to upset, you'll go more tomorrow, I think. So you can just buy illegal shit on Amazon just to wrap us.

Up as I as I regularly send you, it is the largest gray or black market in America. There was there was a really sad time. The other show I come to Las Vegas.

To go to is Defcon and COVID Central.

I describe coming to CEES as a chance to see the things I'm going to have to contend with when cheap professors buy stuff and bring it to me. Going to def Con I describe as a vacation to other people's problems, because INFOSEC problems are analogous to radiation and laser safety ones, but not actually mine to need to fix, but the stuff I can learn. One time I was there, I caught three senior Amazon on engineers at a bar and I was aimed at them by a friend who said,

Really like yes you on our card or something.

To which to their credit, thank you. To their credit, they looked ashamed at their shoes and said to me, I could fix this with a code push at midnight if anyone with the very heavily implied a certain bald owner cared professor very nasty, but worse, having shared the

Would happen if we gave gun.

I was gonna I I was gonna say.

Anything that it is about to say.

Is not reflective.

It's it's the It's ed not the other d yet yet, Edward Gaso, Genie.

Some of you who cannot tell the difference between our voices because we sound.

So fucking.

I'm seeing double.

Yes.

In a way, we are the same, you know, Britain, Kenya, what's you know?

We are connected, but it is also wonderful and I'm so happy. Anyway, please stop saying the thing that is legally actionable, if you.

Can legally actionable, because I'm asking, I'm actually asking a really good What I'm asking is what would things look like if regulatory agencies actually had the ability to enforce and not just to like litigate, you know, like what you know, I think one example just being, you know, if they were able to enforce in the way that ANYDA for a DA might when it comes to illegal harmful goods and services proliferating in an open air black market like this.

So that was a funny question you asked me the other other day of do I think any government agencies are working well? And I had to take a long, sad pause and go the problem is, I know how they're supposed to work. I also know how they are working. The DA and atf don't work nearly as well.

We would like them too, but I feel like they're much more robustly funded. There's nothing else than like the Federal Trade Commission is like six guys in an office with a week in the ceiling.

Like if we gave I'm sure if we gave like Lena Khan and her advisors, you know, like a ruger, like they like, yeah, we could get something. Actually, the.

People that we would be most excited to have work to do this in association with the FDA, because the FDA, they do not. They don't get guns. They review things to see if it's safe for people to use and consume. The intradiction point is the United States Postal Inspection Service, which are the mail cops. Shout out, Shout out to the mail cops and the comp staff.

They are actual, Like, please do not fuck with them. What's their convictions?

Like, yeah, that's just the rest in packages.

Yeah, but at padded envelope.

But again there's not many people have meant many of them to do intradiction and investigation. Similarly, for Customs, which had got stapled together to Customs and Border Patrol under the Department of Hollowed Security when it was an independent agency, they inspected everything. They were looking for illegally transported crew. They were looking for illegal cloth because specific weaves and

So on that note, I'm afraid we have to come to the end of this ninety plus minutes show jrothwackon people find you.

Uh defector dot com. It's the website I do a podcast there. That's the distraction.

I'm on Blue Sky. David j Roth is the handle there, and that is all I have to say for that, Miss Broughton.

So you can find me on Blue Sky at at fun Ranium. You can find me on my blog Funderanium Labs dot com. If you would like to learn more about me being angry about laser products, go to the adventure and Radiation part and of the blog or reference.

Ran you'll tell them about your coffee product.

Yeah, go on.

The other thing I do is I make a concentrated coffee called Black Blood of the Earth. That is what I had to make in order to drink coffee again without adding sugar and cream to it.

We're gonna talk more about this tomorrow.

Rocks. It doesn't.

It's actual hearted endorsement how Phil and I met.

And by the way, tomorrow's episode which I'm about to talk cop and we'll talk about more later, he's going to involve Phil a lot in talking about that. Mister Anguso Junior.

Those debating whether the doing Nelson Mandela accents.

I've been thinking about it a week better don't find out you must go to the tech Yeah, that's what I was afraid of.

Dot com. Uh uh, that's my newsletter, my podcast that this machine kills. And I'm on Twitter and Blue Sky at Big Black Jacobin and.

You can catch me outside. How about that. That's why I wrote down in my notes there. I'm at Zetron. You have been so generous with your time. Thank you for listening. I am so grateful and love all of you, and will say that a few more times as we go. We're approaching the first episode. At the end of the first episode of the last day of CS proper, you will have another one after this. I have been joined by so many wonderful people. I want to thank everyone he has been on so far. This has been an

Afy, you need to update it. I've done like ten and a half flipping hours of audio on this.

What more could you want from me? I'm online. You can email me. I always email you back. Jesus Christ, I'm just kidding.

I adore you, sir, Let's get you home.

Okay, I am Venetian Hotel room. This is where I live.

Let's get you a drink.

Thank you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song is Matasowski. You can check out more of his music and audio projects at Matasowski dot com, M A T T O S O W s ki dot com. You can email me at easy at Better offline dot com or visit Better Offline dot com to find more podcast links and of course,

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