I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal. Today. We have another bonus episode.
Now that season five is over, I wanted to get the whole team together, our producers, our editors, to talk about how the season came to be and all of the moments that stuck with us along the way.
Here's our conversation. Hi everybody.
Hi.
Hi.
We did this last year where after we released season four, we got together and talked about all of our favorite moments, what it was like producing the season, and I thought that it would be kind of fun to do it again. Maybe where we can start is going around and everyone introduced themselves and tell a little bit about how you worked on the show.
Yeah.
Sure, Hi.
I'm Caitlin Golden and I helped to produce this season.
Hi.
I am Kerrie Hartman, also a producer.
I'm monikle Boord. I'm the story editor on the last two seasons of Betrayal.
Mettl Vickiu I am a sound engineer on Betrayal.
And I'm Tanner Robbins. I am one of the audio editors.
I think a really great place to start is how we found the story in the first place.
I think this question goes to Caitlin.
Can you tell us a little bit about how this season and how Saskia's story came to be.
Yeah. I started at Glass about two years ago as an associate producer when Carrie and Moe were running production on Betrayal, and one of my big jobs was going through the email inbox where people you know, write in with their thoughts about the show, but also kind of most importantly, they're writing with their own stories of Betrayal. So Saskia, she sent an email September twenty twenty four, which is the same month that Giselle Pelico went to trial for the rape case of her husband.
I actually pulled up.
Her initial email. I want to read it.
It's pretty short. She said.
Hello, I live in Maryland and I was married to hold for It, the man of my dreams. Everyone thought he was smart and kind and successful. Ended up he was doing horrible things to me while I was unconscious, night after night, and broadcasting this to strangers on a widespread scale, in between being the perfect husband, father and stepfather. Things only got worse when I found out what he
was doing and we went through a legal battle. Quote raping your wife end quote Apparently was not a crime in Maryland, so we had to have police contact tech experts in these camming websites to get the footage for Court. I would really like to tell my story. I can so relate to these women that I am watching on your show. Let me know if someone can contact me. I think it would be cathartic for me. Heart emoji,
thank you, Saskia. So yeah, it's taken a year and a half to get here where the story's officially out and the season's over, but it's been a real team effort, dur. I'm curious when you go back to the moment that you were like, this needs to be a season as opposed to a single episode. Is there something that stands out for you, a scene in your mind where you first really remember connecting to the story.
I think for me, the fact that he could watch this person spiral, wake up with black eyes, wake up on the bathroom floor, feel like she is going crazy, feel like she is just now destined to walk the same path as her father who struggled with mental health, and to know that you were doing something in the dark that could contribute to that is just.
So cruel to me.
That's why I thought this was a really good season, like the two things that were happening light a day and in the darkness.
One thing that we've learned throughout the five seasons of Betrayal is that perpetrators like Mike, they're actors. They're acting out the part of a loving husband or a great step father, but they're really actors, and once you accept and understand that, it's easier to see that all of it it's like a giant fraud.
Yeah.
The other aspect of the story that I just was like, from an emotional point of view, I think I've always really wanted to dismantle the idea of the perfect victim because I feel like we just really default to this understanding of righteous rape that the only person that's worthy of saying I had this crime of rape done to me is this pristine victim that was plucked off the
street and this happened. Zaskia's story kind of defies that archetype, but it still doesn't change what happened to her, and so it allowed us to really examine that myth in a really big way, not just through the criminal.
Trial, but really the divorce trial.
So for that reason, I feel like That's why I really wanted to make this season totally what about you.
I remember in that initial phone call, she's telling the story and then all of a sudden, she gets to the point in her story where he only gets eighteen months in jail, and she says, this was completely legal in my state, and I was like, wait, what, how in the world.
I think that was the thing that surprised me and shocked me the most this season was the fact that that law was on the books at the time. Was just it really hit me a little bit because I don't understand how that could even be.
Tanner, you knew nothing going into the season about the story and the creative You're literally getting scripts from Caitlin and learning as you go.
Yeah, I usually get the first draft of the episode when it's ready to go into the edit.
Can you tell me what it was like working on this season, what moment most surprised you, and what do you feel like was the most impactful.
What shocked me maybe the most in the story was a quote from the perpetrator, Mike. I think it was during the divorce trial that he didn't believe in his heart that he raped her. Mike is having sex with his unconscious wife. What did he think that he was doing if he was not raping her, what did he think that was? That was what was most shocking to me, even after admitting to committing this crime. Then go to a different court and say the exact opposite.
There is an entitlement there that exists in our society. Whether or not he knew what the laws were in Maryland, he already felt entitled to her body in a way however he wanted it. And then there are laws that exist in the.
State in which he lives with his.
Wife that in Bolden and validate that entitlement. Those two things I think have been interconnected and working for each other since the creation of this country.
That was kind of hand in hand to The most impactful thing is that this case and other cases that have come on recently have helped change these laws, and these laws are changing, and I think it's good to see that lawmakers at least are waking up to some of this.
We often talk about amends. What does amends really look like? Once you've understood that you've done something wrong and you deeply hurt somebody, you're operating from a place of harm reduction. What can I do to repair, do less harm and own up to my mistakes? And when you look at how things played out in the divorce, someone who understands that they've done something wrong understands the impact of their behavior and actions towards another person would say, you know what,
no fault divorce. Let me make this really easy for you. Let me do as little harm in this process to Saskia.
That would be the right thing to do. He did not do that.
As much as it is to tell Sasti's story, we are in a way telling the Mike Levin good story of what he did to his wife.
And I'm a human being.
I think about the fact that he's trying to rebuild, but I also think about the fact of, like, what has this person done to restore and help support Saskia.
This is something Kerry and I have been talking about. So Carrie had produced seasons one through four, and when this season came around, Carrie actually stepped out to produce another show at Glass Burden of Guilt and that is a redemption arc story. People should go listen to it. The perpetrator genuinely puts in the work to make amends
for something hateous that he did in his past. And there's something Karrien, I've been talking about here with season five of Betrayal with Oskia story, because like, we don't set out to demonize these perpetrators. We set out to report the story. Survivors come to us, right to us,
and we work with them. But if there was genuinely an effort that Mike leven Good had made to acknowledge the harm he had done to make amends, you know, and he did plead guilty, like he had the opportunity to use that to make a statement to her to not put her through the divorce trial she did, and like you were saying, Andrea, like he did not take those opportunities. And so we can't report a redemption arc because it isn't there, and it's disappointing.
Honestly, I think the thing that makes this season different in terms of that amends and accountability piece is that we're talking about a perpetrator who has gone on to make an entire career off of his criminal past. And to me, the most shocking take of the entire season comes at the end of episode nine, where you hear Trey recounting the phone call with Mike Levinngood and I was in the room for that call, so I remember
it very well. And Trey gets on the line tells Mike that we want to tell this story about his business and about his relationship with Saska Inwood, And the tone in Mike's voice was just so shocking, like you could tell he really did not see the connection between what he did to Saskia and what he is doing in his business now. It's like he has had to sever something in his mind in order to move forward with his life, and that's a privilege that Saskia will never be afforded.
I'm so curious. This goes to the editors. What is your favorite episode of the season and why.
The courtroom the criminal trial. Maybe it's just because I love tape in the field. It's one thing to hear somebody tell their story. It's another thing to hear it happening in real time and hearing the judge see through Mike's liies. You know, when you hear defense attorneys and witnesses saying all these things that you know are not true or just being spun in this way, and then to hear the person with the power see through it and make the right decision. It's just so satisfying.
Truthfully, I don't have a favorite episode, but I do second a lot of what you said, Danner. It's always refreshing whenever a judge takes a minute to reprimand somebody who just thinks that he's flying pretty it feels like a good moment. Whenever you get to hear a judge say, actually, you're completely wrong. That was definitely impactful for me too.
Yeah, And sometimes you can have all the evidence, the videos, the photos, and it's still it may not be enough.
But in this case, the judge really saw. And I'm so grateful, Carrie. I was going to ask you, you know, having.
Worked on this show in every iteration of it, having worked with so many different subjects, what to you really resonated this season.
I think we knew even before the Giselle Pelico story came out this kind of crime is a trend. It's underreported, and it's probably underreported because people are too shamefilled to report it.
Yeah, and it's under prosecuted.
I really feel good when we are bringing things to the surface that might be uncomfortable or even unrealized by a good portion of the public. Because you never know when one of our audience members might be wake up with the morning unsure of what happened the night before, or feeling odd, And it's just information an education that it's okay to question.
Totally, and I mean with the idea that this is a trend for me. One of the most impactful parts of this season was talking to all of these other women who had experienced this crime. We did also include these stories of Natalie, Ember and Stephanie, and watching the three of them in their progression and their healing journey has been really impactful too. I mean, Drey and I
talk all the time about Natalie in particular. She'd never heard of a story like her own until she heard Stephanie's episodes on Betrayal Weekly, and when I first got on the phone with her, she was incredibly nervous, and over the course of many, many months, we had lots of conversations back and forth about do you want to tell your story now, is later down the line a better time? What level of anonymity do we want to use?
She eventually felt comfortable, and when we had that round table conversation with all of these other survivors, it was like a different woman was in that room, like or hope as a show is always that the people that we're working with we are able to impact their lives in some little way, that by helping them tell their story, we are helping them on their healing journey. But I think that was one of the first times where I, as someone who's really new to this field, saw right before my eyes.
Like this is someone who's transformed.
There was just a brightness in her face that made me incredibly emotional.
I mean, that's the thing is realizing that you're not alone.
I felt that way when I was listening to the bonus episode with.
The case updates.
Yeah, and I honestly got choked up listening to Stephanie at the very end spoilers if anyone hasn't listened to that bonus episode, it's an update on.
Mber, Natalie and Stephanie.
And when Carrie and I first talked to Stephanie, she was wearing baggy clothes, she chopped off all of her hair, she couldn't even look in the mirror, and she is just now reclaiming her body and that's the work that she's done. But to see that happen from meeting her two years ago. It's astonishing to see what she's done in the work that she's put in and how she came out on the other side.
It's cool.
It's really cool when people ask, which they often do. Oh, it must be so hard to work on stories like this. The antidote for me is really getting to see the healing and the connections and the progress the survivors are making, and to see that the telling of their story was helpful and that is actually more impactful for me in the end than the worst part of their story.
That we hear.
Well, thank you all for your hard work this season. It was a difficult season to produce. It was an emotional one to produce, and you know, we deal with really tough subject matter. But I'm really proud of the season and I'm proud of everyone's work on it, and so thank you. For resources on sexual violence, visit RAIN dot org slash betrayal. That's our ai n N dot org slash betrayal. You can also get free confidential twenty
four seven support through Rain's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text Hope to six four six seven three or call one eight hundred sixty five six Hope you are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your story, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That is Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. Or follow us on Instagram at
betrayal Pod. To access additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our substack at Betrayal dot substack dot com.
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Betrayal is the.
Production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Caitlin Golden. Our supervising producer is Kerrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique le Board. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablo. Production management by Kristin Melciri.
Additional support by Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins, with additional editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends and family, and special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by Mob Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts