Survivors’ Discussion Continued | BONUS | Saskia’s Story

I'm Andrea Gunning and this is a bonus episode of Betrayal. For this bonus episode, we'd like to share more excerpts from the survivors group discussion. Because of these women, Ember, Natalie, Stephanie, and Saskia had so much more to say than we could fit in one episode. This discussion was moderated by a professional.

Having conversations with survivors is really near and dear to not just my heart, but to Rain's heart.

Megan Cutter is the chief of Victim Services at RAIN, the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network. RAIN has been working with us throughout season five.

Healing is not a linear journey. It's not a straight line. So I want to talk about that concept with all of you and would love to get a sense of, like how do you to find healing for you? And I think this can be a conversation of like how this feels, how's this show up? So let's talk about healing.

I think that's the hard part.

There's no like arrival.

That's Ember. It's been two decades since she found out her then fiance was drugging and raping her.

If you had asked me twenty years ago, I would have been like, yeah, by twenty years in, I would be all better. I'm not even think about this anymore. I wish it was something where we could just flip the switch and never think about it again. My capacity has changed, though, my ability to not judge myself. That was a huge thing that I had to get over. Was like, why am I not better? So I went internal with a lot of it for a very long time.

Then another survivor, Natalie, jumped in.

Like you Embert, I'm going on twelve years.

That's how long it's been since Natalie found images on her son's iPad of her husband assaulting her.

I remember there being a time years ago where I'm like, no, I'm fine, Like I could totally handle this. I can deal with it. I'll just keep this inside and shove it in a little box and it's fine. And no it's not, because days would pop up and I'm like, ugh, I'm really not fine.

I think you know, we all share this common feeling that I don't know how to fix my life after it's completely blown up like this.

That's Stephanie. She shared her story in season one of Betrayal Weekly. After twenty three years of marriage, she found intimate photos of herself on her husband's laptop.

But it was very empowering for me to share my story through the Betrayal podcast, And the best part of what came out of that is that the podcast producers connected me with Saskia, who is my absolute soul sister.

Back when we first met Saskia, we immediately saw the parallels between her and Stephanie's stories, so we connected them via email. Email threads eventually turned into long phone calls, which gave way to a deep friendship. Stephanie even flew out to visit Saskia and Marilyn last summer. They watched TV together, went on walks, and when one of them felt overcome with grief or anxiety, they didn't have to explain because they both understood, here's Saskia.

You know. To see how strong Stephanie was through this gave me more of the you know what I'm going to see that I can be a survivor, that I am a survivor, and that I can help other people with this. We can make sure that nobody else feels as alone as we did. I feel like I'm in really good.

Company, and now to have Natalie and Ember also to join this terrible sisterhood that no one wants to be a part.

Of is just really really powerful.

Like the other survivors, Saski's effort to rebuild her life is ongoing.

One thing that was so hard for me is that this was seven years of my life where I thought that I had a wonderful husband and a wonderful family, and I didn't know what to do with those seven years of memories. We had to not only deal with being raped, but also having our whole lives as we knew them fall apart. I wouldn't wish that anybody, but I think it allows us to kind of build back up and take some of our control back. But I think a necessary part is to gain more confidence, be

I think it's a matter of not selfishness, but self preservation. I have learned and I see that in you also, Saskia. We have finally figured out that we need to pryoritize ourselves, our feelings and taking care of ourselves and not just everybody else.

Right around the same time, Saska reached out to us Gizelle pellicoas story was gaining international attention. Gazelle is the woman in France whose husband drugged and raped her over the course of a decade and invited dozens of other men to do the same. Megan Cutter, the facilitator for Rain, brought up Gizelle's case with the group.

When you see stories in the news in the media. Over the last year or so, we've seen a lot of conversation about Gizelle Pellico and her story. What's the impact of seeing a story like Gizelle's in the media or hearing on the podcast a story similar to your own.

I felt like the Gizelle Pello Coast story has really important in bringing awareness to the whole world that there is such a thing as marital rape, marital sexual abuse.

That's Stephanie again.

Her country gave her the privilege of having her anonymity, but she still went forward to bring this abuse onto a national international spotlight, which was just amazing.

Here's ember I go on TikTok social media, Instagram, and I can come across just in my schooling, so many accounts of people talking about sexual abuse, and it's like, Okay, people are talking about this in the public square where that was not the case twenty years ago. But is it where it needs to be. No, let's not just put ourselves in the back as a culture and say, look at us, We've become so much better at this.

Then Natalie brought up another high profile sexual abuse case, one that's all polarizing public reaction.

When you said in the media, I remember Bill Cosby, and I was listening to that and just listening to commentary from people just being so angry and wanting to stand up for those victims and trying to educate people on how wrong it is.

Bill Cosby was America's dad, but in twenty fourteen and twenty fifteen, more than sixty women came forward accusing him of drugging and raping them. The victims were torn apart in the press and online, many were accused of making these allegations up for fame or financial gain.

I didn't realize at that time, but I feel exactly what those other victims or feeling and being labeled as that is just something shameful to Carrie. People give their opinions, and sometimes it would just be really hard, because you know, you just have to sit there and kind of take it.

We talk a lot at RAIN about the myth of the perfect victim.

We think a lot about this myth on betrayal too, how it contributes to some survivors being perceived as more sympathetic believable, while others are written off.

The perfect victim. They weren't drinking, they weren't using drugs, They remembered every single moment of their abuse, and they remembered it in order, and they went right to the police and they said, I need help right away. And this idea of what someone quote unquote should do when they experience sexual violence, which is not at all aligned with how trauma works in the brain, how abusers function like it's not real. And when someone doesn't match that idea,

When you look at like the perfect victim. I was not a partier. I wasn't out drinking regularly. I didn't have a fake ID, I never did drugs. Even with that, it was deemed a non credible witness by the first two police officers that I spoke to, and they're like, yeah, your testimony won't stand. You know, DA won't pick this up if I don't remember things in a linear way. It's so frustrating. I wasn't somebody of ill repute. It didn't make any difference in my case.

Then Saskia spoke. She knew firsthand what it meant to be held to that perfect victim standard. She lived through it in her divorce case with Mike.

I feel like he was given every grace, every oppera tunity to just shit on me, my mental health, my substance use and abuse. We've been so traumatized already to have to then put your life on display and talk about your vulnerabilities and defend them. I couldn't have expected the nightmare.

Saskia did conform to the perfect victim narrative in at least one way. She rushed to report Mike, her abuser, the moment she realized what was happening.

But I think back, and if I had my wits about me, maybe I would have chose more self preservation. Right. I had two stepdaughters, and as soon as I discover what happened, they were pulled from my lives and the lives of my kids. My kids had to see me falling to my knees. So I have guilt for some of the things that I did too. You know, I don't think that I'm better than anybody because I chose this path. We all have to give ourselves grace for our choices and what we had to do to survive.

I am sitting with what each of you have shared and talked about, and I think it's reminding me survivorship is not a monolith, right, And I imagine for people listening to this too, to hear that there are different ways to navigate this will hopefully make them feel like whatever way they're trying to stay safe is okay and is right and is valid.

My last question is, if there's a survivor listening to this, what was it that you wish for them?

My wish and desire for you is that you would know that you are loved, that you deserve safety and kindness and compassion exactly as you are right now.

I want any victim survivor of this to know that she did nothing to cause this, and the shame is one hundred percent on the perpetrator, and.

You're not alone.

Carrying that shame is really what kept me from a lot, and it really isn't yours secure, It's not ours to carry.

I think I would share that it's not what happens to you, it's what you do with that and how you respond to it. That shows the type of person that you are. And it's possible to have something so tragic happened to you and still have goodness and hope and not let anyone take that away from you.

For resources on sexual violence, visit RAIN dot org slash betrayal that's our ai n N dot org slash betrayal. You can also get free confidential twenty four seven support through Rain's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text hope to six four six seven three or call one eight hundred.

Sixty five six.

Hope you are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your story, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That is Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com, or follow us on Instagram at betrayal Pod. To access additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our substack at Betrayal dot substack dot com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our

Betrayal is the.

Production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Leah Jablo, with additional production by Caitlin Golden. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique le Board, also produced.

By Ben Fetterman.

Our associate producer is Olivia Hewitt, Production management by Kristin Melcurrie, additional support by Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins, with additional editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends and family, and special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. The roundtable discussion was led with the Hell of Rain, the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network.