Hi everyone, it's Andrea. This week, we're doing something a little different. My producer Monique and I spent last week at sea with Virgin Voyages, where we produced Betrayal's first ever live show. Stacy, Tyler and Michaela from Betrayal Season three joined us, as well as Caroline and her kids from season four.
If you listen to our show, you know that.
Stacy's husband, Justin pled guilty to sexual abuse of a minor, including his abuse of his step son Tyler, and in season four, Caroline's husband Joel was caught having sex in.
His police patrol car.
He had carried on multiple affairs during their marriage, including some that happened while he was on duty. Together, we had an incredible conversation about Survivor Center true Crime and what it's like to have your real life turned into a true crime podcast. It's an emotional and in depth conversation about the kind of work we do and what it means to the people who are at the center it.
We hope you enjoy.
Hi everyone, I'm Andrea Gunning. I'm the host and producer of Betrayal.
I'm Monique, I'm a producer on Betrayal. I'm going to be moderating tonight so that Andrea can really be in the conversation because she has poured her soul into this show, and she's also been a leader in the podcast industry bringing this show to TV, which we're on season three. A betrayal on Hulu.
Just came out last month. When I started this show in twenty nineteen, I didn't know if one person would listen, if two people would listen. I could have never imagined being on a cruise doing our first live show.
I know, it's really crazy for those of you that don't know what Betrayal is.
It's a project where we focus on families whose lives have been upended due to devastating betrayal, and we focus on the crime and the aftermath, but it's really a show about strength and resilience. Yeah, and so tonight we're going to focus on two families. The family from season three, which is Stacy Tyler and Mikaela's story, and the family from season four about Caroline Brega and her kids.
For a lot of the survivors we're going to bring out tonight, this is their first ever time talking about their story to a live audience, and It's a little strange to be on stage clapping and cheering for some of the worst things that have ever happened to someone. It can kind of feel like that, you know, true crime cruise. But we're really here to celebrate the survivors and the bravery and courage of these families to tell their stories, and that's what we're celebrating.
So, without further ado, let's all welcome Stacy, Tyler, and Mikayla.
Hey, y'all, how you doing.
How you feeling good? Good, amazing, A little nervous.
You know, Stacy, the documentary came out a month ago. It seems like a lot of people here are already familiar with your story, are listeners of Betrayal.
So I want to start with what it was like for.
You to see your I see.
Your emotional right now, what it was like to see your life played back on a true crime documentary.
I don't think it was something that I ever thought would happen. It was just a little different seeing it. I know, me and Tyler have had conversations like it wasn't our story, Like we were like, oh, what's gonna happen next? Like we didn't know, But yeah, there were some moments that were tough. I think when they went back to the good times or the good times that
we thought were they were a little hard. We were lucky to kind of sit through each other's interviews, so the things that we talked about were not new to us when the documentary come out because we got to sit and be a part of that with each other. So that was good. I think that helped us to kind of prepare for what was going to be on TV.
Yeah, Tyler, what about for you? What was it like to see it all together watch it back?
I mean kind of just like similar to what my mom said, a lot of just like ooh, this looks good, like it isn't our story. But really the biggest thing for me was just finally seeing it in person, and like knowing that people would see my face with me being so young and everything I'd been through. Is really big to me that I get my story out there and I show a lot of other young men that this is not so uncommon and a lot of other men go through these struggles. So it was a really
good moment for me. I was really happy to see it in real time.
Yeah, and you've already experienced people reaching out to you after the documentary.
Yeah, I mean it's when it first came out, it was I couldn't even keep up with all the messages. I mean there was hundreds a day, and still what two months later? At this point, I probably get at least five to ten to day, which is still like pretty crazy. I've had businesses hit me with job offers to work at a gym as a personal trainer. I've had some pretty big celebrities hit me up to continue telling my story and do some pretty big things.
So I'm excited for that.
Yeah, we're all so excited for you.
I'm proud of you.
I want to talk about updates since the documentary came out.
Uh yeah, So my stepfather, who you all saw in this documentary, he is currently suing me for defamation. Yeah, yeah, defamation made it all up. Yeah, suing me for defamation because everything I said was a lie. I wish I could show you all the papers. It's a bunch of bullshit.
I'm gonna be real, I'm blunt.
I'm not gonna hide who I am.
Thank you guys.
Yeah, but he he wants to sue me for coming out and talking. But I hope he knows. All that does is motivate me to keep coming.
Yeah, Andrea, do you want to talk about that a little bit? About the defamation lawsuit and like the ways that we see those being used, I think to manipulate a lot of times storytellers and try to silence people from telling their stories survivors.
Yeah, I just think it was a scare tactic to try to keep Tyler from speaking.
And you know, oftentimes.
We see perpetrators try to control this story, and I think he was used to being in control for a really long time. And you know, you've got a great attorney and you're working on it.
Yep.
You know, his lawyer told me, you have to have character to say a defamation of character, and we've clearly proven that you don't have character. So you know, everybody's a jail house lawyer, so we knew this was going to happen. He's filing appeals as well, because he's throwing anything at the wall to make it stick and whatever. He's trying to appeal his sentence because it was too long. Boohoo.
We know that this is something that we're probably going to have to deal with for the rest of our lives. Because that is his right, I've been told. But you know, in the end, he just constantly keeps bearing himself because the district attorney told me, the more appeals you file, the more it looks like you show no remorse. So she said, every time he does this, it's another nail in his coffin. So we fully intend that he's going to put himself there for his maximum sentence.
We're going to bring your oldest daughter, Mikaela in in a second. But I want to talk about the family decision to participate in first the podcast and then the Hulu documentary.
When they reached out to me about the podcast, I immediately talked to Mikaela and Tyler about it because it's not my story, it's all of our stories. I wasn't going to exploit my child by going out and speaking without his knowledge. So I told him, if we do this,
we do it all together. And it was just something that we felt, I think that we needed to do for healing, and just we wanted to take something like this and turn it into something good, and we knew that that was the only way that we could do it was to just make for people more aware because I think when you first have this happen to you, you have so many people come up to you and say, oh my gosh, you know that that happened to me, or that happened to my brother or this, and you don't.
You have no idea how many people you know that have dealt with the same thing. I think we have a lot of broken people in this world, and I think it's because a lot of people say silent about these things. So I think our hope was that we could reach a lot more hurting men and just change the world.
Uh yeah, pretty much second that. But yeah, going into all this, it was just about I knew what I had been through, you know, searching the web looking things up as a child, going through all this, I genuinely thought I was the only boy in the world who knew what this was like. And I thought I was the only boy in the world who had went through something like this. And that was a big part of
the reason why I never talked. I never I never did anything to make a change because I thought this was just my life, this is where I was stuck. No one would understand me. But as I've gone throughout this journey, I've shared my story talk to endless people. I've realized it's an epidemic. To be honest, it's crazy, the amount of men that I've realized to have went through the exact same things I have. They say it's one in six, but with all the people I've talked to,
it's probably even higher than that. I wouldn't be surprised if it was more one in four one in three. You're not alone if you're a man who'd been through something like this. And when I was represented the opportunity to come through, do this, use my story to give other men what I didn't have. I couldn't pass it up.
Andre, you've worked on the story now two years more almost, so you know a big part of production we spend hours and hours and hours and hours. A lot of those moments never make it to air. Especially with the Hulu documentary, you're filming a lot of things that never make it to air. So can you tell me about some of those moments?
Yeah, I mean, there was one scene that we shoed Tyler and that was my favorite scene to do.
I hate even calling it a scene, but it was. And we were just like working out talking.
About life and where you are now and I've known you for two years and you've grown so much, and I think one of the things that you were working on is learning to stop thinking about life in the conditional way, like if I do this, then I'll be happy. If I get here, I'll be happy. If this happens, I'll be okay. Because that's what happens when survivors of abuse, they go through that, because that exchange is conditional, it's transactional.
And I feel like you've.
Come such a long way to just be present and figure out who you want to be and do what you want to do. And we talked about that in the scene and that was like my favorite, and it didn't make it to air.
I think, Michela, you have a scene too that you love.
Yeah, I had a scene.
Tyler made a comment to me about how he was very thankful that I was like the stronghold for our family and that he was very sorry that I was kind of put on the back burner, Like it was just very sweet, very emotional moment that I think a lot of people needed to see.
And that got cut too.
Mikayla's kind of I don't want to say his silent victim, but I think that you know, all of the focus was really on like Tyler and his healing and what happened to him, And it was a really good moment for us to say to you that, you know, we were sorry that you kind of got faded into the background a little bit, because that's was never anyone's intention, you know, So it was it was a sweet moment between everybody, and we were really sad when the documentary
came out. We were like, man, that was such a good moment.
Yeah, like your mom was saying, you know, you're part of the story. Can sometimes get overshadowed, but if it was not for you, we might not be sitting here. So can you tell me a little bit about reporting to the police what that experience was for you.
Yeah, So, for those of you that didn't listen, Tyler's friend, who is I guess we'll call him, for lack of better terms, the first victim. He reached out to me and disclosed to me that my stepdad had done this to him, and like full disclosure. I was driving and I opened the message and immediately started like bawling, and of course, like forty million things are going through my head, one thing being this is why you don't text and drive.
But.
I mean, so I pulled over, had like a two minute cry, and then I was.
Like work mode.
At the time, I worked at an outpatient psychiatry office, so I was like a mandated reporter, and so I immediately went to work mode and was like, Okay, these are the steps I need to do, and I'm going to do them. I do not care that he is my stepdad. I don't care who the fuck he is. And now the scary part, I guess for me was
that this was different. At work, I just make a report, but here he was already under investigation for the cameras, and so I was like, okay, I feel like I need to talk to a detective or something like.
I don't know.
It was just like something in my brain didn't care that he was a father figure to me. It was like, let's get this done, let's do the right thing.
And then that next few hours moved really quickly.
Yeah, So I drove about an hour and a half or so to the police station, and then when I got there, I gave them my phone. They took all the evidence off of it, all the messages with his friend, and then they were like, oh, well, while you're here, let's go through this binder. And they opened it and it was photos of friends, family, anything you can think of. In the bathroom, they had me identify everybody, and then they whipped out another binder, and that binder was all me.
I saw my husband on some.
Photos, and then.
After that I left.
I called mom immediately.
She's like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm leaving work.
I'm grabbing my kids and we're going. And I was like, well, I have.
A tiny, little one bedroom apartment, but you could stay with me. Poor Tommy he didn't even know any of this because it was like so fast everything's happening that I didn't get time to tell him until he was already off work. And I was like, hey, by the way, mom and the kids are coming to our tiny little guys, right like our tiny little nine hundred square foot one bedroom apartment. I worked from home for a few days, try to help mom with the kids, try.
To figure life out.
And then Tyler came forward, Yeah, we're going to talk more about that time period and kind of like survival mode and how that gets represented in true crime stories. But I also want to talk about your position as the eldest daughter.
And Tyler's big sister.
Can you tell me from your perspective what it's been like to watch Tyler's journey of coming forward and then getting to the place where he is today.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Just watching him help other people is something that I can't even explain to anybody, what kind of feeling that is inside as somebody who was his caretaker for a long time.
Yeah, yeah, well thank you.
What about for you, Stacy, watching Tyler go on this journey over the past few years with the show, what has that been like for you as a mom?
I don't think anybody can never understand what betrayal did for us. You know, we had a lot of people say things like, you know, gosh, why would you want to share that? Or why do you want to go national with that? And this and that? And I had those moments, especially when people can be very cruel online and judge. But I think seeing him grow and also just seeing the men that have came behind him and said, you know, I'm fifty some years old and I've never
told anybody this in my life. There are people that are free because of you, And I'm incredibly proud to be your mother, and I don't care what anybody says. And I don't care. You know, if someone thinks I did something wrong, I think I did things wrong. If I was watching my documentary, I would have been like m girl. I would have talked about myself. It's true. You know, when you're in those kind of moments, you know you're just coming from a place of just sheer chaos.
But I'm just incredibly proud to be your mom.
Well, thank you guys.
He still don't take the trash out enough, though, we could work on that.
She's lying.
Welcome back.
We took a short break to bring out Caroline Barrega from season four, along with her two kids. Her daughter Nicole was on stage and her son participated from the audience to protect his anonymity.
Thank you all so much for being here.
Thank you for having us.
Caroline, you know I want to hear a little bit in your words about what you went through.
It was an infamous Monday afternoon.
I was at work and I opened my laptop and I was in an online meeting, and I saw my phone go off. There was a chime, and I saw that there were cameras around our house, and that there was some movement, and as I looked at it, I noticed that my now ex husband was dragging up the trash cans, and I thought to myself, Oh, that's strange what he's doing home so early. Maybe he was out on an investigation or something happened and he just ran
by to grab some lunch. And I continue to watch, and then it dawned on me, where's his take home cop car? The take home cop car wasn't in the driveway, and so I texted him and I said, hey, is everything okay? And he didn't respond, and hey, is everything okay? I noticed that you're home really early, and I just continued to watch the little dots the three ellipses on my phone bounce, and finally he respond and he said, no, everything's not okay.
I fucked up the worst I've ever fucked up in my life.
You're going to want to divorce me. And I was scared, and I thought, you know what happened, And so after several attempts, he finally answered the phone, and he was very stoic about it and just let me know what he did. And I was able to maintain my composure. I gently closed my laptop and then I walked out and I made it to a street corner before I just completely lost it and I said, what have you done? And he just emphasized repeatedly, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry, Caroline.
You have to tell the kids. Reporters are going to start calling the house. You have to tell the kids. And I didn't know what to do.
I drove home.
I don't remember driving home, and when I got to the house, I was just kind of pacing. And Nicole came home and she was very jovial, her typical self, and she said, Hey, who doing my job for me? Who brought the trash up today? I mean, it's ironic, the stuff you remember in times of trauma. And I just sat there staring at her, and she said, are you okay?
And I said no, and she said, is daddy okay. I didn't even know how to respond, and I just said no.
And she got kind of this shock, because when you're a cops kid, you live in fear that something happens to your dad.
And the next.
Words out of her mouth were, did he get caught cheating on you? And I just stared at her. And for those of you who have listened to the podcast. I can assure you my son graduated with honors from a very prestigious university. But she did call him because we didn't have the rule book or a handbook on how you handle when a disclosure.
Like this happens.
And she said, hey, I got to talk to you.
It's an emergency.
And he said, hey, I'm getting ready to take a chem exam and she's like, no, it's an emergency. So again, I can assure you he did pass. Everything is fine. Next thing you know, our life was just a whirlwind and a snowball, and I went into autopilot and trying to make sure that I could have some form of normalcy and just get by.
Yeah.
Yeah, I want to talk a little bit about your husband's career as a police officer, and you, specifically as his partner for twenty five years, sacrifice so much personally to give him those advancements in his career, those late nights that you were taking care of the house and the kids, and a big part of your value system was believing in what he did and the institution he
worked for, and that changed for you overnight. So can you talk a little bit about what that experience was like and where you're at with that today.
Absolutely.
My ex husband was a very decorated service member for the community, and we had a room in our home our office that were filled with just community and commanders commendations. He joked and called it the love Me Room because everything in there was all about him, and I showed all the love from the community of him. I knew when I married a cop what I was getting into. I'm not an anomaly of someone who marries into a
law enforcement family. I made a sacrifice of knowing that I was going to have to be with the kids alone at night, and I would be the person who would be aerating the field when I'm walking across to take them to practice and to dance class, and that it would be something that would be busy. And I didn't sacrifice everything for me. I too have a career
and do use my brain and my degrees. But I knew that I would be the person who would be able to have more flexibility to be there for our family, and would also be the person who would be able to support him in his career as well.
Yeah, you know your.
Career is something that your job has asked you not to talk about Otherwise We would love to have featured it in the podcast and have it be a part of who you are on the show, but we understand and we wanted to keep your job.
So thank you. I really appreciate that.
Yeah, Dre, can you talk a little bit about Caroline's story and why it stood out to you as with the season you wanted to produce next.
Yeah, I mean it started off as a potential story for the weekly series, So you were actually working with Caroline directly, which is a little bit different.
Yeah, And we were just talking about it in a production meeting.
And there was research we had to do and we had to you know, find these ia.
Files on Joel Internal Affairs.
Thank you, and we finally got them back and there was so much there and we said to each other, this can't just be a weekly We need to do ten episodes on this story.
It's very rare working in media to get internal affarious investigations audio files from police investigations, and so we said, you know, this is something that we need to follow.
Yeah.
Yeah, And so that was the beginning of everything. Yeah, and you had already had a relationship with Mo and I'm like, hi, you know, and you know, we get this question a lot, like why this story, and I oftentimes especially from law enforcement, like I've seen so much. This isn't the worst case ever. You know, it's important for Betrayal to focus on stories that really feel like the every day, that feel like it could be your neighbor or your friend, because it feels accessible and then
we can understand it. And that's why I thought your story was important to share.
Yeah, absolutely, so I want to talk to you, Nicole Hi. Hi. You're the one who originally found Betrayal, so in a lot of ways, you're another reason we're here on stage.
Yes, you're welcome.
What has it been like for you to watch your mom over the past three years, you know, since your dad's actions came to light, but also this past year in particular producing the podcast.
She's always been such a like independent and powerful woman. So seeing her go through the twenty twenty two year, which was you know, infamous year, that was of course
really hard because she just wasn't herself. But ever since we kind of got our footing as a new family, a family as three, she's really grown and to someone that people go to, whether that's women that have experienced cheating and whatever else, or even women in our own police department where this happened come to her as like a source of comfort and be a person that people can lean on.
Carolyn, Before I want to ask some questions to both of your kids. But before we do, I want to talk a little bit more about the institutional betrayal of the police department, because that was also a place where you put a lot of time and energy in and
I think expected some support back. Institutional betrayal is a term we recently learned from this research psychologist doctor Jennifer Fried and it's a different experience than the interpersonal betrayal you had with your ex husband, And I want to talk a little bit about how that felt different, what that felt like.
Sure, it's a phenomena when you're in a lawnforcement family. And I can say without making a big disclosure, I work in a very closely law enforcement related field, and when you're a part of a law enforcement family, law enforcement tends to hang out with law enforcement. These were people who were at the births of my kids. They showed up shortly thereafter with gifts. We did family functions together,
we celebrated together. There was law enforcement lined up In our wedding party, my ex husband's groom's cake was a pig with a badge on it. So this was our life and it was a big piece of it. And I can tell you that you become fiercely protective of each other. And I had this big belief that, yes, there are bad apples and every organization, but they're few and far between. I would chant that to myself. I was extremely protective over other law enforcement families, and you
just become this big unit together. And as my ex husband's double life began to unravel, I lost all that. So I didn't just lose my nuclear family, I lost my extended family within the law enforcement community.
And it was just vanished.
My facade of what I had tried to raise my kids to believe about law enforcement and trusting law enforcement, what I believed about it completely vanished. So it was just not grief of my nuclear family, it was grief of my community.
Yeah, you know, like Andrea said, we first started working together, and I remember in the beginning, about a year and a half ago, before we did our very first interview, you were understandably very cautious about participating in this. So can you tell me a little bit about what you were weighing when you were deciding do I want to tell this story publicly.
It's not the most comfortable feeling to reveal the most private details of your life life, and I was really struggling with how I wanted to approach this. I was living in this silence and this constant internal thought of, oh my gosh, how did this happen to me?
How did this happen?
And I think that's really why the podcast drew me in so much. There's an episode in season one where it's the very first time I ever heard the term betrayal trauma, betrayal therapy, and I am not too proud to admit it. I listened to that episode at least a dozen times. I just resonated with me so much, and it was just really, really difficult to really imagine putting myself out there. It was scary because I didn't
want to have this define my kids. It certainly has shaped them, but it certainly does not define them whatsoever. And I work in a law enforcement related community, so this was really difficult for me to in essence call out some of my colleagues.
And put that on blast.
But you know, I remember those conversations very very well, and I would love to go back and tell myself, oh my god, suck it up, Buttercup, put your head up, throw your shoulders back, and be the damn voice for women who are living in terror and shame to discuss this.
Hell yeah wow. I'm going to pivot to Caroline's son in the audience and have you too, talk as her children. I mean, you know you have said that this was a family decision, and I remember when you were weighing if you wanted to do this. A big part of it was I got to talk to my kids. I got to make sure my kids are okay with this. So I want to hear about what those conversations were like with y'all as a family, about are we on
board with this, are we going to participate? Are we going to support our mom in this?
What was that like for y'all? Nicole, do you want to start?
Yeah? So, when my mom.
First came to us discussing the possibility of us doing the podcast and going forward with everything, I of course wanted my mom's narrative out there, our family's narrative out there, because we were so silent. People just assumed or they just flat out told lies about our family, and of course my dad's presence in my town didn't help with that.
So that was the main reason why I wanted to do this, or we wanted to do this as a family unit, to just put our voice out there and say we're solidified in our new sense of reality and this is how we're going to move forward. And even though all of this happened, we came out on the other side stronger.
I think it boils down to two main reasons. I think seeing the effect that the podcast had on both with my mom and my sister and the value that they got from it, I think that was huge. And I also think that it takes courage to platform these stories, and it.
Takes courage to tell these stories, and I.
Think people need to hear them and the messages that we receive on a daily basis of people saying what we said listening to the podcast initially, you know this could be us, and so I think it's important to let people know that you can go through these unfortunate circumstances, to say the least, and make it out on the other side.
Yeah, and I think that Caroline Son, the way that we have navigated your privacy and your participation in this show, you know, shows that there are different ways that you can incorporate different members of the family that have different comfort levels with their exposure. So can you talk a little bit about why it was important for you to be a voice on the show and participate actively.
Well, you have these prominent community members and law enforcement and other related fields just saying blatant lies about my entire family, and obviously that didn't sit right with any of us. And so it's not about getting the truth where it's not about getting our truth out there. It's literally just the truth out to the community. And that was a part of it. And I think also just
this experience brought us closer together. And I think that having a unified front, and I'm appreciative of the accommodations to my privacy requests and all that, but being a unified front was huge and I'm honored to be a part of it, and I'm proud of them.
I think what people often forget is, aside from the affairs, what Joel was doing was planting seeds about who you were as a person, as a wife, as a mother.
Behind the scenes, so if he.
Ever did get caught by a colleague, they would say, well, could you blame him? Like he was creating a story about you and you know, putting your reputation.
On the line.
So it was so much more than just the sexual misconduct within the CESPD. It was how he was using you and your image and what you've done for your family against you so that he could just get away with it. And that's I think really important because when we started working together, You're like, I want my truth to be told because he took that away from you.
You really did, you know, truth and transparency has become a theme of the family that y'all have rebuilt with the three of you, And so I want to talk about what that looks like when you have two adult children and you're saying, now we're pivoting new family and we're going to reconvene and make new values. So what does it mean to have truth and transparency be such a big value in your family. I think I'm going to let my kids take that one.
Well, going off of this like new family, everything happened in April, and then after that we recognize that little things in our family we just kind of let slide. As I'm sure many other families can relate, like certain fights that we had, or behaviors.
Or whatever else we just didn't want to bring up.
And so moving.
Forward with my mom, my brother, and myself, we realize that we just want to be our authentic selves, and to do that comes truth and accountability and recognizing each other's paths and really just being each other's advocates.
And we had to go through this process of healing together, and it's a nonlinear process. It doesn't get better every single day. There's good days and bad days. We still have good days and bad days. We're still healing. But I think it's the understanding of we're in it together and we're gonna go through this together for the rest of our time here. And I think that was important too.
And part of that after facing so many lies and such profound deception and having that all come to light, obviously truth and transparency has to be a bedrock of a new foundation after you face that.
The other piece that I had to face was the fact that certain things I tried to not say, and at one point, this one here looked at me and said, do not lie to me anymore. He lied to us enough, and it's our turn to be able to make choices on if we're going to show up to something or do something.
Do not lie to me like he did. So I said, you have my word from here on out, no more.
Andrea, I want to talk a little bit about institutional courage, which we as a production team encountered this term this year, and we've seen it in both of these families.
Yeah, I mean, family is an institution and it takes courage to lead with truth and transparency to make sure these things don't happen in the future. And so I think by you guys sharing and knowing what was actually happening so you can make your own choices, that takes institutional courage. And you know, obviously there's the CSPD of
it all. There are a lot of people inside CSPD that has known what Joel has been doing for a really long time, but we're too afraid to speak out because they didn't want to throw a name out there and have backlash. So I mean, it takes courage to come forward. But what's happening and what we researched at CSPD is that's not happening, And so Hopefully by bringing awareness of what's going on with the misconduct, someone will do the right thing.
Welcome back.
We're sharing the audio from our first ever Betrayal live show. We're talking with Stacy Tyler and Mikaela from Betrayal season three and Caroline Borega with her two kids from season four. One of our Betrayal Pretty there is. Monique moderated the event, so I'll throw it back to her.
All right, So I want to transition to talking as a big group, and I want to start just by talking about what it's like to be in person together. This was a little experiment that we were asked to participate in and we didn't know how it would go.
So what has it been like?
You know, you've had very different experiences, but you've also had a core similarity.
I can tell you that after the first episode aired, I received an email from one of the producers who said, Hey, Stacy wants to talk to you, and she's asking if we can share your information.
Is that okay?
And I said sure and fast friends and sisterhood in this camaraderie in this crazy ass way, and it was like trial by fire and she was like.
Don't do x Y and Z don't read X Y and Z do.
She did, and it's been I felt like I knew her before we even stepped on the ship. It's been incredible and I'm very grateful for you.
Yeah, I feel the same way. We you know, we've had a bond that I think will always you know, will always have I'm sure Ya Ashley and Jen and all of them feel the same way. There's a lot of these get this shit text message, you know, and you can't make this up, like you know, especially with a lawsuit.
You know.
I was like, oh my god, girl, get this. But yeah, it's been it's been incredible and we've we've made some really great, great memories on this trip and just really incredible people.
What's it been like for you, Drey to see everyone come together and also meet listeners.
I think it was you who mentioned we should do it like a retreat or like a girls weekend, and I was like, hell yeah. But then this came about like a few weeks later, so maybe this is a trial run.
And it's actually really great because you.
Understand betrayal, you understand deception and how that can really fundamentally change your sense of reality and make you question yourself and the decisions that you made, especially in moments of survival and just trying to get through the next day, like I just need to wake up, get my clothes on, and get out the door, and those little things you guys can relate to on a very specific level.
And so I knew you guys would hit it off.
This has been such a joy, and I think it's just a testament to our community and it growing.
It was either going to be this or we were going to crash Andrea's wedding. I was like, I don't know if you know, but I'm coming, even if I got to sit in a little table outside just peek in. She was like, oh no, we're having a whole betrayal table.
I want to talk about the experience of actually living through what y'all have been through versus the product.
That we see at the end.
You know, what is it in total five hours of audio or three hours of video that is so different from what you actually lived through. And so I want to open it up to y'all to talk about what was a surprise to you and what was difficult to see or maybe really rewarding to see, but a little bit more about what it was like to see the things you had really gone through turned into a true crime podcast, a true crime docu series.
I think I could.
Start with that it actually wasn't too bad, because I have to be honest, nothing beats actually living through it, so it's almost like you're a little desensitized. But I think the hardest part for me was the recreation of
the scene where Tyler tried to kill himself. He had called me at the time and I was two and a half hours away, and so like watching the re enactment, which I am well aware was dramatized and there was actors, but like just feeling that again that I could have lost him, that really messed with me for a little bit.
I think for us it was it was an incredibly healing experience that I don't think we realized was going to be what it was even when we watched it or listened to the week's episode, because like I said, it's almost like you're listening to someone else's story even though it is yours. And we would just sit down
afterwards and we'd be like, that is crazy. These questions that they think of that just would get you thinking of things and then we would go on these almost therapy sessions, you know, our car rides home, because we went up to Pennsylvania to film, it's about a three hour drive. These three hour car rides we would spend having like our own little therapy session, you know. So for us, you know, we're incredibly thankful to you, because
I think healing started with betrayals. So you know, you may not have thought that it was going to do anything, or one people or two people was going to listen to it, but I can tell you that it's been instrumental in all of our healing. Completely, I don't know it. You know you probably feel the same way.
Absolutely.
Has participating in Betrayal in this production changed the way you think about true crime content, Like when you go to consume a podcast, watch a podcast, and watch a podcast, listen to a podcast, or watch something. Has it changed the way you approach that and think about it.
I know, for me, it definitely has.
I grew up watching Dateline twenty twenty true crime. Mom's been joking all weekend or well however many days we are now in, but she's been joking this whole time, Like you know, oh, kids, watch Barney Michaela's watching Dayline.
She wanted to be Keith Morrison. Baby don't.
Yeah. So, you know, growing up as a teen early twenties all that, you know, I watch these true crime documentaries and I'm like, oh, come the fuck on, like you knew, like, don't get out of here, and I would judge. And now I wouldn't go to social media and talk about it, but I would think that. And then as this started to unravel, I was like, oh
my god, people are thinking that about me. And so now when I watch true crime documentaries or listen to podcasts like I have, my mindset is so different because in reality, you guys only get, you know, this tiny little sliver of what happened.
And on top of.
That, like you're getting all the information, you know, detectives, policemen, judges, you know, the whole family.
Like everybody's giving stories.
But we didn't have.
That, you know, we were day by day figuring it out. And so now like when I watch these shows, I have to remember, like they probably didn't know, they didn't have all this ready made, you know, little Kraft mac and cheese cup ready for them. You know, they had to go out and make the noodles, and so I think it's just really changed so much of like how I view other true crime docuseries.
One of the questions I get a lot, were there really any red flags any?
Huge part about our project is really.
Explaining that there often are none, because perpetrators like Justin Joel really good at hiding who they really are. And so I think when audiences watch true crime and they have those thoughts, Mikaela, I think it's a form of safety of like I would see that if it happened to me, and.
That's often not the case.
And that's why we are so open about like not knowing because you didn't and why would you even think that your husband could do what he did? Why would your brain go there? So that's a huge part about betrayal.
Ashley put it really good in hers and it became so clear to me when she said it. She said, you know, it's like this puzzle and you have all these pieces and in twenty fifteen you might have got this red flag that in twenty seventeen you might have got this, and when you're taking it over a course of the you know, Justin and I were together seven years. I don't think you didn't think back to something like, oh, let me put together with that red flag, you know,
let me start collecting the flags. You know when when you get to the end, then you're like, oh, and then the puzzle it becomes it becomes clear, it becomes a puzzle. But you know, in this moment you have a blue piece and a red piece and a yellow piece and nothing matches. And then they start to make
you think that you're crazy for feeling this way. And I know, for me, justin would you know, do things to me like if there was something I was bothered by, you know, by him, it would just be like, well, you know, if that's the kind of husband you think I am, maybe we should get divorced. And for anyone who knew me personally, being a wife was something I took pride in. I took pride in being a good wife.
I loved being a good wife. And when he would say those things to me, instantly I would kind of crawl inside myself and think, think, you are a terrible, terrible wife. How can you think this about this man who's great to your kids, provided a good home to you, gave you this life. And so he would take that and manipulate it. So there's so much more than just oh, well you know you missed red flags. Well yeah, there's
red flags now now that you've told me. I mean, like, you know, I look at photos now that when I took them, I was just like, oh, these are such sweet moments, and they make me sick now because I see them in a different way. It was that was probably one of the hardest things for the documentary was to see the photos of him and Tyler hugged up together that I used to think, we're sweet moments of just a man loving my kids, you know, like a
father should to now realizing how disgusting they were. So it's you know, you have to give a little bit of grace. I think I'm saying way with Mikayla as now you know, I've read my mouth I don't know how many times, and now if I'm watching TV, you know, a documentary, and I'm like and then I like sit back, and I'm like, wait a minute. You know, I don't know her story. I don't know his story, you know. So I think we I think we got to give people a little bit of grace and realize that in
these moments when you're trying to navigate. You know, there's, like you Caroline said, there's a part of my story no one knows as well that I wasn't really allowed to share, and I don't give a shit about sharing right now is I was also sued civilly by the boys parents who found the camera. So while this was all going on, you know, civil attorney, criminal attorney, divorce attorney.
I lost my home, you know, And you're literally just going from one thing to another every day of trying to put out fires and make sure that your children are still eating and not just only bop tarts, you know. I mean it's the truth. You just cannot You make the best decision you can at the moment. And did I Did I screw up? Yeah?
I can tell you that first year was autopilot, just absolute autopilot. I just wanted to get by. I am at you know, anyone who's posted anything on Reddit or anything else. You can't beat me up anymore than I beat up myself. I have questioned myself. I question everything
about every decision I ever made. You know, there's an episode called it's essentially the split screen episode Revisionist History, and you hear my entire twenty five year relationship with my ex husband in the span of thirty eight minutes. And I tell you every single thing now in those thirty eight minutes that now I have a concern about and I question all the time. And I did that for that first year, and you don't really know. It's
like the analogy of the frog in the pot. You don't know that it's boiling until you're out, and I can see that it's boiling now that I'm out.
I want to talk a little bit more about survival mode with you, Dre, because that's something we talk about all the time, and to trying to understand and tell these kind of stories, we often have to tell the story of that. We have to tell that story of the survival mode year and all the choices that were made in that year. But it is so difficult to convey that experience that you all had. We can't make a year long podcast, we can't really be in your head.
But can you talk about like the survival brain, the logic brain, and the ways that we try to make content that helps people understand that survival mode.
I think one of the first questions I asked you, Stacy, when I came to visit you, was like when you would wake up in the morning after everything happened, Like what was your first thought? Because when something horrible happens and your life is falling apart, just opening your eyes and realizing, no, I'm actually here, this is actually happening, this is my real life, and I now have to
get up and face the day. And so that's I remember talking to you about that, and I think it is important to give people grace and know that when this happens, they are literally just trying to get through their day and make a ton of decisions legally financially,
groceries on the table, like it is really hard. And then with space and if you work at it and you see a psychologist and you have your community and your family, you can slowly transition into the analytical brain and really sit with what happened, think through how it's
occurring for you. And we just want to show our audience that those are two different experiences and that the majority of these individuals are living in survival mode for a year two years, you know, and then with time and healing you can look back and really start to process.
But those are two different states of mind.
Oh yeah. I mean you you wake up and it's just, you know, life doesn't stop, your bills don't stop, your work doesn't stop, you know, so you're navigating all this stuff while still having to make sound rational decisions, and you open your eyes and you're like Jesus another you know, like it's another day, and all you do is try to get through to get to bed that night. You know, I just if I can make it to bed, if I can just make it to you know, where I can go to sleep, I'll just go to sleep and
I'll wake up and it'll be different tomorrow. And then you wake up and it's another day, and it's just yeah, it's just but it's a vicious cycle. And living in that survivor moment, you know, you don't make the greatest of decisions. I mean, you just can't. You can't. You do the best you can with what you have at the moment.
I think that's one thing that makes the online comments feel so unfair and so hard for us. We have to track them as part of our job, as though we're attracting the comments we get, and some of them are so personal and so vitriolic, and I think obviously it says more about the commenter than any of y'all. So you know, I'm curious how you handle that, because I think that would make me short circuit.
At this point, we make it a joke.
But like somebody at one point made a comment at one like on I don't know, TikTok or something and said like, oh, that sister of his, she's just so conceited and you know, she thinks like she's the shit. And I was like, well, first, you know, yeah, I'm confident, but secondly like, okay, you know, not trying to sound ridiculous, but if I was so conceited and you know, didn't care about my brother, he wouldn't have gotten no whole arm tattoo for me.
So good for you that you thought that.
What sit each other messages? I'll be like, how you doing today? You can seated bitch?
Yeah.
So you know, now it's like we just turn them into jokes and it's just a way to, you know, just laugh about it, because you know, hurt people hurt people, and.
It's nothing we can do.
I can't help them, but instead we can just laugh about it. And I know, Tyler and I even made a whole TikTok video addressing a lot of the questions and mean comments that we were getting, specifically about our mom, and I think that helped a lot clear up a lot of things.
Really, about ninety five percent of the comments so on like the stuff I make, are pretty positive, and then there's like the five percent like troll. But to be honest, about eighty five ninety percent of the time that troll has about third grade grammar or or you can tell they didn't finish the show because they don't know shit about what's going on and they're just saying whatever. So
I just kind of ignore the trolls. If it's something that bad, I'll delete the comment, like if it's on my own stuff, just because I don't want like other survivors to see that them to be discouraged. But me and myself, I just tell them, you know, you can go fuck yourself.
That's me.
I don't care.
Yeah, we we have a lot of I don't know if y'all notice, we have a lot of dark humor. Humor is what carried us through a lot of this.
Some people are uncomfortable with that. But the comments on the podcast really really got me, and I decided when the documentary was gonna come out, that if I had to be the martyr you know, in this, and if people had to hate me for his story to get out and for his healing to come, that I was okay taking that, and that I really didn't give a shit because I know my truth and you know, we
have an incredible really relationship. You know. I know Caroline got a lot of shit about, you know, telling her children. I think it was out, you know, noble, that you made it a point not to lie to your children. We have to be honest with our children. We have to tell our children things that hard things. I know, I questioned myself a lot, did I tell did I talk about hard things with my children when they were little? Of you know that people can do these kinds of
things to you. So I was incredibly proud of you for telling your children and being truthful. I know I had a lot of people with my littles that was just like just telling me died. I'm like, I wish he would die. I wish that was the truth, but it's not the truth. And I'm not gonna lie to them. You know, I tell them in little bits, but you know, so I mean going back to the comments. But you know, at the end of the day, Yeah, you just have
to you just kind of have to separate that. But our way of dealing with that is joking, and we're we could be pretty nasty, like like tellers. So we're like, they're probably in their mom's basement in a bean bag, charity and Cheetos. You know, like we just have to you just have to do it. It is what it is.
Yeah, I didn't listen to their advice, and uh, you know some of the things that were said. It is just very evident that there's a lot of people who clearly have read a manual that I haven't. I mean, whatever the title of that book is that says, Hey, when your high ranking police officer husband blows up your lives and reporters are getting ready to come to your door, and then he moves out to the family RV, loses his job and relocates, here's what you should do. Is
that noble that carries that Amazon Prime. So I didn't have that, and I, you know, how to make decisions quickly financially, personally, emotionally. I had to make decisions as a parent, and I was doing the best I could with it. I didn't have a three and four year old, so this wasn't like I could somehow make a story up and you know, discuss it like the Toothpaerrier Santa about why Dad didn't live with us anymore he was no longer a police officer, and that we were preparing
for reporters to show up at the door. I didn't have the ability to be able to make something up and lie to them or tell a story or dance around it. I had to be very direct, very very very direct, and that's something that was difficult.
It was hard.
It wasn't easy for me by any stretch of the means. And it wasn't easy to have these really blunt discussions with my kids. And I will tell you on a different note, you know, we do cope with dark humor. We were my son and I were golfing not too long ago before we came on the cruise and he just he hit this ball of country mile and it.
Just was gone.
And he was like, yep, that ball left me like my dad.
So I mean, we say sideway stuff all the time, and that's how we cope with it. And that's really dark for a lot of people and hard for people to hear, but it's what we did. And you know, there are a lot of things that occurred in our lives where it was so hard to have these tough discussions with them, but we had to have the discussions in order for us to get through. And having them both say, do not lie to me. If something's going on, Preparius, do not lie to me.
It was hard.
It wasn't easy. It was not It was not something that I would wish on anyone. So, you know, for those of you or anyone who you know who does have that manual, tell them I'm proud of them and I'm so grateful that they're able to navigate it a lot better than I did.
I did the best I could.
And the other thing I'll say about it is that there in some of the comments, people were like, I am horrified, you know that she had this discussion with her kids. I'm horrified I had to have the discussion with my kids.
Absolutely, let's be horrified at the people who did the crime.
Yep.
I want to know, let's be horrified exactly.
And I do want to say that that you know, Stacy's saying that. I do want to say The part that makes me so sad about some of those comments and some of the feedback that I've received from women who have thanked me for us telling our stories, is that it's comments like those that keep people silent. Yeah, so you are a part of the problem and you are damning the solution.
Wo.
I like that.
Yeah, what advice would y'all give to someone who was considering becoming the subject of a true crime podcast?
Don't read the comments, I would have to say, don't be afraid.
As I started seeing messages that Tyler was getting and I was getting, and Mom was getting, and the betrayal podcasts were getting, you know, I'm like, Wow, if we all would have lived in fear, these people may not have ever had that and may not have ever come forward, Ford, may not have ever said their peace. And that's really sad. And so don't be afraid. Tell your story. Scream it from the mountaintops. You know, it's better to do it that way instead of living fear.
People might say stuff online, but like I said, that's like the very odd select few I can tell you, not a damn person face to face has made fun of me for what has happened to me. And I don't think anybody has the balls too, because they know that's not right. So really, I don't think that's something you have to worry about.
Let's take another quick break and we'll come back to finish the conversation.
We wanted to take some audience questions. Are there any audience questions? We have a few that have been brought in.
Oh, have one, yes, So.
This is more for Carolyn. I listened to the whole podcast and CSPD is probably the second biggest betrayal. How can they get away with it? And it's not just Joel, it's the other people in the department, and they came forward with it and they still I mean, how it got to the point where he was able to retire even now? How do you even get past that?
I wish I had a solid answer for that, and I looked over at Andrea when I when you were asking that question. There's so much more to the story that you would just fall out if you knew.
I can tell you.
One of the scariest things on the internal Affairs tapes without broaching legal.
Concern is that a very very high.
Ranking female in the police department actually turned my ex husband in for sexual harassment and nothing was done.
It's sickening to hear. It's really really sad.
We can move to any place we want in the country. That's one place we would never move to.
It is beautiful, though.
Hi, I have a question for Stacy, how has your definition of trust changed?
I trust very few. I work on that a lot. I know that I have a really filthy mouth. I call myself a spicy Christian. I love Jesus, but a cuss and it's the truth. It's something that I think I have had to pray about because I don't trust people. And it's really hard for me because I am such a trust I was such a trusting person. But you know, when people tell me things, most of the time, I'm like, you're lying or you know. I always kind of think, like what next, you know, I analyze kind of what
people say and stuff. It's hard. It's hard to ever trust somebody again. I mean, you lay next to somebody for seven years that you think you know, and you roll over one day and they're completely someone that you had no idea, you know. So it's hard. I think someday there'll be somebody that'll come along, maybe, you know, I pray for money instead of a husband. These days, I really would just rather have money, so I'm going cruises. But yeah, you know, it's a daily task to work on.
HI.
First of all, I want to say thank you for coming out here and sharing your story. It's very, very courageous. But I want us to ask the siblings, So, being so young and naive to how evil people can be, have you ever been guilt tripped for cutting your father off or no longer speaking to your father?
Has anybody ever said.
Oh, give them a second chance to your father, et.
Cetera, et cetera, only in the comments of Spotify.
Yeah, I think I like what people don't realize is like our dad was a funny human being and we liked being around him. So when it first all happened, like my brother and I were calling him up and asking all these sorts of questions, and then it came to the point where like he didn't come to my high school graduation, and he didn't come to this and that and this. So I was like, if he wasn't going to come to the big events, he's not going to come to the daily events.
And so then it's like, why worth trying?
HI?
This is for Stacy.
This is not really a question, it's more of a comment. I just want to tell you that I think you were a leacing mother. My mom did not believe me, and when I watched the episode, I was screaming at the TV because I was like.
Yes, Mama, yes you go.
So I just want to tell you, thank you, thank you for.
Being thank you for that, thank you for that. I appreciate that. Yeah, I can't imagine not believing my children. I mean, people gave me shit online like what took her so long to leave? I was like, shit, it happened on a Saturday. I filed for doors on Tuesday, like, with no proof. No, the abuse had not even come out. He had not even come forward yet, and I was just like, that's some whack ass shit. That's not happening
in my house. We can file for divorce. It was three days that I was just like I was willing to give everything up. And it was never about the money. It was never about the nice house we lived in. I didn't give a crap if you worked at sheets. Yeah, you know. It was three days before I was just like, you know, I'm believing what I'm being shown, right, now you know.
Yeah, well, our time is over, and I wish we could stay talking in front of this group because it feels really, really wonderful to be here and to have this out in the public.
It feels really special.
Yeah, thank you guys for coming.
This show means so much to everyone here on stage and it's been a joy.
So thank you so much for coming.
Thank you, Thank you guys.
Yeah, I to good.
Thank you for listening.
A special thank you to the listeners who came with us on the cruise.
Meeting all of you is such a delight.
Thank you to iHeart and Virgin Voyages, and as always, thank you to our storytellers.
On the next episode of Betrayal Weekly, this was.
My best friend. This was somebody who was in my house every single day. This is somebody who I told all my secrets to. She did this because she wanted to. She did this because.
She likes to manipulate.
She did this because she likes the control.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Ta or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com, or follow us on Instagram at Betrayal Pod. You can also connect with me on Instagram at It's Andrea Gunning. To access our newsletter, view additional content, and connect with the Betrayal community. Join our substack at Betrayal dot substack dot com.
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One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts and don't forget to rate and review Betrayal five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership.
With iHeart Podcasts.
The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fasin, hosted and produced by Me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Caitlin Golden, Olivia Hewes, and Kristin Melcury. Casting support from Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krincheck.
Audio editing and mixing by Matt del Vechio. Additional audio editing by Tanner Robbins.
Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines Music Library provided by mybe Music.
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