Time, Work & Life with Google's Productivity Expert Laura Mae Martin EP 351

Hi. I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker.

And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer, and course creator. We are two working parents who love our careers and our families.

Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life.

Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura.

This episode is airing in late April of twenty twenty four. Sarah is going to be interviewing Laura May Martin, who is a productivity expert and the author of the new book Uptime. She is also works at Google where she coaches executives on productivity, which I think is a really

So I think that's pretty awesome.

So she talks a lot about different productivity techniques and strategies. But what things she talked about that I a little flag for me was keyboard shortcuts. Apparently she is the guru of keyboard shortcuts, so I wondered, Sarah, do you use any keyboard shortcuts in your daily life?

I do. I enjoy keyboard shortcuts.

I'm sure I don't use as many as I could be using, but I have a few that I make my life so much easier. And I would say the most commonly used keyboard shortcut in my non like clinical life is the screen grab a MAC that is the shift control option for or shift control for whether or not you want to copy and paste it, And it basically allows you to grab anything on a screen and then instantly copy it to your clipboard so you can paste it wherever, or to save that graphic as a

So yeah, love the screen grab.

And then at work I do a lot of what they call dot phrases or text expansions. They actually have that on Apple as well, and I have the link. I can put it in the show notes. You don't have to buy a separate like text expansion app if you have a Mac and probably a Windows too, but I amac where you can teach it that, Like if I type squad cast one, then I can then click on this thing that comes up and then the whole

They're available to me. What about you?

Yeah, none, I mean, like literally none. And as just one example, I write my Before Breakfast podcast scripts every week and they all start with the same line, and they all end in the same line, and I type it out every single time. And I have done that thirteen hundred times. And I know there are ways to Like, I'm not an idiot. I know there are ways to do this, like to change it or to do a shortcut or something like that. But I guess I just generally feel like my life is not so close to

This reminds me of the latte factor.

Yes, just go get the latte, get a different job, and keep your lattes.

Yeah, exactly exactly.

I don't know, but Obviouslyarah May Martin.

Loves her keyboard shirtcuts.

Sarah loves her keyboard shirtcuts, and I think in their case they probably make sense for both of them. So we will hear what she has to say about different topics. But onto the interview that Sarah does with her.

Well, I am so excited today to welcome Laura may Martin to the show, who is Google's productivity expert and also the author of Uptime, which is just releasing now, a practical guide to personal productivity and well being. Welcome to the show, Laura.

Welcome, I mean, thank you, thanks so much for having me.

Well, I read through the copy of your book and I thoroughly enjoyed it, so I'm so excited to chat here. This is a book that I think is going to resonate with a lot of our listeners, as Laura is a little unique in that she has this really broad based corporate experience working at Google, but is also obsessed with all things productivity. And I feel like so much productivity advice comes from people who are now entrepreneurs and doing it on their own. Yet Laura is able to

Yeah, great question.

I was doing all of my coaching and the productivity at Google program and I had been doing a lot of like one off articles like email management and time management and parent magazine, and you know, it was like just kind of sporadic. And somebody approached me and was like, you know, you really should organize all of your thoughts about this into one place and really cover like a lot of these big things that people are dealing with, whether it's meetings or time management or energy.

And so I was like, you know, that's kind of a good idea.

So I started just like keeping a running list of like things I might want to include in a book for over like three years, and then started looking at all those and saying, like, how would those even fit into chapters? And here we are. So takes a long time, but I'm excited.

Yes, And in that time, I believe you have Well, at least in the book, you had three children under the age of four.

Is that still true?

Yes, Actually my oldest is now. For now there's three under five.

But yeah.

One of the stories I love to tell is like I signed to do this book and write it, and about three days later I found out I was pregnant, and I was like, Okay, that's going to be a busy year, and we also knew we were already moving. But then my son, my third child, he came over a month early, and so I was like all set on exactly what chapters I was going to write in this last month where I got off of work and

But yeah, it was.

It was a whirlwind, that whole process, like having.

The kids, moving, writing the book. It was. I was definitely in it. Still am.

That is amazing. Three kids in that age bracket is no joke. Laura has five kids and I have three, but I don't think any of us had kids that close together.

So you win that, you win that.

So that leads me in perfectly to my first question, because I can imagine with that many children and with your full life that you've talked a lot about setting priorities, which I am very passionate about as well, but then how to go through that exercise but also leave the room for the urgent things that come up.

Can you talk a little bit about that.

Yeah.

So I think a lot of times when I do my coaching, people will come back at me and say like, yes, I have a really nice schedule, or I have my priorities I want to focus on, but then urgent things always come up.

And so part of.

What we work on is that if urgent is really coming up often, first let's look at the process.

You know, urgent.

Once it's urgent, urgent twenty times like, something's probably wrong.

With the system. We've got to get that under control.

But then the second piece is if you're a journalist or you work on you know, like a bug team when a product goes down or something like that, the nature of your job is urgency. So we just have to ask ourselves are you leaving room for that in

Oh my gosh.

I love that the idea that if something's happening routinely that feels like an emergency, it's probably not an emergency and it deserves kind of well, or it is, but it like deserves a whole process that's going to streamline it.

So that's great. You have a system that's like frilling.

Down into a repeated emergency. How about those emergencies that relate to kids being sick and you thought about it.

I feel like that is one that you again you kind of plan for it, like we have a backup plan, and you know, I know that if my kids are homesick on Mondays and Wednesdays, like that's a day that my mom is typically available to come over and help. Or we have understanding teams at work that know we have young kids and also have kids, and so I feel like, you know, there's ways to get ahead of it and say, if it's happened, these are some of

Yeah, but your answer was beautiful there because you're expecting that to happen and you kind of have thought through, Okay, well this is the work I can maybe push forward, This is my number one backup, et cetera, rather than treating it as like a unique emergency every time, Like, let's face it, with that age, kids are going to get a bunch of any respiratory virus every season exactly. Can you talk a little bit about what you call the list funnel.

Yes, this is one of the things that's a little harder to talk about, you know, without visuals. So I do have the sheets on my site. But the idea of the list funnel is just that people a lot of people keep lists. They like liss, they make lists, they work from lists. But how do they all work together? How do you make sure if you wrote something on a list and it didn't get done, that it finds its way back to make sure you know you still

Oh I got to get that birthday party gift, I got to.

Send that email to my boss. Oh, I remember to switch the laundry. I get you know, So that kind of thing. It's constantly in our brains. So the list funnel is the way to funnel it from everything we could do, to everything we're going to do, to everything we're going to do today, to everything we didn't do, to things we thought about randomly when we were on

I love it.

I think about it as like a capture system that is like ironclad, right, Like you know you're going to see it, you know you're going to capture it, you know you're going to look at it. And I thought you did a nice job kind of like explaining how it's not even just having the list, but having the systems around the list right.

That makes it actually be super valuable.

Kind of tangentially related, you did a lot of discussion about boundaries and saying no, and I know that is a really common challenge for many of us. On this podcast, we had some really interesting guests talk about non promotable activities at work and how to try to minimize those to the extent that we can discuss how you go through boundaries, and specifically I love your positive framing of boundaries. Yeah, So I think that the first piece of boundaries is

To have an agenda. I like them to be fifteen minutes. I prefer people to email me first before they chat me. Like those are all things that I've communicated at work, and my signature and my like user manual, and so that kind of like helps set the boundary without me having to say, like, oh, I actually don't email on weekends, because it's like that's already set out there for me.

So that's kind of the first step. But then the second piece.

And what I like about the positive boundaries is you want to think about what you do do instead of what you don't do. So I give the example in the book of you Know our family photographer. I love her. I wanted to do a family session, you know. I wanted to do it on the weekends because my kids are in school and we have work. And she wrote back and I said, can we do Tuesday Thursday?

And or no? I said can we do Saturday?

And she wrote back and said, oh, I shoot family sessions on Tuesday Thursday.

And I remember thinking like that is so cool.

She did not tell me like no, she did not tell me I don't do sessions on Saturday. She just she made me feel like, oh, well, Tuesday Thursday. It is like I didn't think twice about it. I didn't think she was being difficult. I didn't think she was saying no. I just thought like, that's the way it is. It's Tuesday Thursday. And so we found a teacher workday and we made it happen. But I think that when

You do do I think that's the most helpful.

And I think one of the things that really reinforced that for me was when I was a bar instructor for a really long time, and one of the things they taught us is that never to say don't bend your knee, just say straight in your life, because it takes people's brain a lot farther to go around and say, well, am I bending my knee If it's not bent, what is it supposed to be? Instead of just straight, they just think straight. And so the more you can do

Yeah.

I like that your list was extensive, and I was like, oh, that sounds so so good.

So I really really like that.

We're going to take a very quick break and then we're going to be back talking a little bit more about that user manual concept because I feel like I've seen that a lot recently.

All Right, we are back.

So you mentioned a user manual and I cannot help that delve into that a little bit. I am curious, like, is that accepted at certain companies? Is like part of the culture. Do you have to be at a certain level to have a user manual? Like I work in medicine, and if I like gave everybody my user manual, like I think I'd be like laughed out of the office. So I'm super curious. I love the idea of it. So how did that become normal? And is it in multiple industries?

Now, Yeah, that's a great question.

I think that Google's really great and that they focus a lot on well being and work and culture and how do you work? And so I think it started with a lot of the executives doing it where it was like, oh, they're posting this, so then I can post this, and this is a cool concept. But even in the book I talk about you know, let's say that's not if you walked in with that to your office, they would say, Wow, that's crazy, that's too far out there.

The door and interrupted.

You know, something small that's like a small thing about working with you. And now that's something where somebody might have no idea. They might have thought you liked being interrupted during whatever that is for your role, but I think it's just communicating your work style. Preferences can be kind of that like dipping your toe in the water. And then if you are the leader or manager of a team, you might suggest, hey, why don't we go around the room and say like five tips for working

But it's like now the.

People that I work close with, I've now told them that I prefer email over chat, when they would have had no idea, and now they're able to streamline that

I like the idea that, like the leader could perhaps promote that culture amongst their teams. So maybe I wouldn't be like, here's my user manual, but if I was working with a bunch of people, I could be like, let's all talk about how I want to work well

Or something like that. So cool.

I like it.

I like it, like bring it to everyone, make it expensive. Well, let's talk about meetings. You have a lot of thoughts about meetings. I also I love the idea that you can like gently say like, yes, I don't go to meetings with that agenda. I guess you say, I attend meetings means with an agenda.

That's how you put it right exactly. I love it. So yeah.

I think meetings, like when I work with an executive or anyone especially I would say not executive, like that next lower level where it's like maybe you manage people. I call it like the sandwich level, because it's like you manage people and then you have managers and you're dealing with a lot. I think that what I see so much is that meetings just take up so much of people's times. And in the book I talk about like when are your best ideas in your ninth back

Are you there?

If you can skip a meeting most of the time, why is it on your calendar on a recurring basis? So I think that, just like across the board, the standard for meetings needs to go up. And we had a huge push around that at Google and it was really successful. And it's a problem quote for a lot of people because it takes up so much time. So you want to make sure that those meetings are excellent.

I love that offer like some specifics, like if it's an informational meeting, you had like a deliverable for every type of meeting that I think is useful. And it's not that there's only one type of meetings. There's a few different types, but there's got to be some very specific point and then a very specific kind of next step.

Yeah. I like that you like picked up on because I think, like a lot.

Of productivity books or just books in general, they'll give you like the big picture idea like you should have great meetings. But my whole like goal when writing this book, and the reason that I put in the title like a practical Guide, is because I did not just want it to be like, oh, you should eat healthy, and I wanted it to be like the recipes, like what do I get at the grocery store?

So like this in this sense, I wanted to be like, yes, you.

Should have good meetings, but what does a good meeting mean? What does an agenda look like? What type of meeting? What does the deliverable look like? Like really in the nitty gritty of like how you implement these things tomorrow, because otherwise they're just like raw, raw ideas that are not as like tangible in your day to day. So that was like one of my big goals with including that type of stuff, just like, how do I do this in my life?

Yes, now, email and laundry, what do they have in common? And how do we fix the email? Although I will say that I do love Google's email platform, so that part's not broken for me, But how do we fix how we use email in our daily lives?

There you go.

No, it's never the tool, it's always the intention behind the tool. So yes, I love Gmail too, obviously, But when you're thinking about laundry, everyone understands that.

And I ask people, Okay, if I told.

You do your laundry, and I said, go into your dryer, you got one shirt you kind of folded that, walked it up two floors to your dresser, walk down, you find a sock you don't know where the other one is.

Who cares? You'll walk that up.

You find a pair of pants, you think it's wet, but I'll throw it back in with the dry clothes. And I'm just going to keep opening my dryer door all day to remind myself how many clothes I have, how many clothes I'm not doing I don't know where the pink shirt is. I'm going to shut it at night and just start it all over and start again in the morning. You would say, like, that's insane, that's inefficient, that sounds terrible, But that's how so many people do

They haven't read yet.

They find one shirt, they respond to one email. Now they're following up with another email. Now they're reading instead of fold, fold, fold, read, read, read, hang, hang, hang, And so instead you should do your email the same way that you do your laundry. You should empty your dryer. So that's what inbox zero means. It does not mean I folded all the clothes. It just means that they're out of the dryer and I've put them into baskets based on what I need to do next. So read, review, respond,

And Gmail.

You know, multiple inboxes allows you to have those baskets baskets that you see, but you have your separate dryer and everything in there is kind of like one system that again, your mental load is lowered because you're not thinking, oh, where is that?

Have I touched that? How much do I have to fold? How much do I have to hang et cetera.

Yes, you mentioned baskets, and to be clear, this is not sorting a bunch of folders, because I love how you pointed out that we do not need to do that. No, No, throw it all into archives, gmails, search really great, it'll find.

It, exactly.

I think we have that mentality. It's funny. It carried over from like pieces of paper, you know. So it's like we had our file system and we're like, let's make our filesystem an email and it's like, no, we don't need it.

We can search for a couple words, and that's type of thing.

But you know you want these temporary folders or baskets and that those are things you take things in and out of based on what you have to do, but ultimately you don't need to like sort everything away, which is how a lot of people act in email.

Still, you have a great chapter on routines, which you call when colon then, which sounded a little bit like programming to be talk about that and how do you keep track of all those because there were a lot of those examples in there that you use personally.

Yeah, So I just like figured out that when I there's something I've been wanting to do, it just is like never going to happen unless I kind of associate it with something that I have to do in the same cadence. So, for example, I was just thinking about recently, like my kids, you know, having three kids, that's what sixty nails to cut.

If you think about that.

And I was just like, oh my gosh, I feel like we like try to do my baby's nails and then here and then like my daughter she wants to paint her nails, so then occasionally I'll cut them then, but it's like, no, I need a system to make sure that they're like nails aren't getting long.

So I thought in my head, like, well, they're kind of taking.

Baths at different times, different nights, but usually Sunday night we kind of do like a bath together, or my daughter's in the bathroom while the boys are bathing.

And I'm like, that is a.

Consistent routine every single Sunday we do that that we never miss it. And so I started leaving the nail clippers on the bath where we do that every Sunday, and I was just like, I know that we're going to be there every Sunday, I know that the nail clipper's gonna be staring at me, and it's a perfect time to just do that every single week and not have to constantly throughout the week being like.

Oh now the baby's crashed his face, I need to cut his nails.

That kind of thing is just like it's built in now, it's a system, and so you know, I started doing that with monthly things, and it's just like, I guess you could use the word triggers, like triggers that happen

Take a bath or go on a walk or whatever that is.

Like, I'm going to make it a routine and every Saturday morning I know I'm doing it, and then it kind of falls into place. So all the examples are in there are just things that you could do or I do do to kind of kick your brain into what are the when then routines that I need in my life?

Love it, and then you can always reassess them as stages change.

Job needs changed, kids, stages change. It's funny.

I was like, you're talking about cutting nails, and I'm like, oh my god, I never cut any nails anymore. Probably she caught my six year old's nails more often.

But then it also does it.

Yeah, there you go. There you go, that's your routine. That's good.

Yeah, and then my almost twelve year old just wants gel manicures, So there you go.

That's what it turns into.

Well, speaking of self care and that kind of area, you have a whole section on mindfulness and meditation and reflection. So can you talk about how you incorporate those things into your life.

Yes, I love that.

I feel like so many people want to talk about the list making and stuff like that, and I'm like, no, the whole point of the book is like you have to take the step back from that and prioritize like the bigger picture, which is your self care, your mental health and all of those things kind of like rise above the busyness and then you're like looking down on it from a different perspective.

And so yeah, I gave some.

Examples in the book because like you, I kind of want to know, like what are what are you doing?

What do these things look like?

But for me, I make time to I call it the Laura thirty every single morning. So I've said my alarm for six and from six to six thirty, I do like whatever I'm in the mood for. Sometimes I'm tired and I just truly will sit there and drink my coffee in silence, which, as you of Mom three know, like that is of gift in its own But sometimes most of the time I'll meditate. Sometimes I'm like reading a good book I want to read if I know I might not be able to work out later in

I have it.

But you know, I think that making those little moments for yourself, whether it's in the morning or just like I always go on a walk or I let myself do this, it's those are the things that keep you centered and kind of make everything else easier.

So I think people try to focus on the.

Everything else, and they're like if I just this, if I just had this tool, if I just hired this person, if I just But the point is like, if you actually focus on the nucleus of it all, which is you, then the rest of the things have a way of either working out or kind of like you care less or you can do more for them.

So they're easier. They're easier.

It's like exactly right, Like if you don't get enough type, everything's hard. If you don't take that time for yourself, have that anchor, then everything else becomes.

Exactly Yes, anchor is a good way of putting it. Well.

Our listeners love to hear a day in the life and I think yours is going to be particularly interesting since you have a lot on your plate and three little kids, So can you take us through a basic routine, including like your kind of childcare type stuff as well.

Yeah, yeah, so I do like office days some days, like once or twice a week, and then home some days. So I'll just give tomorrow because I actually just did my own hour by hour plan of what I was doing. So, like I said, I wake up, set my alarm for six. I have my coffee pre made, so I wake up, drink my coffee. My baby usually wakes up right around six thirty, so I nurse him while I finish the coffee, finish reading the book.

My oldest her, her light turns.

Yellow at six forty five because she likes to have like a little quiet time with me, So she comes in with me and the baby and we read a little chapter book. And then my middle he's two. His light turns yellow at seven, so he's usually already up and he's like, oh, mommy, come get me. So I go into his room. My daughter gets dressed, I get him dressed. We come downstairs. I usually have something for them to do while I make breakfast and make lunches.

Every other day. I do like I cook breakfast or I like a cold or hot breakfast.

So it's either like eggs or then the next day is yogurt, and then the next day is you know, something in the oven like that, and then we have a timer go off at eight o'clock. That means they know when the timer goes off that they're supposed to start getting their shoes on. So I never say like what time it is, or you got to do this or this. They say, oh, first timer, we got to

He's just like a late sleeper, and so we've just.

Been okay with that in our life. We knew he's good at bedtime. He does middle the night stuff, so like we were.

Sometimes I tell him that's it's vertical. We call that vertical ownership, so like you, and then he can do the eatings.

Yes, exactly.

So sometimes when I tell a story, people are like, are you a single mother, I'm like, no, just from just from six to eight. Yeah, So then we read a book or whatever. My husband takes them to school. I put the baby down for his nap. At eight thirty, I work out, I take a shower. Usually right after that I usually start my meetings or so at nine, while the baby's napping, my mom comes over. She wakes him up, and so you know, she takes them on a walk, and my husband gets my son from preschool.

Keep them free.

In the afternoon, I start doing meetings, podcasts, whatever I have, and that's when I tell people to schedule with me. And then usually my mom goes to get my daughter at school, they come home, she plays with them, and then usually around four thirty or five, I wrap up here, go downstairs, play with the kids outside to start making dinner. Bedtime, you know how it is, and then I usually I

But I'll watch TV or i'd read a ton.

I'm in like four book clubs, so I'll usually read about thirty minutes before bed and then start.

All over at six. That was very detail.

I love it.

And you are really in that like toddler baby phase, and I love it. It sounds lovely. I'm picturing all the putting them all down for naps, although I feel like that could be like whack them mole, Like okay, that is you know, like is he tired yet.

Or she like especially because they share her in my two boys and they like, I'm just like, how do I have two kids in sleep sacks with pacifiers who are like setting each other off across the room and cribs?

But whatever, you know, Marty in it why not?

Ah, No, I get that. I get I had all three of my children in one room for a while. It actually made bit that time, really and not for any reason like we had enough rooms, but it like made the baby sleep better.

At the time, I was like, this is actually really efficiently.

Yeah, It's like okay, just like throw them in there and someone's can fall asleep and turn the white noise up exactly.

But I know you have to run soon.

But before you go, we're going to share our loves of the week, and I'm going to go on theme and just say that Gmail search function is my favorite thing.

Like I don't sort anything, I just keep everything.

And the guest we had on a few weeks ago, I literally searched for her name and responded to an email she had written me in twenty twelve, and I'm like, Gmail, You're awesome.

I love it.

I could go on and on about Gmail. People like think that I'm paid to love Gmail so much. I'm like, no, it's the opposite way. Like I loved gmails so much that I ended up having this job. But I would say, actually, AI is.

What I'm like loving this week.

I feel like at first I was just like I don't really understand totally how to use it, Like what is the big big cell? But every year I do this big no Tech Tuesday Night challenge, and you know, thousands of Googlers sign up for it and it's really cool, and so people fill out this survey at the end and I used to spend probably three hours going through those. I mean I read every single person's comment, then I would keep themes like people think they got better sleep, et cetera.

So this year I plugged it into our Gemini tool.

I pasted every single one of the eight hundred responses and said, can you summarize this for me? And it kicked back in twenty seconds, like themes ideas for me next year challenges, people fit top quotes. Like I was just like, this just saved like three hours of my time. This is crazy. So like every time I find a new way to use it or like, you know, I typed in the chapter about email and was like, how

But it's saving me a lot of time, which I'm here for that.

So I love that survey use example. That is super smart.

Yeah.

I just came back from a school tour where they're like, we don't assign much homework because we find that the kids just put it all into AI anyway, so it's like, wow.

I know it's wild. I don't know how it's gonna all turn out, but we're just starting.

So awesome.

Well, tell our listeners where they can find you, as well as say the name of your book again so they can all find it.

Yeah.

So the book is Uptime Practical Guide to Productivity and Well Being. And I'm on Instagram Laura May with an E. Martin and also my website is Laura May Martin dot com.

Awesome, thank you so much for coming on.

Thanks, Yeah, thanks for having me.

Well that was great, so exciting to hear Sarah and Laura May Martin talk about productivity in ways we can do things more efficiently. So, Sarah, a question from a listener, how do you decide how often to travel to see family or balance wanting to have time with just your nuclear family versus your extended family.

So how do you think about this?

Yeah, this is a challenge I still have and I'm often like rethinking are we doing it well? But our current approach is that we tend to take like three core nuclear family vacations a year most year, so something for spring break and then something for summer, sometimes something

Yeah, well, Florida is a great place to visit, so you at least have that going for you and get out of Philadelphia at some point between December and March. Is you know, you don't have to twist my arm. I'm always happy to come down to Florida during that time. So maybe I will be on the plane with Sarah's extended family and that will be great. So yeah, it can be quite a challenge to coordinate with lots of people.

What do you think those would be?

And then like try to lock those in and then you know, have a certain number of days for that, and then you can choose maybe two other things that you're doing at some other point in the year that are just you and your nuclear family.

And then when the extended family's like.

Oh, well, we wanted to see you guys, we have this holiday coming up, we're like, and I'm so excited because I'm going to be seeing you over Thanksgiving doing this and can't wait for that, right, And it's not pitted against so much the exact other trip that you were taking on like the Fourth of July or or something like that.

So yeah, I mean, we.

See my family fairly frequently, but it's always day trips because most of my family lives in New Jersey, so it's relative and even my younger brother lives in upstate New York. But it's about three hours away, so it's often something they can either come overnight or even come for one very long day. So we tend to do that around holidays, and then you know, my husband's family, we probably have to plan that a little bit more

I feel like more people with largely remote jobs have been working in travel into their jobs. I've been hearing that more and more where it's like, no, I am working, but I'm only working three days or I'm flexing my hours that week, and so our family is going to go. And that actually can be nice because if the grandparents are active and can kind of care for your kids while you're working. They're getting quality time. But then in the evening you can all have dinner together whatever. I

Yeah, I feel like that hasn't really worked out for me to do, I said, I wind up chasing the little ones around and extended family gatherings. But maybe that will change at some point as Henry becomes a little bit older. Well, this has been best of both worlds. Sarah is interviewing Laura may Martin, the author of the new book Uptime, the productivity Expert at Google. We will be back next week with more on making work and life fit together.

Thanks for listening.

You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you.

Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.

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