Hi. I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker.
And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer and course creator. We are two working parents who love our careers and our families.
Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. From figuring out childcare to mapping out long.
Term career goals.
We want you to get the most out of life.
Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura.
In this episode, I'm going to be talking with the authors of the book Raising Calm Kids in a World of Worry, Ashley Graber and Maria Evans, an exciting take on how we can raise kids who are a little bit more, you know, not flying off the hand, not
so anxious about everything. I know, there's been a lot of talk about children's mental health these days, and with the access people have to smartphones and all the clickbaity stuff that's out there in the world, the headlines that are designed to make you feel like the world is falling apart, how can we raise resilient kids? So excited to talk about that topic, Sarah without getting too personal, what are some of the things that have been kid worries in your family?
Yeah, not naming any specific kids here, but thankfully having a few helps. So definitely one of my kids, and really only one of them, has always found social situations hard. They might worry amusing vague acusings pronouns. Yeah, they might worry about it beforehand. They might struggle during an event,
especially when it gets started, So that's one. Another kid has definitely found like night to be scary at certain points, like are there in I heard a noise, I don't like the dark, I knew my door open, et cetera. And it's actually quite interesting to see how different my kids fears and anxieties are, so they're definitely individual to each.
Yeah. Absolutely, the fear of new social situations. I mean, I think that's kind of a broad one. Many humans are are afraid of new social situations, like are you wearing the right thing? I mean, who knows? I probably am never wearing the right thing. So eventually one just moves on from that word doing well in school? Doing well in school? Like is this test going to go well? Am I prepared enough for this assignment? Going away from home?
Like to a camp where you don't know what the situation will be.
You know, will you be.
Changing in front of people, where the showers look like, what are the bathrooms look like?
These are things can make people anxious.
Joining a new athletic team, particularly if it's a sport you haven't done that much in the past, so you'd be on the newer end of things. And however you may be naturally or not athletically. Not knowing the skills as well as other people can be a source of anxiety. But you know, all very human things I think for kids, for adults as well, totally.
Are there things you've.
Done to sort of help kids with various anxieties and particularly kind of like broader world ones.
Yeah, Like when it's news type stuff, I feel like making sure that we kind of emphasize the rarity if it's some sort of like bad natural event, like, Okay, this is really scary, but it's unlikely to happen. This happened, and it's terrible, but that's why it's so newsworthy, and to kind of calmly talk about like how we would deal with it if something like that.
Did happen in our area.
I don't know, just trying to like tone down, take the tone that the news has and turn it down like about ten notches.
Yeah, well for something like you guys who you do get evacuated for hurricanes for instance, and hurricanes cause a lot of headline anxiety because you know they're coming, yes, or like a week ahead of time or.
For the news for the news cycle.
Yeah so, but being even pointing out like most are not that big. Most are your house is built to deal with them, that you're enough inland that you're probably going to be able to cope with at least some of it. But if it is a really scary situation, we have evacuated before, this is what we do, This is our plan, this is where we go, this is what we.
Take with us.
And things like that I think are helpful or even just like sort of common anxieties like maybe they have friends whose parents lose a job or something like that, to say like, Okay, well, what have we done to prepare for like a financial setback or something like that, what we have savings or we have insurance for X, Y or Z, And just explaining those things to kids that it's like many of the things that can go wrong people at least somewhat think through.
I mean, there's obviously things.
That you've never even considered that could go wrong, but a lot of the normal things that go wrong are at least on the radar, and if you are a sort of generally prepared person, you've at least put some things in place to deal with those realities.
Yeah. And I think focusing, as you said, like on like this is how we could would help or this is how we can help others or help ourselves, like focusing on the constructive side of things rather than the catastrophizing side of things.
Yeah.
Yeah, and maybe limit news consumption. I mean as much as possible. I mean that's, you know, keep the kids busy with other things, because if you are at cross country practice and doing the robotics project with your friends, you are not watching the headlines on how the world is falling apart, and that's probably a good thing. Yeah.
They don't need that yet. They don't need that yet.
All right, Well, let's see her some more about raising calm kids in this world of worry. Well, Sarah and I are delighted to welcome the authors of Raising Calm Kids in a World of Worry to the programs. So and Maria, welcome.
To the show.
Thank you, thank you for k Yeah, excited to have you guys. So, why did you decide to tackle this topic.
This is such a big topic that is only growing in terms of need, in terms of parents needing to know how to help anxious children and kids needing help themselves.
Yeah.
Well, Although, the interesting thing about calling it a world of worry is because in some ways the world may be better than it was in the past. I know we've all seen the gap between statistics of like random crimes you know now versus even like thirty years ago or something, and yet people are more worried about it now.
So what's going on? Why is it this.
World of worry, even if it's not always born out by the data.
I think there's so much more pressure on kids today and on parents today, and the pressures are changing, what the expectations are and what kids are expected to do and achieve, what parents are expected to do and achieve, and social media in this twenty four hour news cycle that happens always feels like the biggest reason why people are really aware of so many more things, and children especially are aware of things perhaps before they should be.
Yeah, No, we definitely hear that from a lot of our listeners that kids just have an awareness of things, and some of it is what other kids are doing and what's out in popular culture, but also even just the news. So I wanted to talk with you guys about when scary things happen in the news, how we should deal with this with our kids, and perhaps you can even get into your safer parenting approach with this.
But for instance, we're recording this not too long after there's the horrible plane crash in Washington, DC, and I know a lot of people saw it the news, and a lot of kids probably saw it and said, wow, there are kids like me on that plane. Right, So when your kid mentions something like that, how should we handle that as a parent.
So one of the first things to know is that you really want to have a very strong relationship with your child so that you can be the person who
they come to when things like this happen. And that's a lot of what our book is about, is how to really forge that very strong connection and that open communication so that when they do inevitably either see it on social media or is when they're scrolling through YouTube, or when a friend tells them at school, because again, that information is so quick that they do come to you and say, hey, what is this or I'm scared or I heard this really scary thing and I don't
know what to do with it, right, And so the first thing that you want to do is find out what they do know and debunk any misinformation because that happens very quickly, especially when kids are talking to other kids. Right, So that's the first thing is do a lot of listening. What did you hear about that? What do you know? And Ashley, maybe we can go back and forth a little bit with this topic. Is it's a big one and it's really important.
And yes, and curiosity around what it is they're bringing, versus jumping in and teaching in the moment or fixing something that might be scary to them. Really bringing curiosity to the situation. And as Maria said, there often kids will go to school and they'll get misinformation and so if they come home and talk to you as a parent about it, to really just listen and ask questions, what are your friends saying about it, what are you
hearing about it? What do you know about it? And then only to speak to what they're bringing to you. One of the things that we see often is over explaining and sharing a lot of information and letting a child just be in that moment. So if they're not into talking about something or unpacking it completely, to kind of go with their cues on that to really see are they seeming overwhelmed, are they seeming not bothered by something in the moment, or are they kind of blowing
something off. That can be a place where it's confusing to a parent because they might say something like, well, that doesn't matter or it doesn't matter what happened to those kids, And to recognize that is something that is a defense that's happening in the moment because the information might be overwhelming to them.
Yes, and then for the kids who are actively scared about it, which does happen? Right, I heard this scary thing? What if that happens to me? We know a few things that really work well, which is that you want to really focus on and lean into the safety measures
that we have in place. Right, So with a plane, talking about the safety precautions that are there, talking them through what would happen if they were on a plane and there was turbulence and then really leaning into where they can help others because kids really thrive, and really
being able to channel those fears into supporting others. We just had the fires in LA and a lot of kids whose homes didn't burn down and who didn't have to evacuate, were still really crying and worried, and a lot of families channeled a lot of those fears and feelings into helping right standing outside, giving donations, writing to kids, and it was really a remarkable community of because.
It sounds like one of the things that might help children with anxiety. I think you guys had mentioned this is feeling like they are part of something bigger than themselves.
Yes, absolutely, because kids, we sometimes forget that their view is very limited in that you might be talking to a seven year old who's been only in the world for seven years, and so all that they know is that this scary thing has happened, and so if you can help them, and this goes for when scary things happen or at other times in life, that helping them to see that there are people around them that will help and helping them to see that there is something
that they can do in the moment really does help them to feel calmer in the world. And doing that with a child shows them, oh, I have this person or these people in my life that I can also fall back on in community something that we talk about
and that is such an important aspect. And not every parent has family around them or has people that they know well around them, but yes, helping them to see that they are something part of something bigger will help them to feel calmer in the world and help assuage some of the worries.
Absolutely, it probably makes an adult feel a little bit more calm as well.
Well, we're going to take a quick ad.
Break and then I will be back with more from the authors of Raising Calm Kids in a World of Worry. Well, I am back with Ashley Graber and Maria Evans, who are the authors of the new book Raising Calm Kids in a World of Worry. We've been talking about getting kids involved in community help efforts as a way to make them feel part of something bigger than themselves, making
them feel a little bit less anxious. But I wanted to go back to something you talked about earlier that one of the most important ways you can make sure that a kid is coming to you when they are feeling anxious is to have built this nurturing bond with them, And some of I'm sure people are like, well, of course, we all love our kids, you know, hopefully they feel
this way. But I'm sure it's not totally automatic. So I wonder if there are some practical things people can do if they want to give themselves that a plus for at least trying to build the nurturing bond.
Absolutely, we have an entire chapter in the book which is it's sort of like our therapist's secrets for how to connect with kids in the best possible way and get them to open up to you. And we just transformed it into parenting tips that really work, and it's called Engage like a pro very fun, and so we teach parents, first of all, the roadblocks to what parents tend to do that tend to stop kids from sharing,
which most parents do. So if you're a parent and you're listening, we can almost one hundred percent guarantee that you will relate to this one. But most parents like to fix, so when their kids come to them, they have every positive intention to help fix the situation, and so they come up with solutions or they come up with ideas of well why don't we try this, or well, why don't you think about it this way? Other parents tend to maximize the reaction, right, like, wow, that's really terrible,
what can we do? Should I call your teacher? Write things like that, and then other parents, in an effort to make things better, they tend to minimize, which is helping kids see that what they're worried about is not that big a deal or what they're bringing is going to be totally fine. Right, And so we teach parents all kinds of tips on how to respond in a way that keeps the conversation flowing.
I love that, Maria, and I would add to that too that being able to talk to your kids and talking with your kids and building this relationship means that you have so many opportunities to do it. It isn't
just built in one interaction. Or if your child is a little bit older, it doesn't matter that you might just be starting today to do some of the tips that we recommend that if there's little things over time, So if your child comes to you and they're feeling scared or anxious about something and they say, well, this is the topic I'm bringing to you to circle back around to it again and to bring it up again.
And even if a child says I'm not scared about that plane crash anymore, or it says I'm not thinking about the fires, that you still are showing them that you're in it with them, in it with the worries. And we have a whole chapter on building self esteem and this idea that whatever kids are bringing that you you don't have to love it, but you can be
in it with them. And this is a little bit torturous to most of our parents, because if it's dinosaurs or certain kind of music, that you have these little opportunities to say, tell me about that music, or tell me about this thing that you're interested in. And you have so many opportunities to build connection between the two of you, or the three of you, or four of you, or however many children there are, but individually with them
that there are so many opportunities to do it. And if something seems like it's going badly, you try to interact, You try to bring up something and a child blows it off that you just kind of go on from there and try again and bring up something again at another time, whether that's something scary or an interest that they have.
Well, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about even in scripts we might have because you know, yeah, a lot of people do want to dive in and fix the problem or say, oh yo, you don't need to be worried about that because of X, or you know again like or I'm going to go tell your teacher right now. So let's say a kit comes and says, I think I bombed that math test, you know, like,
I think I did terrible on that. What sort of a script you could say after that that wouldn't be immediately leaping in to fix or minimize or maximize that issue.
So we'll do even better for you than a script, which is the best method that we use all the time in our parent coaching groups and with our parents. So we want you to remember this term called echoing. Okay, So the picture that you're in a cave and you've called out a word and what you hear back is something similar but not exactly. Okay, you scream out a sentence and you hear back a few of the words. So this is what we coach parents to do, and this is the thing that really gets kids to open
up it works like magic. So when your child is telling you something, what you want to do is paraphrase what you've heard and say it back with the same level of emotion that they're bringing, or slightly lower. So let's say they say, oh, I got a really bad grade on my math test. You can literally say back, oh, you got a bad grade on your math test. That's it. And what you will find is that just by echoing it back, they will say more. You don't have to
say anything else. And then they're going to go, yeah, and I studied really hard for it, and I just can't believe it. Oh, yeah, you're really disappointed because you studied really hard for it, And you can almost go verbatim. If you slightly change it, they will just keep on going.
Now, what about kids who are a little bit more reticent to open up, because I guess in that example, I assume that the kid comes and tells you that they got a bad grade on the mar which is not a given. We've all got people in our lives who are a bit you know, have fewer words coming out of their mouths.
I wonder if there are some ways to try.
To get people to open up and start sharing with our questions to ask or things to do for kids who are a little bit less likely to communicate that way.
One of the key things that for a parent to pay attention to is the settings in which a child will open up in. So sometimes we want to sit down and have a chat, and a child that, as you said, is reticent to do it, doesn't want to sit across from you and get into a deep conversation about something. So maybe you find that when you walking down the street that they open up, or if a child is sitting in the backseat of the car and then on the way to school, that they might open up.
We often hear parents will say they go to say good night, and they're really ready to go to bed, and then all of a sudden and the floodgates open up and a child will start talking. But to pay attention even in that time, which can be so much harder late at night, but to pay attention to what are the settings in which they might Could it be
that they're cooking, you're cooking in the kitchen. Could it be that you're sitting on the couch and your child is sitting on the floor coloring or playing with something, and that's a moment when they will open up. So really paying attention to just kind of studying it for a little bit of time. What are the settings that they will.
And remembering that kids they're not used to conversing the way that adults are, so it's very common when you pick up a child from school, the adult instinct is to power through a bunch of questions. How is your day, did you sit with friends at lunch, what did you have for lunch? How much did you eat? Where the class is interested, what was the worst thing that happened in the day. And most parents will tell you kids never answer or they go good and that's all you get, right,
a one word. So you might as well save that barrage of questions, give them a little bit of space and just talk about something random like a fact, Hey I read that Wales do XYZ Did you know that? And start there and see if eventually some of that daytime experience comes out, like Ashley shared, awesome.
Well, we're going to take another quick ad break and then we'll be back with a little bit more about raising calm kids in a world of worry. Well, I am back talking with Ashley Graber and Maria Evans, the authors of Raising Calm Kids in a World of Worry. So here's the question, why is it that people open up when they are either in a are not looking at each other I guess, or a separate thing with late at night? I mean, what is it about those scenarios that tend to lower the barriers.
Well, the barriers that as Maria was saying, that sometimes there's an expectation that a child is going to open up and they're going to talk about what it is that's on your mind in that moment, or there's something important that you want to share or that you do need to talk about, and a child just isn't opening
up in the moment. And so the thing to be paying attention to with kids is that they will step into something in the amount of time that they can and so really being able to kind of step back and say to yourself as a parent, this just isn't the moment, This isn't the time that they are able
to or ready. And Maria made mention of this that often after school, we want to know how is your day, what went on, what are the things that happened, and a child might be overloaded in that moment they might be kind of done with interactions and done with communicating because they're overstimulated or they're tired, and so paying attention to when it is, but also that kind of being okay if a conversation doesn't happen in the way that we hope.
This is also an important tip for adults. So if you're trying to have a conversation with a friend or a partner, you may find that you'll have a much better and easier time having them open up if you're walking side by side on a walk or along the beach or something where people can look off to the side, then sitting straight up right in front of each other. We talk about face to face versus side by side, So be strategical.
Yeah, go on a walk with somebody if you've got something difficult to talk with. What was also just the idea that it might not be the moment, but this is not all the moments. You get that most relationships are more of a marathon than a single moment in time,
and so you can probably come back to it. I wonder if there are ways you can talk about practical You said that palm is contagious, and so if Palm is contagious, and we would like to be calm people modeling that behavior, dealing with our own anxiety and healthy ways. What are some habits we can put into our daily lives to do that.
Yeah, this is a tough one because the whole title of the book is raising caalm kids in a world or worry. So there's a lot going on. And if you're a parent who is busy, which will a parent is not, then it is hard to have an expectation that you're going to be calm all the time. What we know is that if we try practicing things a little bit at a time, that it will add up.
And so being able to take time to go work out every day may not be completely possible as a way for somebody to expend energy and bring calm into their family life and into their relationships. But can they find little moments over time that they can do something that might help. Can they notice? Can a parent notice in a moment if they're feeling activated. Because in the same way calm is contagious, so is fear, and so
it's okay you can model that. It's okay if you're getting upset about something, it's not okay to scream and yell and throw things around, but if you're noticing that those things are rising up inside of you, to model that and tell your child that I'm feeling activated and
I'm going to take a minute. And as long as we circle back around, if we say to a child, I need a break in this moment, and then we go take a break, what that does is allows our nervous system to calm down and allows our brain to come back connected so that we have all parts of it working. And so there are bigger things that we can do, and I don't I would imagine your listenership doesn't need to go through self care tips. But there are all kinds of things that we can do in
bigger ways. But then those smaller moments are also important. And we're big proponents of mindfulness and meditation and mindfulness get the words get sort of overlinked across one another. But we're not saying necessarily to sit down and meditate. But in a moment that you're feeling activated, can you bring mindfulness to the moment? Can you notice the things around you? Can you use some of your sensations, your hands, your touch, your eyes, your smell to bring yourself back
in that moment to a sense of calm. And we have a whole chapter called setting the Tone, and that if we are bringing a calm tone to the situation, then we are helping children in the moment to feel calmer themselves. As you said, calm is contagious.
The other thing, just very practically for parents is that they tend to really overload themselves and just even once in a while taking an inventory of what have I taken on? Am I volunteering a lot at the peace? Can I let go of just that one meeting? Can I give myself ten minutes instead of reloading the dishwasher?
Can I give myself that time? We have so many conversations about parent guilt and taking time for yourself, but those moments really add up when you allow yourself even that five minute break in the morning to have coffee uninterrupted if you can find it, or go into the closet and just have a two minute break and breathe.
Yeah.
Well, I wonder if there's also ways to sort of limit the amount of perseverating we do over some of the world of worry.
Stuff that is around us.
I know one thing that was helpful to me in kind of the early days of the pandemic, for instance, or if there's a huge news story that I find that I am just hitting refresh over and over again, despite the fact that my hitting refreshed does absolutely nothing to solve the problem. Right that just you know, saying, Okay, I'm going to check the news for ten minutes a day.
And that's enough to be an formed.
Citizen, but recognizes that me, I am not going to be able to do much about this other than what I can do in my own community or you know, giving to charity and things like that. So I mean, am I on to something there? I mean, would you recommend kind of limiting some of those inputs.
Absolutely, that's a really really important point. You know, we're a psychotherapists, and so we'll give you sort of the more therapy angle, which is our brains have sort of a misperception that if we focus on information over and over that we're going to have more of a sense
of control or that something different might happen. But really, when you are experiencing and we teach kids this too, is that when you're experiencing something as sticky in your brain, like a sticky thought or something that just won't leave. It's important to go back to that mindfulness practice, which is, ah, I'm having a thought that's bringing me a sense of anxiety. Can I notice that thought is there? Can I let
it pass? Can I do something else with my hands or interact with the world, something with my senses to help bring myself out of that. And actually reducing consumption of media is a huge part of that, because every time you refresh or see something new, that jolt comes right back.
And I would add I love what you said about finding it an actual time to do things like that. There's a thing called office hours that we could set an amount of time to watch the news. We can also do that with children with worry. We can say, Okay, we've got this amount of time to think about this and to talk about it, and then we're going to set it aside until the next day. And what it does is it does is we're saying, it does help
us come back in those moments. We're not over activating ourselves over and over and over again with the same thought or with the same refresh, as you said on the news, but allowing ourselves a little bit of space from it. And the key thing in this is that our nervous system gets activated, and when we get activated, we have less of an ability to find a moment of calm when our brain and Dan Siegel coined this
term flipping our lid. I think we kind of all know and can visualize what that means, But that actually means that our prefrontal cortex, the part of our brain that helps us to make decisions, is not there to in that moment. And they know from science that it takes twenty minutes for our brain to get reconnected again.
So if we can get a little bit of space, as you said, from those things that are scary and do like what you said, step away for a minute, really give yourself a minute, and that will help in all the things we've been talking about. It'll help a parent to feel better and calmer and better able to take on what's happening. And it helps a child to feel less activated and scared, and especially if they're already worried child.
It's amazing.
All right, Well, thank you guys so much for sharing all these practical tips. We always end these interviews we have a segment called Love of the Week, which is anything that you are enjoying right now, I can go first, so I can give you a minute to think about it. I read a lot of stuff electronically, just because it's so easy to get ebooks and to have a band
phone with me. Like if I'm sitting with my five year old because he's having trouble going to sleep, for instance, you know, I can read on my phone, which is I can't do with a paperback. So I tend not to buy many paperbacks, but I did the other day because I happened to be at an airport.
Bookstore, and you know, I really enjoy it.
It's fun to read something paper because it feels like a little vacation from everything else going on.
So read a paperback book is my love of the week, Ashley. How about you.
I am presently obsessed with tennis.
Oh okay, yes, And so I would say that the thing that is really the love of my week or the joy that I'm having is the moments I do get to step out on a tennis court.
And I have just taken it up recently, so I wouldn't say that I'm that great, but I love the practice of doing it over and over again and just improving a little bit and getting outside and getting a little sunshine on my face.
Awesome, awesome, And Maria, Laura.
I'm going to piggyback off of yours, which is this week I've really been enjoying. You might know, there's a series in the New York Times called Tiny Love Stories, and there are these tiny, tiny little snippets, like I think they are about four or five sentences each where people just talk about and distill the love that they have for either a parent or a partner, or sibling
or child. And it's really heartwarming, and it really just takes me into the moment and reminds me of what's most important.
Awesome.
Well, Ashley and Maria, thank you guys so much, and everyone be sure to pick up your copy of Raising Calm Kids in a World of Worry.
Thank you.
Well, we are back some helpful tips there on how we can raise resilient children who are focused on moving forward as opposed to being completely anxious about headlines and things like that. So a somewhat random question that a listener sent in said, I could ask the class, or we could answer, but when did your kids start cutting their own nails?
So, Sarah, I don't know the exact age but I know that Cameron will do his own and he is eleven and Genevieve will not, so it's somewhere in there.
I think.
I feel like fourth ish grade, at least in our family, has been when like a lot of the personal care stuff just gets really taken over by the individual.
And I do think sometimes you.
Have to make sure they have the right tools. You can demonstrate, you can give curtique, like oh, I think you cut your nails a little too close or something like that. Like I think that you can definitely give feedback. But and I'm sure one age is not the right answer for all, But that's kind of been our general ballpark.
What about you guys, Yeah, I don't know.
This is actually probably one of my least favorite kid care things, and I feel like it's always me, Like I'm not sure the children's nails would ever have been cut if I were like not around. But it's uh, I mean definitely, I still have to deal with Henry's and I don't do it often enough because I hate doing it, so some of his nails get a little long.
I do believe that it's around ten and eleven that a lot of the body care stuff starts being more of the kid's individual concern, like they start thinking about it a little bit more, or like not wanting to change in front of you or anything like that, you know, wanting to not have you run a bath or turn on the shower or anything along those lines. And so a lot of the other personal care stuff starts happening
on their own schedule then too. But I will point out that I'm not sure some of my kids ever really cut the nails because I have a couple of nail biters.
So it's like a problem that solves itself.
Oh man, I have definitely gone through phases of nail biting. I've been really good, though I haven't been there for a long time.
So yeah, good for you, Good for you. So I'm not sure if that answer was helpful or not. But nail biting, as we've been talking about it, so that's not going to take care. I don't know what's going on with people's toenails.
I just don't ask. We're in a northern climate, we're in socks for like ten months of the year.
Like, I don't see people's toes. It's who even knows. I see it gets dealt with one way or the other.
Well, feel free to let us know.
Yeah, yeah, I want to hear other people's like when kids started cutting their own nails and if you've got nail biers, we maybe we can hear about that too. That has to do with this episode of being anxious and a world of worry, or I don't know, maybe people do it for other reasons. But in any case, we will be back next week with more on making work and life fit together.
Thanks for listening.
You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you.
Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.