Hi.
This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker.
And this is Sarah Hartunger.
I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are two working parents who love our careers and our families.
Welcome to best of both worlds.
Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life.
Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This episode is airing in mid December of twenty twenty three. Sarah is going to be interviewing doctor Vanessa Carroll, who is the CMO of the Mary Bridge Children's Hospital in Washington State. I'm very excited to hear from her about women in medicine and what it takes to be a leader in a hospital system. So, Sarah, maybe you could tell us a little bit about it.
Yeah, I don't want to give any spoilers. It was a really fun conversation, but doctor Carroll has four children and has gone through various different phases of your career, so it was interesting to learn about how leadership can be incorporated at different phases and how different kinds of experiences can kind of come together to give you a new, unique expertise that really kind of helps you truly fulfill a leadership vision later on. So that was really fun to learn about.
Yeah, because for people who are considering leadership roles, and I know we have a ton of listeners who are, it's maybe not something that you have to like come right out of the gate and say this is what I want to do. Like, I mean, there are different paths into leadership over the course of your career, correct.
Yes, And I like to think about how you kind of get various nuggets along the way that might be really useful someday as you kind of helped to lead the next generation of people who might be doing something that you were doing, you know, boots on the ground previous to that. So I guess it was just interesting to hear how the different phases of her journey came together, and again how experience and says that you might not know could be contributing to a leadership track could actually
come in very handy. So those were my biggest takeaways from the conversation and I really enjoyed talking to her.
Yeah, and she also shares, you know, the things we always love, like a day in the life. I mean, what does it look like to be a day in the life of somebody with four kids and a big job. I know, we always love hearing about that, right.
Yes, day in the life is not going anywhere. We cannot get enough. And she's got both kids in college and kids who are a little bit younger, so it's kind of fun to explore what that phase of life might look like in a leadership type role.
Exactly how we're all about the big age spread at least I am over here, well at one in college, one in elementary school. Yes, that is exactly how things will go around here. Well, let's go ahead and hear from doctor Vanessa Carroll.
Then, all right, well, I am so excited to welcome doctor Vanessa Carroll to this podcast. Now, we had recorded the intro prior to this interview, and we thought we were going to have the illustrious doctor Barbara Time, who we are going to talk about. She is amazing, But we ended up having to do a little swap due to some technical difficulties. And when I started talking to
doctor Carroll. I realized that she and doctor Thompson have a ton in common, have faced a lot of the same challenges, and I'm so excited to welcome you to the show.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate this opportunity, and yes, I'm sorry doctor Thompson couldn't join, but I will do my best to represent the CMO dynamic duo.
As I'd like to call her, because she is amazing. Oh.
I love the fact that there are two of you and that you have a CMO CEO dynamic duo at your healthcare.
System that is like totally amazing.
So you are currently serving as the chief medical officer at the mary Bridge Children's Hospital. I'm guessing that's maybe not where you thought your career was going to end up. Give me the whole give me your career journey. When you thought about potentially becoming a doctor, did you ever see this angle of leaders upcoming?
And like, how did things evolve?
So what a great question and a wonderful, exciting journey that I'm excited to kind of share because it wasn't quite as planned out, but that's kind of how life works out. I think some of the best opportunities kind of just life presents itself. So I am born and raised in New Orleans, Louisiana, trained in the Deep South.
I started my career with a health system known as Oshner, and it was kind of in the wake of Katrina, so as Oshner was evolving as an organization who now is quite present in that area, so was Pediatric hospital Medicine.
So it was an incredible opportunity.
And why I like pediatric hospital medicine is it had the acuity at that point, it didn't have the fellowship requirement, And essentially it was I wanted a family, and I really wanted to be able to balance that time with my children and also feel challenged personally professional.
And it was a perfect.
Marriage, so to say, in the sense that I got to do two things I love.
Now. Was it easy. Absolutely not.
I won't even pretend to, you know, make it sound like it was this glorious easy thing.
It required work, but having a great support system.
You know, my mom actually ended up watching my children for a lot of their childhood. We did have nanny's, you know, because there is call and responsibilities, and my husband does work, so trying to balance multiple careers was challenging. But it was wonderful, and then I kind of realized after about a decade, this is awesome, But what next? My kids were growing up, responsibilities were changing a little bit.
So I ended up going to work for United Healthcare in order to learn about utilization management, because I said, the business of medicine, it's really something that I think as a physician I kind of lacked. And I would have case managers come and say, oh, that doesn't meet and I'm.
Like, doesn't meet what? That person sick? What are you talking about? They need to be here and they're like, no, no, that's not what it means.
And I was like, Okay, well I need to understand more because at this point I had other physicians and I really felt like I wasn't representing their needs well because the complexity wasn't being identified as probably as it should have been. So I said, all right, this is my chance to go behind the curtain and meet OZ. So let me go ahead and understand how this utilization works.
And it was an exceptional experience, and I think it was a first time in my career that I realized there are multiple perspectives, right, We're all coming together for patients and families. We're just doing it differently. And again another amazing experience, and said, wow, this is I get it. This is a component of healthcare. But I wasn't ready to I think go down that pathway, which obviously is
it's a great one for people who choose it. It's exciting, you're learning a ton, It's just a different arm of kind of medicine. So then I said, all right, I've already done kind of the academic I've done. Now mutilization, I need to get a community perspective because I don't I feel like I'm missing the other side of the coin. So I ended up starting at Coutney Health in Cordelaine, Idaho, which is probably one of the most beautiful places on the on the earth, So if you have not been,
I highly encourage it. Exquisite place, incredible people, just an enormous opportunity, and I really got to see health care from a different lens as someone building out an in
patient pediatric unit there. And I can tell you when I actually met with the CEO, because I was like, why, you know, community hospitals, while they might care for a lot of patients, why would they want to invest in a you know in patient pediatric unit when a lot of healthcare is shifting towards more centralized approaches, and the CEO when I asked him that very pointed question before I moved my family twenty five hundred miles away, which
now included four children, two dogs, a guinea pig, and you know, a houseful of things, I said, help me to understand the why, and he said, well, it's because it's the right thing to do. And I said, all right,
that's who I want to be a part of. So I was there for about five years, just had an incredible opportunity, and I will say a community setting allows for I think, more career advancement, more opportunities as far as exposure, and it was really kind of an exponential path for my career, and in turn then ended up have the opportunity to go from a clinical division director where I oversaw hospital surgical and some neuroscientists, so more adult focus, but still had my peeds there that I
had started with, and then made it to mary Bridge Children's Hospital where I recognize pediatrics is my passion. Kids are amazing, You're serving the future today.
Really it's been a great marriage. So it's been a journey.
Though, that is amazing.
I have so many questions, and I also feel like we need to clarify a few things for our listeners, because our listener vase is certainly not I mean, we have plenty of health care providers, but there are all sorts of people doing all sorts of things listening. So just when she said community was a great opportunity for advancement, I think you're referring to versus perhaps like traditional academic medicine.
Correct exactly exactly. Academia is amazing, and it's so rich and it's just such a.
It's just an incredible experience. Community is just very different, and I think if you're in one perspective, you have this assumption that it's very similar. And I will tell you it, outside of the medicine, it's very different, different resources, different stakeholders, different engagement. So both wonderful in their own right though, and absolutely essential to healthcare across the country.
Yes, very very true.
So I also want to start a little tangential here, but how old were your kids with each of those moves, and how did you handle that and what did the conversations look like? Because you said your husband works as well, so like weighing the risk benefit of moving the family primarily for your role.
So what a great question.
So I'll start by saying, when I was in med school, there was this conversation that if you want to have children, do it in your fourth year. It's perfect timing. You know, it's an easier rotation. So my husband and I did that. The part they forgot to tell me was that when you're an intern and this is before duty hours, congratulations, you've got a four or five month old. So that was maybe not the opportunity I had hoped for.
But my daughter's amazing.
I mean, they are incredible, just really has brought so much joy and knowledge to my you know, just experience, both as a mom and as a physician. So totally grateful. Along that line, the next one came during a resident which fun, very very fun, definitely add some complexity to it, But on this one I ended up taking a little time off, and the type a personality in me felt a little bad about doing it because I was like, oh, I'm slacking, But in reality that time with my daughter Daisy,
I would never trigued. I mean it was this is a marathon, not a sprint. So if you can capture those moments, don't feel guilty about it, you know. But if you can't do it, I understand. I mean their bills to be paid, their responsibilities, but if you're given that option, that would be ideal. My two sons that came later, I was staffed so very very different. I will tell you it gets easier as you get older. So just something to keep in mind. And they've been incredible.
And what's funny is that three of the four want to be physicians. So obviously the lifestyle hasn't been too terrible, but you're right, the moves have been challenging because for kids, that's where their friends are, that's where you know, their relationships are, that's where their experiences are, and everyone has these expectations about where it's things are going to go
for them. So when there's a change, there's a little bit of that removal of that opportunity, and that becomes hard no matter.
How old you are. Young old.
So I can tell you on this last move, it was especially hard on my teenage son who's in high school, and we really had to work through that and explain the why. Lots of conversations, but he's doing great, and it's just you know, I like I explain to him it's another opportunity for him to learn how nimble he can be, how he can reinvent himself, and just how amazing this country is because the experiences are so diverse.
Oh that's awesome.
Yeah, And in some ways it's true that it gets like harder the older your kids get, but what a cool experience for them to really experience two different places and like you know, understand maybe two different cultures as they move forward in adulthood. So I can see that that would be kind of like a mix bag. Okay, so now we're in the present. We've kind of taken you through training one baby in med school, one baby
in residency, and then two after the fact. And you did say that it gets easier, but then your body's also older, so like you know, it's like a seesaw and.
You have to train one for the other. So that's super interesting.
I had one in fellowship I won, and one in residency but couldn't get pregnant because probably because residency, and then had the other two as an attending. And I do agree with you that the resources available to you when you are earning an actual paycheck. My husband is medical as well, so our paychecks coincided. It did make things a lot easier, but it was sweet the first time too. All Right, Sorry, that was my digression. So we're gonna actually take a very quick break and be
back with some more questions in a moment. Okay, we are back, and now we're kind of up in the present, as we said, And tell me about how is this You are now in like a sea sweet position. You have moved up through the ranks, You've done kind of different things along the way that were really interesting. What has been the hardest part about that for you? And maybe talk about how if there are commonalities that you and doctor Thompson, your colleague, have kind of faced together.
As you said, you're like a dynamic duo as women in leadership at your organization.
Well, you know what I really appreciate most about Multiicare and Mary Bridge recognizing the need for physician leadership. And that's where doctor Thompson and I really are an incredible partner because of the fact that she has that commitment to the outpatient side of healthcare, while I have that commitment to the inpatient side of healthcare. And while they're similar,
they're very different. And having that be acknowledged and recognized by an organization that says no, no, this is so important to have physician leaders really deep in the operations, everything in the strategy, in the you know, basically culture,
in the fine answers, I mean, you name it. That is really a testament because a lot of organizations have just one CMO and I can tell you if you're covering any kind of network or spectrum of services, whether that's clinics, urgent cares, off campus ds, micro hospitals, hospitals, it's really hard because you're going to be spread a little bit thin, so the depth of I think what
you can assist with or support is probably different. So having doctor Thompson to really own funnel her knowledge as a pedzender chronologist who really knows what makes clinics high functioning, and she's a machine when it comes to epic and smart phrases. I mean, like, oh my gosh, her efficiency. So having her in that space is incredible because then I have this hospital medicine side that between the two of us, though we come together on some of the
specialties like surgery where they cross both sides. GI cross both sides, So how can we support them in each environment with clarity but also advocate for what their needs are from that medical lens. So it's really exciting, and I have to say I applaud the organization for recognizing it because there aren't very many places. I mean, cmos are rather expensive and they require support, whether that's executive assistance or project managers. And when you start to double that,
that can be a significant lift. So really, but I have to tell you, if anyone's listening has ever thought about it, a C suite, highly recommend because the deliverables, the outcomes, just your physician culture is so much richer.
Oh, I believe it.
I mean the fact that you're able to kind of have influence on so many people that are working with you to achieve aims and really influence the culture and the fact that you have two women doing that, to me is extra special.
Has that come into play?
Have you mentored women who are really really happy to see someone who knows what they are going through above them? And also, I guess the flip side, have you come into any challenges when you are faced with maybe with a boardroom full of mostly men, how has that gone for you?
You know, I think that's such an important call out, and I think it's really about recognizing you want to have people bring out the best, whether you're assigned female at birth, assigned male at birth, and really just harness their strengths and really promote them and figure out what brings you joy, because we all have our own individual joy.
And I think having that understanding that.
Especially in today's age, both moms and dads and aunts, uncles, they want to be engaged and they want to have time, and I think really being thoughtful of that work life integration and meeting people where they are because I'll be honest, I've recognized some physicians that I'm like, oh my gosh, you would be the most incredible leader, and they're like, you know what, I really appreciate that, but I'm not there right now. You know, my kids are young. I
want to be present. I'm not ready to take that on. And I think that self awareness is incredibly important because if you love what you do, it's not work. But if you feel like it's an extra pressure, I think it can be really hard. So whether that's a mom or a dad, I think my goal as a CMO is to recognize people's strengths, harness them in the capacity or to the level that they're able to lean into, and really kind of just recognize how special we all are,
but also really acknowledged diversity is essential. Like, if we have a bunch of people think in the same way, we're not going to really move the needle. We need, you know, women, we need men, we need young, we need older, we need experience, we need brand new to the market. So I think I'm more thoughtful about not necessarily women or men. It's everybody coming together and really just kind of supporting where the individual is.
And if you run into someone who you think would have great leadership potential and say, well, right now, I have kids, Like, I guess I'm curious because like part
of me wants to push back on that. I mean, there are some leadership roles which in some ways afford you more flexibility, especially at kind of like the upper end, and someone may count themselves out and need encouragement to be like no, like we're in a culture where you know, you still get time off or we cover for each other or what like how do you handle that when you see someone promising but kind of not wanting to accept responsibility, maybe not not based on facts.
It's such a hard conversation. I'm not gonna lie because you want to be respectful and not aggressive, because you also don't want to be in a leadership role that you are using your position to force a decision, because that is a huge You've missed that moment. So it's really about having I think the relationship and having the conversation and saying, well, tell me what success looks like to you.
How can I.
Support where you want to go? And I again, like we talked about healthcare, it's a marathon, not a sprint. Your career has different chapters of the book, and how can I set you up to be ready for that next chapter? So I feel like if I can start to provide little nuggets and knowledge and little projects or opportunities that they are specifically engaged in, then that starts
to snowball and there starts to be more engagement. But You're right, the timelines are a little bit sometimes challenging because I'm like, oh my gosh, you could be such an incredible asset. Just really advocate for your patients, advocate for your department. Allow this opportunity within our system. But then I have to pause and realize, but that's.
Not what they want right now.
And I would rather have them love what they do now and then love what they do in the future instead of you potentially run the risk of burning them out and having that sour experience of what leadership is like. So I think it's really just listening. And as a good leader, I think I can't stress that enough. The leaders I've had have all listened really carefully to what I had said and then help me on my journey.
So I would love to be able to one day say I was a you know, a good leader and did that for others.
And I love the idea as you said, like even if someone's not ready at one given time, that doesn't mean that in two years that same person might be absolutely ready. And like to plant the seeds that like, hey, even if this isn't what you want right now, you still have options. You still could grow in these different ways. So I like the idea of an open door.
Well, and like you said, every experience is a learning opportunity, even if you have some challenges or it's perceived as oh, that project failed or whatever you want to call it, Oh my gosh, we come away with such knowledge and you learn to you know, the PDSA plan, do study act. It's just you were like, well, I'm not going to do that again. So even if it's not the experience you would hope for, you can pivot and figure out on your next opportunity what are you personally and professionally
going to do different? So I think there's a win no matter what. It's just recognizing does that person feel the same way as you do? And I think that's some of that's just experienced.
No, that totally makes sense.
All right, Well, how about physician and healthcare provider and we can even extend this beyond that, But like professional with a family wellness, that is a hot topic, especially in the physician space right now. I feel like I see a new statistic every day related to burnout or
related to job dissatisfaction. I think I got an email in my inbox yesterday that was from health Grades and it was like seven reasons doctors are leaving medicine, and I a lot of them had some value to it, like too much time spent on the EMR things like that.
So how do you think about these topics, What do you think some of the answers are and maybe what are some of the specific challenge you've seen facing mothers in particular, since that is a lot of our audience based women who have careers, who have families and really want to enjoy both.
So that's one of those things that keeps me up at night. I'm not gonna lie because especially whether it's healthcare, whether it's law, whether it's engineering, whether it's anything on the spectrum. I mean, work is a huge responsibility and I know we all wake up and we want to do our very best. If you don't love what you do, it is challenging and feeling that you're not being successful
in your job nor being successful in your family. I do think plays a really big role in how people just burn out, and specifically in referencing healthcare, we know we're going to be over one hundred thousand physicians down by twenty thirty four. I mean that's an insane amount of money. So it's almost like we have to stop the bleeding. We have to be able to understand how do we restore that joy because I mean you look at a med student, I mean they're so excited they're
so elated. They're just enthusiastic to take on this world of healthcare, and somewhere along the path, like you said, life kind of catches up and it's a little bit a little bit draining at times. So the physician wellness or whatever professional wellness is, really it has to be
a focus or our workforce won't be sustainable. And I think the ways we can do that is acknowledging where people are giving them space to have influence, because again, burnout isn't specifically only because of the tasks, or only because of finance, or only because of leadership exchanges. It's all of them put together, and it's feeling valued. So how do we help people to realize they are so valued?
And that's also being respectful of work life integration. And I can tell you my work in my life has almost been like a sign wave, you know what I mean, Like there are times where I'm doing really well, and then there's times where I'm just fumbling the bag miserably, and I think it's okay to get I would love more and more, especially mothers who are still trying to have this transition between being one hundred percent, you know,
the family's support to being one hundred percent the career person. I think that's a really hard bridge because so many of our dads are staying home and managing families and really trying to find what brings them joy in different ways that are different than what has been the traditional norm. And I think that is so wonderful because we can all find our happiness. How do we do it together and integrating that balance, and it's really going to be
having a great support system. I think you can't do it alone. You need to have some resources to kind of allow you to recognize you need a break, either from work or from the family support. So how do we do that, How do we navigate that? How do we give that space? Because to your point, wellness is essential and if we are always feeling like we're not where we want to be, that is going to lead
to more challenges. And that's a hard way to live when you've come in with such a light and a brightness and you don't want to see it blown out in any capacity. So I think having that awareness that work hours are going to look different, responsibilities are going to look different, leadership is going to look different. How do we make this a sustainable journey instead of a fast sprint that just leaves everyone kind of exhausted at
the end. So I think this is something we really need to spend a lot of time on and figure out how do we rekindle that spark that love and also recognize if you're really happy at home, you're going to be probably pretty happy at work, and how do we make that symbiotic energy flow.
Ooh, that's an interesting concept, the idea that the happy you are at one place, the happy you or you probably are in another. I hadn't really thought about that, but I can think of some examples kind of on either direction for that of people that I know and.
Have worked with.
And that's that's a really interesting concept, I guess, because we're all the same person. So someone that's happy at work and feels sustained goes home and is refreshed and then can enjoy their family more.
So that's super interesting. What about you?
What do you like to do for fun? What recharges you? What do you do for your own wellness?
So my recharger is absolutely my family. I mean, I have four amazing children, and like I said, they teach me more every day than any book or magazine I might read because I think they're just so authentic, and when they're sharing their experiences or challenges, it's so true to the hard. So any opportunity I can meet them where they are, I am there. So I have now become an anime enthusiast because that is where some of them were. So I enjoy watching anime with my children
when that's one of their objectives. If I have my choice of what activities we're going to do as a family, I love snowscan, I love water scan.
I'm a huge runner.
I also really just enjoy like a good book, you know what I mean, being able just to sit down and immerse myself, either in fiction or kind of even self improvement, like I'm a big Brene Brown fan, and just really appreciate every time I come away, I feel like I've learned something professionally and I've learned something personally.
So I cannot stress how important it is I think for people to acknowledge they need that recharge space because if you just keep running at one hundred percent on either venture, either that's your personal or your professional life, you just kind of burn out. So that goes back to that wellness conversation is I hope people find that balance, because there is a balance, and like I said, if someone finds it, let me know, I'm still trying to find my own. But uh, I think that's the fun
of it all though. It appreciates those moments when you do have that downtime and you cherish the people you're with.
I love that.
Can you take us through a quick example day in the life. Our listeners love this, They love logistics. I don't know if your kids are still young enough to need any form of childcare, but if so, definitely include that. Like we've had lots of interesting learning about different no pair setups and all that kind of stuff. So take us through a day in the life. Although I'm sure as a leader they're probably all different.
Well, I have two daughters that are in college, so when they come home, the day in the life gets far more exciting. But I still have my two sons. So when I wake up, I actually have three dogs and we have an axe a lottle, which if you don't know what an ax lottle is, google it most adorable creature you'll ever see. So get up, I feed our animals. I then get myself ready tell my boys, you know, it's time to wake up, because even though there's teenagers and they have multiple alarms, I'm sure most
of you realize sometimes those alarms are not effective. So I get them going. And my husband's a great partner because we kind of tag team on this when he actually works from home, so we're super blessed in that respect that only one of us have a commute. And then I'll obviously get myself ready head into work using my work starts with meetings, and I know that's kind of one of the transitions in healthcare as you go into leadership, you lose some of that patient facing time.
So it's a little bit of a balance and a little bit of a challenge because I can tell you, like, for instance, Monday, I was clinical in the hospital, so my day was actually getting up and then see patients for about a ten hour shift and then catching up on literally one hundred emails that had kind of progressed over the day. So that's probably not the best day in the life to highlight, but that's a real day.
Most of the.
Time, it's going to be meetings, which, like I said, it's not so much about a specific item, it's a lot of exciting ones about what is our strategy in the urgent care space, what is our plan for outreach, what is our plan for medical education?
You know.
So it's a lot of really high level but it really fills your cup because it's this hope of what is to come if I'm not on service all round in the hospital and really get a chance to kind of see the people that are doing the work, you know, how is their day going, thank them for what they're doing, because this is, like you said, it can be a grind at times, and recognizing that we all have our
own lives going on in the background. Just acknowledging you are so important and I can't thank you enough.
For what you're doing.
I think it's just that validation that many of us need. And then I'll go through and I'll probably get a couple of text messages from my children telling me something super exciting that derailed the day a little bit. And then I'll keep going with some meetings and come home and see my sons.
They'll tell me about their day.
We'll kind of eat dinner, and I think having that time around the table, if people can do it, I know, not everybody's able to, but if you can really focus in and have those real conversations, that time is invaluable. And then my boys kind of scatter off and do their homework or talk to friends, while my husband and I kind of take that time just to kind of connect and you know, kind of debrief on the day and also prep for what's coming on the next day.
So every day is different. But I really feel fortunate to be in a leadership role while also having children who are now reaching adulthood and realize that they're doing pretty well, because in those moments, I'm not gonna lie as a working mom, it's like, oh my goodness, you know, how is this going to turn out? And I just want to tell your leaders and your listeners and your friends and your colleagues it will be okay. Just stay strong,
realize it's okay to ask for help. More importantly, please applaud one another for a great job doing what they're doing, and recognize that we're all in this together, and just be kind.
That is awesome. That is so awesome.
We're about to close, but one last thing, and I know you're not a regular listener, but we do always have a love of the week, So I will go first. I'm going to share mine in your honor, and mine is my Patagonia puffy down sweater that I actually wore to soccer practice last night because it was like fifty five degrees and I was freezing and that's cold to us. So I was inspired when I was in Seattle to buy one and now I just wear it every time that I go anywhere slightly temperate.
So that is my love of the week. What is your love of the week?
Oh man, Well, so I'm right by Seattle and it has been raining. I'm not even lying for like multiple days. So my love of the week is my Columbia raincoat right now because it is definitely worth every penny it is based on because my gosh, it is just wet. But I appreciate, like you said, being able to show up as well as I can each morning.
So that's my love.
Awesome.
So, yes, Reindeer is our theme for the week and cold weather. Well, thank you so much, doctor Carol for coming on. This has been such a pleasure. I feel very inspired.
Ah, thank you.
I appreciate your time and thanks for all you do and spreading this support because it is a team effort.
Well that was fascinating. Great to hear about leadership roles and medicine and what we can learn about that. So today's question is in one version of when We Get a Lot. So this person writes in that she is interested in working part time, was debating a shift to an eighty percent schedule. She says, I would love to just be off on Fridays and work a four day week. However, Laura has said she doesn't recommend it, so can you
share it your thoughts? So first let's get to Sarah's thought, because Sarah actually has worked an eighty percent schedule, So we'll hear from the trenches on that.
I do currently work a sixty percent schedule.
Six eighty percent. And there's a difference.
Oh, I have done eighty, I have done ninety.
I have done a.
Lot of ninety seven point three? Why not?
Yeah, well, ninety was like getting a day off every two weeks to podcast specifically, so it kind of worked. But sixty percent's been great for me. And here are my criteria for when I think you can do a part time job effectively. You have very clear production objectives and you have very specific coverage for days. You're not going to be there, I think if either one of those is nebulous, don't do it. Yeah, So like examples that work. My example, I see patients Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays.
There's no expectation that I go to my inbox or do clinical work on Tuesdays and Thursdays. I'm lucky to work in a field where there's generally not any outpatient type emergencies that need attention before the next day, so this works well. And then if you're a shift worker, like if you work in the er, you can take a specific percentage of shifts and work part time pretty well because when you're on, you're on, and when.
You're off, you're off.
If you are certain times of law, and maybe especially if you shared a position so that you were truly not on call on days that they were working like you were, people knew they should only contact both of you, and you wann't to touch your inbox on a Tuesday. If you don't work on Tuesday, and you have like a lower billable hours goal that's proportional, then that might work. But when things get nebulous or there isn't coverage, I
think you can very quickly get in trouble. And that is where Laura will come in with the rest of this answer.
Yeah, yeah, I mean again, in those situations where it's very clear that you are on or you are off, then it can work. I would say, however, that there are probably a great many people in full time roles who are only working eighty percent of the time because
they are coasting the rest of the time. And I understand that, and it may not be a very attractive proposition, but the truth is, like, what people do in a lot of jobs is incredibly nebulous, and so how are you judging what eighty percent of that amount of work is. My guess is that in many corporate roles, you try to set something like I want to be off on Fridays, but they're like, well, we have your biggest clients coming to meet on Friday. You can't be off on Friday.
You're like, okay, fine, I'll do that. Or you know, your colleague is like, look, look, we have something that's happening. You got to dial in for this meeting on Friday. Or you're checking your email because because you are, because like you know, stuff's coming in and if you don't see it, you're going to be behind on it, and so you wind up working somebody else's equivalent of one hundred percent, only you are definitely taking a pay cut,
right like you are taking a pay cut. If you don't know exactly how many hours full time is, it is very hard to determine what eighty percent is going to be. And so you know, some places are like, oh, well, we all work sixty hours a week here, and they don't. But you're like, oh, well, I've got to work eighty percent.
Then if I want to work like a forty five hour week or WHATND No, No, don't do that because it's gonna like they're only working fifty as well, and they're just claiming to work sixty and so you're going to work just as much and you're gonna get paid less. So I think you're better off being in a situation where you have some control over your time and flexibility, because it is often not the exact number of hours worked,
it is how much control you have over them. So if you're like, hey, you know, actually i'd like to go hang out in my kids class on Tuesday morning this week, and you can make that happen, then you don't need a day off. You just need to like not take a call before eleven o'clock on Tuesday morning, and if you have work you need to do, you
finish it up Tuesday night or something like that. The problem of trying to have an exact day off in nebulous sorts of jobs is like, well, maybe all the stuff you want to do in your personal life isn't always happening on Friday. Like you know, you want to go on Tuesday, but then you're gonna have to take time off for that, but the Friday is already you know.
It's just you want a job where you have flexibility and autonomy, and then it's fine to just work full time and arrange your hours around life as it is. So anyway, that is my soapbox on it, and I'm sure plenty of people have had it work well because they have very good boundaries. But I think a lot of people are in situations where there are less clear boundaries, and so going part time will not necessarily help you achieve the work life balance that you're going for, but
it will make you earn less. I would also say, you know what are you using that time for? By the way, too, because if you are going to do a lot of people like, well, we're so behind on the housework. The house is a mess, so I need to work four days a week. It's like, okay, so you're trading off. You're likely hire paying work to do this unpaid in your case, you know work, Like why is that that's not you know you can hire somebody
else to do that? Like why don't you work full time and pay a housekeeper versus having this economic transaction that just doesn't make sense of like not being paid or higher rate to do unpaid labor that somebody else could do. Now, if you're going to spend it with your kids, awesome, Like that's a different matter, right because that is maybe something that you want to invest more time in. Or if you have a creative project that you are doing and you know for sure you're going
to get that day off to be in that creative headspace. Again, that can be a great situation, but for many people that's not the case. So make sure that you know what you're getting into.
Yes, all incredibly valid and even as someone works part time, I see all the validity and what you said.
Right, well, this has been best of both worlds. Sarah's interviewing doctor Barbara Thompson about leadership in medicine. We will be back next week with more on making work and life fit together.
Thanks for listening.
You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can.
Find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.