Try things out. See what works for you. You will make mistakes. As long as you're honest with your team about what you're trying to do and your attempt and you're acknowledging those mistakes, you'll be okay. This is Best Manager Ever. I'm your host, Annie Reilly. Do you ever wonder what your direct reports say behind your back? We sit down with the most successful and beloved leaders in the startup world.
who are all endorsed by their direct reports as the best manager they've ever worked for. We talk to their teams and collect feedback and stories about how they show up as a leader. And then we sit down with the leaders themselves to unpack their playbook. Join us for leadership lessons and inspiration to level up your own skills and become the best ever leader you can be.
Hi there, it's Annie, and we are in for a real treat today. I'm joined by Saif Salama, who is currently the Senior Director of Product Marketing at Finax. Safe launched his career working at Google and then quickly pivoted into the startup world, holding marketing roles at Zynga, Affirm, and AngelList. And most recently, he was head of product marketing at Carta, where he led the team that nominated him for this podcast. The fun twist here is that Safe's team at Carta...
was his first time ever building and leading a team. So in this conversation, we cover his journey as a first-time manager, including mistakes he made along the way and advice he'd give to someone just starting out. And I am just so impressed that in Safe's very first attempt at leading a team, his performance and impact were so strong that his team was... psyched to nominate him for this show.
pretty remarkable. And I'll let you hear more about SAFE's leadership directly from his team. But first, I have to give a special shout out to these folks for their energy in the way they shared feedback and stories about SAFE. I talk to a lot of people about their manager and I truly love all the conversations. And there was clearly something special about this group and it left me feeling...
almost jealous of their work together and their bond as a team, which is really a testament to SAFE's hiring and leadership abilities. Here's a little bit more about it in their own words. Save as a manager is just a wonderful human being. He is just a really authentic leader. He leads with integrity. He leads by example. He cares very deeply about the craft of product marketing.
And it sort of permeates throughout the entire team, which encourages people to like just deliver their best work. But I think more importantly is like he actually deeply cares about the team themselves. And so everybody just kind of feels respected and it makes him so belong.
I was really excited to nominate him. This was my first great manager. This was the type of manager that changed my entire career trajectory. Like where I go forth will always be because of him, because of the amount of effort he put in. to making sure I understood the PMM craft. And it was just a level of dedication to a subordinate I've personally never had in the past. We talked every day for at least probably an hour a day, getting true constructive feedback on stuff I was working on.
he treated your work like it was his own work face His biggest superpower, I think, is that he has this really unique ability to both be a very, very caring leader. incredibly empathetic to you as a person, like he deeply cares about you, your happiness, but at the same time, he will push you a lot.
He will make you better. And what you think is good, you'll put it in front of space and you'll be like, Oh my God, I cannot believe I thought this was a good job because he will give you feedback and he will like make you a better person. So this is a unique balance. And now we'll dive in with Safe, covering his journey into management and lessons learned as a first-time manager. At the time, Jane Alexander, who was leading...
the marketing team was rebuilding it, building product marketing. I was at AngelList. There's very few people who understand that world of private markets and product marketing. She reached out. It made sense. Went to Carta and the idea was to build out a tiny team reporting to head of product marketing. And as things started happening, I started working on some of the businesses.
James saw something in me, believed in it, nurtured it. And then I led product marketing at Carta for two and a half years. Went from managing just Milena and one business line to eight across four business lines. It all happened very quickly. I'd say the first six months. There's a lot of trial and error, I'm sure. as much as she's very nice and will say nice things about me. I'm sure I've made a lot of mistakes and then kind of took some of that learnings and scaling it with a larger team.
have to do a little bit of learning on the job and looking around and seeing what are some trends of successful teams and successful people and trying to adopt some of those. When you were at AngelList, you were interested in becoming a manager and a leader because you actually have nominated your manager from AngelList, Helen, for the show. And she's also going to be on season two of Best Manager Ever. And she was saying to me that she remembers as you were departing, Angel Liz.
and getting ready to go to CARTA that she was having conversations with you about. managing, what that means, good reasons to do it, good reasons not to do it. Did that play a role in your decision to go to a different company? How did you think about that step in your career and preparing for that moment at Carta? Helen was very helpful in making me focus on the right reasons to want to be a leader.
as opposed to like it's the money or it's just the next thing in my career it was very helpful to see people successful as her share better ways for you to be chasing something like that and make sure that you want that chase and you're not just doing it because You're a high achieving person and you're like, that's what I should be. It also changed my perspective on how.
The advice I got from Helen was helping me understand the reason I wanted to manage. I have this skill set that I enjoy talking about and I enjoy. teaching, that's a good reason to start building teams and functions around that. And because I had a specific perspective on things and how we can operate, that was very helpful. beyond that wasn't necessarily like prepped for what that meant.
What were some of those surprises that were different than what you expected or the things that came up where you thought, hmm, not prepped for this in the day to day? Early on, I didn't realize that having that job means you're not doing the job. Like at some point as the company scales, your job is no longer a product.
so to go back the job was pitched as we're peers our first six months we were working hand in hand yes She reported to me, like, it was two PMMs, $70 million business at the time, and we're just doing things, no real structure. But as I started doing other things around the operations of the team and reporting and managing up and across and unblocking and all of that, that's not a product marketing.
job that's a completely different role and i think that's the part that at least personally i under I'd love to hear more about what that was actually like, because a lot of those things, people don't even know they're part of the job. until you're in the seat, then you have to do them. If I want my team to have resources, I need to be effective in...
building these relationships across the company and advocating for these resources. These things aren't just going to magically drop out of the sky for us. A lot of people become very surprised when they realize it's not just doing the best work. that gets you the most attention and resources. You actually have to build an additional skill set around talking about what you're doing and recruiting resources. That's just one example of many, many.
How did you figure all that out? So definitely didn't figure it out. Still unfolding. Yes. And I would be lying to myself to be like, yes, in the two and a half years I've managed. I figured out all these hard questions that all managers and leaders are still trying to figure out.
I made mistakes that impacted my team in certain ways. There are some stuff that I figured out, which is things about how to motivate the team, how to plan better operationally, like how do you build learning and tension and all that. I feel fairly comfortable in those areas or some other areas.
I still struggled early on. The resourcing bit was a big one. How to show impact of the team, especially in something like product marketing, where it's broad, unspecialized in certain areas, very specialized in others. So there's a little bit of tension there of advocacy and all of that.
where I haven't done a great job at, I would give myself like a C minus on that. And there are other areas where I'll be like, oh no, this is the stuff that I was able to figure out, whether by talking to people or reading or observing or whatever. As you were building the team, one of the things that I heard from all the direct reports I chatted with was the caliber of the people you brought on.
pride in each person being on a team of that level and that quality and feeling like, wow, I am surrounded by some incredible talent and I feel almost honored. I have this position on this amazing team. a note that they felt so connected to each other and so bonded. Hiring is one of the hardest things. for managers and leaders to get right, let alone for someone to do really well when it's their first time at that.
I would love to hear what you experimented with there and what playbook you implemented around building that team. The stuff that I think helped me a lot build the team is something I stole from Angel. They have a framework called competency-based hiring. Very specific. It is a big grid with like 52 attributes. And you have to identify what are the things that matter to you and a candidate who will do with this.
so like for my team it was intellectual curiosity i do as a pmm care that you're very curious that you want to get into the details that you like exhibit So I did a lot of competency-based hiring. I would pick these three or four competencies that had to be in every single PMM. It was customer obsession, intellectual curiosity, and some level of analytical.
The fourth one, I always kept open for whatever type of business they were going to be on because Carta had very mature businesses like the cap table business. And we had some businesses that were zero to one. So the type of PMM who does zero to one looks slightly different than the type of PMM who's like a keep the lights on type PMM and there's more in the enhancement speed.
What would be an example, say really quick, if somebody was in more of a zero to one business, what could have been that fourth criterion for them? Like Michelle, who was a zero to one PMM, one of the biggest things she spiked on was if she has no direction she will create her own direction to move things forward and i think that's very important in a business
where when it's zero to one, you still don't have product market fit. Like you need people who want to figure out how to get the next thing open. Right. So I cared about that. And of course, we do a bunch of other things and there's a homework and all that. Generally, the competencies spike very quickly. And that way you can then say, who makes us? The other question I would always ask in our panels when we're debriefing, especially from the PMMs who exist on the team, does this person make us?
And if they say no, then that's a no. Because when we're such a small team and we're all learning from each other, I want every person to be spikes on something that we don't have. We have people who spiked on research and they taught us how to do really good. Juana and Michelle are great at that. We had great storytellers. Charlie was a great storyteller, right? So anytime we talk to someone, can we learn something from them? And if the answer is yes, I need to know what that is.
That helped build a very early bar for it. You kind of... have to fit in in an odd way, because the OGs of the team are operating at that level. And the people who just came after them are operating at that level. So you come in and you're like, oh, they all work like that. This is the team I signed up for. And doesn't mean, by the way, that I've hired perfectly. I've made bad hiring decisions. Everyone does.
This is the stuff that I would say would take on forever. I'll never let go of competency-based hiring or like thinking about like how to design the job. The part that I definitely would not do is single screening call. I was screening cameras. So even the phone screen, I would do myself and I would have my recruiting partner, Sophie, with me on the phone so she can hear how I pitch it because it mattered a lot to me to pitch.
for this team and this job. And I did it way too many times. I also had a lot of Kylie, who also led recruiting, was like, at some point she was like, what's going on? Like you were saying no. You were like. No, you were talking to a lot of people and just immediately screening them out. Correct. And what was important to you about the pitch? I am curious. Like, what was the piece of the pitch that you really wanted to control or preserve? For this specific situation, it was three things.
One, people really underestimate what it is to work at a company like Carta. I mean that from a product standpoint. It's an accounting piece of software. It's all numbers, CFOs and fund managers and tax and audit. So it's very important for people to understand what we do and understand it really well, because if they don't, they will not be successful in how they. So I tried to even use the screen to answer questions. It's a good indicator of the type of person.
it's very important for you to meet me early on because i'm not for everyone there's people who don't want to be part of that culture and third was i've just found that most people go into manager conversations getting ready for an interview And for me, it was always important to set the tone of. I just want to answer what questions you have about this job because that's how we're going to work together.
So that was very important for me early on. It sounds like that also tells you about the person because you get data on them based on the questions that they ask you. And you also get a feel for that dynamic. because if you're gonna run the team, it's gonna be a back and forth. I'm gonna give you a lot of ownership. I'm gonna give you a lot of room to run. It's not gonna be this transactional, like me give you directions, you go execute, right? You're gonna have that kind of.
And so it sounds like you were trying to mimic or create that type of environment very early on. So you could get almost like a vibe check with them about what it would be like to work together. Yeah, there's stuff that I've started seeing.
i was like clear red flags would not do that again or like these are the right people to move forward and i've gotten better at it once i calibrated with my recruiter it became much easier but early on definitely Just a quick break to let you know that we have an awesome learning community and group coaching program where you can take part in the reflection, learning, and skill building that we do each week on Best Manager Ever.
My company is called Fort Light, and it's a place where leaders from scaling companies come together to build skill, make meaningful connections. and thrive and win in their roles. I'm building Fortlight based on my experience as an early employee and operator. When I had big plans for my growth and impact,
and felt like I had to figure things out on my own. And the reality is you don't have to do this alone. We bring together high potential peers and experienced coaches and mentors like our best manager ever guests. to share their playbooks and provide support. Our goal is real, lasting relationships
useful support, and concrete tactics that members can apply immediately to become the best ever versions of themselves. If this sounds like a good fit for you or for a leader on your team who you'd like to invest in, check us out. We're at fortlight.com. That's F-O-R-T-L-I-G-H-T.com. Okay, back to the episode. I think it's really helpful for especially newer managers to see that the choices that we make and the things that we do, they often have this good intention behind.
So there was probably some good intention or reason behind you maintaining control over the process that felt good. I think that is where I looked back and were like, OK, could have been less controlling there. But the intention. was more of a can someone describe the job and the product in the same ways that I want to yeah that mattered to me because that's kind of the biggest part of the contract What was the downside of the choice that you made?
Way too much of my time. The return on that type of investment wasn't as high as I thought it would be. And that's part of my learning also as a first-time manager is where you spend your time matters way more. than when you were as an IC. Yeah. And it sounds like if you could go back and do it again, knowing what you know now, you would have maybe taken the first. X number of calls with Sophie from the recruiting team, had her here the way you pitch it.
aligned maybe earlier on on what exactly you're screening for. What are those red flags? What are those green flags? I'll give kudos to Kylie, who was Sophie's manager at the time and our lead recruiter on the team. she gave her success what's happening and i told her she's like no show sophie what needs to happen and then sophie will take care of it then you can get the second batch so yeah we worked it out But someone who's had the experience had to come in and be like, okay.
You're not making this that much better. Yeah. And I think that's such a valuable thing to point out because for many people who are sitting at. startups in particular, but honestly, any org where you don't have someone in the mix who has that expertise. We can let these things go on for way too long if you don't have a Kylie like tapping you on the shoulder and being like, this is not the way it's supposed to go.
So it's valuable for folks who might be holding on too long to anything, whether it's the phone screen of a recruiting process. or any part of their job that they did as an IC, that now that they are a leader, they should probably be letting go of. But because it makes us feel safe to have the illusion.
of control, in reality, you end up holding yourself back because you're spending time on things that are not the highest leverage. And that means it's something you're saying yes to inevitably is also something you're saying no to or not opening yourself up to try. So what did it free your time up to do when you got out of those phone screens? What it helped me do is come to that realization of where you spend your time actually matters. But the thing for me that was.
big during that time is my entire career has been around do something do something do something give something to someone get a gold star right we love a gold star yeah right That's always been, here's the thing I did. Do you like it? And then you enter this new phase and there's no booklet. I always say when I first moved to the U.S. One of the biggest learnings was, oh wait, making friends as an adult in a city where you don't know anyone is hard. There's no manual.
And I think it's the same when you become a manager. No one gives you a booklet and goes, and here's the 17 pages you should read. And you got. For me, that was that moment where I was realizing, oh, my work center is completely changed from do something, do something, give it to someone to make sure that people do things.
that they're supposed to be doing at the best possible way and quality and get them the resources to be able to do that that was when my brain went like are we really spending the time in the right ways and then of course that for me usually means a lot of phone calls to mentors and friends being like, okay, so I just had this epiphany. Can we talk about it?
Yeah, it was almost like that was the aha moment when you realized you're actually playing a fundamentally different game. It's not just like oh, I have unlocked the next level of the same game I have been playing. It's like, nope, actually the game has changed. Right. And also, what are you doing recruiting? You should be recruiting, but that's not your role in that part of recruiting.
The phone screen is not the hill to die on. And it is such a beautiful example because a phone screen feels good. You check it off the list. You feel in control of the process, right? I'm seeing everybody who's coming through. This is such. a big thing for people to learn, especially when they're newer managers. The thing that sometimes feels good lets you have the illusion of control and lets you check something off your list.
is not always the best place to be spending time. Okay, there's another very common question that I get from newer managers that came up in my conversations with your direct reports. And it's about how you both push. and maintain a very high bar of excellence. and implement a standard on your team that then everyone can fall in line to.
while also maintaining connection and a positive team environment. And that is a line that is really hard for many people to walk. And what I heard from your direct reports is that you had... an unbelievable seemingly natural ability. to integrate these things where everybody knew that they were doing some of the hardest work of their career and they were the proudest and most satisfied.
So can you talk about how you navigated that, especially as a first-time manager? I'll say that they helped me see that. Remember the conversation we had earlier around competency-based hiring? This is why it matters. This is why I cared about the screen. I'm just setting the tone. This is what you're going to get here. The whole high standard, low standard thing, it really wasn't a high or low. It was like, this is our bar. Do we want to do?
So one of the things I've tried to move away from people come to me and be like, do you like and i always go like who cares if i like i'm not the audience let's actually go through It's not about my checkmark. Who cares about what I think? Is this doing the job it's supposed to do? That was very important to me. And something I always talk to the team about is I want you to do work that you would put in your portfolio.
So when I get asked, do you like this? I always go like, do you like it? And usually that is a significantly easier conversation to have because then they go, this section, I'm not sure. Great, let's talk about it. Let's talk about this in the things that matter versus getting my approval to get to the next step. I think that's where all our learning moments come. I love that idea of taking the project or taking the deliverable or the goal and saying, what is the job that we want this thing?
that we're creating to do. Because if I were a newer manager worried about my team feeling micromanaged or being too aggressive with my standards, that question would give me some freedom, sort of distance it from. me to your point and my beliefs and someone trying to like get the gold star from me and make it about the job to be done.
which is something that we do a lot for products that we're shipping, but you're actually talking about applying that same framework to every deliverable that we create or everything we ship within the team, even if it's... an internal document, for example. I haven't heard that explicitly. And I really like that. Like, is this...
doing the job that we need this thing to do at the level of excellence that we want to be producing as a team. Yeah, spot on. I want to give Milena her flowers here because she took the brunt of it early on. of what it is to put a piece of work out there. And for newer members of the team who came in and had to go through that first cycle with me. Having someone who's tenured and who has the trust of the team and the org tell you like, this is not bad. This is fine.
everyone wants the gold star right so when your whole career you're getting the gold star and suddenly someone's like wait no do it this way and this way you're like oh my god all my work is bad and that's something i had to learn is how to do that without making people feel like
Having someone on your side on your team who's bought into your vision and willing to do that for you is definitely a blessing. Yeah. And I think that's something that leaders who are building teams that are scaling very quickly. should pull out of your playbook, right? There is something to replicate there where you and Milena... hashed it out, set the team standard, figured out how all of these things were going to work. And then...
she was able to help kind of reinforce that with her modeling, but also by reassuring the team. And so if you are someone who's building a scaling team, I think what I hear there is get yourself a lieutenant. Oh, you know what's funny? It wasn't by design and I wouldn't do it again by. Don't force it. Cultures happen. They're not forced.
That's my belief system. And I say that because Milena did it. She was my first hire. And then there was a couple of other people like Charlie and Quentin were coming from other sides of the team, came in and they wanted to do good. But then Michelle joined us nine months later and she then started raising the standard and helping us. And she bought into that. It was less so about like a quote unquote lieutenant.
then having a team that believes that you have their back and the work will get better. And that is worth pursuing. If your team doesn't think it's worth pursuing, then it's not in your culture. Have a bar, define it, communicate it, and hold everyone to it. Yeah. And what I heard is that the end result is that the team feels... incredibly proud and motivated to be part of a group producing that.
Your team ended up being viewed and valued across the org. There was a sense of when we were presenting, we knew our work was going to be exceptional. And we felt proud of what we were putting forward and the impact it had. And I think that that was really cool to hear because especially, again, those new managers who are reluctant. to set aggressive goals, right, for fear of burning people out or being disliked. We had fun. Yes, high bar and stressful nights.
and safe annoying edits were there writing and communication diatribes at 11 p.m. one night someone on the team pulled me aside and they're like all right maybe we need to take a step back those existed but also we had a lot of fun we did have We went to lipstick making class in New York one time. I think product marketing has this weird trauma bonding level of...
Everyone has the same pains and we had a bunch of launches that would be happening and people would be stressed about it and someone would get the other person a cake to make them feel better. So people supported each other. It was a good. I would say it would be a failure on my end if we had a weekly team meeting where we didn't like have a good But that's fine. I deserve it. Yeah.
Well, actually, the lipstick making made me think of something else that came up on the team, which is several people noted that for quite some time, you were leading a team, quite a large team of all women. In the startup world, in the tech world, in the VC-backed company world, that's not all that common among people I know, right? And people also made a note that it was one of the most diverse teams at the company. And I felt curious about that. What was that experience like?
for you as the manager. I would say it was intentionally diverse, unintentionally all women. When I was first doing my hiring, I would just look at the people who are applying. I know product marketing is not that popular, but I've seen product marketers from all over the world. The pipeline did not look the way that I would like the pipeline to look. So we had a conversation about it. It was like, here's what I'm looking at. Here's the skills I'm looking for. I would like to see a little bit.
And then when we were interviewing, it was all company based hiring. So it was kind of like we just needed to open the top of funnel and then it became a little bit easier. I would say personally I didn't have a challenge dealing with that at all. We just generally had a very open and respectful culture.
I think when things happen around you in the world, you kind of have to be aware of who's on your team, regardless, man, woman, black, white, Asian, whatever it is. There's a lot of lives that exist outside the four walls of work. The team always knew that. But I don't think that was more or less because they were all women. Yeah. I am curious how you set that tone because I do think that's something that a lot of leaders struggle with, especially right now when there's like a lot happening.
Having an environment on the team where your manager is available to talk if you want to, but it's not required and there's no... pressure around it is a nuanced line to walk, right? Especially in a world where we have some tech companies saying no conversations about the outside world at work. And your team did mention that you guys had like a microculture on PMM that felt unique.
in some ways distinct from the broader company culture. So how do you walk that line and how do you even think about the way that you're doing it in your new team right now? This is one of those things where I felt comfortable with. So when it comes to these things, there's also a level of comfort on what you want to do and not want to do. Personally, you are going to get saved.
100% of the time. I don't know how to be a different version of this. And part of that same contract that we talked about when you're getting hired and interviewing is I will offer myself up to the team in the ways that I am willing to be. And I will show up in the ways that I want other people to show up from an authenticity standpoint or openness standpoint within its limits. Whether the team wants to reciprocate or partake, that's up to each.
And I never held it against anyone. So some people wanted to have a good personal relationship. Some people did not. And you have to be okay with that. When it came to the dynamic of... being open within the PMM team. If I want to set that standard that means my work needs to be at that standard as well. I can't just demand that standard and deliver less.
Personally, I felt comfortable being very open with my team about things that were going on in my life that impacted my ability to show up at work in the ways that... was I never wanted to suddenly go from like, this person was always available to us was helping us do all these things is not here is not there and like built that tension of
what's going on is something happening it's not a good way to operate and these are all adults we all acknowledge that we have lives outside of this this is not an episode of the office we all live outside of this So here's what's going on in my life. Here's how it's impacting you. Here's what I need from you. That was helpful from a tone setting standpoint.
But when things did not involve me, whether it involved the company or policies or things that are happening politically, and there's a high level of tension or it's hitting our team one way or the other, and I have something that I want to say, I will share it. the team. Then I would usually have an open slot if we want to join. And some people would join and sometimes we'd sit and talk and sometimes we won't. But I have found it.
significantly easier to get your team to understand who you are and where you're coming from and your context and background if they're getting a real version of you. But you just got to be comfortable giving that. I tried different versions. you'll always get some similar. version of me wherever the
Yeah. And a few things I'm hearing there are like, one, figure out the version of it that you're comfortable sharing when something is coming up that's particularly impacting your work or what people can. Because in the absence of information, people will make up stories, to your point. And so you give them the information that they need to understand how to work with you, what they can expect of you. And then you create the space.
for them to reciprocate. And if they don't want to, it's not a judgment or an evaluation of them or of the relationship that you have with them. Not at all. The other thing I will say, it wasn't a constant piece of conversation. It was like, if something is happening. Exactly. Or oversharing, right? Because you're saying you're always showing up as safe. You're not dumping everything on your team. You're sharing a version of it, right?
And I think sometimes people hear the wisdom or advice on these topics and they misinterpret it. Be authentic. We are not saying that means share everything with everyone all the time. It's about making choices, about disclosing things that would be useful or helpful for them to know. Because in the absence of that disclosure, they are going to make up their own narrative about it. So you might as well help them get more accurate in that thinking.
You know, I dug in with your direct reports around this experience managing a card out, which was your first time building and leading a team. Now you've moved on to a new role where you're going to have a chance to do all of this again in a different context. I am curious, as you look back on your prior experience, what are some lessons learned?
from the mistakes, the missteps that you find yourself doing differently this time? What are the things that you're noticing yourself changing or adding this time around? is leading, looks very different at different. It just takes different forms, I guess is what I'm saying.
So what I would say as a first time manager, I was very lucky to get advice from people who are in similar situations or have been in the same industries or gone through the same journey. And for people who are going through that. find someone who's done the same i was going into scale up, B2B, a little bit more SaaS focus.
Right now I'm in a B2C role. And I'm like, oh, there's just slight nuances that someone else will have a slightly different way of approaching these problems. But I think that nuance matters. And what I have found very helpful at Carta, I looked around at people with high-performing teams. and sought out their advice because I was like, you know the circumstances, you know the org, you know how things work. It's obvious you have something here.
let me ask you a bunch of these questions like how do you think about this there's a lot of people around you that you should be utilizing the other thing i would say be kind to yourself you are not gonna have to a lot of things and it's okay to acknowledge that there's a lot of things i don't know so i'll find out it's okay and sometimes i would give advice
And I would sit on it and I would think about it and be like, oh, that's terrible. And I would go back to the person I gave the advice to and be like, by the way, this is bad feedback. Don't do that. Don't let your pride get in the way of both learning and saying, I don't know.
I think sometimes it's a pride thing and, you know, to do my job as a manager, then I must have all the answers on a silver platter for my team. And I love that you're saying not only do you have permission for that not to be the case, you should expect. for that not to be the case and to be comfortable saying, I don't know, we will figure it out together. And then even as you're
team changes, the company changes, you move on to a new role and the context changes, you know, you're not going to have all the answers, right? What are the choices I want to make here, right? That apply to this context or that will help me succeed here. It's not just. rinse and repeat the playbooks. I kind of love that you're hitting on that. I used to have the slide every time we would do like a learning session or something, I would have a slide at the top.
And the slide said all frameworks are broken. Use what works for you and throw out. I would say that I have found to be. extremely valuable for me. I would read people's perspectives. I go like, I agree with like 40% of this. There is no playbook. Just please try things out. See what works for you. You will make mistakes.
As long as you're honest with your team about what you're trying to do and your attempt and you're acknowledging those mistakes, you'll be okay. Yeah. Well, thanks, Dave, for being here with us. Really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. I hope you enjoyed that conversation. I have loved getting to know SAFE through this project. He brings such a great combination of humility, humor, integrity, and rigor. I want to share a few of my takeaways from the conversation with you. Number one.
When you become a manager, it is a fundamentally different job that requires a new mindset and skill set. So be willing to try things and be kind to yourself in the process of figuring it out. Number two, hire for competencies, not experience. Ask yourself and the hiring panel, how does this person make our team better?
And look for candidates that spike on something that doesn't yet exist on the team. Number three, ask yourself, where am I spending my time that gives me a good short-term feeling but is not actually the best investment? Sometimes we hold on to things too long because it feels good in the moment, but it's actually hurting our ability to accomplish the most important things, just like Safe's lesson from his phone screens. Number four.
I see work is all about delivering something, handing it off for approval and getting gold stars. But all that changes when you become a manager. Instead of looking for the gold star or doling them out to your team, ask yourself. What is the end result we're trying to achieve with this deliverable? And what's the job we want it to do? And then you can evaluate how well it's accomplishing that instead of just whether or not we like it.
I'd love to hear what you're taking away from SAFE. So please reach out or join the conversation on LinkedIn or Substack. Thank you, Safe, for joining us. And thank you, thank you to Safe's team for sharing feedback and stories about working with him. I loved meeting you all through this process.
Nikita Gupta, Chale Jop, Leah Rodriguez, and Janet Gardner. If you enjoyed this episode, please hit subscribe on your favorite podcast app. And we'd so appreciate you leaving us a rating or review. It is a really, really quick way. to support the show, and it's so, so helpful for us. Best Manager Ever is a production of Fortlight, and now it's here. I'm your host, Annie Riley. Our producer is Alexis Ramdow. Thanks for joining us today. And I look forward to more leadership lessons next week.