Ep. 61: Hot Dubstep For Bitter Catfishermen

take us back to the anal raising. Good morning, degenerate anglers, and welcome to Bend, the fishing podcast that got its first fly tying kid in the sixth grade and twenty six years later, still can't figure out how to use a whip finished tool. I'm Joe SURMERII and joining me to co host today my boy Tim Landwer of Tight Lions Fly Fishing Company in Wisconsin, who people say looks like Joe Exotic from Tiger King. Tim. What's going on? Brother? Not much? Joe? How are you today? Bro? I'm great man.

It's good to see. I'm so pumped to have you here spectacular. Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, And it's fitting that you're here because we're gonna have some fun leaning towards the fly side of things today, particularly the tying side, which is a theme I've never really explored. But it's all gonna make sense in just a little bit. But before we move on, um, can you use a whip finisher or do you do it with your fingers? Like me?

So I can use a whip finish. Yeah, well, whip finishing tool pretty well because we teach a lot of fly tying classes and stuff, but personally I just used my fingers, seeing okay. And for anybody who doesn't tie, it has no idea what we're talking about. It's the tool that finishes the fly, like makes the little nott

and I've tried. It's like a Rubik's cube. Whoever invented its sadistic tool to try to teach it, and then you've got guys in your class who are left hand and you're like, dude, I'm sorry, I can't help you. There are no rebates either, but I can't help you. And you watch it on video and it's just like boo boo, But I'm like, I can do that. And I just Rubik's cube is perfect. It just like falls apart.

It just doesn't work. And then it was it was like Lefty Cray or somebody years ago, like some old head was like, just use your fingers, and like I got the fingers thing down, so I just go with that. I used my fingers too. But yeah, it's a terrible tool joke. I also tie large flies. I don't tie Nimpson ship. So it's pretty big thread. So I can you know, I can get. You couldn't keep your sausage fingers in there to finish. I couldn't. That's why I

just buy those. But anyway, so a little backstory. Um so you and I met last summer while filming an episode of dost Boat season two together. Um and you showed me your incredible smallmouth fishery on the Monomitee River. And that episode, along with the spot Burn video which sort of spawned out of dost Boat and was running the fly fishing film tour even help you guys make some serious gains and stopping a big soulfide mine that was proposed in the area. It was a big win.

It's a huge win. It's a huge win. I can't think. I mean, it was awesome getting to fish with you guys last season. Um, but just shedding light on that mine and that sulfide mine, it's been a big win. We've kind of got the Mind Company on the run a little bit and um, you know, we're we're we're in a very very good place right now and it's it's thanks to you know, efforts from you guys and the film tour and stuff shedding light on that. Yeah.

So it's crazy, like so many people make content that sort of has a message or is like trying to push people somewhere, but then to have that first hand experience where it was like, oh damn, people actually watched that and that made a difference. It got people to rally,

was very very cool. It was super powerful because our friends at the Coalition to Save Them a nominee, river Dale Bury and his wife, they had contacted me and they're like, I mean there were donations that were sent in from other countries, you know, like, yeah, the Mediator Crew and you guys have some crazy reach and have helped out some pretty significant conservation efforts. Are in particular,

I mean it hits home to me. Yeah, so funny thing about that, right, So I like the first day of our shoot within a mile, I grabbed a spinning rod because we were trying to catch a pike for the table, right, and you put me in this little soft eddie and this monster Smally just hammered this jerk bay, right. It was not really supposed to be Smally water, and it was actually it was the first fish you saw

on camera in the dost Boat episode. But when the footage was recut for the film Tour, we submitted the sequence of that fish, and I made a joke in the narration. I was like, sea fly, guys, I'll take a spinning rod out when I fly fish, and you know, nobody, It's okay, nobody's gonna die. And even though that video that the one for the film Tour was point nine percent fly, they refused to let that one conventional fish stay in the edit, Like, come on, man, I didn't

even notice that. I got to re look at the end. I was I have selective, you know, like vision on on that stuff. I want to see it's all fishing, man, come on, So what's perfection? And we had such beautiful footage of me catching it on an omen black spinning rod from our sponsors, Third Team Fishing. But it was it was an incredible situation because if you recall, you threw it into that backwater, a fish eight came unbuttoned and then big and it was a twenty. It was

a tape twenty. I remember some of the crew, Gregson and some of those guys like, well, we're all set, that's wrap done. We're done here. Oh man, Well anyway, so we'll get back to the fly scene now. So you run a very successful shop. You have for twenty years now. Um, so here's a question for you. What, in your opinion, is the most significant material that has changed the game in flies and say the last ten fifteen years. Man, that's that's a big one. That's it.

You've been in my shop. You know how much time have you have every day? Yeah, you know, I'd have to say if we if we take a look at fifteen years and like impact on my my tying, I'd have to say it's been some of the feathers, like like companies like Whiting Farms who have bred such good feathers and offshoots of those feathers have come out from big shopping for muskie fly I'm sure, but man, you've

been time for a long time. I remember tying atoms and it took me like four feathers from a cheap Indian neck to you know, like right right, and now you can do it. So i'd have to say feathers or next and synthetic game stuff because there synthetic walls have exploded to so I can't just say one. Right. Well, it's funny you bring up feathers. It's an interesting answer

because I would say it's synthetic dubbing material. Now that's existed for a very long time, right, But I feel like it was sort of the simultaneous rise in the popularity of streamer fishing combode with the advent of like laser dub that made those materials explode. And I remember when I first got my hands on laser dub, I

was like, oh mg, like this changes everything. No spinning hair, no playing with wool, Like this was the ship was the thing that was a thing that we could you know, you would just dub that onto a hook and make a dry fly out of it. We're now we're like we're taking giant clumps of it and you know, folding it back exactly. It's been completely repurposed in that regard. Yeah, this was like Kelly Gallup's Modern uh Trophy. That's that book was so impactful to me, a modern streamers for

trophy tub. And even then you look at what is modified from a lot of his patterns were woolheads, hair heads and stuff. And now the advent of like you said, laser dub even in the muskie world, it's a mind bender. Yeah. Yeah, and the but the funny thing is, all these years later, now I see people post these bait fish patterns and they're just all synthetic dub and they look cool and I know they'll catch. But now I'm like, yeah, it's

just all synthetic dubbing though, Like can you even spin hair? Bro? Like I'm like complete reverse, like you know what I mean. It's like it made it too easy, like the days of Dave Whitelock Chris Helm spinning hair. Like, yeah, we'll just back on some more laser dub, right right, But kidding aside, So listen up, because I'm about to drop a fresh bent contest on you guys that I'm really excited about. Okay, this is why I bring up these dubbings.

One of my favorite dubbings is made by my budd, Aaron Littera of American Tide Flies out in Pennsylvania, and he makes this stuff called magnum dubbing. You familiar with that, I'm not not seen magnum dubbing, Okay, alright, So the fibers are really long, and he has all these great color blends, and if you're into tying streamers, this stuff is great, better, better than laser dub in my opinion. But Aaron did a thing for me. Um. Some of you have already seen this on my Instagram account. I

teased it. Aaron has produced a one off special set of six magnum dubbing colors, all themed around bent right. So you cannot buy these. These are not for sale. This is the only complete I know. This is the only complete set I have, and I want to give it to one of you. So here are the colors. Right. So, we've got a nice light olive e tan called Nicotine Annis in honor of Bob the garbage Man, even though

that dude would never tie on a fly. Um. We've got we've got like a nice contrasting flashy light gray called Mystery Tuna, a nod to the Subway tuna debate, the fake tuna in the sandwiches um a muted neon orange called hef a in honor of and V for all you Lance V fans after I don't know if you're just love the guy he wanted. Very few was a big fan of him. So we've got a flashed up shard truths called Dill Pickle Pringles and that's like for the serious Bend fans. That goes back to our

our best tournament correspondent Ran Stimpkins. We've got a killer dark brown with purple accents called Mandy's Live Well after the Mandy Yorke story of a dude shifting in her live Well. And my personal favorite, which I will tell you right now I did not get pre authorized. I didn't care if he was mad. My favorite one is like this midnight black with iridescent accents called Ross Robertson's Soul. Yea.

So these are all up for grabs, and here's what we're gonna do between today, October eight and before the next show airs on Friday the fifteen. I will be monitoring those degenerate Angler and Bent podcast hashtags on Instagram. But I want to see something you made that helps you catch more fish, Right, we gotta mix it up a little bit. I don't want to limit this to to fly tires, though I'm sure we're gonna see plenty of awesome flies. But this could be a jig, you

tide allure, you repainted whatever. But I'm looking for something you made. And remember it's not a beauty contest. Tell me something about it, like the why often wins these things over the what, and I will post a winner on my Instagram page the morning of Saturday, October sixteenth, Tim, would you like to help me be a judge for this? Oh? My god, I'd like I'd like nothing more. I want to see these connections in these creations and and and

the names have to be good too. I mean, it can't just be the fly like, Yeah, we got have some some stellar names in here. We're gonna consider all all things. But remember it's just like, it doesn't have to be the prettiest. I want to know the why. It's got to be something you made. Um, I'm looking forward to it. Huge shout out to AAR because these

are these are awesome dubbings. UM Collector's items. Maybe if any I don't, I don't know, maybe you can't even tie with them anyway, get me some of these I need some of these dumbings. Yeah, I think I can hook you up. I'm gonna be able to hook you up.

So what we can do? Uh, But in the meantime we'll move on to smooth Moves, We'll get away from tying the flies and uh move along to people feeding them to fish poorly And joining us today is actually one of your own guide, Nate Simple, who also works for Tight Lines. So don't spoil it, but do you think you know what story of client insanity Nate's gonna tell? I'll tell you what. Joe. Nate is one of my closest friends and he's guided for me for about sixteen years.

There is an absolutely train of craziness that I've heard over the last seventeen years, So I can honestly tell you, like, I have no idea what the hell he would have said. But I mean, there's literally hundreds of hilarious stories you could give us today for Smooth Moves. Why joining me today on Smooth Moves? Fly Guide Nate Simple One are the guys with the Tight Lines Fly fishing company crew out in Wisconsin who I met when I was out there shooting Dost Boat. How are you man? Not bad?

How are you doing, Joe? I'm good, I'm I'm very good. It's you know, it's weird. We've hung out together because you were you were running one of the camera boats on that shoot, but we've never actually fished together. Like you sort of watched me fish from a distance, which is impressive, I know, and almost almost as kid as being on the boat together, but we never actually got to fish together. I'm like, do for another trip out there. Man. For a matter of fact, you were not really supposed

to be in Dost Boat at all. But when it came to the part where we had to take the engine off that boat, I was like, somebody grabbed Nate. Okay, just getting Nat in there. So you actually kind of worked harder on boat mods in season two than I did on that episode. But anyway, man, so remind me how many years guiding? Now, how many years you've been doing this? This is fifty all right, there you go, and you've been with with tight lines for that long. Yeah.

It just goes to show you. Man. Our friend Tim Landwherd who has been on the show many times. It must be a good due to work force. Stick around that long. He can see you can trash him though on this show. It's okay, Okay, he won't. He won't listen anyways. Yeah, probably not. Probably won't anyway. So you know what Smooth Moves is all about. Man, the floor is yours. Wow me make me laugh? What do you got? I know you've seen some ship I have. I have And when you hit me up for this a while ago,

so many things we're running through my head. I was like, oh man, I've got so many stories. Um. And one of them that came to mind that that I still have, like other clients have heard, um, you know, and it's kind of become a little infamous. Up at camp was a guy who um, in the interest of anonymity in this guy actually being a decent dude, and he is fishing with me again like next month. So I'm going to use a pseudonym here and we'll call him. We'll

call him Bill for the time being. Bill is good. Bill is good good. So anyways, Bill and I are in the boat with one of his buddies, and this is a preseason small mufflow. So we're we're on a on a small tributary to one of our big rivers, and it's May. Uh and this river river happens to drain a considerable percentage of the upper Peninsula of Michigan, which in the wintertime is it's cold, you know, to

get a lot of snow. So this water that's coming down into the system, I mean, it's it's like a little bit above freezing in the first part of May. So anyways, we get on the water, everything's going smooth. And I gotta preface this by saying that I had just gotten a brand new boat from Adipose wonderful ball. Yeah. So I've had like two days in this boat. It's still got that new boat smell. Everything stills, you know, shiny and ship. There's no cigarette stains and burn marks

all over the place yet. Um So, anyways, we're we're going down the river and we're fishing small mouth, hoping to possibly get a shot at a muskie if one presents itself. And we're going down and because the water is high, because the water is cold, we're we're looking for those those gray, little soft spots, those little eddies, those little slicks and stuff like that. We finally come up to one and Bill, as well call him, is sitting in the back of my boat and he's really

enjoying the day. And by enjoying the day, I mean he's sitting in one of the wonderful pedestal seats that at a Post puts in their boats, and he's got his feet up on the on the side of the boat and he's just chilling. And he pulls back and he throws a cast into this greasy, little kind of eddie, you know, some nice fom on and stuff. But he doesn't mend right away. It's just it's kind of a little bit of a lazy cast. And he was sitting down and casting. He's sitting and casting. Yeah, I can't

sit and cast either. Just doesn't feel right anyway. Maybe maybe there's a reason why he does that, but if there's not, he can't do that well. For me, it's it's that I'm greedy and I want to be able to see what's going on, and I feel like when I'm sitting I can't see a damn fact. So Bill throws this fly into this little eddie and he doesn't mend or anything, and maybe it's because he's sitting down.

Current catches his line, rips the line right out of there, and as that fly is vacating this eddie, I see this big, like like a huge, huge small mouth just kind of levitate up behind his fly, go right after it, and then go, you know what, this water is really cold.

I don't feel like working that hard throw this. So the small mouth goes back into his into his spot, and I immediately dropped the anchor and I stand up and I say to Bill, I said, Bill, get that fly back in there, but work the fly this time. Throw a mend into it right away. Get that fly slow down. So I dropped the anchor. I'm now standing up, looking to my right, right at the right ut of the shore, right into this eddy, and Bill, still seated,

throws a nice cast right into the eddy. Fly hits the water, He mends, he mend's, and right on cue this, the murder minow is just kind of hanging there in that in that grease. Just suspend it, and this big small mouth just comes up and it just just disappears the whole thing, and I, in all my excitement, just hit him, hit him, hit him, and all of a sudden,

the boat rocks violently. I hear this this ripping noise followed by a big splash, and there's this moment where I'm just frozen and I'm like, what the hell just happened? And I turned back to look at Bill to ask him if he's got the fish, and he has gone, so is the seat to my boat and the pedestal. So I'm doing this moment where I'm like, oh my god.

And I look back at the water and the fish is still, like I can see it on the line because the line is it's a floating line, it's a short line, so I can see the line like bent into there. And I look back. I've got a bare boat floor, no seat, no pedestal, nothing in the back of my brand new boat, and my client is in the water. Bill is in the water behind me, in

fifty degree water on his back. And if you've ever flipped like a snapping turtle on its back in the water, and you see him doing that thing where they're trying to right themselves, that's the invitation that I'm getting out of Bill right now. And thankfully for him, the water happened to be about three ft deep, so he stands up, lifts his rod tip up. He's still got the damn fish on and he he makes his way back to the boat. He gets a hand on the side of

the boat. I don't know how he's not frantically gasping for air, because this water is, like I said, it's a little bo freezing. He got the life right out of here. Yeah, he kind of hands me the rod to hold onto the fish. Will he will. He tries to get himself back into the boat. And he gets back in the boat. We land the fish, and and I kind of turned on and I look at him, and I'm like, what the hell did you do? You know? And and he, you know, had his feet up on

the gut. And what I know happened was in his excitement that fish ate and he threw his entire weight and pushed with his feet back into that seat and basically, you know, did his impression of a guy at anytime fitness on the legs sled machine into the back of my damn this thing, and still had enough momentum to throw himself out the backside of the boat, you know.

And oh man, yeah, so it was it was just I was shocked that a he didn't freeze to death and be he got himself back in the boat and and that I didn't kill it because he his first comment out of his milk was not like, oh ship, dude, I really messed that up, but it was like, you know, oh, this is clearly a manufacturer's flaw. And I was like, no, dude, it wasn't. But on a serious note, right, So that's that's funny that he went right to manufacturer's defect because

I know who that guy is. I've met that guy before. Um, did you have to bail? I mean that had to be a potential hypothermic situation, right, No, So the sun was actually out, it was it was the air temperature was like seventy degree. So yeah, back in his big concern, the main thing that he was concerned about was not anybody's comfort or well being the rest of the trip. It was that the Copenhagen in his breast pocket was

was was still dry. So once we once we got that resolved and figured out that we were good there, um, you know, we we kind of went on on our way. So I then had to do the you know, the call of shame and call the guys out at adipose and and uh, you know, they walked walked me through how to kind of resolve it, and and it was it could have been worse. I mean he could have ripped like the whole floor out and had water coming

in the boat. But you know, they right away I was justin told me that in their like seventeen years, they had never ever seen that happen, never seen one getting ripped clean out of the Baltic birch. And the bolts that hold this sucker in like you know, they were like the size of my pinkie, these giant coarse thread epoxied in and just boom ripped them right out of there. So the thing you have to understand about Nate is Nate is about the most I know he's

listening right now. He's like the most type a you know, very particular guy. I mean his truck. He's the guy that you want to buy his youth truck from because like it's that's like brands banking. Um. So I remember he got his new boat as a brand new boat, you know, only a handful of weeks old. And a lot of our guys rotate boats every couple of years. They have you know, things with some of the different companies. And I remember coming back to camp like completely just

just a train wreck. And in one hand he's got the seat with like four bolts of these stainless deal boats hanging out like and and like this is this is kind of in the beginning of the guide season. I think it was in the beginning of the guy season, but like it's pretty tough to guide without a boat without a seat at the zero hour the day this happened, you saw the initial aftermath. I saw the aftermath. And in fact, we have seven or eight guys that worked

through our operation. We're all cleaning up our boats and having beers. And you could see him just kind of squeal into the parking lot, you know, makes like a big U turn and drops So what the you know, one of these and it was it was spectacular. So and I think the worst part is nobody was hurt. But I think the guy like literally threw himself out of the boat like hooks that was so powerful, like

launch himself out. It's funny because what I actually identified with the guy freaking out over his can of dip getting wet, because as an ex smoker of cigarettes, I feel that pain like I did. I once dropped in on a ten mile flow years ago and in the first quarter mile my lighter fell in and I did not have another and it was a miserable day for me. And steal that and and looking back on it now, right, like, what a stupid thing to ruin a day like That's

terrible that you could ruin a beautiful day. But if you ever smoked or dipped like you get that too, absolutely, And if memory serves me correct, like he's doggy paddle and left handed and holding his tin up in the other hand, I mean he made it work, So I don't I don't think that Copenhagen got to drop of water on it. True true nicotine addict right there. Anyway, guess what else I'm addicted to. That would be winning at fish News against my new opponent, Hayden Sammock Fish.

That escalated quickly, so I already gave him a shout out on Instagram last week. But I'm not sure that listener Dominic de flu Mary is on Instagram, so just in case, right, Uh, this New Yorker hit me up and said, hey, man, I found something in an old tackle box I want to send you and while he didn't say what it was, I I just knew and

I was right. Um, Dom sent me a well used hippie spoon, right yeah, right, And for those of you that don't know what the hell I'm talking about, I did an end of the line segment on these spoons, which I grew up using for snapper blue fish. Um. And when I was a kid, there was a card of them on every counter at every Jersey shore tackle shop. And then I go to research them and it was like they never existed. There was like like, yeah, like

Mandel effect. Somebody brought that up. They actually said that I have outsmarted the Mandela effect because of Dom's generosity. Um. But it was like they were just erased from time and history. But Dom has proven I'm not crazy. And of course my bud, Dave Hosler over at Pilecast he had to chime in and say like, well, how do you know you're actually holding that lord in your hand? You know what I mean? Like like Bill Hicks said, this is all a dream, which which could be true.

I don't know, but I do appreciate it, dude. I love the bend listeners man say, helping us keep our sanity in more ways than one, exactly exactly. So what else do we need to talk about? I know lots of people think you're high when you record fish and I've insisted that you're not. That's just what you sound like. What would you like to speak to that at all? A little bit? I am most certainly not high. This is just my This is just what I sound like. Uh yeah, I will say I do have a little

bit of a cold right now. And I was telling you about this this more and Joe about my day quill night quill sort of dilemma. Yeah, you have one but not the other, so you can't can't you can't cancel out the night quill with day quill. It's day quill you don't have, Yeah, it's day quill. I don't have. I only have night quill, and I've been trying to counteract that with copious amounts of coffee. So you know, if I sound particularly out of it this episode of

fish News, rest assured, I am not. I I am just ill. You said you're sipping on some kind of wacky wild game stock you've put together. I am. Me and my buddies have been getting out after after some upland birds as of late, and I am drinking a master stock made of Hungarian partridge, sage grouse, some some duck feet left over from the duck opener this past Saturday, Montana, and a smoke tamhawk and just you know, various root

vegetables as stock is inclined to be made of. I almost bought Canada at Whole Foods over the weekend, but it's really expensive. Dude. I couldn't I get high on wild game kids, although I couldn't help. But notice suddenly you've changed your Instagram profile picture back to fishing, which

I appreciate. Yeah, you know, I had this one of of me when I had just gone out here, and I was all, you know, kind of puffy chested, with like a big old thirty eight strapped to my hip, and and and and then I was just kind of like, you know what, I just don't feel like that right now. And in fact, I you know, we got bears out here, Joe, and I've heard, yeah, the grizzy kind. Yeah, And so

I've I've moved to carrying a glock twenty. And man, I will tell you what I used to like think that was the coolest thing to like be out in the woods and carrying around like this like strap and now, man, it's just it's gone to the point where it's just heavy and I try to carry that thing nowhere, including now my my Instagram profile pictures. So there you go. There you go, beautiful, beautiful. Well, well, well hurry you

up here, we'll move on. We'll try and get through this before your your coffee and stock wear off and you just pass out at the microphone. Uh So remember this is a competition, Hayden, and I do not know which news stories the other dude is bringing to the table. And um, at the end we shall be filled with judgment bullets. Pardon the pun, which is actually a reminder to you to pardon your puns because clearly Phil didn't appreciate them last week. Um, and our sharp dressed audio

engineer Phil Taylor will declare a news winner. It is your leadoff this week, sir? What you got all right? Man? Well? Last week you did a story on a on a potential state record being used for bait. Yeah, sure, did false alby, yes sir? Yeah, Well this week I have a story about a potential world record being eaten. Did you see this, I did, and I didn't grab it because it's your leadoff, and I was like, he's gonna go for it. So I was my my, my street smarts.

I went for it, and h this story is kind of weird for a few reasons, and in the end, I don't actually like know how I feel about it. So I'm just gonna kind of do my best to sum it up real quick, and then I want to break it down a little bit. Is that cool with you?

That's cool with me? Man break it down alright. So a few weeks ago in Connecticut, this dude, ben Tom Cooness catches what was believed to be a twenty one point three pound catfish, and a lot of people right now are thinking like, oh, like, you know, so what twenty small cat if you're talking blues or channels, you know, maybe not channel channels blues and flatheads. I meant, yeah,

But but this was no ordinary catfish. Uh. It was a white catfish, and anyone who knows anything about white cats knows that they pretty much never ever, ever, ever grow that big. Uh So anyway, the dude takes a bunch of photos. He gives the fish to his grandfather, who eats it, and he later sends all these photos to Connecticut's Fish and Wildlife Division, who confirmed as a state record, even going so far to announce it on their Facebook page. Ye yep, they went for it full send.

So a couple of weeks past, and now they're saying that without examining the fish itself, because Grandpa ate it right, they cannot say that Tom cooness Is catch was definitely a white catfish. So now Joe, they're res sending the record citing that the image, citing the images as ambiguous and inconclusive. Yep, yep. So to that end, DEEP, that's Connecticut's Department of Energy and Environmental Protection, which kind of

seems like it might be at hides with itself. Yeah, put out a statement on Facebook saying, due to questions raise both internally and by outside sources, DEEP is recalling its initial declaration of a new state record white catfish caught in Coventry Lake, and that's the one obviously caught

by Tom coonas yep. Anyhow, Tom coon is, for his part, is really upset about this, like maybe not quite like Otter people obsessed about this or upset about it rather, but frankly he feels like the whole thing is total bullshit and is reportedly so angry. He's quoted as saying his teeth hurt from grinding. What do you what do

you think about that? Joe? Uh, Well, knowing a little bit about this story, I um, I think it's a bit much because I know you're gonna get into sort of both sides of the story here, So I we'll let you go on and pass judgment later. Um, but I'll just pray like there's there's things he would have done better too to stop his teeth. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, well, well we'll get into that, but like I can see both sides of this, and we'll start

from Tom Cooness's kind of follies. On one hand, all the pictures of this dude's catch that I've seen have been like shitty, you know, And granted they are night

fishing pictures, Joe, which is it's always tough. Yeah, yeah, those things tend to be shitty, But I mean not a single one is in like sharp focus, right, They're all kind of like strange, weird sort of angles, and there aren't any pictures and this is like kind of like the one that speaks to you know Deep's point, there aren't any pictures of that show really definitive features, particularly the rays of the anal fin in great detail, because the untrained night, it's very hard to tell channel

from white. Like you really got to know what you look at for, right yeah. And we're going to get to that in just a little bit too. But let me bring up the second point right quick, and it's that this dude obviously knew that he had a very likely record. You know, he had a scale with him, He took a bunch uh yeah, I mean it kind of seemed to me he knew there was some big

gass white catfish where he was fishing exactly. Yeah. White catfish is an obscure is a relatively obscure fish, right yeah, And he clearly knew that there were some big ones in here. He had a a scale with him. I don't know about you, man, but when I'm just like going and catfishing off the dock, and I do a lot of that, very rarely do I bring like a scale with me, And if I do catch one, very rarely do I make like such extensive effort to like

document like the fish. If I catch like a big, big old cat fish, you have a point, Like the only thing I carry a scale for his snakeheads, because like, if it's a ten pounder, I want to know. I don't want to guess and be like I think that one was ten, Like that's a big deal, so I want to know. Otherwise I don't never have a scale with me. I don't care. Right, So, like I said, you know, I think that he knew that he had like record potential here and here. But here's the weird thing.

He took all these pictures, but then he like didn't release it right, right, So I mean at that point, why not just bring the fishing right, but but to give it to his grandfather so to like eat it. You're killing the fish anyhow, And if you think you have a state record, you might as well bring the thing in. Well, that's what I'm saying. He's so he's

so upset about this that his teeth are grinding. But like, if you cared that much about nailing a state record, then do it the right way and document it properly. Take the fish in somewhere a fishing will be weighed and looked at. So that's what I mean. I don't understand how Maddie can be because he didn't do a particularly good job of proving it. Bro just like look at the pictures that you took, yeah and be like no,

that one's like blurry, that's not gonna fly. You're like, you're dealing with potentially a world record could go beyond it could go beyond state, right, it was big enough that it could have been world Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, you know that you have this potential record, like, take the time to document it appropriately, particularly if you're not concerned about getting it back into the water you are

alive and well yep, yep. So anyway, so those are the strikes that I have against ton coon Iss in all of this. Basically it comes down to his inability to take a grip and grin and maybe like a slip in decision making. It does seem a little weird, but looking at all this, I don't think it was because he was like trying to get one over on

somebody to like claim a false record. Well, probably not, but you know, it's also easy to be swayed, like you've seen this with records before, where somebody catches something and some other guy on the piers like, hey, you know, what that is, don't you, And you just like kind of take their word for it. So I don't know. Maybe he tooks pictures and later on somebody was like, that's what. Who knows, We'll never know. That's all speculation.

It doesn't really matter. I mean, well that that's kind of the problem with this whole story is like the entirety of it is speculation on multiple levels. So anyway, let's move on to deep here. They should never never have announced this publicly. No big mistake. Yeah, I don't understand how it got through it all, particularly something is potentially controversial as this, And here's where we're gonna go back to those, uh the anal rays for those please take us back to the anal rays, back to the

anal races. Why do I feel like that's going to be in the podcast description? It might be for those who don't know, Uh. Species of catfish, particularly those under twenty is pounds, can be really hard to tell apart. You know, you look for things like head shape, the color of like chin barbles. But one of the most telling features and the one that most biologists look to in a positive identification, are the numbers of rays on

the annual been of a catfish. Now, like the ray is that line that comes down that kind of supports like that thin membrane right? Um, Anyhow, blue cats typically have thirty to thirty five channel casts typically of twenty four to twenty nine, Whites have twenty two to twenty five, and flatheads have fourteen to seventeen. Now you can already see right like whites and channels have a In fact,

they have a little bit. Yeah, they overlap exactly, so I mean, so that should speak to you know how kind of closely these catfish tend to be an appearance, um, with the number one distinguishing feature being size. Right, but you have a twenty pound white catfish, now you're really in some like gray area, you know what I mean. All that has to say without being able to count those anal rays, it can be really hard to tell the difference between a channel cat and a white cat.

And without being able to do that, they should have never announced this record. However, I will say to Tom Cunas's credit as a dude who has a reputation among his pals as a bait chucking catfish enthusiast and someone who has seen a ton of twenty pound channel cats. I think, based on Tom cunas is pictures shitty as they are, I have to agree with him, and I genuinely think that he caught a world record white cat and I think that thus lead Deep's decision to rescind

that record is in fact bullshit. It looks like a white catfish to me, you know, particularly like with the shape of that head. I mean there's one picture that you see where like the it's kind of like a profile view of the catfish on some grass, and man, that does not look like a channel catfish to me. Well, you know what, I'll tell you what, Man, I I'm not so sure I agree that it's bullshit because it just seemed like a rushed decision to begin with, you

know what I'm saying. So again without knowing the backstory, like who knows who made that call? And who knows who? You're thinking, like, what's does anybody care about this? What's the difference? Throw it up there? Like, but then you know it takes somebody later record, Yeah, you know what I mean. So it's it's almost double the previous white catfish record. Yeah, and I'm pretty sure that record stood for like what like fifty years or something like that.

It's it's an it's an old record. Um. But it's also just funny how these things always play out because it's not like UM's it's not like Ben is gonna be rolling in in catfish Tackle endorsements over this. What I mean, like, there's some big money records out there, like you catch the world record striper, you're famous, you catch the world record yellow fin whatever, you're famous. You know.

But and it all just comes back to if it mattered that much to you, if it would have meant that much for you to hold that record, you could have done You should have You should have. Yeah, you know, then you wouldn't be on Ben, haven't you talk about him? So any anyhow, you know, it's a messy story, and I think both Tom Coonas and Deep could have done well. That they could have both been smarter in dealing with this potential record. No matter how you look at it, Yes,

one thing is for sure. I bet Tom Coonas is pretty annoyed with his buddy for taking such a shitty grip and grin beyond the lack of a sweet Instagram post. You set me up beautifully because your story ties to shitty photos uh, mine ties to uh kind of an amazing photo crystal clear, like just clear is an unmudded

lake to quote clackwork orange. Um. And And so I was torn this week, Right, I was gonna go with the headline disgraced ex Governor Andrew Cuomo scene fishing with dog, But then I was like what I was supposed to do with that? Right? So this is this sort of a goofy little story I came across in the Daily Star, and I couldn't leave it alone, right, the headline of this one fish captured smoking cigarette on camera save before

gobbling the entire thing. And what this is? Yeah? Right, this is one of those classic j C newspieces that really it's not the story so much as the dumb commentary it will lead to. Uh still a little interesting though, right. So the fishing question is a blunt nosed lizard fish and the photo was taken off the coast of Palm Beach, Florida,

by underwater photographer Steve Kovak's earlier this year. Um, it's very clear, very vivid, and the little fish even has the correct end, the filtered end of the heater in its tiny little mouth. Um. Now even Kovaks admits he took the shot because it was funny, right, but he also felt bad because he figured that the little fellow was just seconds away from engulfing the entire cancer stick, assuming it was some kind of prey, So as soon as he got the shot, he immediately grabbed the butt

um to save the fish. So, just in case you've never heard of a lizard fish, there's actually a whole bunch of different species throughout the Atlantic, and these skinny little suckers that lie half buried in the sand with their eyes, you know, just sticking out and they wait for small crustaceans to drift overhead and stuff like that. So clearly this lizard fish um thought that camel was

a shrimp. So what's crazy, though, is that the photo was so good it got entered into the Ocean Photography Awards, which curates. Yeah, they curate and judge the most stunning oceanic photographs from all over the world on a yearly basis. Right, and while Kovacs didn't win anything, he got a highly commended quote highly commended. I guess it's like an honorable mention nod for his smoking lizard fish. Uh. And of

course they didn't. They didn't recognize Kovacs for the beauty and the shot, but rather as part of a conservation category that highlights how human waste affects marine environments, right,

making those fish starts smoking. See exactly, Yeah, I now so, And I gotta say, I'm surprised he didn't win, because if you're trying to paint a picture of what dirt bags humans can be, like to me, like this is it because it's very easy to show big things, right, like discarded commercial fishing nets or giant balls of mono or oil spills, like these huge impactful things like the one in California this weekend. Exactly, Yeah, there was one

in California that was newsworthy to um. But people flick a button the water so nonchalantly and bam, like there it is, like there's the photo. You know what I mean? That has to be like this single most frustrating thing that I see people do, Like regularly, do you do people smoke in Montana anymore? I feel like people don't smoke anymore? Well, you know, Number one, there is like one dude in my apartment building that smokes and I always see him and its just like coming from like

you know, the East code. That would be something that I would have never thought about. But now I like identify that dude as like the guy who smoked siggs in the apartment, you know what I mean. And so that's what I'm not coming down on smokers at all, but I firmly believe that people are more sympathetic to heroin addicts in the year that people who smoked like smokers are like hardcore outcast. But we're getting off topic.

That's not the point. The point is like the impacts of a single cast off smoke but are right there in front of you, right, But the category was actually one by a shot I didn't think was nearly as good, um, and it was. It was. It was a more a eel wrapped in old heavy gauge mono dead on the bottom, which like that's impactful. But I actually thought the cigarette button lizard fish mouth like drove the point home further, you know what I mean. Yeah, to what we were

talking about earlier. Man Like in Montana, I don't really see like people like flicking siggs into like beautiful trout streams. But when I was back on the East Coast, I almost got in a fight with somebody on the Salmon River one time, which is easy to do. Oh man, I'll tell you what. If you're looking to fish and fight, you go up to the Salmon River man the Yeah, this dude was on the other end of the or the other side of the bank, and I saw him smoking a signal okay, man, smoke your sig, and he

flicks it into the water. I go, hey man, you know, and it's probably because I was on the other side of the bank, but I go, hey man, you know, you dropped something. And the dude like kind of looks over at me and then looks down pretends not to hear me. Hey man, you dropped something. And he goes what. I go, you dropped your cigarette? And he goes, oh, yeah, I know. I go, Well, don't you think you all to pick it up? Yeah? So that kind of that

kind of a scene straight out of Roadhouse right there. Hayden, good for you. No, No, it wasn't It wasn't that cool. Honestly, I was kind of emboldened by the fact that I knew that there was really no place to cross from about a quarter mile up in a quarter mile the hut at a point. Well, so okays, well so, and I'm not see now I'm gonna get off on that tangent, right because the front half of this story, the actual facts. That's like the angel on Joe's shoulder telling that part.

But then here comes the demon because there is a part of me that has to laugh at this slightly because on numerous occasions I've seen trout rise to a

flicked cigarette butt. And one time, and I will never forget this, I was probably eighteen and and fishing with a buddy in northeast Pennsylvania, matter of fact, and we had a decent hatch going, but I was like a knee a fight on fly at the time, and I was trying like hell to feed these fish and they wouldn't rise to my ship, like let alone rise and snubb it. There was just no response. And my buddy flicked a smoke, which, for the record, I do not

now nor have I ever condoned that. Like I didn't like it at the time, but damn if one of those fish didn't come up and take a shot. And these were holders, not fresh stock, he's like not like truck dummies, okay, um, So I tried to float him like a white wooly bugger, you know what I mean. Like, I'm like, all right, you want cigarette butts, let me see what I can do here. But it didn't work though, right, and then furthermore, and this is even worse. But it's funny.

When I was a teenager, I worked in the detail bay of a car dealership and there was this old dude and all he did was party boat fish for fluke, and he was a ringer to man, like he caught the ship out of big fluke. And I asked him one time. I was like, done, What's Like, what's the secret? Man? Like? How you catching all these dormats? And he says, here's what you do. You buy a cheap pack of smokes with white filters, and you put your squid and your sparing on your hook, and then you break off a

filter and you stick it over the point. And now you shoot a little shed of crab oil on in that filter, and the filter keeps you a bait on the hook. But as it gets wet, it gets all soft and wavy, and the whole time it's releasing that crab oil. And I was like, damn, now, I definitely I don't condone that either. At all, but I also oddly appreciate the old timing ingenuity like that would have been like a legit taps tip in field and stream

like circu n you know what I mean? Yeah, well, you know what, man, I actually don't really see the problem with that. In fact, I would pose it that that is better than a lot of the soft plastics that we lose in the water all the damn time. Well, you know what if there was a study done like now again, these are these are these are unsmoked cigarette filters. He wasn't smoking him doing this, He would buy a pack of clean smokes. I don't even think he smoked,

and would just break off the unsmoked filter. Definitely smoked, probably I don't remember. But you know what, I bet you if you did a study like a bunch of soft plastics on the bottom or some unsmoked plane cigarette filters, you're right. I mean I think it was mostly cotton. Maybe it's maybe condone it maybe you do. I don't know, but I thought I thought it was great. So those are my cigarette butt stories. Uh, Phil could could grab a smoke this week, filtered or unfiltered. Um, you know

he could. He could could check out the anal rays of your story. Whatever he wants to do, we're gonna kick it over to Phil and see who won this week. And then after that me and our guest co host Tim Land where we're going to get a drink, do a little that's my bar, Hayden. It's a shame you couldn't stop that guy from throwing his cigarette into the river, because I can only assume that that same cigarette floated

downstream right into the mouth of a lizard. Fishing was eventually photographed by Steve Kovacs, leading to Joe's victory this week in fish News, Hayden, I hope you feel better, but to be honest, I'm kind of worried about you, and so is a friend of mine. Hayden. It's me McGruff,

the crime dog. McGruff. What are you doing here? I'm just worried about my good friend, Hayden Sammick, who, between his nicotine, his night quill, his coffee, and the fact that he's stoned out of his gourd every week on fish News, clearly has a problem. Allegedly McGrath allegedly, allegedly allegedly are right. You're right, but even so, I've written a song just for the occasion. Hayden listened closely. Try marijuana, don't try it at all. It's like me eating your

head on a wall. And if your gamble with life, you can lose it because your life is a gift. Don't a music best? God damn bartenders from Tim buck to to Portland, Maine an argument for that matter. So when I set this up with Tim, he said, hey, man, you know I've got a bar for you, and it's been a minute since we've had a quality That's my bar here on Ben I'm always interested in new places to drink. So where are you taking us? Oh man?

This was this is a tough one, but I'm going to take you to Nelson's Hall in Bidders Club on Washington Island, Wisconsin. Okay, there's a lot of great fish bars in Wisconsin. Man, Like I think that we've had more Wisconsin bars in this segment than anything else. Well it should be. I mean, I think you can just do a Wisconsin that's my bar bar episode here. But so so this is an interesting place because there's some

history to it. So I'll lead up to that. But if you're heading north up the thumb of Wisconsin and you travel through what's nor known as the Door County Peninsula. Right. Um, the Bay a Green Bays on your is to your east and Lake Michigan's to your west. It's just basically a long country road that runs to the absolute tip of the thumb um of the Door County Peninsula. Now, the Dor County Peninsula is super popular and it's it's

been known as the Cape Cod of the Midwest. I mean they didn't know that, Okay, yeah, yeah, it's it's a really cool area. You know. Both sides of the roads are lined with people, little shops, ice cream places, and they're mostly Illinois plates. Right. No, I would never call that, that would be wrong. Um. But as you travel to the tip, you get to the very chip and there's a ferry line there. That's a car ferry and it's a twenty minute ride and it takes you

to Washington Island. Now, see, I've never heard of Washington Island. I just learned something. As a bass fisherman, you need to know because like I hate to do a whole lot of spoiling of some of this stuff. But like Washington Island's bass season doesn't open up until the first part of July because the spawn lasts a lot longer, you know, into that, so they have kind of some

of their own special regulations. But between the Bay of Green Bay, Lake, Michigan, and Washington Island during tournament season a couple of years ago, they caught smallmouth bass that were eight pounds two ounces. Dude, I broke seven once in my life. That's impressive, and seven is an impossible number hard, you know, for the right and actually funny thing is that one of the places I've done it was in Sturgeon Bay. That's as far out on the peninsula as I've been. So I've only ever been to

the middle. I haven't gone any further nor you're close. You just keep heading north and you take that ferry line across. But so that gets me to the bar. You take this ferry boat all the way across to the bar, and you run into a small town. Washington Island is not like the Dori County Peninsula. It has a hundred some miles of paved road on it. But there's like downtown is seven buildings and three of them

are bars, because that's what it should be. Um. But what's cool about Nelson's Pub we'll get into the fishy part of this pub. But the interesting couple of facts is number one, it's the oldest bar serving alcohol continually in Wisconsin. Now, it's an interesting statistic because if you take a look at it, after the Eighteenth Amendment kicked off in ninety effectively prohibiting the production and sale of alcohol, they were still operating. Now, I'll tell you how this

all went down. So this is why this is. People like I'd go in there and order the wings and out and leave. It's great, this is good, ud come on. So um, they have been the largest server of I don't know if I'm botching this up here, but Angustura bidders. All of us have seen bidders, you know. Um, it was actually more made of clothes and some other stuff, but it's ninety proof. Well, the gentleman that opened in

Nelson's Hall was Tom Nelson. And Tom Nelson had opened that place in like eighteen ninety nine, and once prohibition hit, is out of luck, you know, what what are you doing on this island? So he started serving bidders, just the just the bidders through prohibition. Now that was still illegal because bidders are ninety proof. Well, here's the fun

part that brings it to my family scheme. My grandfather was an attorney in Sturgeon Bay and my grandmother was born on Washington Island and through loopholes as a stomach tonic. They had written it's not really legislation and go, but they basically worked through a loophole where they were still allowed to serve stomach tonic all through prohibition slick still today, the Bidders Club is the largest consumer of anger store bidders in the entire world US. Now see, I did

not know much about bidders before this. Right. In fact, the last time I had bidders was with you. You made me an old fashioned and garnished it with with pickled ramps your child forage. They were trying to give you the full Wisconsin thing you have to have a They were delicious, but shame on you for making your kids supply your booze garnages. But that it's good, it's good racket. We got going beyond that though. My grandmother says she was a Manhattan drinker, which is like another

old school drink, like an old Fashioned. But I remember every time she ordered one at a restaurant she ordered extra bidders. So I always associated bidders with like old people drinks. So anyway, now I assume obviously you took the shot. You're part of the bidders club, You're part of the pleader's club. You do the shot, you're part of the club. And it's still is still history. But the fishy part of the bar is like the island itself still is like buried in you know, fishing history.

You know, there's still families that commercial fish for white fish and stuff like that. But I mean there are so many people that come up. There's kind of still one of those hidden secrets where these bass guys are up there and it's like they're catching six pounders. You know, there's giant northerns and all the harbors. All my islander friends are going to be furious with me talking about this ship right now, but but you know what I mean.

So so that's my bar, you know, that's that's that's kind of it, And I yeah, man, and I really appreciate all the history and tradition there. We had. Another bar might have also been in Wisconsin where you had to shoot yeager and our crowd juice when you caught your first muskie. So I like I like the bidders better. The side note here, though, also is it is also known as the second most haunted establishment in the state of even Better. Even Better. One of these days, maybe

you can take me there. I will join the Bidders Club. We'll see a ghost and it'll be great. How if you have a bar you listening that you want shouted out, tell us about it in an email to Bent at the meat Eater dot com. So we are almost out of time, but to the bitter end, and see what I did there. We aim to pump you full of useful information between all the fart jokes and off color humor. So I'm going to close it out with an end of the line segment that ties did it again? Back

to our very loose theme of fly tying. Uh Tim, I'll ask you what just what comes to mind when I say sparkle mindow? Oh my god, Well, sparklement a great trout streamer around our spring creeks. And also, if I'm in real big trouble on a small mall guide trip, I can wiggle a sparkle middle around in the rapids and catch eight inches like crazy. There you go, there, you go. Hell, you might even be able to incorporate a little bit of nicotine annis or mystery tuna dubbing

into your sparkle minnows. Here's the fullback story on them. Well, that's not loud enough. Here's the description of Coffee Sparkle Minnow on the Duragler's website. Coffee Sparkle Minnow might be the sleeper streamer often passed up in the fly bin. This fly absolutely destroys trout on almost anybody of water in the West. I would agree with that statement, though it messes fish up well beyond the West. But listen, before I get into this fly, I have to ask

who the hell is coffee? Like I like to provide background on my end of the line choices. Though despite four billion and one references to Coffee Sparkle Minnow on the inner webs, my search for Coffee's first name or his story failed, And maybe I didn't try hard enough. But then again, like I'm not spending an entire day

looking for that, like that should be easy. I even suffered through many awkward and scripted tying tutorials on YouTube that sounded like this, today We're gonna be tying the sparkle mino, one of the most versatile streamer patterns and beloved by many. Just how did they get it so sparkly? I'm gonna show you how today. But not one tire that I watched provided the first name or backstory of

the elusive coffee. I'm sure someone listening knows and will educate me, so let's just move on to the fly. The sparkle minnow is what I'd categorized as a guide fly now. God flies are relatively easy and fast to tie, so a guide can knock out a fresh dozen the night before a trip. But guide flies also tend to

appeal to the fish first and the angler second. As dur Anglers pointed out in a bin next to drunken, disorderly circus peanuts and flukean zombies, the sparkle minnow is unlikely to grab the attention of the tourist bro full of piston vinegar in the shop on the Madison that has been dreaming about a brown trout with a hook jaw that makes up three quarters of its body since he booked this trip a year ago. Jokes on him, though, because the sparkle minnow is both a numbers fly and

a size fly. The sparkle minnow isn't some giant jointed behemoth. It's essentially a modern wooly bugger. It's tied on a standard size streamer hook. It has a cone head and a two tone maraboo tail with a bit of flash. The body, on the other hand, is pure flash. In most cases, tires lean on a brush of angel hair or ice dubbing, but you can also create the pattern with a dubbing loop. The end result is a minnow

pattern with a flared, kind of fat, chubby middle. It's a great sculp and imitator in darker colors, and a general bait pattern and lighter colors. But the way I described the action, it's kind of like wattles and wobbles on the strip. Lots of guys also dead drift them simply letting all that soft flash and mariboo pulse and breathe.

Bottom line, it's a really really versatile fly. In truth, I lean on the sparkle minnow more for small mouths than trout, because they just seem to love killing that thing all season long, regardless of water conditions. For trout fishing, at least out east where I am it's more of an ace in the hole. And when the sparkle minnow bite is good, it's it's often really really good. Sometimes in trout fishing you feel the need to reduce your flash,

be more subtle, especially in cleaner water. But there have been many tough days, and you know those days where you're getting flashed and swiped but not pinned, where a drop in fly size and a ramping up of the metallica we could say makes the play. Often, though not always, I find that a sparkle minnow either catches like all the fish or none at all. Now in the spring, if there's l wife herrings spilling over the damn on the west branch of the Delaware, you can damn well

rest ashored. I'm chucking a sparkleman out. It's become one of my staples, and I suggest you don't overlook them in the fly bin because it's one of those flies that you don't really need until you do. And that's vague and weird, but I also know most of you guys know exactly what I'm talking about. So thanks for this one coffee, whoever you are. So that's it for

this week. If you'd like a materials list. Recreating the magic of this episode will require for extremely strong bolts and a fresh can of skull, a few shots of bidders from the Land of Illinois license plate. It's an a p B for a guy named Coffee and an eyebrow piercing just like Joe exotics. Tim cannot thank you enough for hanging out with me today, man, Thanks for having me brother. I appreciate as Yeah. Man, super good times.

Tim not only provided a great bar for us today, but also a great employee with plenty of client buffoonery to share. So thanks again to Nate Sipple. And if you guys have anything to share, like bars, salem and items, awkward photos, uh nibble and sip, voice memos and so on, send them to Bent at the Meat Eater dot com. Joehan pumped up to see what these guys come up with that dubbing on homemade lures and flies. Man, Yes, just make sure you know post hashtag degenerate Angler and

Bent podcast. And I'm jealous. I kind of want some of that dubbing. Man, I'm gonna I'm gonna pull some streets. You might be able to do another another run just for you, but I don't know. I make no guarantees. You may have won our hearts today to him, but you may not be eligible to win the dubbing. But for those of you that are eligible to win, remember to let the superglue on your fingers dry before grabbing another pinchon Chew way Back, Love and love