Bengals Booth Podcast: The Comeback

Darren Simmons. The Bengals Booth Podcast is presented by bud Light Seltzer. Refresh the game, and here's a quick reminder that you can add the latest edition of this podcast delivered right to your phone, tablet, or computer by subscribing on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, Spotify, or odd Bean. It's

the greatest thing since a new toothbrush. I went to the dentist last week shout out to doctor Eric Lenz, and as is always the case, I left his office with a little goodie bag, including a new toothbrush, and the first time I brushed my teeth with it, I was reminded of how good it feels to use a brand new one. According to the American Dental Association, a toothbrush is typically in good working order for about three

to four months. So if it's been longer than that and the brushes are frayed and pointing every which way, by yourself a new toothbrush, it'll put a smile on your face, hopefully an even brighter one. Now time for Dave Lapham to answer my questions and yours. Lap Let's start with the return of Joe Burrow to Cincinnati. He'll be rehabbing five days a week at Paul Brown Stadium, and he did a zoom call with reporters on Tuesday. What stood out to you in that zoom call? I

think his positive attitude about the rehab. You know, I think that he feels like he's a quick healer. The the torn ro trator cuff that he had surgery on and the quick healing process that he's gone through already from a rehab standpoint, I think is an indicator. You know that that's that's how his body type is, which is which is encouraging. And you know the thing about him is every grind is a challenge and this might be the biggest grind slash challenge of his of his

career obviously, but I think he's up to it. I think in his mind he wants to be have the training staff and the rehab people say he's the best we ever had. Joe Burrow wants to be number one and everything, and that's that's the way he approaches it. And uh, and I think that's a that's a good thing. Obviously. I liked how he acknowledged the need to be better

on the deep ball. I think sometimes athletes will kind of dan it's around something that was a weakness or a problem, and he addressed that head on, even saying that he needs to get bigger and stronger. Yeah. I think that that. Uh. You know, sometimes guys, players, really good players, are the last ones to realize they still have things they need to get better at. You know, they quote think they've arrived. As such. I don't think Joe Burrow is the kind of guy that'll ever think

he's arrived. I think he's one of those guys that is always gonna, you know, strive to be better, find a weakness, build on that, and then and then take a positive and make that even better. You know. I think he just across the board. He's always never going to be satisfied, always going to want to strive to be better, and that's what makes the good ones great. He said something else that caught my ear, and this also gets back to something he said in his interview

with Colin Cowherd last week. When Coward talked to him about what he can improve on from his rookie year or what lessons he learned, he specifically brought up the Colts game and said he learned that when it's twenty one nothing in the NFL, you cannot take your foot off the gas pedal. Yeah, there's there's no doubt. I mean, today's offense is the way people can attack the excellence at the quarterback position. No lead is safe, There's no

question about it. That's why you know, in the Pittsburgh Cleveland game, when they jumped out to that twenty one nothing lead, I thought, well, yeah, that's a good that's a good indicator that this game could turn out well

for them tonight. But is certainly not over. And you know, even Chris and all we're talking about when they in the second and the third quarter, there's still a two score game plus, so They're like, this football game is not over and that's just life in the National Football League, there's no question about it. And that's something that you

know you have to adjust to for sure. So Burrow hopes to be throwing in mid February, twelve weeks after surgery, and he seems confident that he'll be ready to go in time for Week one of the regular season next year. Do you have any concern about him pushing too hard? I think that's always a concern with the guy of Joe Burrow's makeup. You know, Joe, Joe is h He's a very self motivated guy. You don't have to light

a firecracker under Joe's but to get him going. Man, you know, he wakes up ready to roll every single day. Um So I think, honestly, yeah. The thing that you have to think about if you're directing his rehab, like Nick Cosgrey is gonna Nick. Nick is excellent. Nick's as good as there is in the in the world. Really in doing what he does, is you're gonna have to put a harness on him and continue to pull him back.

You don't have to worry about pushing him. He's gonna push himself but you know, if you feel like boy, you know, my experience tells me, even though he might be able to do it at this stage, might be doing a little too much. I'm gonna pull him back, pull the reins a little bit, and uh, you know, try to tame this wild bronkin buck right now. Um, I think I think that's kind of that's kind of the mindset that everybody's gonna have to approach you with.

And Joe's gonna have to realize that these guys, know, you know, it's not it's not anything personal. It's not like they're trying to, you know, retard your rehab process or anything like that. But you have to have trust and faith in your rehab people to make sure that you don't become your own worst enemy. You know, you don't do too much because there are going to be setbacks, and you don't want there to be self impost setbacks. Those are the worst setbacks to have when you do

it to yourself. All right, let's move on to the return of Frank Pollock as the offensive line coach. Were you at all surprised the Bengals were able to lure him back, considering that Zach didn't try to keep him in the first place, when Frank was still under contract a couple of years ago. Yeah, that that was an interesting situation. I think it shows that both men aren't small,

you know. I mean it was a situation where, all right, Zach had made a commitment that he was going to go with Jim Turner, and I think, I mean, there's no doubt in my mind that Mike Brown would have liked Zach to interview. You know, Frank can see what he thought. But at that point, I think through the grapevine or whatever, I think he knew that you know, Zach was was had his guy, had his guy, Jim Turner.

So I think I'm going to credit Mike Brown on this. Obviously, Frank asked Mike Brown probably to say, look, would you please just let me go because I have opportunities out there. Don't don't don't make it a situation where you might want me to hang around an interview with a guy that I know has already made his mind up. Can I go somewhere else and take advantage of an opportunity that might present itself. So bottom line is, no bridges were burned anywhere. You know, I think there was a

healthy ghost through respect everywhere. Frank said right away that he appreciated the way that he was treated by the Brown family upon his return. So it tells me that not only whe he was treated while he was here, but when he exited, he was treated with respect. So I think the fact that that that's the way they parted ways, I think led to coming back together again. And and and I think the run game coordinator, even though you know it's just a title, how much responsibility

would come with that title. I think there will be some. And I think that you know, in the in the progression of Frank Pollock's career to have that title in addition to offensive line coach, and it probably economically was a benefit as well to have that title. Then you come back and put things back together again, and I see them working well together. And the good thing is the players that were here when Frank was here the first time are excited about his return, and that's always

a big plus. Joe Mixon among them. Joe Burrow told us in that Zoom interview yesterday that Joe Mixon called him up after Frank Pollock was announced and was quote hooting and hollering, why do you think Frank is so popular among players. I think it's his whole approach to the game of football. You know, some guys talk about their love of the game. Frank doesn't have to talk about it. He just shows it all the time. It

oozes out of his pores, you know. And he played, you know, he played nine years in the NFL as a player, so he understands a lot of what the guys are thinking, what they're going through, you know, from from firsthand experience. And I think that's always a plus. I mean, I think he feels like he can relate to the locker room because he did as a player, and he knows, he knows the type of coach that he respected as a player, so he wants to be that type of coach and make sure that he builds

those kind of relationships. So I think all of that is a part of the equation. Plus, you know, he's damn good at what he does. I mean, he's really a good He teaches not only schematic not only does he teach a good scheme that you can believe in, And that's very important. Are you buying, honestly buying what your coach is selling. And I think with Frank, Guys really do consume and buy everything he's selling in terms of his schematic, this technique. And he doesn't just teach technique.

He teaches you know, how to do, how to how to I execute the technique. Here's what I want you to do, and here's why I want you to do it. And when you have those questions answered, you know, it's much easier to digest, you know. And and I think he also is as a former player. I think he felt like, when I come off the field, if I have something to say to my coach, I hope my coach listens to it, you know, and appreciates it a little bit. So I think he realizes he knows that

Hopkins is smart. He knows Bobby Hart's smart. He knows there are some smart guys intelligence football IQ guys and that and that upfront. If they come off the field and say something, you know, it's I don't know if I can believe that. I think he there's there's a trust there, you know, that develops between the line coach and the lineman, and I think that's a that's a

big factor. I've always always said that when the coach has both they both respect and like, I mean that that's and you don't necessarily have to like them, but when that does happen, when you have both, man, there's a synergistic effect there. And I've said before and I still maintain that the guys that I saw that the best example of that I've ever seen as Dick Lebal.

I don't think there's one ex player of Dick Lebal, whether it's quote disgruntled about lack of playing time or whatever, that does not love and respect Dick Lebo as a coach. That's hard to do. And I think Frank because of, you know, his experience as a player. Dick was a Hall of Fame player as well as a Hall of Fame coach. Frank was played a long time in the National Football League. That's hard to do, and I think players both respect, you know, and like Frank as well.

The use of the word center just Dick has just elevated the intelligence level of this podcast, So thank you very much. Billy Price is another guy who very publicly came out in support of this move. He clearly looks at it like a new lease on life. Do you think Billy or anybody else in particular benefits from the return of Frank Pollock. I think that the thing that you have to go into it with, and I think Frank is doing it as well. It's kind of it's

a clean slate, you know. I'm going to start by examining tape and see what I see with my own eyes in terms of what talent is available to me on the current roster, who's approaching free agency, who's back for sure, all those kind of things. Can they play. But you know, Billy had a great relationship with Franky were when they were first together, so you would expect that to continue, and Billy is looking for a fresh start, obviously,

a new lease on life is such. The thing that Billy has to do is continued to try to improve on the areas where he's had problems. And in my mind, his big thing is balance. Because of his arms being a little bit short, he's out of balance a lot. You know, he's over extended his chins over his skis and you know he's on the ground some. So that that's the biggest thing. I don't care who the coach is if they can't figure out, together with the player, how to keep that player in balance and let him,

you know, stay on his feet and finish plays. Um, you know, it doesn't really matter. But you know, maybe Frank has has some ideas to help Billy with that. You know that Jim didn't, and maybe Billy can respond to that and make an adjustment. And it's all about, you know, adjustments, and sometimes sometimes a coaching change is just what a player needs. People say, oh, he went to a he got a fresh start, new location, you know, new environment. You can get that internally instead of not

necessarily a new place, but a new environment. I mean, it's it's the guy you deal with every single day of practice, your coach. When that changes, everything changes. So offensive line coaches filled Troy Walters is reportedly being promoted to become the wide receivers coach, They still have vacancies a defensive line coach and running backs coach as far as we know at least any thoughts on what they

should be looking for there. If I'm the head coach, get together with the rest of my position coaches on offense and say who have you coached with that you really think is that I was standing running back? Give

me your guy's input. Who do you think would mesh well, you know, with with the rest of these coaches, who do you think would mesh well with the type of personalities we have, you know, players that they're going to be coaching um and and there's always uh some you know, a list can be made up of that, because then then the mesh would be easier because there'd be some

familiarity a little bit. And the same with defense. I would I would sit down, uh you know, if I'm lou Anna Rumo or Zach you know, I'd sit down with lou and offense, sit down with Brian Callahan and say, no, make a list based on what your assistants are saying, and you make me a list of guys that you feel would would uh, would mesh well marry well with the rest of our coaching staff, and let's target then instead of doing this big you know, bulls eye target,

this big target, why don't we bulls eye it a little bit and see if we can come up with somebody that would would fit in philosophically, what we're trying to do, how we're trying to teach it, all those kind of things. All right, I am putting you in the shoes of Duke Tobin. Yeah, give me your top three priorities in order you're talking about from a position standpoint, Yes, sir, I would talk about initially both lines of scrimmage DAN one and two. You know, however, you want to do

it one and one. A doesn't because even in this era of all kinds of formations, all kinds of personnel groupings, window dressing, motion jes see, follow this crap. Who advanced in the playoffs, the teams that won the line of scrimmage period, the teams that won the line of scrimmage. Cleveland beat Pittsburgh up up front on both sides of

the ball. I was very surprised about it, but I guess I shouldn't have been because Cleveland Pro Football Focus has the Cleveland Browns number one rated run team, run game old line and pass protection old line, and they played that way. So I think that I think it

starts there. It starts there. I think you have to find out who's who you're going to be able to make sure you don't lose anything in free agency, obviously, and what you might be able to retain in free agency, and then go to the draft and approach it accordingly based on what happened in free agency. First and foremost, But then I would address both lines of scrimmage. Initially I would. I'm a firm believer in you know, I think whenever guys have big games, guys up front played

well as well and gave an opportunity. You know, you can have very talented players and they can look very average if the offensive line is getting overwhelmed by the defensive line, and vice versa. So if O line and D line are one and two in either order, do you have a third priority? You know, I would, depending on what happens on the back end. I just think, you know, if I've got my defense line address and my offensive line addressed, I'm looking at, uh, you know,

somebody to cover people on the back end. I do think it's a it's a you know, it's a passing league. Still, even though teams that are running the football did well in the in the playoffs, Uh, Cleveland ran it well, obviously, Baltimore, Well, we know that the AFC northall other than Pittsburgh now, which is crazy for me to even think to say and then say it, they can't run the football. That's amazing. But um yeah, I think I think having a cover

guy back there. But still in my mind, Dan, you can you can still get away with not having top notch cover people if you have an outstanding pass rush. If you have no pass rush, you have to address the back end. But even even with that, you can't cover people forever back there. It's impossible. The athletes are too good. So if you pass rush and coverage go hand in hand, Jing and Yang, But I would still try to improve both of those errors in that side

of the football, all right. I threw out an invitation on Twitter for ask lap questions. They came pouring in this week. Many about the draft will start with Sam and basically many people ask the same question with different wording. Did the performance of Alabama wide receiver Davante Smith in the National Championship Game? Make you rethink what the Bengals

should do with the fifth pick? And JT put it this way, If Piney Sewell, Jamar Chase, and Davante Smith are all there at number five, who do you think the Bengal should take. I'm like falling along what I talked about just a little bit ago. I'm a suol guy at that point. I think all those guys are phenomenal players, great weapons. But you know, T Higgins, Tyler

Boyd still have guys. If you don't have people up front that are giving your quarterback an opportunity to not be affected by what he the first stage of it is, oh my god, I want to get I don't want to be watching the pass rush and being concerned there. I get to get my eyes down field the coverage. And if you're getting hit quarterbacks, I mean they don't get their eyes downfield as quickly as they should, you know, And and there's a whole and then and then it

just kind of unfolds on unravels from there. But um, as I've seen, I've seen great skill people wasted because they weren't given an opportunity to perform. But if if if honestly, if Stool's gone, for example, at number five, and I think he might go as high as number two. I think the Jets might take him at number two. So if he and you know, and try to develop Donald and that tackle would help develop him, they have one and maybe try to get the book in tackling

and see if Donald can develop. But if if Seol is gone and the next tackle is you know on my board is down there at you know, ten or eleven and I'm picking at five, and I've got these receivers that would would be closer to the top five, I'd stay true to my board, you know, I would. I would think about it at that point in time. I still would always if it's close, I would. I would draft by need if it's not a huge disparity

and where I have them ranked on my board. But if there's a pretty good disparity there, if you know you're dropping out of the top five with a guy you're picking a fifth, and you're dropping out of the top five and you're maybe barely staying in the top ten with a position of need, I might stay true to my board and see if I can get it done early in the second round with the bigger need. A related question to that from Joe Joe Jammer. If you trade down, how far are you willing to go?

If I'm if I'm trading down, I've got to have at least two guys in mind that i'd be comfortable with. So if I'm trading down to say number twelve, and I don't think one of the two guys that I'm comfortable with trading back, I think there's no way that both of them are going to be gone, I'd trade back, but my mind is dicey if both of them might be gone, I wouldn't trade back that far, you know, I'd always I would never trade back thinking I have this guy in mind, and that's the guy that's going

to you never know. You have to have a plan B. You can't. You can in my mind, you can never trade back if you don't have two people that you know on your board. Aren't There's not a big disparity with them on the board. They're about the same spot on the board, maybe a couple of different positions, but on the same spot on the board that you'd be

good with. If you trade it back and then getting the additional pick, you might be able to address the other need that you had of the two options, you know, with that extra pick or your fifth pick in the second round. But I would never trade back for one specific guy thinking oh, I'm going to get him. Man the draft pickle, telling you you'll get slapped right across the face and doing that from three kid TAXI. Great title, by the way, And this is related to the possibility

of potentially drafting DeVante Smith. Is there a fear of drafting players from Alabama, it seems like they have injury issues once they're selected. Yeah, that's uh, that's very interesting because particularly at the running back position, because Nick Saban works those horses. I mean, he runs those horses. He doesn't he doesn't walk them around the track man. They're always running and and and his practices are pretty physical.

So there has been, you know, a very pretty long history of running backs that have been injured when they're at Alabama either that or come out and or injured pretty quickly early in their career. Because you know, it does in my mind, it does make a ton of sense. You only have so many carries in that body, you know, physical carries, and if you're burning them up early, you know, that's a that's a little bit of a consideration. But to me, the the trend was so dynamic that it was.

It wasn't just oh that's a coincidence. You know, there has to be a little bit more to it than that. But at the receiver position, I'm not really sure. I mean, the thing obviously, the thing about Smith that is going to concern people one hundred and seventy seven pounds. You know, he was a buck sixty six when he was a freshman at uh at Alabama and they beat him up unbelievable eleven pounds. You know, but he's wiry, he's still strong. But in the SEC, in the in the playoffs, those

are good players. But the NFL is a cut above. I mean the NFL the corners run faster linebacker. When he when he beat the OHIU State linebacker. Um, I'm not saying he's not going to be the linebacker in the NFL, but it might be a better match than it wasn't that college game. They hit hard, they're they're bigger, faster, stronger, and can run. That means there's going to be bigger impact.

And you know, you're always you're always worried about a guy at that size, you know, with that kind of impact coming across the middle of the football field for

example of what have you so? Um, yeah, it's that that I guess that's something that you have to think about these He's all, we're coming at every level and when guys overcome it to the because the level that he has in terms of the best, he came out of nowhere and this guy he wasn't even he wasn't even the number one receiver at Alabama going into the season until there was injury, broke an ankle, and you got to you gotta give him a ton of respect. But um, it's a it's a small sample size, but

it's a hilacious sample size. There's no doubt about it. From Bengals, Bobby, did you respond better in your playing days to a gym turner coaching style or a Frank Pollock coaching style? Back when I played, there was it was more universally a gym turner coaching style, and so you didn't really experience, uh, you know the other I'm not saying it didn't happen, and I'm not saying I didn't have coaches, a ligne coaches, a couple that weren't

more like the Frank Pollock coaching style. And I think the Frank Pollock coaching style in today's NFL works better because players, I mean, it's not that we didn't want to ask why, but you just didn't. It just that was the that was the culture. What a coach said was gospel, and whether you believe that or not, you better change your beliefs because it's gospel today. And I

believe I think this has improved the game today. Everybody says why why, coach, Just tell me why, just so I can understand if I think that you have to you have to change with the times. I think coaches have to adapt and I think, you know, personality and being able to deal with different players. Nobody's the exact same physically. And that's that's where I think frank Um basically excels is he's got his techniques Stan but it's not like one size fits all. Well, we may have

to modify this technique because you've got short arms. You have a long trunk, but shorter arms, And you can do this because you have long arms and a shorter trunk. Not everybody's the same physically. So he does a good job of, you know, being malleable with his technic to be able to you know, be inn amiva, you know, and adjust to all the different body types. Saying with the personalities, I mean, no, nobody's the exact same personality wise.

So if you're going to just how you do things from a technique standpoint, and I think they're much better doing that these days. Mind coaches are in the NFL. Back in the day, it was more like this is what we're doing it, boys, and this is how we're doing it, and no questions asked. Yes, they're a coach, and now it's much different. You know, here's here's what I want done. But if your body doesn't really quite able to handle that, let's figure out a way to

adjust that technique a little bit. And the same thing with input on on you know, how to block a certain configuration or whatever the case may be. I think it's uh. I think you do have to have a different working relationship with players. And I'm not saying the thing about Frank that I respect dan is um. He does listen, but he's the decision maker. It's I'm a democracy, it's not a dictatorship. But and he'll listen, but he's

still the decision maker. They're not going to make the decision for him, but he's going to listen and get feedback, you know, and decide. And I think I think that's all valuable. I think players appreciate it. All right. I'm going to combine questions from Tim and Ryan. Tim asked, do you think the Bengals will sign a couple of veteran offensive linemen in the free agent market? Ryan asked

which free agent offensive lineman would you target? And he listed these names, Joe Tuoney, Brandon Schurf, John Miller, Alejandro Villaneuava, and Austin Blythe I'll throw in a couple of others that are out there, Trent Williams and Taylor Moton. So will they sign veteran offensive lineman And is there anybody that would especially excite you? Yeah, I haven't looked at at that much tape of a lot of these guys

to see how they're playing currently. The one thing that I would not do is sign somebody based on reputation. You know. It's because I'm telling you, we see that some player get to a certain stage of their career and they fall off a cliff. Other players don't, and you never know where that cliff is, and you never know when that fall is starting. So from one year to the next, the level of play of a guy

may be dramatically different. And if you give a guy a ton of money based on how he performed, you know, over the last three years, but that last year it wasn't really as good as the other two, you know, I wouldn't want to get caught in that trap. All those guys are really good football players? Are they or they have been? I would not give a lot of money to villain a Wave at this stage of his career.

I think he's definitely on the back nine. And you know, if Pittsburgh wants to pay him for being a great player for them all those years, great, But if I'm the Bengals, I'm not going to pay him to be a great Steeler. I want to be a great Bengal. You know, I'm not interested what you did with the Pittsburgh Steelers. And it's that way with everybody. And sometimes when guys do it is it is strange. When guys

do change locations. Sometimes their level of play changes too, whether it be they really had a fit with an offensive line coach there with for six years in their career and then they go somewhere else and it's a different line coach with different techniques like we're talking about, and damn it, we're doing it this way. I don't care that's the way you used to do it. We're doing it this way. All of a sudden, he's a different player, you know. It's it's weird how some of

that stuff unfold. So I can understand why some teams have the philosophy and mindset of in a perfect world. We want to keep our coaching staff in tact for continuity, and we want to build through the draft and let that marriage happen. Let the same guys develop those players. You know, if it's working, obviously, if it's not working, you gotta make adjustments. So there's no you know, there's no one hundred percent given truism, you know, on free

agency or really anything else. I mean, if it were that exact the science, everybody would win every game. And that's impossible, but I would I would think about I think they've got plenty of options inside Dan. I think the veteran players are proven. At the end of the season. They got you know, Sue Philo knows what he's doing. There's there's no question about it. And they've got players veteran players have played multiple positions and definitely can play guard.

If people play tacky, you can play guard in the National Football League. You know, if you've develop big Fred, I mean all those things. That's what Frank's doing now, is he's trying to see how these guys play. Looking at their body mechanics on tape. Does that fit the techniques? Time that that kind of fits the techniques I'm going to try to teach here and then go out in free agency of the guys that are available, is that

a better option? Then? Look at this guy's body time, that's perfect for what I want done, that's perfect for how I want it done. All of that has to take place, But I do think if they could they could find an improvement on the edge. That's where that's where the rubber meets the road. I think in free agency, if they can get it done from Marty, what will the Bengals do about a backup quarterback? Well, that's a great question. You know. The one thing that you can't

just worry about economics. But the thing about Finley he's still on a rookie contract as well, so you know, can you do you look at him as is he a guy that can get you through a game or a boy? Do you need to make sure you have a guy like what happened this year? A guy that is going to have to get you through a handful

of football games? Is that Ryan Finley? You know? And okay, okay, the attracting this is still on a rookie contract but still very very inexperienced you want a big game for you with a very creative game plan, you got to go out and get something else. In my opinion, how much money do you spend on that backup quarterback? How much salary capitoon do you try to uh you try to uh, you know, take up in that regard that Brandon Allen do enough. You talked about a road coaster.

I mean, you know, quarterback rating within the one twenties over seventy five percent completion percentage and then the following week down to a squardus a big goose egg. So that's a that's a meteoric, that's a heck of a rise and a big fall. Man that's that's a bigger deal than the beast that's Peaks and Valley is bigger than the beast up at King's Island. So yeah, do you decide. I do think though they like them, I

do think they like them. And I do think that his performances were based on who he was playing against, and you have to factor that in. But overall, do you think you can get through multiple games with with that type of player? And they did, you know, and and and it was it was not h it was competitive. I mean it looked like an NFL operation out there to meet with him at a quarterback. So I think you have to definitely evaluate him and then see what else is out there and how much how much does

it cost? Last one from Daniel? Would you resign Carl Lawson or Will Jackson if you could only keep one? Yeah, that's uh, that's the big if. And I probably make sure that I kept lossing because you don't have any pass rush's. He's the only guy that gave you consistent pass rush. Now Hubbard was injured and he came back to play Sam. Sam is empty the effort, you know, bucket every snap. But even you know, even a guy like Sam physically you're only allowed. Your body's only saying

you can do so much with that bad elbow. So he was, you know, trying to do stuff with one arm, you know, and did it well. But I think he's going to be fine. That gives you a second option. But to me, you paid all this money for Trey Wayne's never gonna snap out of him. I'm saying, all right, if I lose Carl Lawson, what do I have upfront? If I lose will, at least I have Trey Wayne's and I thought he was one of the best in the league. I gave him a ton of money, you know,

and at least i'd have somebody else there. Who's my guy? If I don't sign Carl Lawson and then you can address you know, the position group in the draft. You know, it's like if I keep Carl Lawson and addressing the draft, or keep Carl Awston and lose Will Like we were talking about cornerback as a need, you know, maybe you have to move that that position up up even a little bit in terms of needs. So free agency dictates draft. It always hasn't It always will to ge and yang

of that. But I don't know which is easier to find in the draft. A real significant, meaningful pass rusher that translates well to the National Football League or a cover guy that's a that's a that's a good question. That's a hell of a question. And what this particular draft, you know, if if you're if you're trying to decide who to sign a free agency what's out there and free agency? If I lose my guy, what's in the draft?

If I lose my guy at either one of those positions, which one can I afford lose because there's more depth to build that in other free agency we could sign and the draft potentially, or we can double down. So I think there's some, you know, a lot of a lot of thinking that goes into it. But in my mind, I still maintain if you can affect the quarterback right away with a good pass rusher, it's easier to cover back there. And I'm not saying you get anybody, you know,

any any joe off the street to do it. It's not like that. But if I had my choice, which would you rather have? Would you rather have a pass rush that gives the quarterback less than three seconds the snaps or a secondary that has, you know, two really good corners, I'd take that pass rush. The other thing about Carl Lawson Dan is he affected the run game

better this year. So if you're if I'm building a defense, I want to make sure I can stop the run and rush the passer with that's starts up front, and then the back end is the second. Okay, compliment that pass rushing with good coverage. Now you have to have guys that'll, you know, set an answer in tacle the corner, but you have to have guys that can affect the run the end of the the pass, and Carl Lawson showed

he's not a one trick pony. He showed himself against the run a little bit, so to me stop the run, put him in must passing situations. Have a pass rusher that can affect the quarterback and then have Trey Wayne's back there. If you lose Will Jackson. If you have them both, that's even better. But if I had to pick one, I'd probably go with Carl Lawson. I guess all right. People are always asking me wins Lap, I'm gonna get a Twitter account. I tell him it's never

gonna happen. But this is the next best thing. You have answered their ask lap questions. Appreciate it, and you're exactly right. I think never's a long time, but not that long. The Bengals Booth podcast is presented by Bud Light Seltzer. It's and refreshing with a hint of fruit flavor. Despite a final record of four to eleven and one, there was a unit that performed well for the Bengals

in twenty twenty, the special teams. According to Football Outsiders, the Bengals graded out ninth best in the NFL and overall special teams play and second in the AFC North behind Baltimore. Recently, special teams coordinator Darren Simmons joined Lapping Me to discuss the play of his group. Darren, what were the bright spots for you in twenty twenty? Well, you know, I think as a unit overall, anytime you don't give up a lot of explosive play, block kicks,

returns for touchdowns, that that's one positive. You know. I think the fact that we were able to pull together some guys really stepped up this year when we lost a couple of players, you know, one of which there were coal foundations what we do, like Clayton FEDLND. I thought we had some veteran guys really step up and

play well and do a lot for us. You know, there's a couple of guys that really come to mind, you know, early in the year, whenever Sean Williams is hurt, Giovanni Bernard really stepped up and fulfilled a couple roles until Sean I could kind of get back after a belie it was a hamstring or calf whatever he had there early on, and then Sean really played his tail off and it was really a big part of what

we did throughout the season. So I think, you know, being able for him to transition a little bit from his role on our team from being in a starting safety to being a really a core special teams player was a really bright spot for me, something that I'm personally very proud of him of. Um. You know, I thought our punt team, in terms of phase work, I thought our punt team does a nice job really the whole year, with exception to maybe one play against Pittsburgh

they gave up a forty yard return to McLeod. Otherwise, I thought we covered pretty well there. You know, I thought the relative to the number of kicks we were getting to return, and I thought our kickoff return team was was solid. Um. You know, we had an opportunity to even make a couple more plays. But I thought Brandon Wilson's play um in that regard, after he came back after an injury, or even before his injury then came back, I thought was good. So, Um, there were

a couple there were some bright spots. Obviously, we uh um, I always want more, um, And you know, anytime we set out in this thing, our goals to to be the best, to be the best in the league, and we were feel a little short of that, but um, you know him, I was pretty proud of the way we played football. Outsiders always rate your your your special teams amongst the best in the NFL, and rightfully so.

And uh. In terms of actual kicking the football, Kevin Huber went into the last game seventh in the NFL and average in sixth and net and UH. And then you obviously were evaluating Cyber uh and over Randy Bullock uh down the stretch of the season. Where do you stand with respect to the seasons those guys had and what you anticipate for training camp in twenty twenty one. Well, I'll start with Evan first. Obviously, it was an important year for Kevin. He's a he's an undrestricted free agent,

so it was important for him to punt well. And I think he answered the bell as he has you know the last cheval years. UM. I thought he got off to a really good start. It punted well up until probably the last couple of games of the year. UM, but he had some some issues that UH. I know he probably didn't finish as strongly as he wanted to. But and it's not gonna that's not gonna show up a lot statistically, Um, But but I know he wanted to punt a little better down the stretch. You know.

Obviously it would have been unbelievable if we could have made the play on the on the seventy whatever it was, two yard punt yesterday would have been unbelievable play to kind of helped cap his season off. Um. But but all in all, I've been pleased with with him, you know it. Uh, it's such a weight off my shoulders. To have somebody that I know and somebody that I trust, and somebody who knows exactly what I want out of each play and how to manage that, whether it's plenty

or holding, is a big deal to me. And he's continued to do that at a high level, I think, Um, you know, and I think probably the last two years has been two of his better years statistically in his career. So that's pretty unique. He's kind of getting He's really been able to hold his line of production, you know, over time and actually improved in some areas you know, in terms of the kicking situation. Um, it's something that we've got to talk about as a staff. And then

his organizations to what we do going forward. Obviously, Austin Cybery is somebody that is under contract and he's still under his rookie contract because we claimed him from from Cleveland, so he's stilling his rookie contract, so he's still, you know, again under contract with us. UM. You know, our discussion with Randy Bullick will take place here, you know, over the course of the coming time as to where we

want to go. Randy's a free agent also, UM, and how we want to approach that if we want to have him back and have a competition for that spot in twenty twenty one. Again, it's still very early, you know, I don't have a concrete answer for that yet, unfortunately, but we certainly will the coming days. But again it's obviously a position that we've we've got to get better

production out of. We're visiting with Special Teams coordinator Darren Simmons. Darren, after you resigned this past season, prior to this year, we had a long conversation and you talked about your burning desire to win again. Obviously, you know, you do this because at your job partly, and you've got a family to support and all of that. But you've been in the league long enough where the ring is the thing.

You're trying to win a Super Bowl title. How difficult have the last couple have been last couple of years been for you personally? Well, it's really been a struggle for me personally. You know. It's like I told our players on our Saturday Night Zoom, our last real meeting special teams will be you know, I wrapped it up. I think a couple of our captains and really everybody in general. I've got such a special group of guys that man, every time I asked something of them, they

answered the bell. They never blinked. Everybody knew the the landscape, the situation we're in with with the pandemic, and how different things were, and and uh uh, you know, I really appreciated their efforts this year because it is it is tough, you know, when you're not winning games, even though we may be doing some things and trying to contribute as much as we can in the kicking game, when you're not winning games, you don't feel the culmination

of your work. You don't feel the positive side of that, that that that it affects enough. And you know, I told our players and I firmly believe this, I said, I, you know, I really I play and I coach. I'll play. I coach this game for for two things, and for two goals. And number one it's to win the super Bowl. I mean you, that's the ultimate goal, um that I have, is to win the super Bowl. We've obviously fallen short of that my time here. I said in the second one.

The one thing I can't control is we do it for respect, and I think you do it for respect of your peers and more importantly respect of your opponents. And so the one thing that you can grasp mat is is every time I go across the fields in the game to shake the other guy's hand, you know, I want to feel like I've earned his respect. And that's the one silver lining that I've been able to get out of it. But again, it has been I'll be lying if I said otherwise. It's been very difficult, uh,

you know, to not win. And that's something obviously we got to try to work to improve on. Just as a team in general, certainly estimate kicking game two. We all have a hand in it. We all have hand in and everybody has a hand and when things don't go right. You just want to have You just want to make sure you have a hand in when you're succeeding too, And we got to get more of that for sure. But it's really been a struggle. You're not

going anywhere. You're the best in the business, and the Bengals have you under contract and you're an assistant head coach. You are a resource that if I were a head coach, I'd be tapping into. You've been here a long time. You've been hearing successful times. You've been here in times that have not been quite as successful. You have a vast, huge knowledge of your encyclopedia basically of almost two decades

of what's gone on here in Cincinnati. Do you feel like your opinions are gonna be sought after and if they're not, will you give them unsolicited? Well? I wanted to be certainly be a collaborative thing. You know, I really appreciate I did feel like, after if you want to call it, gaining that title this past offseason, zach Um did come to me with a lot of things, and that's something that I certainly appreciate. You know that that he entrusted my opinions, what my thoughts were when

he asked for him. Um, there's some things that I will give him that if I feel that can help affect things or help things in some manner, I'm certainly going to give him my thoughts UM that way. But but in the end, ultimate it's his team and he wants, and he'll put the stamp on it that he wants, and he'll push the direction on it that he wants, whatever that may be. But but again, I do feel like I'm a very big part of that. I do feel like my voice or my opinion matters to him.

I think he certainly listens to it, Um, you know. And again, like I said, collaboratively, we've got to be we got to put a plan in place that that gets us to turn the corner here, that gets us to get back to the team that you know, we've been in the past, and then really push us over

to the top. It certainly felt short of that. I don't think that's any secret, Um, but you know, it's I hope going forward here, after me having a year under my belt of being really in this role for the first time in my career, that I can help him even more than what I have done in the past, and h you know, we can help or I can help push things that I think would help us improve, or or maybe we should think about doing it this way, because it is I've been here a long time, I've

been in this league a long time. I've um you know, I have knowledge of how you know what my opinion may be, or how I see other teams do things, and and hope it help. That's going to do it. For this episode of the Bengals Booth Podcast, brought to you by bud Light Seltzer, refresh the game. If you haven't done so already, please subscribe, and if you have a minute, give it a rating or share a comment

that helps more Bengals fans find this podcast. I'm Dan Horde, and thanks for listening to the Bengals Booth Podcast