Bengals Booth Podcast: See Clearly Now

of the Bengals. Now here's a quick reminder that you can have the latest edition of this podcast delivered right to your phone, tablet, or computer by subscribing wherever you get your podcasts. It's the greatest thing since LK Sausages at Finley Market for out of town listeners. One of Cincinnati's real treasures is Finley Market, located in the Cities over the Rhine neighborhood. It's been ranked as one of the top public markets in the world with fresh produce, meat, fish, breads,

et cetera, plus restaurants and food stalls. I'm a regular there and one of my favorite stops is LK Sausages, which offers more than forty varieties of handcrafted sausage plus bacon and other meat products. Grilling season is almost here and I am salivating thinking about LK Sausages sizzling over hot charcoal. So if you've never in, check out LK Sausages at Finlay Market. Your taste buds well, thank you. Now let's get to football. If you're a big Bengals fan,

you're probably familiar with Joe Goodberry. He's been cranking out great Bengals content for more than a decade, and his film breakdowns and player evaluations are exceptional. Joe is currently part of the first Star Logistics media group and you can find his Bengals on the Brain videos on YouTube. He's also a great Twitter follow at Joe Goodbarry. We spoke this week about what Joe calls the most important

off season in Bengals history. Joe, you've done some recent videos on your YouTube channel where you did a free agency simulation and a draft simulation. Your highest priced free agent acquisition was an interior defensive lineman, Justin Mattabik of the Ravens. Your top two draft picks were interior defensive lineman Johnny Newton of Illinois in the first round and mammoth to Andre Sweat of Texas in the second round.

So this would suggest did you consider upgrading the interior defensive line to be a huge priority for the Bengals this offseason. I do.

think the Bengals would. I tried to operate as the Bengals there, but I didn't think they would throw huge money at him, and when he was still there after a week, similar to the Orlando Brown junior situation last year, I said, Okay, let's run the simulation, let's throw some money at him, and we got him and I today I ran on ESPN two also that justin Matta Bikay, they listed the best fit would be the Bengals, and

I was like, yeah, sign me up for that. That's a guy that we loved pre draft as well in our process and thought he'd be a future all Pro player, and here he is on the cusp of stardom. I think he's well worth that money. And then you get to the draft. And that's the thing, like everyone wants to either do the free agent simulators or they do the draft simulators, and they don't put the two together. So that was my idea. There's, hey, you've got to do both. Here. One comes before the other for a

reason because it affects how you draft. And then I get there, and I believe Johnny Newton is worth a top ten pick in every draft. I think everything from the film to the data to the projection of the everything I look at for draft analysis has this guy is an future All Pro type of player, And so how do I deny that? How do I turn down a guy like that? That was clearly the last one I felt was the blue chip player remaining on the board.

And hey, so we go back to back defensive tackle with our highest offseason resource and then come back in round two and Tomordray Sweat is just a different guy than those two. He has a nose tackle and a big body and they need that. So yeah, that's how it played out. And you know, I'm not ashamed to say that they need defensive tackle and I feel that and fixed it.

maybe some of those guys aren't there anymore. But do you favor spending a big chunk of your free agency budget on a guy like that or would you prefer multiple tier two tier three type guys.

You know, nobody wants that, but it happens, and you have fifteen million dollars in cap space tied into that player when you could have potentially three guys making that money and being part of a rotation, and especially defensive tackle, seems like it's a rotation heavy position throughout the league, especially across the defensive line. I think defensive end is one of the deepest groups in the league in terms of talent, and you just see the best teams have

these full rotations across the front. Bengals really couldn't do that last year. And here's the problem, though, is they are missing. I'm kind of going to contradict myself just a little bit. They're missing DJ Reader if he walks right and that's their impact defensive tackle. Replacing that with Tier three guys is probably not gonna work. You're not gonna get the same level of play. We understand that there are some things you have to accept when a big,

big name guy, big time player leaves your building. But if you can get a top guy, if it fits how the Bengals do contracts, if he wants to come here, I'm not going to deny it because I'm watching the playoffs and what I came away with in the playoffs this year was filling the roster around superstars. It Let Chris Jones win on third down, right, let Travis Kelsey win on third down on offense, and fill in the

rest the rest. It matters, But does it matter as much as the guys that are going to make a play for you when your team absolutely needs it. And if that means Christian Wilkins Justin Metabike are those guys, then you do it and you figure out the rest afterwards.

from the past misses on the offensive line? When we're picking eighteen and if there's a guy there, and to me, this class really helps you get over the hangover by providing everything you need in one cocktail with all of these guys. I mean, most of these guys have great size, great length, great mass to them. Three hundred and thirty

to three hundred and forty five pounds. For some of these guys like J. C. Latham and Tellyfuaga out of Oregon State, and if they test well, because they think That's the other part that when the Bengals have missed in the draft, it's been guys that either haven't tested at some point and all the data says that this is very predictive for offensive lineman. You have to be a great athlete because you're blocking the Chris Jones, you're

blocking the TJ. Watt and Miles Garrett. These guys are freaks. You need freak offensive linemen. So when they've drafted Billy Price, Cedric o'boy he, Jackson Carmen, none of them tested before the Combine, you can say, yeah, rely on the tape and see if they're athletes. But the tape lies. It lies to everyone. It's why teams miss, It's why we all miss on evaluating talent and players use the data

to help you. There should be a guy that tests well enough at that at that pick at eighteen, that has the size and length that would be something Jonah Williams never really had and I think that's what he struggled with the most. So yes, if you can, I believe the way to get the best offensive lineman, and it's not just a personal belief. It's proven. You have to draft these guys in the first round. It's where

they come from. They go in the top twenty. If you're sitting there and a guy's there that you believe is a starting tackle in this league, it take them because you can't find them elsewhere unless you're going to overpay in free agency. Because even how I describe Joana Williams, there's projections. I say he's gonna get fifteen million dollars in free agency. I mean think about that. That's average

play fifteen million. It's a huge chunk. And I don't think the Bengals can swallow that right now with the way they're built. So it aligns with drafting one in the first round.

good size, three thirty plus. I mean more than that probably now, but whenever you see that height, teams like to kick those guys inside. And I think he's played better as a guard as well. He's actually taking more snaps that guard than he has tackle in the NFL. So I could see teams just saying, now he's a guard, not really a tackle. But if he is, and if he is for your team, I think he's the best

one available. I put a three on Jonah Williams. I put a three on Jermaine illuminor the right tackle from the Raiders, who will be twenty nine point eight years old on kick off a week one of the season. That makes it a little bit tough. I don't know what the Bengals like to swim in those waters of the twenty nine thirty thirty one range when they go for free agents, but offensive line is a different breed. I mean, you've got to go for these guys. You

can't get everything in free agency. I think he's a baseline level starting tackle. Do I think he's better in Jonah? Not really sure, but if I can pay him half the money, I think that's a value there. And then it comes down to the last guy to me is Trent Brown, the other tackle for the New England Patriots. Again very similar to Orlando Brown. Massive guy doesn't move as well anymore. There's been times where he hasn't been able to practice because he's dealing with different issues. He's

left to Patriots before and did not find success. You always got to be weary of that when a guy is better in one system or in one environment and can't replicate it elsewhere. So I don't know what kind of deal he's going to get, but I think he's probably the last average to above average starter that's available

in this class. So it's bleak. You may come away with a spot starter or a patch job Riley Reef type of signing and say, hey, that doesn't preclude us from drafting a guy at eighteen, even if it's Jermaine Luminor at seven and a half million dollars a year, which he's projected to get. That doesn't stop you from drafting a stud at eighteen. And maybe you say, hey, we have a battle now at right tackle or a battle at left guard, and we let that guy play it for his rookie year at that's at one of

those two spots. If he can win one and get him his experience and his feet wet as a rookie and move on, and you have the five best offensive line him to play, which isn't something they've had the luxury of doing for a while.

I think a couple of years ago people were like, this is the next Gronk, and then you see that picture at the combine You're like, yeah, he's not Gronk. I mean, Gronk's a full grown man next to him, and Owers is still young, so he can develop and fill out and he will. But he looks and he's listed at six four, two forty, which is interesting because that's definitely not Gronk at six six to sixty five, right, But he may be under six four, and he may

be two thirty five, and let's hope not. Let's hope he's he's a little bit bigger than that. But if he does, that's going to hurt some teams and how they evaluate it and say, is he worth a top ten pick? And I expect him to test really, really well, so maybe that'll balance everything out. But to me, a lot of times when I'm watching, I'm like, that's a

big slot receiver. That's Travis Kelce. That's a move type tight end, so it's not your traditional y tight end that's on the line, and I'm gonna do a lot of the dirty work. Remember they paired Darnel Washington with Brock Bowers at Georgia and that was the polar opposite in terms of size and blocking and power. And they use Darnell Washington to do that and they use brock

Bowers more as the big slot moved tight end. But in my opinion, I think if that's not good enough for the top teams, once it gets to the Bengals, that may be perfect for them because the Bengals are probably losing Tyler Boyd this offseason. They probably have t Higgins for one more year on a franchise tag. They need that third option this year that can grow into a number two option. And this is gonna come after

the free agency. So the way we started this conversation, the Bengals are probably going to sign a veteran free agent. They have how many years in a row now at tight end and maybe that's just Drew Sample and Tanner Hudson. But what you get in Brock Bowers is something that those guys can't do as expected if you're going to

spend a top pick. And I think the next question people have is are there enough targets and would they use them correctly, because we haven't really seen that too much out of time end, and we're talking replacing Tyler Boyd as a slot guy and getting some of the tight end targets. Bengals a one hundred and fifteen targets at tight end last year, they had ninety eight to

Tyler Boyd. So let's just say two hundred, and let's say andre Yosubash and Charlie Jones are going to elevate in year two and get a chunk of that, so maybe sixty targets go to them. We're still at one forty and say we still want to give some to Sample and Tanner Hudson. I think we can easily get to ninety targets left for brock Bowers as the number three option, very similar to where Boyd was the last few years. And I think that's completely worth it. And

what he could develop into is maybe your number two guy. Yes, I'm for it. And I think that's the scenario where you set you kind of hinted to it earlier, where it's you know what, we think this is the best upside guy. We think this is the difference maker. Yes, we know we need this, this and that, but this guy in a couple of years or even in a year, may be the difference maker on offense that helps us survive losing some of these receivers.

Bengals don't even have that role. If they bring back Drew Sample, that's your Twoerned sixty pounds y blocker that can get on the line. But when they wanted to go to Wilcox and Tanner Hudson in twelve personnel and use those guys as the flex tight end and get them blocking, they neither were good enough in my opinion, And I think Flowers would be an extreme upgrade even as a blocker in that role. And then you hint it to it, I wanted to make sure we get it.

Yet his run after the catch was what makes him the best tight end prospect in a long time, because his numbers there are ninety ninth ninety eighth percentile across the board for after the catch and making guys miss, and the Bengals don't have one of those guys either, other than Jamar Chase. It seems like the only guy that can give screens to and run the RPOs too and give them the jet sweeps, it's Chase. It's hard to continue to do that because defenses seems so hyper

focused on it. Bowers gives you another guy to give you a little bit after the catch.

the band together as best as possible. That means if they have to tag him because we don't expect an extension to happen for whatever reason, right, I think it's guaranteed money and and the Bengals don't typically swim in those waters and go too deep in them, so I think that'll probably be the impass where a deal doesn't get done, because the best option would be getting a deal done and lowering that cap hit from the what is going to be the franchise tag just under twenty

two million dollars and lowering it to ten million even if you can, and a lot of teams would that are going to extend T. Jiggins they want, they would push off those big capts the future years. It would provide you some relief. That could be the difference between signing a starting defensive tackle or not. So the most flexibility would be to extend him. But then you get into a few years where it's should we pay thirty

five percent of our cap to three players? Meaning Joe Burrow, Jamar Chase and T Higgins When the Bengals went to the Super Bowl. Those guys were cheap, right, It's not really I even said run it back with these three, But is it running it back when those guys cost four times as much? Not really, because now you need to fill in. You need to have another Burrow, Chase

and Higgins on rookie deals at other positions. So you need to nail or hope that Dax Hill and Miles Murphy and maybe it's brock Hoers this year Johnny Newton. Are those impact players for cheap and that's what gets you back over the hump and replaces the value that you're losing by extending the Burrow, the Chase and the Higgins.

What you have to do and you want to do, and you hate when you see these guys walk after four or five years, the Jesse Bates or even I mean, I'm watching a free agent talk and Kevin Zeitler is still playing and still playing at a high level, and it still burns that you couldn't find a way to keep a guy that should have been a ten year player for you. And let's fill in the rest, keep your good players, fill in the rest, figure it out. Draft well, because you have to draft well anyway once

you start. I mean you have to draft well no matter what your what spot on the timeline you're on. But once you pay that quarterback big money, it is the single most important thing you can do for your franchise is to draft and find cheap talent. And I don't think the Chiefs, even without the draft class they had a couple of years ago, get back to the Super Bowl and win it two years in a row without those classes, and it just shows you how important

it is. So you know, I'm down for whatever it is, whether that's tagging trade get more picks, which I don't think is a realistic option either. I just don't think teams will value or match the value the Bengals half for Tea. I think the Bengals love t and see them as a true wide receiver, one which would demand a first round pick and a strong wide receiver class. I don't see that ever matching up and happening. But yes,

I think that they're either option. There are hurdles to it, and you've got to get creative with the rest of your cap space.

He has a roster bonus of three million and twenty eight dollars a few days after the league year starts, and that'll probably be our indicator if they in the right away in the tampering period, and then those three days if they are talking the running backs, free agent running backs, if they sign a free agent running back, well then the writing is on the wall and they don't want to pay that three million because if you do pay that signing bonus or that roster bonus of

three million, it pretty much locks him on the roster. You're not gonna pay a guy that and then cut him two three months later. It doesn't make any sense. Teams don't do that, so they make those decisions at that point. And so I don't think, well, I think it could happen because of that. I don't think the savings is as big as some people that really want

to cut Joe Mixon. You get five and a half million, but are you gonna spend three and a half on a Devin Singletary or whoever it may be, insert any running back. Then you're really only saving two million. Is it worth it? I mean, you got a guy that is consistent that the locker room loves. That is a power runner that you don't have on the roster right now that if you need it to give it to him thirty times, he can handle it. And also he

never fumbles. So there are traits that I want in the next running back or with Joe Mixon, I want a guy like that in the backfield. I just wonder if you can find that production from an AJ Dillon right that's two hundred and twenty five, two hundred and thirty pounds with thighs like tree trunks, and give them one and a half two and a half million dollars and save a lot of money. And you take that money and you put it towards the tight end, you put it towards a right tackle, or you put it

towards the defensive tackle. And is that money better spent? All of the numbers and all the advanced analytics just say running back is replaceable, and spending any money there is probably not the wisest decision.

several years in a row. Do you think that still applies or if we hit a point now in the NFL where you'll find them in the third round or fourth round, or in Isaiah Paiceko's case, the seventh round.

you're looking for more. You want the explosive runs. You want the guy that can run some routes from the backfield and be a difference maker, whether that's with his speed, with his pass catching, even past blocking. They could use

a guy that even specializes in that. And in my off season mock, I ended up taking a running back in the third round because I do think if you cut mixing even signing a low end guy and then and I took Deonta Foreman, same draft classes, mixing actually, but you know you get them for a million and a half to be your power runner beer number three runner. You turn around and draft a guy in the second or third round, and I think the Bengals would focus

on that. They value running back, they always have. They draft them, even the guys that don't work out Kenny Irons right, Chris Perry in the first round. They value running back. They see that the guy is going to touch the ball second most on offense, and they want to trust that guy to be if you have to lean on him and he has to carry you for a game or two, they want to do that. And I think this class, while it's much weaker than last year,

I think Chase Brown probably goes. He probably gets second third round talk which is where we had him graded last year anyways in our process, but he would be in the top five or six in this class. In this class is a little bit weaker, but there are good players on Day two, and I think the Bengals would prioritize it should it be.

It's been actually a great signing for them. But in a year you could potentially have three cheap players at those positions and cheap safeties, and I think that's part of the pie that you have to slice up if you're gonna go heavy at wide receiver. They had the fifth most expensive OAL lines and D lines last year. If you're gonna do that, then you have to go cheap at some positions, and they've decided to tight end safety and potentially cornered. I do think they would want

to bring in a fourth guy that can start. I don't think it's a guy that has to start. I think it's like, Okay, if Turner isn't capable of being a every play guy or an every game guy, or doesn't take a step in year two, or Cam Taylor Britt deals with injuries in year three, again, we need a guy that can step into that role. And I

think every team wants that. So I do think there is some a little bit of piece of the pie that they could slice off there and retain for that fourth guy that's a veteran, and maybe it's we're talking four million dollars a year for a Dane Jackson from Buffalo. That's what I did in the simulation, and I think that makes a lot of sense to play all three

positions and can start for you as needed. Or I do think because they've always drafted corners and always find a way to see a guy's of value at some spot. I do think there is a potential there that they draft a corner and whether that's third, fourth, fifth round that can come in and potentially be your backup guy. And because you know, I probably didn't think this way until dj Ivy in that last game got hurt, where

it was like, man, that's a bummer. You may not see that guy to the end of camp or even into the season because of how late that injury happened. But he looked like he could have been developing into that corner four. And now they've got some questions there and they're gonna have to address it, Joe.

and now we're getting a pass game coordinator. What I'm inferring from that is what they lost with Brian Callahan. They felt that he can replace it, and the Bengals break down there and there's a lot of questions always, so if Zach Taylor calls plays, what does the coordinator

actually do? Well, he's the manager of everyone that takes part in designing, building and running this offense, right, So that was Brian Callahan, But also the Bengals divvy up responsibilities within their coaches, like Troy Walters does red zone, red zone packages and concepts and make sure everyone on the offense knows what they're doing there. Dan Pitcher was doing third downs, so you know they divided up that way. We have Frank Pollack is the run game o line,

but Brian Callahan also had blitz pickups and protections. And we got a guy here that was a former quarterback in Rascotti that also coached offensive line, and I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. Now we're talking, and he's got a video when he was with the Broncos that I watched. It was protection. Six man protection, so keeping a tight end and keeping a running back in things the Bengals didn't do often with Burrow. They like to go five wide, spread it out and just say these are our five.

Let's see what the defense is doing, and let's let's pick up the blitzer, pick up the pass rush accordingly. But then when they had Browning in there, and you see the way the game is changing anyways, when the league is changing, more blockers, keeping everything condensed in trying to confuse the defense rather than make him declare who's coming and going, which Burrow seems to like. But you may want to absorb more six and seven man protections. We saw when Browning was in there, and it worked

in a lot of ways. I think that's going to be a next step for this offense. And you're coming from a Vikings offense that's heavy on play action, heavy on moving your number one ride receiver around and force feeding him targets. I think you could absorb some of that as well, so it makes a lot of sense from we need to replace what we lost in Kalahan, but also what can this guy I bring to the table to help the evolution of this offense?

so a few things here. I'd like to see speed, elusiveness at running back, but I'd like to see more speed at the receiver and tight end position as well. Can I get guys that can run after the catch? Can I run more bubble screens with other guys. Maybe that's Charlie Jones add some of that with his punt returnability. Maybe that's a brock Bowers at tight end that can do these things. But I do think they need to get more dynamic playmakers with the ball in their hands.

The Bengals Jake Browning and Joe Burrow last year were the lowest depth of target so yards per attempt in the league in terms of where the ball is being targeted. Patrick Mahomes is low there. So that's really an indication of what defenses are doing to you to really put a cap on your offense. So you have to work from underneath and get guys that can make plays after the catch. I think it's a big need for them.

But also then you bring it in and condense things and run more play actions and try to create explosive shot plays that are designed to hey, this is our time, this we're at the fifty, it's first down, it's second in short, whatever it is, let's take a shot now, let's call it, let's run it now. And they didn't end up in a lot of those scenarios where they could do it, especially when Burrow couldn't go under center.

It felt like when we got to that Arizona game and then the forty nine er game, it was like, Yeah, this is now we can see him start to do some of these things they always wanted to before we got hurt, before that calf got hurt. Those first few days of camp, all the clips were getting are look at the RPOs, look at the play action, look at Burrow moving in the pocket and extending plays and booting out,

and it was a natural progression for this offense. It's a shame we never got to see it fully happen. But I do think that is a major step for them in twenty twenty four.

twenty twenty three, say, man, they were so close. You know they in alternate universes. There's a ring somewhere on Joe Burrow's finger already, and so they're at the door. They know what they have. They got the right guy, which I think is step number one for any franchise. Do you have the quarterback? Yes, we do. Do you have the coaching staff around him and the support system around him that can get them to play at his very best and the surrounding talent at their very best?

I would say yes. Is for as much frustration as fans have with the offense and think it should score forty every game. Jamar Chase's broken records, Joe Burrow's broken records, They've broken all franchise records, They've broken NFL records. Together. They will continue to do that and exploit defenses throughout the league. And I think a lot of that isn't

just their talent. You have to give some credit to the coaches of putting them in position, and the drafting and the organization of putting talent around them, which they definitely have had. And maybe you have your poems about the offensive line, but the weapons have been some of the best in the league. But you are at a reset point and that's not a bad thing. I think that scares some fans when they say, you know, I don't want to rebuild, and because that has a bad

connotation to it. But a reset point to bring in to have that free agency where you get Hendrickson, where you get Reader, where you get a woozy a, where you get Hilton. You have that point here where they have a lot of cap space. They have tremendous cap health. You look at the rest of the league and the teams that they're competing with, and the Chiefs have to make some decisions. The Bills are forty million over the cap, right,

so like these the Ravens, same situation. These teams are not in the position you are in if you want to push it, if you want to stretch it. What the Bengals don't really do with the cap, they don't really push it in the future years. It's something that I think they can do, but they don't need to yet.

They don't have to like these other teams do. They're in a position to load up with new young players, new free agents to twenty five to twenty six year old Von Bells signings that are cheap that six million dollars a year. You find a guy like that again this offseason, and how much better do we feel about

whatever position that is that you find that guy. And I think that puts you in position to if you draft well, if you have a nice free agency man, you're loaded up again around Joe Burrow and Jamar Chase, which is really the key. And I'm ready to go forward and watch that.

Chris Jones, why let's go after Chris Jones. I go right down to tier three and I say, Okay, who's twenty five and a half years old, who's twenty six years old, who's just now entering their prime? That you can get for a third of the price or half the price Gino Stone at free safety for the Ravens, right coming off a career year, twenty five years old in projection at seven million dollars a year, boom sold.

Let me get that. Let me get a player that leads the league in interceptions, right, And that's where I want to play. And that's where I'm going to get into in the future videos, but also a lot of draft content. It's not just mock drafts. We have a whole system with guys I work with and do this with where we score in great prospects, we balance it with advanced analytics, and we let it spit it out and we don't touch it. After that, it says, hey, this guy should go in the first round, and we

say great, because it's been pretty good for us. Although we tweak it every year, it's fun to see it play out and see how it goes.

the exclusive stuff. So I put out the data or the videos or the film whatever if, and that's for everyone on Twitter. And then I'll say, okay, so what does this mean? And I'll go into the subscriber section and I'll just we'll just talk and break it down and have a conversation amongst people that are like minded and want to go a little bit deeper.

Jeremiah did a pre combined conference call with reporters this week, and here's what he said about Bowers.

does he go in the draft. And I think when you look around the league and you see most of these top tight ends that have come on Day two or even beyond that, teams are now saying, Okay, we can find that other tight end. Maybe we don't get the top guy, we can get a really really good player who might end up being the top guy without

having to pay that premium. And I also think that the Kyle Pitts thing, you know as Kyle Pitts his talent as any tight end that I've ever evaluated, and you know, it's just you're still dependent on the position of the quarterback, so depending on what you can get out of them. So that couple with the money difference, the savings you get by taking a premier position in the top ten, it's tough to place him to know how high he's going to go.

Only time will tell, but the highest selected tight end in last year's draft was Dalton Kinkaid to Buffalo, and that was with a twenty fifth overall pick. I'll be at the combine for a couple of days next week

and we'll have some great draft content to come. That's going to do it for this episode of the Bengals Booth Podcast, brought to you by Paycore, Proud to be the Bengals Official HR software provider, by Alta Fiber future proof fiber Internet designed to elevate your home, business and community to a new level, and by Kettering Health the best care for the best fans. Kettering Health is the

official healthcare provider of the Bengals. If you haven't done so already, please subscribe to this podcast and if you have a minute, give it a rating or share a comment that helps more Bengals fans find us. I'm Dan Hord, and thanks for listening to The Bengals Booth Podcast