Bengals Booth Podcast: Saints Come Marching In

NFL Films and ESPN. He's one of the very best at studying the game tape and explaining the x's and oh's without either confusing you or putting you to sleep. And then you'll hear from the analytics guy Sam Monson from Pro Football Focus, the website where they grade every player on every play. Before you hear from Greg and Sam, i'll discuss the latest Bengals news and look ahead to

Sunday's game with my broadcast partner Dave Lappam. All of that is right ahead, but first, here's a quick reminder that you can have the latest edition of this podcast delivered right to your phone, tablet, or computer by subscribing on iTunes, Stitcher, or pod Bean. It's the greatest invention since listening to the radio online or on an app.

As many of you know, I also broadcast University of Cincinnati basketball games, and following Wednesday season opener against Ohio State, I got a text message from a buddy who is currently in China on business and he wanted to let me know that he listened to the broadcast in Shanghai. I know that Bengals fans all over the world do the same thing every Sunday, and if you're one of them, leave a comment and let me know. All right, time to talk football with Dave Lapham Lap. We thought the

Bengals would get healthier after the bye week. Now comes the news that aj Green is likely to be out for a few weeks at least with a foot injury. At least it sounds that way now what it seems like this is a reoccurrence of a prior injury, potentially because it's the same foot, same type of injury, So yeah, it's interesting. Doesn't need to have surgery. That's that was just confirmed, which is good news, But you don't know

how long he's going to be out. Because I remember in that instance he had an insert put in his shoe and tried to play and couldn't do it. So he's going to be interesting how it unfolds as the as the week and weeks go along. But yeah, when you lose a guy like AJ Green, that's a that's a that's a tough tyler. Boyd started a taste a little bit what it's like to get double team. He's going to taste at every snap. Now they're going to

tilt coverage to him, Odd and Tate. Unfortunately, due to the injury to Carl lasson the ACL, he's on the IR and it opened to barrossa spot and they brought out and Tat up from the practice squad, and you know, hopefully he gets this opportunity because he's one of those guys that's open wh he's covered. You know, he's a big guy, can box people out and can make catches.

The biggest thing to do is catch to football. You know, see if he has some of a niche a role carved out in the red zone or a third down packages, whatever the case may be. So yeah, it's going to be one of those cases Dan where there's not another Aj Green. They're not going to be able to replace him with another guy. So it's one of those old sayings. Everybody do a little, nobody has to do a lot because nobody's gonna be able to do what Aj Green

does just one person. Other people across the board are gonna have to step up their game collectively to replace aj Green. The Bengals will definitely be without Carl Lawson for the rest of the year. He only had one sack in the first half of the season lap, but he was third on the team in quarterback hits behind Geno Atkins and Carlos Dunlap. How is Carl Lawson playing and who gets those snaps? I think Carl Lawson was playing well in terms of, you know, making the quarterback

get off his spot. You know, he would a lot of times he was the initial penetration guy and the quarterback had to make a move as a result of his effort to disrupt and then other guys would you know, would benefit from it. So, I mean, he's he's a definite factor in that edge rush. And there's there's no doubt that, uh that Carlsson is a huge loss. There's

no question about it that Nickel pass rush. God, it's gonna I think, play more snaps outside and not as many as as a pass rushing defensive tackle and nicol as Sam Hubbard. Sam is going to have to, uh you know, be involved, and I think I think you'll do well. You know, they got a rotation now where they're they're basically down to four defensive ends, so you know, Michael Johnson can go inside, Sam Hubbard can go inside.

Both those guys can slide inside and play nickel defensive tackle and pass rush from there, you know, you can have Jordan Willison, Carlos Dunlap on the edge. Then you can also you know, leave Billings and Atkins in there and let Hubbard and Michael Johnson take some snaps as as defensive ends as well, you know, for a rotation standpoint, so you have the versatility of Hubbard and Johnson being able to do both to swing inside and stay on

the edge. And uh but I think I think that their snaps will increase and I think Hubbards will decrease as that as that you know that Nickel defensive tackle pass rusher um and I think will it be will they give the same look that Carl Lawson gave no, you know, not not necessarily. But they both have their own skill set and I think the Bengals will will

be fine with that with that rotation. But you know, they're down to eight down to eight defensive lineman now instead of nine with Carl Lawson going on on injury reserve. They brought up out and tap and stayed with the with the eight down lineman and just have a pure rotation with four interior guys and four guys on the edge, sticking with a D line. Adolphus Washington was in for thirty five snaps in the last game. He had three tackles, including a sack. He had another quarterback hit. How his

he looked since joining his hometown team. I think he's what I thought he'd be in terms of he's pretty athletic. I mean, he's he's a guy that that he's a big body guy, but he has great lateral movement, you know, and he has a field burst. He can, he can penetrate, he can he can move well, like I said, from side to side. His lateral movement skills. The sack that he got, everybody was fooled by the hard play fake it was you know, it was It was a hard

play action run to the left away from him. He was playing the defensive tackle on the opposite side, and everybody linebackers included, everybody a bit hard and he didn't. So he saw something reds He just took it straight up the football field and as a result of that got a quarterback sack, contained and corraled the quarterback individually, and then took him to the ground. So that was

that was a really good play by him. And I think as the season goes on and he becomes more and more familiar with not only this defensive scheme and terminology and everything goes along with it, but his teammates and how guys you know. It's it's just like an offensive lineman. I remember playing when when you first started playing with a new tackle and the twists and stunts and end penetrate tackle loop or the or the reverse the tackle penetrate end loop. You have to have a

feel for what level. You know, one one tackle white set a little bit deeper than the other. One guy has longer legs, shorter arms. One guy is longer arm shortly. You just have to get a feel for the for the guy next to you, and it becomes an unspoken you know communication, and then you don't even worry about it. And you've done it so many times, you know, if you pass that off, the tackles right there to take when you're gonna take the looper. Well, same thing with

defensive lineman. You know they have to have a sense and a feel for all right, is he going to hit the gap hard? Is he gonna grab two? Is he more of a penetrator that doesn't grab two, he just grabs one. You know, there's different things that you have to work through and the only way you can

do that is by repetition and practice. Repetition is one thing, but in a game totally different ball game, you can rep it fifty times in practice and will never unfold the way to unfolds in a football game in live action with you know guys you've never gone against as

an opposition. So there's a lot to that lap. According to the website Pro Football Focus, where they grade every player on every play, the highest graded Bengal at his position is not Geno Atkins, who is tenth among interior lineman, or A. J. Green, who is seventh among wide receivers. It's rookie Jesse Bates, who ranks fourth among safeties. Does that surprise you. I'm not shocked, maybe mildly surprised that

he transitioned as quickly as he did. I think they had a lot of confidence in him because we've met him and know how intelligent he is and focused he is, and you know, he's, like we talked about Dan, he's one of these rookies that seems like a ten year guy. You know, Sam Hubbard and last year's rookie class had

willis the same type of guy. They they come in as rookies and they act like they're you know, five seven ten year pros already in terms of understanding what it is to be a pro and how to get ready mentally, physically, every way there is to do it. And I do remember with him, veteran players saying during the course of training camp, when I was asking about him how he's doing back there, saying, remember him saying

that he doesn't hesitate to ask these veterans questions. And then I asked the veterans, you know, Bates, he's pretty inquisitive him. They're like, yeah, man, you know, he asked good questions. It's not he doesn't just throw stuff out there just to like, you know, do it to maybe try to impressure. He's asking good, good questions, so we know that he's understanding the big picture. And so that that was an encouraging sign. And then the guy's a playmaker.

You know, they were they were wanting to get that injection of that type of player at the state position. They've gotten it, and it's rubbed off a little bit. And Sean Williams, both those guys three interceptions a piece, you know, amongst the league leaders, and Jesse took one back for score. That's one of the four defensive touchdowns. So they've had their issues defensively, no doubt, but he's

definitely been a bright spot. Lap This Sunday, the Bengals host in New Orleans Saints, who lost their opener forty eight to forty to Tampa Bay and have not lost since. And the guy leading the way as their thirty nine year old quarterback, Drew Brees eighteen touchdown passes, one interception, the best passer rating in the NFL at one twenty point six, and the interesting thing Dan also on third down in the fourth quarter, the two money spots for

a quarterback. He's got a rating of one twenty and both of those instances think he's second in the NFL and one categorian like third or fourth and the other. So he is big time. And the thing about he's a unicorn, you know, a six foot quarterback in today's NFL, where the prototype is the six foot five in strapping lad with the big strong cannon arm. You know, Mahomes is six three, two hundred and thirty plus pounds. Drew

Brees is a peanut compared to that guy. But he throws with such anticipation and accuracy, and he knows his offense, I mean inside out. And I remember here recently, you know, reading reading something about how even when he has a bye week or in the early stage as a training camp, he'll go out and go through all of his reads and all of his movements against air, just to get his entire workout in. And people are like, you know, hey, why don't you go home? We have a week off,

And that's just he gets in that mode. Nobody out works Drew Brees, and that's he's a great example of there are no shortcuts, and you know, hard work pays off, and for him to do what he's done, and this stat is interesting one of the week for me. You know, I saw it a while back where he's thrown for forty three hundred yards in war twelve straight seasons. John Elway never did it once in Elway's sixteen year career in the Hall of Fame. Breeze a model of consistency.

Forty three hundred plus yards twelve straight years after ripping up a labor. I mean, you know, he first pick in the second round to the Chargers. They went LT and Drew Brees. LT's in the Hall of Fame. Drew Brees is gonna be I mean, Chargers had a hell of a draft. Unfortunately for Breezy, rips his labor them up and it was Miami or New Orleans. Saban was the head coach at Miami. Decided to go to New Orleans. A Saban gun him. He would have won a bunch of Super Bowls in Miami and not even gone to

the college ranks, went all the national championships. He would have been right down in Miami winning them all. Like Don Shula. Did we know how good The Saints offense is number two in the NFL and scoring at about thirty five points a game. One point below Kansas City. But what about the Saints defense. Well, they've they've got some players. I mean, Cameron Jordan is a good defensive end, a consistent pass rush or a multiple Pro Bowl guy. On the back end, they have Lattimore, you know, a

shutdown corner player. But they've had their issues. I mean, they're they're towards the bottom of the standings in a lot of categories, and an area that they struggle in is red zone defense. They're they're giving up a lot of touchdowns. They're touchdown percentages well into the sixty percent, about twenty seventh in the league as I recall. So they're struggling there and I think that's going to be

a big key in this football game. The Bengals and number one in the NFL and red zone touchdown percentage, the Saints are right up there, third or fourth themselves. Both defenses are struggling in that area. So who's going to get seven? Who's going to be held to three? I think the defense that rises up in the condensed field and holds it to field goal opportunities. And if that can happen more than once, you know, all of a sudden, you're trading in seven for three and you're

down to score. You know, it's fourteen to six. So I think that's going to be a big, big factor who plays the best red zone defense because I think both offenses are probably going to be able to move the football between the twenties and then who's going to batten down the hatches. And the thing about you know, Drew Brees, we've talked about earlier. He's got one interception and they didn't return it for any yards, so he hasn't heard his football team a lick. You know, They've

they've fumbled it a little bit. They've put it on the ground eleven times, they've lost seven of them. But I mean, Drew Brees will not turn the football over. So Andy's gonna have to be good in that area. And the Bengals have only lost one fumbled themselves all year,

so they're tied for first in that category. So it is going to be a football game decided by who takes care of the football and who scores in the red zone because I think both defenses have had their issues in terms of given up yards and that could continue. When people discuss the NFL's best head coach is Bill Belichick obviously tops the list. You're probably going to hear the name Andy Reid, maybe the young gun Sean McVeigh the Rams. Seems to me Sean Payton doesn't generally get

that kind of acclamation. How high should he be on the list? I think pretty high. And the reason I'm based out on a lot of things, but one of the biggest things is Mike Zimmer's respect for him. And I respect the hell out of Zimmer as a defensive coach and as a coach in general. I think he knows good coaches and he has nothing but high praise

for Sean Payton. You know, they worked together with Bill Parcels down in Dallas, and and Sean Payton is from that Bill Parcels coaching tree as his Zimmer And I think that I met Sean Payton the first time I met him was at Miami of Ohio. He was on the coaching staff when my son was playing football up there. And every time I see Sean Payton, I my son Dave. We were at a Super Bowl together and we're walking

around at media day and there Sean Payton. He comes up and says, hello, my son almost dropped his teeth you know that Sean Payton would remember him and you know, come up out of a crowd and say hello to us and everything, and uh so that told me a

lot about Sean Payton. The mind that he has to have that kind of memory, I think is pretty pretty extraordinary in the people's skill stuff, but I think he is an unbelievably skilled coach in terms of not only handling and leading men, but in terms like Andy Reid type, his ematic. You know, the way he window dresses things, the way he puts guys in different parts of the formation, and what he's doing with Taysom Hill is amazing. This quarterback from Byu who's like two hundred and twenty five

pounds and he's using them in the wildcat. He's using the special teams. You know, he always has a little gimmick and gadget. The thing that I remember him for to is the onside kicking the Super Bowl. Gutsie come out to start the second half, try to get the possession of the football and it worked. I mean, you'd roll the dice man you can get killed forever or as if it works out, your riverboat gambler and successful

one to boot for the rest of your life. So he hit the guts to do that in the biggest stage, the biggest game of his life. And I think Dan, it's like Brady and Belichick. You know, in this league in this era, head coach, quarterback or a king. Now you have Andy Reid and you have Mahomes. Everybody's buzzing

about that. How about Drew Brees and Sean Payton. I mean that dynamic duo was about as good as there's been in the league for a long long time in terms of, you know, offensive mindset, productivity, everything that goes along with it. Those two are attached to hip and he's I think he's special. I think he's a heck of a coach. Last thing, since these two teams are in opposite conferences, they don't play each other very often.

Every four years, the Bengals take on the Saints. Back in your playing days, you faced New Orleans three times, including a game second week of the nineteen seventy five season that was the first regular season game ever played in the Superdome. What do you remember. I remember we shut him out. It was twenty one nothing and I was playing against a guy named Bob Pollard to war

number eighty two. I'd never played against the defensive lineman that war number in the eighties before, and I remember looking at him on looking at it on the celluloyd the sixteen millimeter film back in the day, and I'm like, what did this guy move from tight end to a defensive tackle and six three, two hundred and fifty ish

type guy. So he was a different type of you know, more linear type defensive tackle as opposed to Joe Green, Walter Johnson, guys that I had been playing, you know, twice a year Pittsburgh and Cleveland, those type of big behemus. He was. He was a different kind of guy, um, and I thought I matched up well against him because he was he was more of a basketball type guy, and I played basketball as well, and a lot of

his moves were predicated on that type of thing. So I really felt like I was out on a basketball court boxing this guy out, you know, but I was looking at him instead of doing it from you know, with my with my dairy air, you know, not being able to see him, just feeling that would now I could see him and move with him, and I felt like I could move decently and had had a pretty good game against him. And the other thing I remember is, uh, one of my all time favorite people, Archie Manning got

a beating. He took up pounding that day. The defense shut the Saints out, Archie got you know, yanked, and Kenny Anderson, you know, it was magnificent with his three touchdown passes. So Kenny out played Archie. But two of the not only great quarterbacks of the era, but two of the best people you're ever gonna want to meet, Archie Manning and Kenny Anderson squaring off and uh. And that I do remember though, walking out and looking up because you know, you play in the Astrodome. That's one

thing put the Superdome. You could have put the Astrodome in the Superdome multiple times. The vastness of it. I remember looking up, It's like a mouth of gape, you know, like what the heck? And when we drove up to it, I thought, this looks like a like an outer space thing came and landed in New Orleans, right in the middle of the you know, of the French Quarter. I mean, it was so different looking on the exterior, the architectural design of it and everything was strikingly different. It was

definitely a you know, a trend setter. If the if the the Astrodome is the eighth wonder of the world, this had to be higher than that because it was. It was an amazing place, the home to seven Super Bowls and five Final Fours. To me, still the best place for a big time sporting event. Fans can congregate and on Bourbon Street hang out in New Orleans. They kind of live and let live, vibe and then get together for the big game, whether it's football or basketball

under the Superdome. A couple of Hurricanes, a couple of Beignets. You know, it's it's a good living, there's no question about it. And there's not a bad seat in the place, that's for sure. And there's a lot of them. There's a lot of seats. Yeah, New Orleans. That's a tough place to beat in terms of an event like that party plus the actual event itself at doug Will Hunt down there in the South. Thanks Lap. Time to hear

from our first guest. If you love the NFL chess match between teams and coaches, you should watch Greg co Sell every weekend on the NFL Matchup Show. It's on Saturday mornings on ESPN. Two or Sunday mornings on ESPN, or you can do what I do and DVR it every week. Greg joined Dave Lapham and me on the Bengals PEP Rally Show and we started our conversation by discussing the Bengals defense, currently last in the NFL and yards allowed. After studying the tape, I asked Greg what

deficiencies stand out. I would say their linebacker position has been a problem this year, and again I don't know when. When does Nick Vigil do back or is he shortly if not right after the buy, hopefully no more than a week later they I agree with you, sir, he is the missing piece. He's the guy that can play nickel linebacker run with those tight ends and running backs.

I agree, he's the only linebacker they have that can cover, and that's a problem today's NFL if you don't have a linebacker that can cover, because every team has to play man to man at some point. Now they're not a predominant man to man defense, but still every game presents situations where you have to match up, and they really can't match up well with tight ends or backs

without Nick Vigil. I agree, you look at it it's you have a pro Pro Bowl pass rusher tackle, Pro Bowl pass rusher at end and they've got seven and six sacks. You have number one cornerbacks as cover guys. Now one of them is injured. Slot corner dark questionnaire. That's hurt him as well. Yep. But with those components, a couple of Pro Bowl pass rushers, number one picks in the back end, that's the beginnings of a pretty good defense in today's NFL. Man in that in that

intermediate area getting crushed, right, Yeah, that that's been a problem. Um. You know, it's interesting, Dave that you say that about their corners, because it's a tough question for And you know, I've been around a long time and I don't I don't rip coaches ever, because they know their players better than I do. I just think about things and you know,

try to extrapolate from what I see on tape. But you know, with the corners that they do have on the perimeter, and when de Nart is healthy, you would think that this team could play more man to man coverage and be comfortable. Obviously, they have a new coordinator this year, and it always takes a while for a new coordinator on either side to sort of feel through

their talent to best deploy them and utilize them. But the issue you face, of course, is if you can't match up to tight ends in this league, it's very difficult to play a steady diet of man coverage age. Agree you look at it, they've gotten by or not by the thing they've done well. Takeaways. They have ten interceptions, you know, and they've got four defensive touchdowns. They have thirteen takeaways, ten picks, you know, amongst the top five

in the league. That both of their safeties have three interceptions amongst the league leaders, but no interceptions at the cornerback position. Those guys that we're talking about. Do you think it's because of the soft coverage and not challenging people a little bit more? Well, first of all, I think that because of who they just played and how that game played out, that the numbers, the pure statistics

are a little misleading. I'm not saying that you know that the takeaways aren't a good number, but obviously they had four interceptions in their last game and that you know that helped. Obviously, you know, interceptions to me are an odd thing. I've talked with a lot of coaches over the years about it about you know, corners that can play the ball very well. My guess is Drake Kirkpatrick,

who I think is a very solid NFL corner. I'm not sure if he's great at the moment of truth, if that's the strength of his game is playing you know, is playing the ball with the hands to make interceptions. Although he clearly is a very good NFL corner. I think William Jackson can develop into a guy like that. You know, he's a very gifted guy. He's long, he's athletic, he can run, you know, you know. To me, their

corner position is very, very solid. And again it comes down to what Austin wants to do ultimately in terms of how much man versus how much zone. But ultimately, you know how it is, Dave. Defensive coordinators are always going to do what they think is best not to give up big explosive plays, and ultimately that's the way they think. And if and if he feels that playing more zone, which is clearly their their foundation, is the best way not to give up big explosive plays, that's

what he's going to do. And an interestingly, they gave up two massive ones in the last game a sixty yard or in a seventy two yard or rookie corner, Jesse Bates gets nosey and you know, William Jackson's playing outside technique. Yeah, Jesse's supposed to be there and he's not, and he's Sean Williams, right, And then Sean Williams bites, you know, on a sluggo and move the double move. He bites and everyone's runs by him. So it's like, man, you don't want to give up those one play drives,

you know, no, no, and they're a little stuck. I mean, I think Sean Williams is a nice player, but he's a certain kind of safety. And then everybody knows this. Again, the tape tells you this. This is you know, I'm not making a judgment here. The physical skill set and the tape tell you this. He's essentially a line of scrimmage safety or a box safety, whatever term people want to use. So you're somewhat limited in what you can

do with your safeties. Clearly, Bates came out of Wake Forest and he played deep safety there, so that's what he is. But they don't really have interchangeable safeties, which is what every team would ideally love to have great co Sell is our guest. You can and should watch him on weekends on the NFL Matchup show on ESPN. Let's turn to offense for a moment. The Bengals started the year with four tight ends, including a healthy Tyler Eiffort. Only one of those four guys played last week, c

j Uzam, and he's dealing with shore shoulder. Yeah. How much does it diminish the Bengals attack when they can't use the two and three tight end packages that are so prevalent now in the NFL. Well, if you speak to any defensive coordinator, they'll tell you that one of the main things they look at when they study offenses are the personnel packages. And if you become a little limited in personnel packages, the options in your offense become

a little limited. So I think it's it's really important. Although I do love the name Mason Shrek, I mean, you have to love that, but but you know, I think, you know, I think it limits them to some degree. I think Uzoma has played really well for them. I mean I think he's probably been somewhat of a revelation this year, and hopefully he can get back because when healthy, he's actually I think been a pretty meaningful part of

their pass game. And they do detach them from the formation, they still run with him those one by three sets where the one is he's the single receiver to the boundary, which obviously Tyler Eiffert could do as well as anybody in the league, but he's he's been snake bid with his injuries, so and Croft could do that as well. He's a pretty athletic guy, so at least Uzoma gives them that, but it does hurt what they can do

in terms of personnel variation and multiplicity. And you compound the fact that Giovanni Bernard has been absence, you have the Atlanta game, you know, and now here's a guy that not only can run a pick, can catch, he can work the middle of the field as running back out of the backfield, and you know your tight ends and Geo adds to it. It's it's a synergy. That's that's a tough one to overcome, isn't it kind of limited? Well, on the other issue too, you start to face this,

does Joe Mixon end up with too many snaps? And I loved Joe Mixon coming out and I think he's become a very very good player. But you know, ultimately you get stuck because you want to win games. So for instance, when they come back from the bye and they play New Orleans and you think, hey, there's a game we have to win at home to really show that we're serious contenders, and you end up playing Joe Mixon probably fifteen twenty more snaps than you want to

and that starts to add up over the season. How big a fan are you of Frank Pollock job he did down there in Dallas. I know he's a great personnel to work with, but I always thought that his techniques and the aggressive posture that that his lineman worked with what I envied it. And I think he's done a really good job up here at Bengals, aren't aren't you know? Blessed with tremendous personnel. They in the offensive line that is still work in progress there. Billy Price,

you know, goes down early with an injury. How do you think Trey Hopkins has played and how do you think the offensive line has played as a whole, Well, you know, I think they've been very solid and Funny you mentioned Hopkins, I remember watching him at Texas. I believe he came from and I think he was a guard there and so obviously they moved him to center, and you know, I think he's held his own and I think the old line has been pretty solid. I think they've done a nice job too to help the

old line. I mean, I remember watching the tape earlier this week, obviously that's fresh in my mind, and I thought they did a real nice job with play calling in the run game, Dave and he will really appreciate this, because it just seemed to me that that Ampa kept lining up in over fronts and they kept running weak and they kept running to the bubble and they did

a really good job with that and had excellent success. Um, you know, doing that with some runs by mixing and you know, those kinds of things can really help your O line too. That kind of play called. People don't think about that in terms of fronts and those kinds of things, but that can really that kind of play call and can help your O line. You know, it's interesting the RPOs you know that have infiltrated the national football They had a few of those in this game.

I remember, yeah, no question and yeah, and it's like people are, oh, man, the running game. You know, while you got a quarterback who has an RPO and if he feels like I might be able to get a five yard run, but I'm going to take this thirteen yard pass and he completes it, you can't really complain. But in a lot of cases, the run pass balance gets gets skewed, you know, because of all these RPOs. Very rarely now is that there's a play a player sent in and there's an RPO attachment to it, there's

a pass attachment to it. Very rarely now, it seems to me that teams aren't just calling a run to play, you know, to run the football. It's like everything's got to pass attachment to it. Have you found it to be that different in the NFL. Well, it's a great point too, because sometimes the run pass balance can become skewed and people aren't aware of why it's skewed. I mean, you know, the play I remember from this week, which was great, was in the second quarter the boy twenty

six yard reception was a really well executed RPO. And then you know they did a number of those, maybe they did three or four in the game. I can't remember. Exactly, but more and more teams are doing this, and if you get the reaction you want, it's usually from a second level defender. You're gonna throw the ball, and normally you do get the reaction you want and teams end up throwing it not handing it off. You know, when I look at Kansas City, Andy Reid has got the

prototype offense. With the prototype you know, position players and quarterback to execute it. He'll do the RPO and then you run a screen at the end of it. It's like I'm gonna quarter I might hand the back, the quarterback might run it. He might throw a slant to the backside, he might throw screens of the strong side. It's like, holy mackerel, you can defend every scranch. So

the football fields crazy. They're they're really difficult because they are really well schemed in so many ways and they have superior talent, so it's very difficult. You know, a lot of people might say, Whoa'll match up, you know, in this way, we'll take away some things schematically, but then the matchups are so difficult because they have four guys that are incredibly tough matchups in Kelsey Hill, Watkins

and Hunt. I mean, it's easy to say, well, match up, but you have to have a pretty darn good man to man defenders to feel comfortable doing that. When you have Watkins, who is the fourth pick of the draft as your fourth option, you got yourself an offense many Oh yeah, I mean that you know it's and then look. Taking nothing away from Patrick Mahomes, I mean, the guy looks at guys a dynamic throwing talent, There's no question

about that. But when I watch this offense, I am more fascinated by their scheming than just by the pure throwing of Mahomes, which, as I said, is deaf only impressive. I have a new goal in life. I want to hang out at a bar with you two guys. I'm just going to shut up and listen to you two guys talk football. It's great stuff. I love talking with coach co Sell the man. You know, I just love talking football. I mean, I sit here and study this all day long. It's nice to be able to talk

about it. That's Greg coo Sell, who is one of my favorite guests, and in case you're wondering, is the nephew of the legendary broadcaster Howard co Sell. So that's what the tape tells us about the Bengals. Now time for a data driven approach. Sam Monson is an analyst for the website Pro Football Focus, where they grade every player on every play, and as we said earlier in the podcast, rookie safety Jesse Bates is currently the highest

graded Bengal at his position. Updating the numbers, Bates currently ranks fifth among the ninety nine safeties who have seen at least one hundred defensive snaps this season. Here's Sam mon from PFF. Yeah, Jesse Bates has been fantastic this season. He's been doing things that we didn't really see coming. We didn't see this phenomenal year coming right off the bat. He's been excellent. You know, safety's typically it's a lot about the plays you don't give up more than it

is the plays you make. You know, on the back end, it's the clue is in the position name. You know, it's safety. You're the guy that's supposed to make sure that at the very minimum, they don't score on the play. You've stopped the bad plays from happening, and Bates has been doing a lot of that. He's obviously got the three intersections there as well. He's got a pass break up. The passer rating of opponents strowing into his coverage is

pretty absurd right now. It's twenty one, you know, by comparison to passer rating when Sean Williams has been targeted, there's one hundred and seventeen. So he's really been fantastic in coverage so far, and that's really helped that. Segondary, No, it's interesting with Jesse, young guy rookie took him the second round. Really liked them. Obviously, his ball skills and his ability to read things. You know, centerfielder in baseball run to a spot, the ball is going to be

there kind of thing, has those type of instincts. But as every young player will do. In this last game, for example, you had to pick six where Jamis Winston never really even saw him, you know, and he Winston locked in his receiver and Jesse Bates pick six. But then he gave up the sixty yard touchdown pass to Jackson receiver Jackson. Will Jackson's playing outside technique and Jesse's supposed to be able to the top taking will Jackson away,

and he gives up a sixty yard touchdown pass. So the young guy giveth the young guy take it the way. I guess that's kind of what you expect out of young safeties as they learn in the NFL. It is and I guess the only mitigating circumstances behind that big touchdown is that, you know, they change quarterbacks to that point on Jameis Winston had just been throwing those steam routes all day long, and then Ryan Fitzpatrick comes in

the game, and they showed them the same look. They showed them that scene that they've been targeting all day, and instead it was a different quarterback. He didn't take debate, he didn't throw it there, and he went with the double move over the top and based just bid on the thing that he'd been seeing all day long from from Jameis Winston. So yeah, I mean, it's a mental er and it's a mistake that obviously he shouldn't have made.

But I think it was smart play by the Bucks and by Ryan Fitzpatrick to kind of take advantage of something that had been actually biting them all day up until that point. Yeah, Jesse's you know, you're right though, that's his responsibility is he just ran. All he did was run a deep post. Jackson just took off a ran a deep post. The double move was Mike Evans. He ran the sluggo double move, and Sean Williams bid on that and he ran by him for a seventy

two yard touchdown. So each safety got destroyed, you know, on a deep ball, like you say, you can't as a safety. You can't let the ball get behind, you can't get over your head, and each of them were guilty of that. But the good news is Jesse Bates, you know, had to pick six to kind of negate that and make a big play at the Defensively, those

four defensive touchdowns, you know, lead the NFL. Those those big plays by the defense are a big factor in mitigating some of the some of the other problems the defenses haven't for sure. Yeah, And basically guy that was grading really well for us in college. His TFF college grades were excellent as well, So I guess it's a little bit of a surprise to see him hit the

ground running so well. A lot of rookie safeties struggle imployment, they hit the NFL, but he's really made the seamless transition. Sam Hudson from Pro Football focuses our guest. You can follow him on Twitter at p f F Underscore Sam. Bengals linebackers are struggling and pass coverage Sam, How bad is the data? Yeah? And that's it's not a new trend, right. The Bengals linebackers have struggle for a while now. It's been the issue on that defense. They've been able to

get impressive play from the guys up front. They've been able to find players in the secondary that done well over the years. It's that linebacker level where they've really been struggling. And as you say, in particular, it's coverage. This year, Nick vigil has got the best coverage grade of the group. But outside of that, the other three linebackers that have played significant snaps, Jordan Evans, Preston Brown already Nickerson, all of those guys have given up at

least one touchdown so far. They're all giving up a passer rating above eighty four. Nickerson in particular has given up a pass rating one forty five, which is pretty horrendous. They're struggling. Those guys are getting beaten. When they're getting beaten, they're giving up significant yards. They're giving up significant yards after the catch, So it's not even as if they're able to just keep everything in front of them and

limit the damage that way. Those guys are all giving up a significant amount of yards after the catch and a significant amount per reception. So that linebacker level for the Bengal continues to be a real problem in coverage. Do you think that teams need to take another look at how they how they construct their defense and that the angles an example of in today's NFL, with teams throwing the ball get pass rushers. They feel like they've got one in Geno Atkins obviously, another one in Carlos

Dunlap six and seven sacks respectively. They have number one draft picks at corner. On the back end, they have dark ques Denar in the slot a number another number one that's injured right now, but they haven't really addressed at linebacker position. With very high draft picks and the way tight ends are in today's NFL and backs out of the backfield, I guess you maybe you have to

rethink how early you addressed linebacker in drafts. Yeah, I think there's there's a bit of the league is in flux right now in terms of I correctly a assigning value to all these various different positions. You know, as long as the league keeps trending evermore towards passing and nothing else, it's shifted exactly how much he should value certain positions. So you know, a two down run stuff in linebacker used to be a valuable guy. He used

to be important in your defense. Now those guys are entirely replaced, and they're really an afterthought with everything, and even three down linebackers, they're becoming less valuable than other positions and less you can find a guy that moves the needle and can be a sort of matchup nightmare on defense, the way some of these tight ends and running backs can be on offset. So do you think of guys like Luke Keikley or Dion Jones in Atlanta. Those guys are so good that they're able to move

the needle in that direction. But if you're not that good, if you're just a reasonable every down linebacker, it's important, but it's not as important as a cornerback or even a number two or a number three quarterback. It's not as important as a pass rusher upfront, because the most important things are obviously stopping the pass and being able

to pass yourself. And the components of stopping the pass are, you know, the back end coverage against those number one receivers and the pass rush up front, the client pressure quarterbacks. Linebackers are definitely important parts of the coverage. They're you know, they're they're going to be targeted significantly over the middle against tight ends and all that kind of thing. It just still takes a back seat to those other positions.

So I think teams are struggling at the moment with this this kind of moving target of you know, how much to go after these linebackers and where to find a really good one. Do you think it will evolve to like safeties that can play in the box, and because teams like you canon with the Cardinals, he was

a hot ticket there for a while. Oh man, there's a kid, you know that is tough enough to play against the run, but he gives them a really good option playing that weak side linebacker or that second backer in their in their nickel package, and he can hold up the run but gives them excellent coverage. I mean, do you think they're they'll gravitate toward the larger safety type guy that can hold up against the running game, because then teams will just you know, bunch up and

run it down your throat if you can't. But do you think that that's the way it might go in an earlier sooner rather than later, I guess. I mean, I think they already have. It's just that those guys are termed linebackers all along that you know, you look the guy like Roquan Smith, the Bear's first round draft pick. He's six foot one, two hundred and thirty pounds. You know that's a safety. If you go back ten years,

that guy's a strong safety. But now the way the game has gone, people have gotten smaller, they've gotten faster, and those guys are just brought up as linebackers all the way along. Now there's no there's none of this position switch that you would have happened when you know, say Thomas Davis back when he came out two thousand and four, I think he went from being a college strong safety to being an NFL linebacker, and that's kind

of the same deal. I think there isn't a position switch, but I think the league has already made that adjustment, and I think they're still moving in that direction. It's not that you know, the six foot one, two hundred

and thirty pound linebacker may not be the end. We may get down to the idea of a two hundred and ten pound linebacker until you know, until there is that threat of the other end of the other shoe dropping a thread of a team that just lows up with a couple of fullback from pounds the ball down your throat. Up until that point, you can still get smaller and faster and it's not having a detrimental effect

if I give anything. The limiting factor on how small your linebackers can get is whether they're going to be able to match tight ends in the passing game, whether they can get small enough and still cover a guy that's six six and two hundred and fifty pounds, because that's what these lines, that's what these tight ends look like. So there's only smoke so small your linebackers can get before they're just too small to cover those guys. All right,

thanks to Greg co Sell and Sam Monson. And that's going to do it for this episode of the podcast. If you haven't done so already, don't forget to subscribe on iTunes, Stitcher, or pod Bean. And if you have a minute. Please give it a rating or leave a comment. Your feedback is appreciated, and five star ratings help more Bengals fans find this podcast. I'm Dan Horde and thanks for listening to the Bengals Booth podcast