Bengals Booth Podcast: Browns Thursday

line in Baltimore. I'll have a locker room conversation this week with tight End c j Uzama, and in our Know the Faux segment, we'll talk to Zack Jackson, who covers the Browns for The Athletic and is always a great guest on our Bengals radio shows. All of that is straight ahead, but first, here is a quick reminder that you can have the latest edition of this podcast delivered right to your phone, tablet, or computer by subscribing on iTunes, Stitcher, or pod Bean. It's the greatest invention

since the Turkey oven bag. So if you're listening to this podcast on Thursday morning and plan to cook a giant turkey in the oven without the bag. Run to the store right now and get one. In my experience, the meat is more moist, the turkey cooks faster, and perhaps best of all, it makes the clean up a million times easier. So enjoy the feast and the football. The Bengals have six games left, including two against the Cleveland Browns. Over the last few years, facing the Browns

men an easy victory. The Bengals have won the last seven meetings, and most of those games have been blowouts. The closest game was a thirteen point win, and the average score in those seven victories was thirty to nine. The Bengals are only favored by three at home this Sunday, and it's time to discuss the matchup and much more

with my broadcast partner Dave Lapham Lap. There are three teams in the NFL, the Saints, Rams, and Chiefs, currently averaging thirty five or more points per game, and when the Rams and Chiefs played each other on Monday Night Football this week, the final score is fifty four to fifty one. Is that where the NFL is headed? And what constitutes a good defense these days? Man, that's a great question. Damn that game was historic in so many ways. I mean, the first time a team scored fifty or

more and lost in NFL history. That tells you what the NFL is about in this era. But when you look at it, there were three defensive touchdowns. Twenty percent of the points were scored by the defense in that football game. So that's what defenses have to do in this era. The Bengals, you know, did have scored four defensive touchdowns, two and one quarter by defensive line more instrumental in the victory over the Miami Dolphins. So you not only have to take it away, you have to

take it and score. And it's because so many points are going up on the board, and you know, guy like Aaron Donald has a dominant performance with two sacks, two forced fumbles, you know, two touchdowns off of those. But and you look at it, you say, how can you say that guy was a great defensive player in

that kind of a football game. But when it's a track meet like that, if you just interrupt the momentum somehow with a defensive stop, you know, or a takeaway and then if you get a takeaway score combination, you know, that's what really is necessary. Almost in this ear of the National Football League. I mean, it used to be defensive coordinators have goals they put up on the board, and one of them with seventeen points or less, that's

winning football. That's not the number anymore. That's unrealistic. I think it's probably twenty four less lap. A lot of Bengals fans had trouble with Cincinnati throwing the ball to Cody core on fourth and three at the end of the game in Baltimore. I'll give you my opinion, then I want yours to me. If he's on the field and he's open, throwing to him, it's not a bad decision. Hit him right in the hands. He's got to catch the ball. I think the bigger question is why has

he on the field. Would you have been better off to have odd and Tate out there? That's my opinion. How about you? Yeah? I agree that Andy Dalton when he looked at the play pre snap, he saw one on one coverage. He saw his guy Corps working against Humphrey, who's a first round pick. Great corner. Humphrey held him. You have to fight through it. The ball got on top of a Corps quicker than he anticipated because he

was held me out to fight through it. I mean you could see the white and the one in his sixteen number getting stretched. He fought through it, and by the time he got to to find the ball, it was a lot closer to him than he thought, and it kind of surprised him, I think. But I don't give a damn. You gotta catch it. That's an NFL thrill. That's right on the money. You have to be an NFL player and catch that football. He didn't, and you

know he had. He had another drop this season wide open in the middle of football field that you know now it starts. Is this problematic? But my opinion, Dan, I don't care, Cody core untap you should have in that situation they had second and three, third and three, fourth and three. They started the game with Giovanni Bernard and Joe Mixon on the field because they're they're best offensive players. In that situation, you put your best offensive

players on the football field. You started the game saying mixed in Giovanni Bernard detached them using as the fire do it. Then all you need is three yards on one of those plays in in my estimation, to have one of those guys on the sideline for any of those three snaps, and they were on the sideline for all of them. I think some mistake did not get your best offensive playmakers on the field at a key time in the game. At that point, you're trying to

keep the drive alive. I can see, you know, Andy went deep. He tried to get to Zama on second down because he thought, this might be my chance to take it. I think there's Ross deep on second down. Then use Zam on third down. And he thought, you know, though, I know I'm four down, so I'm going to try to take my shot, you know, move it and work at the clock's working against a little bit. But on

fourth down, you got to get the first down. So if you go that route on second and fourth down, you got to get your backs in there, who are used to run in those type of routes. They're your two best get the ball in your best offensive playmaker's hands. And in my mind, for that football game, the way they were down, you know, no aj no Malone, whatever, those two guys should have been on the field trying to get the ball in their hands. Let's talk about

the Hugh Jackson factor. It's going to be a big story this week. How real is the huge advantage if there is one? Yeah, to me, I think, you know, you can gather a lot of information just you know, taking tape study, film study, and you can get tendencies and percentages, and you know, there's so much it information now and there's so many you know, different services that are analyzing and overanalyzing. The analytics are like off the charts,

so you can dive into all that stuff. We're Hugh I think comes a plus is he understands the mindset, the personality, the mentality of the players and the coaches. He was just with them. He just got stabbed in the back by one of them. Who's the head coach. You know, the other guy get fired. But you know Greg Williams got the head coaching job. And I think

Greg Williams is a brilliant defensive mind. But I do think Hugh, having worked with Greg Williams, will have an idea of what he's thinking and how he's thinking and things that go along with it. Greg Williams is already on record saying we're not going to change all of our calls and all of our language because of Hugh Jackson, and I agree with that. Because I've been in situations where a guy comes from in the other team and you say, hey, give me some mentel. You know, let

me let me know the calls. You can you can false call, you can handle that so well. I remember being in a game where defensive player we made a call, but it was a dummy call and we didn't do what that call dictated based on what the information was given to them by the former teammate of ours, and they were pissed. I mean, they went up to that player. So now it's like, hey, if you're going to cheat on the test, you know, you better make sure. You know,

you don't want to. Very rarely do you go in the game with the answers before the test is given, you know. So in my mind, the best thing to do is line up, read your keys, play defense, line up, read the configuration, defensively block them. Don't get over sweat away with you know, Oh, I'm trying to pick up the code. Crack the code. You know, I know the calls. Don't get hung up on that stuff. I mean, it can be a little bit of a factor, but don't get it so detailed. And so, you know, a big

a deal in that football game. But you know, I do think overall, he knows what bothers Baker Mayfield. He coached them. He knows things that could potentially bother him. You know, he knows the type of things that Greg Williams doesn't like to have to defend. I mean, those are the things you sat in meetings with the coaches, you sat in meetings with the players. You're trying to develop this young quarterback getting ready to play in the

National Football League. So yeah, that's part of it. The thing, the thing. Two things in this game though, are interesting to me, Dan and this with Baker Mayfield. It's another case of this is the first pick of the draft. Jameis Winston was the first pick of the draft. Didn't go well for Jamis Winston. Hopefully it goes as poorly Baker Mayfield. But fourteen of the sixteen games they're playing

against a first round draft pick at quarterback. Fourteen of the sixteen games everybody in the division they're playing first round picks. Baltimore had three first round picks at quarterback, two of my Heisman Trophy winners. When in NFL history is that ever happened? All three of them first round picks two Heisman's playing against another Heisman guy, Jamis Winston, Heisman guy. You know, the only two non first round picks.

Drew Brees first pick of the second round walking into the Hall of Fame, and Denver doesn't have a first round pick at quarterback, but every other game first round pick. I think that's pretty interesting. The other thing in this football game, I can't think of another game where both the head coaches are also the defensive coordinators. I mean, for different reasons. It's a little bit different twist. You know, one head coach is relieved the coordinators and interim head coach,

but he's the head coach and he's calling defenses. Marvin Lewis, let's go with his defensive coordinator. He's the head coach. He's calling defenses. I can't remember another game in NFL history where the head coaches were both calling the defenses in the same game. That's very rare. There's a couple of rare things, you know, going on in this football game. For sure. The Browns have had the number one pick in the draft each of the last two years. Baker

Mayfield this year, Myles Garrett last year. Furthermore, they had two first round picks this year and three first round picks last year. Is all of that young talent starting to show. I think it is because John Dorsey, the blue collar football guy that worked with Ron Wolf up in Green Bay, has running the show. And he was the beneficiary, the beneficiary of a lot of cap dollars and a lot of raft picks courtesy is Sashy Brown and that in company that messed the franchise up. But

I think they're on the right track. They have a guy, a football guy that is picking more wisely and soundly in terms of his draft picks. And it's going to be a matter of time. I mean, I think they're gonna be They're gonna be something to be reckoned with. I think Baker Mayfield might end up being a more mobile Drew Brees type guy. And when when you look at the game against Atlanta, he went seventeen for twenty and uh and they ran the ball you know down

the Atlanta Falcons throats with Chubb. You know another pick, third round pick, who is you know, he's a violent guy. He's a hammer. He runs the ball hard. Their offensive line, the interior of their offensive line played every snap last year. You know, their linebacker. Two of their linebackers played every snap last year. Showburt was a walk on it Wisconsin who's now first alternate to the Pro Bowl. Baker Mayfield

was a walk on at Texas Tech and Oklahoma. So they like those kind of guys that are proving themselves and are you know, team guys, And that's that's what they're trying to build with the character or the football team. I'm telling you, even going back to college days, don't let Baker Mayfield out of the pocket moving to his right. He throws on the run as well as anybody. You have to if you get him out of pocket, you have to make him go left, make him reset himself,

throw back across his body. Do not allow him to go to the right and be fluid with that on the run thrill that he has. He is coffin neils in that area. Sometimes the stats don't add up. The Browns are number two in the NFL and forcing turnovers with twenty five. Their turnover ratio is plus twelve. There are three teams other than the Browns that are plus ten or better and they're all in first place, the Rams, the Bears, and the Redskins. So why are the Cleveland

Browns three six and one. That's a great question, Dan. I mean some of it is look at who they played, Like the Bengals. They tied Pittsburgh twenty one twenty one in the opener. They lose to New Orleans only allowing twenty one points to the New Orleans Saints and lose the football game. So they played Pittsburgh, they played New Orleans, they played Baltimore beat them in overtime. We know what kind of team Baltimore is. The team the game that's

the outlier is Philip Rivers lit them up. I mean, you look at the tape of what they did, what Greg Williams did to the New Orleans Saints and Drew Brees unbelievable. You look at the tape of what he did against the LA Charges and how Philip Rivers took them apart. It just doesn't compute. It's like, what's the secret sauce? How can he be so good against Ben Roethlisberger Drew Brees and then the LA Chargers light you up.

The Tampa Bay Buccaneers beat him in over time twenty six twenty three because of the way they can throw the football. They lose to Pittsburgh on the road, they lose to Kansas City get lit up thirty seven twenty one. So in a lot of cases, it's kind of like the Bengals, if they didn't have all those takeaways, they were given up half a hundred in a lot of those games. The takeaways kept them in games against those teams that the Bengals didn't have takeaways against and got toasted.

So I think I think the takeaways made them more respectable, you know, in some games. And that's almost what happened in Baltimore. I mean, the Bengals go eight quarters against the Ravens and don't turn the ball over. They were plus one. They had they had eight or seven stoppages of drives by turnover in fourth down stops. Seven drives

the Ravens had that didn't end the kick. That's why they beat them and came close to beating them a second time because offensively and defensively on a snap by snap basis, they weren't good enough to be in that football game against the Baltimore Ravens. Turnovers, you know, and stops on fourth down really helped. So sometimes it prevents a blowout. Turnovers can say you know, it's not as bad as it could have been because you got extra possessions.

Final topic. Baker Mayfield the Cleveland browns thirtieth starting quarterback since nineteen ninety nine thirty The Bengals have had nine during the same time period. But you got to know them a little bit when you were still doing Big tw games and he was playing at Oklahoma. Yeah, and Bob Stoops gave me an assignment. I was doing a spring game, his first spring game there as a starter, and Bob Stoops said, hey, Dave, do me a favor, will you? Will you? And you're a prep here, you know.

I flew in on Friday or whatever it is Friday morning and practices and you know, interact with the players. And in the spring game Saturday, he said, can you try to find somebody that has a negative thing to say about Baker Mayfield. I don't care if it's offense, defense, or special teams. I mean I went all three phases. I went fifty year, seniors, true freshman, everything in between. Not one guy had anything negative to say about Baker Mayfield.

And that's the thing about Baker Mayfield. He's got swagger, but it's controlled swagger. You know, and he backs it up and he's got tremendous leadership, and he throws the ball straight. I mean, he is accurate. He's just accurate. You know, Drew Brees as a unicorn with his accuracy. But Mayfield, I mean, he went seventeen for twenty against Atlanta and Chubb ran the ball down their throat. I mean this the Cleveland Browns throwing that Atlanta Falcon take.

They're pretty good. Atlanta's not very good, as we know, defensively, but they handled them. And h Baker Mayfield, he's he's a leader of men, There's no question about it. Joe Mixton, Jordan Evans, those those guys that I talked about, talked to for that spring game, they love them. Then they

love him now. Baker Mayfield is president of everything in their minds, you know, and that that that speaks volumes about not only the kids tangibles, you know, with the accuracy and his football intellecting, but his intangible as his leadership and all that sort of thing. He's the real deal. I think they start they start pretty good. Their pretty good gold and we know Dan that the Bengals had him number one on their board as a quarterback because

of his accuracy. In this league, you have to throw it straight and you have to have accuracy and anticipation and put it in tight windows, not just windows, portholes, little things. And he can do that, do that. Plus he can move, He can get out of trouble. You know, Lamar Jackson in the pocket, you know, with a little quick jackhammer feat you know by in time. Baker Mayfield

can do that stuff. He has great pockets sense, pocket awareness, and if that dude gets out a pocket, you better make sure he's going to his left when he gets out to his right on the run. Gold He throws on the run going his right as accurately as well as anybody I've seen. So you can't let him do that to you. Thanks Lap. The Bengals defense is struggling to put it mildly next to last in points allowed, thank you Tampa Bay lasting yards allowed last versus the run,

next to last versus the pass. But as a result, the Bengals offensive struggles have flown under the radar. Take away a thirty seven point outburst against Tampa Bay. Again the team that's dead last in points allowed, and the Bengals have not scored more than three offensive touchdowns in a game since week or in Atlanta, the game where

Tyler Eifford got hurt. AJ Green's app since in the last two games has obviously been a big factor, and even though aj didn't practice on Wednesday, it appears likely he will be back this week. C j Uzama has been dealing with a sore shoulder but has been able to play, and I spoke to the Bengals tight end this week in the locker room with Bengals tight end c j Uzama, what's your Thanksgiving? Like? My Thanksgiving is

eating all of my grandma's food. She's come up and cooked for me the past four years and even in college that was the case. So, um, this year, are gonna go to Geo's house. Grandma, Mom and Dad are coming. Um, Mom heats up some some decent stuff, but Grandma's gonna be cooking a lot of it. I'm sure Geo's mother in law will make a little something too, But yeah, it's just Grandma's cooking all the time. Go Grandma, Oh,

go Grandma. She's she's she's the best chefinder. All right, let's talk about the Browns this week, coming off of Buy like the Ravens were last week. Is that a disadvantage at this stage of the season, Um, disadvantage for you facing a fresher team. Uh. You know, anytime you get a week off, that obviously helps you know, Nickson bruises, and that helps you for our team as well. So yeah, I mean I think you know, it gives them an

extra week to prepare for us. It gives them an extra week to heal up a little bit and obviously game playing a little a lot more um for this for this game. But I don't think I see that as a disadvantage for us. I think that you know, obviously they're going to come in and um, a little fresher maybe, but you know, we're coming off of a loss where we're off, so I think that kind of fuel fuels our fire a little more. We're trying to

see Ja Yuzama looking at their defense. They're giving up a lot of yards, but they've got twenty five takeaways, second best in the NFL. When you watch that on tape, How are they getting so many takeaways? Well, I think one of the things that we kind of discussed today was, um, they've been in quite a few overtime games and that equa to a whole another game that they played. So the yards that they're giving up, you know that you can factor that into that. You can factor in UM

that and with the takeaways as well. But you know they're flying around the ball. Um. You know, like you said, they have a lot of turnovers, they have a lot of interceptions, a lot of force bumbles, FuMB of recoveries, and I think that they're just playing to the whistle.

And you know some people kind of get laxed with the ball and UM, whether it's the quarterback and making a wrong reed, whether it's the receiver you know, late into play just um, you know, kind of giving up on a ball, or whether it's running run of thinking that he's gonna go down and doesn't. Just just things like that. So we're gonna have to make sure that we played at the whistle, play hard. UM. I mean,

they fly after the ball. That's one thing that you can tell about their defense is um, you know, all all of them players, where's a defense attack or running twenty yards down field, they're all trying to get after the ball. Last year, Jabrol Peppers, their free safety played so deep and sometimes you wouldn't even see him on the screen. Are they still doing a lot of that? Yeah, I mean, you know, they're mixing in certain certain things like that. They it's the same, you know, same concepts, um.

And obviously we're expecting them to change up, um some things because you know, we have few here and I'm sure some of the calls and some of the things that they have planned. And again that's where this extra week helps them. UM. But yeah, I mean there are certain certain players where you look back and you're like, yeah, ten, and then you see the back of you and you're like, oh, no, he's he's He's back there somewhere. So the Hugh factor

is real, I think for both teams. I mean for us, I mean, we want to win it fo you you know, Um, he was here when I was here, and I have a massive amount of respect for him, and UM, you know, I'm gonna try my best to to win this for you know, not not only the organization and for our season, but for for him. So um. And obviously you know they want to they want to beat their former coach. So I think it's I think it's it kind of holds you for for both sides, Um, both teams. Last

thing for c j Uzama. You've gone from four and one to five and five, but they're five teams in the AFC tied at five and five, fighting for that final playoff spot. What is the mindset in this room right now? Mindset is to go, I want to know this week and you know, UM, we know that we control our own destiny. We know that. UM. Personally, for me, I know that we have the opportunity to you know, go eleven and five and you have to start with this week and you have to go one to know

this week, and you can't overlook any opponent. And UM, I think the mindset is we got to come out here and we have to assert ourselves offensively. I mean I can't obviously I can't speak for the defense because I've fended a bunch of the offensive meetings, but UM, I know that we we've got to We've got to do better. We've we've got to put points on the board. The way this league is going. I mean, you guys watch the Money Night game. It's it's ridiculous how many

points can be scored at anytime. So we know that as an offense, we have to step up and and you know, we can't put our our defense in certain you know, situations, and we have to be able to move the ball on score um at will like we know we're able to. That's the bluck this week and joy Gramma's cookie. Thank you appreciate it. C J ranks fourth on the Bengals in receptions with twenty four, including a pair of touchdowns. Now time for this week's Know

the Faux segment. Zack Jackson covers the Browns for The Athletic and joined Dave Lappam and me on the Bengals Game Plan Show. I started our conversation with what seemed like an odd question, considering that the Browns only have four wins in the last three years, but after studying Cleveland's roster, I asked Zach if the Browns have a glaring weakness. I think in the secondary they're still pretty

vulnerable to the past. A lot of teams are you guys know the feeling right, But the Browns arrows pointing up and they're much better now that we know how low the bar was. You mentioned the recent history, but the roster is better, the vibe is better, and you look at the future, you see a bunch of guys twenty three to twenty five who seem to be pretty good. They're all under contract, They're going to have more good draft picks, they're going to have more salary cap space.

And if they finally have their quarterback and if Myles Garrett and denzil Ward are even close to as good as we think they can be, Yeah, and the Browns are definitely set up finally maybe for a good future. You know, it's interesting. Um, Greg Williams did a conference call whether US this morning, and I know, I know many times up there in Cleveland he's talked about, Um, he's a lifer, he's a football lifer, and he's talked about his coaching tree and it's bigger than the all outdoors.

There's not a player or a coach in the NFL he hasn't coached or played with, you know, played with or coached with. He's a funny guy that way. But you know, obviously you hear the confidence, but you hear the pride too. I mean, this guy he's all about football, isn't he. I laughed, Dave, because about five miles from my house and Akron, there's a John Heisman statue and I say he coached with Greg too. Give listen to Greg. Yeah, no, um.

He was obvious early on in the season that having this defense in a second year under Greg, they were to take a leap, and I think a lot of guys have been better than most thought. But giving him the chance to stick around has been a huge deal. And then when you know, with everything that went on, he becomes the interim coach, and guys have responded to him, so you know, I'm not sure he's a real candidate for the job, but we don't know what's going to

happen in the next six weeks. I don't know what's going to happen in the next four quarters. But Greg has in his group have outperformed just about every expectation to this point. And whoever that new coach is, I think is going to have to take a long look trying to keep Greg because guys are obviously playing for him, and they've built some guys who are fit for his system. We are talking to Zach Jackson, who covers the Browns

for the Athletic. Let's talk about Baker Mayfield. What does he do well at this stage of his career and where is he still a work in progress? Well? He's super accurate. I think the most important encouraging thing for the Browns is that Baker has been everything they advertised him to be from accuracy, charisma, Guys play for him, he does the extra work. He does all of those things, so you know, teams can take away his passing lanes because the height is an issue, and you know the

offense has changed, there's a different play caller. The receiving corps has been up and down, mostly down. They traded their running back at mid season. All of that, they've had different guys to play left tackle. So you can get to Baker by keeping him in the pocket, and he's got a long way to go, just because like anybody does, it's on their ninth start in the NFL. But I think the Browns are super encouraged because they

see the traits that they believe that he has. I mean, he's he's a rocket too, so when you let him out of the pocket, he is extremely accurate, and when he has time to see in the seal, he is not afraid to throw it to anybody or challenge anybody. He's shown that. Yeah, there's no doubt. I did a couple of his games when he's in college, and even in college when he got out of the pocket, going to his right deadly now to his left in it, you know, he's right here and a guy so left

is a little more difficult for everybody. But he is so good thrown on the run to his right, I mean as good as I've seen in terms of accuracy and velocity and all that. So you cannot let him escape to his right. But let me ask you about this big, big deal here in Cincinnati. Everybody's reacting. He was asked about you know, Hugh knows so much about the offense, kind of I'm paraphrasing here, knows so much about is that going to be an issue for the

football game on side? He said no, and he was a follow up quest He is, no, I mean no, were you there? Did you see? You know? All we see is the written word. What was his overall reaction? What did he look like? Was he being started? What was there any humor involved? Was it? What was the delivery? What was it all about? He was being baker. He is built for this, and he dictates the media interviews. So he was trying to say, stop asking me the

same question five different ways. But he was also trying to say, we have no fear and guys gravitate today. You know, I think he is the guy that when he's on your team, you love him, and when he's not on your team, you can't wait to see your team pounding. I think he's always been that way. I think the chip on his shoulder has helped carry him this far. And I you know, he just this is his makeup. I think guys have to be genuine as the challenges get bigger, and this is what he is.

He's an overcomer, He's an overachiever. So I don't know what his stealing is. I don't know what the Browns can do to put better people around him, but man, all things considered, it'd be hard to give him anything but an A for the work that he's done this far. I mean, they didn't even let him practice with the number ones in training camp. Six weeks of training camp. The only time he played with the number ones was

an emergency situation in a preseason game. And he comes in in the second quarter of a game that they're getting killed and he just does this, and then the next week they score thirty five or thirty eight. And I mean so it hasn't all been great, and it won't be for any rookie, but he has been like every challenge he's been up for, and he's had two games, two and a half games where you're like, wow, like,

this guy is already a really good quarterback. There's no doubt he has a chip on his shoulder as big as a two by four. There's no time about that. Do you think the fact that Hugh made that decision not to even let him practice with the number ones all through training camp? Do you think there was a little bit but not ill feeling, but do you think there was a little bit of come on, coach, you know what's up. What was the relationship like with Baker

and you through that? Yeah? I definitely think there was. I mean, he struggled in the spring because that's what rookies do, right. Their lives changed, the playbooks change, everything's thrown at him, and he came to camp and all of a sudden it was like, hey, Baker's looking like himself. Now, Baker's got a little swagger tune. Chance didn't come there, So you know, David, I can't speak specifically on what it was, but obviously there was Hailey versus Hugh Right,

there was Josh Gordon, there was Tyrod Baker. There was all of this going on, which had been so brown So yeah, so there were riffs, there were conflicts, but when he started playing, like I said, he looked like he had been doing forever and like he had had every opportunity. And it has continued that West of the last game was his best game, and we'll see where he goes from there. We are talking to Zack Jackson, who covers the Browns for The Athletic. You can follow

him on Twitter at Akron Jackson. I want to follow up on Hugh Jackson. How do the Browns players in general feel about Hugh. You know, people here have made a big deal that there wasn't much social media reaction when he was fired, But I don't think that he lost the locker room. I think guys respected him. I think what happened more than anything was that it just went bad and that he shouldn't have come back for

this year. And I just think John Dorsey finally said to the has one, we have eight games left and we have such a young team that we need to make this change now because these games are so important for evaluating these guys in terms of how we can compete going forward and what is best for these guys going forward. You know, there were putting day there were thirty one new players on this team from last year.

So I think a lot of guys never even knew Hugh Jackson, right, some of them been here two weeks or two months, something like that. But I just think it was time for the Browns to say, Okay, we finally are building a core. We know this isn't going to work for myriad reasons, so let's just cut it off now, get evaluations out of these guys and go forward starting a gene. Greg Williams could not been more effusive in his praise of Joe Schaulburn said, maybe the

smartest linebacker, smartest defensive player he's ever been around. He's been around a lot of players, just ask him, and he's coached a ton of guys. So I'm looking at the leader of the offense, Baker Mayfield, walk on Texas Tech, walk on Oklahoma. Joe Schulberg sounds like the leader of the defense walk on at Wisconsin. Kind of blue collar,

you know, really earning it is the Cleveland organization. Is that what they want to portray the image of It doesn't matter how these guys got here, it's why they're doing once they get here. I absolutely think so, Dave. And when you watch the Browns, whether you or a football lifer like you and Greg, it is obvious City defense is committedly different when Joe in the field and when he's not. He paid every snap and twenty one straight games before he got hurt, and they're still susceptible

to the big play. You know, some of that is greg gambling nature, but when Joe wasn't in there, they were a lot more susceptible to the big play. He just is so smart and covers so much ground and is so athletic. You know, he's only about two hundred

and twenty five pounds playing middle linebacker. I think that's today's NFL, but it allows you know, he stays away from the big guys and he covers a lot of ground in a hurry, and that makes him a really important past defender and a guy who can make up grounds when they ground when they do get fooled on a screen or something like that. All our thanks to Zach Jackson and if you love great sports writing and don't already subscribe to The Athletic, you should sign up

or put a subscription on your Christmas list. In the interest of full disclosure, I occasionally write for The Athletic, but I read it every day. It has become one of the first things I check with my morning cup of coffee. That's going to do it for this episode of the podcast. If you haven't done so already, don't forget to subscribe for free on iTunes, Stitcher, or pod Bean. And if you have a minute, please give it a rating or leave a comment. Your feedback is always appreciated

and five star ratings. How more Bengals fans find this podcast. I'm Dan Horde and thanks for listening to The Bengals Booth Podcast