Music. This is belonging a podcast that explores being alive in the age of loneliness I'm your host Becca piastrelli. A writer mother and Community tender currently living on the ancestral lands of the coast of Miwok people and present day Marin County California. In this show we explore topics like Rites of Passage cultivating meaningful community. Seasonal and cyclical living and what it means to be a good ancestor in these times.
I have thought-provoking conversations with friends teachers elders and ancestral medicine Keepers to help support you in bringing more meaning and connection to your life. I also pop in here and there to share updates and learnings from my own story because we were meant to do this together cosmically holding hands as we walk the spiral of life. You can expect to be challenged by New or Old ideas face your beliefs and what systems informed them.
Curious and brave to tell the truth about the deeper harder things and feel comforted in the knowing that you don't. Music. Hello and welcome back to belonging the podcast.
It's Becca piastrelli here coming at you on a beautiful summer day here in the northern hemisphere Coast musically and Northern California Feelin good Feelin healthy and vibrant getting sleep just feeling really grateful to myself for the care I'm giving myself and all the things I'm saying no to to create space to care for myself something I'm realizing is I'm merging with the spring and summer from my long inner winter and my diagnosis with delayed postpartum depression
is how much I as a mother as a parent struggle to give myself care when I have childcare. Because I have limited amounts of time. When I'm not like on with the kid right so there's certain amount of hours of the day when I have when we have childcare and it's. As someone who has been preaching self care for so long it is a challenge I find it to be a surprising challenge for me to choose slower-paced caring things for myself that aren't.
Sitting on a laptop or a quote getting things done rushing around running errands Crossing things off the list. And it's a real mindset shift because I am being reminded by my body and by my energy levels by basically an expanding capacity that, moving slower and taking the time to care for myself which could mean.
Working out which could mean taking a nap which could mean being in my garden taking a hike going on a walk all of these things going to like self care appointments like getting my nails painted or getting Bodywork or acupuncture all those things expand my capacity and my energy and my tolerance for discomfort and my ability to be present with my child's discomfort.
All of these things and yet it's like the list the list of things to do and I also I'm trying to really get back into work I'm here doing this podcast that requires a lot of my energy a lot of time I want to spread this course this home practice tending the flame around I'm thinking about hosting events locally here I've got ideas again and it's this interesting challenge with like oh I have time where my child is tended to that I'm paying for what's like the most
Roi like what is the most effective. Productive successful thing I can do with that time so it's an interesting mindset shift that I am in and I have I've been sharing on social media. Close I was on this panel with my friend Ashley Burnett with a bunch of fellow sort of like cyclical living seasonal traditionally quote feminine leaders business owners we were talking about like how we do where can I really shared this practice I'm in which is I only.
Set myself to accomplish three things a day this doesn't mean I accomplish three things a day. It doesn't mean I only do those three things there have been some questions about this but it's it helps me with. Managing expectations of myself and not. Going into this pattern I've been in for a very long time of like racing myself or racing the clock.
To do them basically like doing the most things in a day so I end the day feeling exhausted but like Victoria said crossing the most things off the list. And so the three things are every area of my life like when I have childcare it's like.
Is one of the things going to be Bodywork is one of the things going to be working out is one of the things going to be recording an intro for this podcast it is one of those things today and then the next thing is to go visit my friend who's about to give birth that's one of my three things and then other things come in like emptying the dishwasher this morning and feeding my child and organizing a grocery delivery like those things come in and they're like must dues right and
I say three things a day and often the third one doesn't happen but it's a way for me to adjust Center. Orcas expectations of myself and its really helping and working as I'm emerging from this long winter and coming into a place of okay I have the sap is rising I have energy and I want to use this energy like Express output this energy in a way that serves All of Me.
All parts of me turns out that is very challenging the internalization of capitalism the internalization of go-go-go growth growth growth move move move so it's a lifelong journey I'm realizing. Cecil check-in for me. I have a pretty cool episode with you today with a now friend Nicole Antoinette who I was on her podcast called. Pod where in her first season she was interviewing people about whether she should get married or not and asked me to talk about how having children.
Impacts of marriage we call it the baby Bomb it's like throwing a bomb into your partnership and seeing what happens so I will link to that episode in the show notes because I'm really proud of that and it's very honest and real and then I said can you come on my podcast because Nicole has a devotional spiritual practice of long-distance hiking by herself for like.
Weeks months and she's written some trail journals one called how to be alone that we will link to in the show notes that I read and was like floored floored by how. Much she shares and how uncomfortable I physically felt with her experience. And so I said can you please come on and talk to me about and she didn't grow up like.
Outdoorsy she grew up like a city kid and her first long distance hiking her like mid-30s, she's actually hiking right now the Appalachian Trail and she microblogs from the trail on Instagram it's at Nick and I see dot Antoinette if you just like put in the search engine. Whatever the search part of Instagram Nicole Antoinette like Marie Antoinette you'll see you'll see. What she shared from the trail and it's really powerful she's such an amazing writer.
But I was like can you talk to me about the things that come up for me around, how difficult it is to spend time with yourself in a place where you have intentionally blocked out any noise or distraction it's like how many times do we say we're with ourselves but like maybe we can't last more than 45 seconds because then we could look at our phone or we could turn on a podcast or a or a show or we could text someone or call someone you know and I'm not making those
activities wrong but how much are we not spending time with ourselves and our thoughts and our feelings. A ends and then there's a whole aspect of.
Weaving a relationship The Living World by living outside and moving your body outside which is like can be so romanticizes like the way our ancestors once live but like there's a lot of fear that comes up around water and going to the bathroom and feeding yourself and heat and cold and the limits of your body and she shares more about how she gets really real about the fears that come up.
As a woman hiking alone and the role of intuition and how doing hard things has really served her and and her trust in her body and I'm someone who I my parents took me hiking all the time and I was always so annoyed by it and now I find myself I do it off sometimes not often and I'm wondering after this conversation like why don't do it in more and what about my beliefs about my body and whatever my beliefs about.
Comfort I'm reminded of the episode telling to the show notes with Ayana Young from for the wild who talks more about she lives in more of a wild situation and like has made peace with mosquito bites and not putting. Bug repellent on her body and like. Making relations with the Wild and making relations with discomfort and the difference between like comfort and shelter it's just blowing my mind and realizing there's a lot I have a long way to go here with.
With that with my own inner wildness I love how Nicole says being more Farallon Trail. Puts her in touch with her emotions like she doesn't cry in like the default civilized world but she'll cry she'll cry hike and I asked her like about cry hiking it's just really powerful the whole thing and I am. In inquiry from this conversation it's got me thinking it's got me taking action it's got me getting outside and it's got me wondering about discomfort in a deeper way.
So with that said let's jump into this conversation I talked to Nicole right before she headed out like a week before I think she headed out on the trail the Appalachian Trail which she's hiking right now she's been on it for a month when this episode comes out and who knows if she's going to do another month or another week you'll hear about her approach to the psyche so let's dive in to this conversation with Nicole Antoinette. Music. Do you count your hikes like as this your ex number hike.
Long-distance hikes I guess let me see 2016 17 18 19 21 this will be my sixth. Okay so when did you start hiking. I started I mean I had done some day hikes and stuff beforehand but I started long distance hiking in 2016 and what made you want to start how much time do you have my all the time I be cut okay here's the context of the person asking you the questions that the people listening to the podcast know something about.
Is I don't know if I'd want to do that you know long, hiking and so I'm just like thinking about how I grew up my Suburban childhood and like my parents taking me on Hikes and me just being annoyed and wanting to be in the mall and now as an elder not an elder as an older person being like that was really cool that they did that and like why didn't I appreciate it but also I don't know if I'd want to push my body that hard and then I meet you and I start following you. And I see you post like.
On Instagram from these trails and then I read your incredible book about hiking the Arizona Trail. Which is called how to be alone and. It made me feel things and then I was like what did it make you feel back I tell me uncomfortable I mean it talks about things like.
Not having enough water in hiking when your body hurts and keep going and not sleeping for many nights and being so cold you can't feel your body and being alone and a woman in like alone as a woman in the wilderness and I'm obsessed with eating and so I'm like what are you eating and how are you eating it is your digestion okay pooping how's the pooping going and like everything dehydration and I find myself as someone who recognized that like there's a book called The Comfort crisis.
That talks about how we as a human being spend 90% of our time indoors. At least in the industrialized world and that a lot of us are used to the Comforts that are like temperature control and ergonomics and you know clothing and all these things that like our ancestors just didn't have and somehow lived you know maybe not as long as I was but lived in the wild and it was a part of their it was a part of them. So I'm like talking about that I'm right wrote a book about that and then I see you.
Living in the discomfort of being out in the wild and I'm like why don't I want to do that like you want to do that so that's what I felt. That's really interesting thank you for sharing what was your initial question why did I start why did why did you want to like okay what Drew you to it what was the siren song. Yeah so I didn't grab outdoorsy or athletic at all I grew up in big cities in Manhattan and in London and in LA.
And was just not an outdoor kid I was an indoor kid let me sit in the corner and read my books and you know eat candy and that was. My happy place I often joke that the most outdoorsy thing my parents have ever done is eat dinner on the patio of a nice restaurant under a heat lamp Maybe.
Like maybe so getting into long distance hiking and my early 30s like really came out of nowhere there wasn't like really a natural regression it's not like I was reconnecting to a thing you know when you mention that your parents took you hike it that mean that was never never never I don't really ever gone hiking ever in their lives so what happened was. About a month before I turned 26 I got sober.
And I quit drinking and started running on the same day and like I said I had never been athletic at all eh to this day don't know where that idea came from to decide that I was going to be a runner I couldn't run for two consecutive minutes at a time when I started I was like a proper proper beginner and yet something about how hard running was was all-consuming enough to help me stay sober
it was a little bit of a transfer of obsession I think for me I find it really difficult to remove a huge thing from my life without at least temporarily replacing it with something else because otherwise that like a gaping black hole that big vacuum is too much and so I really went hard on the okay I'm going to become a runner I'm going to do this other thing and
something about the fact that running didn't come easy to me really helped because it helps to hold my attention I had up until that point been someone who really only like to do things that she was naturally good at and you know I was quite a high achiever and was really praised for achievement and
outcome more than effort when I was a kid and so I think I learned really quickly that if I started something and wasn't good at it or didn't have any natural Talent at it why bother right like why not go for the things that were an easier path. Praise or validation and running was the first thing that I ever started and was terrible at and didn't quit.
And that really changed something for me it was like it sounds almost silly to say it now but it for the first time like opened up inside me a space for the both and of something can be hard and I can still do it like it can be hard and also worth it and that wasn't my experience before that so I ran really seriously for about four years I was super into it it really kind of took over my life and a little bit before my four year sober versary I
it was running a ton and physical fitness wise I was probably you know the peak of what I had ever been physically nothing was wrong but I was miserable and I was really not enjoying running and it took me a while to realize that that's because I was afraid that if I stopped running that I would start drinking again and so I realized that I was doing this activity out of almost a place of fear and out of a place of.
Not being willing to face whatever was underneath all of that right it took me almost four years to even. Honestly look at the reasons why I was drinking so much to begin with right this this again could be like a whole other conversation but so I decided to take a break from running that's what I felt like I needed to do and I thought that it was only going to be a couple of weeks and that was in 2015 and I pretty much haven't run since so it kicked off a really.
Tough but necessary time of self-exploration and introspection for me that was great and I'm glad that I did it and shout out to therapy and all of those things. And yet I found that I missed what I got from a more physical challenge.
Especially because I had never done it before I didn't have sports I never had that as a background that I felt like this linear progression of you know I start here I can only run for two minutes and then years go by and I'm running marathons like there was something so tangible about that progress and it like it was I just learned so many lessons from it and I found that I missed it and that I craved it but I didn't really want to run
and so the winter of 2015 into 2016 I was browsing around on my Kindle and Amazon did the whole if you liked this book you will probably like this book thing and that book was by my now. Friend carrot Quinn called thru-hiking will break your heart and it was her Memoir of you know being someone in their early 30s who did not grow up doing you know the kind of like family hiking backpacking thing who hates the Pacific Crest Trail and I loved it and for me it was like.
I got it was like the feeling of obsession that I had with running at the beginning was what I had when I found out what long distance hiking was and that this was a thing that people actually did there's such an. Archetype of what it is to be an outdoorsy person right like immediately especially at that time I thought you know. Big Burly white dude with a beard and flannel and I was it right that that's who goes out into the wilderness.
I'm here's this book by this like rad queer person in their early 30s and I was like okay well carry it did this hike with very little experience and didn't die so maybe I also could try this and not die and so I think it was sort of just the right idea at the right time I had recently moved to Oregon which was a lot more of an outdoorsy place than any of the big cities that I had ever lived in before and I thought okay the PCT goes through or again
maybe I'll do just that section and it was it's about a four hundred and sixty mile section and so that was my first long-distance hike was you know from the california-oregon border to the Oregon Washington border and for me I think I was just looking to recapture what I didn't have.
Any more with running and I don't know that I had a better reason than that other than that I wanted to and that kind of came back to bite me in the ass that I didn't have any deeper reasons because I went to being pretty miserable and it was a lot harder and more boring than I thought it was going to be.
Wow I love listening to you okay so yeah did you go alone for that first hike I want a loan but I mean these bigger Trails like the Appalachian Trail the Pacific Crest Trail there are other people on them especially if you go at you know some of the more popular times so I met plenty of other people out when I was out there on that first one which almost was harder.
Because I had such intense imposter syndrome and like such intense feelings of not belonging because pretty much all of the People based on when I decided to go all of the people that I was meeting, where do they were doing the full Trail right so it's 2650 miles from Mexico to Canada that's the PCT and so they had started
months and 1700 miles before we were meeting so they had their systems dialed in and they were super fit and they could like you know set their tents up with their eyes closed and I I couldn't do any of that you know I had these horrible blisters and the first day on that hike was the longest I'd ever hiked in my life so I felt like what am I doing I don't belong here so it was like I met other people and they were all so nice to me but my internal landscape
was I don't belong I don't belong I don't belong I don't belong. Oh yeah and yeah how prepared were you were you like self-taught or did you like take a course that I took I took no course I mean again the PCT is a really well Mark this isn't like a get dropped in the middle of the Wilderness like with them having a compass and hope for the best right so there's digital like GPS.
Apps and so I had those kind of things I had read some more memoirs about it I had done what felt to me to be enough research I had gotten good advice on gear from other more experienced people but no prior to that trip I had gone car camping once for one night and backpacking once for two nights all in like the three and a half weeks before I left as like a test thing so it was like
okay well I'm just going to do this and I mean but I was in my home state right so I felt like if I hate this I can come home and I did hate it but I'm stubborn and did not come home so okay so you hated it why did you hate it.
It was just so hard I fell into the Trap of thinking that social media is reality I had fired started in those the months leading up to the hike following lots of long-distance hikers right and kind of outdoor influencer people on Instagram who are of course posting their beautiful.
Mountain top photos and the highlights of it and all of that and they all just seemed like they were having so much fun and it was so beautiful and I'm sure that that was true and maybe there are some hikers out there for whom it is blissful all of the time like that's great please call me and tell me your secrets like more power to you but no one talked about. How boring it is to walk for 8 to 12 hours a day and.
I just was not prepared for spending that much time inside my own mind and I got a new phone right before I left for the trail.
And I had done all of that transfer contacts transfer all the things and I didn't check to make sure that it actually worked and so none of my music none of my podcast like I also didn't have anything to listen to so there was no Escape From Myself essentially and I. That I was going out there hoping that it was going to be more fun than it was I think there was just a pretty big gap between the fantasy of the thing and the reality of the thing. And that I just wasn't ready for it.
Okay so why'd you why'd you do another one after that that's a great question I when I finished that hike you could have taken all of my gear and set it on fire and I would've been like that's totally fine and never doing this again like I was convinced that I was never going to do it again. But what happened to me is the same thing that friends of mine who have multiple children have sediments to them where enough time goes by and you forget.
That the that you had a horrific birth situation or that the first like couple of years were really hard and you're like look at this little person who I love so much not to you know like it's I know it's an apples to oranges thing but what happened was, enough time went by that I forgot that it was the worst sort of and it's really easy to romanticize hard things after they're done right like oh my gosh I made it through that thing so I think that was part of it. But the other.
Like maybe more deeper more true answer is I felt like I didn't get what I wanted from it. That I had there was just there was something that I was looking for whether it was a better relationship with myself being able to trust myself more I just had this vision of coming back from that first hike changed which I think also gets romanticized right we go on the pilgrimage and we get to the end and then we are this wise person and that wasn't my experience really at all.
And I still wanted that and it was during a period of time in my life where I felt like. I didn't really believe in myself very much like I had always been a really independent. Person I meant you know only child and independent kid and started working and paying for myself at a relatively young age and. Somewhere along the way I feel like I lost that a little bit and really started relying a lot on what other people thought you know what did my
partner think what did my friends think what did the internet think like I was just like crowdsourcing a lot of my life not that I ever made the decision to do that I think that can kind of just like creep in and there was just a part of me that thought if I go out and do another hike maybe I will find what I'm looking for maybe I'll find you know where am I self-belief lives.
And I don't know I just felt like I didn't want to give up too soon I still felt a little bit burned by having quit running that I was like maybe I maybe I stopped too soon maybe I quit too soon and. Yeah I don't know there was more like fully formed in that but it was definitely those collection of feelings and thoughts.
So then how long after did you do your next I was the next year so My First hike was in August of 2016 and then left for the Arizona Trail on the 23rd of September of 2017 so it was a little over a year that's the one I read about that is the one. That was your second hike that was my second hike yeah wow okay so I want to talk about fear. Yeah so we'll say since that like years span you've gotten many more hikes and you it's safe to say loves love it.
Meeting between those two hikes no I'm saying it's you've done a lot of hiking since since that like that year of the two hikes or the Toads of the TSX yes and you it seems like a spiritual practice for you yeah I have turned the corner into loving it but it took me a lot longer than I thought that it was going to. Okay so before we talk about fear is like I want to know more about that so you kept to add it. Maybe stubbornly to try to feel that transformation.
Or yeah whatever it is that moment on the Mountaintop Instagram post and then what was the moment or hike or experience that. That felt like oh no this is a big part of my life and this is important and I like this. Yeah so the Arizona Trail which is what the book is about that still to this day is the most solitary thing that I have ever done as opposed to what I said about you know the PCT some of the other Trails especially then what was that like 5S years ago.
It was not as popular of a trail and most people who Hike It hike it in the spring because there's more water you know as you would imagine Arizona quite deserty quite dry not a lot of water and that is again dependent on the year but more so true in the fall and.
I didn't see anybody else out there I met two other long-distance hikers in the 800 miles that I was there one of them we kind of leapfrogged for a day and a half and another one was less than a day and the longest stretch that I went without seeing not just any other hikers but any other people was about four and a half days which maybe doesn't sound that long but
again I grew up in Manhattan I'm an extrovert I need people to listen to my nonsense and like not seeing anyone for four and a half days I mean it felt like the zombie apocalypse had happened and I was the only one left like it was, it was the most solitary experience that I've ever had there's very little cell phone service so I couldn't even really call home that much and.
That definitely I don't know that it gave me what I was looking for but it definitely gave me what I needed like my relationship with myself really started to change as a result of that hike because I was forced to become a better friend to myself I was forced to confront why I had such a hard time just spending time with myself and.
So coming back from that I wouldn't say that I loved long distance hiking yet but I definitely appreciated how much it had done for me in terms of my relationship with myself. And then I went out on another hike in 2018 that I wound up quitting halfway through which was hard you know like failing publicly at something is really hard and another turn I remember that I remember yeah I heard it yeah yeah I mean I was on trail for 1,600 miles and 87 days and I quit.
Which was the right decision for me and a large part of why that was was that I I needed to go home and get divorced right I was married at the time and we had been having some conversations before I left for that hike of
are we staying in this relationship what's going to happen and we said we'll put a pin in it while I go to the psych and it turns out that I don't know about anyone else but I couldn't put a pin in such an important conversation for that amount of time and it was it just really fucked me up I wasn't sleeping and I was really anxious and so I went up quitting my hike and going home and,
you know beginning that uncoupling process with my former spouse and I think that was a turning point for me in re-evaluating what role I want long distance hiking to have in my life because it was something that I loved and it was not something that he had any interest in even remotely at all which is totally fair it wasn't something that I had been into when we got together it was a change that I had made and it's really hard to be the partner who stays at home
while someone else goes out for a month two months three months at a time and it's something that you don't share I think that couples of course can and should have separate interests but there is something about this that's so all-consuming that I think it for at least 4S it was challenging especially when combined with some other incompatibilities and in that divorce process
I kept kind of checking myself on are you getting divorced because if I gain current and like I didn't get divorced because of long-distance hiking but I didn't not.
Either there was like something about the life that I wanted and I've been self-employed for a very long time I've built a lot of autonomy and freedom into my schedule on purpose but I kept being partnered with people who didn't have and didn't want that same thing traditional jobs corporate jobs two weeks of vacation of year right and so it was a fork in the road for me I've what is the type of life that I'm actually trying to build for myself and I felt
that long distance hiking was going to be part of it or at least I wanted to try and see if it was part of it and you know did the divorce did the uncoupling was like really ready to set my life up for okay I'm going to spend a huge chunk of the year out on trail and see what happens and then pandemic. And so obviously those trips got canceled so it's been a really interesting kind of waiting period for.
Do I actually want this as much as I thought that I wanted this is the dream still real I was able to go out and do the Colorado Trail Last Summer. Which is just shy of 500 miles so again it was like 28 days and that was the most fun I have ever had on a long-distance like it was incredible and I this is a very long answer to the question of what made me love it but what made me love it was having it taken away.
That I took for granted that I was always going to be able to go out on trailer that I was always going to be able to travel. And then with the pandemic and being at home and you know being in isolation and not traveling and not doing those things it was almost like wait. Oh I do I want this so much and I didn't realize the extent to which I wanted it until I couldn't do it and when I went out last year to do that hike it was with the most.
Gratitude and appreciation that I've ever stepped foot on trail it changed how I feel about the land how I feel about reciprocity how I feel about just so many things it felt like this unbelievable gift in this thing that I. What to do as opposed to this hard thing that I was making myself do for self development reasons so that's kind of where I've landed of like oh yeah I love this
it is still hard and there is still like a self development aspect to it I like who I am on trail Within Myself I like how I treat myself I like all of that but it was it was the aspect of having it taken away that made me realize that I wanted it. Mmm Yeah what I'm hearing you say is.
The initial experiences felt very isolating and lonely and you had to just face your feelings of self and your head and your heart and your truth and now what I'm hearing you say is there's like a. Change your relationship with the land. And what I'm what I'm maybe assuming here is that you feel less alone out there that you're aware more of like the more than living or the more than human.
I'm sorry Living World and I'd love to know more about what's changed with that for you know just speaking from someone who's had to really work towards remembering that like there is life and there is a kinship all around us and you don't just have to like go to a you know crowded space of people to feel that, absolutely I mean and to be honest it's work like yours right and books like yours that have been really helpful in helping to switch that perspective for me but I will say on a.
On a really just like basic foundational level getting more experience with long distance hiking helped because when you're in pain every step and so afraid. It's really hard to see outside of yourself or at least it was for me, and so I don't know that I could have really had that degree of appreciation because I was so miserable and it was so hard and I doubted myself so much whereas last year when I went out and what I'm experiencing now in the lead up to this you know coming hike is.
At least with this style of hiking on a developed Trail write that. I know what I'm doing I don't feel like I have imposter syndrome anymore of course there's still more to learn and there always will be but. There's more space for other feelings because. I'm not just terrified and in agony all the time why would you want to experience that level of pain.
I didn't go out there to be like I hope this is terrible right like this is not some like masochistic thing yeah the level of discomfort I mean an obviously you. Are talking specifically about that hike on the Arizona Trail right so that was still relevant fresh off your words yeah I mean I was just like why yeah I know I mean and that's really fair that's really fair.
It's a great question why so I'm definitely a type 2 fun person right the type of thing the type of fun that isn't necessarily fun in the moment but it's really fun in retrospect I love that that's huge for me so. I think a little bit I'm oriented that way but okay let me see if I can articulate this you know the why of doing hard things again it's not that.
It's not that I want to be physically in pain right like the times I've gone out on a hike and done a lot of training beforehand we're a lot more enjoyable it like there's definitely things that you can do to mitigate that to some degree but my friend Lauren says something that I think about all the time about how it's a privilege to be able to choose your suffering. So I guess I'll see that first because I think that it's really easy with things like this to glorify suffering.
Which I don't want to do so this is all chosen suffering and there is something to that of I've put myself in the situation to do a hard thing let me see if I can actually do it. That I really like I also like the hard things because of the opportunity that they give me too. Treat myself well.
To work on my relationship with myself and my conversation with myself in moments that I judge to be my own failings or my own weaknesses or my own inadequacy is I've just been so hard on myself my whole life.
And. I know that I'm not alone in that right lots lots of us have internal dialogue that is the type that we would never say to somebody else right even someone that we didn't like and for whatever reason I find that these are the situations particularly when I'm alone where I notice, how much like the situation is hard right your legs are sore you're dehydrated.
You're hiking uphill In the Heat of the day for hours like that just at a base level is hard why would I make it harder by also being an asshole to myself and I think that that realization over and over again of the ways in which, like there is the thing that is happening and then there is whatever story I'm telling myself about the thing that is happening and. That is where I have really enjoyed playing with that relationship and for whatever like.
Maybe I could work on that more you know at home like at my desk like it certainly comes up in my writing practice and another things like these aren't isolated skills but there's something about the intensity of those except those hard experiences that lets me work on my relationship with myself in a way that nothing else does and I have a history of giving my power away meaning.
I will assume that other people know more than me right whether they are more experienced or not this happened when I you know first got into self employment it happened when I first got into hiking it happens at the beginning of pretty much everything and like even deeper into the experience of this expert says I should do X this Guru says I should do this and great yes have teachers have mentors like learn from people be humble and
we have our own knowing we have our own intuition we have something going on inside of us that also is a really important part of the puzzle and. I feel like I'm so quick to abandon that but when I'm out there doing hard things on my own and there's nobody else to ask. I sort of have to be my own expert in those moments of.
Well should I keep going to the next campsite or should I stay here is this a good place to get water or do I think that I can make it to the next water source like each of these little decisions that I would very easily default into somebody giving to somebody else I like to practice doing those things for myself if that makes sense wow.
It does make sense it's a really really resonating for me and I just you know I keep thinking like what would I have done having like red blood trail Journal like what would I have done in those moments like I would have asked.
I would ask someone but you can't there's an if there's nobody to ask it puts you in earlier really interesting situation you know that I think was really useful for me and to help me rely on myself I'm also a much more positive person when I'm alone if there's no one else to complain to I don't complain like I just get on with it that I may be positive isn't the right word but I'm definitely tougher I'm definitely more resilient and those are things that I have cultivated
sort of trial by fire on trail that I have been able to take back into the rest of my life and integrate which is really it is really awesome I will say a huge part of the draw for me in long-distance I gained is that it's not easy but it is simple in a way that nothing else in my life is that like.
This is my one outfit so there's no asking myself what I want to wear today because these like a disgusting smelly clothes that I haven't washed in you know however many miles since the last town or the town before that that's what I'm wearing what I'm eating is the things that are already in my food bag right like that's that is what I have with me and so, really the goal every day is walk from point A to point B don't die.
Like that's it like walk as far as you can stop when you want to stop make sure you get to the next Water Source before you run out of water make sure you get to the next town before you totally run out of food and. I feel like the rest of my life the rest of a lot of Our Lives their kind of chaotic sometimes or frantic or.
They just don't make as much sense or there isn't as clear of an end date like there's something that I loved about you know I turn around on when I'm you know on the Ridgetop and I look and I see the mountain range behind me you know I crossed that however many days ago like there's just something so tangible about that like being able to look at the map and like I was here
and now I'm here and tomorrow I'll be here and in a month I'll be here like I love that I love the fact that it's not easy but it is very simple. Can you tell us about Tink. No sure so there is a tradition in Long Distance hiking culture where you get what's called a trail name and of course you can pick your own trail name but it's usually that other hikers give you a trail name because if something. Like silly or.
You know stupid that you did on trail and of course you can reject the trail name that people give you but my trail name is Tinker Bell or Tink for short which I'm happy to tell you the story of if you'd like yes.
So my first hike 2016 I was at REI a couple days before I left in a state of complete Panic of what have I forgotten right like I'm leaving in a few days what have I not bought that I need to have with me and it's said that you pack your fears right so whatever you're most afraid of that's what you're going to have packed too much of or like brought unnecessary gear and I was so afraid
of the wild animals like particularly bears and mountain lions that like I was just convinced that something was going to try to eat my face in the night. And I will tell you I'm still afraid of that right like it's really going to say yeah that yeah I know that when I'm sure we'll Circle back to fears but that.
I am definitely still afraid in different ways but you know I'm still afraid but might the fear that I had at that point you know I had never seen any of these animals in the wild before and I just was terrified and so the impulse purchase that I made at REI.
Was a tiny bear Bell and it's this like little bell that you're supposed to hang on your pack first of all it like is quieter than the Bellevue put around the collar of a kitten like they have bigger ones as well but this was some like tiny still I think it's only meant for people like me right who are like oh yeah I definitely need this it would have done nothing so let me just tell you back that's why I had this little bell and it was in my hip belt pocket and
my second day on trail right side can't alone for the first time and I was you know I stayed awake all night just like terrified that every sound I heard outside with something coming to get me and you know it was it was awful so I was exhausted I get up in the morning.
Pack all my stuff away and I go to start hiking and I'm hiking toward what's going to be my first water source of the day and water source that I really need to fill up at because I'm almost empty and it's going to be a while before the next one and so as I'm going it's the you know the thin strip of Trail and you know sloped on both sides up and down. And I see as I start to get there that there is a herd of cows. On the trail right and they are also enjoying this water source and.
I again I grew up in Manhattan I had never been that close to cows before and they're huge like if anyone has not been cows are enormous and so my logical brain was like this is going to be fine this cow is not a bear like it's you know but they were so many of them and they were blocking the trail and there was no way that I could go around them and I'm like
okay what if they Revolt what if they kick me what if like I just you know it's freaking out freaking out freaking out but I need to get the water I need to get by them so I take my little bell out of my pocket.
And I'm ringing the bell right excuse me excuse me excuse me for like 45 minutes trying to like make my way around the cows but not come too close to the cows that I'm going to anger the cows and the whole time I'm just ringing the bell ringing the bell ringing the bell it does nothing the cows give no facts about this this battle let me tell you.
And so you know I'm doing this on my do it you're trying to stay light on my feet trying to dance you know try to fill up the water without making them upset that I'm stealing their water it's this whole production and so that night I wound up camping with a bunch of thru-hikers a bunch of folks who had you know started down and at the Mexican border and had been on trial for
you know 1700 plus miles and I'm recounting this story and something about the bell and I guess the way that I looked when I was telling the story one of them gave me the trail named Tinkerbell I do not have that little bell anymore actually I think I might have kept it as like a little Keepsake but I do with it oh my gosh it's such a great story so yeah what what is there to be a scared of what is there to fear out there seems like a lot.
It does seem like a lot it is a lot I'm scared of all of it I mean the unknown is always scary I'm scared more so on different Trails but scared of getting lost scary on the Colorado Trail my big fear was getting stuck above Treeline and a lightning storm which you know almost happened to me I had a very close call so that was probably the most one of the most afraid I've ever been on trail was you know seeing the lightning like right over the next Ridge line
and being like I'm at 13,000 feet like there I have to get below Treeline before this happens there's literally nowhere to hide that was pretty scary is that because you would be struck.
I mean there's potential right like it's obviously not guaranteed but if you're up there and there's nothing taller than you right and like I have my metal trekking poles I have metal in my pack I see I see yeah so that was pretty scary you know so Random whether things but I would say my biggest fear is I've never hiked in Grizzly country I think that would be my biggest fear I would definitely
bring different things if that were the case I've never had with bear spray but I would there but I'm really afraid of mountain lions and.
Yeah just the like sort of unknown of animal behavior I still have a hard time sleeping on trail I'm not a great sleeper in general but every little every little sound in the night which is like it's probably a chipmunk or it's probably a deer it's almost always a deer but your brain at two in the morning when it's pitch-black you're like oh cool a minute I. So for me that's a lot of what it is I mean one of the biggest fears used to be myself.
I was afraid that I wasn't capable enough I was afraid that I wasn't tough enough that I couldn't do it and that is no longer, true and that feels incredible to be able to say that. Wow I think one of my biggest fears would be other hikers like scary people who would want to like attack me or hurt me. Yeah I mean there's certainly when it comes to other like long-distance hikers there's people that aren't my people I don't like them but I haven't you know not like okay let's be best buddies but.
I have never had a situation with another hiker where I felt unsafe. Yeah right I would say that when it comes to the other people fears for me that's like especially being completely alone this happened on the Arizona Trail we're like you know you're at a remote trail head and there's like some dude in a truck right and. He knows you're alone you know you're alone and it's not again nothing has happened but.
To move through the world as a woman is to have that you know constantly on your mind unfortunately and so yeah that definitely plays a role especially when I'm completely by myself. I just have like some rules for myself of you know I'll try not to camp closer than a mile to a Trailhead or road I'll try you know not to be visible in those types of situations something.
That I committed to myself when I left for the Arizona Trail I actually don't think that this is in the book but I promised myself that. Even if it didn't make any logical sense that I would listen to my intuition and that was something that I had never really done very much before like I'm the let's make a spreadsheet about it person and you know which is fine I love that part of myself but I'm I had traditionally been really good at talking myself out of whatever those little like
inner whisperings were if I didn't feel like they made logical Sense on the surface and I promised myself that I wouldn't do that and so there were a couple of times where.
I was already set up you know for camp for the night and something happened or some dude drove by or set where I'm just like I got that inner sense of like you need to leave you need to pack up and you need to leave right now not because anything had happened not because anyone had threatened me but I kept that commitment to myself and I have.
Now really started doing that kind of in all areas of my life that it doesn't need to make sense if this feels true to me I'm going to give myself permission to act on it and not talk myself that essentially not Gaslight myself about what feels true if I don't feel safe I'm Gonna Leave hmm.
Wow yeah can you tell us about cry hiking what would you like to know about cry hiking what I'm assuming it's when you're hiking and crying that is exactly true yes that is exactly true of anything to share about that I don't know it just really struck me when I read about it like hiking cry yeah so I am not really someone who cries. I just. That's not my go-to way of emoting that has always been the case I don't I don't really cry except when I'm on trail there is something. About.
Maybe it's the level of physical exhaustion maybe it's like the stripping away of all of the bullshit I'm sure it's a bunch of that kind of stuff together but it makes me just like a raw little nerve and. It makes me exhaust all of my previously inexhaustible thought Loops so like.
At some point you get sick of thinking about the same thing or dwelling on the same thing or being emotional about the same thing and I often wind up crying about things like that and so I have a lot of experiences of.
Crying while hiking which for people who really know me well is funny because I just don't really cry that much in my regular life but there is definitely a sort of catharsis out there I also feel like I'm willing to be Messier in all senses of the word on trail then I am off Trail there's like an inhibition and some kind of a release and it like freeze me for as much as I tried to be anti perfectionist and you know all of that stuff I do feel.
Whatever like more Farrell on trail and I think that that puts me in touch with my emotions more and like that I can express them better cool. Yeah long distance hiking A+ would recommend well I think I might be starting to be convinced rate okay like you let me know you comment will go oh my gosh yeah okay there's a part of me that wants to be like I actually we DM and text I think so I'm like how do you charge your phone because I didn't even think that you could like.
Bring a phone and headphones excellent and like when you have service you can check things Exxon I just thought you're just like tekla so I was like. And then I think things like how much food because I got you don't want it to be too heavy but like I would bring too much food because I mean snacks well and that's the type of stuff you learn for you learn from experience right like you learned the same way that you know people have different hydration needs.
You know maybe I need on a you know reasonable temperature day not super super hot let's say I need. I don't know maybe a leader every like. Five to seven miles maybe someone else needs it every two to three miles right or maybe someone can go longer there's this and that same thing like depending upon what your body is you're going to have different food needs and I have, both brought too much and too little overtime something I try so.
Hard to maintain what feels like a healthy body image relationship with my body opting out of diet culture and as we know like you know we are the fish that is the water that we swim in and I hard aspect of long-distance hiking for me is that there can be just like in the rest of the world a lot of glorification of like weight loss or body change and I really try to.
Not participate in that in any way and when I was on the Arizona Trail I wasn't eating enough partially because I couldn't carry like physically because it's such a dry Trail I had to carry so much water like I was regularly carrying 11 pounds of water plus all my food plus all my gear and I'm not a super strong person and
compare that to the Colorado Trail where there's a lot of water and I was carrying like two pounds of water at a time right and so I couldn't carry enough food and I wound up losing weight and it really messed me up like mentally when I got off that trail it really messed me up and it made me make a commitment to the best of my ability I am going to try. You know eat as much as I can and like bring bring more food than that which.
You know of course your body composition is going to change your working at age 12 hours a day that's not only not sustainable it wouldn't be healthy if that was what we were doing you know but it has really changed I bring a lot more food now than I used to.
Mmm Yeah. But you learn all that stuff by going right like and also there's so many cool resources right like other hikers are so generous with their experience if you want for the show notes I can send you a link to my gear last right yes please.
And even that that's the kind of stuff you learn over time like I do much better physically when my pack is lighter and lightweight gear is inaccessible it's incredibly expensive it's mostly not sold at like in person stores like REI it's like online you know kind of cottage industry stuff it's usually not size inclusive and this isn't true across the board and you know progress is being made but to get the gearless that I have now
took me years and years right to save up for things and make those changes but all of those types of questions that I had at the beginning of like oh my God what do you mean I have to dig a hole and poop in it and like pack the toilet paper out in my trash like that just seemed like something I could never ever do and you get used to it pretty quickly yeah you know about gear trade.
Mmm I've never used it but yeah I just sold a bunch of stuff on there's really great yeah you can get awesome used gear yeah you know used things borrow things start with what it is that you have yeah I the accessibility yeah hiking being like a like a white person's game is like a total thing in the culture and yeah and then also with sighs inclusivity I'm someone who like was sized out of REI and that really frustrated me and actually made me less physical because I,
I mean it's different now I have to order things online but yeah yeah it's it's a changing world but I'm glad you brought that up okay so my final question to you is you set a thing that I was like I need to know what that means around. The transformation that you did have around recipe feeling a difference around reciprocity and about the land and and where you're at because now it's like it's your in a devotional practice of long-distance hiking solo hiking and so yeah how do you feel about.
Yourself in the world now I don't know that I have a very Sound by the answer to this because it's a very work-in-progress sure. I feel a lot more like a small part of a much bigger more complicated thing than. I think we all have main character syndrome to a degree but you know when I first started long-distance hiking it was all the focus was like on me and my experience and like the trails or the landscape. It was sort of just like the backdrop to this thing that I was going through and.
That has really changed in a way that feels useful and beautiful and for me it's about. Trying to move lightly through the spaces paying attention to what it is that's around me trying to learn like okay what is the name of this flower right like let me take a picture of this flower and look it up when I have service just things that I really would have done before I would have been like cool pretty flower next like actually trying to do that it's changed.
Yeah I think when I first started hiking I didn't have as much. Of an appreciation for the fact that all of these trails are on Stolen land. And what does it mean to have these huge Adventures on them and. You know practically speaking for me that has meant you know including the part of my hiking budget is getting redistributed.
To the folks whose land that it is when I'm in the you know financial position to be able to do that but that's not something that I prioritized when I first started hiking and it is something that I prioritize now even if that means I'm hiking less because I'm taking more time to save up more money it's not that kind of your an event can you just tell us some people have little blocks here that I think are important like you look up. The tribal affiliation yeah find a guy Nation button.
A starting point for me is what's that website native land a I think yeah that's usually where I'll start and then that will take me to other websites and other websites and not all of them have you know donate or financial contribution buttons but some of them do a lot of them do or they have like a Community Fund that you can give to so you know I'm going out on the Appalachian Trail which from my research runs through at least 22 native territories right so it's doing that learning
and making those payments you know we're not talking about huge sums of money that's I don't have access to huge sums of money but I'm just trying to think about what is reciprocity mean in lots of ways and some of them being emotional and you know some of the things that you beautifully talked about in your book and then some of them being more tangible of okay well I can spend this money on this 10th I also then we'll be spending money you know.
Every Distributing money so that's part of it but it's I mean it's a beautiful question and it's something that I am continuing to think about. Hmm and then how has this practice this hiking practice informed your work. Mmm well. I'm a writer and I have Micro blogged every day of every hikes that I have done on Instagram I have a practice of archiving all of my Instagram once a year so those things aren't still up and available for folks but.
I love the combination of Adventure and writing together there's I feel like it's some of my clearest best writing and also that it. Like I understand myself through writing I understand like that's how I process and so doing that in real time like wall hiking it makes whatever the lessons that I'm learning sink in so much more deeply I think than it would if I weren't doing that so it's definitely informed that aspect of my work because I write about it a lot.
And I also think that in a maybe like a bigger picture or more met away. We are the common denominators in every aspect of our lives so it's really impossible to learn something in one Arena of your life and. To some degree not have it carry over elsewhere that you know in terms of learning to trust my intuition and not give all of my power away and you know.
Be resilient and embody the fact that something can be hard or scary and I can still do it that all comes up in work as well right whether it's like the vulnerability of you know.
The day you launch the sales page for the course that you created right or any of these things maybe it doesn't feel the same as the vulnerability of like oh goddamn it might get struck by lightning but the like core of it is the same it's just a different degree of intensity and so I think that remembering I'm able in my work to remind myself of what I know to be true on trail and that as much as the having
a trail name right like being Tink like that does give me sort of an alter ego of sorts that like pink is a lot tougher than Nicole is and they're both me right so like while it can be useful to be like I am putting on my trail identity because maybe Nicole can't do this but like Tink definitely can like that's useful but also I need to remember that. The person who out Heights at lightning storm can also do other scary things mmm beautiful.
Wow well thank you so much for helping out and talking about this this aspect of your life. As someone who's like watching and being like what wow like obviously there's a magnetism there that I'm going to pay attention to, in my own life. Let's tell the people about the things that you do you have a really awesome podcast thank that you have been a guest on yeah that I shared. Far and wide because I was really proud of that conversation I had with you particularly about.
The baby Bomb having getting married and then having a kid and then I'm also a patron of yours and have been for several years and you have a. Extremely rad patreon like like I like how you're doing it so I'm if you want to share about those or anything else including your writing
wild letters anything you want to share let's let's tell the people tell the people I have a really quirky all over the place business model that is impossible to sum up into an elevator pitch and that is on purpose and exactly the way that I like it.
But all of the work that I do does sort of circle around I think the themes of self-exploration and honest conversations you know both that we're having with each other and that we're having with ourselves honestly if people are into any aspect of that.
Nicole internet.com you can kind of learn about all the things I feel like it would take us another 20 minutes you have to be like and there's this project and there's this project but I have a podcast I have a it's called the pop-up pod because it functions like a pop-up shop or a pop-up restaurant where it's there sometimes and gone sometimes and right now it's gone and it will come back later in the year but you can listen to the the first season you can listen to the first season.
And all of my projects are built in some kind of like a cyclical seasonal model I'm a huge fan of rest and taking breaks and not being part of the like constant never-ending content churn and so you know I put projects on pause for a while and then they come back but they all live on my website
so that that is a good place I don't know when you're going to release this but I am going to be microblogging from the 80 on Instagram so that'll be like the main public thing that I'm doing for the next few months is trail riding.
Oh great yeah this is coming out at the end of May so okay yeah so I'm starting in early May on the trail how long are you going to be out there that's a great question and I don't have the time to do the whole Trail it's like almost 2200 miles but I do have a good chunk of time pretty much off so I'm just going to go down and I'm going to walk until I don't want to walk anymore maybe a month maybe two months
I'm really not physically fit I will tell you that for trail I had just like some mental health challenges over the winter and every time I thought I'm going to start training and like getting fit for things I in fact didn't do that and so I only made this decision to go a couple weeks ago and so there will be like an easing in process for sure but this is the most sort of like spontaneous YOLO hike that I've ever done I don't have a
plan I don't have my typically detailed spreadsheet I don't know how long I'm going to be out there I don't know how far I'm going to go but I'm just going to start and I'm going to see how I feel and what I don't want to do it anymore I'm going to come home. What a life well well I'll be thinking of you out there thank you and you think excited to hear.
All the lessons and everything that you so beautifully share in such a relatable and important ways so thank you for being here on the longing thanks friend. And yeah everyone show notes Here will be lots that will be hiking hiking guides and links to things to find out more about Nicole and follow her and all the things so you don't just have to read Wild it's also a great book but yeah great book but yeah thank you so much for joining me.
In a time when our attention is being pulled in so many different directions it means a lot that you took time out of your day to spend it with me and in these important conversations. For show notes and links and more information about my guests you can head to belonging podcast.com and if you'd like to hear more from me and get access to my free newsletter called slow and seasonal. You can head to Becca piastrelli.com / subscribe.