Hey, everyone. Welcome to Being Well. I'm Forrest Hansen. If you're new today, thanks for listening. And if you've listened before, welcome back. If we're interested in being a little happier... a little healthier, and getting more out of life, there are few qualities that are more useful to us than self-awareness. Self-awareness helps us identify our strengths and vulnerabilities and understand our emotions. And because of this, in many ways, it's the key to self-improvement.
But self-awareness can come with challenges as well. And it's not uncommon for people to feel like their self-awareness is actually getting in the way of their ability to grow and change in the ways they want to. Being aware of what's going on inside of us is great, but when it's not... that awareness can turn into overwhelm, anxiety, confusion, and overall self-consciousness.
Today we're going to be talking about what we can do if we feel like we're too self-aware, and particularly if we feel like that's getting in the way of our ability to grow. To help us do that, I'm joined as usual by clinical psychologist Dr. Rick Hansen. So Dad, how are you doing today? I'm good. I have a mild cold. My voice is a little strange, and I'm aware of that, and I'm aware of my efforts to manage it.
That helps me be aware of your kindness for me because our awareness of ourselves can help increase our awareness of other people. And all of that said, I think this is a really brilliant topic. And in the whole self-improvement space in which I've been for 50 years, I've never heard anyone explore this. So I'm thoroughly psyched. Did you have a lot of experience inside of your practice or maybe just talking to people who have said something along the lines of,
I just feel like I have too much self-awareness. And whenever I go in to work with a therapist, I can write a dissertation on what's wrong with me. But that actually, if anything, seems to get in the way of my ability to do anything about it. I've definitely encountered several versions of that. One is the version that you started with of a person who...
is aware of, let's say, their anxieties and they're aware of various beliefs they have that they know rationally are not good for them, but they can't change them. And the awareness... of certain qualities in themselves that they consider to be problematic, coupled with an incapacity to grow related to them, that feels very afflictive and it's disheartening. That's one reason why I think many people bail out of therapy. I don't mean bail out in a critical sense. Understandably, they go, eh.
I'm learning more about my problems, but I'm not solving them and I just feel worse. So see you later, doc. And I understand that. That makes a lot of sense. Then there's the second category. of people who become suddenly aware of thoughts, feelings, memories, trauma, that they're really not prepared to integrate or process. They're overwhelmed by it. So there's self-awareness, but it's burdensome. It's overwhelming. So I think about that. And then last, there is the occasional process.
in which a person becomes more aware of a powerful subterranean force that's always been there in their mind, but because it was subterranean. kept in the shadows, it didn't have much power. But the process of becoming aware of it can suck people into it. And that can be kind of a problem.
I guess, and the last thing I would just say is that there's also the case where people are aware of these different forces or voices or sub-personalities inside themselves pulling in opposite directions, and they can't resolve the conflict. Well, I think we're really on the same page here, Dad, because when I was starting my prep for this episode, and just to acknowledge it, if you search on YouTube or something like that for I'm Too Self-Aware, you will bump into a ton of videos on this topic.
When I was kind of doing some digging on this, I ran into three potential ways that self-awareness could cause some problems for people, much like you named in your introduction there. The first is that it brings that deeper awareness, like you were saying, of just the stuff that's going on inside of us, including stuff we don't really want to look at. Unpleasant thoughts and feelings, things that…
can bring up a lot of shame when we start thinking about them in particular, ways that we have to maybe acknowledge some traits of ourselves that we don't like as much, all of that stuff. Then the second category is how self-awareness can really connect with ruminatory processes that we've talked about a lot on the podcast that often just end up
feeling pretty bad for people. You can really get trapped into cycles of rumination. And there's a lot of really interesting research on how ruminating or excessive self-reflection in general doesn't actually tend to make people more self-aware, which is maybe something that will
talk about a little bit more throughout this conversation. How much are we actually getting out of that introspection that we're doing? And then third, that last thing that you named there, Dad, which is what I really want to focus on a lot during this episode, how self-awareness can make us more conscious of what I'll call internal fragmentation. And this is the dance of different parts using IFS language.
or layers of the psyche, you know, super ego, ego id, we talked about that during the episode on psychological defenses, and the ways in which all of those different aspects are kind of butting into each other. And I think for people who get to a certain point, in their self-improvement journey, they develop more of a granular awareness of those different bits and pieces. And they start to kind of ask themselves, well, who chooses? Who's the decider here?
And which of these voices should I be listening to, really? Which of them are authentic? Which of them are inauthentic? Wait, they're all kind of authentic, so what should I do? And that process can be really paralyzing for people. You make me think about... the so-called four stages of growth. Classic example, I can speak for myself, come home from work, busy day, stressed.
cranked up, come into the house. Kids are messy. They're yelling at each other. So you suddenly, you know, get frustrated and growl at them. You're not even aware that you're doing it. You don't even know why you're doing it. And you don't understand why everybody's staring at you afterward. You know, like, what? What did I do? Okay, that's stage one. You're doing it. You're not aware that you're doing it. You can't help doing it.
Stage two, your partner talks to you and says, hey, do you understand that ABC? You know, you do this thing and you're like, oh, you feel bad about it. Oh, that's true. Oh, right. And then. The next day it happens, you get all stressed, you drive home, you walk through the front door, you remind yourself, don't do it, don't do it, but you do it anyway. You growl at everybody. That's the worst stage, second stage. You're aware of it, you don't want to do it, you can't help yourself.
Then there's the third stage where you're aware of it, you don't want to do it, but you exercise deliberate, top-down executive control and you don't do it. And then in the fourth stage, the tendency doesn't even arise. You've gone to the other side and you no longer have the habit of, you know, growling at people after you come home stressed out. Or as Peter Drucker put it, the four stages are unconscious incompetence. Conscious incompetence.
Conscious competence and then unconscious competence. So we're talking here in a lot about that second stage where there's an awareness. even a desire to be different, but we're not able to make that change yet. It's not yet. And definitely it hasn't been internalized in the fourth stage. And it's the hardest stage of all. And it's the stage at which, you know, people have some distress, as you've talked about, and they will sometimes quit.
the overall process, that if they'd stuck with it, and if it had been a skillful and effective process, would have led them through stage two, the yuck stage, the purgatory stage, you know, into the third and fourth stages of growth.
And I think that's a great overview, Dad, and I appreciate you bringing that in because it can be helpful to kind of organize what we're talking about here, which maybe has two different aspects to it. The first aspect is trying to deal with stuff that's more behavioral. more outside in which is the example that you gave you know your partner says hey you really got to stop this behavior you're just getting a lot of social input look man you keep on kind of doing this thing and
If you really want more friends, you should probably turn around on it. If you want more friends. Yeah, just bottom line simply, you know, hey, if you want people to like you a little more, maybe worry about that one a little bit more. And, you know, there are skillful and unskillful ways to give that feedback to somebody. Maybe that's a little bit.
of a more unskillful example. I liked it. Yeah, there's the second category, which is more inside out. It's less driven by external criticism or feedback and more driven by that perception of these different warring, competing. desires inside of yourself. And you're trying to move from one version of the person that you feel like you are to maybe a different version of it. You're trying to make yourself want the things that are good for you, maybe a little bit more, as we've talked about.
a good bit in past that. And so for me, the kind of psychoanalytic language is really quite helpful here because we've got this content inside of us that is complicated. These urges that are you know, less socially acceptable or they're more difficult to express in a healthy way. But there's something about them that feels authentic. There's a real feeling of being mad at somebody else or being frustrated by something or wanting to express sadness or whatever it is.
And then there's some kind of repression that's going on. And so there's this internal struggle between what I'll call authenticity on the one hand versus the desire to be really appropriate on the other. And that's it in superego right there.
When we're talking about appropriate, we're talking about superego. When we're talking about authentic self-expression, a lot of the time we're talking about it. And the dance that's done between those two parts is done by the ego. That's the part that chooses.
And I think that a huge piece of this whole thing in terms of what traps people in that second bucket that you were talking about, Dad, like conscious incompetence, is self-consciousness. It's not actually self-awareness. It's when we move from that inside-out perception of what's going on in us to more of an outside-in perception of it.
where we start to have this externalized judgmental voice that's viewing that content and offering commentary on it as if it were an external person, as if it were this person who's outside of us, right? And I think that can be… a big piece of how people get trapped in self-awareness without really doing much about it is they're not actually trapped in self-awareness at all they're trapped in self-consciousness about that self-awareness
They've gotten wrapped up in a negative story about it that's leading to a lot of negative self-reflection, lower self-worth, excessive self-criticism, all of that stuff. And so it's about dealing with that self-consciousness aspect, the judgment of the content that's been revealed by self-awareness, where I think there's a lot of opportunity here. That's very interesting. And you remind me of one of the many good phrases that have come out of psychoanalysis, I think, morbid self-preoccupation.
The self-awareness leads people to be detached from their own experience and observing it with dismay, often, rather than being... in the flow of their experience, aware of it in real time. And that's what a lot of people report who say, hey, I feel like I'm too self-aware. When you press them for what they really mean by that. They say, I feel like I've got this third-person perspective on myself where I am constantly evaluating, judging, and thinking about the behavior of...
of me, my own body that I'm now viewing from the outside as if I were another person. And so it's that self-preoccupation and very externalized sense of selfing that's going on here that I think is the big issue. This is clarifying, second-guessing. And it's interesting, too, because if that sort of externalized observer were continually saying, essentially, wow.
You're great. Way to go. Keep it up. Good on you. It wouldn't be a problem. It's that that externalized observer is doubtful and critical and... Often, if it's not doubtful or critical, it's definitely not affirming. It reminds me also of this line, I think, from James Joyce's book, The Dubliners. It's well known. It's about, I think, Mr. Duffy. The line was essentially, Mr. Duffy lived at some distance from his body.
Yeah, and I think that that's what people would report. And they would also report maybe a common cycle where they have self-awareness on the one hand. The self-awareness becomes self-consciousness. Oh, I see that part. Oh, I have that impulse. Oh, I said that thing, and now I'm thinking about it three days, if not three months, if not three years later.
And then there's self-consciousness about the self-consciousness. You know, it feeds itself. That ruminatory process kicks in. Then we get to some version of wow, I'm deeply broken, or wow, I must be self-obsessed because I'm just constantly thinking about myself in this way.
And this then leads to paralysis or a lack of authentic self-expression or just the sense that a person is playing small and not really fully involving themselves in the way you've described your dad in their own life. They're trapped. some distance from their body.
So the problem really isn't self-awareness, it's that excessive self-reflection, and particularly that self-consciousness part of it. And a piece of this that I wanted to ask you about, Dad, has to do with authenticity because in a weird way… self-consciousness and authenticity are kind of inversely correlated with each other. The more self-conscious we become, the less authentic we can be, right?
In a way, yeah. Yeah. And I wonder about that in terms of the feeling that people get of being stuck. Like, the self-awareness is making me stuck. And I wonder how much of that has to do with just a lack of authentic self-expression. That's deeply interesting. Also, a fair amount of that self-consciousness is externally referenced. Yes. Or it's referenced to an internalized audience of those others. In other words,
The skepticism and the criticism and the second guessing of oneself is often linked to in some ways an anticipated judgment from other people about oneself. So it is kind of a mess. And I would say for sure that I could relate to this very much myself. A quick little story here. left home i went to college and i ended up being the president of my dormitory at ucla 800 people kind of a deal and i was very young when i did it and also extremely socially awkward and clueless
And we had an advisor, an assistant dean named Carol Hetrick, one of the great teachers of my life. Wherever you are, Carol, today, I hope you're still around today. She seemed like an old woman to me. She was probably 25. So anyway, hopefully she's still around. As a detail, you were like 16 or something when you went to college, right? Yeah, I was 17 at the time when she was advising us.
I just watched her and she was so natural in guiding people. And it was a little bit like I would watch her and then I would freeze the video and I would spend the next five to 10 minutes. thinking about why she said what she said in the way she said it, and I would then understand it. But by then, 10 minutes more of events that occurred. And it took me a long time to gradually internalize her way of being so it was more native to me in real time.
And I think that's what we're talking about here. We're talking about helping ourselves become more in the flow, more relaxed, and a fair amount of that has to do with the willingness to flop. in effect you know that self-consciousness is trying to prevent a flop we're trying to prevent us from you know blowing it looking like a fool getting embarrassed it's that externally referenced socially referenced material here the more willing we are to just
I don't mean dump our crud on other people. I just mean lighten up some and be your own natural self. The more that we're willing to take that risk, then the less. burdened we're going to be by this split, this kind of divided consciousness in which there's the bulk of us that's, you know, streaming right along. And then there's this split off part that's observing and commenting. on all of ourself. So you're highlighting this really important shift, I think, from just pure self-awareness.
which we can highlight as a really good and useful thing. Like part of the question here is how do we get the benefit out of self-awareness without getting trapped in the problems with it? to that self-consciousness, which again is filled with a lot of that judgment. And what's self-consciousness trying to do? Like you were saying, trying to protect us from pain. So who's going to be more prone to this? Probably people.
who had uncomfortable experiences, whether they were with a caregiver or other kids or other kinds of situations where there was a lot of external judgment. tied to their behavior. And so what happens? You internalize that judgment as that inner critic, as you've written about a lot, Dad, that then prevents you from doing the things in an anticipatory way.
that could potentially lead to criticism. And that becomes a part in kind of the IFS terminology. That becomes a part of the inner chorus, right? And that inner chorus, all the parts of it have good purposes that they play, by and large.
Maybe we can finesse that a little bit, but certainly in Richard Schwartz's conception, no bad parts, right? They're all good parts. They all have a function. The question is, are they doing the right job or not? So then we get to a really important question. What supports somebody? and being able to listen to all of the instruments in the orchestra.
and make good choices about which one to listen to the most today, or which one to acknowledge for a little while and then be like, okay, I appreciate the function you're trying to provide here, but it's just not the time for you. And this gets, I think, to a really important...
idea that is also pretty poorly defined. It's called ego strength. It comes from psychoanalysis, but it's been applied in a lot of different ways in other approaches to therapy, Dad. And I'm wondering if you could just give a little explanation here of what's ego strength. We could be aware right now that in the process of listening here, there's a kind of central core to the psyche. And that central core...
has a certain coherence over time. It's very prominent when you do anything willfully. The central core sort of witnesses the other aspects of the psyche. And when there's good ego strength, that central core helps us deal with intense pressures and challenges of different kinds. It guides us. to take the higher road, it helps us keep going. And it negotiates among the many different voices. I think of a little bit like King Arthur's Roundtable or a committee of sorts.
The central core of the psyche is like the chair of the committee, ideally. And this doesn't mean that that central core is some kind of static brick-like entity. It's the way I think of it as... kind of an eddy in the stream of consciousness that has a lot of stability, like the great red spot of Jupiter, right? That's essentially a super storm and that's been there for a while and will be there for a while. So it's dynamic, but it has a certain stability.
inside the stream of consciousness the interesting thing is that ideally that inner core is able to observe the sub-personalities involved in problematic self-consciousness and can reel them in. There's a place for being able to step apart from ourselves and look at ourselves, but what we really want to be able to do is complete the cycle of that. We want to bring it to an end so it doesn't become rumination. So there's a central core in us, we'll call it the ego, can go, okay, yeah, rewinding.
I was a little weird in that interaction. My tone was off. The next time I come into a meeting like that or deal with my partner's parents or end up talking about politics with my brother-in-law, I'm going to come at it in a different way.
Okay, I got it. Lesson learned. Move on. And then that self-conscious voice that's uneasy and second-guessing gets quiet. You know, the core can do that. And the last thing I want to say about this executive core and its capabilities... is that where it often begins for people, and it definitely was true for me, is that it starts out feeling quite heady and rational and top-down, but over time, the opportunity...
is for the central core to become increasingly informed by the depths of the psyche and increasingly integrated into the fullness of the psyche and more. more grounded in a sense of being. This executive core feels less and less separated from everything else, and it feels more entwined with everything else, including...
the larger world. So identity starts broadening, you know, initially a personal identity tends to be involved with this executive core, but over time, identity can, can extend into the person as a whole and then out.
further into relationships and the world altogether that are involved in the ongoing constructing of the person as a whole. So to maybe try to summarize and simplify some of what you just said and One of the things with some of the early psychoanalytic stuff is that all of this terminology was used that then Freud or Jung or Anna Freud or whoever then spent like three sentences talking about what they meant by this phrase.
before going on to use it in a thousand different ways that were not actually totally well-defined, but it was a lot of like, I don't know how to define it, but you know it when you see it going on out there. And shout out to whatever that Supreme Court case was. But to kind of try to summarize some of this, the basic idea is that on the one hand, we have those desires for what I'll call pure authenticity.
That's like id content. It's creative, it's sometimes explosive, it includes a lot of urges in it that we think of as not being totally socially acceptable, all that stuff. But it's very authentic. It's like pure authenticity.
Then on the other hand, we have desires for appropriateness. We're aware of that part of us that is watching us from the outside. And a lot of what we're talking about here today is how to quiet that part down a little bit, right? That's more superego. And then there's this...
beleaguered manager part the ego that's trying to row the boat through the narrow path in between the two of them so what does ego strength actually help us do maybe we can talk about this practically it helps us do things like balancing those different sometimes contradictory demands, right? It allows us to manage the urges and desires of the id on the one hand with negotiating between the ideals of the superego, its perfection-seeking impulses, and actual real reality.
the other hand. It also helps us cope with reality. Ego strength helps people with things like adaptation and reality testing, which can be often a little challenging sometimes for the same people who say, I have all of this self-awareness. they're not always great at reality testing in terms of determining what's actually true about themselves through the world around them.
It also might help us regulate our emotions, right? Deal with overwhelm, tolerate frustration, delay gratification, all of that important stuff. And I think that that's a really good place to focus here where ego strength is that thing. that keeps us from being overwhelmed, whether that overwhelm is coming more internally or more externally. It represents resilience and adaptation and this kind of psychological middle path.
between these various extremes that a person has. Because if you think about it, again, when we're talking about being frozen by self-awareness, we're talking about overwhelm. emotional overwhelm, psychological overwhelm, sometimes decision fatigue, because you feel like you see all of these options, but you can't actually choose between any of them. And so the question is, how can we work with that overwhelm and become more capable?
of a making a choice at all and b hopefully making good choices and i'm wondering dad with regards to that what do you think helps people develop that capacity more in adulthood Because theoretically, these are strengths that people tend to develop as they're developing, as they're kids. In adulthood, I have seen a lot of people benefit from doing things. that call upon the will that require determination and the development of determination, of fortitude, tenacity.
stick-to-itiveness. These qualities in people are all expressions of healthy ego strength. I think of William James, who said that everyone should do one thing every day, that you know is good for you, but you don't really want to do. So you develop the muscle of the will. So I think that's one thing that's very real for people. And I know a lot of people who would be more able to build the life they want if that quote-unquote muscle were stronger. So that's on the one hand.
On the other hand, I know a lot of people whose key issue is they have a strong ego. They have strong ego strength, but it's not integrated into the whole of themselves. And that... Strong ego is used in the service of various goals and pressures and shoulds, quote unquote, that create a lot of suffering for them and wear on their health and often create trouble with other people too.
So that's the second opportunity, to have the sense of ego become increasingly integrated with the person as a whole and more. So that identity starts to shift, and I'm going to draw on a statement from Jung here. Identity starts to shift from the small s self to the capital S self. being as a whole. And the way he put it, which is quite interesting, is he said the capital S self is the subject to which the ego is an object. Yeah, interesting.
So those would be two developments that I think are quite available for people in adulthood that can really have a lot of benefits. This might seem surprising, but I have always struggled to eat enough vegetables. Ever since I was a kid, I just didn't want to eat them. And although I've worked on that in my adulthood, it's still not my favorite thing to do. So I love finding ways to get more greens into my diet as painlessly as possible. And that's where today's sponsor comes in.
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I want to ask you about a situation with a person who could very well be listening to this, who is like, I've got no shortage of desire to choose. I want to do it. But what I'm struggling with is figuring out what I should be doing, if that makes sense. I want to do something, but I'm having a hard time.
separating the better angels of my nature here from the ones that are more problematic in a world where these both feel like good considerations. I want to behave in a way that other people like. and that will be received well, and that I'll get good feedback about. Because when people tell me to be authentic, but then when I am authentic, I feel like I get criticized for it.
So what do I do here? I feel like I'm in a bit of a double bind. And I'm wondering what you think about that, Dad. It's a very common situation. And I even wonder if it would be helpful to do almost a kind of a role play in which... Sure, I wasn't prepped for this, but why not? I'm trying to think of it. Can you think of a good example of a family of issues here?
Oh, just the ones you said so far? Yeah, okay, great. Yeah, like desire for self-expression, but when I express myself in the way that I want to, I feel like I'm told that I'm too big. I feel like I get negative feedback about it. people are like whoa you really you really went there that was you know very high energy and i i wasn't prepared for it whatever it is yeah okay in this case i'm
wanting to foreground the ways that it relates to this whole question of ego strength or painful self-consciousness. Yeah, totally. So let's say that we're starting that you, this imaginary person that, you know. many of us can relate to, me included, is painfully self-conscious and kind of tongue-tied now. They don't know whether to shut down. They don't know whether to speak up. They're kind of caught in the middle, in between.
And as a quick comment, a lot of this has to do with boundary setting related topics. This often comes up for people, this kind of a dance between they want to express themselves, they want to express a desire, make an ask, they have a want, they have a need. in there that wants to come out, but it just can't for whatever reason. Yeah, go ahead, Dad. So, and this does relate very much to the notion of
What do we do with self-awareness? So I might ask this person, and you can get into it as a role play here. I might say, okay, what's an important experience or longing? that you'd like to communicate? That's a great question. Okay, give me a second. I'm trying to drop into this character. Well, I just feel like I'm kind of invisible around other people. And I want to get involved and I want to be a part of a group, essentially play with the other kids on the playground.
Yeah. But whenever I do, it feels like I'm kind of joining at the wrong time. I'm not reading the room right. I'm sort of nervous about it or self-conscious about it. And I just feel like I can't express myself in that way. So there's the observing ego, that's Freud's phrase, the observing ego part of you that can recognize that about yourself, that longing. And I might ask first, are you interested?
In the other people, partly related to Stephen Covey's seven habits, be interested rather than trying to be interesting. Sometimes it depends. You know, there are people you're with that. maybe you're not so interested in, but you still kind of want them to like you. But a lot of the time, this is with people that I would actually like to have more of a relationship with or be closer to. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What I'm getting at is that
wanting to be interesting, basically creating little internal rehearsals of, well, I could say X or I could say Y or I could say Z. That's a slippery slope. Yeah, no, I do think that is a thing for me here. To morbid self-consciousness. I do think that part of it is that I want people to like me, I want to be interesting, and I think that if they just like me enough, then I'll be able to kind of... kind of play more. Right, right. So you see, I'm a very self-aware person, right, Rick?
Yeah, you're very self-aware. It's wonderful. We can build on this. It's great. It's a great asset. And what I'm hearing so far is that you're quite preoccupied with yourself and you're caught up in... how you're evaluating your performance, you're rehearsing or imagining different entries. And in a way, that solution to the problem of being included can create the problem of...
excluding yourself. Wow, yeah. Well, what do you think I can do about that? The difference would be to just explore what it's like to be genuinely interested in the inner world. of the other people and rest in that interest and let that interest naturally draw you into nodding or smiling or making little comments that are in rapport with those other people. Yeah, yeah. And I appreciate what you're saying. I do think that's something I could do more.
But man, I just got to tell you, there are all these times when I really do, I like the people I'm with, I'm interested in what they're saying. And there's just this, when I try to get to... I don't even have the words with it. It's like when I try to do the thing, I have a hard time doing it. I get kind of self-critical. I get worried about what will happen if I do it.
And honestly, I just feel like whenever I do, it kind of just doesn't go very well for me. Even when I'm very interested. Right. This actually gets at... And I'm so glad we're doing this role play, by the way. I'm popping out of it now. I'm just trying to play along here a little bit. I hope I'm not being like intentionally difficult or something, but I'm just trying to highlight the next step of it. Because it highlights the fact that so much of self-consciousness
consciousness has to do with what we want to get. Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that. I thought that was a really good point. Okay. And I'm reversing it by emphasizing, what do you want to give? And I will make the observation. that resting in a simple, genuine interest in others and a simple, genuine... unconditional positive regard for them, a kind of a blessing disposition, basic kindness in which you're there to, you're not there to get for yourself. You're there to be.
affirming of them, lubricating for them of the social interactions. One, that takes the pressure off you. Self-consciousness is a kind of pressure. And the pressure... gets in the way of the aims that we have. For me, it was actually an incredible breakthrough when I realized that most people don't listen to each other. So if I'm the person in the room...
That's a deeply true comment, just in general, but keep on going here, Dan. Yeah, if I'm the person in the room who is least trying to be impressive and is... listening the best and is the least ill at ease because it's very easy to simply be a listener. It's very easy to rest in good wishes for others and rest in seeing the good in others. Well, the wonderful truth is that that's the best possible strategy to get.
inclusion and friendship from other people. I think you're totally right on here, and I love that you're highlighting this. And it even gets to, I'm playing a little... fast and loose with the neuropsychology here, but it even gets to some brain science stuff.
that I wanted to talk about a little bit during this episode to do it just really, really quickly here because you've given me such a smooth entry into it. And then I want to get back to the role play, which I think was getting to a really good point. Self-consciousness has a lot in common with rumination.
Yeah. Rumination and self-reflection in general are tied to this particular part of the brain that we've talked about on the podcast a lot. It's a part of the being well bingo game. You can fill out your card. It's the default mode network.
And the default mode network is this really wonderful part of the brain. It's what the brain defaults to when you're not applying attention to something else. You're just cracking up over there. I love this, Dad. We need a bingo card. We should have a bingo card. You're right. You're right. We need a bingo card. We have about 20 squares.
You know, and oh my goodness. And we could even do a thing like those advent calendars. Hey, if somebody wants to make a being well bingo card or just like send in comments, if you're watching on YouTube, comment below with like what should be on the bingo card. Oh my God.
Oh, yeah. And we need merch. So it should look like an advent calendar with those little windows. Oh, I love that. Oh, I love this. This is great. Wow. I mean, it'll be our first item of merchandise. All proceeds donated to your favorite.
Favorite nonprofit. Absolutely. Because we've avoided all merchandise to this point for many reasons. But yeah. Okay. So anyways, default mode network. It's called that because it's what your brain defaults to when you're not actively applying attention. And self-aware processes, the ability to like... think about thoughts, that kind of self-reflection, is as near as we can tell a totally human trait.
we're not aware of any other animal that does this maybe they do we can't really know for sure but they probably don't because they don't really have the brain structures that they need to pull it off Now, the problem with it is that it is absolutely saturated with what you're talking about, Dad, which is selfing. It is me, myself, and I. There's this very, very narrow focus on what's going on in you. and you're highlighting this very deliberate movement from the default mode network
out of those kind of more midline networks in the brain into more lateral networks, more of a sense of openness, spaciousness, interest in other people. There's some really interesting research even on stuff like lifting your gaze. how we tend to contract, our gaze tends to lower. What happens when we lift our eyeline? What parts of the brain does it activate?
kind of interesting stuff over there. Maybe a little fringy, but interesting nonetheless. So I just love that you're highlighting this here, Dad. I think this is really important. That's great. I'm glad that we're doing this, actually. Could I switch to a different roleplay? Sure, yeah. What would you like me to jump in on? Here's the only thing, is that I do want to get some help from you, the therapist.
with me, the client, around this issue of, no, I am authentically interested, but oh, I've got this external voice, this external judgment that's really stopping me from doing the thing. Does that make sense? That's great. That's very close to where I was going to go next. Great. Where were you going to go? Yeah. So same person. So this is a person who's socially anxious.
to use a kind of a phrase. And there's a lot of wonderful material about social anxiety, which really does overlap everything you're saying, Forrest, about rumination and morbid self-consciousness. So let's suppose that you've bought in to step one. Yeah, got to be interested. Be more over there with them. Yeah. And realize that that's a really easy job. You're just there to listen.
You don't have to be witty. You're there to appreciate how witty they are. It's easy. Okay, let's say that's true. And let's say also, though, that to use your specific example, you... want to be freer to express certain parts of yourself in the group. Yeah, express yourself, be with other people in a way that feels authentic as opposed to constricted, like a performance, whatever. Yeah. Let's suppose that a part of you is critical of you and sucks you into...
a kind of inner process that slows you down. You know, in a sense, it's kind of like interactions are like volleys in tennis, okay? The other person says something, and to go back to my mentor, Carol Hetrick, you know, a million years ago. When people would hit the ball over the net, boom, Carol would just respond. I would be staring at that ball for the next 10 minutes trying to figure out, you know, backhand, forehand, topspin, I don't know. You know what I mean? Okay.
So, but when other people say something, let's suppose that you, now we're doing the role play, you're caught up with that critical part of yourself trying to figure out of your five options, which is the best one to do. And it slows you down.
Yeah, the conversation's moved on. Yeah. Yeah, and it's no longer that time. So you have that part of you. Then let's also suppose that there's a naturalness in you that may... go back to how you were as a sweet kid that's sort of soft and a little naive, kind of sweet. And I do think that a huge piece of this gets to younger parts, which is what you're highlighting here, Dad. That's right. That's right. And it would be really good.
Again, in the frame in which you're in there for other people, you're interested, so forth, and then they do something and this natural response would come out. It would be maybe a little goofy, like a sweet, warm 10-year-old kid. Okay, right? But ooh, it's been suppressed because it was associated with embarrassment in the past. So if you think of now this three-part structure, we have the core ego, and then we have this critic yelling at.
And then we have this sweet, friendly, a little awkward, younger part, shy, that's over in the corner that we want to get more in the room. Okay? All right. So there you are. And this is a great example of developing ego strength that over time looks at that critical part and says, I hear you. You want me to make sure I don't do some catastrophic social suicide here.
I got it. I'm not going to stick a pencil in somebody's ear. I'm not going to jump on a chair and start ranting. I got it. I got it. You don't need to tell me anymore. In other words, there's a place for the core. to address subpersonalities like a firm parent. And an analogy that's often used is training a puppy. So think of this critic as like a puppy. It doesn't know it better. It's there to do its thing. It thinks it's helping.
So when it messes up, you don't beat it. You wouldn't want to beat the puppy. You wouldn't want to hurt the puppy. You wouldn't want to be extreme, but you'd want to be firm and guide the puppy to better behavior. This part of me is trying to help me. And thank you. I got the message and now I'm going to hang up the phone. By the way, that gesture I made there of hanging up a phone.
Dates me, obviously, because no one of your generation has ever hung up a phone in that way. You just push the button. Lord knows anyone younger than me, yeah. That's right. Okay. With regard then to the sweet part. the core ego, again, can be really encouraging. Like, come on, it's okay. You can come out to play and maybe even guide that younger part away from...
You know, some things that might be a little problematic that it might have done when younger, like hog the spotlight, you know, more than the five seconds worth or 10 in a normal interaction that's appropriate. but with a little bit of guidance can make room for it. And so much of this, I'll just finish on this point, is somatic. It's you feel in your body that part, all right? And...
It's almost like you let that part really inhabit you, really occupy you. And then the expression is running through that part of you, which you're in touch with. somatically. You simply come from there with people. I want to highlight two pieces of this at the opposite ends of the spectrum.
The first piece has to do with over-analysis and getting wrapped up in the thoughts we have about the thoughts that we're having about the thoughts that are about the thoughts. You know what I mean? Where we're really going. down that rabbit hole and getting sucked into that cognizing around it. Because I think that that's a part of self-awareness that people can get really trapped in. The other side of the spectrum is shame experiences. Because a person might rightly
say, some version if we kind of go back to our little roleplay here. Sounds totally great. I really hear what you're saying about kindly nudging that manager part.
A little bit off to the side, appreciating it and saying, hey, okay, buddy, thank you for your service, but we just don't need you to say as much. And then on the other hand, when I kind of turn to that younger... part or that more authentic part, that id content, however you want to refer to it here, man, I just get hammered by shame, shame, shame.
I just get hammered by all the memories of all of these experiences I've had where I just feel like it's never gone well. And I just have a really hard time doing some version of graduated exposure here. Because just, man, there is a lot of fear there because there's been a lot of suffering in the past. And those are kind of two different sides of the spectrum, but I think they're both real for people, and they can actually both be real for the same person.
Yeah. So I'm wondering if we're getting toward the end here, and these are big topics, but if there's anything that you would offer to those two different sides of the spectrum. Well, if we could do the role play a little bit, so you're that person. So I might ask you, is this sweet, friendly, slightly awkward part of you, is it a real part of you?
Oh, it's a totally real part of me. I think it feels very real to me. It feels very authentically a part of who I am. But I don't really like it very much. It's one that I've got to... I feel like whenever I act from it, whenever I listen to it, bad things happen to me. It just feels like it hasn't gone very well. Yeah, it's just not a part that I've got a very good relationship with.
Can you imagine what it would be like for you or how things might change inside if you find a way to like it? I mean, it sounds nice, but man, oof. It's very edgy for me. And I'm not really sure even where I would start. It's something where I've tried to do that a bit. I've heard people say things like, you know, love yourself or, oh, no bad parts or whatever, but I just have a really hard time with this bit. Yeah. Have people mistreated that part of you? Oh, yeah. I feel like...
Particularly when I was younger, I wasn't really allowed to act from this part very much. I had to be pretty adult pretty quick, or I would get a lot of negative feedback. I felt like other kids didn't like it very much. I felt like when I was being in that more manager-y part of myself, I just got a lot more positive feedback from people. Do you know what it feels like to feel kind toward someone? Yeah, totally. Okay. How do you feel about the mistreatment that this part of you has suffered?
Well, I mean, it's pretty emotional for me. I don't like it. It's funny. On the one hand, I feel the way that you're suggesting. I do feel like it's been mistreated. feel bad for it to some extent. And at the same time, right next to it, I've kind of been bad at this part. And it's, I don't know, it's sort of hard to hold both of those things at the same time. You know what I mean? That's the mistreatment.
I do understand. And here we're talking, and if people are listening, I'm speaking to your observing ego, right? And you can see the usefulness of having that observing ego. and how productive it can be. This is not rumination. This is not we are going somewhere. That's the difference between rumination and healthy self-reflection. It goes somewhere.
So where we're going here, you know, did this part of you, this sort of young, sweet, slightly goofy, awkward part, did it deserve the mistreatment? No, I don't think so. I think that it's not like I was doing bad things. I was just kind of being a kid. Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of unfair. Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. So they ganged up on this part of you, and kids will do that. They all agreed it was—they also identified you with it. Yeah, and there's some—
you know, just some parent stuff there too. I got similar feedback from, you know, my mom and my dad and yeah, it's a whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So a lot of people sort of came down hard on this part of you. Yeah. So there's kind of a choice here in a way to appreciate that it took a fair amount of damage. It took a certain amount of water.
over the bridge, you know. And, you know, sure, maybe it was a little awkward, but wow, did it really deserve all that? Yeah. No, I think you're totally right. Yeah. Yeah, and so there can be a shift if you can feel it authentically, and we're doing this very quickly, of course, to shift into both liking that part, particularly in its core. It's like maybe that part...
went too far. But the part itself is not a problem. Yeah, and it's funny as you, and I'm still kind of in character to some extent here, but I'm also commenting. As you talked about it, using that language of Could you see the ways in which it was unfair, that it was mistreated in these ways? Those more quote-unquote objective questions as opposed to the more emotionally loaded questions. It became easier for me to get on the side of that part.
The anger toward that part that I was feeling as the character, it didn't disappear in that it wasn't there anymore. It disappeared in that it went offstage. It was no longer… a character in it. It wasn't getting in the way of seeing the truth of the experience.
And then you were able to kind of come back to like, well, can you feel nice to the part? And again, in character, that's where I was like, yeah, I don't know if I can get to that yet, but I can agree with what you're saying about like seeing the ways in which it was mistreated and development.
compassion toward it and kind of getting on the side of it. And so I thought that was a good process you were doing there, Dad. Yeah. And as we finish up here, the distinction between the parts of ourselves as innately okay. including the really critical parts. It's just that sometimes they go too far. And that's the issue. So we can separate out the going-too-farness from the innate.
good intentions, and aliveness of these parts of ourselves. The executive core, the ego core of ourselves can shift into a sense of protection. and valuing of these various parts, shifting away from disowning them and scorning them and scolding them. I myself, even though I get the language of parts and so forth and subpersonalities, I fear that sometimes we're reifying selfing in just a more granulated way. So now we have all these mini selves.
that are granulated and separate. And in a way, so what in that, back in character here, in that so-called part, think of... currents moving through what we're calling a part of you? Motivations, delights, energies, enthusiasms. What were some of the good things really moving through that part of you? You mean through that part that I don't like as much? Yeah. Oh, I mean, it was very playful. I just wanted to kind of run and play and do things all the time.
I think it had very loving instincts towards other people, just wanted to kind of be part of the group, be included, have something to say, but mostly just be included. I think of it as like a very creative part, a very imaginative part. I feel like sometimes as I've aged, I've kind of lost touch with some of that imagination, which I think is really tied to that. Yeah. Yeah, those are all qualities I really liked about it. Wonderful. Those can be really appreciated. Yeah.
And one could also ask, what would have been so good if it had happened back then? In other words, what would have been so good for people to have said wisely? whether it was your parents or your peers, to have communicated wisely when that part was in full flood. I think for starters to just kind of be less mean to it.
a little more accepting, a little more appreciating of it as just kind of a normal, you know, kids and normal part of the equation. And that would have been really great for starters, just like the absence of some bad stuff. Yeah, appreciating what it was trying to do, even if it wasn't doing that, maybe as skillfully as it could have. Yeah, I just felt like that part, which I experienced as being really me, wasn't appreciated very much. So that's tough.
Yeah, so it would have been so good then, and it can be very powerful to say it now, for example, it would have been so good then if people had said, wow, this is a really wonderful part of you. brings life, it's joyful, it's only great, and it's kind of time to switch to a different mode. Right? Or something like that. Or this is a really wonderful part of you. And we actually now need to get something done. You know, we have to do the dishes and something. It's wonderful.
And also, right, other things are now called for. Yeah. And that would have been so great. Yeah, I think that would have been better. Definitely. Yeah. Or there's a wonderful part of you and... Well, the intensity of it is just getting a little overwhelming for me over here. It's still wonderful, but I just kind of wonder if you could turn down the volume some. Then I would be more able to stay.
in relationship to it yeah right people had said these these kinds of things and these are the kinds of things we can say to ourselves now we can almost talk to that part and say because all the parts of us are there to help, they all have a beauty, they all have a function, you know, and especially the parts that have been shamed, it's really important for the ego core to be able to...
communicate to them in a really loving way. I think that's great, Dad. And this is one of those conversations that we have sometimes where... We sort of started in one place and we ended up in a different one that I think was very much thematically connected to it. But I wasn't really sure where we were going to go in the second half of this conversation when it got to the more practical side of it. And I really loved how you brought in that roleplay aspect.
very useful for me and I hope it was helpful for people listening because it's sort of one thing to engage with these issues in that more let's just talk about them thematically kind of way versus actually living in them and living in the experience who is. is dealing with somebody who's dealing with that. So again, if you're watching on YouTube…
If you feel like that person, if you could comment down below how you felt about that roleplay, that would be really useful for me. You can also send us an email to contact at beingwellpodcast.com. And I'm just really curious what people think about this one. I thought it was super interesting.
By the way, I just really appreciated your willingness to step into that role play. Character it up, maybe. Do a little character work. Yeah, yeah. I want to make a broad comment as we close here about self-consciousness. is relevant to the role play that we just did. So much of self-consciousness at bottom involves an excessively tight coupling between oneself and the world.
There's this concern that if we do X or Y or Z or fail to do A or B or C, then the world will go on tilt and it will be bad for us. As we relax problematic self-consciousness, there's a growing sense of decoupling between how we are in this life and the world altogether. We often care too much about what other people think. And we implement in our lives today learnings we acquired when we were young from people who did not know what they were doing.
we're not aware of the 20 different forces bubbling along inside us. They only were reacting to kind of what was on the surface while being busy with 10 other things themselves. And they didn't know. So we've acquired all these lessons from people who really didn't know. And here we are today, sort of stuck with them. And I'm kind of advocating here for not being... oblivious to our impacts on others, but to a certain loosening and realizing that, yeah, we live in this life mainly for ourselves.
We ourselves are the one who are most keenly affected by our own life. Other people are impacted a little bit. We're impacted a hundred, a thousand times more. than the people we live with or sleep with even, then they're impacted by us. We are impacted by ourselves a hundred, a thousand times more than other people are impacted by us. So we should pay particular attention to how we are impacting ourselves.
and live more freely as ourselves in the world with less self-consciousness and tight regulation about how we might be coming across to other people. Really enjoyed today's conversation talking with Rick about self-awareness and particularly how self-awareness can lead to self-consciousness, which can then cause a lot of problems for people.
And we started with the obvious. Self-awareness is really useful. It helps us recognize our strengths and weaknesses, understand our emotions, and make choices that align with our values. It's also kind of the key to growth and self-improvement. Because it lets us see the things that we're currently struggling with and identify what some of the core issues might be that are leading us to struggle with those things.
But there are some challenges that can come from self-awareness as well. For example, the more aware we are of our interior, the more that we see all the bits and pieces of who we are that we don't really like so much. Seeing our negative traits. Past mistakes or unresolved issues can be a pretty unfun part of the growth process. And we have to be able to integrate the feedback that we give ourselves.
in a really useful way and this is where self-compassion comes in but self-compassion is really hard for many people then second self-aware individuals tend to engage in a lot of self-reflection and again while this can be useful for people
It tends to lead a lot of the time to overthinking and rumination. There's also some interesting research that suggests that more self-reflective people are not generally more self-aware they're just more self-reflective so they're thinking about themselves a lot but all those thoughts are not necessarily getting them anywhere productive and then third self-awareness brings into awareness
our internal fragmentation. This is the dance of various parts, the war of different parts of our psyche against other parts of our psyche, different desires being in conflict with each other. And this is all stuff that can lead to paralysis and overthinking and feelings of inadequacy, deflated self-image. Because we only see the aspects of ourselves that are more problematic, we get really wrapped up in them.
And as this is all going on, it's easy to start viewing yourself not as you, but as this kind of judgmental third-person perspective outsider who's watching you as you try to move through the world. Speaking personally, as somebody who's definitely done that in my own life, that's a tough spot to be in, and it can be really paralyzing.
Then we spent a little while focusing on the internal fragmentation piece of things. Self-awareness increases our ability to perceive all of the different voices in the room of who we are. And these voices often pull a person in many different directions. There might be competing desires and particularly difficulty for people balancing authenticity with the desire to be appropriate.
or otherwise not express what they perceive as more inappropriate behaviors or urges as people become more self-aware it's normal for them
to develop a more granular awareness of parts of their personality or different voices inside of them that activate a lot of shame, activate a lot of anxiety, make them kind of uncomfortable. And then alongside that, as they become more aware of what they haven't expressed yet, what hasn't really come into being that is authentic to them, there's more of this felt sense of repression or inauthenticity.
And as awareness of all of those competing desires goes up, there's also a greater felt sense of a lack of integration. The fight for control of the self moves from the subconscious to the conscious mind. And this form of problematic self-awareness is self-consciousness. It's closely associated with a part of the brain called the default mode network. We talked about that a little bit during the episode, which is tied to self-referential thinking.
So what do we want here? We want the ability to apply self-awareness without it turning into problematic forms of self-consciousness. So what allows us to do that? We want to be able to see all of the content that's inside of us without getting sucked into negative outside-in cycles related to it. We want to be able to sort through all of that content, all of those various voices, without getting overwhelmed by them, without being captured by...
any individual part. And then we want the ability to choose, the ability to make a choice, make a decision, and stick with it over time. So what supports this? A couple of things that we talked about over the rest of the episode. First, attentional control, the ability to apply mindfulness, get out of the default mode network, and see and select those various voices.
Then second, something that Rick kind of Trojan-horsed in at the end there, self-compassion is a huge part of this. And third, ego strength, which we spent a good bit of time talking about. Ego strength is one of those phrases in psychology that is honestly not super well defined, at least in the original work on it.
It's connected to psychoanalytic theory that we explored a bit during the episode on our psychological defenses, and it refers to the ego's ability to effectively manage the demands of the id, the superego, and, hello, reality. Because the thing is that both the id and the superego are very impractical parts of who we are.
We aren't going to be perfect, whether it is perfectly moral or perfectly in alignment with other people. And we're not going to be able to express ourselves exactly the way that we want to all the time. Both of those ideals are unrealistic. And ego strength is what helps us navigate this. It's the capital S self, to use IFS terminology. part inside of us, this piece of us, that allows us to swim between all of the various options and find something resembling a middle path.
We then took this kind of theoretical conversation and applied it through a role play where Rick asked me to embody the kind of person who I was thinking of. Somebody who had a lot of self-awareness. but was really trapped in self-consciousness. They were able to see this whole dance going on inside of them, but had a really hard time connecting with any one part and empowering it in a way that would let them act the way that they wanted to out in the world.
And in this particular example, which is just one example and a play-acted example at that, Rick highlighted the function of these two different parts, these two different aspects of the consciousness. Where on the one hand, there's that external, more judgmental part. And on the other hand, there's this more vulnerable, younger internal part that has a lot that it wants to say, but feels kind of stymied in its self-expression.
And I think that Rick really did this wonderful dance with those parts where the person, me, the client, in this case, had a lot of negative judgment. toward that younger, more vulnerable part and was kind of taking the side of the judgmental part. And very skillfully, Rick was able to kind of open up the seeing of that younger, more vulnerable part.
and expand how the client thought about it. There wasn't this kind of force-feeding of, oh, just love the part. It was about seeing the part more completely, understanding where it was coming from, and learning how to work with it a little bit more skillfully. Then alongside that, I really loved how he highlighted the movement from self-preoccupation. In other words, wanting to be perceived as a valuable person, popular, successful inside of the group, somebody that other people liked.
And moving from that focus to a focus on, huh, how can I actually be authentically interested in these other people? Which on the one hand is so obvious, and on the other hand, really does tend to get lost sometimes. So I hope you enjoyed today's episode. I thought it was a really interesting one personally. I wasn't really sure where we were going to go with it, but I thought that we landed in a really cool place.
Particularly, I'm curious about any feedback you have about the roleplay aspect of it. If people liked it, that's certainly something that we could do more of in future episodes of the podcast. So very interested in hearing your feedback about that. You can reach us at contact at beingwellpodcast.com. You can leave a comment if you're watching on YouTube. If you're listening on Spotify or iTunes, you can leave a rating and a positive review.
That would really help us out. And if you've gotten this far and you haven't subscribed to the podcast yet, please subscribe if you've got a moment. Until next time, thanks for listening, and I'll talk to you soon.