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Listen at your convenience, and remember every program is archived, so you can listen to any Being Frank virtually anytime that you want to. We think it's the intelligent thing to do. We're taping on June eighth. Is an eighth or ninth? Let me check the calendar. It's June eighth, so that gives you some relevance as the program, as we said, is archived. To say that race has played a role in American society since its very inception
would be a gross understatement. So much of what we are as a country is colored while by color. In the four hundred year plus years since African slaves were first imported to the nascent Jamestown settlement in what would become Virginia, we have struggle to either completely create or even manage a truly equitable society. Certainly, strides have been made at the cost of hundreds of thousands of American lives. Remember the Civil War, and African Americans continue to struggle with burdens
simply not experienced by white folk in almost every significant social category. Yet the African American experience is rich in history American history. Few modern Americans can trace their connection to this country for more generations the nose of African descent or have
contributed more to its growth. Despite the efforts of many bigoted state legislatures to censure the efforts to truly understand our history and the role that race continues to play in it, there are those who will not be silenced and will always tell their stories. Joining us is now such a man. He's been a guest before, and we welcome back mister Wilbert Aldrich, a regional director for the n double ACP based here in Nyack. Mister Aldris, thank you for
joining us once again. On being frank, Thank you for having me. It's wonderful to be here. I want to talk a little bit about the history you know in my preamble, if you will, a lot to cover there, But African Americans have made a tremendous amount of created a tremendous amount of history in America, and it's often lost or misplaced. One of the efforts to recover some of that history is through the holiday known as Juneteenth.
Could you please explain to us what is the history behind that the date and what is its significance today? All right? Juneteenth is as our historical event because it marks the last group of African Americans who were informed that they were free. And this occurred in Texas. As you know, we did not have telephones, telegraph, or internet or any of that kinds of thing during that period in our history, so therefore everything was done by word of mouth.
So it took almost ten years for that information to get to all of the slaves in Texas to know that they're free. The significance is, until we're all free, none of us are free. So at that point that meant that those people in Texas joined all of the other numerous numbers of African Americans throughout this country who knew that they were free and then had to make a choice, a choice to whether to leave their masters or stay under different
circumstances, but remained where they were. So that's the last group, that's the significance for us. The significant is that we don't want to forget nor do we want to leave anyone behind as far as making sure that equality is there for everyone. Now people think of the Emancipation Proclamation signed by President Abraham Lincoln in eighteen sixty three, my memory serves me correctly, but in a sense, until the war was one, it really was just a piece of
paper. If people were not to were not to observe it. And again, a price was paid, a toll was paid in blood. H And it's amazing that it still took ten years, and even with the significance of again words in practice, obviously it's taken even so much longer, particularly in the South, but everywhere in this country in terms of elevating people of color,
particularly African Americans, to a level of equality. So I think that and today, and it's a theme that I want to get into a little bit later on, there seems to be a movement to squash some of that history. And I'm not sure why. Why Why are people afraid of the truth. I mean, the truth is of the emancipation problem, that the truth is that it took ten years for all the slaves to be truly free. Why are so many people afraid to share that as it is the truth.
It makes us whole in terms of what we are. No one is perfect, no country is perfect, So why should we apply to truth your feelings. Well, the Emancipation Proclamation was you're correct, just a document. But as you know, the Constitution starts with we the people. At that point in time, African Americans were not considered people. We were one third of a person. So therefore we the people really did not apply to African
Americans. That only apply to white folks and mainly European folks. Why are we so reluctant because we are very We are very comfortable discussing the Holocaust. No one says we can't talk about that. We don't want to discuss that at all. That's not I mean, you do have some crazy people that
say it didn't happen, but we don't have a problem discussing it. The reason I believe we have a problem discussing anything pertaining to discrimination, racism, or race in general is because that's a stain on the flag of America and we don't want we wanted to appear that we've always been the perfect people. Certainly done nothing to anyone that would be to the extent of slavery is there. So therefore, if we can, if we can quail the discussion,
then in essence it didn't happen, and we all know it did. So I mean, it's only if there's a minority group of people who I think fall into that category that don't believe slavery happened. But there are those that really just don't want to discuss it, and we are very quick to some people are very quick to say, well, that has nothing to do with me because I didn't slaves, but many of your ancestors did. And it's
acknowledging a wrong is one way of correcting a wrong. You know, it's those perfect segue into my next question, and it's been hotly debated, and
I think it fits right into our discussion and as reparation. Okay, there are many people, not only African Americans, but other whites as well, who feel that certainly, certainly some institution oh monetary amounts literally their success, their growth to the labor of slaves, and it's time to compensate the descendants of those people properly for the work that was taken from them to build some of these institutions. Of course, that's a controversial point of view for many
people. The argument on the other side, even I could make as a as a second generation American, where my family only came in the early part of the twentieth century, so obviously we're not directly involved. But I understand that as a society we use things that are built, and we're built literally on slave labor. How do how do we compensate for that? What are what are your thoughts on reparation? My thoughts, My thoughts are all over
the place when it comes to reparations. You have as much as time. Because I firmly believe that some sort of um, some sort of payment should be made to African American descendants who were captive and enslaved and did all the work to develop this country. Some sort what that is, I'm not really sure. Does it have to be monetary, I'm not sure. Does it
have to be something else? Yes, Well, if you've acknowledged and the country has acknowledged and apologized for slavery, then in that essence, you then are obliged to do something to assist those who were put at a disadvantage because of that, and the reason I say that is because slavery ended, blacks continued to work, and yes, they were paid in many instances after slavery, and I'm talking about way long after slavery, they were given salaries.
However, as we know, in many instances even today, black folks are not paid at the same rate as white men. So that because of slave avery, because of the fact whites owned blacks, even today there is the decisive disadvantage two blacks are because because of that, in other words, that there is something to be said pertaining to those who have an advantage, which are white people, and those who are put at a disadvantage in many,
many different ways, which are black people. Even when it comes to voting, you know, no white person has any obstacles placed in their way to cast their ballot about anything that can't be said pertaining to people of color as far as voting is concerned, which our democracy is based upon. You instos
are perfect. Again, another perfect segue into a term a specter. If you will have a term that does you hear all the time, and I'm not sure people understand, would you help us to understand, Jim Crowe, where does it come from? What does it mean? You hear it often again that it's reared as ugly head. I'm not sure people actually understand what Jim Crow is. Can you explain it to us and what it means to
to a black man. Jim Crow is the second cousin of slavery. Jim Crow are people who think they are superior two people of color, specifically, Jim Crowe is a method of holding someone down and not allowing them to thrive. Now, there are those that will say, but African Americans have made a lot of of m they have been advanced a lot in manimented different ways. That's true in some instances, but that does not mean that they have
the same privileges as though as white people. There are certain privileges that go along with whites that whites believed they have and therefore they receive. Well, give us an example of if you if you can, if you will Jim Crow in practice today in today's society. Again, you hear it all the time. Can you give us a practical example of how Jim Crowe is practiced
anywhere in the country. Oh, too many. If you look, I'll say, if you look at many of your boards and committees within the towns throughout Rockland and throughout the country, and most instances there they are headed.
And they're also only white males on those boards. Now they will allow some white females to come on there, but they don't even Jim Crowe are those people that go in those boardrooms, look around down and everybody in that room looks like them, and nobody says, wait, where are the people of color? That's Jim Crow. So in other words, they're saying it's it's not necessarily illegal for blacks to be there, they're just not welcome there and
they're not there. In other words, it's a system that perpetuates itself. We didn't say it couldn't come. Of course, you're not welcome here, but we didn't say it didn't come. So it's it's sort of like done if you will under the table. Is that right? I'll give you an example. I've been in this business for almost sixty years of dealing with racism
and discrimination and trying to ensure that people are treated fairly. Only this in the past month, for the first time, did I receive a call from a Caucasian male asking me, is there a reason that people of color, specifically black people are not in the American Legion. Do they have their own group instead of which, no, they do not, is the answer.
And what my response to him is, is there a reason that the American Legion has not reached out to blacks and other people of color to secure them coming into their organization In most instances, when you do not see anyone of color, then that means in most instances, it will indicate that people of color field that you don't want them, or they don't or they're not welcome. Just fascinating, and it's just perfectly segues into my next question, Affirmative
action. Again another hotly debated with good valid points. I said, I believe it might have been sixty minutes on CBS at a very interesting point because it's being challenged in many instances. It was challenged it hard in many other top schools, and now it's a conservative Supreme Court having fully heard that all the cases but are moving in that way. And the gentleman who's fighting against it again it makes a good solid point and has had to withstand calls calling
him a racist, et cetera. But if you hear his argument, it's a legitimate argument. As they used an accounterbalance an African American college professor who then argued for affirmative action and the importance of creating, as you were saying, in an environment where minorities are comfortable in being there. But that's their point of view. I need to hear yours. What are your feelings on affirmative action? Please, Well, my point of view is not too far
from that gentleman's point of view. I think the purpose of affirmative action was to assist and develop equality. That was the purpose to provide an equalness in this country. I do not believe that at this stage in life and in this country, that we can say that all things are equal. Affirmative action was one of the ways to be able to ensure that. When we had affirmative action, and I mean real affirmative action, they they they've kind of
dismantled it. However, it really hasn't gone away. But what they took away was any reporting system. So therefore you have no way of knowing whether you have people of color in positions or not other than in your little small world that you live in. So affirmative action gave an advantage many people in African Americans would not be in the position that they're in. It's professionally, especially if it was not for affirmative action. And I'll tell you what happened.
I worked at Luxworth Village in the sixties. There was not one person of color in the sixties and administration. There was not one person of color on mid level supervision incomes affirmative action when I left, when I transferred from one facility to another. When I left Luxworth, there were people of color. And administration there were people of color. And human resources there were people of color and mid level supervisory positions tent passed ten years past when they eliminated
affirmative action. I don't even know if it's been ten years. There are now no people of color in administration, very few people on the mid level. So you tell me whether affirmative action is needed. When they developed committees and boards because of affirmative action, they were required to ensure that people of color were on boards and committees. Once that didn't there was no longer that requirement. It reverted back to what it was where I'm sorry to cut you
up, please continue. I mean, and so I think it speaks for itself. Now there are can you say that there's been no everything went back. Now, I won't say everything went back, however, the majority of those things did and no longer was because no one was concerned any longer as
to whether people of color were placed in those positions or not. And the disadvantage is to everybody because now you don't get the view and the opinion of of a segment of the population that you do expect to pay taxes, and that you do you claim that you serve. But see that's that old master syndrome where I am serving the people, but I'm doing what I want to do. As far as the people, I'm not going to ask the people what they want. I'm just presuming to know what they need and want.
For argument's sake, in this particular case, what would you say to someone who says, well, no one is stopping you. The the African American community is not involving itself. No one says they can't, They're just not interested in in those positions. What would you say to someone who says sometimes, I'd say, how would you know that if you have not gone out and try attempted to secure people of African descent or Hispanic descent. If you
have not made the attempt to ask and secure them to come in. How would you know that they don't want to do it? And the other piece of it is, in most instances, these committees and boards, most people don't know when their openings or when they're not. No one knows. So therefore that but see that's about design also because if I don't know that there's an opening, I don't how would I know to come and ask you about it? You're listening to being Frank, where the only way to be is
Frank. I'm your host, Frank Labono, and my special guest receiving with them more intelligent conversation is n double ACP Regional Director Wilburt Aldridge. I think it's necessary, mister Audre. We have to talk about violence in the minority community, particularly gun violence. And I did a little research, and I have the statistics, and let me just say that they're staggering at the effect that gun violence is happening, particularly in the black communities. Why, what
is driving it? And then ultimately what can we do about it? Again, I could read the statistics, believe me, they're they're just staggering in comparison once again to whites. And white communities. It's just against the great majority of gun violence is with black people, of violating other black people. So what's happening there and what can we do about it? Listen, I can give you some answers. But if I had the magic bullet for that, we'd be I'd be, I would be wealthy, and it would be
all over. I don't have that. I can certainly give you some of my thoughts pertaining to it. I will equate the gun violence in the African American community the same as when the drugs first started coming into this country. Where was it? Where were they deposited in the African American community. But it wasn't African Americans that went out and got the j brought them into you. But that's where they were pocketed. Okay. Now the same as with
the guns. The guns are coming and they're using them because somebody is supplaying the to them. I don't know of any African Americans other than OPRAH that would have enough money to go out and purchase enough guns to distribute within the African American community to create this kind of um environment. But the use of those things are really stemming from the lack of resources for many of the people
that live in those communities. It is not you don't you don't find You may hear of it on occasion and in communities in the suburb, but not often, you know, not in the same manner, and certainly not to the same extent. What can be done about it? One is we could really, just like we've had the war on drugs, we need a war on weapons. And one of those things would be if Congress would set up
some rules, some laws in which these gun manufacturers could not produce. There is no one that needs an AK what seven whatever the number is rifle in this there's no read, no reded for it. The only ones that should have the availability that are people in the armed forces. But and they don't, and they won't even now in this instance. They won't even do it for their own people. If you look at the number of mass shootings in this country, very few of them, if any, have been committed by
African Americans or people of cold It's an interesting phenomenon. Yes, it is. Until research. We may shoot at each other and in the process injure some people or kill some people, which is if I might jump in because they think it's an important point here that if if the and we are shocked by the by the mass shootings, particularly in schools, done by by whites, and we just talked about this statistically supports our argument there. But but
I see it all. If the same kind of carnage that's happening in the black communities was what's happening in the white community, don't you think a lot more would be be being done to control the violence and the and the guns and the and the amount and the power that are available. To me, it's almost as if they're saying, you know, the NRA, and as long as you keep in the black community, just keep will keep supplying all the guns you want, they're out there. If that were the case in
the white community, I can't imagine it being the same your thought. If you remember, the war on drugs didn't begin until drugs started filtering into the white community and they starting to be white overdoses by white people within the white community, and then there was the war on drugs. Now, I'm not gonna say that that war on drugs was successful because I don't believe it was, but there was still an attempt made. Yes, you're right, No,
it won't. It probably won't do anything until until such time as that starts happening on a regular individual kind of basis rather than just the mass shootings. But it is amazing to me that other folks can't see it. I am not the dimnest bub on the block, but I'm also not the brightest bulb on the block. So those people that are in Congress are supposed to be intelligent. For people who are there to be able to use some foresight
and try and get ahead of this. But if you're not willing, if you're running, look, that's why I believe there needs to be more reformed as far as um Uh running for office. If you're taking money from gun lobbyists, obviously you're not going to be able to vote without being biased, and you're going to protect that. So there should be something forbidding the money
coming. If it's not money gifts, you know, whatever it is that you're getting u from any in any of the gun manufacturers, there should be something that should just be outlawed, because that's that's absolutely ridiculous. The fault, the fault of that lies there now. And you know, there's more than one way to commit genocide. So if I'm not there for every black person I'm knocking off, that's a vote that I don't have to worry about.
Well, interesting point, um, and and what's your thoughts? Recently the poet laureate to be a beautiful young woman Amanda Gorman and had her poem band in Florida. Um. A single parent complained and uh and had the poem band. Her response I thought was beautiful your thoughts on that? And what's happening there? This country has gone crazy when it comes to a lot of things. It's freedom. I guess freedom of speech is only reserved for
some people, not everybody. But if then there's another group that banned. There's trying to ban the Bible, you know, because of violence in the Bible. There's another group they where where do when did we start banning any kind of material? Are we so afraid of other people's philosophy that ours won't stand up against it? We? There was they were the group in the NAACP. There was a school districts tried Northromlin who wanted to bring in an
activists. What's your name Angela Davis? Yes, Angela Davis. The story the district went ballistic, so they had to pull back. Well, the young it was young people who wanted her, So the NAACP NIAT picked it up and brought Angela Davis. Are we so afraid of someone else's philosophy being told that our philosophy is it's not good enough? I believe our democracy, belief in democracy can stand up against anything. I just don't see that one
individual's philosophy is. But we My point is we are not. We have gotten to the point that we are so afraid. That's why we don't talk. We want to talk about black district. That's why we don't want to talk about gays LGBT, That's why we don't want everybody. The only reason I can think of is fearful of what it's going to do to our young people. Well, if you've raised your child and tort your child, I
would hope that training could stand up against anything. But that's you want a reason, that's the reason, because it's all out of fear, fear of what. I'm not really sure truly intelligent conversation this evening with Regional director for the n double ACP, Wilbert Aldridge. This is being frank. We're the only way to be as Frank. As they said, truly intelligent conversation. I'm your host, Frank Labona will be back with more right after these brief
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your host, Frank Lebarno. Tonight's more intelligent conversation with our guests NACP Regional Director Wilbert Aldridge, as I said, truly intelligent conversation. Remember, you've got a fresh show from us every week beginning on Thursday night, and you can catch us wherever you get your favorite podcasts and listen to us anytime because all of our programs are archived. All right, let's get back to our
intelligent conversation, mister Older. You made a very good point, I thought just before the break too, talking about how things are connected where we lose rights in one area, first it maybe African Americans, people of color, then it's LGBT, etc. With that in mind and the connection, if
you will, towards a truly equitable society. What you're feeling towards the migrants and how they've been handled in general in the country, but also in particular killer here in Rockland County as a state of emergency was declared preventing them from coming to a place in the county. It has been since overturned by a
state court and it's still being argued. But but I'd like to know what you're feeling is, especially from an organization like like yours, which is really there to help people, all people what are your feelings, all right? My feelings are my feelings different than the organization. The NAACP took no stance on this at all, and the reason for that being that we are firm. We are a firm believer in things. You need a plan. You
know, when you do things haphazardally, people get hurt. And while we firmly believe in the equal rights of every citizen, we're talking about people who are not citizens and versus the rights of people who are. In some instances, my concern is that there was never a plan. New York City signed an agreement and established themselves as a sanctuary city, but that's all they did. They didn't do anything in preparation for the possibility of people coming, and
that's where the size and neither did the federal government. And therein lies where poyer of the problem lies. And these poor individuals have been caught in the middle of this. My thing, my feeling is, since they're here, the person to blame for most of this would be the governor from Texas, because he shifted those people out knowing that no one was going to be prepared
for the number of people that ahead. The other things very interesting is Initially when he started sending them out, he only sent them to cities where they were black mayors. Interesting, yes, yes, now that you mentioned it, that's true, that's fact, but we don't have it. But there's no racism here here, okay now, But once they're there, Mayor Adams then gets punished or criticized because these people are here and he's trying to help.
What was he supposed to do? What alternative did he have to sending them to Rockland, Orange or wherever? Some of them he didn't put them all in the buses, in all of them here. He was trying to just spread it out so that the people would have a place to sleep, eat, bathe and was going to pay for it. So are we are we saying that there was nothing. Let me give you an example, and
this is is real simplistic. When when they had the war over in um, the war started in Ukraine, people were flown into America from you from Ukraine and people took them in. Now that's immigrants coming in, right. No one said that they didn't belong here now and they did not come in
through the normal channels. So now when it's people of color who are coming in, all of a sudden, you don't belong here, and your your criminals and and rapists and all kinds of labels were placed upon these people who probably have done none of that, certainly the majority of madden. So what's the difference. Where where is the difference? I don't I don't know where
the difference is other than color. Well, I was gonna say you were like both no and being a descendants of dark people Sicilian immigrants who had their own share of prejudice because they were among the dark races. It always seems to be the darker races that bear the brunt of racism in this country. And I don't understand. I mean, but I frank, But then I go back, and this is not part of what you were saying. But now I'm gonna throw it. You brought it up. I'm gonna throw it
back at you. Those same dark folks that came here and suffered your folks, right, then turn and discriminate against people of cold right, It's happened to sure, But what is it about human nature that makes us say, okay, we have to discriminate against somebody, somebody has to be lower than us. That that I mean? You see the casts in the system in India where there it's it's it's not necessarily unique just to us or the tribal system. Do you belong to our tribe? If you don't, we don't
want you, We don't like certainly part of the human experience. But it's always been interesting to me how certainly the darker your skin is, the more you seem to be punished or it's just especially since all people originate from black people. It's great when you stop and you think about it makes your it's been. But I'll say that the same as within within the African American community,
there are people. The darker you are, it's not as as prevalent as some and some other communities, such as when you mentioned the Indian community, but the lighter you are, so it used to be the quote unquote better. Those were those even doing slavery, the people that were working in the big house where the light skinned African Americans, the dark sk in African
Americans were relegated to the field. So somewhere in there there is this human nature that wants to somebody has to be better than someone else, and therefore the advantage is given to certain people and not to others, Are we heading in the right direction? I mean we certainly advances have been made, but it seems every step forward at least a step and a half of not two steps backward. It seems that way. What are your thoughts? Are we
going in the right direction? We're going in the right direction because there's there's room for change and I and there has been change, now, how how a change is slow and people are certainly very Change is not something that most people adapt to instantaneously, you know, So that's it. I think the years of forty five in the office put us back twenty years and attitudes pertaining
to individuals and people don't realize that, you know. I was I sit on a zoning board and there was a community that was trying to open a synagogue. And the comments that were made, the first thing out of the people's mouth when they came to talk about it was I'm not prejudiced, But now what does that tell you? And the comments that were made were the same comments and types of comments that were made when blacks were moving into all
white neighborhoods. I don't know if they remember it, but I distinctly remember. I've been here for all that, so I remember every bit of it. Every comment that was made was like a pen and sticking somewhere on my arms or somewhere because it was the exact same thing. But do not print of this. Yeah, some of my best friends are another catch, some of my best friends are but you know, yeah, But to answer your question, yes, I think we're moving in the right direction. I think
it's hard to steer the ship. It's harder to steer the ship in that direction. But it's moving and those folks are going to have to get used to the fact that it's moving and adapt to the changes that are coming. Well, you mentioned forty five a former president to Trump, and since you did, we might as well say it here now. And I always think of the of the quote from Martin Luther King of the art of justice is long, and sometimes it takes a while to get to the end of it.
But we were just informed that former President Trump has been criminally indicted and must appear in front of a federal grand jury. I believe it's tomorrow. We're at some point this week, and of course, as I mentioned, we're taping on the eighth of June. So anyway, a little breaking news at the same time, so it all kind of fits fits together. I'm sharing no tears. Yeah, you and I both that wasn't necessarily the topic, but uh, we're okay, you know, you know. Really again
a topic for another day. But for me, it's just no one is above the law. It's so important as a tenant of this country that no one, no one is above the law. And it's it's finally good to say that maybe we're actually living up to one of our deals, not just talking. Remember we talked, you know, the mansapace and proscamation is just words if you don't act upon them. You know, no one is above the law, just words if we don't treat it as such. So it's
great. I want to thank you so much, Will but Aldrich for for your intelligent conversation. This was just brill and I really enjoyed it. Well, thank you for being here. I always enjoy coming. That's why I've never told, you know, because it's really a time for me to get out some of the stuff that I mean, not say necessarily somewhere else, but this is a chance to get it out, and talking, frankly, is what I like to do as long as truthful. Well, that has
to be one of the best commercials ever. Thank you so much, because that's really what it is about. I want people to come here and they want them to be Frank too, So thank you so much, mister Oldridge. You will always be welcome here on Being Frank. Thank you, and of course thanks to our engineer, believe mailman, mister Neil Richter. He's always driving the bus for us at its out well and like many mistakes, so we appreciate that. And of course special thanks to our listeners who take
the time to give us a voice in their lives. Remember we offer a fresh topic every week and you can atch us wherever and whenever you get your favorite podcasts. Remember that includes Apple, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Spreaker and all the others. You can also check us out on the Hudson River Radio Facebook page. Like us and give us a comment. It's public so it's easy to do. We also ask you that you consider sharing Being Frank with others,
especially if you like the programs. And as my tradition, I'd like to leave you with two last little nuggets. One is from the poet laureate Amanda Gorman, who says there is always late if we're brave enough to see it, if only we're brave enough to be in good words to live by. That's some really great music. John Selley on vocals and Peter Danish does all the instruments. It's it's terrific song, very appropriate for our show tonight. It's called the Age of Outrage. I'm your host, Frank Labono.
This has been being Frank. We're the only way to be is Frank. Thanks again for listening. We'll catch you next week, certainly, hope. So these are the times s where true long the d These are the days where facts no longer comes beyond listen to voices, sweet greenwell and all the let's get shut down the limit, India, your fabriage. You can't just keep stirring apart. You're in us, so you're against us, one of us, so you're not You can do the right thing. Ninety nine times
out of the heart tries. But the one time is sa is the one will judge you by someone so much smarter than me, saying you got to be its heart to hate when it seems to me we've had a very very good teacher. I just prayed to God it's not too late. We're living in the age and by rage and came on this case in the heart you're
either so your text us. You're in the water so you're not. You can take the right thing nighty nine times under heart dre tries, but for long time you slip is the water whe judge you by get this crazy? Why did we let so far? When did we get so frazy? You take a look given me to you by rage people News keep starring the you'll be the way your against us. You can do the right thing ninety nine times tries Liver is the one real judge by judge By This is Hudson River Radio dot com. Rais