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Hello everyone, and welcome to being Frank. We're the only way to be is Frank. I'm your host, Frank Lebono, and I'd like to thank you for joining us on what we like to call the Intelligent Conversation Podcast, where no conversation is out of bounds in all points of view are welcome. As you know, we record live to tape. I give you the date so you have some relevance and context. It is the fourth of August, our first
program for the month of August. You know, we think of cancel culture as a modern phenomenon, but in fact it's been around for a very long time and affected artists as diverse as Wagner, Stravinsky, Michael Jackson, John Lennon and many others. Of course, with the changes brought on by the miracle that is the Internet, today's reactions can be seen as more immediate, universal, and particularly visceral. So how do we separate the art we love and the
artist we have come to disrespect? And should we?
Well?
As times has some intelligent conversation on the subject with one of our favorite guests here on Being Frank. He's a composer, musician, educator, and jazz historian. Welcome back to Being Frank, Eric de Vito.
How's it going, Frank, Thanks for having me back. Always a pleasure to be here on your paddast and.
It's always a pleasure to have you Eric. Your shows are always so intelligent. You do your research and help me out with mine as well, and I think people really appreciate that. We've always gotten very good feedback for your performances, and I'm sure we will with this one because it's another interesting topic, which brings me to my first question is you know, we spoke of this weeks ago in timing wise, et cetera. We had to kind
of put it off till today. But what gave to the original germ of the idea that this was a topic worth talking about?
Yeah, so cancel culture. You know, obviously it's a hot topic. It's a I feel like it's very you know, like you mentioned in your in your intro, it's not something that's totally new to the current climate, but I feel like it's very, very hot right now and it's used
very often. I find it sometimes, you know, it's like the equivalent of a boycott, I feel like, but towards individuals or their art, and I find my views on it mixed often, you know, I think as a musician and an artist, I'm inherently against it because I feel I always like to put art, you know, the art that someone creates is is kind of transcendent of who they are as a person. But it's very hard to
separate the person, you know. I think that in the current climate of social media where and celebrity obsessiveness, it's more it's more I don't know if I want to say favorable, but it's kind of more common in this kind of culture where we're so interested in the personal lives of people, whereas back you know, historically we probably wouldn't have known or know quite as much about that person as you know, the Internet and social media lets
us now. But I also think, you know, there's a historical context that we sometimes, you know, struggle with where we want to hold somebody accountable for something that maybe was not viewed quite in the same light today as when it might have happened, and so that creates some differences too, right, like certain artists today who you know,
I know we're going to get into. But just an example, looking at you know, everybody, I'm sure as following the P. Diddy trial that has to exist today, so we have a very different view on it. Whereas had that happened during Wagner's time, it might have not been we might not judge it the same today. But some people want to do that, and so I think it creates a lot of controversy and a lot of different opinions. And
I find myself going back and forth on it. And I was actually having a conversation with my wife last night. I always kind of go over our podcast with her over a glass of wine, and I found my you know, she was making some I always ask her to be like the Devil's advocate about it, and she was like making some good points, and I was like, you know what, that's a good point, I wonder maybe. So I find that my views on it are kind of frequently shifting and are less concrete. I find it to be a
little more situational. But the one thing I always agree on is people are fallible, right, nobody's infallible, and people create art and I hope that continues right with the modern AI. So you know, that's a whole different rabbit hole we could do another show on. But I always try to remind myself that people are not perfect, they're fallible, and so if we're going to judge their art on that, then you're always gonna find there's always going to be
something we don't like. But as an artist, I try to let somebody's arts, you know, rise above who they were as a person. And that's my own belief. But I'm sure that there is if I sit and examine it long enough, I might find some situations where I might have trouble removing the art from the artist, depending on the situation and how personal it might be to me. So that's kind of where I am on I think it's a really great topic and I think there's a lot of opinions on it, and I think it's good
to explore it because opinions change. I don't want to have a concrete opinion on it. I think that my mind can be changed a lot, and when different things are brought to light, well.
You know, that's why we call it intelligent conversation. Eric, And seriously, I'm not being trite. That's what we want to have and that's what we're having now. As you mentioned, the worthy time, and we're going to develop a lot of the themes that you mentioned, you know, the connection between artists and art and the changing technology, particularly the Internet. As I mentioned, things happened so quickly, and there's an anonymity of it all which can make people more vicious
and more visceral. We'll develop those themes. But before that, you mentioned a little bit of historic context. Again, we think of it modern terms again, because twenty four hour news cycle, et cetera, were barraged with information quite frankly all the time. That wasn't necessarily the case. However, there was still they may have called it that cancel culture. There is a kind of a historic timeline of it.
If you could give us a little bit of context, like you mentioned Wagner and Stravinsky, tell us a little bit about you know, some of the people from the early part of the twentieth and nineteenth centuries.
Yeah, you know, I think Wagner is one of the most famous famous examples because he was an open anti Semite, you know, and he had ideological ties to Nazi Germany. You know, and if you ask any musician you know, who's one of the greatest German opera composers is Wagner? You know, so his music is undeniably historically significant and great.
You know. Now if you decide so, then the question becomes like, do we celebrate his music or because he was you know, an anti Semite and openly uh, you know, tied to Nazi Germany, do we then not support that? Do we? And you know, and then it depends how you look at it. Me personally, I can't all of a sudden convince myself that Wagner's music is now no longer good because I have to ask myself, does who he was as a person change how his music touches me and makes me feel?
To me?
Fair question? And that's and that's a fair question.
But you know, maybe somebody who was more affected, you know, maybe somebody who was part of the Holocaust or had a relative. Maybe it's not that they Maybe it's not so much the way I'm looking at that, they don't they don't acknowledge the music's great, but they can't bring themselves to connect with somebody. And I get that, you know, And I think I think I had a little more trouble relating to that point of it, because I always used to say, like, like, you know, if you like
their music once, how could you not like? But I do understand that maybe that there's more of a personal connection there. It could just be harder from a moral you know thing. But you know, whatever your feeling's on it, Wagner's operas are historically significant. There's some of the greatest operas. They're some of the most complex operas. Of course. I mean some people find them exhausting, you know, in terms of his opera cycles, but they're you know, a standard,
and they are so important. So my whole issue is, whatever your views on Wagner are. I mean, obviously that's terrible that he was in an open antisemi Like, no, I don't think anybody's condoning that. But I'm not sure i'd want to array historically what he did. I'm not sure i'd want to, you know, do the equivalent of tearing down a statue of his music, because I think that's not I'm not sure that's doing the world and he favors. I think it's helping people not feel like that,
you know. I always say to people you can just not listen to it. If you don't enjoy it, don't listen to it. There's plenty and I get that. I'm personally where I'm at in the point of my life right now. I'm not in favor of historically erasing anything, even things that are are you know, looked at as being you know, inequitable, or things that caused harm. To me, just the fact that they're part of history is worth studying, you know, whether it's worth studying and then learning why
the person associated with that was a problem. But to erase it, to me, I'm just not in favor of that. I know some people are, and I don't, you know, and maybe my mind might change on that.
Well did you see it? I might just jump in because I think it's a really salient point right right here, And it was a question I had for further down in our conversation, but it's relative now. So in other words, do you see it as another form of censorship? Is that a fair analogy?
I think so. I think it becomes a cultural pressure to censor. I mean, you know, the bottom line is, how do you you know when you want to cancel something? What do you do? Right? Do you want it to become unavailable. I'm not sure people are, you know, you know, if it becomes unpopular, then you know, it's a harder time now because we're not dealing with record labels and things. You know, everybody everything's streaming, so it's a lot easier to kind of put things out there. But let's take
it like we're on a radio station right now. Let's go back a decade or two when everything came through the radio, right for the most part, it was very easy. If there was a political pressure to tell the radio station would just be told, hey, our spot, we're going to lose our sponsors, we're not playing this person's music, right, and that could kind of you know, you can still go out and buy their CDs and stuff maybe, but that really put a pressure on it. Whereas today, I
don't think that's so easy. You know, now it's people almost it's like a boycott, you know. And I equated I was saying this to my wife, did they I equate it to like when people boycotted bud Light a couple of years ago. You know, if you don't if you like bud Light, you're not going to pretend you don't like it anymore. You might not agree with the message of the company, but you're not going to all of a sudden be like bud Light doesn't taste good
to me anymore. So I could never decide that Wagner doesn't sound good and it doesn't move me. So but maybe if these people have an issue and they want to boycott the product, then okay, And then of course that comes with That's where social media takes a big part, is now where you might have quietly boycotted it. And by the way, that's the kind of when I am against something, I quietly do it myself. I don't try to pressure other people to do it, because they need
to make their own decisions. But I think a big part of cante culture is trying to get people on your team, and I think that ties into social media and insecurity and all this other stuff that I have a problem with social media, which is why I'm kind
of not on and so much anymore. But to me, I wouldn't like, you know, maybe I want to inform people like, hey, did you know not Wagner was an anti sound Sure, I think everybody should know that information, But I'm not going to go around and tell people what I think they should listen to or what beer they should drink. I don't think that's my place, and I don't think that, you know, I think that creates
a lot of polarization and division. And the bottom line is, you know, those companies don't really care about your views. All they care about is their dollars. And so to me, it's not authentic. Anyways, when when when they lose, drop the sponsor whatever, they're not really doing that because they believe in whatever you're trying to do. They just they just want your money back, so they're going to do it. So to me, it's inauthentic.
Anyways, I want to talk a little bit more about the involvement of social media because that has changed everything in so many ways, and including here. But you mentioned and because there are others, and you're you're a jazz historian, so let's get in your wheelhouse. Miles Davis. Yeah, so Miles is a classic. We give us a little more detail about that situation.
Sure, you know, Miles is a great example because he wasn't shy about his view. You know, he was an extreme misogynist. He's abusive towards women. You know, he had he had a lot of issues in his own life that he took out in his you know, his relationships with other people. But he was known as being you know, abusive person obviously, you know, substance abuse issues, but very misogynistic and that also you know, pretty racist, you know, in terms of that was not really a fan of
white you know, white people at all. Obviously, he had his own reasons for the racism he he encountered and dealt with or perceived. But you know, there are some people that think Miles Davis is a terrible person. You know, I didn't know him personally, but I've done a lot of reading on him and study on him, and I pretty much agree. I don't think he was the nicest person. I don't disagree with any of those things about him. I am so I grew up and learned jazz through
Miles Davis's music. I'm so interconnected with it, and I learned about that music through him, maybe more than anybody else through him music. So I can never really, I could never really stop, you know, appreciating his music. I just acknowledge that he was an a hole, you know, in many people's views, and that I probably wouldn't like him as a person. But to me, I'm I'm able to totally separate it from his art. But that's me.
Yeah, And it's funny. I was gonna jump in because that was one of my questions when that was revealed to you. And I'm assuming when you first listen to someone's that the first thing you gravitate towards what are they like as a person, what's their personality? Generally that comes a little bit later on as you delve more into their music and fair enough into their lives as you get more interested. But I was wondering, and it kind of answered it, but you can develop it a
little bit more upon learning that. Did you listen for it in your music at or did you hear anything that kind of changed your perception?
Well, yes and no. So and this was another great point that came up when I was having my kind of pre show conversation with my wife. You know, she said to me, well, don't you doesn't knowing about the artist's life. Isn't that an integral part of appreciating the art? And I'm thinking, yeah, absolutely, you know, like this's the reason we study composers, and the more you know about their life and their struggles, the more you appreciate the
art they did. So it's kind of hard because it's like also knowing, you know, it makes me think that the music that these people produced. You know, let's take Miles Davis, he had to be the person he was to make that music, whether it was a you know, he was dealing with certain issues that made him become that way, and then the result artistically was this music. So we can't deny or separate that. And yes, I think knowing about that is more important to appreciating the art, right, So, yes,
I want to know. As I found more of those things out, I became, I found Miles Davis more interesting as a person. You know. That doesn't mean I condone any of his behavior or anything, but I just never felt like it was my place or any of our places to you know, publicly judge him on that. And to me, what a loss. If I had knew that first maybe and then decided or I was of the you know, persuasion that well, now I'm not gonna explore his art because I don't like him as a person.
To me, that would be a tremendous loss. I mean, have greatly affected my life in terms of, you know, learning about jazz music. But then I think about all other people that do that and what they might be missing out on. But you know, listen, that's me. And maybe somebody can't bring themselves to you know, maybe somebody was a victim of abuse or something and they can't bring themselves to listen to or appreciate the art of
somebody who did. And I get that, and I respect that, But I think that we all should know as much as we can about the composers and the artists that we listen to, because it only enhances and deepens our
appreciation from the art. Now, whether or not we need to know that right away, maybe maybe the litmus test is listen to something, first, decide if you like it, if it touches you in any way, and then decide would you still feel the same way knowing X, Y and Z. Maybe that's a better way to go about it. What I'm not a fan of is I feel like sometimes in today's modern cancel culture, we are actually like dishonest with ourselves. We actually convince ourselves that we don't
like something. And I feel like, is it that you don't like it or is it that you are afraid people are gonna think that you support the behavior of this person, are you you know, like, if Miles Davis or Wagner was a chef and made an amazing meal, would you pretend that it didn't taste good? Would it really stop tasting good to you? Or is it more of a moral thing you just can't bring yourself to eat it? And to me, those are two different things.
Okay, you know interesting, Well, let's you mentioned also, and you cannot deny how much of the Internet it's affected things.
Yeah, it's terrible.
We don't know if that's.
In talk coming. I'm turning into my old man mode. Like my kids and my wife are always like stopping it's it's terrible, like and like the internet's great, and guess what, it's terrible. It's terrible since I've like scaled back on it in terms of, you know, the internet is great for doing research and connecting to people. But the social media thing, man, it's terrible. And we're all going to convince ourselves, those of us that have jobs
in it. It's useful, but it's terrible. It's definitely created way more terribleness whatever the right phrase for that is than goodness. In my opinion, and I think you just see that through people use it as it means to like people. If people want to boycott something, they need validation that everybody feels the same way they do, and so they get that validation through social media, and it's the algorithms are there to make sure they connect with
people who agree with them. So it's fake anyways. So man, you know, I don't want to bore your listeners with that, but I got a huge problem with all that, and I just think it makes it makes everything so unauthentic. It brings things to light. It pretends to make such a national spectacle that is something that it's not. It connects people in this vacuum and this echo chamber where they think that their opinions are so universal, but they're not. Like,
I just took a road trip to the Midwest. Man. It was a little off topic, and you know, if I sat home all the time on social media, I would think that everybody agreed with my opinions in the world, and because I have so much people and but I just went to the Midwest, and like, dude, it's totally different. People are totally different, and they're not very much like a lot of us. You know, a lot of people in New York are, and that's cool. They shouldn't be.
But if you, if you don't like get off social media and go like connect with people, you just are like fed this lie where you're just connected with people that are like pro you know, there's an algorithm to make you think that that is the majority of what's happening. So I think it's really bad for free, free thought and stuff. But anyways, that's that's my rant on that.
Well, it's in a roundabout way. It's relative to the question that I have, and because it feeds the cult of celebrity, yeah, I mean you can know just about everything about everybody just about instantly, and that seems to be very important to people. Do you think that helps to produce this culture of if I don't like you, you've got to be gone. In other words, and yeah, man, that's.
It right there. You just should put that on a T shirt. If I don't like it, it's gotta be gone. That to me, that's something like my five year old daughter thinks, and we've become like why do adults think that way? I think that's a really like arrested development. Insecure view man, like, Okay, don't like something, have enough self worth that you can still associate and be friends
with people that might not see it that way. Why does everybody have to be on your team and in your camp for you to feel okay about your opinions? I think that's just like a product of broken society, man, People that just have a problem with their own self worth and so they need that validation and they don't even get it in reality. They get it on social media, where they just get to seek out those that might not be the majority of people that they work and
live with. They're just like finding these groups of people online to agree with that. I think that's like dangerous man.
You know, we've talked a lot about the consumer. What about the producers, if you will, the artists themselves. What responsibility do they have, if any, to fostering a positive social climate? Is I guess if that's not in their wheelhouse? Is that not? In other words, do they bear any
responsibility for their message? Should they? Is it reasonable for them to expect, For example, if I do a controversial show, it's reasonable for me to expect not everybody's going to like it, and some people are going to be downright, pod, But I have to be prepared to accept that. So you know, what's an artist's responsibility? Then excuse me with that in mind, with the idea that if they put controversial things out, it's going to produce a visceral reaction.
Yeah, well so it's a really good question, right. I think the fact that we've become so connected to celebrity culture makes it more difficult. Right, there's no celebrities don't really have privacy as much as you know, and we know too much about people, so it's like we gotta let time. We don't get let time kind of erase some of that, you know. I think about like Michael Jackson, Right, Michael Jackson is, let's talk about controversy. He was going
through this cancel culture stuff back in the nineties. Man, you don't remember that. But the thing is, we didn't have the Internet, and people were outrage. He was the butt of every late night talk show almost to a point where it was you almost think it like they
were condoning it. Right. It was like, ah, let's make a joke about Michael Jackson and little kids, right, And you didn't really see anybody stop listening it was more about, oh, okay, are we going to acknowledge this, because that in itself was like a big deal back then we're gonna acknowledge this really bad thing. You know, some people condoned it because of how Michael Jackson was raised and the issues he went through and his dad and all that, and
that's fair enough. But there's nobody that's gonna agree. And then you know, some people will say, oh, you know, he was acquitted and this never happened, and blah blah blah. But I think the public opinion kind of I think it took time. You know, enough time has passed that people made their decisions either made peace with it, decided no, And enough time has passed that Michael Jackson's artistic legacy, in my opinion, has outweighed the negative effects of his
social personal behavior. I think that just takes time. I think that, and you know, I'm looking at current people like r Kelly, which isn't that current anymore. For P Diddy is like the big one right now. I don't know if what they did is going to to be able to be uh overlooked the same way. I know that right now we're too close to it because it's current, So I think you're gonna have to give it a generation to see, like like the next generation to people.
They won't really know who these artists were personally, so that might not be something that they're bothered with. You know, my wife had made a point. She works, you know, she's a nurse, and a lot of the young nurses that she's in charge of they don't know much about Michael Jackson. They have no idea about his controversial past. And that's only like a generation later. You know. I'm
talking about people that are like in their twenties. So I think certain things because they're happening right now, they make it too hard for us to kind of condone. But I think you gotta see what's gonna happen to generation from now, and are these musicians music gonna be great enough to withstand the taper like Michael jack brought hands down. Michael Jackson's Music's never going away. It's too good. Sorry, But is R Kelly and P Diddy? I don't know.
That's not my wheelhouse. So I'm not the best expert personally. I don't know, but maybe I'm totally wrong. What I can tell you is a generation from now, people are gonna not you know, that their personal behavior and the thing that makes people want to boycott them, it's not gonna be as close to the forefront because it's gonna
be a generation later. So if their music happens to be good enough to withstand the test of time, I think then they'll be less focused on their behavior, just like you know, how many people know that Wagner was an anti semi ter. How many people know that, you know, Stravinsky had depictions of, you know, very culturally inappropriate things or misogynistic things. It's like history kind of erases that. A lot of that gets filtered out through history, but
when it's up close and personal. The only problem is today things are up close and are magnified times a thousand because it's so social media and celebrity obsessiveness than they were. Dirk. You know, on our last show we talked about when we were talking about who is the composer Tchaikowski and and his being a homosexual and how
taboo that was, But he wasn't. He wasn't living in a day where he had a social media page and everybody could google sim so he was able to privately live that life for the most part, whereas today that's not really an option.
You know, I want to talk about you know, and people forget, and you mentioned over the course of time in another legend, people forget it for very in what we see. And I think it's also appropriate to how morals change over time, and you hinted it that judging now with with morals from the past. Anyway, Elvis Presley another classic example. I think people forget. People were canceling him in their own kind of way because of all his quote unquote filthy dance moves and all this. So
there's stuff I think people forget that. Yeah, he was exposed to that also we think it almost kind of funny now, but it was very real and it's stay addressed that.
Yeah, very controversial. And I always teach my students, you know, we do our composers or musicians of the week, and we always do Elvis, and I always talk about, you know, his thing on the Ed Sullivan Show where the cameras would only film him from the neck up or the waist up. And I don't know if anybody watched the movie on Elvis, it's pretty brilliant. It's not one hundred
percent accurate. But it's a lot of interesting things. And they talk about just how controversial his dancing more than anything else was, especially when he performed in the South and more conservative you know places, how people really boycotted them. At the bottom line is they couldn't you know, the younger generation they were, they were really thirsty for something that was much more rebellious. You know, there's a couple issues around Elvis. He met his wife. You know, it
depends on how you look at it. He met his wife when she was fourteen years old, you know, he had you know, you could look at that, and you know, that's the whole Jerry D. Lewis thing. You could you could look at that aspect of his behavior, or you could say, well that was a different time, you know, or you can look at how you know, he was abusive and he had periods where, you know where he
dealt with domestic abuse obviously substance abuse. So you can like pick what you want to have a problem with Elvis. You know, some people get really bent out of shape about Elvis's ties to to rock and roll, right because I make it a big deal to when I teach about Elvis, I always first teach about Chuck Berry because Chuck Berry was the father of rock and roll, but most people think Elvis because he's the king of rock
and roll, and Elvis is not. You know, rock and roll came from the blues, an African American musical tradition, and I think a lot of people got bent out of shape that he sort of it sort of becomes more more affiliated with, you know, a white person. So I always kind of make make sure that my students know why Chuck Berry created the rock and roll sound,
but I don't diminish Elvis's importance. I always say, well, you know, it was Elvis's persona and charisma and also you know, the public perception that let him take this message and make it so well known, you know, just
like the radio did with Duke Ellington for jazz. But Elvis also, you know, wasn't trying to exploit the African American music that I think in some ways, you know, was happening like in the swing period where they kind of we talked about that, where they kind of tried to make jazz more white sounding and more digestible for a white audience. For you know, that that was about commercial record sales, Elvis was putting sales through the roof, but he was very connected to the African American part
of it. I mean, they really depicted that well in the movie. I thought, so, I don't think it was that so much. But people might have a problem with that. You know, people want to say, why, why why does Elvis get to be the you know, the success he was as to Chuck Berry, And you know, that's a product of the time period and the racism of culture and all of those things that. But so it's kind of like with Elvis pick you know, you pick your
pick what you want don't want to like. But I think part of Elvis's thing is he didn't really like you know, he he knew that he had issues, he knew that he was human, and he had lots of ups and downs and dark periods. And I think that's kind of what made his music.
It can make them more relatable to all of us.
We love we love stories where people falling. You know. Also it made his music go through these different shifts and periods. You know, you listen to listen to Elvis to his early blues influenced stuff, and then you listen to when he was older and you know, maybe wiser. I don't know if I want to say more mature, but he went through it. He lived a life and then you hear him the way he sings a ballad and it's like wow, and you can feel the you know,
it's like listening to holiday or something. You can feel the weight where you know, it wasn't that maybe when he was younger it was a different thing. So those things all shape his life. Now, do you know, do you need to be a misogynist. Do you need to be abusive to to do that? No? Right, like people always used to think that you need to do heroin to play be a great jazz player like Charlie Parker. Right, you don't. I think everybody agrees you don't need to
do that. But people feel like those life experiences give them perspective and that comes out in their art. So it's an interesting thing. But I don't think man if Elvis was doing his thing today, Frank, I think it would be a very very different thing. You know, Obviously we wouldn't have as much of a problem with his dancing and things like that. We're desensitized to that. But don't forget, we're desensitized to music like Stravinsky. You know,
when Stravinsky's music came out, man, people were appalled. They were throwing chairs, that's on stage, They walked out. They thought that this was like an abomination of classical European art music, the dissonances that he used. You know, then you listen to free jazz players where people were disgusted with the dissonance Ornett Coleman. But man, over time, we've just become more tolerable too of that of of that
kind of dissonance, and it's not as shocking anymore. So desensitization is not necessarily a bad thing, because you know, jazz music is built on us, you know, accepting and seeing, you know, listening to dissonant harmonies that at one point man were considered like taboo, right, you know, and even
blues and rock and roll and all that stuff. So I think, you know, sometimes these people do pave the way for tolerance, whether it's musically and artistically, or even whether it's accepting that they are not perfect but still allowing them to create their art.
Eric one Las's question will take a little break, but i'd like to get your opinion on on this before if we cancel an artists work. What message are we sending and what do we lose if we do?
It's a great question. I think if you cancel an artist's work, we're sending a message that they don't deserve to produce art, that their art is not worthy or it's not worth us experiencing. And I think that's really a little bit presumptuous. I think it's dangerous. I think that it's Remember, I'm not talking about bringing up or educating. I don't think I'm not talking about ignoring and hiding things under the rug. Right. I think everybody should know
that Wagner was an anti semi. I think everybody should know that. Like you need to know history, right, you need to be informed. But don't you know when does it become manip right? Be informed? The more you know, the better. But you should make the decision of if if that's something that you still are moved by, and think about this, man, do you want to tell somebody do you want to take what if there's a criminal who wants to write poetry, don't we want to encourage that.
Don't we want to say, hey, man, maybe it's therapeutic write beer poetry. Do you want to paint, make your art. You want to make music?
Who would use they? I mean, you see these programs now.
Correct, So why are we now deciding that these celebrities or whatever they're they should stop making art? Well, I think the big thing is because we know that when we consume it, we financially support them, right, And I think that's where it comes from. So it's not that we want their art to go away. We want to stop funding their dollars.
Right.
We're afraid that when I stream their music or I buy their record, I'm giving them in or their record label more motivation to have them continue what they're doing, which is going to lead to more them, you know, reinforcing that behavior. I'm not sure I really subscribe to that, you know, but I just think you got to go in there knowing what you know, and you've got to decide for yourself. For me, the world loses out when there's less art, you know, it does. And for me,
nothing that somebody does objectively makes their art worse. Now, subjectively it might to different people, and that's up to those people.
Interesting, Well, I'm gonna teach you what the questions to think about during the break. Okay, the current administration's attempting to limit free speech, especially those of dissent. And I want to know, do this cancer culture flourish in this type of environment? Give it some thought, or audience, give it a little bit of thought also, and we'll talk about that and a lot more when we come back.
This is Being Frank. I'm your host, Frank Lebono. My very special guest is composing musician and historian Eric Devido. Will be right back with more Being Frank right after these brief commercial messages. Don't go anywhere yet. This has been great.
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Welcome back to Being Frank, the Intelligent Conversation Podcast. Thanks for sticking with us. Of course, I'm your host, Frank Lebono, and our engineer, as always is the mailman, mister Neil Richter. You know, we bring our audience to fresh topic just about every week. Stream from Hudson River Radio located in beautiful at historic Stone Point, New York. But you can catch Being Frank anywhere you get your favorite podcasts and
post Apple, Spotify, Art Radio and all the rest. And because every Being Frank is archived, you can listen to any of our programs anytime you like. Final link to Being Frank on the Hudson River Radio Facebook page or at our website Hudson Riverradio dot com. Just click and you're there. Okay, back to our conversation with musician, composer, educator,
and jazz historian mister Eric Davido. Eric, I tease the question, which we'll get to in a moment, about the current administration's attempt to limit free speech, especially those of dissent. But before that, I know you want to make a very important point, and I would like you to have you make it. And that's you know, the fact that you are a teacher and in schools you have to be. There has to be a certain level of cultural sensitivity.
But that also at times can complicate things because of organization. What groups do you do? What groups are left out? In other words, it's it's kind of and it's certainly it's been used against liberals. Woke and wokeism, uh, and most of us are proud to be associated with the term woke, which means to be aware of others and around you. But in some cases is wokeism taken too far? Where and you gave the example for example, uh blackface Uh in minstrel shows, which are really a part of
our history. And when we understand the history is it's still worth canceling. In other words, it's you hear it all the time. We're not supposed to show them. It's obviously degrading to Africans Americans, but it is a part of our history, so it should be presented in context. Anyway, Enough of me rambling, if you would, you know, address issues like that as an.
Artist, Yeah, it's I think it's it's a tough one and I think, you know, it's balancing cultural sensitivity versus artistic tradition. You know, I think the the the musician in me and the researcher in me. You know, I always want to know facts first. To me, his the history part is important. So, like I mentioned earlier, I don't I don't think anything should be erased from history, right, So I don't want I don't want the songs or even the you know, these very insensitive in today's context.
You know, there are videos that exist, Uh, I don't think those should be erased. Do I think they should be replicated for certain age groups? I think that there it's important that the historical context is is provided, and there are certain age groups that are and are not ready, you know, to to know about that. So maybe it's you don't you don't You don't teach about that until you're dealing with minds that are developmentally ready to understand
the history behind it. And that's you know, that's unique to people and unique to curriculum and unique to teachers and what you think. But do I want to see you know, songs like Oh Susannah or Turkey in the Straw that have origins and black, Do I want to see them go away? Of course not, because that's American folk music and America is as has had a very fractured history, right, That's part of who we are, so so are it? So it is its music, you know.
But without those songs, you wouldn't have, you know, vaudeville, and then you wouldn't have jazz, and you wouldn't have the blues and guess what, you wouldn't have all the current music that we have today. So it's important in there. It's a piece of the chain. It's an ugly piece of the chain, but it's important and without it, the historical chain falls apart. There's links that will be missing. So,
you know, the context is important. So just like if there's a statue that was historical celebrating somebody that in today's society we view as bet you know, whether or not you want to take it down, Well, maybe that's that gets a little you know. With the music, do we want to do we want to stop performing it?
That's not kind of like the equivalent to that. I think maybe we do need to recontextualize how we perform it, you know, where with a statue it might come with a piece of information on it about the person.
Or replacement in another area that or just educating people, Hey did you this person did X, Y and z.
They were celebrated for doing this, and by the way, do we want to diminish the things that they did? You know, that's a personal thing too. I'm not I'm not gonna weigh in on that because I change my opinion about that, you know, depending on the time period and the person. But with music, same thing, you know, do we want to do we want to leave out the musical merits of it that other music was built on. You know, I don't think we do, but maybe there
needs to be added information or contextual information. And I like what you said about you know, re you know, relocating it, and with with music, that could mean reprogramming it, you know, where it's appropriate to what age group is going to be appropriate, so that the historical context is appropriate. So that's appropriate too. Now do I think that that
it's overkill? I think, you know, with the current administration, we're gonna get a heavy, hot and heavy and political expect I'm gonna do so without giving away any of my political beliefs listeners, because I like to do that. But the bottom line is I constantly swing left to right on daily on different issues, and I think everybody should and nobody should belong to a political team. But that's my own opinion. They're not baseball teams. They're too important.
And I'm a baseball fan and so I think baseball is important too. But I think that do we need to uh wait, and now I forgot the the well.
We're talking about howstration and the Yeah, so we're on a very we're.
On a very certain swing of a pendulum. Okay, now, you know, I always try to look at politics. The older I get, the more context I have, right, I like to do more of a bird's eye view, and things are constantly swinging, and most of the time their reaction. You know, if you go back in history and you see who's been voted in administration, usually things are a reaction because people think the people often feel that things
swung too much in one direction. Right now, I think we're in a very kind of we're reacting to what a lot of people thought was a very extreme swing people. A lot of people were getting really frustrated. I think, and B when I say a lot of people, I mean, you know, this is not a personal thing. Some of it might I might agree with some of it, but I think lots of people were being frustrated with a very intense amount of cultural sensitivity and inclusion and equity.
And I don't think anybody would disagree that those things are important. But I think a lot of people felt that it was it was being it was being swung so much that way that it was not even being effective. I think they felt like it was out of you know, like a it was an optics thing. Only I think that frustrate a lot of people because I think a lot of art, a lot of logistical things in their life, a lot of things. It made things very difficult and frustrating.
And I so I think what you're seeing and sometimes that might be what needs to be done, right, But I think what happened is people are reacting to that, and so they're kind of going. I feel like we're in a period of oh, yeah, well now we're going We're going to go back more as kind of like an f you maybe and to a certain extent, and
I just think that's where we are. I'm you know, so I think we we shifted very much to the left, and I think the mess that's trying to be sent by the current administration maybe is guess what, we're gonna go away to the right now? And I, you know, ultimately, I feel like we should fall in the middle. That's where things kind of belong. But I think that unfortunately, the only way to get there is when things swing
too far in each direction. And that's what's kind of you know, I feel like the last twenty years of politics are just like so much like people cater to the the wings instead of the middle. When you sit in the middle, You're like, your voice isn't important. Sometimes feel like because you know, it's all about the lefts and the rights. You know, personally, I feel like sometimes the people in the middle, those are the ones who's voted for sale, you know, like my votes for sale
every day. You know, convince me why I should be a Republican or a Democrat, because I might not feel that way tomorrow.
I'm registered as an independent. Yeah, for that kind of reason, that's challenged another way, that show, another show.
For that right, I'm a Mets fan that's never going to change. But I'm not a political party fan. Like I'm a fan of you doing things that I feel are gonna help the world in my life. And if you make decisions that don't, I'm happy to be gone, you know, And I don't be if I agree with you today, that doesn't mean now I immerse myselves in all of your decisions about your party. I might only like to I might only like a handful of things that you do, so that it's not enough to really make
me have any allegiance to a political party. But people that are in the extremes, they don't even I feel like they don't even need those votes. Like those people are they are Mets fans to you, you're not gonna lose them. Like, look at it. If you're a Jets fan, you're never going anywhere. If you're gonna deal with the Jets, nothing that's gonna change your mind. And I feel like
that's going on a lot of politics. You have people that they're like, they're catering to these extremes and you're not. You don't have to worry about those people. I feel like, Yo, it's people in the middle like me. Shouldn't you be worried more about me? But but you know, everybody kind of you know, as that things things that way, I guess.
So I do feel like this current administration is really trying to send a message that, hey, you took all of these things for granted, but these rights maybe when they're not always guaranteed, they can be reinterpreted. And actually I just finished my administration degree literally like on Saturday. Was my last class, you know, for my school building and school leadership thing, And my last class was an
educational law class. And it was very interesting and because we kind of grew up assuming that these things in the Constitution were these guaranteed rights, but we forget that it's all about how they're interpreted, you know, and and when you know certain you know cases like you know, rovers weight and all these things, when we see these shifts of WHOA, I don't know that could be changed, and we forget these are amendments which means to be
changed and people can reinterpret them and you might not agree with the current interpretation. And I think right now you have a lot of people that were kind of like surprised, like whoa, I thought that that could only be interpreted a certain way, and now they're kind of dealing with Oh, now it's interpreted much more conservatively or much less equitably. And you know what, if you really, if you really value democracy, you got to deal with that.
You know, if you really value democracy, you got to uh participatory.
You don't work at it. It's not going to work correct.
If you want things to be you know, if you if you want your things to be guaranteed and unchanged, that's not really a democracy. That's you liking fascism when it agrees with your ideals or you like that, And to me, that's not really democracy. Democracy is messy, and it's ugly and it's going to change with the shifts and perception, and that's sometimes it's going to be on
your side and sometimes it's not. But anyways, in regards to that with the arts and DEI I think it's more of a message that people are saying, like, hey, we're not giving this the priority and the effort that it was, and we're gonna make you you know, we're not gonna We're gonna make sure people understand that these are things that can be interpreted differently, and so we're seeing like a more conservative I think we're seeing a
more conservative interpretation of it. But I don't think it's it's like a I think it's really a message sending thing how long it's gonna last. I think it's kind of sending a message like, hey, this can happen too, you know, so let's try, you know, in a way. Maybe it'll bring us more to the middle. I don't know, but I think that's what might happen.
Do you remain optimistic?
Do I remain optimistic? That's a great question. I think that I'm a I guess i'd call it an optimal optimist cynicist. Is that the world I don't know if I'm putting that together right.
I think how we put it a cynical optimist.
That's a cynical optimist, which probably some people say is a cop out, right, I'd like to I'm also very adaptable. I feel like, no matter what happens, I will find a way to navigate it. And I'm not a fan of people, you know, not being able to navigate the time they lives in, Like, you gotta survive and you gotta do your things, so navigate it.
But you know, you know, that's the real that's the real interpretation of evolution. Always people always said it's the survival of the fittest. It's nice, the survival of the most adaptable. Correct, you know, sometimes works.
Sometimes it means being sneaky, and sometimes it means reinventing yourself, and sometimes it means just quietly objecting. Sometimes I means publicly objecting. You know.
Having an open mind is ultimately, I think is being being able to to listen to all.
Uh.
Yeah, so I don't know. I'm not a political pundit. I don't have all the answers, And like I said, I don't even try to tell people, you know, when we talk about boycotting and are we too DEI or where we That's it's up to you.
You know.
I can make a case, and I guess I learned this from my law class too. I could make a case on either side. I could convince you either way and and and it changes. You know, my opinion on it changes often. I think what's more important is that we can people that have different opinions, like that's why I like your show, can talk about it and see it from the other side. What I don't want to.
What I don't like is when people say I feel this way, So I need to go on social media and make sure everybody feels this way, because if they don't, then I can't handle feeling my way. Don't get so caught up in your belief that you were. It's it's social suicide to change your mind.
You know.
If you if you if you are so adamant about something that you're gonna look so foolish if you change your mind. I think that's dangerous. Always be open to changing mind on something. You can still have an opinion on it, but maybe say, hey, I feel this way now because I'm twenty five, I'm not obviously but maybe I won't feel that way when I'm forty four, or when I'm married with kids, or when I have taught college, and respect that that not everybody. Some people make decisions
with their morals right away. Some people have to think a little more prudently about their pocketbooks and their mortgages, and some people have a luxury to, you know, to be more impulsive, and some people have to be a little more reserved and calculating. And just don't I think it's presumptuous to assume because you feel a certain way right in the moment, everybody should feel that same way about whether it's a beer like bud Light, or whether
it's a musical style or an artist. You can disagree and you can share that information, because information is never bad. I'm never a fan of repressing information. But I don't think the move is to necessarily convince everybody that because you don't like a person, that their art is not valuable anymore.
All right, let's talk to Eric Tavido, the musician. Let's what what work do you have coming up? What gigs do we need to know about where we can go see Eric Tavito?
Oh okay, yeah, so I'm doing. I have two gigs this week. One is kind of last minute. I'm going to be at the Green Growler and Crochton on Hudson tomorrow. That's actually I'm sitting in on a gig that's with the Paul Francis trio is a great drummer and that's at six thirty to eight thirty and that's actually an open jam session, so musicians are welcome to come. And that's the same group I'll be performing with on Saturday,
August ninth at Maureens Jazz Seller in Nayak. If you haven't been to Maureens, yeah, I played there a few years ago. It was a great gig, had a great time. Glad to come back to lead my trio there. And that'll be with myself on guitar and Peter Brendler on bass and Paul Francis on drums. So that'll be a trio and we'll be doing some fun stuff. We're gonna do a mix of jazz standards, some very interesting arrangements.
You might hear a little Bach mixed in there with some Stevie Wonder and you might hear a little Wayne Shorter, you know, late Miles Davis error sixties, so a nice eclectic set and that's at seven pm, and that's something I want to note because we're doing the earlier set that day. It's just one set, so there will be another group later. I know a lot of those shows start at eight usually, but this show on the Saturday of the ninth is seven pm and it's just one set,
so you do want to get there. There won't be a second set with my group, and tickets are on sale at Maureenes where you can check out their website Maureenes Jazz Seller. You can also check out my website www dot Ericdivito dot com. Because I'm kind of taking social media break, I'm not quite as updating things on social media. Some of them get updated audiomatically when I send out my mailers, so there might be some stuff.
But if you want to get on my mailing list, you can just do that through my website because my social media stuff is probably not as up to date anymore unless it's happening automatic through my email lists and stuff like that. So yeah, hopefully you guys come out. It should be a fun time and you know, either of those shows either this tomorrow. I think it's the fifth, right so tomorrow fifth.
Yes, we're recording on the on the fourth. Will be Tuesday the fifth, and then Saturday.
Then night Tuesday the fifth at Green Growler and Saturday the ninth at Maureen's.
Great Eric Deavido, it's always a pleasure. You're intelligent conversation, You're always frank with us. I really appreciate it.
Cool, it's always a pleasure to be here, Frank, And thanks so much for having me, and we'll have that.
Yes, of course we'll have you again. You know, of course, to offer special thanks to work with if you take time taking us a voice in their lives. We offer fresh topic just about every week. Catch us wherever and whenever you get your favorite podcasts. You can check us out on the Hudson River Radio Facebook page. Like us and leave us a convent too. I also write regularly for Nayak News and Views and publish a fresh article every Friday. I also have my own blog, Being Frank,
where you can see my writing. I invite you to check out both of things. They are non commercial and pretty much within my wheelhouse. Okay, well let's leave you with two last things.
Eric, don't go anywhere, because I want you to introduce some of your music to close the show. But for that, before that, I'd like to give you our slogan. And this one comes from the brilliant George Orwell who said, if liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. I think very much in line with our conversation today. Okay, Eric, you're gonna introduce our final song. What are we gonna hear?
Yeah? So this is an original composition of mine. It's called Breaking the Ice. It's actually off my debut album, which is called Breaking the Ice. I think from twenty twelve. There's a live recording of it, and this is from I believe it was recorded at Jazz at Katano Hotel in New York City, which is a great, great jazz club. I don't remember what year it's from, but this is the title track off my debut album, Breaking the Ice.
All right, Breaking the Ice with mister Eric DeVito for our engineer the mail Man because he always delivers. Mister neil Richtor, I'm your host, Frank Bono, and we hope to have you join us on the next being Frank, where the only way to be is Frank.
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