Journalist Phil Ittner gives his Unique Perspective on the Situation in Ukraine

our routine. We record live to tape. I always give you the date so you have some context and relevance. Tomorrow is Thanksgiving as a matter of fact, as we record a little bit. More on that later, but first, the AP recently reported and I quote, President Donald Trump's efforts to broker and end the Russia Ukraine War closely mirrors the tactics he used to end two years of

fighting between Israel and Amas. Bold terms that favor one side, deadlines for the combatants, and vague outlines for what comes next. The details enforcing the terms, guaranteeing security, who pays for a rebuilding matter less?

Votimir Zelensky between a rock and a hard place. It's a situation that is so fluid it may even be changing. As we report, there is a glimmer of hope for more agreeable and balanced terms to end this bitter and brutal conflict. It seems that the Trump administration has backed off the terms originally proposed. However, based on past performance

and trends, those who support Ukraine remains skeptical. In addition to Ukraine's approval, there is no telling how Putin's Russia will respond to the new terms, so there's still a long way to go. Returning to being frank to attempt to sort it all out in shape a possible future for Ukraine and therefore Eastern Europe. Is a man who has been there reporting from the very beginning and remains steadfast in his support of Ukraine. Please welcome back the

man I like to call the intrepid phil Ipner. Phil, thank you so much for joining us again.

mood like, what is it like there? What was it like when you left, which I assume would be the same as it is today.

Ukraine gets very little out of it, except for some weak, you know, assurances that some sort of Article five would be created. But you know, given the fact that they already had an agreement and it was broken, the nineteen ninety four Budapest Memorandum, and we were supposed to guarantee their borders and we didn't, so they're skeptical about any of that. And it's you know, the Russians asking for

things that are outrageous. Land that hasn't been seized yet that would have to be just handed over to the Russians, Ukrainian land, uh, you know, the they make a very kind of weak uh discussion or a point about returning children. They they the proposal insists that no war crimes will be pursued. That's not going to be acceptable to a lot of Ukrainians. I think this is dead our arrival.

occupied San Diego to the Ukrainians. It's ridiculous. And in addition to that, the land that they're talking about that they that the Russians want ceded to them are actually some of the most deeply entrenched defensive earthworks that the Ukrainians have in the country that they've been building for over a decade since the twenty fourteen invasion of Crimea

and Donbass. They've been digging in along a series of industrial cities, and if they were to give that up, it would be giving up a huge defensive line that would just make them susceptible to another attack. So I think that's the worst of it, and that's probably that's probably the thing that Ukrainians are going to reject the most.

I mean, Zelensky and his administration can kind of make overtures and make statements and try to manage Trump as best they can, but if they came back to Ukraine with the offer that was presented at the beginning, or frankly, really any variation on that, they'll be it'll be rejected and Zolensky will be in trouble of being you know, ousted. So yeah, they won't accept it.

familiar with. It actually brought me to tears. The story was about an investigator, a war crimes investigator, who actually saved parts of the bus for a day when he can finally bring this to light. But not only the physical but the emotional damage created. I mean it literally brought me to tears. I don't understand what kind of mindset brings people to that level of barbarity, to the a bus that carried innocent women, children just on a bus. Talk to that a little film please.

being anywhere near willing to surrender or give up. Everybody's exhausted. The people of Ukraine are exhausted. They want the war to stop, they want you know, they want to return to their normal lives. But you know, the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians still recognize that if you appease a bully, he's just going to come back later. And they know Russia very well. They've been occupy by Russia for roughly

five hundred years, five centuries. You know, this is Moscow's imperialism in colonizing Ukraine, and they so they know who their imperial master is better than anybody. And I most of the most Ukrainians that I speak to say that as much as they're exhausted, as much as they want the war to end in unjust peace is only just, is only going to create another war in you know, who knows when it's going to be. Who knows what the timetable is, but it'll be an inevitability. Two years

from now, three, five, ten, whatever. The Russians will go back, they'll lick their wounds, they'll be accepted back into the global community, they will make money and funnel it into their armed forces, and then they'll come back for another out. So the Ukrainians know this very well, and so they're it's it's not just that they're being that they're being stubborn.

It's it's that they know that a fight that is drawn to a close now without real conclusive developments you know on the land on the ground or you know, within the Kremlin. Uh, it just means that the Russians will come again. So I again, I don't see them accepting this this plan at all. Bill.

a Muslim Ukrainian soldier. He might be a Catholic, he might be a Protestant, he might be an ethnic Roma or a Chat or a Pole or take a pick. But right now we're all in it together and we're all Ukrainians. So that's a positive, and I think it's a positive that will last beyond the war. It'll fray, it'll you know, people being people will resort to kind

of you know, cracks and schisms. But I don't see the I don't see the lesson of we are stronger together than a part going anywhere in Ukraine anytime soon. The bad thing that has, you know, is just the lost huge chunks of human lives are gone, aside from you know, losing loved ones. You know, one of the most insidious things about war is that you're on hold. Your entire life is unpredictable, constantly unpredictable. Make any plans

you can't you know. Uh, there's there's so much that's out of your control because of the war.

of family togetherness, safety, we have it. They don't contrasts that the black and white of that.

they're they're big on that. So they do do their celebrations. You know, in terms of Americans being safe and able to gather and enjoy the family and food and festivities. You know, it's a scary the concept of losing that is very scary, and we should be aware that going down the road of political violence is you know, it might kind of have a visceral like I'd love to be unrestrained and do this, but war is a very terrible thing to start and it's a very difficult thing

to stop. And war has ramifications that we in our comfortable lives in the West and particularly in America, have no concept of. I mean, do you really want to you know, if you have to travel to the next town over, but you have to go through a checkpoint because you know, your vehicle needs to be inspected before you can you know, if the if the if the Walmart is in another town, you have to go through a checkpoint to get into that into that town. Do

Americans want to live like that? Do Americans want to live with the constant threat of some sort of you know, bombing or you know what what have you? I mean, it's we are very privileged and lucky to live in the in the stability of the United States, in America, and I have seen an infuriating appreciation for what that means, the stability. And I've spent much of my life traveling to places where there is you know, instability, and we don't want it. We don't we we don't want it.

You know, be thankful for the peace that we have in America, despite our besides, you know, despite our tensions and everything that's been going on, it is always better to work it out in our houses of government than on the streets. And you know, Ukrainians know this very well, and they know what it means to the to lose the uh, you know, easy comfortable appreciation of these holidays. You know, they have to they have to really make an effort to to to celebrate these these holidays, and

they do because it's so important to them. I just think as we go into Thanksgiving and the holiday period, you know, Americans should reflect on the fact that this, this is not a guarantee, none of that, none of the ease and comfort of being able to get, you know, gather with your loved ones and celebrate. That's there's no guarantee of that. And and it's uh, it's it's something

I think should be appreciated more. And I urge Americans to to think about the fact that, you know, we're lucky to live the country at peace.

in favor of Russia. Yet Ukraine and Ukrainians seem to align much more closely with American ideals. Yet this administration seems to continually favor Russia. Do you have any point of view as to why that might be happening. What's your perspective?

that right. There is an indication that Moscow is deep inside our our our society, our civil society, our political society, you know, not not to mention our defense security intelligence. They've been meticulous about it, and they're deep, deep, deep inside, and that should give us all, you know, real serious

cause for concern. And uh, you know, I think that there are people in the Trump administration, Trump himself included, you know, sentment perhaps setting the example is is that you know, it's it is if it's if it's if it is beneficial to them transactionally, they are perfectly happy to work with people like Vladimir Putin, So all sins are forgiven as long as they start that oil and that natural gas flowing again or they you know, Putin praises Trump as as was just recently revealed in this

conversation with Steve Whitgoff, who you know clearly is in way over his head as a as a representative to the Kremlin. But you know that there was this leaked, you know, phone call between him and a Russian aid to Putin saying, you know, just flatter him, just going there and flatter them, Flatter, flatter Trump, tell him you he's a great peacemaker, and tell them all the things he wants to hear, and you know, will will get a plan through that is beneficial for Russia. I mean,

it is. It is painfully clear that Moscow is deep inside of our society. Are our power elite. And I'm not just saying politicians there's they're inside the media, They're inside you know, political parties, not just you know, members who are actually political power, the civil society. They've been at this for quite some time and they're they're very

very good at it. They don't have to invest in aircraft carriers when they can manipulate foreign policy and make the White House dance to its tune, which is exactly what they're doing. I mean, the team, the interlocertors with the teams in Russia are a joke. Steve Whitkoff has no idea what he's doing, you know, you know, Marco Rubio has always been kind of hawkish about the Russians,

but he's not a Russia expert. They you know, where are the guys that have put in twenty thirty years, whether or not in academia, or whether or not in diplomatic circles, who are used to dealing with the Russians and you the Russians are very very difficult adversaries on the diplomatic stage, and we just don't have anybody that I'm aware of on our team that has any depth of knowledge of the conflict or speaks the language, or you know, spent years living in the former Soviet Union

or working in the former Soviet Union and understand where the you know, where Moscow comes from. None of that, none of that, and and they're just getting It's it's like watching a mouse. It's like watching a cat play with a mouse, and you just it's embarrassing to watch the American side of things because they're completely outclassed.

But what happened was in Trump's first term because well, for one reason or another, the the accepted or the kind of the prevailing idea is that because of the whole Russia interference scandal that marred his election in twenty sixteen, that he took out revenge and basically purged the Russia desk, both in the Pentagon and in the State Department. And apparently Biden didn't rectify that and rehire people back, but even if he did, Trump would have probably gotten rid

of them. Again. We just are our defenses against Russia have been willfully decimated for a variety of reasons. You know, I think about the announcement that Hexath Pete Hexath made unilaterally and without you know, any kind of discussion anywhere, you know, anywhere in the Senate or the Congress, that they were going to switch off the program that was searching for Russian bots and disinformation campaigns. I mean, why

do that? What benefit is there to that. The Russians, for a variety of reasons, again, as I say, have either infiltrated into our body politic into our government, or another form of infiltration is just having a fellow what's

called a fellow traveler. They believe in the world and how the world should function in a similar way, and that is to say, might makes right and the world should be divvied up into zones of control that obviously, you know, Europe would fall under Russia's dominion, you know, the Americas would be the USA, and then Asia would be you know, a part of you know, China's little

sphere of influence. And it's just it's old eighteenth century, nineteenth century thinking where everything is a game of risk, and the Russians really believe that, and they find common they find you know, fellow travelers in America. There are a lot of Americans who also believe that the rule of law or that you know, soft power can be as influential as you know, a carrier fleet that you know heading off wars and that word. And it's a very you know, they have a very simplistic view of

how the world works. And basically it just is I'm big, you're small. You do what I tell you what to do, and you know not to put on rose colored glasses. Of course, that's oftentimes the way the world does work. But there are there are times when we get together, we sit down, we hash things out, and we come

to an agreement and you know, abide by it. And the Russians don't see the globe that way, and they find people in America who likewise don't see the world the same way, and they find common cause.

it's it's a very cynical view of the world. The Russians habit in spades. It's kind of how they're structured, and they have they have plenty of people in America who feel the same way. So, you know, we we we got to do a lot of work in our State Department and in our soft power and in the in the other intelligence and security communities, including at the Pentagon.

I mean, I always I always remember, you know, Millie standing up there and being pumped, you know, being attacked by the MAGA representatives in Congress about why he read things like you know, Mao or the you know, the Communist Manifesto, And he said, because I want to learn. I want to be an knowledgeable warrior. I want to know who my enemy is. I want to know about different perspectives. I want to be an intelligence you know, a kind of you know, intelligent warrior. And they they

they laughed at him for it. You know, there was this there was this sense of like, you know, and then and then you know, years later you see Hank Seth walking up and down in front of the stage, in front of command officers saying, yeah, our job is to break things and kill people. Well, no, that's not strictly that that is not, strictly speaking, all that the United States military does, and that that simplistic view of it is has been really damaging. So I'm hoping we

can we can rectify that in State. We need we need better people who know, you know, the region when it comes to world Russia and the world in general. I mean, I mean that you know, there's probably some uh you know, uh guys that are that are hanging on from the you know, the Muslim world, whether that's North Africa or the subcontinent or you know, the Middle East. But we have yeah, and I'm sure there's a robust China desk, but they've absolutely withdrawn from Europe and they've

kneecapped our expertise. And when it comes to the former Soviet Union in Russia in particular, so it's it's there's the fact that our point men on this round of whatever it is, this peace process they're trying to force into existence, that the will into existence. The fact that none of them are people who have you know, spent time in the former Soviet Union, or who you know, as I say, speak the language, or they're they're amateurs.

They're amateurs, and they're going up against some of the most ruthless and adept foreign diplomatic core in the world. The Russians are notoriously good at maneuvering diplomatically and making you dance to their tune, you know, the first and they openly admit it. You know that that one of their primary tactics is to ask for way, way, way, way, way too much, and then to when you backtrack then

you seem reasonable. Well, what they've done is they've they've given this twenty eight and let's make no mistake about it. It's clear that it was given to the US side. It was not a creation of their own. It was it was given to them, and it's the Russia's wish list. And instead of saying, well, this is ridiculous, we're not going to do that, and instead of calling up the Europeans and the Ukrainians and saying, hey, let's look at this and provide a united front with a counter offer,

none of that was done. All they did was just turn right around, shoving in Ukraine's space and say you have to sign this otherwise you know we're going to break with you. And that puts Ukraine in an unwinnable position because they need America. But they you know this, this, this peace proposal is only going to lead to another war and they know it. So what to do? What for them to do?

we can let those guys go. CRIMEA is a big, big problem because there's there's an indigenous people's there that are you know, that that are pro Ukrainian, that would prefer to be part of Ukraine. And so what do you do about them? What do you do about all the people who are inside occupied territories that would if they could, you know, cross the line and go and live in Ukraine, what do you do about them? It's it's it's just it's it's gonna be a longer, uh war.

This isn't ending anytime soon. They I think would accept those things, as they say, losing Dun, losing Doniansky and Lukansk crimea being a problem. They certainly would not accept seeding territory that hasn't been won by the Russians. They're they're going to demand the children are returned, which Russia apparently does seem to be open to. But it's that's you know, uh, well it's a penny short and a week late. Uh. And you know, and then also you know,

not pursuing war crimes. That's not gonna sit well. The fact that uh, you know, Russia walks away from this, uh returning to and you know, returning to the G eight and you know, getting potentially returning to the G eight and getting the sanctions lifted from them. That's you know, that's a bitter pill for them to swallow, but that's

outside of their borders. They're going to be for us straighted with the idea that you know, Moscow is the one who's going to tell them what alliance they can have and whatnot, and a limitation on their armed forces is not going to be acceptable to them as well. It's just it's a long way so many ways. It's a non starter in so many different ways.

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iHeartRadio and all the others. And because every Being Frank is archived, you can listen to any of our programs anytime you like. You can find a link to Being Frank on the Hudson River Radio Facebook page or at our website Hudsonriverradio dot com. Just click and you're there. We're back with our very special guest. He's been covering the Russia Ukraine War from the very beginning and he continues to do so. He's been our guest before, and

we welcome him back, mister phil Ititner. Phil, I tease the question before the break, and I'd really like to know, how have you changed. It's been almost four really long years. You get back on occasion, but you're there most of the time, and you've literally lived through virtually all of it. How has that changed?

didn't had no desire to cover another war. And you know, but I had been coming to Ukraine for many, many years and knew the cost and knew the importance of this war and the ramifications of what the result of this war will be, and I just I felt the obligation to go and to cover it. Now, you know, I was. I was not expecting it to be you know, now, going into four years, I was hoping that it would be a shorter period of time. I didn't think it was going to happen you know, in a matter of weeks.

But I was more hopeful that that, you know, Russia's disastrous decision to come and do this would be would be shown to be the folly that it is. But that was not the case. And it's just, uh, it's it reminds me of my of my in many ways, it reminds me of my days as a deputy bureau chief for CBS News and Baghdad when it's just groundhog Day. It's it's just the same thing over and over and over and over again. And it's exhausting in that sense, because I would love to live a much more vibrant life.

I would love to you know, being back in the States, it's it's great to drive around and you know, you just have the liberty and the and the realization that your course of the day, your course of your life, is in your hands. And sadly, unfortunately, one of the facts, as I've mentioned about war, is that it steals your agency, it steals away your the control that you have over your life. Now, I made I made the decision to

do this on my own. I'm not Ukrainian. I don't have to be there, so you know, it's even more awful for them. But then I think about them, and I think about the fact that they are sacrificing so much for our benefit that we don't even properly recognize. We are always demanding the Ukrainians are you know, expressed their thank for thanks for our support. Well, you know, I see it slightly different in that I think we should be thanking Ukrainians as well. It's you know, it's

not exclusively you know, no sum binary thing. I mean, we can, we can both be thankful for one another. But Ukrainians are stopping one of the most dangerous regimes on the planet, and one in a country that has a history of imperial aggression to it, not only to its neighbors, to a bit further abroad, a nation that sees the British, the Anglo American Alliance and moreover, the European American Alliance has a direct threat to them and is doing everything that they possibly can to divide us

in many ways successfully. But they you know, look, of course, they don't see themselves this way. They see themselves as defending their way of life and their perspective on how you know, like power dynamics and societies and cultures should be. And they see our way of life as a threat to them, and they have this long history of invasions, so they're constantly paranoid about that. But we have to recognize that we really drop the ball at the end

of the Soviet Union. We we thought, we were convinced that because we had won the Cold War, that it would be our systems that would be going east, and so a judiciary and the rule of law, democracy and one man, one vote and ballots and you know, you know,

fighting corruption and all the rest of it. And what has actually happened because we did not handle that the collapse and the devastation of what the collapse of the Soviet Union meant to Russians into the power in Moscow in particular, we didn't handle that well at all in the nineties, and so we ended up with a man like Vladimir Putin who is deeply disgruntled about the collapse of the Soviet Union and who sees Russia as a great imperial power that must restore its empire to be

what it truly greatly is, and that is this, you know, this massive global power that can rival China or the United States or whatever. And it's just it's you know, if they lose in Ukraine, they will no longer be an empire. Their sense of self as an empire will disappear, and that will be devastating for them. And so Putin is trying to, in his own way, I guess, make Russia great again. You know, it's a trying to hearken back to a prior epoch, a prior period in their

history which is never coming back. And if the Russians, I'm sorry, if the Ukrainians with Western assistants and make sure that they stay sovereign, and Russia has to instead of seeing itself as an empire, look into the mirror and say, well, if we're not an empire, who are we as a nation? As a nation state, not an imperial nation state, but just a nation Russia. And that's going to demand of them a lot of changes that they're reluctant to do, and they have historically been reluctant

to do. I mean this goes back to the early eight you know, eighteen hundreds and after the Napoleonic Wars, and then a bunch of Russian soldiers came back to Saint Petersburg and said, we see how life is on the other side with the Europeans and we want that too, and they were shot down in the snow. And that's the Decembrist movement of I think it's eighteen forty or something like that. This is not new. Russia has known for a very long time that it has some intrinsic

problems that it needs to fix. And the hawks in Russia think that fixing Russia means restoring it to its imperial status, and I you know, argue that it's the opposite, actually, that they need to be dissuaded of the concept. And if we can do that, then Russia stops being a malign actor, or at least it is, you know, significantly decreased that they're a malign actor on and hopefully we get to a place where we can normalize relations with Russia.

Because as long as this continues, this desire to be restored to their great imperial might, they are going to undermine civil societies throughout the West. They are going to threaten their neighbors, they are going to do invasions and you know, uh back violent terrorist groups and separatist groups and all in an effort to keep everybody else in the world on their back foot so that Russia can

continue to grow and prosper. I mean, they're just, uh, this is all part of a restoration of Russia as a great imperial power in not only Putin's eyes, but in a huge chunk of the Russian population who were humiliated at the end of the Cold War and who also see the decadent West as this you know threat where you know they're gonna, they're gonna you know, well, there's all sorts of things about the West that they have demonized and you know, insists that it's decadent, in

hypocritical and all the rest of it. So we're at an inflection point. The front the front line is Ukraine, but the ramifications of whatever happens in Ukraine at the end of it all is going to be a globe.

There'll be a global reaction to it because not least of which, aside from all the things that I've pointed out with the aspirations that Moscow has, it's also going to send a very clear message to China that the West doesn't have the backbone to maybe stand up for Taiwan, or it sends a message to any country in the world that has beef with a neighbor that if you have a nuke the West, you know, that's your best form of Garrett, you know, that's your best form of

protection is to get new because clearly, if you have one, the West will We'll just let you do whatever you want. So all of this is going to change the world of our children, our grandchildren, on and on down the way.

If Ukraine's sovereignty is stolen away from it and Russia restores itself as an imperial power, the repercussions of that and the reaction to that of other great nation states or just nation states in general, will revert to the old rule of might makes right, which is so much of what we tried to avoid post World War Two. And so, you know, we either have to back the Ukrainians or we go back to a world where it's just it's just the law of the jungle.

We have a couple of episodes that we recorded before I left, but there might be a couple of gaps coming up, but we we make it a point to try and regularly publish an episode again about an hour long, talking to you know, platforming Ukrainian voices as much as we possibly can, whether or not that's a politician or

a soldier, an artist or just your average Joe. And we also talk to people who may not be Ukrainian, but they have a perspective or you know, are involved in the in the in the effort, in your grain in some unique way, or they have a unique perspective, so well we'll put them on as well. Comes out every Sunday eight pm local in Kiev, which I believe is noon in on the East Coast in the United States.

And you can figure it out, you know what where debuts in your part of the world, just based on the fact that we put it out at eight pm. Do you have time every Sunday? Right?

As I said, it's easy to talk about it behind a microphone, you're actually there, so in bringing that to us is invaluable. I want to thank you, my friend and really proud to call you my friend. Thank you, and of course always stay safe. That's always my first question, Where are you and are you safe? So thank you once again for your intelligent conversation. You know, of course we offer special thanks to our listeners who take time

to give us a voice in their lives. We offer a fresh topic, just like Phil just about every week catch us wherever and whenever you get your favorite podcasts they close, Apple, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Speaker and all the rest.

tomorrow is Thanksgiving. I hope every buddy is able to bask in the blow of good food, family and friends. Sometimes it's hard, especially in these days, to see the light. But folks, if you look for it, it's there, and look for it in the simple things, and remember those who have gone before. I know I always take a moment at the table to think of family and friends. We're not actively at the table, but they're in our hearts.

And with that in mind, I want to leave you something from a really good friend who has moved on but will always be with us through his music and through his spirit, mister Tim Omdaniu, with an original written by Chi Johan and performed by Tim and his band. This is a central line for our engineer, the Mailman. I'll be beating some turkey tomorrow, mister Neil Richter. I'm your host, Frank Lebono, and we hope to have you join us on the next being Frank. We're the only way to be is Frank.