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My goodness, be Frank. We're the only way to be is Frank. Hello everyone, and welcome to being Frank. We're the only way to be, is Frank. I'm your host, Frank Leborno, and I'd like to thank you for joining us on what we like to call the Intelligent Conversation podcast, where no conversation is out of bounds and all points of view are welcome. We go live to tape and I always give you the date so you have some
relevance and context to our conversation. It is the sixteenth of October, with three weeks, by the way left to the biggest election, certainly in my lifetime, which is a fifty year plus cycle, so it's very important. It brings us to our topic today. Fascism, a term that for many Americans conjures images the Greatest generation storing the beaches at Normandy, we're tearing down a Nazi flag in Berlin
during World War Two. It was seen as a great evil then that had to be destroyed, and America rose to the task of doing just that. But despite those images, fascism was not destroyed In nineteen forty five. It has had waves of reappearances in the many years since, not only in Europe, but here in the US as well, And in fact, many believe that despite its horrific reputation to most, it has experienced a global resurgence. Yes here
in America too. It is certainly a word that in this torret election cycle has been used with alarming frequency. But do we really know the true meaning of the word, its origins, its core principles, and perhaps most importantly, the implications for us should have replaced democracy and become the ruling principle that guides our government. Once again, we have a great guest to enlighten us with some intelligent conversation
on this most important topic. He is a musician, author, critic, full professor of Media Studies at Fordham Universe, New York, My colleague and a frequent contributor to Being Frank. That's why I call him the renaissance Man. Always takes me at least two or three minutes to introduce him. But again, it's my pleasure to welcome doctor Paul Levinson. Paul, thank you for joining us.
Well great to be here with you. I could listen to your introductions of me all.
Day, Well, they usually take all day because steeps like I wind up stumbling over them quite a bit. But as we well know, that's kind of what being frank is really.
All about, right, so absolutely.
Anyway, let's let's get to the task at hand, which is to talk a little bit about fascistm It's a word. We hear it all the time. Most of us are familiar with the black and black and white footage, et cetera associated with it, But what does it really mean? First of all, what's the root of the world? Where exactly does it come from? I know it's a Latin thing, so it has a certain direct meaning. Let's talk about that first.
Well, yeah, the Italian word fascismo, which is fascism just take away the o, means bundle of sticks, and what that in turn means is power through unity, because the bundle of sticks is stronger than any of the single sticks on their own. And obviously the Italian comes from the Latin. The Latin comes from the ancient Romans, and for them, the various words that had fascists in it also meant bundle of roots around an axe.
So you see that symbol often in ancient Roman depictions behind a throne or something, there's this tide bundle of sticks reads in an axe head. I mean, I've seen it, so I'm acknowledging, please explain for please.
Yeah. Well, and that's exactly the same thing. It's even more vivid, more direct than just a bundle of sticks, because you have the bundle of roots. Once again, many roots unity bonded together. But whether they bonded together with an axe, something that you can cut something with, chop down a tree, or even worse, kill an enemy. And there you get into one of the definitive aspects of fascism,
which it's much much more than an opinion. It's an opinion that says, if you disagree with me and I can't convince you through logic, and we can talk a little bit about what the logic of fascism is, I am going to impose my view on you. And if you still don't like that, I'm liable to arrest you. And you know, you don't have to talk about Mussolini and Hitler. You can talk about Putin right now in Russia. It's the classic fascist state. And what does Putin do
with people who disagree with them? Well, you have to happen to be near a balcony. Maybe somebody comes up from behind them and throws them off the balcony. Or if you're arrested and thrown in gel, you're liable never to get out of that gel. You can get mysteriously ill just as you're about to be released and die. So this combination of power through unity, which in itself is you know, not an objectionable.
I wanted to make that point. You know there's a perversion there. There's unity is strength from one many. We use it ourselves. Our connection to Roman mythology and government is astounding. You know, the idea that if you take a single read or root it, you can break it over your knee, bundle them together and you can't do it. But then you throw the axe head in and you get kind of this perversion of something that it's mostly good. But maybe we have to look a little further.
Well, the key difference between fascism and democracy is that democracy recognizes that there is a diversity of opinions. So what do you do. You argue those opinions out verbally, you pass laws that embody those opinions. Maybe a Supreme court will say no, that's not a justifiable law, so we're going to find this unconstitutional. All of those are expressions of differences of opinion, but they are worked out in a non violent way. The thing about fascism is
the fascists can't tolerate any difference of opinion. And again, there is a logic in fascism. They try to explain why their point of view is good. But in the end, if you don't accept that argument, the argument is not settled through any court. It's not settled through any logical group that's going to look at it and evaluate. It's settled by violence. And by the way, the other important point is all too often what fascists do is they
have a disregard for objective truths. They just make things up. And here we get into if you look at what the Institute for Propaganda Analysis.
To talk about.
Yeah, you know, they in all kinds of ways simple solutions to complex problems. There's an economic problem in Germany. Whose fault is it, Well, it's these Jews and other non Christian people who have invaded our country, invaded our body politic, are poisoning the pure blood of Germans.
And I see where we're going with this and I want to get there because I think it's important that we get there. It's part of our conversation. But bring because you also you mentioned so, I think it's timely now to jump in and say you mentioned two countries in particular that we associate most with fascism, certainly in our lifetime, even though it was before us, it's within our known history. Sometimes for younger people we both teach it Fordham and it's amazing, like you've heard of World
War two? Right, and they say, yeah, we've heard of it. Anyway, With that being said, what was And I think, because we can draw the parallels, what was ripe within those countries at that time where fascism found such a purchase, where it became part of the national psyche. Can you explain what was going on them then and particularly in those places that allowed it to flourish, and on their parallels that you were obviously starting to make today. Please continue with that.
Sure, well, Italy had a bushel of grievances as the twentieth century developed. In the first place, it was a very recently formed country. You know, Rome is ancient, but Italy is a country is relatively recent, much younger than France, and much younger than England and Germany as well, was relatively recent. It was Prussia, you know, in the late eighteen hundreds, going into the nineteen hundreds, etc. You know, Bismarck was the Prime Minister of Prussia in the eighteen
seventies and eighties. So we take for granted the age of country trees, because you know, we go back to the you know, late seventeen seventies. England goes back much much further, France goes back much much further. But some of these European countries, in particular Italy and Germany, were much more recent and so in effect, and maybe you know, this is too nice a word for them, they were children which hadn't found their way yet. And Italy also
had the grievance of it. They obviously knew that they came from ancient Rome, and so it was always a grievance of anyone really living in Italy ever since Rome fell. You know, why can't we get back up there. We once ruled the world. We once had this empire that encompassed you know, northern Africa, a lot of Europe, et cetera, et cetera. You know, surely we did that in the past. Why can't we do that now great again?
It might if I might there you go, Okay.
That's exactly right, make Italy great again. And Germany had its own huge chip on its shoulder. Germany was beaten in World War One. You know, they put up a pretty good battle. I once spoke, you know, to a German guy who actually was an American citizen, but he once explained to me that people living in Germany, you know, in the twenties and thirties, thought that Germany was this incredibly powerful country with intelligent people. But they lost World
War One because they had poor allies. They got stuck with countries that weren't the strongest. And even in World War Two, I mean, Japan put up a good battle, but Italy wasn't exactly a major power. So what led though to Nazis getting such a stronghold in Germany is, first, the Germans did not have that much experience in democracy. Up until the nineteenth the end of World War One, Germany was a monarchy. It was a somewhat constitutional monarchy,
not as constitutional monarchy as England was. And when Germany was beaten in World War One, the Germans tried to create a democracy, the Weimar Republic, and you know, they had a you know, an effective bill of rights, but
the German people had no experience in that. And so when you think about the worldwide depression that was beginning to erupt at the end of the nineteen twenties in the early nineteen thirties, that just added to the aggravation of a lot of Germans feeling that they weren't getting a fair shake.
Felt like they really got and they probably did get really screwed with many of the so called peace treaties after World War One. Obviously to the winner belong to spoils, and they took them. So Germany was stinging from that as well too. We talk about a national identity because I know Hitler used that, and I know you're going to bring to and the propagandas like, I know what it's like to be degraded. I was a soldier. I fought for this country, so please continue.
Yeah, but here again, there's a fundamental illogic that runs through all of fascism, and Adolf Hitler is a tragically excellent example of that. Because the Nazi ideology was preaching the beauty of arians, blue eyed, blonde haired people. Adolf Hitler didn't look anything like that, right, Hitler.
Short, dark air dark, exactly right.
So you know, right there you can see that there was an underlying illogic, lack of logic. And this goes right into the brilliant propaganda that Joseph Goebbels Adolf Hitler's Minister of Propaganda and Popular Enlightenment. I'm not being sarcastic. That was his title. So at least they were honest about what the man did you know? He was a minister of propaganda, a very intelligent guy. By the way, a PhD just goes to show you because you have a PhD doesn't mean you're going to be a good person.
And this is, by the way, a mistake to just briefly jump back here to the United States. One of the great dangers in this country, I think, is when Trump says crazy, stupid, dumb things that are obviously ridiculous, that doesn't mean that the people who are advising him believe that. And it's always a very bad mistake to underestimate your opponents. And so what Hitler was able to do with Joseph Goebels really running the propaganda show was
basically create a web of lies. So again simple solution to a complex problem. The German economy is suffering, not because there's a worldwide depression, not because maybe Germany could have done better things to improve the economy, but because there were non German people in Germany who were literally, in the view of the Nazis, infecting Germany and therefore preventing Germany from reaching its true height. And this simple solution for a complex problem is a great thing for
a propagandist and a fascist propagandist to use. But there are other aspects of that as well, and we can talk about them as well. One of the best examples is appeal to authority. Why should you do something because I'm an authority and I know what's best. Your logic doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if you have evidence and arguments that contradict what I'm saying. I'm at the top here, I know what's best for you, and you know it just goes on and on.
Paul, if I might jump in, that's a select few at the top, and you think of it as a pyramid, and you look at it in the particular case of Germany, But it's typical of many. There's usually a strong man, you could say, a strong person, but let's face it, throughout history it's mostly been strong men at the top, with others willing to support him as long as they get their share at the pie of the pie. But the people at the bottom get so little of the pie.
How do they at the top manage to to convince those at the bottom of the pyramid to live on the crumbs? The so called trickle down? One of the key things is and you've mentioned they I'd like to give you to get into detail, and the use of propaganda to convince people that they're doing things in the people's bench's best interest when that's the furthest thing from the truth, and everybody else can see it except for those who buy the line.
That's a great question, and again it applies to the United States. I've often asked myself, why would anyone other than a millionaire ever vote for a Republican in any situation?
And yet the Republicans, whether we like it or not, I mean, they certainly get forty six, forty seven, forty eight percent of the vote in many, many states and in many many elections, and they get those votes from people who make you and me seem like millionaire, And what are the Republicans doing that makes them these poor
people ever even think of voting for a Republican. So there was a psychologist, a student of Sigmund Freud, by the name of Eric from f R m M. He wrote a great book in nineteen forty five called Escape
from Freedom. And the question that he asked in the book is why indeed did the German populace support this Nazi ideology, this idea that you must respect and follow what the leader defeure is telling you, this appeal to authority, And what from I think very stuteley realized is that the appeal to authority in politics basically is drawing on the experience that every human being had as a child,
where you followed what your parents said. And when you are dealing when you are a parent, and let's say you're dealing with a two three year old child, you indeed very often use appeal to authority, and you even sometimes use force to get the two or three year old to do something that's not dangerous. For example, I often use the example if you're crossing the street with let's say a three year old in New York City.
You and you say we have to wait until the light change is green, and you have to hold my hand, and the little kid says, I don't want to hold your hand. I want to cross the street when it's red. You might say, listen, that's very dangerous. You know cars are coming. But you're not going to have too lengthy a discussion with this, you know, sweet little kid obviously a smart kid who has an opinion. He or she wants to cross the street even though it's a red light,
even though it's very dangerous. So very quickly you're going to say, you know what, you're not going to cross the street now, you're going to hold my hand because I'm your father have to do.
We've all heard that right the way up, because I said, so, that's right. So it's an extrapolation of that.
Really, it is an extrapolation. And that's why you know, from was a good psychologist, and you know, Freud himself, you know, realized that what people do in adulthood is based on the experiences they went through in childhood. And everyone went through this experience, you know, anyone who had who had parents who are taking care of them now obviously. I mean, this is a fascinating thing in and of itself,
even independent of fascism. As children grow up and they become teenagers, unfortunately, parents often continue exercising that appeal to authority, but it no longer works. Are a twelve thirteen fourteen year old, because when a toddler, you know, is twelve thirteen fourteen, you know they're not little kids anymore. You know they have a full capacity for adult reasoning, and they might well disagree with their parents and want to
do what they want to do. And in fact, as we become adults, no one wants to be told what to do by an authority. We want to make decisions for ourselves. So in a democracy there are limits to what authorities can do. So here in the United States doesn't work perfectly all the time. If an authority does something wrong to us, let's say a cop. I'll give you a true story. I'm driving through Westchester years ago with my daughter. I was picking up from a friend's house,
and I don't know what I did wrong. Like a cop basically pulls us over. But I make the mistake of saying to the officer, can I help you? Because I was in a bear mood I didn't want to be pulled over, and said, oh yeah, i'll help you. You know what, I'm going to write you a ticket for going through that stop sign. So I said, what stop sign? There's no stop sign there. He said, well I think there is, and he writes a ticket that
went through a stop sign, pulls away. I go to court a month later and the cop doesn't even show up. The judge throws the case out. But I'm aggravating because I missed my favorite television show, Eliots that was on at that time because that cop gave me a ticket. But that's an example of in a democracy, you don't have to accept what an authority is saying you have to do. You can protest you you know, if it's a civil matter, you can go to court. You can sue.
If you are doing business with some kind of rich company and they're not providing what they say they're going to provide, but they're taking you money, you don't have to take it from that authority. You can go to court and sue them. So that is a key difference right there. In a fascist state, there might be a court system, but it's all rigged to support whatever the authority says.
Well, you know that brings me to and you'll forgive the analogy, but you know the fashion it's almost like a virus. You know, a virus attacks as a host, but generally usually it kills the host and kills itself. So, if you'll follow me, my thinking is, you know, often fascism hides under the guide of patriotism. Okay, so here in this country we have patriots who are all about freedom. We are so willing to give away their freedom to a fascist type control to just do something because it
tells somebody tells them. I don't understand the disconnect where they're not acting in their own self best interest. You know, I want one of my fears going forward, I said, you know, if if you followed my social poets, and I'm not shy that way, I'm very outspoken, and I literally fear that if things go a certain way, we're gonna talk about more details, kind of stepping in around it.
But there is certainly the suggestion that we are leaning more towards fascism than we ever have, certainly in my lifetime, and that frightens me because I believe that even this show, this program could go away because we've been critical. If we got critical of the government, well we're shut off. I don't know how anyone, any red blooded American, if you win, would accept that. Yet people who are fascists gladly do so, and are willing to beat and control
and kill others who are not talk to that. It's crazy to me.
Well it is crazy. And I think again, what the Nazis did is they fed on the discontent of the German people after World War WI. And what Mussolini did in Italy was, as I said, basically exploited the discontent that the average Italian citizens felt after World War One. And here in the United States there are a lot of discontented people. And if you look at the people, you know, at Trump rallies, you know, obviously there are
all kinds of people. You know. Again, if forty eight percent of the population in an election of voting for him, it's a mistake to say it's just one kind of person. But by and large, the core of Trump's supporters are Americans who feel they have not been given a fair deal. And when somebody like Trump comes along and says I have the solution to it, you know, and this is how Trump talks about everything. You've probably heard him talk.
You know, when I'm elected president, even before I take office, I'm going to end the Russian Ukrainian War, and while we're at it, i'll make peace in Israel. And you know, I'll take care of all these things for you, and you won't have to worry about North Korea anymore because you probably know Kim Jong il loves me. He sent me love letters, and you know I get along in order to make deals. I'll work out everything for you. And all the frustrations that you feel, I've heard them,
I understand them. And even though I claim to be a billionaire and I have nothing in common with you. Again, Adolf Hitler has nothing in common with the Aryan ordeal ideal. It's the same kind of thing. So even though Trump has nothing in common with Americans who feel frustrated, cut out of the action, not getting their just due, always worry about where the next paycheck is going to come from, you know, and that person comes along and says, I'm
going to make all that better for you. This appeal to authority works, and that's where it comes from, even though it sounds insane, because the people buy and large who support Trump have the most to worry about if somebody like Trump was in power. It's the Democrats who are saying, we want to make sure all people have medical care, you know, we want to make sure that everyone has complete control over what they do with their own bodies. We don't want to impose anything on you.
That's what the progressive ideal tries to be. Ironically, Trump is able to get people who would have the most imposed upon them were Trump back in office. And that's why former Chief of Staff Millie has said that he thinks, and I agree with him, that Trump is the most dangerous person ever to have been in the White House.
When there were protests in the street, Black Lives Matter protests in the street because that police officer murdered George Floyd, just murdered him, killed him, you know, in broad daylight, and so people are protesting about that. Trump wanted to call out the National Guard to basically disband that those protests.
Up here because it's a great point I think we can make, and you'll make here too, And that's been used in part of what we don't make a point of. And both parties sell their their fair share of fear and loathing in particular, the Democrats had caught up somewhat. I think the republic have made it an art form, certainly under Trump, of selling fear and loathing, fear migrants,
loathe them, et cetera. But now they're also using a tactic of saying those Black Lives Matter protests, well, they burnt, they tore down things, and yet it was allowed to happen. So there again there's that little bit of that fascist law and order. We would never allow something like that to happen. So in a sense of the progressiveness shown by Black Lives Matters is being used against it also
by the fascists, and it's making points. Certainly the people who are afraid, I don't want that happening, and you shouldn't. I don't want riots in downtown Nayak. That would destroy things. We're all about free speech, but I don't want destruction. That seems fair enough talk to that.
Well. First of all, the First Amendment says people have the right to peaceably assemble for redressive grievances. So the key point is, indeed, violence is not acceptable. You know, a riot, even if it's on behalf of a worthy cause like the murder of George Floyd by a cop an agent of the state. That's a worthy cause. But the people who organize those protests never said that they should be violent. Nobody thinks there should there should be violence.
You have to peaceably protest. But a very important point that you're making is Trump is now saying that the Democrats are fascists because they're saying, Hey, that's what you're trying to arrest me. You are You know, I'm being brought up on these charges.
Assassination attempts because if you're a rhetoric, nobody's shooting in you. They're shooting it.
That's right. By the way, about the assassination attempt, I don't mind saying this, it's the strangest assassination attempt in history. First of all, they supposedly practice shot his ear off, and yet within like a week or two later, the guys walking around looks fine. Not to mention the fact that he basically looked pretty fine, like a little shaken up. And it's no joking matter if it really was an assassin.
But you know, I don't almost sounds like a plot for a movie that we're going to talk about him after the break so yes.
But so look, I don't know one way or another, but I'm not comfortable calling it an assassination attempt. I know that there was a you know, one person of a Trump supporter was killed, and you know, you know, some people were wounded. So I'm not in the slightest bit minimizing that that's a horrible tragedy. There were real bullets fired. But I don't And to this day, by the way, there hasn't been a medical report released. Usually when there's an assassination attempt, that you get like doctors
talking to the press immediately. Maybe I missed it. I haven't heard a word about that. But right Trump is trying to flip the script and say the fact that he was brought up on charges, well he should have been brought up on charges. By the way, you know, Adolph Hitler was in jail when he wrote mind cuff. So being in jail is not a sufficient.
That's right.
If anything has strengthened him. So it's we live, indeed, as you said, at the very beginning, at a very very dangerous time in this country. And I think that the key, though is, you know, to get back to what we're just saying, before in a democracy, on the one hand, different opinions, expression of those different opinions, criticism, argumentation, all of that is good and encouraged as long as
it doesn't entel physical violence. And that right there is the crucial difference between a democratic open society and a fascist closed society, because once again, you know, if you disagree with Biden and you do it peaceably, Biden might not like it. Kamala Harris doesn't like the lies that are being told about her, but no one is being threatened.
With violence to stop. Yeah, you know, it's a good, good segue to my next question. And I was going to use a quote by Winston Churchill on tax but I'm going to save that from my final quote because I think it sums up a lot of what we're talking about. But it's about people that you disagree with strongly sometimes and now with Facebook and other social media, I mean, the amount of interaction is almost unlimited. You
have the wall of protection. By the way, I wrote an article on that in the Rockland County Business Journal. People this week can check it out about civil discourse. But what do you do when you run into someone who's so adamant that he will not even listen, or she they will not listen to logic. There are certain logical organizations. But if he does, for example, well, if he does a tariff, economists tell you it would not be good for the economy, and refuses to hear that,
do you just drop it? You let it go? And I guess we just vote them out of the ballot box. But there's got to be mourning within that. What do we do pull you're you're a professor, professor of communication, tell us how to communicate the pressures.
Are well, look, it's not easy. I think the key is never give in to violence yourself, regardless of how outrageous you know some point of view is. I'll tell you a true story right now, a recent story, without mention this other person's name, as you and your listeners must know by now. I'm a science fiction writer in addition to the other things I do, and I've been writing science fiction for a long time. I was President of the Science Fiction Writers of America from nineteen ninety
eight to two thousand and one. I did that right before I came to Fordham. By the way, I don't know if forum was preparation for the other but I've met a lot of people and made a lot of friends and continue these friendships online who are themselves writers. And just recently I basically put up a comment. Some people probably saw it on Facebook and other places. I put it up on LinkedIn on X excuse me, I was going to say Twitter. But the comment was not
a particularly you know, brain comment. But the comment was I thought Walls won the debate with Vance, the moment he said to Vance, do you think who do you think won the twenty twenty election? Did did? Did Trump lose the twenty twenty election? And the moment that Vance said I don't want to talk about the past, I want to talk about the future, and obvious cop out. I think that that was a strong part of the debate, even though I thought Advance, actually, you know, it was
pretty cogent, much more cogent than Trump. So I put that up and on one of you know, these these online sites, one of my old science fiction writer friends says, I can't believe you you said that. You know, you seem to be supporting Walls and Harris. You know, they and Biden have been among the worst people in office. And I said to him, so you think Trump did a good job, and he said, yeah, I thought Trump did a very good job. And so I said, well,
let me ask you this question. Did Trump win the election in twenty twenty or did he lose the election? And this writer stopped talking to me, okay, and I figured I was trying to decide what to do. I was going to block him or whatever, but we go back a long way, and so I decided not to do anything. And a little thing happened today and not on Facebook. So though anyone is on Facebook, don't look for it there. It's on another social media side. But
a little thing happened today. Yesterday, I actually did my own podcast interview where a guy by the name of Jarrett Van Wutenberg, whose movie Quantum Suicide it's a great movie, by the way, is going to on Amazon on Friday, and I posted links to it all over and this guy that I just told you about, we had that very unpleasant exchange. He basically liked and reposted my review. So what that tells me is that there's still at least a shred of decency in him, and I'm glad
I restrained myself. I was so close to like cursing him out. You know, because it's a very volatile time, you know. You know, all of us have very thin skins. So I think the answer is, you know, it's not a perfect answer. We who pride ourselves as being on the side of democracy, being on the side of truth, being on the side of nonviolence, have to try to resist getting into that arena screaming and yelling and cursing people out and certainly resorting, you know, to any violence.
And you know, so as far as you know Trump and these trials are concerned, you know, I want those judges to give him the fairest trial possible, you know, because if they don't, that pollutes the process in a different.
Way, right you know, I address that as I said. I did an essay for the Rockland County Business Journal, and I do start it with that Churchill quote. And it's good. I'm teasing and hopefully people will stay for it. It's worthwhile because it really and that's part of the beauty of it. In a single sentence, it's just so powerful. It's humorous, it's vulgar and sublime at the same time. We'll talk a little bit about it, and I think in a very coaching way to what we were just discussing.
We also teased a little bit. There have been some influential films through the course of years that we can discuss and because they do play an important role, films can can sway public opinion. So we'll just talk about a few of those, have some fun, talk a little bit more about what doctor Paul Levinson is up. We could do a whole other show just on that, but I want to get some of that in as well.
But we'll take a quick break here, let people regroup, get something cool to drink, and we'll be continuing our discussion on fashionism and so much more here on Being Frank. I'm your host, Frank Lebono. Will be back with more of Being Frank just a few minutes. Please don't go anywhere yet.
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Welcome back to Being Frank, the Intelligentcomversation podcast. Thanks for sticking with us. I'm your host, Frank Lebono. You know, we bring in an audience a fresh topic every week and we stream from Hudson River Radio dot com where Neil Richter is our engineer, and it's located in beautiful and historic Stony Point, New York. But remember, you can catch Being Frank anywhere you get your favorite podcasts, that includes Apple, Spotify, iHeartRadio, and the others. And because it's archived,
you can listen to any program anytime you like. Find a link to Being Frank on the Hudson River Radio Facebook page or at our website, Hudson Riverradio dot com. Just click and you're there. We're back with our very special guest, doctor Paul Levinson, and we're talking about fascism, the election, and so much more. And we teas before the break. Media on mass media, things like film and television, it can have a great effect on society and culture.
And obviously politics being part of society and culture, films have made a great impact on it. In your mind, what are some of the more important films that we should study when it comes to politics, things like politics, fascism, etc.
What do you think, pol Well I would start with Triumph for the Will and this was the movie that Lenny Reefenstahl made in Nazi Germany in the late nineteen thirties. As far as its movie making capacity, it is correctly regarded as a masterpiece. I mean, she was She lived until over one hundred years of age, and so she was alive, I think, even into the twenty first century. And she received an enormous amount of criticism for that movie, obviously from the people who won World War two, thank god,
you know, the good guys. And there has been a split in cinematic studies among people who say, you can't give more than a Nazi sympathizer, a Nazi supporter who used her talent in movie making to make this movie any kind of honor, any kind of position in a university or you know, an honorable position in an organization. And on the other hand, there are people who say, well, look, maybe it doesn't matter what her politics were, what her
movie was about. We're talking about her talent as a filmmaker. But I highly recommend the movie for anyone who wants to get an idea way way back then, like over ninety years ago, about how even with the limited knowledge and the limited technology they had back then, she was
able to make such a powerful movie. And what I'm talking about is scenes of Adolf Hitler, who's a raving lunatic of course, giving a speech, and it basically, you know, pans out from Hitler to little German girls and little German boys with beautiful flowers and the sunsetting, you know, or rising or shining or whatever it was. And it was not a short movie either, but that has to go down in history as one of the most effective
vehicles of propaganda in Germany. While we're on the subject of Nati Germany, I have to cite The Man in the High Castle, which is an alternate history story, not a true story. It was a novel published by written by Philip K. Dick in the nineteen sixties, won the Hugo Award. But we're talking about things on the screen.
Amazon Prime Video, to its credit, one of the first things that they brought onto their screens in just you know, literally about ten years ago, was a television series, The Man in the High Castle, and it was, I think still to this day, one of the best series ever on television. And it basically tells the story what would the United States be like today had Nazi Germany in Japan won World War Two? You know, it plays that alternate history game. And again, in terms of what we
were talking about a little earlier. You know, you could say that it's not Germany that's winning World War Two, it's the danger of Donald Trump and the Maga Republicans getting into power the results of the twenty twenty four election that could create a fascist state right here in the United States. So this movie, this alternate history movie, provides a good tableau of what we might have to go through as long as we're talking about books made into movies.
Nineteen eighty four, of course, is George Orwell's masterpiece book, and again it explores after World War Two, what the world would be like if there were just three fascist states in power in the world. In the fascist state in which the novel takes place, the hero of the novel tries in his own way to have some individual life, but the state ultimately crushes him. In the end, he realizes the only private space that he can have is what is inside his head but never communicated to anyone.
And that's you know, brought out very effectively in the movie. All the President's Men is another, you know, important movie. This, of course, is the Woodward and Bernstein story.
And the Truth based on a true story.
True story, how they stopped another unfortunately Republican president who if he were alive, he'd probably be happy about Trump because now people aren't saying he Richard Nixon was the worst president. So so Trump at least did Nixon's memory a favor. And the truth is, look, Nixon was noway nearly as bad and dangerous as Trump has been and still is. But he was beginning, he was on his way.
You know, the idea of the plumbers undermining the you know, the democratic candidacy, which they didn't have to do because McGovern lost by a landslide anyway. Yeah, but that but that's again the beginning. It's basically tilting which should be a fair election, uh to. What Nixon wanted to do is ensure that that he won the election a very insecure man, and he was beginning to set in motion.
Again I wouldn't call him quite yet fascist. He didn't kill anyone, but but he was on the road to fascism. And that movie is a great movie about how the American journalistic system your freedom of the press, you know, and that's why you and I have talked so much about the First Amendment. That is one of the great ballwarks we have, uh for stopping fascism. And you know the and this is why, you know, it's always a tough decision, Uh, should our government ever stop anything? And
as you know, we've talked about this many times. Anytime the government prevents anything from being communicated, however justified that might seem, it's nonetheless a step on the road to fascism. And again, Lewis Brandeis often said that the best way of countering a false statement is not to censor it, because that just presses it, pushes it underground or come up again, but to leave it out there in the
open so people can defeat it with the truth. And I always thought that was a great idea and a great and very important thing to do. That's why, by the way, you know, and again you know this shows and you made this point before, the Democrats are not completely innocent of fascistic instincts. And I would say probably the single worst thing that Joe Biden did and the Democrats in Congress did is past that idiotic law that and Biden signed it into law that early in twenty
twenty five. If China does not divest itself of TikTok is going to be banned in the United States and a lot of people who don't understand the First Amendment and say, well, hey, that doesn't protect China, so right, it's not China's rights that are being violated here that I care about. It's every American who gets joy out of using TikTok, every American who has a business makes
money on TikTok, etc et cetera. And again, it might seem like an overreaction, but I'm very disappointed that the Democrats joined the Republicans and Biden signed it into law, because every time you censor something, even if it's justified, you are taking a step towards fascism.
Pull any other films you want to highlight. I have one I want to bounce off you if it was It's a little bit of an offbeat selection, but it keeps coming to my mind. The great Stanley Kubrick World
War One drama Paths of Glory. Not directly a political movie, but considering what we were talking about the state of affairs in Europe at the time, very much about the Old Guard and keeping that intact, and the pushback by the Colonel Dax I believe, played by Kirk Douglas, who pushes back and says, you're disgusting, old man, You're vile. This is a new world. You won't exist much longer.
So anyway, it comes to mind, as I said, especially in light of the transition that Europe was making, that brought about at least the pushback against the monarchy and the old guard. And unfortunately, as we talked about it, in many ways, it got perverted. It was on the right path for a while, but powerful men, as they often do, pervert it. So your your thoughts.
Yeah, well, listen, Stanley Kubrick, your example is an excellent example. Even his Doctor Strange Love is really a movie. It's it's Doctor Strangelove is about the absurdity of fascism because it's absurd and it winds up destroying itself and it could destroy the world. And so among the many absurdities, somehow when these people get into power, that they do crazy things that actually endanger themselves. And that's why, you know, in addition to everything else, you know, anybody who supports
fascism is actually supporting their own destruction. So it's a self destructing phenomenon. But it brings down a lot of good people also.
Yeah, you know, that's one of the things that I mentioned. Like many viruses, they kill their own host. Fascism in a sense, kills its own host. It abuses its own people to the point there may be a few survivors, but the rest, you know, we'll live in kind of misery. Are there any other films that you feel you really want to make a point of Before we close.
Out, I'll just make one other point, you know, and you know again, uh, you know, this speaks to my love of science fiction. If you think about the essence of Star Wars, right, there are good people who are fighting.
Them, loving people and oppressors. It's all right there, you're right now, It's all right there.
That's right. I mean, Darth Vader is the ultimate fascist, right that it destroys his enemies, you know, you know, kills them, you know right, bates them a little bit in the conversation, and then kills them so well.
Paul, I always teach you that you're always up to so much. And you mentioned your alternate history of the Beatles, which is always doing very well. You just had a book signing here at Nayak at the Red Bookstore. Uh, so you're you're always busy. What do you want what do you want to highlight today?
Listen, I'm still talking about about that alternate history uh book novel because it's getting a lot of great response. And and as I've said, I think a couple of months ago, there are a couple of like film possibilities brewing, but I don't want to mention names. Uh. As I said earlier, Apapol film something that I didn't do, but I I'm gonna give believe it or not. Probably this is the first time in my life, let alone on your podcast, I've ever used this opportunity to plug somebody else.
But I do want to say I mentioned his name for Jarrett van Wudenberg. He uh made this movie and it's a out multiverses, and you know, it's called quantum suicide. For those people who know physics, there's like like a Schrodinger's cat thing, where you know, it's like a quantum mechanical thing. Is the cat alive, is the cat dead? Et cetera, et cetera. Well, quantum suicide is the same kind of thing, but it makes the human being the subject, not the cat, and in particularly the human being who
is doing the experiments. So if you like that kind of science, fiction. I highly recommend it. And actually, okay, I just threw away how I can plug myself. I see especially, I could never forgiven myself if I hadn't used this opportunity.
One of the reasons why I love this movie is I had a story that was published in the mid nineteen nineties called The Chronology Protection Case, which also was a science fiction story that dealt with a slightly different aspect of quantum mechanics.
And in two thousand and two, a guy by the name of Jay Kensenger. You and your listeners will love this story. I come in to teach at Fort University and I find a package in the mailbox addressed to me, and there's a videotape in there, and there's a letter, and the letter is from Ja Kensenger. I don't know him from Adam, And he says, Dear Paul Levinson, I'm going to tell you right up front, I made a movie, a short film, out of your story. And I know
I never asked your permission. I don't have a contract. You know you didn't sign. And the only reason why I'm doing this I wasn't going to tell you, but I ran into Greg Behar, a great science fiction writer, unfortunately, who's no longer with us, but Jay kensingeren two thousand and two, he says, I ran to Bear and I said, I have a problem. Can you help me with it? And Grex, what's the problem? And Jay Kensinger said, I made this little movie based on Paul Levinson's novel and
I didn't let him know about it. I'm afraid he's going to sue me. I mean, what should I do? And Greg Bear left and said, are you kidding? You don't know Paul Levinson. He'll do nothing but be thrilled about the fact that you made this movie. Anyway. The movie The Chronology Protection Case is available on Amazon Prime Video right now. You can see it for free, and I'll do that, yeah.
If you like.
And it actually stars Jay Kenzinger and a couple of other people as doctor Phil Dematto, who I created him as a character. Doctor Phil Demotto went on to appear in two other stories, The Copyright Notice Case and The Mendelian Lamp Case. Then in three novels I wrote, The sol Code, The Consciousness Plague, and the pixele So how's that the self promotion.
Most impressive as it always is, Paul, We could do that we could certainly do the whole show. I just thinks that you're up to but we have to wrap up at some point. And of course we want to thank you for being Frank, as you always hear with your intelligent conversation. You're You're always welcome back, Doctor Paul Evinson and Fordham University, Thank you, Paul.
Thank you. I'm here because being Frank is the only way to be.
I beg a lot, and of course we offer special thanks to our listeners who take time in their lives to give us a voice. Remember, we offer fresh topic every weekend. You can catch us wherever and whenever you get your favorite podcasts, check us out on the Hudson River Radio Facebook page. You know, we leave you with a slogan and a song. And again it's one of the reasons I love having Paul on because he brings his own music with him. So I'll let him introduce that.
But before, as advertised, a quote from Winston Churchill, and I think sums all this up when he said, tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. Pretty much says it all, doesn't it. Paul what are we going to hear? What music are you bringing us today?
You're going to hear one of my favorite songs. I'm surprised I didn't give it to you sooner, Samantha. And you might think, well, it's just a woman's name, so but this is a song about love across alternate realities. And I started writing the song about twenty years ago, when I knew I was going to be recording Welcome Up Songs of Space and Time back in twenty eighteen,
I realized I ought to finish this song up. So I wrote the words and the music and it's my most I don't know, you know, some of my earlier songs I saw have soft love songs. This is like my hardest edgy.
I listen to it, got a ledge to it. Yes, yeah, excellent, All right, Doctor Paul Levinson as a master, maestro, composer, musician and uh an always welcome guest here at Being Frank. I'm your host, Frank Leblona for our engineer, the mailman, mister Neil Richter. We hope to see you on the next Being Frank. We're the only way to be is.
Frank, Samantha Cadgers.
There's no way.
Forward. Yeah that Seba Samantha fathers so sweet, waits free those bast not much we can do. You come from the all D D shot. That's what makes you so ok. That's what puts me off to see you come from me. Got a stop chever. Don't pull you back that head and eye. I pull you back that I had died.
Some mad that.
Tess with me about I don't think that would be off the phone next year because you're won't be in it. It's a bad that you too. We can't trip way autist.
It won't be.
If you really.
Your love just WoT survive and sport show it does now with feeling all the manadays is way.
Your love just an hour starch show. I can't do that.
Time and you get to love crime just be hout to some man tregos weak inside. We can't twistad shot.
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