Peter Bitwinski (Surviving Both Attacks on the World Trade Center) - Episode 1005

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Or visit BeaverFit USA and click on the military and tactical tab. Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show, former Port Authority accountant and survivor of the 9-11 attacks, Peter Bitwinski. Now what makes this conversation so, so powerful, as you will hear, is that Peter was present during both attacks.

So he relays the story of the first one in the 90s, the casualties, some of the heroism, some of the safety changes following that, and then his account of 9-11, 2001. Now Peter is a very humble man, but as you will hear, he and his colleagues ended up carrying down one of their wheelchair-bound employees from the 69th floor down to safety and beyond. He then ultimately also became a curator telling this story in the memorial.

Now before we get to this incredibly important and powerful conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment, go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single five-star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for others to find. And this is a free library of over 1,000 episodes now.

So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them. So with that being said, I introduce to you Peter Bitwinski. The Enjoy. The The The The The The The The The The The in Bayonne, New Jersey. And I, you know, my parents were individuals who had sort of diverse backgrounds. My father left high school after his sophomore year and ultimately went

into the Navy. He spent a few years in the Navy. And then when he got out, had different jobs and ultimately settled in to work as a refinery worker at the Exxon plant in my town in Bayonne. So he was a refinery worker. My mom was trained as a nurse before she even got married. So she became a licensed practical nurse, kind of left that profession when she began to have kids. And she wound up having six kids. I have five siblings. I have three

brothers and two sisters. And only one still lives in my town. They're kind of scattered east and west. But I maintain hopefully a good relationship with all. So I went to local schools. My parents were Catholic and they kind of focused on us going to Catholic schools as an education. So I went to a Catholic grade school, Catholic high school, graduated there and was working in a pharmacy from my senior year of high school and continued there as

I went to a local college in the nearby town, Jersey City, St. Peter's College. And continued there until I graduated with an accounting degree. The story behind it is I was an undeclared major for two years. My father wanted me to get into pharmacy, which I had been a worker in the store. But the problem was Peter couldn't hack chemistry, didn't have a clue what they were talking about. So pharmacy was out. I wasn't really as brilliant as some of my other

brothers and sisters. So I had to kind of struggle through school. But ultimately, I decided on accounting and I graduated with an accounting degree. And the thing was, when I graduated college, the economy was not good. There were, I guess, just many difficulties with the economy and not being the brightest and the sharpest guy, I struggled to get a permanent accounting job. I continued kind of working at the pharmacy. I got a few part-time

accounting jobs with the accountants, but nothing permanent. And that was my goal, to get a permanent job. So I used to eat Sunday by the Sunday New York Times, I would cut out company articles, not even advertising for accounting jobs, just sending my resume with a cover letter to a company saying, if you have an accounting permanent job, I'm interested. Most of the time I got letters back saying, you know, they didn't have anything. One company,

though, said that they didn't have anything, but they'd be in touch if they did. And that company was a local agency called Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. And six months later, after sending me that letter, they called me up and said, we don't have a permanent job, but we have a temporary job. Would you be interested in a temporary job? And myself, knowing the agency it was and the fact that it was a large agency with a lot of employees,

I felt my chances were better than other temporary jobs. So I took the interview, I said, where do I go? And they told me, well, you're going to go to one World Trade Center, 69th floor, and you're going to meet with Mr. DeSanto and Mr. Giannaglia. And I said, okay. So that was my first entry into World Trade Center. I had the interview. I didn't necessarily, the interview went well, but so I had plenty of other interviews that went well, but I

didn't get the jobs. So I didn't try to get my hopes too high. But two weeks later, they called me up and said, they're offering me a temporary job working in the World Trade Center. It was full-time hours, but just temporary in that it was only three months of duration. But I took it. I thought my chances were better than any accounting firms. And 42 and a half years later, I made it a career working for the Port Authority.

Well, I want to go back to your parents for a second. Was your dad in the Navy during wartime or was it after? It was during World War II. He served some time in the Pacific. And he was very proud of the fact that he was a US Navy man. And he didn't talk to us often about it, but occasionally he did. And his brother, Eddie, also served in the Navy. And I always remembered him telling the one story when their boats came together and they were able to kind of

connect with each other way out in the Pacific. And they had buddies too who were in the Navy from our town. And so in those days, military service was very, not that it isn't now, but it was almost a career and an honorable way for, there wasn't as many college graduates then. So he was proud of what he did. But when people bring up family members that were in that generation, when we think about it as younger people, we're like, it was the greatest generation. They just came back and

they rolled up their sleeves and they made America great. And then you start hearing about dad, about granddad over and over again, and you realize, no, that's not the case. You can't just shirk off the horrors and the fear of warfare, especially in that theater,

and then just come back with no counseling or conversation and just be fine. So when you look back, were there any impacts now having, obviously we're going to talk about 9-11, so the trauma that you've experienced, were there any elements of that, maybe inability to really share what he went through that you saw through a young child's eyes back then? Yeah, I mean, my father, when he talked about the Navy, said he wasn't in any major warfare

battles on the ship he was on. So it didn't appear that he had a lot of duress and a lot of difficulty. But, you know, honestly, when he came back, he was a drinker. He used to go across the street to the bar and, you know, he was an everyday drinker. He wasn't a total, you know, alcoholic, but, you know, I guess an everyday drinker is. Now, whether he was hiding anything that he didn't want to tell us, I don't know. It's possible. My parents

did not have a good relationship. Kind of after I turned 11 or 12, it was growing, they were growing apart from each other. I could see it as a kid. I experienced it. And, you know, was his difficulty more with my mother or something through the Navy or something else? Hard to say. But, you know, he did have his struggles with alcohol. What about the refinery work? Was it requiring him to be away for a long time or was it local and therefore he was able to come home every day?

Yeah, it was the latter. It was local. It was in the town. The only thing difficult about it was it was shift work. So he would work either, you know, seven to three, three to 11 or 11 to seven. So each week was a different shift. And there were, you know, my father was a very dedicated guy and if they offered overtime, he would take a second shift. So

he'd work 16 hours straight and he did that often. So, I mean, the one thing about him, apart from any problem he may have had was he was a great provider and he really did his best to take every possible opportunity to give money to the family and keep us going. So, you know, much appreciation for that. What about during the school age, sports and exercise? What were you doing at that age?

Well, I always liked sports. My dad liked sports and he took us to games. He, you know, I always remember going, you know, to local stadiums and things and he liked the local teams. So, you know, he introduced us to it. He even would play, you know, take us to the local park and, you know, throw the ball and, you know, mostly baseball and allow us to hit and that was, you know, very, you know, I could tell he wanted us to kind of get into

sports if we could. He didn't press us or anything, but he liked sports and so I wound up, you know, not playing for any organized teams or anything, but I would play with my buddies and the street guys and, you know, I like sports and I mostly settled into, believe it or not, liking ice hockey and I've been a Rangers season ticket holder for over 40

years. So that wound up being the sport I got attracted to the most was ice hockey, even though I can't ice skate and I've never, you know, done so. Now why the Rangers? Because isn't there a New Jersey team? Is it the Red Devils? There's a good explanation for that. When I was growing up, there was no New Jersey Devils. Okay. There was only, you know, I think it was six teams when I was growing up and the only local team was the Rangers. There was no Islanders, there was no Devils. So my dad

took us to Madison Square Garden and I became a Rangers fan. So when the Devils came to New Jersey, I think it was the early eighties, I didn't move from the Rangers. I stuck with the team that I rooted for already. So even till today, I continue to do that. Well then talk to me about your entry into the Port Authority, you know, and ultimately as an accountant. I mean, let's just start physically with working in one of the tallest structures on the planet.

Yeah. You know, I've mentioned to people when I've done the walking tours or, you know, I speak to any of the volunteer opportunities is that I always remember my grandmother used to work in New York City and when they were building a World Trade Center, she took us over to various times to watch a little bit of the building. And then I came full circle

because I wound up working in the building. Never, you know, like I said, I sent out, you know, maybe hundreds of resumes and I could have had a permanent job elsewhere, but whatever fate, I wound up accepting the permanent job in the World Trade Center. So I used to take a subway train that took me underneath the Hudson River. And then I would take two escalators and two elevators to get to my office on the 69th floor. I worked on

the 69th floor, which is about two thirds of the way up. Most of my career, I worked on 69. My career in the World Trade Center spent a little time on 68, a little time on 60, 63. But most of my career was on 69. And I used to joke with people. I used to take eight elevator rides a day. You know, you took like an, the way it worked was to get

to 69, you had to take an express elevator that took you to the 44th floor. Then you changed there and you walked down the corridor and you got into a local elevator that took you from 44 to 69. So you took an express and a local just to get up to your office in the morning. So, you know, you took two to get in the morning, two down for lunch, two back after lunch, two down at the end of the day. So I took eight elevator rides

a day. Not many people, you know, took that many elevator rides a day. And honestly, I always would say I felt privileged to be working in the World Trade Center. It honestly was, you know, when I first started working there, I think it was still the tallest building in the world. And maybe the Sears Tower was slightly taller. But, you know, here I was, you know, working in this great New York City in, if not the most famous, one of the famous

buildings in the world. So I felt privileged to be doing that. What do you remember just simply as far as the view being that high up? Because obviously, when you're a pedestrian, which most of us are in New York, everything is towering above us, but it must be the reverse looking down a lot of the city. See, the thing about working in a World Trade Center is when you're a newbie or a rookie, your workstation, your desk is typically in the middle of the floor. You don't have a

window seat. But ultimately, I got promotions and I moved closer and closer to the window. And ultimately, I got a window seat. So window seat meant that I could literally stand up and be right at the window, look down and I could see nearly 70 flights down on a clear day. I could see all the way to watch on mountains. So I had what very few people had in their workplace. You know, everybody has a workplace, but I had the World Trade Center. So again, I'm forever thankful for that.

When I think of an express elevator that tall, immediately in my mind, I was never on a special operations team, but I did the training for it. How complex that must be if there's an elevator issue because it's not, you know, there's multiple floors that are skipped. So do you remember any elevator rescues when you were there? I remember a couple of times when I was with other people, it held about, I think, 30 to

40 people and it was one stop. You know, they were, see the way the World Trade Center worked is if you worked higher than 44, you took an express, which is a one stop elevator to 44. And then you got off and you transferred. If you worked, let's say on floor 100, you

took an express from one to 78. So there were two types of expresses. And so the 44 express, I remember a couple of times when it stopped short of, let's say, landing at the first floor when it was coming down, but through whatever means they were able to resolve the problem. Myself personally, I only got what I consider stuck one time in the over 20 years I worked there. And it was odd because the one time I got stuck was when I went in on

a Sunday alone just to do some work at my desk and go home. And I was in the express elevator alone. So, you know, but they had a call button, you press the call button, they stay in communication. And ultimately they got me down, they pried the doors open and I got out. So, you know, all's well that ends well. Murphy's law though, huh? The one time you get stuck.

Yeah. What can you do? They were very reliable. And, you know, they maintained them, you know, at times some of the express elevators were out of service, but that was okay because they had multiple express elevators. So you weren't really without the elevators for any long period of time. Well, talk to me about the Port Authority in general, like what they oversee. Because I had Will Jimeno on a while ago. He was one

of the Port Authority police officers that was trapped and ultimately rescued. An absolute miraculous story. But give us an overview of the company itself. Sure. Will is a police officer and I'm just a standard employee. So the Port Authority

employs both police and regular employees. It's a local agency that was started in 1921 and it basically maintained, it's for the public good and it maintains the local airports, the tunnels and bridges, many of the tunnels and bridges and is there to serve the public community of the New York, New Jersey area. At its height, when I first started working there, we employed 10,000 or more people. Then they had a decrease in staff in, I believe,

the early 80s and the staff was brought down to about a 6,000 level. And I think it's been pretty well maintained at about 6 or 6,500 or so employees. But believe it or not, the Port Authority built the World Trade Center. They owned the land and they built it. And then you may have heard the story, six months before the 9-11-01 attack, they completed

a deal with Silverstein Realty to net lease the World Trade Center to Silverstein. So although the Port Authority remained the owner of the property, Silverstein was involved in managing the property. But the Port Authority kind of branched out into real estate and industrial parks and things. But really, at their core, they are a transportation agency locally. JFK Airport, Luwadi Airport, Newark Airport, the tunnels GW, I mean, Holland Tunnel,

Lincoln Tunnel, GWB, those are what we call our facilities. We also have port facilities in Port Elizabeth and Port Newark. So we're kind of wide ranging as an agency. Will Barron Beautiful. I didn't hear that before about them actually building the tower as well. That's new information. So thank you for sharing that. JFK Yep. Yeah, they built it. And the thing is, the agency, we're what's called self, I forget the word for it, we self provide so that we gain revenues by the tunnel and

bridge fees and the landing fees of airliners into our airports. So we don't rely on any kind of public funding. Our authority is the governors of New York and New Jersey, who set up a board of commissioners of 12 commissioners. And that's how the court authority is run. Will Barron When you said that there was a cut in staffing in the 80s, when you look back, and obviously, you've got a very analytical position, was

that a good leaning of the company? Or, you know, was it something where maybe some of those staffing, you know, the numbers should have been put back? JFK I would say it's it from an employee standpoint, it wasn't it wasn't good. And it wasn't nice. And I remember, specifically, two of the employees we had in our in our division. Both were over 70. And the port authority was their career, and it was their current life. And they were two of the people who got terminated from

the company. And at hurt, you know, I had to go to one of them, because I was, I believe, a supervisor at the time, and I had to explain to the person to pack up their belongings and leave for the day. And, you know, she was heartbroken. I mean, she she just she she was in shock. And she basically didn't want to leave. So it's tough on employees. I mean, I understood from the from the employer standpoint, that the greatest expense that

a company has is the salary and the benefit expense. So the easiest and most bang for the buck you get is when you cut the expense of labor. So I kind of understood it is also a certain amount of public pressure in that the port authority, because it's a governmental quasi governmental agency, the public tends to weigh in and, you know, give comments,

you know, you got too many employees or this or that. So I think they tend to listen to that too, which, you know, can really alter decision making. Absolutely, because we're in a recruitment crisis in fire and police at the moment. And I think people are starting to realize that if you invest in that workforce that you have, it'll actually cost you less money if you take care of them and they don't get sick

and they don't take, you know, sick time all the time and all these things. So, you know, that just slice and dice mentality. If you look at the progressive corporations of these days, Google, Virgin, they're, you know, shorter work weeks, and they're investing in people and they're trusting them to get work done in however many hours it takes and very, very different model than a few years ago.

Yeah, I think they've come to understand that that's important. So whereas early in my middle of my career, things weren't that way towards the end of the career, my career, the port authority followed suit and they invested more in their employees, both from a training aspect and a life, you know, aspect, a family aspect. So, you know, they were in line with the general consensus of the way to treat employees near the end of my career.

Well, let's go to February 26th, 1993. That's obviously an event that is sadly overshadowed by the 01 event. But talk to me about your experience that day. Okay, so that was a, what I call a smoke event, but a deadly one. I mean, basically, as the story goes, the terrorist's plan was to, with this truck bomb, topple the North Tower into the South Tower, effectively knock over both towers. They failed. I was at work that day,

as I usually was. I remember it being a Friday afternoon, slightly after noontime, it was 1218 when the bomb went off. It was a very cold day, so typically and cloudy and looked

like it was going to snow. So, whereas maybe a different time of year, a lot of people would head out for lunch and leave the building, everybody stayed in the building, which made matters worse because when the bomb went off, I remember I was in my boss's office and we were talking about a financial matter and the bomb goes off, the building shakes, the lights go off immediately, and within five minutes, smoke had reached our floor on 69.

So we knew it was something serious because that's not the kind of thing that happens on an everyday basis. I mean, we used to endure different things like towers had a sway factor, and on very windy days, the tower would sway and you'd have to hear a creaking sound. You have to get used to it because it's not like you could pick up and leave for the day. But this was different. The building shook, the lights were out. We knew something was wrong.

I remember going to the staircase and the staircase was loaded. There was many people above us, many people below. We were basically going very slowly down the staircase. There was a lot of heat, a lot of smoke, no lights in the staircase and no announcements. At certain points, we were stopped in the staircase, just standing on the stairs, inhaling smoke. At one point, I remember a woman behind me starting to cry and asking me what's going

to happen to us. I really didn't know what to say to her except to ask her to just try to stay calm. We'll get through it. And she did. She calmed down. Ultimately, we didn't get too far down in the staircase I was in. At least I only got to the 47th floor from 69, and it kind of herded everybody onto the floor. I always say 1993 is not like 2024.

There's no iPhones. There's no instant ways to find out things. In fact, I remember when we were all herded on that floor, the chairs were all taken, so we were sitting on the rug. I remember seeing at a distance a couple of the executives breaking through the window and sticking out what looked like an antenna or something where they were trying to get some kind of communication going. But needless to say, we spent many hours on that floor

until finally the firefighters came up. They had cleared the staircase and then were allowed to go down. I remember exiting the staircase. I remember exiting to the street. It was after 6 p.m. that day, and considering that the bomb went off at 12.18, it was a long time that we had in terms of evacuation. Well, firstly, it was a subterranean parking where the van was under. So for that to then reach you on the 69th floor and beyond, that shows you the power of the bomb.

Yeah, I mean, a lot of people know the World Trade Center as 110 stories tall, but also when seven stories below the ground. It was basically all a parking garage, a public parking garage with, in those days, zero security. So the terrorists took advantage of that. They had driven their van into the parking garage, left the van, had a timer and a detonator, and they detonated their bomb.

When they kind of evaluated later, what had happened to prevent that collapse, prevent something much more catastrophic happening? I think it was just such a powerful structure. It's almost the same thing that occurred in 2001 was, I think the terrorists underestimated the strength of the steel and the power that that steel had. The Twin Towers were anchored 70 feet below ground into New York City bedrock. So their base was these powerful tridents, steel tridents that came from 70 feet below

the ground. So the anchor and the base was very, very strong. Same when the plane hit it. I think in 2001, they wanted to topple the towers down, but the towers withstood it. So I think it's just the power of the strength of the steel. And what about the outcome of that first bombing? How many, how many of you were killed in the end? I know that there were hundreds that were hurt and unfortunately seven people died,

six people and an unborn child. In fact, the woman and another employee were employees of the Port Authority who I worked for. So, you know, we did lose a couple of people in 93 also. So sad. What about, as you mentioned, no security prior to that? What did you start seeing as far as security changes post? Security time changes. I mean, you know, I've often said that really what occurred after

1993 was very significant, significantly changed, you know, World Trade Center access. I mean, you know, there were jokes about in the early days of World Trade Center, just regular visitors would come to the towers and ride the elevators for fun because they were able to. But after the 93 bombing, they put in total security. You could not. It was a security guard at

each of the elevators and you could not get in without displaying your ID card. You could not get in as a visitor unless you were going to a meeting and had a World Trade Center access card. So security wise, they went 100 percent in terms of securing the building and they put other changes in. They put better lighting, communication in the staircases

and they also increased the number of fire drills we had. And the most significant thing that they did was as far as what's relative to me and my group of buddies was they brought in these things called evacue chairs, which saved my friend John's life.

What about the drills themselves? What do they look like? Because I can imagine being an office worker, you know, when we were at school and we're little, you know, you do a drill, but you're a child and you can't wait to get out of math because it's really boring anyway. You know, but if you're 110 stories up, how are they able to orchestrate that? Well, they only did them floor by floor. So it wasn't like they did an entire building

fire drill. You would only have a drill for your floor. And early on they would announce and preview you so you knew when that drill would happen. And then eventually I think they did them unannounced. But basically you didn't have to leave the floor. What they did was they ran the siren. You would go out of your office and into the middle of the

floor. And everyone would have to be quiet standing against the walls. And then a fire drill instructor would come in and give you the instructions, which were that when a fire emerge or any emergency happens and the sirens go off, you are to avoid the elevators, go to the staircase, go down three flights and then go onto that floor. So in our case would be, you know, we would go down to the 66th floor and remain there to await further instructions.

Of course, what occurred in 93 and 2001, we didn't go to that third floor. We just kept going down the staircase. But it was organized and it was informational. And, you know, as it turns out, as an employee, you welcomed it because you realized it was important after 1993. Well, it's interesting as well because some of the criticisms of, you know, the response

initially was the sheltering in place. But if that's what you were training to do, because never had anyone thought an entire building would come down, then it makes sense. Yeah, I think that was in fact, there were employees from my own company that in 2001 locked themselves into a conference room and were going to wait it out. See, the thing, I think some people were in 2001 were comparing it to 1993. In 1993, you had all the time

in the world. Whereas in 2001, literally you were working against the clock of the steel that was melting and as it turned out, couldn't hold up the upper floors. But nobody knew any of that. Everybody was just kind of operating on their best choice and decision. Well, before we get to 2001, were there any other incidents at all and anything of significance that happened between 93 and when we get to 2001?

I don't remember any in particular. I think there was one day I wasn't in where there was some kind of electrical issue and they had to, you know, so like a power outage and they had to empty the building and they sent everybody home and they came back the next day the power issue was resolved. But typically, you know, none come to mind in terms of either any kind of emergencies due to violence or any other technical issue. Things were pretty stable.

Well, let's talk about September 11, 2001 then walk me through, you know, waking up and then and then how that day unfolded for you. Sure. Well, when I woke up, it was really, you know, such a beautiful morning. I mean, I remember the night before I went to visit my sister and it was rainy and it was, you know, not a good evening. But by the following morning, all that rain had cleared out. It was perfectly sunny. It was a Tuesday morning, just kind of another day of work. But, you

know, you're a little bit refreshed because it was early September. It was a little bit cool. You didn't feel that bad about going to work. I remember I traveled my normal way to get to work. I'm a worker who used to arrive early. So I was at my desk by 8.15 that morning. I had described to you how I took the subway that took me under the towers to escalators to elevators. And when you get out of the elevators on the 69th floor, there's like

four doors, east, west, north and south. I went through the west door and went over to my desk. And it was another day. It was early. I remember not anybody was really in yet. So I started my work day. I'm writing something at my desk. And then a half hour later was when the plane hit and the plane hit from behind me. So the thing about it was I didn't see the plane approach the building. So one minute I'm writing something at my desk and

the next minute it powerfully hit 22 floors above me and knocked me onto my desk. And then the next one to two minutes were really the longest in my life because although the terrorists when they gunned it and flew the plane, they say four to five hundred miles an hour into the tower, I guess they're expecting to knock over the tower. But the tower held strong. But the rebound effect was that the tower took the hit, but it started to violently

move back and forth. You know, I described for you earlier the windy days. It had a shift, but nothing like this. This was, you know, I was hearing that sound of crunching steel of the tower moving back and forth. And then I remember lifting myself up off my desk and standing up. And I noticed that the floor was not stable. It was what I described as

rolling. It was moving from side to side. And I remember kind of being in shock and looking across the floor and I saw one person and I looked in her eyes and she was in shock too. But nobody else else was in yet because it was eight forty six. So I kind of felt a little bit alone. I remember saying to myself, whispering, is this where it all ends for me? Is this where I die? Because, you know, I didn't expect that that movement and the

floor rolling would stop. But it did. About a minute and a half later, it stopped. And then someone ran down and said we needed to evacuate. Another person came down and said that they were actually facing a window where the plane was approaching and they were expecting the plane to climb and to go higher. But it never did. That was the first time I knew it was a plane that hit the building, because again, it hit from behind me. So at that point,

what were the conditions like on your floor? Well, the thing about it was on my floor, there was no fire, no smoke, nothing falling from the ceilings of the walls. It was just, you know, the crunching steel and the movement of the floor. But that all stopped. So conditions were good. It was, you know, then time to evacuate. And the thing about the evacuation though was, you know, I thought of my friend John, because we had worked side by side workstations

for a long, long time. And I knew that he came to work early, just like I did. The thing though was about six months prior, he had transferred to the revenue division, which was across the floor, same floor, 69, but he was on the opposite side. But just knowing him, I knew he would be at work and I knew he would need help because the motorized wheelchair cannot get down the staircase. So I immediately, you know, ran off to get the evac chair. And

as I'm in the hallway, who do I bump into? It's John. And I said, John, where's your chair? Where's your evac chair? But he was in shock. He just sort of pointed his arm and said, it's over there. So I went to where I thought it might be. And I shifted around, I found it under some boxes. You know, we had practiced it once. And just so we could open it up and possibly get him into it. But he didn't want to get into it, which I understood.

We would have had to lift him in, but at least we knew how to work it. So when I came back, this just wonderful thing happened. These 10 co-workers of mine hung around to help. And that was absolutely vital because there's no way I could have helped John alone. And having the help of my other co-worker buddies was really the thing that was the difference for us. We unstrapped John from his wheelchair, lifted him into the evac chair. We strapped

the bottom and top there. We had a quick plan, two guys at the bottom of the evac chair, two at the top. Rotate after every five floors, bottom goes to top, top rolls off and away we go. We stayed to the right because we were slower than other people who were making their way down the stairs. The staircase was wide enough so a lot of people could pass down it. But you know, the way the evac chair worked was you basically slid it down the stairs

and you held it and controlled it so it didn't topple over or whatever. So we controlled it, got it to the landing, you move to the next landing and down you go, sliding it. So you just kept sliding, holding, moving and you just kept doing that down each staircase. We were slower so people were passing by us, but that was fine. The great thing was the

staircase was so much better than in 1993. It was so early in the morning that hardly anybody was at work so we were moving well down the staircase. What were you having as far as communication? Were you hearing evacuate? You talked about the updated lights and speakers in there now. Yeah, honestly I don't remember any communication within the staircase. The lights were on which was wonderful. The whole way down we had lights so we didn't have to worry about tripping

or any dangerous things in that regard. But as far as announcements go, there were no announcements. I heard the story of what happened in the South Tower where they made an announcement that maybe they regretted because they informed the South Tower of what was happening in the North Tower and some of the South Tower people took it incorrectly. So maybe they just, or maybe they were evacuating themselves and they were away from making any announcements.

I don't know what the story was, but I don't remember hearing any announcements. Any information we ever got was when we got lower and we are encountering the firefighters and they had radios and they had information through their radio system. Now obviously there's that iconic yet tragic picture of the firefighter ascending when everyone else is descending and that you can see the kind of fear in his eyes and which

shows how courageous it was. What do you remember as far as the interaction with the firefighters that you saw climbing? Two or three things in particular. We began encountering them in the floors of the 30s. And I always say I gained a much greater appreciation of what firefighters do because they had close to 80 pounds of equipment, big iron picks, helmets, air packs, and they were walking

up. I mean, you walk up without 80 pounds of equipment, any kind of staircase, it's not a particularly easy thing to do, but they were walking up and they weren't going up there to rescue like their family or friends. They were going to rescue people like me that they didn't even know. All of other observations is in one instance as they were going up, I kind of in a very stupid moment asked one of them, is the building stable? And it was when I thought later it

was kind of a stupid thing to ask because they're going up into danger zone. I'm going down and I'm asking them if there's a problem. But you know, your mind just isn't the same when you're in kind of that emergency situation. But the one thing that drove home how heroic, I mean, some of them were slumped against the side of the staircase, just sitting against the wall, breathing real heavy, just catching their breath and then picking themselves up

and moving further up. So, you know, to me, it just they were undaunted. And, you know, I give them all the credit in the world for, you know, they say 343 New York City firefighters died, scores of other volunteer firefighters died. So, you know, for them and World Trade Operations people who are guiding them all the credit in the world for what they tried to do.

Absolutely. It's absolutely heartbreaking. Yeah, that that three, four, three, obviously is a very powerful yet tragic number in our profession, even to this day. Yeah, I mean, I thought later of the fact that they were embarking on something that probably wasn't ever attempted before in firefighter history, going to the top of the tallest building in the world and trying to either to put out a fire and rescue people. It's just, you know, mind boggling.

Yeah. And even just look at the magnitude of the flames, you know, what we're able to do with the limited tools that you would take up to a high rise fire. I mean, you hook it up to a standpipe. I'm sure a lot of them were thinking this. I don't think we're going to be able to even make a dent in this. So, you know, I mean, the fact that they went up there purely for the rescue side, knowing as far as extinguishment, it probably wasn't going to happen. I think adds to the to the courage.

Yeah. And and there were audio accounts that some reached the 78th floor, which is absolutely amazing. 100 percent. Well, speaking of floors, talk to me again about the fatigue and where where were you finally able to get out? Which floor did you exit on? Well, we we were moving fairly well doing our rotations on the evac chair. And when we got into the floors of the 40s, though, it got hotter in the staircase we were in. But

we were all veterans of the building. We knew there were three other staircases and we took a guess that if we went into one of the other staircases, it might be cooler. And as it turned out, when we did switch at the 44th floor into the other staircase, the other staircase was cooler. And that helped us because we were sweating a lot and we were really

beginning to struggle some. So getting into that cooler staircase was good for us. As we were going down that staircase, I had mentioned we got into the floors of the 30s and actually that's when as we were going down, the firefighters were moving up. They would pass us occasionally, but constantly going up same staircase. I understand now in the new One World Trade Center, they have a dedicated staircase for first responders. So not I mean, I'm sure

it makes it easier for them. We had a comfort level of of, you know, knowing that they were in our staircase, but I'm sure it helps them to have a dedicated staircase. We went further down and when we reached the 21st floor, we were we're doing okay. We were going to, you know, carry it out and go all the way down. But at the 21st floor, they stopped us and

they asked us to go onto the floor. It was a police command center floor. And the reason that they told us was that they were moving equipment up in the staircase we were in. And since we were kind of wide, we would be blocking that equipment. So when we just go on the floor for a short time, when the equipment cleared, then we could get back in the staircase. We said, okay, we they asked if we wanted to leave John with them. There were other

handicapped people on that police command center floor. We said, no, you know, once we got back in the staircase would take John the rest of the way down. We were on the 21st floor, I would say less than five minutes when the building violently shook again. And I wasn't near a window and I didn't see it. But later on, I found out that that was the south tower collapsing down. Shortly after that, we're allowed to reenter the staircase

to go the rest of the way down. And as we were going down, I remember the only panicking moment we had in the staircases. And that was when we reached the 10th floor and everything stopped in the staircase. Some of my co-worker buddies had heard on the firefighters and ops people's radio that tower two was down. So they I didn't hear it. I was kind of tuned

out of that. But they heard it. And they started to shout that we got to get moving. We got to get moving because I believe that they thought, you know, our tower would be next. So we were only stalled a short time and then we did begin to get moving. And I don't know what the holdup was, but we were moving and we continue to move down the rest of the way. I remember us getting into the lower floors where there was a lot of more water and debris

in the staircase. We got to the lobby. I remember broken windows in the lobby. We went through the door and we made it to the street. The one thing that shocked me when we got to the street was there was nobody out there. I remember 1993 when there was a lot of fire trucks, ambulances, police cars, people running around. And I didn't know why nobody would be out there. I didn't know the other tower was down. We were walking. We were carrying John at

that point north to on the street called West Street. We got to our first corner. We met our first person. He said, you know, try to hustle northward. So we did. We kept going north on West Street. We would glance back at our tower and there was a lot of smoke and haze and what we thought was debris coming down. We went further north on West Street. We would look up and then we realized it wasn't debris coming down. It was people jumping

from the top of the tower. And, you know, that was a real difficult moment, I think, for all of us because, you know, we many of the people who were coming down and jumping were kind of just like us. They were workers. And, you know, to think that they were trapped and they had to end their life that way was really hurtful because, you know, successful

evacuation kind of was a time and place thing. If you were above the impact line of the plane or below the impact line of the plane like we were, we were below the plane's impact. You typically had a clear staircase and as long as time was on your side, you made it out. But for them, they were above the impact line of the plane. The plane literally, although it didn't topple the tower, it flew through the tower. So it wiped out all the four staircases

with either a big fire, too much smoke, maybe a steel beam. So they were trapped. And, you know, to literally either burn from behind or come down with the tower or jump from the tower. I mean, it's why, you know, when I see terrorism or violence in a lot of ways, it really hurts and hits home because so many innocent people did not have to die that way. 100%. I mean, there was that documentary, I think it was called The Falling Man. I think

they discovered that it was probably the chef from one of the restaurants at the top. But, yeah, I mean, that's just one, a single one. But I've had so many people on here that, yeah, most of them were first responders on the outside. And that is the one thing that really, really haunts them was the thumping of the bodies. Yeah. Sad story. Our executive director from the Port Authority was in Windows on the World

restaurant that morning for a business meeting. From what I understand, it was the first time he was ever in Windows on the World. He was the top executive on our company and he died there. We lost 78 people, but he was the top executive in the Port Authority. And it just goes to show how, you know, time and place, you know, it almost is part of what I went through early on in terms of, you know, we came out at 10.15 and the tower came down

at 10.28. And, you know, so many different kinds of thoughts go through your mind when that happens, you know, post event. And, you know, it's part of what I dealt with. When you were heading north before the North Tower fell, did you know that the South Tower had fallen and were you still kind of blocked by the North Tower at that point? I knew it only because I learned from my buddies that, you know, the other tower was already

down at that point. So, you know, although I didn't hear it on the radios, I heard it from them. So I then understood why the urgency. But at that point, when you exited, the streets didn't look like the images that we saw covered in certain ash. You know what it is? There was that, but somehow I was tuned out from it. I mean, I knew at that point, you know, the other tower was down. But it's like, you know, certain things

were just so shocking that day. And I can only describe it as when you're in an emergency situation, your mind is just not the same. And, you know, what can I say except that, you know, I did kind of notice it, but it wasn't really hitting home for me. And how far away had you got before the tower actually fell behind you? We were about four or five blocks away when the ground started to rumble. And you look up and the giant cloud is coming at you. It's like as high as you can see, and it's all

wide. And your human instinct is just get out of its way. So we grabbed John, we got into the school, Stuyvesant school, and we closed the door behind us. And then I remember looking through the glass window of the door, it got like gray and very gray and pitch black. And that was our tower that we had all worked in that was coming down at that point. So we were a good enough distance away and fortunately ducked into the school, which helped us out a whole lot.

I saw a video recently, I don't know why it pops up. Is this some of the history websites that I follow or pages on social media? And it was just that it was a woman that was out on the street. And I think it was like a Greek deli or something like that. And they basically grabbed her, pulled her in, told everyone to get away from the windows. And that was seconds before the cloud went past. I think the windows maybe broke, I forget now, but they saved their life just by pulling in.

I want to kind of segue to that. One of the things that I think is so powerful about the tragedy of 9-11, and this could be later in the day or 9-12 as people refer to, but the community, the heroism, the selflessness, as this kind of day unfolded, what were the stories or the moments that you remember of the New Yorkers coming together, regardless of race, color, creed, religion, etc.? Well, I heard this one number when I was volunteering at the Tribute Museum that over half a million

people ultimately came to New York City to help. Half a million people is a lot of people. And they brought with them, some of them brought truckloads of food, drink, and materials. Others just brought themselves because they were electricians or they were welders or they were, so they had skills. Other people were maybe Red Cross or Salvation Army people or sanitation people or first responders, and they all came. And these were in the days

following. The day of 9-11, I went to the hospital with John because he needed to be checked out. And so I spent the rest of 9-11 in a hospital with him. So we were kind of in a hospital room without much of anything. So we were kind of, again, insulated from everything that was immediately happening there. But ultimately, so many people came to help. And maybe they stayed a week or they stayed a month and then they eventually left.

But it was a 24-7 operation. They ultimately put up lights and they were eventually brought in trucks and they were lifting materials and they were working day and night to try to find bodies. They knew after 24 hours that rescue had turned into recovery. But still, Americans worked those shifts and went into that pile. And you know the story about how many got sick and are still sick from illnesses that they got by going into that pile.

Yeah. I think it surpassed the number of, at least FDNY, the number has surpassed the number that we lost that day. Yep. Yep. That's absolutely true. And it began to bother me a little bit that the USEPA said the site was safe. I do remember when they came out with that, because the former governor of New Jersey was the governor who was the head of the EPA at that point. And I remember the statements and reading about what she declared. And people acted upon what they

thought was valid information. And thinking back, maybe they would have approached it differently. I don't know. But it just said that that all occurred. What about the community of New York, the people? After being attacked, I'll give you a kind of parallel. When 7-7 happened in London, all the bombs on the buses and the underground, I watched that city come together and kind of really a big fuck you to the terrorists

because they went back to work. They went back to school. They just did, you know, obviously not everyone. Some I'm sure were more traumatized. But it was kind of that, you know, stiff upper lip British mentality. And it was exactly that. I'm sure the people behind that watching TV going, oh, everything's just come back to normal or close to aside from obviously the acute areas where these happen. What did you see as far as the community of the New Yorkers the weeks and the months after that?

I mean, it was one of the great periods in my life about how people began to sort of care more for each other, would do small things that would show human interest. And whether it was driving, whether it was walking on the street, whether it was getting out of the way of somebody or whatever. I mean, people had sort of turned the corner in realizing that we're all human beings that need to be treated in a very positive kind of way. So

in New York and New Jersey, where I live, that was all happening. And that was great to see. Ultimately, it dissipated and it got more of the usual day to day kind of rigor. But for the time that people kind of changed, it was a wonderful change to see. And I was proud that people used to see on the TV, they would put little memorials on their

fire escapes and just the small things that were happening were very uplifting. And as an individual who survived, not just because I survived, but just seeing people taking extra care for each other made me very happy to see that. Why do you think it is that that started to become lost? I think a very acute moment that I remember was John Stewart's speech. And obviously he was just a figurehead of a movement

that was much, much bigger than him. But it really did sway, I think. But it made us realize, the rest of us that were oblivious, that there was an opposition to even helping these families of these first responders who were dying from this cancer. So how did we get from that gratitude, thank you for your service, community based element to there, and I would argue maybe even worse to today where those lessons seem to have been completely forgotten again.

The only thing I could attribute it to is that when people began to care more for each other, they may have realized that how quickly your life can be snuffed out, that one day you're alive and the next day 3,000 people are gone or it could be worse. And so just the reality of how precious life is, I think, hit people. And it made them realize that if your life ended tomorrow, act like a good person today. As far as where we are today

and why it might be forgotten is a little hard to decipher. I mean, you know, maybe young people growing up didn't experience it and maybe their families didn't share enough about it. Maybe in school they didn't teach enough about it. And maybe that's why they take a less focused view about it. What I say from my own standpoint is as a survivor and as a person who experienced it, I just do my very best to try to share it, to explain

it, to answer questions about it. In the remaining life that I have, that's what I choose to do because I think it's important. And it's not just because it's historical, because it's emotional and it's personal. I mean, you know, I was able to go home and be with family, be with friends, be with coworkers, but so many thousands of people and you multiply it by their family, their friends, their coworkers, their Delhi friends, their neighbors next

door. You know, you multiply that by the thousands of people that were affected by 9-11 and you realize how overwhelming a thing it was. So I just continue to try personally to try to care about it and teach about the aspect of caring about people because I personally deem it's important that violence and terror and all of that is not the way that human beings should be apart from your religion or apart from anything else. We have no right to do

any of that or violent, even what I see today that's happening all around. It shouldn't be happening to other human beings. I couldn't agree more. And this was so strange is that if you try and have that conversation and you're not subscribing all the way from one extreme or the other, that humanity piece is, no one wants to hear it. You know, the suffering and, you know, whatever example, Ukraine, Russia, Israel, Palestine, whatever the thing, it's the suffering that we're opposed

to. You know, the root cause of these wars are most likely going to be about power and greed. But all these people that are subjected to this, you know, this is the real atrocity. And so, yeah, no matter where on the planet it is, it's about stopping human suffering. Yeah. I mean, I meet people in the museums that I volunteer from all over the world and I tell them, you know, I'm no different than you. You know, you're from Argentina or you're

from, you know, Great Britain or you're from, you know, Africa. And it doesn't matter. We're all just trying to live a life and we all should care about each other and not trying to end lives. And, you know, like you say, a lot of it is over greed or over power or over things that really in many cases, you know, are kind of inconsequential. So, you know, but it is what it is. Well, as you mentioned, this was obviously a very traumatic event for you and an emotional

journey. Where did that take you mentally yourself? Where were your kind of lows kind of processing this? And then what were some of the tools you started using to be able to grow from this? Well, early on, it hit me pretty hard. And the fortunate thing was my company, the Port Authority, offered both one on one counseling and group counseling. And I took advantage of it because I really felt, you know, it was affecting me kind of terribly. I was able

to do my job and carry on my day to day life. But, you know, mentally, I wasn't in the place that I thought I should be. So, you know, two times in my life I had psychological counseling and after 9-11 was one of them. So I took the counseling. And I think the greatest thing that it taught me was that, you know, you may try to understand what happened and you're likely going to fail because you're not going to understand why the people did what they

did for whatever reasons they did. But the critical thing is to experience acceptance because, you know, in my case, my life didn't end. My life continues. So if I continue to battle it the rest of my life, you know, it's kind of a losing battle. So I just accept it and it hit home with me and so much so that I kind of did a 180 and I began to realize

that I could make something more positive out of the rest of my life. So that's when my company, we have this every 9-11, we have a remembrance program called Remembrance to Renewal. And we do these one day remembrance things where you volunteer at a soup kitchen or at a church or at a community garden or and you help out. Well, one of the opportunities they offered was to volunteer for the 9-11 Tribute Museum. But that wasn't a one day

event. It was a commitment of going through a training program, learning to handle being a tour guide, sharing your personal story and moving indefinitely forward as a volunteer. So I was up for it and I joined and it was one of the great things that happened in my life because I began to share about it. I was never, I was okay with doing it. I was, you know, nothing was holding me back, you know, from sharing about my experiences and

I try to encourage people. I try to, you know, particularly younger people stress how important it is to care and help people. So, you know, for me that psychological help was big and it really transformed me into being a volunteer and moving forward my life in a way that I felt was positive and it really was, as I said, kind of a crossroads in my life and allowed me to sort of take a deep breath and move on.

I love what you said about acceptance because you, you know, you had a near death experience. As you said, you do the math. It was simply a roll of the dice. What floor your office was on on that day and had the plane a little bit lower, you know, I might not be here talking to you. Exactly. So to be given the rest of that life, you know, a second chance, whatever you want to want to phrase it as, and then allow the trauma that happened to dampen your experience

through that life is a disservice to that chance that you were given. Now it's obviously a kind of profound thought for someone who's struggling at the moment, but it is a great concept. You were given X amount of months or years, so live them to the fullest. You know, if you're going through some stuff, get the health, do the work and then, you know, use those years to do good in the world rather than allow that trauma to keep crushing you every day.

The only language I learned in school and I didn't really learn it was Latin and there's a Latin saying called carpe diem, live for the day. And I thought I was doing that all along, but I really realized after the counseling that, you know, that was important for me to do. Absolutely. Well, talk to me about the memorial because the one that I visited, I believe is the most recent one, it's by the fountains and you go down underneath into the subterranean

parking. What was the first one, you know, how was that created? And then let's talk about how that ended up being closed down as well. Okay. I think what you're referring to is the first museum I volunteered for. It's called the tribute museum, was started by a ex firefighter who lost his son and a recovery worker and they banded together. They started the 9-11 tribute museum. They got a, they started the museum across the street from the world trade center site and they started with developing

a gallery of exhibit items and then they began doing walking tours. And as a, as a volunteer, I coupled that with continuing my work career and my company was good enough about allowing me to volunteer maybe a couple of times, few times every month to do the walking tours and be a gallery guide. So I did that for 13 years with them. And then the pandemic hit in the meantime, about four years prior to the pandemic, they had moved to four blocks

south. So they were kind of a little bit away from the site and, you know, but they were maintaining good traffic flows and good visitor content for, for doing the, you know, us having visitors for the walking tours. But once the pandemic hit and everything shut down, basically the rebound effect was very slow. You know, visitors coming into the U S no international visitors, which was the primary source of the visitors who came to and took our tours.

So that almost ended completely. And the landlord was apparently okay with delaying the lease payments, but didn't forgive it. So we unfortunately had a huge debt that was just mounting and mounting and then they just had to call it a day at one point. So they closed the museum eliminated the walking tours and that was it. Many of the exhibits were sent to the state museum in Albany and that ended the 9 11 tribute museum. And we've, we've tried

to get it resurrected in certain ways. A bunch of us volunteer still remain in connection with each other. So, you know, but the reality is to have a museum or really any kind of organized walking tour setup is, is literally, you know, more than a million dollars every year. So you're not going to get that in the fees you charge. So you need either corporate help or governmental funding. And we wrote letters and we tried, but it didn't wind up

in getting the financial help that was needed. So 9 11 tribute museum closed. Prior to that, I believe it was around 2012 or 13 was when the national museum opened the 9 11 Memorial and Museum, you know, was, is funded by the federal government. It's funded by major grants and has financial footing that allows them to, you know, continue to do what they

do within their museum and within, you know, maintaining the outer Memorial. I initially didn't join them, but ultimately I did go to their training program and have now joined

them as a volunteer at the 9 11 Memorial and Museum. There's a difference as a volunteer first at tribute, we were involved in what we call person to person history, which is more my realm and more where I feel comfortable with, or is the national museum that I live in Memorial Museum is more exhibit driven is more programs and less personal type interactions. So I'm doing okay there. I still have some good one on one conversations with people.

And I also now volunteer at the Intrepid Museum and I volunteer for education first and for tunnel to towers. So I'm trying to find my way back in terms of what's situated best for me as an individual in terms of volunteerism. The thing about the national museum, you know, the Memorial was beautiful. You said you were there. You said you went into the museum, you know, the reflecting absence pools sit right on the footprints of each of the two

towers and it really is well done with all the 400 or so trees that are there. The names surrounding each of the reflecting absence pools. If you go there in the evening, the walls light up at night, the flow of the water. I mean, you know, you couldn't have a more

beautiful memorial than what they set up. And the museum is equally powerful. I mean, in terms of the exhibits that they have there on the survivor stairs, the last column, the different things that the national museum brought in and the programs that they bring in or are very powerful and very attractive for visitors. With all the interactions that you've had, the first responders, obviously, that was

their job. Now, over and above that, the courage within the uniform is unquestionable. But I think where there's a lot of power as well is the civilians that showed incredible courage. So what are some of the stories that really resonated with you about the heroism of people, whether they made it out or maybe didn't even make it out themselves? Well, I knew of one other handicapped person who worked in our company. And she was like

a smaller woman than John was. John was a big guy. And, you know, we needed the kind of power of multiple guys to get him down. But this other woman worked, I think, on a floor above us or two floors above us. And the story I heard was, whereas we had 10 people, only two or three people carried her evacuee chair down. So for those individuals, I mean, so much, you know, great courage on their part to probably have worked a whole lot harder

than we worked, but yet accomplished the same evacuation success. I mean, kudos to them. There's the one individual, the Red Bandana guy, I forget his name, that was on a really high floor. And he was guiding individuals to safety constantly, you know, minute by minute, hour by hour, would get a group down, go back up, guide and get more down. And, you know, the courage that he had, and ultimately sacrificing his life in terms of doing it,

I understand they have, I think, a run and walk every annual period for him. They have a football game every annual period in his honor. And there's an individual who did his level best. There were individuals in my company and police officers like Will Jimeno, who, you know, they just went ahead, they plunged ahead to try to help, and they didn't care about their own lives. Police officers and civilian employees of my company did that,

and they died doing that. And two of the people who I first started at the Port Authority with, they were in World Trade Operations. One guy was Gene Ragione, the other guy Ken Grizzales. And, you know, when I heard that they died, and they were two of the many Port Authority people who died, I was saddened, you know, to a great extent. But then I picked

myself up. And I said, well, knowing those two individuals, they would stay to the bitter end and they would continue to try to help because that was the character of who they were. So those are some of the people that I remember either hearing about or knowing personally that I really, you know, give so much credit to. Well, speaking of companies that did the right thing, I shared the cancer Fitzgerald story

a few weeks ago. So talk to me from a corporate point of view, some of the stories of companies that really took care of the families of the people that have been lost. Well, cancer Fitzgerald was, you know, the biggest, I think, in terms of loss, but also in terms of I believe their leader survived and he made it his mission to continue to help the families. There was another company, I think something in McDermott that lost about

300 or 400 people. And they were another company that gave commitment to never forgetting the families of those who were lost. The one company I volunteer, or organization that I volunteer for now, Tunnel to Towers, is now in the mode of building special constructed homes for first responders who were injured but still alive and need specially constructed homes.

They also build homes for or pay off the mortgages for families who lost their caregiver, their provider, and, you know, so that they don't have to worry about a mortgage for the rest of their lives. Tunnel to Towers is really strong in doing that. There are other companies too that I'm aware of. There was one company that drew the 9-11 Tribute Museum would come annually and have an award ceremony for employees who demonstrated some kind of great success

for their company. And they were out west, but they flew those individuals to New York who were winners of this week in New York City where they celebrate, they honor the victims that they had who were lost, and in turn honor their current employees, fly them across to New York for a week where they do experience the 9-11 Museum and the memorial, but they also maybe get to spend a week in New York that they never would have otherwise

spent their entire lifetime. So that's another example of something I know where a company is another one was Federal Express who had, I think, 11 employees who died and they put up this beautiful memorial across the street in the World Financial Center that honored those 11 employees that died on 9-11. And I remember when we used to do the walking tours, that was always one of our stopping points to check out for our visitors the American

Express 9-11 Memorial across the street in the World Financial Center. So I'm sure there's countless others who, I know we were talking before about those who don't remember, but there are plenty who still do remember. Yeah, absolutely. That's what struck me about the cancer Fitzgerald story, because if I remember rightly, they put the children of the people that were lost through college and I think there was also an offer for employment by the company for all the children as well.

So phenomenal. Absolutely. Absolutely awesome. Well, you mentioned tunnel the towers. I was in New York a few years ago and I actually climbed one World Trade with a Marine who lost both legs serving. And it was quite funny because I paid an extra suitcase to ship all my fire gear over there. And then we got there, they were like, no, because it had just opened up security was super, super tight. So we had to just do it in regular and I felt like a fraud then I'm doing it in shorts and a

t-shirt. And then this guy's bear crawling 100 floors and I'm, you know, walking but it was it was really tough. Yeah, it was probably the stairwell that the first responders use I would imagine as well that we were climbing. But such an amazing organization and Steven Silas or Steven Silas, excuse me, parents were at the top waiting for us when we got there too. Yeah, we just had the the 5k run and walk a few weeks back. And, you know, I kind of

experienced it the same thing. I mean, I'm walking over to it was about two miles from where the ferry let us off to where the tunnel started. You know, and I'm seeing an individual sitting in a bus shelter, taking off his or readjusting his artificial limb. You know, the limb was off and he's readjusting it. And I'm kicking myself in the head and saying, hey, this guy's about to do the 5k run and walk. And I didn't even run it. I walked it.

And, you know, in the same vein, the people who walk up one world, you know, who run up one world trade, and I heard the fastest ones do it in 25 minutes. And I'm saying, I don't think I can even finish it, let alone the fire gear. And there's people who do it in 25 minutes. But some of this is all amazing. Yeah, there was a very powerful moment. Well, speaking of that, did the Port Authority go into one world trade or did they end up moving to a different place?

They actually wound up in four world trade. We were displaced. I mean, the fortunate part was we were a bi-state agency. So, you know, just taking you back the following day when John got an ambulance home that took him home to Queens and I was able to make my way home to New Jersey. I actually went and stopped at the business recovery site, which started

the next day because we had a New Jersey office where business recovery can resume. So I went just to hug my coworkers and let them know I was still alive and John was still alive. But business recovery for us was OK because we had other office locations where some people lost literally everything and had no other location. So yeah, it was significant to kind of bounce back in a business way in addition to a personal

way for all of us. And the Port Authority had offices, I think, on Madison Avenue and Park Avenue. And then ultimately when Tower 4 was constructed, we didn't move into Tower 1. We moved into Tower 4 and took over and became an anchor tenant in Tower 4, the new Tower 4. So they're the new anchor tenant in Tower 4. The way it worked, though, was the Port Authority decided to allow department heads to determine whether they move to Fort

World Trade or stay where they were. And my director in my department decided he preferred to stay in New Jersey. So we remained in New Jersey and did not, my department did not move back to the World Trade Center. So the latter part of my career, I spent in New Jersey rather than in New York. But other Port Authority employees moved to the new headquarters, which was now Fort World Trade Center.

Well, I want to throw some closing questions at you. But before I do, is there any other area that you want to make sure that we discuss before we close out? First, as a movement or a path forward, I've made it kind of my own personal commitment to be a volunteer and to, you know, now 23 years after the attacks, continue to try to share stories, educate, and most of all, remember the people who lost their lives so innocently

or tragically that particular day. So it's my personal commitment to have remembrance, but also to kind of do what I can in terms of education, too, for people who weren't alive. I run into so many young kids who weren't alive and schools teach it, but maybe there's ways that I could share or I could answer their questions that could help them to kind

of relate to it a little bit better. So I have made it my commitment to not only to share with adults, but also to try to educate younger people about it and answer their questions. And you know, you have one lifetime and if I could utilize it in a way that is positive, that's what I wish to do. I remain a hopeful individual. I mean, I really hope World Trade Center, there never has to be another World Trade Center. There never has to be the kind

of terrorism. You know, you mentioned about 7-7 in London and that's my birthday. And it's like, I'll always remember London and I shouldn't have to remember London for that reason, but it happened on my birthday. But I really hope that no one has to go through

what we went through and maybe doesn't have to lose individuals. And so what I tend to talk particularly to younger people is about helping rather than hurting because your world is going to be a much better place and you're going to have much more positivity if you care about people and you try to be helpful rather than hurtful. I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. And obviously coming from the tribulations

that you've gone through, I think that makes your voice even more powerful. So thank you for that. I think it's not just major terrorism or attacks or disasters. It's the common things that you see kind of happening around too. You know, the street corner violence, you know, the knifing attacks, the guns. I mean, you know, it's not a world that we're going to

all survive if that continues. So let's get back to caring about people. You could disagree with people, but it doesn't mean you have to take their life. Absolutely. Yeah. Community is important. I think we've seen a lot of deliberate division and pigeonholing. And I think that if we can have an awakening and realize our shared humanity, that would go a long way. Yeah. Yeah. And I could disagree with you, but it doesn't mean I have to hate you. It

doesn't mean I have to be violent against you. We just kind of go our separate ways and you know, life should move on that way. And I mean, I'm proud from the fact that I've always kind of been that way. I never, you know, one of the difficulties I had with my dad was he wanted me to join the military and I didn't see myself picking up a gun and

shooting and maybe, you know, killing other people. I mean, I understand. I give so much credit to yourself and the other people who, you know, care and really, you know, protect our country, but just individually, I guess I was cut out a little bit differently. Absolutely. Yeah. That's why I chose firefighting. I was, my dad wanted me to go in the military.

He wanted me to be a PTI, so physical training instructor. So it wasn't like he wanted me on the battleground specifically, but yeah, it was the fire because that's, if you look at that section of the first responders, we're helping, you know, the law enforcement as well, but they have to arrest, they have to shoot sometimes as part of the job. But for

us, usually we're rescuing. Yeah. And as I said, I gained much greater appreciation for your profession because of seeing those firefighters go right next to me and continue to go up. I never had that experience in my life and it was so powerful for me. Well, I want to throw some quick closing questions at you before I let you go. The first one I love to ask, is there a book or are there books that you love to recommend? It can be related to what we've discussed

today or completely unrelated? Well, we were part of a couple of books. One of them is called Never Forget and the other one is called 102 Minutes. I think 23 years later those books may not be available, but if they are, they do kind of shed light on not only our story with my group, but many other stories and many other first person

accounts. So they are, you know, powerful stories. And to me, you know, particularly for young people who may want a bit of an education about it more than what the school may be teaching them, those books, you know, might be able to do it for them. There's also movies. There's movies. I think the one that Will Jimeno was in, you know, there's a movie about that. The World Trade Center. I worked on that. I was actually a glorified firefighter extra on that film.

Nice. Nice. I mean, so, you know, there are different media accounts that do cover important, you know, first person experiences both that day and in the days that follow. I had Jules and Gérion Norde on the show. Those are the two French brothers. The 9-11. Wow. Wow. Yeah. They talk about being in a spot you never expected to be. And I mean, they're the prime example of that, right? I mean, they were just shooting a documentary

or something and they were thrust into moment by moment stuff that was happening. And, you know, that one, I think it's an epic shot of, I think it was them where our tower was already hit and they looked up and saw the second tower being hit. I mean, that was amazing. Yeah, absolutely. They're very powerful and they're incredible men. They did one on the Bataclan shooting the attacks in Paris and then they did one on the Notre Dame fire as

well. So each of their documentaries has been excellent. And I always, not always, but I mentioned about the other Frenchman who had his connection to World Trade Center, which was Philippe Petit, who walked the line. I mean, you know, a lot of young people don't know that he walked back and forth eight times and at one point he laid on his back on the wire. This is a hundred stories above ground. And to do that with a pole, I mean, you talk about mental strength and I mean, there's movies about

that. It amazes me till today. Yeah. I think is it Man on a Wire? I think it is a documentary. Man on a Wire. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Incredible. It's awesome. All right. Well, speaking of amazing people, is there a person that you recommend to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first responders, military and associated professions of the world? Well, you know, the one I would love for you to speak to is my friend John, who we helped

rescue. Unfortunately, I've tried being in, I was in pretty regular communication with him by phone and he, you know, I think something may have occurred because he hasn't answered my calls in about four to six months, but he's a type of individual because I've invited him to do the visitor tours or to be a gallery guide with me. But he just declined on that.

And I understood it because of his handicap and his disability. It's difficult for him, but maybe from a first person, you know, survival standpoint, he would be if I ever could reestablish contact with him, be sure to pass his name along to you. You know, he doesn't do a lot of personal stuff, but he may be willing to do, you know, a call. Absolutely. Other than that, I mean, there may be, there's not one individual that comes to mind in terms of, you know, my buddy Gene, who passed, he

worked for World Trade Operations. You know, he was one of the victims of 9-11. But survivor wise, just, you know, possibly some of the people now who have worked in the recovery period. I don't have any names that I could throw out to you, but to me, those people were very heroic, as it turned out, you know, and they tried to bring closure to families.

And you know, I remember each night seeing the glowing fire burning from the rubble of World Trade Center and it burned for six months, yet people went in there day and night to try to clean and recover bodies. And to me, if any of those people remain alive, their heroism should be honored. So if I come across any of those names, I would be sure to let you know, because to me, they got sick and they're making the ultimate sacrifice.

Absolutely. Yeah, please do. I would love to get someone like that on. Thank you. Okay. So within the very last question, before we make sure people know where to find you, what do you do to decompress? Well, I mentioned before about being a Rangers fan. So I go to hockey games. I sit up in the upper tier and you know, hockey to me is fast. It's action, it's hitting, it has a lot of everything. So hockey has always been an excitement for me. But I like movies

too. I mean, for me, you know, I like kind of stupid comedy movies because it's uplifting for me. So I like dramas too, but the comedy ones, you know, really get to me and lift me. And I go to concerts. I'm a British rock and roll fan. So, you know, Thompson Twins, Duran Duran, you know, I saw a guy Howard Jones a few weeks ago. I'm a follower of bands from the 80s. And I think it was the greatest generation of music and mostly British. I'm

not really too big a fan of local people like John Bon Jovi or Bruce Springsteen. They're all from New Jersey, but I never liked their music. I liked the British music. So, you know, I thought the police, my brother introduced me to the police and you know, the police to me were the greatest three man band ever. I mean, they did, you know, such great music when I was growing up. And, you know, so, you know, the British bands really did it

for me. So whenever I get an opportunity to listen or to go to concerts and a lot of the older artists are still performing here and there. So, you know, you do get to see them. So I'm happy for that. So, you know, those are the things. And, you know, I jog when mostly my health is pretty good. So I jog and stay active walking. And, you know, that kind of helps particularly during this time of year when the weather is cooler. It really,

you know, is uplifting for me. So, you know, I try to stay actively as a volunteer, you know, to move around. And, you know, I think moving around is really helping me as I approach my later years. So that's good for me. Excellent. Yeah, the bands that you reeled out was literally when I was a little boy. So I recognize all of them. Yeah, yeah. Eric Clapton too is another name that comes to mind. I mean, he was awesome

also. So, you know, but these are what I grew up with and I really enjoy. It's funny. I enjoyed more like international music than US or New Jersey music, but it's just turned out that way. Yeah, when I was little, I was listening to all the British bands, but then I got into my teens, I got into hip hop. So I'm a little English farm boy listening to people from, you know, New Jersey, New York and California.

So that's amazing how, you know, we're all individuals and we all have different, you know, things that kind of turn us on and you can't really put your finger on wire, but it works out. Absolutely. Well, again, it's that shared humanity. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. You should never lose that. 100%. What if people listening wanted to reach out to you, learn more about you? Are there any places online or on social media?

Yeah, I mean, I'm not really active on Facebook or Instagram or anything. My email address, if you want me to give that, they could reach out to me to my email address. If you'd like. Yeah, it's pbits2019 at gmail.com. So I'll endeavor to answer anybody who reaches out to me. And, you know, it's the one media. I was never really a technical person. So I never. And now with all the volunteering, I don't really have the time to be on social

media. So but emails I'll typically, you know, look at once a day. So if they were to reach out to me, that would be the one place where I could respond back to them. And, you know, like I said earlier, I mean, what I like, what I liked as a volunteer was the person the Tribute Museum did it the best with the person to person history. And I relate the best that way. And so whether it's an email or a person to person contact, I still hope as in the future to continue to remember and to share.

Beautiful. Well, I want to thank you so much. I mean, firstly, as I say to a lot of people, you know, when they're recounting on the show, some of the more traumatic moments of their life, I understand that it kind of opens the wound a little bit. But I hope it's also served as firstly, a reminder as you and I obviously on the same page, as far as the community and the humanity that we need to refine. But secondly, you know, educate our younger people

on what happened. And I think thirdly, a lot of us listening, you know, we've heard the responder stories over and over again. But I think this is the first time I've really heard someone that was literally working that day and saw it from a completely different perspective. So I want to thank you so, so much for your vulnerability and also for being so generous with your time and come on behind the shield podcast today.

Thank you so much, James. It was great talking to you and meeting you. And let's carry on positive every day as we move forward.