Pat Kenny - Episode 266

This episode of Behind the Shield podcast is brought to you by 511 Tactical, a company that I've used for well over a decade and they are offering you a 15% discount on every order. And I will tell you that code in just a moment, but I want to do another product highlight and I can testify as with the other ones through personal experience. I wore a 511 uniform way back when I worked for Anaheim Fire in California, so we're talking 13 years ago.

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And all you have to do is use the code shield at checkout at five 11 tactical.com. So once again, code shield at five 11 tactical.com. This episode is sponsored by life aid. Now life aid has several products, one of which I want to highlight because it's so pertinent to you, the sleep deprived audience. Their product focus aid is a healthy alternative to the energy drinks that I see so many of us relying on because we are exhausted. There's no other way of putting it.

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So that's L I F E A I D B E V C O dot com. Use the code shield, which is S H I E L D. And please try this. It's going to end up being less expensive than the drinks that you're using. And I'm telling you right now, it's an incredible product and please reach out and let me know what you think. Welcome to episode 266 of Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to bring to you Chief Pat Kenny.

Now I met Pat in San Antonio at the Rosecrans Florian Symposium, which is an incredible mental health conference for first responders. And then we actually talked at length a few weeks later when I was in my car over the phone. Now we were on the Bluetooth, my wife was next to me and I was literally in tears hearing him tell his story.

Now these tears were part sadness and empathy, but also part elation from some of the positive sides of some of the dark sides of his stories and what he's doing now. So an incredibly powerful interview that will certainly let a lot of people out there know they're not alone, but also he's a real beacon of light for what you can do with that trauma to turn it into positivity and create resilience within yourself.

So before we get to the interview, please take a moment, just go to your podcast app, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating. Five-star rating really does make this more visible to other people looking for this podcast and episodes like this one with Pat certainly need to be heard by everyone. And with that being said, also take your social media, email, word of mouth, carrier pigeon and share these incredible episodes.

This story in particular is going to resonate very deeply with many, many people. So without further ado, I introduce to you Chief Pat Kenny. Enjoy. So Pat, welcome to the behind the shield podcast. Well thanks very much, James. I look forward to speaking to you and hopefully to provide some information, maybe even just some hope for people who are out there that are struggling in areas dealing with mental health, either their own or in their own organizations or families. Thank you so much.

I mean, your story is incredibly powerful and obviously as a veteran of this service as well, I think there's going to be a lot of information for people to take from this. The first question, where are we finding you on planet earth today? So I'm the Fire Chief in Western Springs, Illinois. Western Springs is about 17 miles west of the city of Chicago. Brilliant. And going back to the very beginning then, so where were you born and what was your family dynamic?

Okay, so I was born in the city of Chicago. Some people will laugh and say, you have an accent. They'll say, I have an accent too. You sound like a guy from the south side of Chicago. And that's true. I grew up around Midway Airport there, very Irish Catholic family. Both my mom and dad were born in Ireland, actually lived about 15 miles apart from each other in Ireland. Never met there. They did a dance in Chicago.

Both were travelers to the United States with the intention to send money back to help out their families at home. Only child, which sounds completely contradiction to an Irish Catholic. I think that my parents were like, okay, one's enough when we've had you, but they actually had me later in life, especially at that point. So I grew up on the south side. I always joke about there were three pictures in our living room. There was a picture of John F. Kennedy. There was a picture of the pope.

And there was a picture of the original Mayor Daley. You didn't say anything negative about any of those three. You genuflected when you walked past those pictures. I never knew why, but you did. And it was powerful. So faith was very strong in our family and Irish heritage also was very, very strong. Grew up also very blessed. I had a godmother, my Aunt Mary, who lost her husband at a very early age. And she lived with us from the time I was an infant all the way until I was 25.

And to be very honest, if people like who I am today, she should get the credit for that because due to a number of circumstances, she really ended up raising me. So I came up through that family, spoiled, only child. But of course, if you're an Irish mother and you have an only child who's a male, your thinking is eventually and hope is he'll become a priest. So that was kind of my mom. She had already kind of mapped it out for me.

And so growing up, part of that spoiled part was consistently in my family, you were shown love by being fed. And so about the time I was in fourth grade, I was pretty large. And so when your name is Pat and you're fat, it's a little ugly in terms of a lot of the grief that you take. My dad was an all Ireland hurler, which is a sport in Ireland that's revered and a great athlete and by fourth grade, I'm not showing any of that. I'm having trouble walking and chewing gum.

And thank goodness, somewhere around sixth grade, I think God felt sorry for me and said, we better have some of these things kick in. And I became very athletic and had a chance to go to high school on a scholarship for baseball and football. And that was kind of my dream is that here's where I'm going to go. And I had already kind of in my mind, mapped out my future of what I was going to do. I was going to be a professional, either baseball player or football player.

I actually even had figured out that there were two different kinds of cheerleaders who watched baseball or football. And so I'd have the prettiest girl for the baseball game and the prettiest girl for the football game. Not necessarily the same girl, but so I was I'm good. And there would be my dad sitting in the stands and would be my hero watching me.

And in the summer between eighth grade and freshman year, when I was supposed to go and then hopefully obtain these scholarships, I was in a car accident. I was actually going to buy a new pair of cleats and was on my way coming back from the store with my buddies. And there were two lanes of traffic stopped and we cut through the middle of the traffic.

What we didn't realize was there was a gravel shoulder on the one side and a car decided he didn't want to wait and came speeding up that side shoulder to make a turn. I never saw him. The only thing I remember is a yellow streak. And so he caught me. The front bumper caught my right knee and smashed into the left one. And I luckily spun along the car rather than going under the car.

And I remember waking up looking at the tailpipe going, I was just a bad dream and sat up and then saw this crowd and realized I couldn't feel anything from my waist down. Took me to the hospital and ended up that my right knee was shattered in 12 places, my left in eight. I tore the ligaments in my left knee pretty bad. And they didn't have arthroscopic surgery back then. So it was you were in these toe to hip casts and loads of rehab.

And obviously the dream of playing competitive sports, especially at any kind of professional level that was out the door. They weren't sure at that point that I would walk again. So physical therapy started some depression for me at that point was obviously there. I started high school.

The first day of high school was Halloween, which when you're a freshman coming in and everybody else has kind of been through the whole freshman thing and you are now the target it was a little bit ugly on the crutches and but it was getting better. And I was starting to get determined that wonderful Aunt Mary was that voice and people do have the power. Sometimes I hear people say, well, one voice can't carry a group. Yeah, you can. She did. She was like, you can do this. You can come back.

You can make it. And I was starting to get a little bit more hopeful. Day after Christmas, my dad loved duck. That was kind of the famous dinner that my mom always made on special occasions for him. I wasn't a big fan, but he loved it. And he could not eat his dinner. And I heard him then in the bathroom a little while later throwing up. And my dad was very rarely ever sick. So I knocked on the bathroom door and he opened the door.

And I remember vividly in the kitchen or in the bathroom sink were blood clots. And I was like, Dad, we need to call the ambulance. And he was like, yeah, you probably do. Now I should have known that that was the first red flag because my dad never went to the doctor. He old country Irish didn't trust the doctors, didn't want to go. So the thought of him calling an ambulance, huge shock at that point. But we did.

Chicago Fire came loaded in on the stretcher and as they're heading out the door, he blocked the door with his arms. My dad was a big guy at that point. He had been very athletic, but now was very heavy and but huge and strong. He blocked the door with his arms. And I remember he got tears in his eyes and I had only seen my dad cry one other time. And it was when he lost his brother. And he looked at me and he said, I'll never be back here again.

I was like, no, dad, I go, it's just I know you're a little scared, but it's just you they're going to go to the hospital and fix you up. This is fine. So he went went to the hospital on the 26th of December. And on January 1st, he died of a massive hemorrhage in his stomach. And it turned out that he had had stomach cancer. Never said a word, never went to the doctor.

When you went back and put things together later, realized that he had been drinking pretty heavily the last six months when he especially on the weekends, but would drink when he came home at night from work to and the doctor said, yeah, he was trying to kill the pain. I can't imagine how much misery he was in because he said we were going to have to take out his entire stomach and try to treat this. That would have been the first line of defense. It was so far along.

So in this span of really from July to January, I had gone on from having this entire my life mapped out in this most positive heroic version in my hero in the stands to not wondering if I'd ever be able to play anything again, let alone walk in the guy that I really wanted to see me do it the most was gone. And I was crushed completely. I went back to school after my dad's funeral. And about a week afterwards, I went to the bus that we took from the high school went by the cemetery.

So I got off the bus on a very cold. It was I remember was a bright sunny day. It had snowed the day before. It was really, really cold outside. The wind chill was in the teens and get off the bus with my bag, bag of books and the walk from the bus stop down along the street to get into the cemetery and back to where he was was my mile maybe maybe a little bit more than that. And I hadn't been doing a whole lot of walking for any distances at that point. And I didn't care.

So I just walked all the way back to where his grave wasn't. It was still where you could see it easily because it was the only brown dirt around the snow and put my bag down and said, I came here to die. And I laid down to commit suicide. I figured if I laid there long enough, it'd be cold enough and I'd die. And I always tell people look at suicide as being a very selfish act. And what were they thinking of? They had a wonderful wife and children. They had a wonderful job.

They had a wonderful all sorts of stuff. I can just tell you standing back now as a parent and a spouse to think that I could lose my spouse unexpectedly in a five day period and then maybe two weeks later have my kid, my only child kill themselves. The devastation that that would do. But I can honestly tell you that was never on my radar. Not even a thought. All I thought was I'm in this incredible pain. My life is nothing but black with no hope.

And the one person that I cared about the most was somewhere that I really believed and I wanted to go there. And I didn't care if there were ramifications. But I just needed to get out of this pain and I wanted to see him again. So I laid down and very peaceful, very calm. And you hear people who have committed suicide. Those that saw them earlier that particular day were like I could have never told that this was coming. They seemed very happy.

Well, sure they were because they were relieved that they weren't going to be in this pain anymore and that's how I was. I wasn't scared. I wasn't like, okay, here we go. And I felt myself kind of getting cold and drowsy and all of a sudden for the first time, I heard my dad's voice and it was like you need to get up. And I remember thinking this is great. I am close to passing over. I'm already starting to hear things.

And then the next time I heard it, it was how I had remembered it for the 14 years of my life when he was pissed. It was you need to get up and get out of there. And I remember sitting up like whoa and looking over at that grave and it was like you need to get the hell out of here. So I tried to get back to my feet. Now I was really frozen. Put the bag over my back and I'm like I got a long way to go to get out of here. And this push that was like I can't let him down. I can't let him down.

I got to get out of here. And I was scared to death. I wouldn't at that point. So I went from being very peaceful that I wanted to die to being scared to death I was going to die. Probably because I was really afraid if I faced him on the other side, it was not going to be a happy. So I make my way out of the cemetery back then. No cell phones or anything. Just pay phones and I called and I got a hold of my Aunt Mary and I said I got off the bus to go see dad. Can you come get me?

And she said absolutely and came and got me. And to the day I died, I never told them either my mom or my Aunt Mary the real reason I went to the cemetery that day. And part of it was because I was ashamed of what I had done, what I had thought about. Could I have used an awful lot of counseling? Oh brother, could I have?

Could it have helped me with some of the pain I went through in high school, my own journey of feeling bad about myself and who I was and no purpose and oh boy it would have been an incredible help. But back then as there is now, there was this incredible stigma about it's a weakness. Here I am now the man of the house at 14 so you certainly can't be weak. I was caught in that and certainly caught in I didn't want to let my dad down.

So, I went through this journey myself of thinking about suicide, of working my way through why I rationalized and I couldn't tell anybody nor could I seek any help. And I think that that was meant to be. I truly do believe that everything in life happens for a reason. I don't have to like the reason. Most of the times I don't understand the reason.

Sometimes I do, sometimes in hindsight I see back and now given what I do today, I see why that journey, I see why the tragedy, I see why the getting to that desperate feeling of wanting to take my own life because when somebody says to me I felt that way and everybody's feelings different but to get to that desperate point, I get it. I get it and there's no judgment because I was there and I can see how you can get to that point. And how old were you then?

14. Yeah. So, I mean just listen to your journey. Firstly I want to go back to the fourth grade. So, my little boy is kind of going through something at the moment where he's the smallest in his school year and the lack of self-esteem is crushing. He's a gold-hired little kid. He's actually a good-looking little boy.

I had a face like a smacked ass as they say but I was a very awkward child with dry skin and like a white man's afro and messed up teeth but he doesn't even have that but my god when these kids are down and it's so hard to pull them back out. So, mentally for you when you were quote unquote fat pat, what was that for you like mentally before you had that growth spurt? I used to end up really getting sick a lot before I would even go to school.

I had taken to the doctor loads of times for wondering if I had a stomach disorder or whatever and it was now I look back and it was anxiety because I was afraid to walk into that school. I was afraid I was going to get pushed up against a locker. I was afraid I was going to be ridiculed and then for me I was caught in the kind of that conflict of academically I could do pretty well which almost was the curse of death.

It would have been better if you were a D student because at least you'd be consistent with okay he's clumsy and he's uncoordinated and he's stupid. So okay well this kid's just a loser but because you could do well academically you stood out for the wrong reasons and everything was judged at that point on your athletic ability and I remember just looking in the mirror and feeling really bad about myself and I learned a pattern at that point and I don't blame anybody.

I don't blame my mom or anybody for it. I learned the pattern of really truly when I get emotional doing emotional eating and I think that just really contributed to getting bigger and bigger and bigger. It was like okay I'd come home and I could eat your dinner, my dinner, the neighbors dinner it didn't matter and it wasn't to eat to be full I think it was eat to be comfort.

It wasn't until the cycle switched that I was getting support and getting respect from my peers that all of a sudden I didn't need that as much. I can tell you however to this day I'm 62 to this day when I'm under stress everything you could put in front of me tastes tremendous even something I can't stand and that's when my red light goes on and go whoa what is going on with you there's that's one of my own self indicators now.

Yeah I mean you see I think that's a big part of the obesity epidemic that we have at the moment is that emotional attachment to food. If we're happy and we're celebrating let's go out and get dinner.

If you're sad and commiserating let's go get ice cream and whatever your alcohol of choice is and I think that that's a very underestimated thing for us and children and then it drives me crazy that then when in our schools that even though we're aware of all the health issues especially you and I and the profession that we're in that was still the options for these kids in these schools are still so bad so you know we're just accelerating this process

where I would assume that at least when you were younger it was probably a lot more natural type food and probably the dinner ladies were actually cooking it instead of the process crap that these kids have these days. Yeah correct you were and your mom made your lunch to take to school and for a lot of us that went to school live close enough from school that you came home and got a regular meal at lunchtime and so it wasn't the same.

Grab a candy bar here grab this here and keep you going it was like yeah you were supposed to sit down and eat a real meal that's true.

Yeah now going to the grave site at 14 years old it's something that I again in this journey of learning about mental health that I've been on two things firstly like you said oh that was so cowardly how could they do that you know that's a chickenshit move and you start speaking to these men and women that have been literally either about to or like in Kevin Hines who I had on has actually done it he just survived jumping off the Golden

Gate Bridge and the feeling that they're a burden as well so it's a selfless thing in their mind you know you got the like you said the darkness that just absolute misery but then there's also that my family will be better off without me and that's the thing I think is very misunderstood by a lot of people is it's not a cowardly thing that they truly think they're doing something good for their family obviously the reality is it's the polar opposite.

Agreed and I really the light bulb went on for me I was fortunate to hear a lecture by Dr. Thomas Joyner and he talked about he said there's two psychological states that have to occur simultaneously to really put you into peril for suicide and that is that you feel like you don't belong and you feel like you're a burden and the final part is the ability to actually take your life and he said that's the scary part about first responders

is you all took an oath that if there is a life to be saved you're willing to put your life on the line you're not you're gonna fight against that instinct that I'm the most primary he said then you get those other two states and if they occur together you've got the trifecta and you really are now right on the precipice of being able to take your life and there's no question about that I think in talking that that's a consistent theme

with people who have gotten to a point where it's like I didn't successfully go through but I really did feel sincerely like well they'll be better off without me whether it's looking at it financially whether it's an insurance policy and that'll take care of them and instead of us paying all these bills to try and deal with my mental health they now are gonna have a lump sum of money or it's the emotional impact that it takes in

you know they're not gonna have to worry about that phone call anymore they're not gonna have to worry if they walk in my room if I overslept that I overdose it it gives them some peace and it truly is I the people that I've read about and some of the people that I've talked to you realize that there's a tremendous love in their heart it's just they don't love themselves and that's the hardest part what we see on the outside about those

people of their talent and their beauty and the things that they've got gave them gifts to bring to this earth we don't they don't see any of those they look in that in that mirror and they see nothing but pain and suffering and ugliness and so if you can put yourself in their shoes just to try for a second you can see where it'd be like I don't want to look at this anymore and I don't want to force the people I love to look at this anymore

and I think that's I think that's right on the button that's where it goes yeah and you said about that third element what terrifies me as well is you take a you know a mentally healthy person up onto a 10-story building and then get them close to the edge there's that giant invisible hand that's pushing you back like what the fuck are you doing get back from the edge of this building and I think that you know obviously the the depression

side is one thing but with our community with you know so many of these these men and women out there the sleep deprivation when you introduce that and that appears to me like it breaks down that invisible hand where now that resistance to it that innate physiological thing that we have the the desire to reproduce and then thrive so we can protect our offspring and you know live a full life I think that's what humans are supposed to do that that protective

mechanism is just broken down and that's what terrifies me is we've created an environment these men and women that are already seeing trauma that they have to process but then we're putting them in an environment that's setting them up for failure both physically and mentally yeah I think the the environmental and preparing them is such a critical factor because for any of us if you think about when you're really over tired you you ended up

on a long trip for a vacation take something positive and you ended up with some flight delays or whatever you are irritable your tolerance level for things is incredibly reduced and so then you take people who are in a critical situation and are feeling already suffering some of the anxiety or depression and so their tolerance level for how much they're willing to put up with is significantly reduced and I think then that makes the choices of how

to get healthier more limited and can end up being there really appears to only be one choice here to get significant relief and to finally get ultimate relief and that's to walk through that door and take my life and you're right I think we don't from the very beginning indoctrinate our folks and regardless of what first responder you are I think it's universal when we bring people into our profession right at their orientation

and I don't care if you're a volunteer combination or career department small big doesn't matter we don't in the orientation say you're going to see some really bad shit and it's going to affect you because we are recruiting people who care we want you at two o'clock in the morning when you've been to this house for the third time and you're exhausted and grandma fell out of the wheelchair again and all you're going to do is put her back in it's okay to

be pissed on the way to this call it is not okay to be pissed once you clear that threshold that's your grandmother and that's how we want you to act and all of a sudden they go to that call and they end up that this happens to be the time that no she's not alive anymore and they've lost her and I've talked to crews that were like yeah it used to be a pain to go to this house and I felt genuinely really bad when she passed but we don't talk about

that in the orientation we don't talk about the fact that you're going to see burn victims we don't talk about the fact your children are going to lose their lives and you're going to have to look at their parents and go I couldn't do anything I was helpless and that's always been my big analogy that I use is when you start in this vocation you get a cape and that cape allows you in conjunction with the big guy upstairs to every once in a while

make a difference but you can't do it all the time sometimes you completely fail we don't tell them that in the orientation either we we are gonna be brave you're gonna be strong people are gonna love you and you're gonna make a difference all the time you know you're basically gonna be a superhero is what we tell them we don't tell them the reality because if we did we would have some people would get up after the orientation go this is not

for me this is not what I thought it was and that would be great but we don't then we get them into our academies and we don't do it there either we talk about mental health it's how to respond to the mental health patient not how to take care of your own mental health we don't normalize it we tell them you know we're gonna teach you the correct ways to lift so you don't injure your back but realize that not every situation are you gonna be

able to do that somebody has a full arrest next to the toilet you're not gonna be able to do proper lifting techniques you're gonna do everything you can to get that person out there so you can start to do life-saving techniques and if it does you might hurt your back and if you do here's what you do got a first of all notify somebody right away so I make sure we've got the paper chain so you're legally covered and then we're gonna send you to a

doctor who understands what we do in this profession and they're gonna look at you and if it's a significant back injury they may say you know you might need a muscle relaxer so we're gonna give you some medication you know what you could use probably two weeks of physical therapy to get you stronger with the ultimate goal being to return you to the job they understand at a 100% level but we don't do that when we talk to them about mental

health hey you know what you're gonna see bad stuff you might have nightmares you're not be able to sleep you might start drinking more you might start eating more you might start eating less you might fight with your spouse more and when it happens that's normal and here's the doctor that you go to who understands what you do for a living and they may give you medication or they may not they may give you therapy or they may not with the ultimate

goal being to return you to 100% of who you were to come back and do what you love we don't do any of that until the shit hits the fan we do no human pre-planning we're great about these assessment centers and I'm an assessor I've standing them on the other side of the table as well as being the candidate and it's like all right there's three people on the engine and here's your scenario you know there's a train who hits a car and then

you get there and find out that it's a hazmat and it's a rollover and the car that they hit is four nuns who had two orphans with them and there's a big festival going on during town it's only a half a block away in this huge cloud just hit it there's three of you fix it and it's like okay and we train for that we plan for that it's those superhuman acts but we don't do any human pre-planning that goes okay you're gonna have a guy who's

gonna walk in and go I was just told that my eight-year-old daughter was diagnosed with bone cancer what the hell do I do we don't train on that we don't look at that we don't we don't have a system in place that says okay let me offer you some resources that can help you with that not that I can not fix it don't try to fix it because you're not trained to fix it but listen with empathy listen with sympathy and say I can't man I

can't even imagine being in your shoes and then know what you can do to help we don't do that we wait until the person is circling the drain we misjudge what their actions and symptoms are about just being a plain ass to people and we immediately say we're gonna get rid of this person instead of knowing oh wait a minute whoa this could be this I always kid about you know if you ask any firefighter across the world are you okay the 100% answer

is gonna be yeah good chief I got it you know they could be missing an arm their ear got ripped blinded and they're okay I'm good I'm good I got it but if you ask the same person is there anything I can do for you the fear in doing that is they may take you up on it and then you feel like you gotta go can we start all over again are you okay because I understand that I don't understand the second part and it's our fault as a service that

we don't train them in that and we don't normalize it to take the stigma out of it and a wonderful firefighter in Michigan when I was was doing one of my son's talks after I got done with the talk he said you know I on my shift I had a female firefighter and she has diabetes and honestly James I thought he was going down what are women doing in the fire service blah blah blah not the way he was going at all he said you know and she gives her her

insulin and at the kitchen table and we don't we don't miss a beat we're having breakfast we're just keep talking said so the next shift I came and I dumped my pills on the table and he said everybody looked at the one Mikey what's up with the pills he said well I'm bipolar and they just looked and one of the guys said well what's up with showing that now he said well Linda over there when she gives herself the insulin nobody thinks about

that she can't take that insulin in order to be stable physically because she's got these chemical things going on in her body she's got no control over I have the same thing and so we said well what happens if you don't take your medicine he goes well sometime in the middle of the night I'll get an axe and put it in one of your skulls and he looked and froze he said I'm sitting you I'm that's but he goes it's the same thing

so why would this be any different I went oh my god I said you should have been you should have been the head of some university in terms of dealing with psychological trauma I go to lay it out like that it's just perfect in that I guarantee the people the men and women sitting at that table had a whole new appreciation for what is mental health and what is a mental illness and making that analogy was was powerful and we just don't do that

enough we don't tie we don't make it strong enough in our own people's minds that somebody was dealing with a mental health challenge it is a physical illness it is not a choice it is not a weakness no more than her diabetes no more than somebody's got high blood pressure or no more than somebody is unfortunately diagnosed with cancer it's something that ends up happening in their body and they need help and the more they resist that help the

farther along the disease gets and in both the physical realm of cancer as well as in the physical realm of mental health you can get to the point of where your terminal and there is no help for you and either you're going to pass away from natural causes or you're going to accelerate the process yeah and what you hit on I agree 100% as far as you know entry into this profession and like you said the psych discussions are oh someone

might try and be combative so you have to tie into the stretcher and here's some defensive tactics and you know there's no real you know discussion of that and one thing that I've seen having been fortunate enough to do four application processes for departments that I work for is I would do a crazy psych written test and I say crazy because it doesn't make any sense at all and I joke about this in other podcasts but it's true it's like you

know do you like flowers do you like kittens do you like puppies do you like molesting kids do you like zebras like whoa whoa what you know but that's what it is and there's thousands of these questions and then the polygraph which is the biggest smoke and mirrors bullshit if anyone actually researches a polygraph it's a complete it's basically to fake you out to get you to confess to something that's what it is I mean there's no other way around

it and you take the money from those two ridiculous tests and you put that same money into everyone that you have said okay I think this is someone we want to hire and you put them through three five counseling sessions during orientation Academy whatever it is so firstly you get to offload trauma because it's Pat coming in who lost his dad almost took his own life at a graveside you're bringing in that trauma before you put that badge on your chest I've

got people on here that have been molested as kids grew up in drug houses alcoholism I mean all these things so you're offloading stuff at the front door and you're now creating a rapport exactly like you said with a counselor who gets us so there's never the question like who am I going to talk to I know who I'm going to talk to Mrs. Stevens the lady that I you know spoke to when I first got hired and that I think is you know literally

though I don't see how the budget would be any different if you're paying someone to do a polygraph and an entire psych evaluation turn that into just three or four counseling sessions so you have that rapport at the front door and then as a recipient you realize that that's normalized like from day one if you need to speak to someone you have this connection now I think and I think you the other thing you hit on it's really on the button is because

you meet that person right on the front end you immediately there a rapport starts what one of the things I see was when an organization identifies yeah we got a hole here we got to take care of it all of a sudden there's you're bringing therapists in to do ride-alongs and you know how firefighters are immediately like okay which one of us here is nuts and who are they trying to get rid of I mean there's no no rapport there the poor person is up

against the wall they're the outsider and because again they weren't introduced as part of the staff when you stood there in the orientation and went okay I might at some point need to go talk to her or and just as importantly and that's why that 13th life safety initiative is important when it talks about firefighters and their families need psychological support and if my wife needs to talk to somebody that's see that lady over there hon that's who we're

gonna call so you've made the connection in the beginning in I've talked to chaplains that run into the same thing yeah they brought me in after a horrific event and we're like okay you're now our chaplain no training no no nothing about the culture not about that they had this horrible call or a line of duty it's like well okay just cuz you're a clergy you're supposed to be a mind reader and you're gonna fix everything's like no you haven't

introduced this man or woman you have made them part of the team you haven't put it under normal circumstances you haven't made that communication opportunity that says at some point you may want to talk to this person it may be because you want your kid to get baptized it may have nothing to do with anything traumatic but you know that's father so-and-so or that's minister so-and-so or whatever it is we don't do we don't see that as the leg

of their journey somehow they're supposed to come out unscathed and it's just there isn't anybody I've ever talked to when I have a room of firefighters regardless of how many years they've been on the job and I say I want you to close your eyes and I want you to go to one place you never want to go back to again and I say open your eyes not two seconds later and go every one of you just want some place and some of you went loads

of places so I said we know this happens so why aren't we doing something about it that says we're gonna make this more normal and try and treat it at the level when it occurs as opposed to when it becomes this huge issue and this huge physical illness that now is a struggle to try to get under control or struck try to eradicate.

Yeah and I know when that that question that everyone dreads as a firefighter is you know what's the worst thing that you've seen and I've only got 14 career years under my belt so a fraction of what you've got but the answer isn't oh there's this thing it's like well which one there's a there's a rolodex of memories and I'm very fortunate I honestly think that between exercise and some other positive coping mechanisms that I've had in built for a long

time this podcast is absolutely hands down therapy for me because I get to have discussions like this twice a week but you know if I allow my mind to go back then I mean again which one you know be more specific tell me tell me what you want to you know hear about horrific with children with you know with burns with decapitations and I'll give you I'll give you answers for all of those and you know I'm like I said mid-career in the fire service

so there's people that have you know done double the service I've done done you know probably even higher call loads you know in in eras of history where there was a lot more trauma violence whatever it was so to to act like a first responder a doctor a mortician you know a dispatcher is not going to be affected by these is is the true insanity of this whole thing the true mental health you know question and and the same way as we need to hold our

fitness standards high we need to hold our mental standards high and that means creating an environment for us to you know to select mentally and physically resilient men and women at the front door but then create an environment for them to thrive through their career not beat them down with understaffing insane work weeks and and you know no fitness standards and no mental health.

Now I had to smile when you were talking about the polygraphs and the psychologicals because I when I came on the job you got it you had a psychological and then when I went for promotion as lieutenant I got another psychological and then when I went promotion as a deputy chief I got another psychological and after that when I finally said okay when I came in here I was saying so if I'm this third psychological you show that I'm in balanced

it's a duty disability because I was just fine when I came in the door and I go now you're sending me through these stupid things that says that I can't do it anymore and my mom used to actually my degree from college is in psychology and she used to go with her deep Irish brogue what a waste of money that was intelligent people run out of burning buildings and you go in.

So it's so true if you look at what are you doing to people and you get them prepared for what they're going to face and find out what exactly I brought that pain with me that the second call I ever had in my career was a young mom who hung herself and we were there the day before same address for a woman choking and it was this woman choking on a sandwich in hindsight what ended up happening was she was trying to make it look like she

accidentally died and her sister found her and so the next day she hung herself and I remember vividly down the stairs into that basement running through the door and seeing this poor woman hanging I vividly remember the brown paneling the three pictures of her kids because when she was long gone I remember there was a stool right next to her she could have saved herself at any point and she had her fist clenched like I am not going to finish

I'm not going to stop finishing this this time I'm going to make it but I can honestly tell you that day I was as angry as I could be I had a brand new baby our first child the kids are on their way home from school and I'm going you selfish sob what what could be so bad that you would do this again one of some everything happens for a reason it was like right Pat think back now about how'd you feel at 14 and what was she going through

and found out later that there was incredible numbers of trauma in her life and I really do think in her mind that day she thought her kids would be better off without her in but being exposed to it what it did having already been down that road just magnified everything but there was no discussion afterwards other than she was what a loser and everybody just moved on and but nobody moved on all three of us on that call had little kids all

three of us on that call had wonderful spouses and it was like we didn't even talk about not a word at the table everyone on after that yeah and then that's the problem is at that table they were probably within your crew at least people that that were thinking about suicide you know that was struggling mentally you you'd obviously had your experience at 14 years old so that's the sad thing is that the internal monologue of all the people

around the table was probably very different than what was verbalized and I think we could have learned a lot her her life loss would not have been something that was just a throwaway there could have been a tremendous lesson learned there if nothing else than to provide the empathy at that table so if somebody else down the road a year two years three years ten years from then was feeling that kind of desperation go we talked about that how

could a mom ever get to a point where she would leave her children so so opposite of what that mother's instinct is well now you're sitting at the table going well I'm really thinking about killing myself and I got a wonderful wife and four kids and a grand kid on the way and okay I get it I remember this woman I got it I gotta go for help we talked about this well we didn't we didn't talk about it we missed that opportunity

yeah yeah and the thing you gotta you gotta pull back the lens as well and and reverse the question like how terrifying must it be to be about to take your life and again Kevin Hines mentions is the moment he stepped off the Golden Gate Bridge he regretted it he was one of you know I think it's single digits of people that have ever survived and he spent his life now telling a story but you know it must be absolutely terrifying so why are

we having so many people that are getting to this point and certainly in our profession it seems to be increasing the military it seems to be increasing wildland firefighting you know then and so what are these elements that are getting these people even that you mentioned the religion I mean that's thing that very recently I realized there are people who truly believe that they were most likely going to go to hell if they do this that is

a sin and they still would rather take that risk than live the hell that they're living now you know so that's what we should be asking we should be having these discussions and then saying what the hell are we doing wrong why are we having so many people that's so deeply depressed and not even mentioning you know that the tip of the iceberg is suicide the bulk of the iceberg is the drug addiction and the alcoholism and the porn addiction

and the domestic violence and all these other manifestations of mental health that we're not even really discussing yeah I think and I really do think it's that like that caught in the phone booth thing is it right you go into the phone booth you put on the cape you come out save the day but we only spend like 1% of our life total between professional and personal where you're out of the phone booth you spend the other 99% in the phone

booth and we don't talk about those coping skills at all we don't we're really expecting our folks to be like made of concrete and you're always going to be successful you're going to be successful in this department you're going to be successful in your personal life you're not going to have any and anybody who's ever been married realizes that it is it is work is not what you see in a movie if you have a successful relationship there

are bumps in the road that you have to both be committed to work through it's the same thing in your career something you love just like you love your spouse you are going to go through bumps in how what's the communication chain in order to be able to work through that every freaking line of duty that report that you read the number one issue always that cited I don't care what it is talks about communication communication communication

and yet when we get to this topic we shut it down we turn off the frequency we don't even turn the damn radio on we're not going down this road and I really believe it's not because the leadership the fire service in general doesn't care it's because it scares the hell out of us and we haven't looked into it enough to know what to do so instead we look the other way going it'll go away it'll go away it's like no it's constantly following

you and eventually that hammer it's got gets bigger and bigger and it can crush you and as leaders when you talk about everyone goes home never leave a brother or sister we have to widen what that definition means it and you talk about physical fitness earlier and you're absolutely right on the button is we we now realize how important it is to do physical fitness to what level you can do it in your organization whatever you got to do something

something's better than nothing and it's the same thing and the mental health continuum is do something have something available we don't have any money we don't have the resources when I mean 80% of the fire service is volunteer we never get that in this country is that the major metropolitan areas yeah we're very blessed to have full-time fire departments but most people have a volunteer organization in they don't have any money and they don't

certainly have any AP program and so it's like okay well we won't do anything we'll know maybe it's even a stronger push for you because as one chief said to me realize chief in our little community when the cape doesn't work and we lose a child we go to the wake and we go to the funeral and then we see that mom for the rest of our lives and all it keeps telling us is we didn't make a difference what we signed up to do we failed and there's

no way for them to process it and my suggestion has always been have you reached out to even your local high school counselors and go is any counselor willing to just sit with us and talk about what we do for a living and kind of get a feel that anybody any of the ministers any church I don't care what denomination anybody is do you have a counselor who does that professionally in your community might volunteer find somebody don't give me an excuse

you don't have it you got to go seek it out because there are people who legitimately want to help us but we just find excuses because it's complicated and once you kick the door open and you say you're going to tackle this animal it's got an awful lot of tentacles and it's just like there's not one kind of cancer there's not one kind of mental health challenge and so trying to provide the best you can nobody's ever going to have the perfect

model you couldn't do everything 100% correct for your people for your kids for your spouse for you and can still end up taking your life that people need to know that that that happens there are people with terminal mental illnesses but you can make a difference you can I use a movie clip when I'm talking sometimes and I am I am kind of a sucker for sappy movies and especially sports movies and I use a clip from the natural and in the whole story is

about a guy who makes a bad decision a tremendous athlete and has to pay for it and almost loses his dream he loses the girl he was in love with in the beginning because of making this bad decision and later on in the movie when he's struggling she shows up at a game and James I've watched this movie no kidding I'm embarrassed to tell you I've probably seen it a hundred times and it wasn't until my wife passed from cancer that I watched this

movie and there's a scene where he's struggling and the heroine in it stands up I've seen it a hundred times but this time I saw it for she was in all right the crowd was very negative all sitting there was this bright light behind her like she was an angel and he looks back into the stands kind of distracted and sees her doesn't recognize who it is but just sees this silhouette of this one single person standing in his halo and he

obviously gets home run it breaks the clock it does all sorts of theatrical things but later in the movie is what struck me he said to her why did you stand up that day and she said because I didn't want to see you fail and that's the key is if we stand for people who are struggling we give them a chance that there's hope that we don't want to see them fail does that mean because she stood up well he happened to hit the clock he could have

struck out too it doesn't mean that you stand up you're gonna save everybody but it gives somebody looking into the stands of life that hope that you are going to provide the light that there's still a way to get out of this there's still a way to get better there's still a way to get help and you again we're back to that I've normalized what you're feeling and here's the path you need to go to try and get better yeah and that's that's a I

think the the challenge for the for us the fire service and obviously every other group of people that are listening is this it's a double-edged sword we need obviously to create an environment that people are comfortable to reach out for and we need to watch and I think that so many of us that kind of become more aware of the mental health side look back and go man that guy that was always an asshole I never even crossed my mind that

maybe he was going through something you know and I know when I went through divorce I was going through divorce I was a single dad going through paramedic school working in one of the busiest rescues in Orange County and there were days when I was ready to kill someone you know and it's not that I'm a bad person you know but it was all that stress and I was never at a you know a self-harm point but you know we have to create an environment

rather than making fun of that person or like you said trying to get rid of them firstly say are you okay and then but say it twice you know like you said you okay now I'm good no seriously sit down here's what I've been going through recently open the door be vulnerable and then then then you know hopefully they will reach out and then the other side is obviously then in that environment the people hurting also have to have the courage to to

reach out as well but those go hand in hand and without one you're never going to get the other.

No I agree and they will watch to see how other people are treated if you truly have a welcoming environment to the whole issue of mental health they will see people like our buddy Mikey who put his medication on the table they will see people who will become role models and go hey in this organization this is no different than any other illness that somebody's got and I do my job is there any are there any other questions and they

then will be encouraged to go okay there aren't these ramifications that people like to make up about you'll never get promoted people will find out you'll get drummed off the job instead it's like no I need to do something about this now because I don't want to get to that point down the road where I am so angry and a great example you gave and I appreciate you sharing that but your own journey is when I've done my son's talk a number of times

I'll have people come up afterwards and literally just had one happen recently where chief said to me you know I've got a guy up on charges and I was getting ready to can't because he's just had been a pain in our ass for the last 10 years and he goes I now realize from what you've said that I think he's just got a lot of demons he's struggling with and if nothing else we're gonna try first and if it turns out that he is just a cancer and shouldn't

be here then I'll go through with what I want to but he goes I was gonna do that without doing any more of the homework and I need to do more homework and I so I think you're absolutely right is we don't look beyond the surface because we don't understand what's underneath the surface and it scares us to death so we don't we don't take the lid off we just we just take the whole can and throw it in the garbage and move on it's like we

lose so many people that way I think good people in the service and sometimes when you throw that can away the person then throws their life away and we we we have we haven't looked enough and hard enough about how do we try to keep people in our own service who have these illnesses and are still incredibly productive and powerful parts of our profession.

Yeah and then I talk about this a lot with the diamond you know that the drill ground when when you have the orientation when your new hires are standing there you know they are mentally and physically resilient men and women you know all in all like you said apart from the turd that got in but the rest of them but you know fast forward 10 years you know they say they say that some of them are obese some of them like you said are crabby

as hell what did they walk in that first day and said I'm gonna I'm gonna work for two three years and then just start to be an asshole no so there's there's obviously an effect of this job some people just are lucky enough to have that environment for me I always say this I had a glimmin idyllic childhood my parents got divorced was 18 so I got to go through my entire childhood first without you know having to deal with that but I grew

up on a farm in England you know it was when my dad was a veterinarian I got to see you know had compassion with animals and all these amazing things so my entry in there really didn't bring much trauma with it at all you know but again the other guy that maybe had prior military service maybe you know again he lost his father whatever it was it might take a few years for that to manifest when you add on the sleep deprivation the things

that we start seeing and so physically we need to understand this person just didn't want to get fat you know and mentally it's the same thing these are warning signs for us to go firstly these people need help and secondly is our environment creating people a condition for people to thrive or maybe we should we look at the way we're doing things are we overworking our people you know is that the understaffing affecting these people

mentally physically you know and and and actually reverse engineer your department and say how can we do this better because if you've got a bunch of people that are for 10 years of falling apart physically and or mentally then that's part of the machine that you got to look at too.

It's it and it's funny it just hit me and I haven't thought of this story in a long time but I did I did a talk in the UK and I was just sitting around with a bunch of chiefs leaders out there and and after I was done they said you know we check in on our folks literally our our our company officer will sit around the table for he started going well how's everybody doing where were we at and if somebody's wife is very ill or is just

coming off surgery or whatever that person may not be driving that day that they were slotted for that but they're not going to drive that day because their heads not there or we may go as your head here even enough to be here and I looked at him and I have to tell you I looked at him I said so you do that every day for everybody who's sitting there and said yeah it's a 10 second check-in I go if you did that in the United States

if four guys on a shift decided it was nice day to play golf they might all have an issue and all of a sudden they're on the tee somewhere I go it's a little it's different and it but it it doesn't need to be different it's it's because we've set that up to go well no it's not meant to be an excuse and it's not meant to be a way to abuse a system it's a way to use the system so that you are not put in a really difficult position of making a decision

to come to work that day when you're not ready to protect yourself the people you work with or the people that you respond to and I think that there is your guy who comes in very crabby or the opposite the guy who's normally very engaged and all of a sudden is kind of a rec loose doesn't talk to anybody doesn't watch TV doesn't you know sitting on the upper ass floor by himself he's just trying to make it through a 24-hour tour well it shouldn't

be that way I mean somebody comes in they got a hundred and two fever and a coffin all over the place you send them home because like you need some rest you need some recovery I appreciate you came here but you need to go we don't have somebody walk in and we see symptoms and do something about it because we don't know what the hell those symptoms mean we haven't been trained in it and so we become fearful so we avoid it and we let

that person just kind of do their own time just having a bad day really that's six months of a bad day I've never had a bad day before you're not even investigating it you're not offering some kind of help or even just that courage to go are you okay and I really like what you said about being consistent and insistent with them is to keep asking okay he said it was he said it was okay no no no no is there anything I can do for you yeah I'm fine is

there anything you can do I just hit a chief Jim Grady who's the executive director of the Illinois Fire Chief somebody have an incredible amount of respect for his leader who said I had a guy one day and he goes I knew something was wrong and he said I went up to him and says there anything I can do for you goes no I'm good chief says there anything no really you're not yourselves or anything I can do for you I'm good chief I'm gonna go get a

cup of coffee and when I come back from the kitchen we are gonna talk or we're gonna take a ride it's gonna be one of the two and went and got his cup of coffee came back and found out that his wife had filed divorce papers that morning without him knowing it because of the insistence and the caring this man open who knows where this would have gone I don't know not saying this person would have gotten suicidal or whatever but maybe

but because somebody was not going to take no for an answer and there I really believe that little voice inside of you is a powerful source of intuition as well as I think where you get things from way beyond who's inside of you things other spirits and I have a great faith and I really believe sometimes those little angels getting your and go this guy's in trouble you need to do something about it even if you're not sure what you should

do it because I'm telling you he's in trouble and trusting that to go I'm not gonna take the little answer and be okay with it because then I checked the box that I checked in on the person which is what a lot of times ends up happening when people have it as employee assistance program it's like okay well I gave them the AP card I knew they were in trouble I gave him an AP card well that's just frickin wonderful that's you and really that's gonna

be enough do you know where your AP is do you know what they know about your fire department do you know the insurance limitations you get some man or woman who is courageous enough to seek out the AP and they do three visits and they end up connected to that counselor in there like whoa I'm starting to feel better and then the counselor has to go well yeah that's the end of your visit so now you need to see a private counselor and it's gonna

cost a hundred dollars as a copay and then blah blah blah you don't even know that all you do is hand them a card now you've gotten them halfway through their antibiotics to get better and they're feeling better and they quit taking the prescription what happens it comes back with a vengeance the disease well the mental health is a disease and it comes back because you didn't do enough to make sure that the system was comprehensive

and you were a part of it and I really do think that people run out of energy that there are I think we're spread thin on all the things that we we do in our profession and you're spread thin on all the things that you got to deal with it in life but that's not an excuse to go I'm gonna back away from something that could end up being fatal if you saw a wall at a fire that was structurally unsafe you get everybody out of the collapse zone

we don't get people mentally out of the collapse zone we just don't make that that as much of a priority as we have to yeah I couldn't agree more you talked earlier about having your first son so I'd love to steer the conversation now towards you know fatherhood and then you know obviously your your son Sean's path after that yeah I was very blessed we had three boys Brendan Patrick and Sean no Anthony's in there all that the good Irish strong names

and Sean being my my youngest and definitely of the personality traits in the family the one that I had envisioned being a firefighter my my oldest guy used to joke about the fact that he saw me be a fire chiefs like yeah I don't I don't really want to push papers for the rest of my life so now I don't really want to do that my middle guy incredible heart also but said yeah blood makes me kind of nauseous including my own so I don't think

I can do that Sean was definitely the one that I would have I because of his heart and strength and character that I thought well okay this if somebody's gonna follow my footsteps gonna be him well at the age of five Sean was diagnosed with clinical depression and I didn't know you could have depression at five I thought you could be upset about you you didn't get a bowl of ice cream or you got grounded or whatever but my wife Eileen

who was always the smartest one in the in our pairing she noticed that he was coloring everything in black never used any other color crayons also back then velcro shoes were a big deal and he literally before he would go to kindergarten would do each shoe 50 to 100 times if you interrupted that cycle he would have what I consider to temper tantrum what we know now was an anxiety attack so she took him to psychiatrist now I'm fire

chief of an organization I'm big in the leadership you know I'm where the Cape saved the day it's like okay you got a five-year-old's got they have to go to a psychologist I did I kind of blew it off and she went and he was diagnosed said yeah this kid's clinically depressed so so you're starting medication at five and therapy on a regular basis at five and honestly I went along with it because I was like okay well this makes honey this

makes you feel better and you think this is what needs to be that's good and I got I got people to save so we're good it wasn't until junior high which as everybody knows when you when you have children in junior high with the hormonal change it's a it's a rough ride for everybody but when you have a child that's got mental health struggles it really ramps up and it at junior high at seventh grade he became that he was diagnosed with

obsessive compulsive which I thought was you wash your hands too many times you turn off the light switch an extra time I didn't understand it and I didn't I didn't look into it enough and what it turns out in Sean's case was that it was these incredibly intrusive thoughts would come into his mind and so found a journal that he wrote in which he was literally counting how many times he was taking a breath as he was learning all these algebra formulas now

if I tried to do that pass out I wouldn't even be able to do it and that's one of the misnomers about people who struggle with mental health challenges is they're dumb it's like no they're incredibly intelligent people they are people that just have this disease and these thoughts would come in and fight against him every single day of his life when he got to 14 and as we talked earlier before 14 big symbolic number for me he was getting ready

to start freshman year high school and the day before he was going to start high school he said I can't do this anymore and I was like what do you mean you can't do it anymore you know your brothers are in the high school yet and you know people are gonna give you a hard time and that kind of goes with being a freshman and don't buy an elevator pass because there's no elevator and and my wife looked at me and said be quiet she said what

do you mean Sean and he said I can't do the same where I don't want to live now I at that point was the chief of a wonderful fire department that was a one-station career department it was tiny enough that I knew everybody's significant other I knew all their kids birthdays and our kids all grew up together we had a hospital it was four blocks away and normally when we would get a mental health call it would be in the middle of the night it would come

in sounding like a cardiac you'd get there and realize it was an anxiety attack you would transport the patient you would get to this hospital and they had a certain set of elevators that you would use you go up those elevators the fourth floor person would get off the gurney they go in a room take off all their private clothes so they didn't have any shoelaces or belts begin putting a gown and they would disappear behind this door then I felt like

okay now they're in there with all the other losers we'd go back upset that we were out in the middle of the night gonna go home with little sleep many work in a second job and move on so I thought okay wait a minute I know how to fix this so I said Sean you realize if you're talking about that you're gonna take your life that I have a responsibility as your dad to take you to the hospital what they're gonna do is they're gonna put you

in the hospital fully thinking that that would scare him into well this wasn't that big of a deal instead I got the first major learning lesson as a parent of what's not in the parent handbook he looked at me and he said I know dad let's go and got in the car and closed the door and I remember standing in the front of the car like oh my god got in the car drove to the hospital we took those elevators went up to the fourth floor Sean disappeared into

that room came out in a gown and he disappeared behind that door except James there was a difference in that door that day for the first time in my life the people behind that door weren't losers anymore because my son was not a loser and so I saw moms doctors and lawyers and financial consultants and plumbers and people who just were ill but they were people they weren't losers and I was sick to my stomach the whole way we drove home

and I don't think I was as sick to my stomach about the fact that I just put my 14 year old kid in a psych ward as I was thinking of all those people in my career I had labeled up to that point I didn't understand that they were part of a family and they truly were ill so we went all through high school up and down with various medications all sorts of different types of therapies you name it Sean tried it multiple suicide attempts and

now we're at the end of high school and getting to senior year and we're in January and he comes to us and says they need help at this point we are emotionally and financially bankrupt and it's like Sean what the hell's kind of help could you need I we don't even know what to do for you anymore and he said taking drugs and I remember reacting and going you can't smoke that shit because you know it affects the medication you're on it can enhance it

it can reduce it you can't do that so I'm not doing that you know what do you mean you're not doing that so I'm doing other stuff what other stuff are you doing well I'm doing coke and heroin now everybody can say that their mom was the best mom ever in the world and I'll agree with everybody for a tie but nobody was a better mom than my wife and they had an incredibly close relationship she was the love of his life and she had no clue we lived

in this tiny house we bought a little bungalow that I eventually was hoping would we up size to a nicer house couldn't afford to do it because of all the struggles Sean had gone through and so there was no hiding in that house he was very close with his two brothers never saw it never saw it at all I said Sean why why in the hell would you do that he said dad for just that little moment I feel normal I feel like I get some relief but I'm here

to tell you I know I can't go through life like this so I need help so we put him sent him to a rehab center that did dual diagnosis so they took care of the mental health along with the addiction and in many cases it's the chicken and the egg that many people self medicate and Sean was self-medicating to get away from those intrusive thoughts so he went into a 90-day program he was 18 years old he was in that he was the oldest one in the

adolescent wing the only one that could sign himself out at any point and there were multiple times he wanted to but he didn't and he became like the dad of the wing and I remember them telling me one story of them bringing a child there where a mom did not tell the child she was bringing him to come in and end up in this institution and you can imagine what occurred in the parking lot they literally sent Sean out to talk to this kid and Sean

talked him into coming into a place that Sean didn't want to be himself but knew that there was benefits and that you could get better and so he successfully completed the 90 days and we thought oh boy maybe we got a new lease on life here maybe this what was needed was

a cleansing of him not only in terms of the addiction but a cleansing of his mind. He came out started graduated with a B from his high school graduation did not walk with his class because he did all of his the last quarter his class work in rehab didn't care about walking with them and I think was starting to already feel like I don't belong. We talked about that belong before I don't belong with that group I'm not they can't even relate

to what I'm doing. Tried junior college and because of the obsessive compulsive would have the same period would take too many hours would end up going full tilt doing great and

then just bottom out couldn't go to class. Work in part-time jobs work regular hours over hours holiday hours and all of a sudden couldn't keep the job it was just a pattern and another suicide attempt ensued and finally had to have the conversation that I never thought I would ever have to have with any of my kids and no training and no thought about and said Sean unless you can promise me that you won't try to take your life again

you can't live here anymore. I go I can't have mom find you it would destroy her said so look me in the eye and tell me this isn't going to happen again and I can still picture his eyes and the sadness in his eyes and he goes I can't do that dad I can't. So we looked for a group home for him to move into where they would provide education there would be a counselor living there they would monitor their meds all nine yards and he didn't want

to go in the worst way he loved being in his house he loved being with his mom. We were scheduled to go away for our 25th wedding anniversary and it was the first time that we were actually going to be able to go away we were going to go to Hawaii and we he knew and we knew it was contingent on him getting into this group home and it looked like it was all set we're in the middle of December everything's fine and all of a sudden with

a week to go they went no it's not going to fly we got we don't have an opening so it'll

be for a while which would have canceled our trip. He went and back then this is in the in the 90s early 90s he went got his brother to take him to the store went got a home fax machine set it up faxed a letter to the doctor saying I need clearance and I need you to make you this a priority to get me into this group home got a letter back from the doctor this during holidays back from the doctor sent the letter to the group home and all

of a sudden we get confirmation right literally right as we're getting ready to go to the

airport then yeah he'll be in tomorrow we got him in. This is the kind of heart this kid had so when you talk again about people with mental health struggles they're like well they're bad people they're out here bullshit they're not the great people and he was a great kid to go to this extreme to go into something he didn't want to so he goes into the group home he's in there for about three months and all of a sudden we get a call that

he's missing it's like what do you mean he's missing he was in your care well we don't lock everybody down here it's not a jail and following morning we get a call from the local hospital we have your son here we find he was found down unconscious we don't know how long he was down but you need to get to the hospital right away so my wife and I shot to the hospital and walked in and I know that look he was on a ventilator he was gray he

was aspirating around the ventilator and I'm like my god he's gone and I remember going up and grabbing his hand sorry get a little emotional now I remember going up and grabbing his hand and saying hey buddy you fought really hard it's time to go go it's okay go go go someplace where it'll be safe you just got to get out of here my wife and I made the phone calls you were handed the DNR papers do you want to sign these would you sign the

organ donor I mean it was just a flurry of like two hours of hell and finally it was like my wife came from a huge family here I am an Irish Catholic only child and my wife was Irish Catholic one of 13 so more than normal Irish Catholic family and it was how are we gonna let everybody know to come say goodbye so he was taken up to ICU with the thought everybody's gonna proceed in here and say goodbye and then we're gonna turn

off this ventilator and wait so that happened for the next 24 hours people coming in coming in coming in coming in and finally as this sea of people seemed to be ending the doctor came in he said I want you to tear up the DNR and I go why in hell would I do that said because he's fighting he's trying we can see so we're gonna give him a chance like well absolutely give me the pay do whatever you can do so for the next few days they were

like we're gonna try each day to take him off the ventilator and see if he can breathe on his own tried it then work tried it then work tried it then work finally they said we're gonna try one more time if that doesn't work then you'll have to find a place for him and I'm like find a place for him like what like like this put him in some kind of home on a ventilator at 20 years old this is what we're faced with yeah well it turns

out the next day was st. Patrick's Day now st. Patrick's Day in our family was like the unbelievable holiday and our kids were spoiled on that everything was baked in green they were dressed in green I hate to admit that they were better at pouring a green beer out

of a keg than they were at doing their homework here we were it's like st. Patrick's Day in them like going okay so I walked into his room that morning and literally put up all these decorations in the ICU and it was cute now wasn't that day but the nurse walked in and she said tell her all these decorations for him like are you kidding me you don't

know today's a national holiday you know what the hell today is like in st. Patrick's Day and she's like okay she walks on going oh my god this is gonna help take him off the ventilator here we go so the time comes in so mr. fire chief mr. leader mr. where the

cape mr. save everybody else I was too afraid to stay in the room so I literally stood in the hallway and my wife courageous of the two of us went in there and I and I had a niece who was there that day visiting Sarah who said I'll go in with her here I am this I'm his dad I had given my word when I got married to protect my wife which meant that we were blessed to have children it was to protect my kids and I couldn't go in the room

and they went in there and I waited in the hallway and all of a sudden I heard this coughing and I'm like I must be one of the nurses because I was so sure this was gonna be a life of where he'd be on a ventilator and I was very angry with God going you put him through so much that you're gonna do this to him now and his mom and I hear the cough again like and I peeked around the corner literally like a little kid and his eyes were open and he

was off the ventilator and he caught my eyes and his big smile his beautiful smile I remember as a healthy child came on his face and I was like are you laughing at my tie because I've been most obnoxious St. Patrick's Day tie-on I could find and he nodded his head and I started to cry and ran up to him I'm like oh my god we've got you back and the nurse everybody's crying and the nurses are like you too you need to go home and sleep

and he needs to rest he's been through an awful lot next morning the phone rings and the caller ID shows it's the hospital and I'm sure he died during the night so I pick up the phone and there's this very raspy voice on the other end of the line it's like dad are you coming to see me today that was like oh my god he would run away shoot down there we walk in and we get into his room he's very agitated he's sitting on the edge of his bed

and he wants to talk I'm like Sean I go you've been on his ventilator his thing's been down your throat I go relax we got time now just sit back in a bed just let me hug you and he know I'll need to talk and my wife again Pat go over there and sit down be quiet Sean what what do you need to talk about he goes saw Sean Kenny and I go oh my god I knew he had brain damage I knew it he doesn't even know who he is and my wife goes hang on a

minute she was Sean no you're Sean Kenny who did you see he saw said I saw grandpa Mike and I'm like looking at him going did he say what I think he said she goes you saw grandpa Mike what do you mean you saw grandpa Mike goes looks just like dad but younger big hands black curly hair and she's like now Sean had never seen a picture of my dad in his prime like he described when he was a hurler and that's exactly what he looked like when I

was a little boy my dad was an engineer and I remember walking with him and his hands feeling his hands were huge like ten times the size of my hand and feeling how cool this was to have this big hand in golf mine and my wife said did grandpa Mike talk to you he said yeah we sat on this concrete bench with all these advertisements behind it now my dad never had a driver's license we always took public transportation everywhere whenever

I went anywhere with him we took the bus and we would sit on a concrete bench with advertisements behind it waiting for the bus those things didn't even exist in Sean's lifetime he never saw them he never heard about them and yet he described it in detail and she said what else did grandpa Mike say to you said tell dad I'm sorry I had to leave him sorry I had to leave him sorely now you can tell me 20 year old drug addiction oxygen deprivation

all the drugs they push to keep him alive that have messed with his brain no 20 year old kid knows what it feels like as a father if you had to leave your kid for whatever reason behind in the emotion in his voice and the tears in his eyes I could feel it and at that point I sat down because I was afraid I'd fall down and she said what else did grandpa Mike say to you he said Sean you need to go back it's not your time so I don't

know and maybe this is the most important message of this podcast for somebody listening out there whether you believe in God you have a religion you don't have a religion if you've ever loved somebody and you wonder are they someplace else I don't know what it's called and I don't know where it is but it's there because Sean was there and that discussion he had with my dad was not a hallucination not that he could have retrieved from a memory

bank of nothing that even it was stored there he saw my dad and I'm like oh my god all those years of hoping he was watching me and still being my hero is like he could see me like okay now I'm sure we are golden not only did he survive but he saw my dad we are gonna he's gonna be just fine and it didn't work that way he got worse he had lost some hearing from being down they tried actually that was in March and April they tried it he was the

first person to have this surgery where they put an implant in his chest with the hope of blocking some of the chemical impulses that would trigger things in the brain and he just got worse his voice would crack like he was going through puberty and ironically on Easter Sunday he passed out in our home and my wife was sure he had taken an overdose of something I remember running into the bathroom and holding him and he can't hear me well

because the hearing aids not in and I'm like Sean did you take something and with these sad eyes he looked at me went no dad I didn't and took him to the hospital and they were like no he's clean it's the device so on June the third of that year he took his life and people will always say to me are you upset are you angry with him remember I laid in that cemetery at 14 I watched what he went through we took him to Mayo Clinic at one

point the year before so when he was 19 and spent out of our own pockets a week's worth of investigation physically and mentally of everything going on with him at the end of the week James they said to us he's terminal and I remember saying did you find something in his brain like I was hopeful they're like no you don't get it you have 10 breast cancer patients same age same diagnosis we do the same course of treatment nine respond wonderfully

one does not we don't know why but it disease does not respond to anything we throw at it goes it's the same with Sean we reviewed his chart he's tried every medicine we know in every intervention and the disease is not responding if something doesn't change soon he will take his life because every day he makes the decision to stay not to go he decides to stay one more day and so I get it I absolutely get it and what he taught me about mental

health was I look at the value of this kid I think of all the goodness and as I mentioned earlier when he looked in the mirror he saw nothing but ugly nothing but pain I looked in the mirror and I saw a handsome kid everybody loved who could walk in the room and he could light that room up he had a magnetism a leadership magnetism he was the catcher at his baseball team the center his football team but he never saw that he couldn't feel that and the intrusive

thoughts had gotten so bad there was only one way out in the hotel that he went to to take his life it was this flea bag hotel in the city and the lady who saw him at the front desk because when I went down to get her stuff she thought I was a cop because of my unmarked car and she was very guarded and when she brought out his bag of clothes I just burst into tears and she looked at me she said you're not a cop and I said no I go I'm his dad and

she said I was here when he checked in and he said to me good morning he said what a beautiful day and it was because he was now relieved that soon he wasn't going to be in that pain anymore so all those things he taught me inspired me to go I got to do something about this I did I had the chance in my fire department to change the culture about mental health by just sharing Sean's almost 15 year journey it did I didn't tell anybody the only

people who knew were my deputy and my secretary because I would have to disappear as the chief for hours and sometimes overnight at a time based on where he was in his illness because I was afraid that they would see him walk in the door and they would think less of him but you know James as more years go by I think I was more afraid of what they think of me okay you're our leader you're supposed to protect us and you can't even take care of

your own kid the hell are you gonna do when we're in trouble and I think I did it to protect me as much as I did to protect him and I missed the window of where I could have made it normal at the kitchen table and here's the follow-up to that that's really critical a month later it's fourth of July like everybody else we have a big holiday but it's a mandatory report because we had a small department about this big festival we had I didn't pay any attention

I went in that day and I lean beg me don't go in there it will tear you apart all those families and just don't do that no the guy in the cape no got to do it because where did I feel comfortable in the phone book I went in there I shook hands I did all glad any and then when my office and stopped for three hours till it was over and then came out say goodbye to everybody went home the following day there's a lieutenant at the

door chief can I talk to you for a minute what's up he said you didn't give firefighter so-and-so yesterday off did you from this mandatory detail you know what I don't even remember what the hell I'm doing now I but I don't think so he's well there are other issues and he had a pile of paper which is never a good time for a chief and he said we've had some issues with him over the last month with altercations and the last one got

physical Mike is he here today said yeah said send him in now I would love to tell you that my thought process was I'm gonna I'm going to be the guy who's getting what's going on and how you doing no in my mind that short hallway he was about to walk down to I was he was going to get every anger negative emotion I had he just gave me a permission slip to kick his ass with everything that self-loathing I had so he came in and said that I didn't

look up I was looking at the papers he sat down he goes chief do you want to know where I was yesterday so I don't really give a shit where you were yesterday so let's go back and start looking at June whatever it was you've had an altercation and he said again chief do you want to know where I was yesterday and honest to God James this time I heard Sean's voice because dad you need to look up and I literally looked up over my glasses

and he was crying I put the papers down and I go where were you yesterday he said we know for the last month we've talked about Sean at the kitchen table talked about what that must have been like how we feel bad that there wasn't anything we could do to help him we could have helped Eileen we could have helped Pat and Brendan your other boys and we could have helped you but we didn't know he said we really believe he's not in pain anymore

and that he's safe and that's a good thing he said yesterday I sat in a bathtub with a gun in my mouth for the whole day and thought about joining him now again love to tell you angel sitting here was the guy to well here I got a chance to save the day with you know in fact in my mind I was thinking God is there any way I can trade this guy's ass for my son can we do that is that possible and again I heard Sean in my ear go dad you know what

to do just please do it so I said okay what's going on and what turns out is for the past three years in this little firehouse where we all knew each other he would take personal time or vacation time whenever he lost a patient on the ambulance and I'm not talking about somebody had died in his arms I'm talking about he could have gone to the house and this person could have been dead for 12 hours but the guilt of feeling like the cape that

he had sworn to take to save people that every time he let these people down we had no clue about that so I take him to the hospital we go up the elevator he gets out of the elevator takes his uniform off and now he disappears behind that door with the other people who are suffering and he got help and it turns out he had PTSD so bad that he had to go off the job he is to this day to his absolute positive I can't even say enough about the

courage of this guy is doing good is managing the PTSD is no longer in the fire service but pretty soon I'm hoping is going to be able to walk his daughter down the aisle and he has a son who became a firefighter because I'm just tremendous but he always said you know Sean saved my life are you saved my life and I go no that's bullshit Sean saved your life I go because Sean died you all talked about it at the table if I had just opened

my mouth 15 years ago and told this story like I would have if he had any other difficult illness you might have come forward three years ago when this was starting to haunt you and we might have saved your career and that's when I went I've got I've got to do something so people know they've got to change the stigma in their fire departments do it before something happens because I didn't.

Well Pat I want to first to say thank you so much I mean it's a heart-wrenching story as a parent myself especially as a little boy is going through that you know issue at the moment I think it hopefully it's a more mild version of but I'm sure so many people listening are seeing a lot more mental health issues in their children than we discuss about as well and I've just kind of tripped over this this Baker Act thing that you and I discussed

about and it literally blew open this world of issues that we're seeing in our children and some schools are doing it very well some schools are dropping the ball but the the awful awful fact is that we're talking about it finally in the first responder community the military we're talking about it a little bit ahead of us and now I think we're looking again and be like well shit you know our kids are hurting and I know that Sean didn't grow

up quite in this generation but now we've got in a generation of children who are where you and I did fire drills when we were kids and I don't remember being traumatized by that at all because it was just a way of getting out of math and I was really bad at math but now they're drilling where they turn off the lights put desks against the door and hide in the corner of the room because someone is coming with a gun to murder them all you

know what I mean so that we have we have you know the social media stuff there's so many other areas so separate from Sean's story which you know again is the courage that that he had and the battles that he had we need to talk about this as a firehouse a fire department police department you know er but also our children I had no idea how rampant mental ill health and mental challenges are amongst our kids and that is also a discussion that

you hardly ever hear no I agree and in the the statistics of college students who take their life is staggering and you think about it the environment all well-meaning no parent ever parents their children with the intent that they're going to put them in a compromising position but because of the way our kids are raised we want always everything better for them and now they're being we protect them from everything a child who's already suffering

with some mental health illnesses is not going to come forward because it's not going to reflect well on when you apply for college it's not going to reflect well on your parents it's certainly not going to reflect well in your peer group because it'll be all over Twitter Facebook and everything that you're a loser and instead of somebody passing a note in my generation that said I was fat pat now they would have blasted it to 600

people you know in a 30 seconds and then they get to college where is a lonely environment anyways and you have to be incredibly resilient because you might meet some of the first failures ever in your life and we have not built a system for these kids to be able to realize that yeah that that's a pretty common reaction and here's what you do if that happens so they again look at like I only have one alternative I don't want to be around I don't belong I'm

not good enough I'm not you know and we see it and you're right in the schools I'm a volunteer coach on our at our high school for baseball and I've been blessed they have 20 years coaching kids that it really after Sean passed it was it was my therapy those those young men kept me going and I would listen to things that you would hear as a coach that you wouldn't hear as a teacher and just be able to pull kids aside and go you need to go into your

counselor having discussion about that because this is that's that's a normal reaction what just happened you either with your girlfriend or you flunked that exam or you're hiding the grades from your parents or whatever would be but you need to go and talk about that because otherwise just becomes a bigger deal than even you think it is and that that environment there is also very stale in terms of this topic like no we don't want to get on it

what we don't want to and this one always drives me we don't want to encourage the fact by talking about it that people will all of a sudden we're gonna have this mass suicide occurring well wait a minute I mean studies have shown for years the reduction in PTSD just by having a conversation with somebody not necessarily a therapist or it's why peer support is taken off is reduces the dead impact so we don't even make conversation we don't

encourage conversation it's hard enough our kids now are you know are on their devices so their communication is much different than what I grew up with which doesn't necessarily make it wrong but you have to realize what are the positives and the negatives and there are incredible number of positives in terms of efficiency and speed but the negatives are I'll do a whole lot of face-to-face and so when I'm really in trouble that's when

you expect me to come face to face not if you haven't set up the environment for that child and the time they're growing up very similar to what we talked just talked about in our orientation who would think a five-year-old would have clinical depression okay it happens because it's an illness why are children born with cancer their infants it's an illness it's it's something that occurs inside their body they can't control but we don't talk

about that as they're growing and I was just as guilty I ignored it I tried to put it away with Sean until it slapped me in the face so bad that first suicide attempt I no longer could look at it as a different and it's something that didn't exist so you're right I think looking at so then if we groom our kids that way to feel like they have support and that it's normal here's what you do then when we get them as young people in the fire service

guess what the parents have already know a lot of the legwork of what we need to do to go this is okay man this is normal and and now we're thrilled you're going in this profession to help people but guess what you're not gonna always help them you're gonna see really bad stuff and when it hits you remember what I we talked about in fourth grade about here you need to reach out when you start to feel this way well that's what you damn well better doing that profession.

Yeah I couldn't agree more I had a conversation with Steve Harrell yesterday who is a retired fighter pilot he actually became a fireman for a firefighter paramedic for a year so a really interesting insight into our career coming from such a high level military position but he now runs a camp for the kids of members of the military that died and what's beautiful is that includes you know succumbing to wounds or even suicide if they were on you know they

were if they were still in the military and he made the same comment like we have some kids they do well but when they go to college we noticed that they weren't doing well again so then they started opening the camp up to the college age and then now you know a lot of those kids become mentors in the camp but it's another area you don't think about as a as a kid in high school you have your tribe you have your family a tribe now they move

away across the country to a dorm room you know with with and you've kind of still been led through school now you're completely independent you've got to find out your schedule you've got to go here you've got to you know fend for yourself and create a new tribe some people are going to do it very well but if you've got someone who's already struggling mentally and then you take them away from all of their positive coping mechanisms and drop them in

a completely different place I can see how in in a vulnerable mind that could really tip them over the edge.

Absolutely and I always encourage parents when they're saying you know any advice about what you should be looking at when you go away to schools and stuff I go make sure you ask them if my child has a really bad day who do they go talk to is that 24 7 what do they make the connection we introduce them when they first come on campus how do they know when that moment hits and they'll look at me and go well that's kind of pessimistic

I know that no that's realistic and if they never have to make that phone call then when they graduate you give them an extra hug but if they have to make that phone call you don't want them at two o'clock in the morning trying to figure it out because it may be a whole lot easier to do something you don't want to think about and we don't so that's a normal it's like asking a question about all right what's the tuition and they're gonna have

their own room are they gonna share a room it's like one just one more question but it's not on the radar because it's almost like you're indicting your child by asking the questions like no I'm caring about my child by asking the question just like looking to have these programs in place for our folks is caring for your firefighters not the opposite yeah and then to me that's tantamount with with saying oh is there a chiropractor in

the school area well that's kind of pessimistic it's no it's self-care and it's physical self-care and it's mental self-care and even if the kids are doing incredibly well and they're very resilient this is an ongoing care process and the fact that a counselor psychologist psychiatrist needs to be seen just when the shits hit the fan is another complete fallacy like we we have things that we deal with and it can be in our profession which is very

extreme or the rest of life which can be you know I mean your your story so far and you're going to carry on the traumas that you've experienced outside your profession alone would would you know would be an incredible load with on all of us so to view any sort of mental health support as in any way less important than physical health is is absolutely ridiculous yeah I I agree and I think the the other part that's really really important

is is that is that whole looking at it at the population we've centered on that suicide is is obviously a struggle now when dealing with first responders but it but it truly is a societal problem and I think if if if we go at it as a society then it removes even when you get into a profession like ours it really kind of ramps up the fact that yeah you're you're held to this wonderful standard of that you're you're gonna make save the

day that then they're not caught in that battle of well yeah but I can't feel this way because I'm supposed to be there for everybody else no you're a pretty special person that you're in this vocation to start with and when you feel that way just get it taken care of and then go back to doing what you're doing and all through life if people are raised that way then it just becomes a whole lot easier to do.

Yeah yeah and I think the other thing that people miss like I I hurt my back a few years ago and through the rehab and foundation training some other things I found I ended up coming back stronger and that's the other element of the mental health side is if you you know I mean obviously Sean's case is different because he had you know like you said a terminal mental battle that you know he wasn't able to win but you know most of the population

if you address what the issue is you're gonna come back more resilient you're gonna be stronger you're gonna you're gonna be more more able to deal with whatever comes your way the next time but if you don't address it you're slowly breaking down breaking down breaking down and would you do that physically if you hurt your back would you just leave the pain there or you know sad case we see so many people just take pills and don't don't ever fix it

at some point as a firefighter you're gonna break and you're gonna you're gonna have to retire out because you blew your back out versus you address the issues that caused that back injury in the first place and now you're the go-to guy anything anytime someone needs to be dragged out of a building because you've addressed that issue and you came back stronger now I couldn't agree more and what you said before was powerful and I meant to

follow up on it about it going to see a counselor looking at you either do it in a crisis or that it's you don't do it and I always get a kick out of sometimes after I'm I finished doing Sean's talk I'll always make sure to say yeah I need to go see my counselor for an oil change and people kind of look at me and I go yeah when I'm feeling anxious or when I'm noticing that I'm eating something and my eating habits have changed and all

of a sudden I'm eating a lot more and it's tasting really good and I go I just go in for an oil change you go you know what this is how I'm feeling lately is that that it'll be might be coming up on Sean's anniversary it might be a holiday or it might not be anything at all something might have triggered me at work and I'll get yeah here's what's going on and it's completely normal and good you got your radar up or no that is none to do

it anything you're just you just happen to be hungry for extra pizza that way and it just checking in every once in a while even if you're making big decisions in your life to go here's my thought process they're bouncing it off somebody who's listened to loads of stories and can can kind of predict a little bit better good healthy paths to go down to is really powerful exactly what you said about if I and I have a bad back to now I have to

go in more for routine to get it checked and learn the positives doing stretching and core exercise stuff that I honestly I was never a stretcher ever and anything I ever did in but now it's normal for me to go I need to take the extra time to do that well okay take that extra hour to go see a counselor once a year even as you do your annual physical just to go hey here's what's going on in my life in the last year well you you had two

major calls and you had to put your dad in a nursing home did you get that you're you were under an incredible amount of stress high handle in that just a conversation and it may be that you're handling it really really well and it may be that you're heading down a path that they can go do you see where this is going and how you're treating it may I suggest that you go this way I didn't think about that didn't know it was gonna do that

okay got it it's that simple it really it really is in most cases people try to make this it's it truly is behind the curtain some type of a magician and it's not it really is self-care and self-love to get yourself to a point of where you're like I am worthy of getting that kind of help I'm gonna get it and I'm gonna move on because then I am gonna put the cape on and benefit all sorts of other people my spouse my family and my profession because I'm healthy.

Yeah absolutely couldn't agree more now I want to get to one more area and then we'll do some wrap-up questions but before we start recording you told me how Eileen had come up with me I helped you come up with the concept of comparing mental health and cancer together and then how that sadly tied into you know to her own health so would you be able to tell that story?

Absolutely so probably 2014 so I had been doing Sean's presentation for five years at that point and it had gone from you might get five people in the audience and who were all struggling to now people asking for it to be a keynote speech between four or five hundred people and but every audience I could look out and see seventy percent of them halfway through it were like they're getting this they're understanding that this is truly a

physical illness and then the other thirty percent it just a lot of empathy and or sympathy in their eyes and I'm like I am not connecting on this I've got to find a way to make them believe that when you've got depression or anxiety or bipolar that it's actually something chemically going on in you so we sat down and said what about if I compare this to a physical illness what do you think and we talked about cancer and we agreed let's do

brain cancer and so I put together a couple of slides that basically took people through the fire service with cancer in the fire service with brain cancer and basically started off with saying okay as a firefighter are you exposed to dangerous byproducts that would put you in a position where you're more likely to contract cancer? Yeah you are.

Are you exposed on the mental health side to these emotional traumatic situations that would make it more likely that you might have some mental health challenges? Absolutely okay check the first box. The second one was is there any way to diagnose this? Does there some way in the organization something for them? Well on the cancer side we've got an annual medical we have saved lives through that cancer screening.

On the mental health side not so much in most places there's nothing so that person who's gone through those traumatic calls and then ends up having to put their dad in a nursing home we if we have a blood pressure that's a tick too high you're not supposed to go back to duty until you follow up with a physician. That person that we know has been through a trauma we don't give them even a recommendation that you need to go see somebody so we've got a whole. The next level is denial.

Can I get a lump on my back? Yeah it's just a cyst. I'm not gonna go get that checked out. I'm sure it's nothing at all on the cancer side and certainly on the mental health side we deny and say no I'm you know I'm fine I'm just a little crabby or I mean nobody sleeps well or it's just an extra drink or whatever or my wife doesn't understand me and so we deny it.

And then you go to the next level of can you be if you seek help can you be cured and on the cancer side yeah there's a lot of treatment there's a lot but there's hope and on the mental health side is there for that also? Yes there is. And both contingent on you must seek treatment and the last level is what if it's terminal. What if you have terminal cancer what ends up happening? Well they treat you to buy quality time quote unquote.

We can't save you but we're gonna try and make the best of the time that's left. On the mental health side the challenge was for Sean was let's see if we can get him a little bit more quality time maybe life will be better. In both cases the end result is the same you no longer have that person sitting at your kitchen table for Christmas. The difference is when there's a firefighter's funeral who passes away from cancer the place is packed.

The family's embraced meals are brought things are done. When you have a firefighter who takes their life it's crickets at the walkthrough. The family might not be talked to at all. I've had and this is a true story I've actually had a fire chief in the last two years tell me a story from out east about a department where a young man took his life firefighter. The neighboring agency was the one that responded to his call.

The guys that were on the call were guys were in the academy with this young firefighter. The department that lost the firefighter the chief brought in critical incidents dressed a briefing wanted to have just get everybody together at another time just this kind of a follow-up. He invited the department who responded to the incident all of them and their significant others and the chief said to his people if you go to that debriefing you're just as weak as the guy who killed himself.

Now that that bullshit attitude is still people say to me well Pat do you think things have come a long way since Sean passed things have definitely progressed. They've still we are having much more of a conversation but there's still a lot of people out there that feels exactly the way that guy does he just was stupid enough to open his mouth. So what does that do to the guy in his organization who's sitting there feeling really bad about himself and depressed.

He sure the hell is not going to go seek any help because you're weak. We've told that story. So I put this slide together and then I followed it up with the medications that you're given for cancer can kill you. The medications that you're given for when you're dealing with mental health they can also the number one side effect of at least the last dozen medications and I'm probably understating it that Sean took was suicidal ideation.

I remember one time saying to the doctor did you get the damn memo about why my son's in here. He tried to kill himself and you're telling me the medication you're going to pour into him has a side effect of he's going to think about killing himself. What what am I missing in this story. He said that's just the truth. We have to tell you the truth. That is the side effect and eventually then you end up that all you can do in either case is to love them.

One thing I will tell you specifically about Sean that is the lack of Irish Catholic guilt that both Eileen and I had was he knew we loved him even in the most dire situations when I was upset. I couldn't understand what was going on. I always hugged him. I always told him that I loved him no matter what. And I can at least live with that fact that when he crossed over my dad was there waiting for him. It was his time and he knew his parents loved him.

You need to do that when somebody and we do a better job of that when somebody is dying from cancer we tell them in those final days. God I'm really sorry if I said anything to hurt you. I was a stupid kid blah blah blah blah. And I'll always miss you and I'll always love you. We don't you may not get the chance with that when we're dealing on a mental health side.

And since I've done those two slides the difference when people will come up afterwards go you know I I got to be honest with you Pat. I didn't really get it get it about it being physical until you put those slides when I went oh my God I got it. The light bulb just went on. And I'll fast forward that's in 2014 and 2016 I had every intention of retiring. I was going to turn 60.

The oldest pub in Ireland is called Sean's Pub and Eileen and I were going to be sitting in there and I was going to raise a pint of Guinness and go done. In January of 2016 she was diagnosed with geoblastoma stage 4 brain cancer. Inoperable nine tumors in her brain and no hope that she was ever going to get better.

And I remember sitting on the bed in our bedroom when the ER called and said you need to get in here and just starting to sob and I was like we know didn't we know why didn't we pick that. And I always wonder did somebody whisper in my ear and go get ready because what you were talking about about the happen and I watched it. I watched her fight with the same courage as Sean. I watched her start to waste away the way he did except the difference was with the cancer you could see it.

You could never see it on Sean if he walked in a room but you could see it in the pain and the struggle and the ultimate that I took a vow when I got married I was going to protect my wife and I was going to protect our kids and I buried a wife and I buried a son and I live with the fact that even though logically I can say these were diseases you're not God you couldn't cure them. I still live with the fact I didn't protect them.

Part of that CAPE struggle that I'll probably take to the grave until I get a chance to go see them again but it makes it real for people and it made it real for me and when I tie those journeys in now and the pain now everybody's like bump goes on and I feel like I didn't want to sacrifice their lives but neither one of them died in vain.

They died to give back to keep that going so that somebody else may be more likely to come forward in either arena but certainly hopefully in the mental health arena to go I don't want to get to be terminal I want to get better. I'm so sorry Pat. I mean just again like I said the personal side alone is just devastating to hear your story and then you add again you know a full career in the fire service. What did you use personally for your own mental health?

You know losing Sean and then losing Eileen. I can tell you that it was the second time I learned so obviously it was a whole lot easier to talk about it and from the very beginning from diagnosis incredible support from Eileen's family, the Madden family, huge family who came and supported her friends.

Literally we never ever had a time where she wasn't with once she became where she needed bed and she needed wheelchair and whatever or there wasn't a friend that stayed in the end with people staying overnight because that hurt my back lifting her and I couldn't lift her anymore and the love and support and the constant communication. My niece encouraged me she said you can't send out a hundred emails to all these people so use Caring Bridge.

Use this vehicle to be able to just kind of educate people daily or weekly on how our condition is and so I wrote and it was therapeutic for me as much as I would sob through what I wrote it was like and people hung on to that they said it was invaluable to feel like they were part of the journey because they felt helpless but the other part that was absolutely the number one for me was my faith.

I truly believe like my picture of heaven James is my wife's got her arms around Sean and they're both smiling and they're both healthy and they're really happy that they're together in believing that they were somewhere else so I'll finish the story on an upbeat what sounds like a downbeat but it's an upbeat for me and again it might be somebody listening this may be what they need to hear.

So I shared the story about Sean Z and my dad so there's with a son getting married Patrick in November and so the goal of the chemo and everything was to get Eileen to the wedding and then after that it was all bets were off.

So we're 13 days away from the wedding and my son and my wonderful daughter future daughter-in-law Abby came to see my wife and my son sat with her in the living room and I was in the kitchen emotionally listening to this incredible discussion he's like mom if you got 13 days left in you and she said I didn't fight this hard to not make that wedding so we literally were making arrangements because the wedding was downstate to get a hotel room cleared out put a hospital

bed in it my brother-in-law Terry had had souped up her wheelchair with shamrocks and green lights and we're gonna make this as positive as we could the very next day that was Halloween next day on November 1st which in the Catholic Church is All Saints Day and went out for a run and I had I have an old Walkman that Sean had my firefighters look at that go what the hell is that chiefs pretty funny I'm like explained his story to go and

mostly when I hold it I feel him and but the batteries I hadn't paid the attention so I lost all of stuff that was pre-programmed and so I'm furious as I'm getting ready to do this run and and I'm trying to program stations in and the first station that comes on is a religious station and now I'm even more pissed I'm like I don't want to list any religious music I need something that's gonna get me through this run and it's and

I can't even quote it specifically I have no idea what the song was but all I remember it says when you feel like you're powerless and you can't protect anymore dropped to your knees and asked for help so literally in the middle of this forest preserve trail I dropped on my knees and said God I don't have it I can't save her what am I gonna do what I've done it again and got up change the channels finish my run come home I walk in and her

girlfriend was staying with her said there's been a change I go why didn't you call me she said no no she's fine but there's been a change you need to go in and talk to her so I did I walked in the bedroom and I said hey what's going on I hear there's a change she said yeah I'm not gonna make the wedding when wait a minute we just had this conversation last night and you said I'm yeah no you can tell people I'm gonna make my transition I

go what happened she said I saw Shawn I go where did you see she and she pointed to the foot of the bed and I go how did he look and it had been ten years at this point she goes Pat he was beaming he was healthy he was happy I was like okay that's great did he say something to you and she said yeah he said mom I'm coming to get you and three days later she passed and there's no doubt I held her hand when she took her last breath he had a hold of

the other hand and she went over with him and if I didn't believe my dad her and Shawn all of them were someplace I'm thinking that whole thought about taking your life would have come on my radar again and I can honestly say after Shawn died I had one of Eileen's friends call me and said I just need to do what you tell people to do I'm gonna ask you straight out are you thinking about killing yourself and I said no but if you told me

tomorrow I was gonna be dead in the morning I throw a party so that faith is what's kept me going and then the support of friends and family and in feeling like I need to move forward with my life and it's okay to be happy and have relationships and got me there but in those darkest moments if I if I didn't have my faith I'd be screwed.

It's just such an incredibly powerful story and with both of them with Shawn and Eileen and the effect that they had in their lives and then obviously the knock on effect that we're having this conversation now it's gonna be listened to around the world around planet Earth is just it's incredible and I had a gentleman on twice now Dr. BJ Miller who's a hospice physician and he talks about the only time he really saw like a struggle before

someone would pass was if there was regret you know I didn't do enough with my life and it seems like you know with Shawn seeing your father and then with Eileen seeing Shawn you know how amazing that that was so apparent and so vivid in each of these two chapters because I believe it I'm not you know of any specific organized faith but I think it takes a certain amount of arrogance to think that we just manifest and then poof back in and

that's it this is all for nothing so I believe I mean there has to be somewhere else you know we're an energy and I think that biologically I heard someone say that in three years every single cell in the human body is new but the consciousness and spirit doesn't change you don't every three years go oh now I'm you know this different person though so from whatever your beliefs are I think there's so many powerful moments I've had you know

moments where that life's like my wife smelt my my grandfather's pipe smoke she didn't even know he smoked a pipe you know that I've had all these things where where I've had a similar experience and you know obviously it's it's not going to stop the pain of losing your loved one but but to know especially like like Eileen was saying that Shawn is happy now that she you know you see my grandfather passed away from cancer as well and at the

end you want them to go the body has betrayed them and you're like just you know let them go let them be be free again so I mean as heart-wrenching as the story is it's a beautiful beautiful story as well well and it gave me great comfort because we had so we had a wake on a Monday a funeral on a Tuesday a wedding rehearsal dinner on a Friday and a wedding on a Saturday and Eileen said to me the day before she passed she said you can't be sad

at that wedding everybody will watch you and they will cue off you and it's not fair to Abby this year should have been all about her and it was all about me so this is what I said honey I've been married to you for 35 years and you've asked some pretty difficult things but this one tops the cake I don't know that I can do that and she said I'll help you I go you're gonna have to because I don't think I can do it and we made it through

what was an amazing wedding both families incredibly I mean my sons-in-law's are amazing people everybody jumped in because they knew what this meant this day meant all of Eileen's friends were like we are not going to let this day be sad because she is free and happy and she loved the dance she married the wrong guy because I can't dance worth it everybody and that Florida DJ said to me goes I've never seen this kind of energy I've been doing weddings

for 20 years and the energy out here is just not normal and I go yeah that's because she's out there so it really does keep you going and it's what drives me when I do the talks to just go people go I don't know how you can get up there do that I go I don't I go I've got all those firefighters who lost their lives standing behind me going you need to talk about this and I've got my dad my son and my wife who used to stand in the back

every time I did the presentation she was the lady in white who stood that's what she did go I've got them all now but they're behind me and they're going you can do this and that's how the message ends up getting there.

Yeah and I don't think there's any way to honor the fallen other than to use that for change you know whether it's cancer research or mental health or you know whatever it is and I talk about that a lot like if you bury that under the carpet you've dishonored the very memory of that person but if you use that death as a learning experience like we lose a firefighter in a class we had two firefighters killed in Orange County and you know there's

an actual entire bill now in their name to remind us to pull seating when we go in and also a placard that shows the construction of a building you know so that's how you honor the fallen is you keep their memory alive and then if it's something that you can change and obviously in their memory they were both a huge part of the mental health journey that you've been on and teaching so many of us that's how we do it but if we ignore it the

same way as if we ignore the mental health issues that we have not only are we not changing anything but you're it's a huge disrespect and dishonor to the people that we did lose.

I couldn't agree more I think it's basically saying that if you don't do something with that loss and the tragedy you've kind of written off the purpose of their lives and the purpose of what they went through as opposed to going their lives were incredibly meaningful whether it's a child only lives to five or whether it's a mom who lives to 95 you're taking their lives and going they went the path they were supposed to go you were supposed to learn

from them and if you didn't shame on you because they did their job you're not doing yours and if you carry it on then they do have eternal life even here on earth because people I always say at the end of my talk I won't know whether you did a damn thing about what I said when you walk out here I most of you I will never see again but I go they'll know I said so you're part of Sean and Eileen's team and I expect you to go out there and be disciples

about what they were doing and if you do that I'll be fine because you don't want to piss them off. Beautiful well speaking of you know the change you and I actually met at the Rosecrans symposium with Dan DeGrasse and Dana was the one that introduced us so I'd just love to hear your insight on that because I thought it was an incredible event and I want to give it some more exposure in this conversation as well.

What I found and so here's the irony I told you about that Sean went to a treatment facility when he had the drug addiction well it was Rosecrans which is where the Florian program currently exists and Dan reached out to me another one of those meant to be's was we were trying to put together the Chicago Fire Department had a wonderful family focused day where they would invite everybody from the department and their significant others

and families to have kind of a festival atmosphere but have a number of vendors who were there that provided mental health services for families so they could kind of just pick up a card anonymously or hear about it and they needed to follow up they could and we were trying to replicate it in the suburbs and as usual I thought things were a lot simpler than they were and so Dan got invited to come to this meeting and I had just used his video where

they had lost a number of Chicago firefighters in one year to suicide and Dan had gone on TV and had shared the pain of this and also the struggles his dad had gone through and I thought God is a powerful guy so I would use the video in Sean's class and all of a sudden we're having this meeting this guy walks in and I go I know you and he's like well I don't know you well I use your video and it's like he sat down within five minutes

but you know what you guys think this is really easy don't you this family focused day is tough and we started talking about things and then we got invited out to the National Fire Academy and it started talking about mental health and the challenges and Dan was on this mission that he was going to have somebody a treatment facility that was going to have a first responder a firefighter specific program and the next thing there's this reach

out to me going would you ever want to sit on a committee that would be part of this and I'm like oh god that's perfect that's what we need it's at a place called Rosecrans I'm going where like Rosecrans I went do you know where that is I go yeah I know right where that is and I always say that was meant to put our paths together and so the symposium that that Rosecrans sponsors and and talks about and now there are a number of treatment

facilities that are that are turning up the IAFF has an incredibly powerful one and others.

The program is identified to bring people in who are interested in doing peer support to bring counselors in and are interested in going into this field because believe it or not I've talked to some counselors it goes I wouldn't touch you guys with a 10-foot pole I respect the fact that you're right we got to understand your culture but your culture is so complicated and frightening to me I would need my own constant therapist to sit

and listen to you the stories of the trauma your people go through on a regular basis well good I respect your honesty and we don't want you treating our people because that's exactly the problem so so Dan brings people together that have the passion they want to be involved in this that tell the story mine's more like an awareness like I said I got a degree in psychology and that it has nothing to do with any of this but so there's an awareness

then you bring the people who've got the passion for it like you do they've got the communication and ability to spread the messages you do then brings the trained people in to go hey this is what this disease is really like and here's the physical components of it here's how you can treat it here's you can do with your EAP here's how you can put a peer support group together and instead of going this elephant's too big we can't take a bite out of it those

symposiums provide the way to say here's how you eat the elephant over the next five years here's what the little piece to eat today and here's the PC tomorrow and it makes it much more objective and doesn't make seem like it's overwhelming and finally they bring in people who just inspire you that tell their stories of resilience and you go by God you made it and another one of these reasons that what you went through is not going to go in

vain because I'm going to take your story and parts of it and I'm going to help fight my fight too and the more I always think of them and I think of it only in the United States now but it could be around the world when you have those little pins on a map where people usually put it on where they've gone to be case I'm like wouldn't be wonderful if the map of the United States was covered in pins and every one of those pins was a

person in an area that was fighting for the mental health of their families and their first responders we would kick the shit out of this a lot faster than what we're doing right now yeah I couldn't agree more and Rose Kranz was I mean I would say it's the best conference I've been to I've been to some great fire conferences but like you said that that combination of of true clinicians people with incredibly powerful stories you know

Sarah Sarah Yankee her her piece was like a comedy show it was fantastic so but it was just so much fun and in between everyone's you know talking and yeah I mean if for everyone listening if you haven't been yet I know it changes from place to place I couldn't recommend it more it was so so powerful and obviously you and I met I've got Sally coming on very soon and then some more people down the road as well so such a great networking tool and

you know a group of people that are all sitting side by side going we get it and we're going to be part of the change yeah and in the other thing is always that has really inspired me was looking around at the age of people in the group because you've got young people who are are passionate about this now and go well why can't we and that's the same thing we went through when people tried to introduce physical fitness it's the same thing we went

through when people tried to introduce that you're going to do cancer prevention it's the same thing now in the mental health as you've it's got to be driven from top to bottom throughout an organization but that young next generation if they go we are going to normalize this and we're going to tackle it and we're going to put it in a box and do what we need to do with it and everybody will understand what they need to do then we will

move as far ahead as we have with physical fitness and as far as we're moving with cancer it won't be this anomaly of yeah well we can't tackle that one yeah you can because the people who care they're driving it and they are not going to stop until they make sure that they truly are taking care of their brothers and sisters the way they should. Yeah I couldn't agree more there's some pissed off firefighters out there and I'm certainly one of them.

Okay so I want to transition to some closing questions because we've been talking for well over two hours so thank you so much for being so generous and I just wanted you know the story to unfold in its I guess fullness would that be the right word but so I'm glad that we were able to really expand on all the areas and you were able to tell Sean and Eileen's story properly.

So the first question I love to ask is there a book that you recommend it can be what we've discussed or something completely different?

You know I guess for resiliency one of the books that I read was Plan B and it deals with it's the story of a young mom and wife who lost her husband they went away on a vacation and they passed away her husband passed away suddenly on this vacation and her journey of going through and dealing with the therapy of how to get through this and what to do in the psychologist sitting with her and go well give me the ideal night that you would

have tonight and she was like well we have parent-teacher conference and my husband would be sitting next to me and we'd be in the room and we hear how wonderful our children are doing and well that's good that's Plan A. Plan A is not possible anymore so what's your Plan B and I think for me that was a light bulb that went on and said okay you can't all those things that were and you were blessed to have blessed to have Sean for almost 21

years I was blessed to have 35 years of marriage to a saint who lived with me instead of trying to hang on to that because I can't anymore I've got to be okay with the fact that I'll see him later but I can't I don't have that now is what's my Plan B and for most of us we don't have a Plan B especially with life and so being open to there are other things that you can do there are other ways that you can love there are other ways that you

can move forward a lot of people that sit in my position are told you need to move on and I saw a TED talk in a blanket now on the young lady's name but she had gone through a horrific where she lost a young husband she was pregnant at the time lost the baby lost her mom or somebody recently and but she was remarried now and very happy four years later and she said you know I got really freaking sick and tired of people tell me

you need to move on because she was moving on to me meant that I left behind every good thing I had she said my second husband fell in love with me because of how my first husband and I developed what he did to be a part of me that's why he fell in love with me in so I'm moving forward because I need to when I move forward means I can bring all those good things with me and I'm gonna do that and I went between Plan B and that video it

gave me permission to go I need to move forward and I've always got to be thinking what's your plan B so those are probably the most powerful things that hit me yeah no it sounds like a great book for everyone to read and the concept is you know spot on I mean in many things in life you know we want it to be one way but that's not always the case I mean I would love for my family unit to be together I don't want to be with that particular

woman anymore but I hate the fact that my son has to bounce from house to house but the reality is that's not the way it's going to be anymore and so yeah I mean you can apply that to so many elements of life.

Absolutely. The other one I recently read was Dare to Lead with Brene Brown and it talked a lot about vulnerability and about and this is more in the leadership side but it absolutely fits into the mental health realm of looking at yourself in the mirror and realizing that you're not perfect and that you've got things that you need to work on and that those aren't shortcomings that they're just part of the human condition and that it's okay to expose

that to your people and I think what it enforced for me was I should have been more human to my folks when Sean was going through what he went through and if I had been I would have as I said I think created a much more healthy culture about what mental health was it didn't have to be a tragedy in order for that door to open and so that's another one that I thought was I just finished recently was pretty powerful.

Yeah I'd love to try and get her on one day I know she does podcasts but just a select few but as this grows I'm hoping that one day I'll be able to lure her onto the show as well. That's pretty cool I think you guys would be a great combination from what I read. Yeah we definitely have a good discussion I'm sure. So same question but a movie now what's one of your favorite movies?

And I think I hit on it well two and again I'm a sappy guy and I love baseball so the natural from that standpoint of the one person can have even when the entire crowd is you look like you're the only one in the crowd that believes it if you stand up for it it can have an incredible impact on not just a person but maybe an entire situation so don't ever sell yourself short I always it drives me crazy and I jump people right away

when they say well I'm just a firefighter I'm like what do you think I am?

I go that's what I am too I go my rank happens to be chief Eileen would always introduce me at family parties and somebody would go what's your husband do for a living he's firefighter and then like an hour later they go hey you didn't tell me he was the fire chief she goes that's not what he does that's what he's called in big huge difference so that one really resonates with me now about but stand up so other people won't fail and

the other one honestly is field of dreams it's like you are living this pain and sometimes you've got a there's a quote in actually in Vinay Brown's book about you know you've got to own the story and owning that pain and getting to a point of where you can take it and make it into a positive is the other thing so when people walk I mean I always I know what's gonna happen at the end of that movie and I always ball because I think about yeah

would I love to play catch with my dad one more time what an incredible thing that would be for me just for me but it also led me to that hope of yeah there's there is something out there that you don't know and you can't see but just because you can't you can hang on to that and it can drive you to do positive things and you're gonna go through pain try to own the pain try to make as positive as you can out of that and then keep pushing

forward and you will impact people that you never know that you did until it's all over with it's how we always listen to unfortunately that you can't actually have your wake while you're here because every time I've been to awake I've heard a family say I was told an amazing story I never knew about the impact so and so in my family had on somebody we all have that it's just a matter of you put yourself out there in order to do it you never know how many you're gonna impact.

I agree and that movie build it they will come I mean that phrase is so pertinent you're staring at this abyss and you have the burning desire to change mental health physical health fitness you know there's something in your kids school whatever it is when you take that first step you're not gonna have unless you're the rock you're not gonna have a million people suddenly react to it one of my friends Chad who was on the show he started doing what

he calls recovery ward and he does a class in a CrossFit gym for people that are recovering and you know he was down that journey now he's been clean for well over a year and you know he did the first one and I think there was like five people there you know the next one is and again firstly you're impacting the five it doesn't matter how many there are but trusting that if you are doing something good in the world you know the initial impact

may not be encouraging but just believe in it and build it they will come if you keep pushing it will make a difference.

Yeah absolutely I do think that last scene when you see all those lights coming in you're just like okay what are those lights those are all people and lives who are searching and they're searching to have something they can hold on to that they can move in a positive direction and that's I think that's what our message is for the fire services you can do it you can be that one person you can start that movement and the people you're gonna

save you may not ever know it's kind of like doing public education you do all these public education and the children who don't get hit by a car the families who do get out the people who do have smoked it we never really know who numbers wise we say but that's not important we know we're doing it and this fits right into that same wheelhouse to me. Absolutely all right well then on the movie theme is there a documentary that you've seen that you love? Oh boy I didn't think about that.

Wow I'm blanking at this point I'm sure there has been but I'm kind of emotionally spent at this point of my brain. No no no no problem you already gave me two movies that's fine. Okay so then the next question is there a person that you recommend to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first responders of military of the world?

Well you've had Dan on who would be the first one that I would absolutely be talking about the Illinois Fire Service Institute the director there is Colonel Royal Mortenson he would really be a powerful person to talk to because when he put together when he took over there in 2012 one of the challenges we hit him with was we do all this leadership training at the Institute and it's amazing all these fire officer certifications but really we don't

really teach people how to lead we don't talk about when the guy walks in and says you know my wife just filed for divorce we don't talk about how to handle the problems that really are the big problems in the firehouse and he put together this amazing program based kind of on truly on what he did for training in the military and one of the components that I kind of pushed back on after it was put together was there's not enough mental

health in here he's like geez pal will you slow down I just need to kind of crawl before I start walking it's coming I've been and he became a true believer and has built this great training room resiliency model not just now in that class but has built it into all sorts of different classes like rope rescue or whatever you're still gonna get a component of it even like what the hell does that have to do with rope rescue you're gonna get it

no matter what and some standalone things chief James Moore is now running that program and it's just kicking butt and it's powerful for me to see because he literally called me two days after Eileen passed and he knew Eileen and said hey you know we talked about I thought the time he's just right I'm gonna make that happen and he has been an incredible advocate powerful speaker a powerful history in the military and just has done amazing

stuff for the fire service and he'll be the first to tell you and it said I struggled with looking at mental health the way you do by the way I was trained and everything he goes but I get it and I see what needs to be done and I'm doing something about it so he would be somebody I would certainly recommend you would enjoy speaking him he's just a great man on top of the other things he's accomplished. Excellent well thank you I'd love to absolutely love to.

Okay so the last thing before we talk about where people can find you is what do you do to decompress?

So I was a runner that was really really important to me and then after Eileen passed the back doctor was like no you're done with that he ran a couple of marathons and I really liked to go when I was hurting so bad during her disease I would just go out for a run cry and pray pretty much so like you can't do that which really kind of depressed me so I had a friend of mine who's become an incredibly important person in my life who said have

you ever ridden and they go you know I'm like fifth grade like riding a bike and like no like ride like you can challenge yourself physically riding it doesn't and it won't take the impact on your back and whatever so she started me on and doing you know because she said you're dumb enough that you're gonna go out there the first time ride 25 miles not real smart with your back so let's do this in incremental and she kind of trained

me into doing it so now I ride and it's it's unfortunately the one there no noise not conducive to that year round but I do that and it does give me some of that freedom or I'm out there I'm in the wind I'm in the air I can fit the date I just want to act like I'm 62 and pedal along at four miles an hour I can or if I want to pretend I'm 25 for you know 30 seconds I could push it and it I can feel it when I'm done I feel like okay so the physical

fitness is for me is still the best thing that I can do it when it's in the winter like now I go upstairs in that stationary bike in the gym and it's as boring as hell but I try to give myself different challenges to do in lifting weights and so the physical part is when I miss that I can tell like if I'm on the road and I miss it and even if just for a couple of days I'm more crabby and I don't have the energy and I and I'll

reach out and do that when I'm struggling and that has always been my my go-to.

Brilliant now I need to send you a video the foundation training I talked about that I fixed my back with is incredible actually one of the most famous athletes that swore by it was Lance Armstrong so you know big cyclist but Kelly Slater I mean loads and loads of very well-known people really really very simple practice you basically just stand there and do do a series of poses and you do it for literally 10-15 minutes but I'll

send that to you because that was absolutely no problem it was a game changer with my back so I will send that when we're done so then the very last thing then so if people want to reach out to you where can they find you online?

Absolutely the easiest thing right now and we're actually I'm working with somebody that wants to put together a I've always been real reticent about hey I'm nobody special so it's like well you should have your own web page you should have your own you know and I haven't I haven't done that and it's my own fault I've kind of gone no oh it's there's a lot more important people that need to be reached out to than me and so somebody said well you

should put together a web page so we're kind of working on it but right now honestly the easiest way to get to me is to just email me and I get questions all the time it'll it's where people reach out and ask if they wanted somebody to speak or if they're looking for a policy in their department or just looking for a little bit of information or to teach a completely different class not everything that I do is is is on the mental health some

is just basic leadership of which that's a big part is I just had them email me so so my email address the personal one is P Kenny K E N N Y I as in Isaac F as in Frank C as in Charles A as in Adam at gmail.com so P Kenny I F C A at gmail.com and for now that's the best way until everything else kind of gets up and running and then I'll have another way for them to reach out.

Excellent thank you well I just want to say thank you again it's been two and a half hours and you know we talked before I'm very cognizant and you know there's yourself Lionel Crowe there was another person every time you are going and traveling and standing in front of a group and telling your story as much of an effect as it's having as you know as we talked about it is taking a piece of you you know and it's one of those things where

as an audience member you're kind of looking like it's in a way there must be a part of it that's pulling you back from moving forward from it because you're having to retell the story over and over again and I know that you're very proud of the journey and there's so much for us to learn the listener but I'm just so grateful that you are willing to tell the story again and I know that now this is going to sit there in the cloud in cyberspace

whatever you want to call it and people can access this all over the world today a year from now 10 years from now so I just want to thank you for your vulnerability your honesty and your courage to tell what must be a very very painful story but I do know that it is going to affect thousands of lives.

Why I sincerely appreciate the forum I think the discussion we had beforehand just talking about that this story maybe I don't know how many more times I'll tell the story but I think for this in this mode the way we're in in this medium and the way that people access and your reputation I hope that it'll get out there for people and that somebody listening to it whether they need the mental health advice the leadership advice or they

just need that hope with their faith that when they listen they go I got something out of this and I feel like I know Sean and Eileen and yeah I'm going to carry on their mission and that would be that would empower me like you wouldn't believe. Absolutely and for everyone listening once you heard this make sure you share it for God's sake please because this needs to be heard well again Pat thank you so much I really really appreciate it.

Thank you I'm glad our paths cross that was meant to be also thanks James.