Nick Hall (Trauma, Forgiveness and Forcing Change) - Episode 600

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And if you want to learn more about 511, their mission, their products, then listen to episode 338 of the Behind the Shield podcast with the CEO and founder, Francisco Morales. Welcome to episode 600 of Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing. And this week I have an incredible human being. Every time we hit a benchmark number, none of my guests are more important than the other. However, I try to find something extra special for each of these big number episodes.

So Nick Hall was eight years old when a murderer burst into his family's home, shot one of his relatives and held the rest of his family hostage for 50 hours. During that SWAT standoff, there was a tragic miscommunication, and a sniper took a shot at what he thought was the intruder, but it was actually Nick's mother, one of the hostages.

Now for many people that would send them down a dark path, maybe an anti-police feeling, but ultimately Nick overcame his trauma and became a police officer himself to be part of the solution. So I cannot tell you how powerful this conversation is. We talk about Nick's early life, we talked about some of the lows that he did find himself, how he entered law enforcement, community policing, and so much more.

Before we get to this incredible episode, as I say every week, please just take a moment, go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every five-star rating truly does elevate this podcast, making it easier for others to find. And this is a free library of now 600 episodes. So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women's stories so I can get them to every single person that needs to hear them.

So with that being said, I introduce to you Nick Hall. Enjoy. Well Nick, I want to start by saying thank you so much for welcoming me into your beautiful home today. Thank you, man. So for people listening, where roughly on planet Earth are we sitting? We're in central Florida by the beach. Fantastic. So I was connected with you by Doug Munda. This is actually going to be episode 600 after he told me your story.

I kind of try and make, not that they're any more important than the other ones, but there's kind of like a landmark episode. You have such an incredible story, so I'm honored that you trust me to sit here today. Well, no pressure, man. I told him before, like when he told me who you were, I was like, oh, I listen to the podcast and I follow you on Instagram. And I was looking on your post, I'm like, oh man, I wonder who's 600. And I'm like, oh, okay.

I put a post up, who's going to be episode 600, wrong answers only. And it's been hilarious. I should have put my name. There we go. So now you know. All right. So I would love to start at the very beginning. So tell me where you were born and then tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what your parents did and how many siblings. Okay. So I was born in New York. I have a brother and a sister. I'm the middle one. I was born in Long Island in the. I forgot where I was born in 92.

I'm turning 30 this year. My parents, they separated before I was born, actually. And my dad ended up moving down to Florida with my older brother. And I grew up in New York for a little bit till I was about eight with my sister. And then we moved down to Orlando when I was eight. And you know, the big incident happened and ended up living with my dad after that. And I've been down here in Florida ever since. So obviously the incident is involving the city of Orlando itself.

Talk to me about life in New York as you remember it. And then talk to me about your mom. So I remember it's kind of like bits and pieces now. Like I remember, you know, snow, those moments. And there was a little bit of a time where we have family in Jamaica. And I stayed in Jamaica for a bit, too. So I remember I remember living. My grandma has a big old property. I remember like chasing goats and chickens and stuff.

And New York, I mean, it's what you would imagine a six year old could remember. It's a big, big city, you know, so not too much memories there. But I did have a lot of cousins. I had like 14, 15 aunts and uncles. So there was always. Wow. All on my mom's side. So there was always somebody to play with up there. So your mom was Andrea. So tell me again the woman that you remember and also, you know, things that you've learned ever since.

So growing up, my mom was it was always like, you know, us because I never really remember my dad at that point. She'd always make sure we had somewhere to stay. You know, we weren't we weren't I wouldn't say we weren't poor, but we weren't we weren't too well off. You know, kind of looking back on things, we'd always live with an honor and uncle stay somewhere. You know, there was a quiet, which is quite woman. But there was times where I earned an ass whooping.

And there was there was a specific one where I remember I'd gotten some Pokemon cards and she was like, I was going to go out and try to trade them. And she knew before I left the apartment, she's like, don't don't go trade them. They might be worth something one day. And I'm like, yeah, it's fine. I'll go and traded them. Come back in. She asked me and I don't know where I learned the word from. But she said, did you trade them? And I said, I didn't fucking trade.

And next thing I know, I'm running around like a one bedroom apartment trying not to get trying to catch a woman. And it still happened. But we had quiet. But she she was good with a wooden spoon. Now, she's obviously raising multiple children. Was was there any kind of professional career side at that point? Or was she solely just trying to try to raise all of you? So when I'm from what I remember, she was working at Macy's department store. And it was, you know, she worked there.

There are some days I'd go there and I was I was a little asshole, man. I would there was a shirts that had like toy cars and I'd take the toy cars. I'm hey, look, look, I found these. You know, I remember playing like the the video game demos like this all day, just making the time pass. I don't look him back. I don't know how long I was going to say. But I just remember always being there for a while. So you moved down from New York to Orlando.

So, I mean, you know, sometimes there's time to kind of build up to like certain specific events in people's lives. But yours just happened very, very early. So talk to me about July 23rd, 2000. So in that summer, me, my mom and my sister, she wasn't even one yet. We moved down to Orlando and we go to my aunt's house that weekend. That day is actually my brother's birthday. No one now they're supposed to my brother was supposed to come over. We're going to see him that weekend.

The Saturday morning, I remember watching watching cartoons and I just started hearing like a loud bang on the door. And I look at a random, random old white guy with a gun in his hand. And he came in. I see him. He ends up shooting my cousin. And from what I saw, he shot him in the mouth and I think I ended up going through like his spine. He didn't die. Cousins alive and well to this day. I remember seeing like all the blood everywhere in like the bathroom.

And he lets my cousin leave. So my cousin goes outside. But background on this guy, he he was on the run from the cops. He he's a what we would call a piece of shit. He ended up going to prison before for I think something. It was your bat Leo. I don't I don't really remember too much or he ended up. It was a murder or something. He gets out early. He is down Pompano Beach area. He robs a convenience store, shoots, kills a clerk. He's on the run from the cops. He gets up to Orange County.

I believe the cops try to pull him over. He ends up shooting a deputy and they're just fleeing. He's fleeing and he ends up going to our house and the garage door is open at the time. So he took that opportunity upon himself to come in and next thing you know, we're being held hostage. So at the time, you know, your mom was there. Obviously, you said your cousin was there and shot and was able to get out. But you had other siblings in there, too. Yeah. So is my is my aunt's house. So it's her.

Her kids was my cousin that got shot. And my other cousins and my other cousin has a kid the same age as it's like my what is that like a great cousin? I just call my cousin. Yeah, I guess so complicated. So it's two babies, two babies, two adults and then teenagers and me. So it's a bit of a full house at the time. Now that becomes a hostage situation. So again, you feel free to kind of fuse what you remember and what you were told, obviously much later. You know, they burst through a door.

You see your cousin shot, which must be, you know, a horrendously traumatic experience just singularly. Explain how that then became a hostage situation. So so he ends up that happens. And actually, you know, the standoff at last 50 hours, we're in the house. He's barricaded with us for 50 hours. He he starts making demands towards the end, like, you know, wanting the SWAT team negotiations. They wanted to bring us food and stuff. And it's like, well, we're in there.

He ends up moving us from different bedrooms, and there was a time where it's like one of those moments that you you remember, like a traumatic sense, like, you know, a smell or touch or something. He points the gun. He puts the gun in the back of my head, like as we're walking and like to this day, I mean, I work with guns now. But to this day, it was like the coldest gun I ever felt. Like it felt like you put a gun in a freezer and then you touch it.

I just remember feeling it on the back of my head as we're walking from he had us all. We were all in one bedroom. And then he put us all in the master bedroom, like the master bedroom closet. And from that point on in the master bedroom closet, I remember like just waking up, sleeping, you know, like, I don't know what what time frame it is. But it was like one of those moments where I remember like very like, OK, this is the first time I ever prayed.

It felt like like I was I still remember the prayer. I'm like, hey, hey, God, like, if you're there, like, just help us, you know, get us out of this kind of thing. And towards the end, he the SWAT team, they wanted to bring us food. I think it was donuts. And he told me to go get the donuts. And I remember saying no. And I told my mom to go get it. So when she once you go get the food, I just remember hearing gunshots. And shortly after he he takes me and I'm holding my sister.

He covers my head so I don't I don't see anything in the house. He actually works me out. I remember they took my sister into an ambulance. Check on her. They took looking back now, I would say it's probably like where they have a command post or something. They took it to me somewhere else. And I just remember asking, like, am I with my mom? Where's my mom? And some lady told me that she had died.

So God. So when you were in that whole hospital situation, do you have any memories or recollections of the adults trying to keep you calm? I mean, that must be terrifying for a child and it must be terrifying for a parent because I would be so damn scared if it was on my own. But to have my child in that situation, I can't imagine how horrendous that must have been for the adults.

Not not really. I mean, I I remember like I just remember, you know, always being like close to my mom, like she was near somewhere. I don't remember too many conversations. I just remember, you know, seeing I remember seeing my cousin get shot. And then another one of my cousins, when she came out of her her room, I remember the suspect talking and looking back, he was in a he was in a mental state that with the training I have now, I know it wasn't going to end with him being alive.

He was just trying to calm himself or something. I remember him, you know, like kind of paranoid as to like how many people were in the house. But I don't remember much of like, you know, like my mom talking to me or anything. I just remember really going in and out of sleep. I remember being myself did that.

Sleeping in the closet, just constantly waking up, falling asleep, like, you know, hearing noise and not hearing noise and like just losing like losing the track of time, like not knowing what time it is, what day it is, if it's day or night, you know.

So you had that kind of experience as an eight year old boy. Obviously, there's another entire lens to that situation through the law enforcement lens of that incident. So kind of walk me through, you know, what you've heard of the police response to that event and then how that unfolded in tragedy from their end. So, unfortunately, a SWAT sniper ended up shooting my mother thinking she was a suspect. And initially, that area where my aunt lives is a county jurisdiction.

So it was Orange County SWAT team that was there at first. And I don't know the numbers of like how many they had on the team at the time back then, but it was small, smaller than it is now. And so they asked for relief from OPD. And I think the basic changing of information between the two teams was we have a house full of, you know, African Americans with a white male suspect.

But the only issue is I'm the only dark one in the house. Everybody is light skinned. So I think when she when she went to the door by the garage, they didn't see her face. I think they just saw like an arm like colored, you know, like like colored hand or something. And they ended up shooting through the door and striking my mom. Now, one of my OPD friends had said from what he was told that the shooter had also put his clothes on your mom. Is that right?

I'm not sure on that. OK. Yeah. That might be a new perspective then. I know there's well, I haven't done it yet, but I would like to like, you know, look at the case report on it and a debrief on that. Yeah, because I asked him, you know, as you know, some agencies don't play well together. And I worked in Orange County. Meadow Woods was actually my second due. So one station area south of where I worked.

And we would also do a lot of the stuff where we'd follow the bearcat on the SWAT course. So I'm familiar with the county, familiar with the SWAT team. And so I said, oh, you know, was there a good communication between the agency? And he said, well, looking back, the fact that they called OPD when it's actually closer to another county's jurisdiction tells me that actually, yes, they did.

It was just, you know, not just but where the failure was, was the communication. And that one, like you said, that that lack of detailed description caused that one, you know, horrendous decision. Yeah. So walk me through as an eight year old boy. I mean, the event itself is horrific and, you know, that's an acute trauma. But now you don't have your mother. So, you know, what was what were the next years like for you, you know, and your family dynamic?

So the next year I ended up still living with my aunt. I go to school in Orange County. Third grade, you know, I kind of I remember there was times where like I'm just crying in class having like a tantrum or whatever. And I stayed there for over a year. And after that, I come to Bevar County, end up living with my dad and my brother and stepmom.

And for for most of my younger childhood, I kind of felt like it was my fault that everything had happened because I remember like leaving the garage door open. So I had a hard time thinking like if I just let the garage door close, you know, no, this would happen. And my stepmom kind of like helped me get through all of that. You know, they put me in they tried to put me in therapy and stuff like that. But I didn't I don't remember that ever working.

Then growing up with my stepmom and then starting to kind of learn about God and having, you know, relationship with God. It was kind of like understanding everything happens for a reason. You know, there's a higher there's a higher power like there's a reason why this happened, you know, so that that kind of helps me get through it at a young age. Now, had that happened, say, a year, year and a half ago, obviously, you know, it would have immense media exposure.

What was the what was that element? What was that response to the story? So I know I'm gonna have to ask my cousins about like the how the media took it, because I mean, you can still you can you can find it like there was news articles about it, but it didn't. I think I think information travels a whole lot faster now and people are more quick to choose to be upset about certain things.

Like if it were to happen now, I mean, it would have it would have been one of those things you see on like CNN every day. And like, you know, you have a white cop shoots black woman unarmed, you know. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You have Al Sharpton at your house for the next two weeks. I mean, Johnny Cochran was actually on the case. I don't know if you remember him. Oh, really? So I didn't I didn't know that till I got older. I'm like, I don't know who Johnny Cochran is, you know.

Was he was he part of the OJ case? Yeah, yeah, it was a whole lot of the glove fits. Yeah, that whole thing. Yeah, PR in law. All right, well, then I kind of want to get obviously to your journey to to, you know, the career that you chose. And I think that's what makes it such a powerful story. I mean, amongst so many other areas, but I want to kind of lay out the rest of your kind of childhood. So what about sports? You know, what were you playing?

Because you ended up in a very physically demanding profession. Were you doing any sporting events or training in a certain way that ultimately unbeknownst to you would set you up for that? I mean, I played like JV football for a little bit. But, you know, back then, I don't know. The main thing, working construction, I guess, is kind of a workout like functional fitness. And so after after high school, I gave the timeline here. So, you know, after high school, turn 18, I graduate.

I started finding out, you know, my dad's having an affair. He was with my stepmom for, like I said before I was born, my parents separated. So, you know, over the majority of my lifetime. And when I came here, she just felt like another mom to me. And so I was the mama's boy growing up. So it was kind of easy to continue to be a mama's boy. Find out he's having an affair with some lady in a different country. And I'm just hearing my parents, you know, fight every night. He's leaving angry.

She's sitting there crying. Find out what's happening. And I just start losing respect for him. Anytime they would go out of town, I'd have friends over smoking weed, partying, you know, doing whatever. One day they come back early and they see the house is trash. So, you know, I didn't want to come home. And my dad's like, you know, if you don't call me back today, don't bother coming home. So I was like, OK, like I already lost respect for him. Didn't want to live with him.

Didn't know how to say I don't want to live here anymore. You know, it's kind of the way the way he raised me, my brother, he's kind of it's like one of those mega authoritarian kind of deal where the parent always says this. You do it. You don't do what I say. Not as I do. Yeah, that like your feelings don't care about it. This is a task to complete, you know, which come to learn that doesn't work with my six year old.

Like, I'm learning these kids have emotions you got to deal with at a young age. Yes, there's no manual. Yeah. So so after that happens, you know, I'm homeless, living in my car in the Orlando area. I figure I could crash some of my friends houses that are in college while I'm not at the moment. And that lasts for maybe a couple of months. Not not too much. You know, I try panhandling. I wouldn't wouldn't too good at it.

I'm like a 18 year old kid. I remember telling people, hey, I know it doesn't look like it, but I'm homeless. Do you have any money? And I'm like stretching trying to stretch McDonald's value menus for like a week. Like, I remember when I was staying with my friend, I bought maybe like 10 McDonald's. And I thought I could like have one a day after like after like the sixth day. It was like, OK, this is not I don't mean this is good for me.

So they probably looks exactly the same as when you bought. Yeah, I probably didn't need to put them in the fridge. You just leave them on the top of the dash. So so and after after couch surfing, my girlfriend, my wife now her in the meantime of this, she's she's living over here, driving over there, like giving me money anytime she can. She's 16, 17, working at an ice cream place. And she's just looking back, man, we were dumb, but grateful. Like she she was a solid.

So she asked her parents if I could stay with them. And they're like, OK, you stay here for a week and you need to figure something out. And during that week, my dad comes by his all my shit packed. And actually, now this is not this is not the time to get on my ship. This is the time before we get there. He he gets there, he's a come on, like, stop doing your bullshit. And I'm like, I don't I don't want to live with you anymore.

You know, and we have an argument saying I wish you were dead instead of your mom. Then he tells me that he's not even my real dad. And I'm like, OK, whatever he he leaves. So he says that my guy, let me fact check this call one of my many aunts. And hey, my dad said he's not my real dad. That's true. And she goes, yeah, I was going for somebody to tell you. I'm like, OK. So, you know, then I I double down and I check what all my mother on. You know, live down here, try to verify.

And sure enough, he's not my real dad. He just ended up signing the birth certificate to help my mom out at the time because she was she was single. And actually, this past, I want to say what two years ago now, I finally got in contact with my real dad. So one of my aunts had his his info, I guess, just waiting for me to ask for it at some point. And I end up getting his info and I talked to him on the phone. And the background on that, he he was an insurance agent in New York.

He sold one of my aunts insurance. And my mom sold her insurance one night stand. And he was actually married at the time. So I could see why I ended up being another family secret. So on top of, you know, having a dad that I thought was my my dad basically kind of being a POS and my real dad is not so much better. So it's kind of like, wow, double whammy. So now, was there any kind of acute impact from that? Because you have already, you know, a huge amount of trauma.

Like you said, you tried counseling, didn't feel like it worked. And of course, you're so young. You know, it's hard to process that. But now some of the stability that you'd known that you'd let into was not only taken away, but it was actually kind of thrown in your face, especially, I mean, got to say, you know, I wish you died instead of your mom. That's I can't think of anything worse. You could say to a child that lost a parent.

So did you did you kind of when you look back now, experience a kind of impact from from that secondary trauma then? Yeah, I mean, there was a is I mean, you know, the saying is like. Like the most influential parents, the same sex parent, you know, kind of thing. So definitely having, you know, no real like good genuine father figure. It affected me young, but luckily with me and my wife, we were together pretty much like my whole adult life.

Her dad, I mean, he kind of he taught me every like everything I know, everything like a man should know was him changing all, you know, changing, doing all that stuff. So it was kind of like there is that gap of not having something to look up to. So it ends up making you make bad decisions, like all the bullshit decisions and stupid friends.

I was hanging out with looking back and analyzing it's like, oh, well, you didn't really have, you know, a good background of like what a good father should have been raising his kids. But what good friends should like. Yeah. And like people that that normally they know, like because my dad, he was a retired cop and then got into like real estate when the market was good down here. So upper middle class. So, you know, they kind of just they were living in a subdivision.

So it just looked like I was a rich kid at the time. But it was it was one of those things where you could get whatever you want, but there still felt like there was something lacking. Like when I look back in and think about my relationship with him and his relationship with my older brother, five years older at the time, it was like I could see there's weird things that he would do with my brother. But there's things that I wouldn't I wouldn't really have much of a relationship.

So my relationship was stronger with my stepmom and they kind of seen all that go down was like it made me lose more respect for my dad, if anything. Now, with him being in the law enforcement profession and retiring and, you know, we're all very, very aware of the cost of the job. When you look back, were there any elements of what we might call PTSD or maybe other areas of his life that manifested when when he was parenting you?

I mean, it could have been I know he did maybe like 10 years NYPD. And I think I don't know. He never talked about any traumatic things. I mean, he was he was an agent that undercover stuff. But I think when it comes down to it, just the breaking down of like learning how to communicate with different people, you know, like the way we talk to people at work. That's not the way you can like talk to your family at home. No, definitely not.

There's times where like I'll I'll say something and I've I've learned to like emotionally detached from things to analyze it. And I'll say something like like that to her and she's like, you're not at work, but like, you know, don't you're talking to me like you're a cop. Don't do that.

Well, so speaking of that, then when you were in, let's say high school age, you talked about going into construction. But what was your dream profession? And we did you have anything that you were hoping to become high school? I really got into my graphic design. I was like computer nerd.

I did like computer classes, like three years and my dad is a straight dream killer man. Like I remember saying, hey, I want to want to do this. And it was like, well, that doesn't make any money. That's stupid. Don't do that. You know, and like looking back having a kid now, it's like the money. Money's not the end game. You're going to keep chasing it. And then that's all you're going to have. And then what?

You know, so that really I was like, well, I got no I don't know what I'm going to do. I just know they told me I got to go to college or I'm going to get kicked out. So I went to the community college down the street. And I don't even remember what I was studying and I was just taking classes. But my friends would tell you now I was barely I was barely there.

Like one thing I would tell kids now just finish school, get it all done because I'm back in college. I was back in college and I switched agencies. I'm readmitting again. I'm like, just do it when you graduate, get it done and over with because a whole lot harder to study when you have a career and a family and bills.

It's easier to just do it when you got someone else paying for your shit. Well, especially when you're trying to redo math and English and you forgot 95% because you're 20 years out of school. I tell you that from experience. And also you end up being the kind of weird old guy in the back of the hall, which is self-conscious.

All right. Well, then again, had this come out a year ago, you know, there would be all these pigeonholes of the scene of this person was this color and this person was of this background. And I think, you know, one side would definitely paint a very kind of anti law enforcement rhetoric to your story. And then it's a tragic story. You found yourself entering the very profession that, you know, on paper had had taken your mother from, even though obviously it's a lot more complicated than that.

And that person was trying to protect you. So walk me through when you graduated, you know, which professions you found yourself in. And then let's go to what made you choose policing. So after I had to graduate in high school and then the whole, you know, getting kicked out, being homeless thing. I lived with my wife's family, girlfriend at the time, stayed there for a year. And we got on our feet, got a duplex.

And my very first job was just working at Coles. And I was just, you know, moving freight in the back. I'm like, OK, like this is I need to need to do something else. So I started working with her dad in construction. And it helped it helped me start to learn my core core values, you know, like people, even if your job is a shitty job and it sucks, people still need you to finish your job so they could do their job and the whole thing gets done.

So it made me appreciate, you know, hard work and putting in good work, you know, like people won't they won't know who you are. They just see your work. You can. No one's ever really going to remember your name too much. They just know what you do. So that that really like helped mold me into where I am now. And it got it was fun. But, you know, shoveling concrete in the Florida heat, it got annoying.

Like after a couple of years, I was like, OK, I need to do something that is like I have a career in that can have benefits, health insurance, you know. So I was thinking like, all right, I want to do something that helps people. And I want to do something that, you know, makes me feel good about myself kind of deal. So I'm like doing the right thing, helping people. You know, firefighter could be that. Then I realize, you know, getting on a ladder is not that's not my thing.

We're talking that before we recorded. So not big fan of heights. No, even like putting up Christmas lights, man, I can I think this is the first year living here after, you know, almost 10 years. I got on the roof to put up the lights on the second gable up there because normally my father and I would come do it. And I'm like, dude, you're doing it until you die. But so after realizing I was going to be a firefighter, I'm like, OK, next best thing, you know, being a cop.

And my incident happened with my family. It gave me like the big perspective of this is something that can happen. You know, like, can you are you mentally prepared for this? Like, how would you handle that? And is that all that saying? You know, they say if if not me, then who? If not now, then when?

You know, so definitely one of those ones where I was like, all right, like, I'd rather it be me to go in instead of just, you know, watching all this stuff on the news about, you know, the incidents with cops, you know, they shoot the wrong person or something happens. And I want to be one of those that's just sitting on the phone, you know, Monday morning quarterback. And then I'm like, all right, I want to go in and do it. You know, beautiful.

Now, up to that point, had you experienced anti-law enforcement messaging from from family members or whoever it was that would sway you? Because I mean, you think it would be natural, you know, I mean, the same way as people even even let's take it from a racial point of view. Oh, I don't like, you know, group of people, Excel, because I was mugged by someone once. It's like, oh, that's not the whole fricking race that you know.

But you see the same with law enforcement where, you know, the uniform is a uniform. And as you and I know, you know, there are phenomenal human beings wearing uniforms and occasionally, you know, pieces of shit. Yeah. You know, there was, I mean, it's like what my dad, my stepmom at the time, they they were a little ignorant. There was a lot of times, you know, where, like, yes, racism exists.

But to constantly, you know, hear your parents say, I didn't get this or this didn't happen because we were black. And it was like, OK, I don't there's no way like every bad thing that happens to you because of race. So and then living down here, you know, my dad being from New York and they think everybody from the South is racist. So it's always all these racist cops everywhere, blah, blah, blah. And it's like you can you keep saying that, but you don't you don't actually know.

You know, so when I told at the time when I knew I wanted to get in law enforcement, I wasn't I didn't have an open relationship talking to my dad and stepmom after finding out the whole, you know, he's not my real dad thing. So I told my family on my mom's side about it and I told them why. And they respected the decision. You know, like our our family, luckily, I think being Jamaican, being immigrants, it's like we're not too caught up in all the bullshit that's happening in America right now.

And so I think it made it easier. It wasn't like it wasn't a hard conversation. They respected it. They knew I told them I wanted to do it and they believed in me. So I think that helped give me the confidence I need to, you know, get a foot in the door. Well, it's interesting point you touched on as well, because I feel that's the lens that I have coming from England to here. Doesn't mean that my opinion is, you know, worth any more anyone else's.

But your perspective is different when you're not born and bred with a certain narrative. You kind of walk into the room and that narrative is there and some elements of it might be valid, but some elements aren't.

And it's very weird then when you start hearing and in a perfect example, take race out of it, the COVID thing, you know, like went from no one talking about immunization or, you know, really conspiracies or any of the other extremist conversations that we heard to all of a sudden pick a side, you know. And, you know, either you're if you're not wearing a mask, you're a mass murderer or if you are wearing a mask, then clearly you're a conspiracy theorist, you know, sheeple, whatever, you know.

And it's like what what happened? But when you walk into that room from the outside, you're like, hey, do you realize you've both lost your fucking minds? Like the middle ground, for example, in that thing is we need to make everyone healthier. So whatever we're exposed to, you know, you got a better chance of surviving if there's tools like, you know, the real actually fitted masks or vaccinations and absolutely use them.

But also not everyone needs to have them. But yeah, and then I saw that like people became in such like airtight silos that they weren't willing to accept anything from the outside. And it was it was terrifying. That's one of the I mean, I think growing up with what I went through and then the job I have, it gives you you meet a lot of people, a lot of different people from different backgrounds.

And you got to have open mind and like just take in your information and learn from it, you know, and definitely like me and my wife, we had we had covid and I'm not vaccinated. And that got to a point where I was like, damn, this shit hurts. I ended up getting pneumonia after it. And I was like, OK, like, I know I don't really want to get vaccinated.

But let me let me do some research as to how to how to be healthier, you know, because most of the time I was I'm just looking at stuff and it's like, you know, you don't see a lot of sick like vegans or whatever. We had we have friends that were vegan and it's just like if you eat better, you live better, you know.

So I'm thinking, let me try to eat better and not eat as much, you know, shit food and try to eat better food, you know, fresh meat, you know, kind of went started doing the whole fun and, you know, local markets, getting better, better beef, no hormones and steroids and all that stuff. Just to just to kind of feel better because I don't I'd rather do that. Try that first. And if that doesn't work, then OK, then I'll research and then maybe, you know, get some random needle stuck in me.

But at the moment, I'm going to try this and see how that goes. And so far, you know, so far, it's going good. Absolutely. I think that's it. Every person, exactly what you said. They get all the right information and then they make an informed decision for themselves. Like, you know, someone living in rural Montana, Montana on a ranch has a different environmental exposure than someone living 27 floors up in New York City. You know, but it was like tarring everyone with the same brush.

And for those two, both of them, the middle message is health and the ranch hand in Montana is probably eating well, probably getting a lot of exercise, daylight, fresh air, you know, time on their own to basically be present. And then conversely, the person in Manhattan is probably overstressed, maybe eating shitty food, maybe stuck in an office for 10, 12 hours a day. You know, so those were the conversations that weren't being had.

And it's the same with, you know, we'll see, we'll get into this. But with, you know, some of the the defund and all these discussions was absolutely there at times. And you and I both know this. We've been on scenes where it wasn't handled the way it's supposed to be handled. But we have to find the common denominator as an improve the prevention element rather than just burn the whole thing down. Yeah. I mean, I mean, you can see it here, man.

We went playing crazy trying to get my my garden going. This is like that thing. There's a whole passion fruit. Oh, really? Yeah. It had it had one last year, but it broke and died on me. So definitely one to, you know, hopefully in the future, get some land and have my own farm, you know, kind of just eat fresh and try to live as long as I can, you know, enjoy life. Absolutely. Well, and we'll get into it now. But like our profession as well.

I mean, you know, we're up against especially you know, we at least have stations that we can move around in and exercise. I like to say I was I was a good amount of fat for getting covered because like, you know, it took off a couple of pounds. But like I didn't end up dying, you know, like I was still I was still healthy enough. I was just fat. So I was like, all right, I'll take that and I'll live, you know. Yeah. When is the thing?

If people got it and they kick their ass a bit, then that's a wake up call as well. I'm not not in a bad way, you know, but that's what we should get out of these these incidents is that, OK, this is an opportunity for us to grow and learn and make ourselves better. Yeah. Versus we just argue about these extreme issues, you know, vaccines, Ivermectin, whatever you want. And no one actually learns anything. And then we go back to the same frickin thing we were doing two years ago.

So talk to me then about your journey into law enforcement. You had, you know, your dad, you knew had been a cop, but you hadn't got that actively in your life. You know, was it was it an easy path for you? Was it a rocky road? I mean, getting into it at all. I think it was I would say easy, you know, because, like I said, it gave me that perspective that most people probably don't think about when they're thinking about wanting to be a cop.

And my OK, where's my real life issue that I had with it? So I know this can happen, you know. And I remember when I when I first got in, I was working construction. I had I had dreads at the time. So I go into the police academy trying to, you know, apply and they're like, well, you got to cut this. I'm like, done. You know, let's let's go. So when I when I was going through it at the time, I ended up I tried reaching out to my dad about it.

And that relationship was still kind of strange because he it felt like I was I was holding apology. And it was pulling teeth trying to get him to admit he shouldn't have said, you know, I wish you were dead instead of your mom. And eventually that conversation happened. But it was still it was still strange. But once I got into law enforcement, the first place I got to is actually let me backtrack.

So the first place I applied to was when I met Doug Mondo, when I worked at Cocoa, applied there first. They had a reserve spot. They didn't have a paid position yet. So when a surgeon was going to retire, I would fill that position. So basically, reserve is you're working there, which you're not getting paid. And my wife's pregnant at the time. So I'm kind of like I take it because it took me eight months to finally get an offer. And but I really get paid for this.

So halfway through the process with them, I got offered another spot in like a smaller town south of here. And they offered me the job on the spot on the interview. So I called Cocoa back on my I'm going to go work over here. And they're like, where am I here? And they're like, OK, good luck. So I get there. And the first stint, man, I was I was overthinking like everything, dude. It was just any basic stuff. I'm just fumble fucking around with stuff, just forgetting certain things.

I'm overanalyzing certain things, which makes my officer safety look rough. So long story short, I washed out of the field training there. And I remember the chief. I'm still friends with the chief. Now, he's a great guy. I remember when he told me, hey, in the exit interview, like, maybe you should look at, you know, working at a jail certain from there. And, you know, I came home here and I was reassessing. I'm like, I don't want to do that. You know, this is still what I want to do.

So Cocoa was still hiring. I reapplied. Lieutenant called me back and said, hey, what happened down there? And I was like, well, this is what happened. I told him my issues and why they're happening. He was like, oh, I had to wash out in field training hired me. I go through Cocoa field training. You know, all those issues are gone. It was I wouldn't say it was the place. It was just the person. It was me. I just had to like relax and remember, be yourself. So I was too thinking I'm a cop.

Like, this is the badge. You know, I got to be got to be this like, no, man, you're just a city worker, man. You know, and, you know, I breached through it there. And I think working there, you know, you kind of learn a lot about like the communities. It has its rough areas and it's good areas. And I think I grew there. You know, I liked it. I learned a lot about myself going there.

So with that burning, why in that you had as far as being the best police officer you could be to try and prevent a tragedy happening. And even though, again, not putting blame on the sniper solid by any means, but trying to be a positive force, you know, against something like that happening again. You know, what did that look like on your ownership, on your training, on your kind of journey, your your the seriousness of which you took your specific job?

It gave me it gave me those career goals of, you know, wanting to be on SWAT and wanting to be a sniper. Still on the list of things to do. And so, like, any time there's a call that was like, OK, like we got to go in the fray, there's a fighting progress, a shooting or something. And it gives you that like, all right, like, you know, your perspective. That's the fire. That's the structure fire. You go in it, you know.

So it was always like, this is it. These are the moments that this is what you wanted to do. And here it is. So go do it. So it definitely kind of gave me that that work that work. Why? You were saying like, here's your wife. You wanted to be here for this situation. And this is what you got. So go handle it. Now, what about the root causes of some of the things you started seeing when you were wearing the uniform?

Because one thing I like to do on here is just reverse engineer anything. And, you know, obviously we don't arrive on these scenes from a legal standpoint. If we're responding as, you know, fire and EMS. But I tell people a lot. The responders perspective, the law enforcement perspective is so important.

Yet there's very, very few voices out there. Like I tell people, I can name a bunch of army rangers and Navy SEALs that are very well known that are written books, but cops and firefighters and medics. Unless you're in our circle. I know books written by people. But I mean, as far as giving that lens to the general public, it's invaluable and it's almost unheard.

So when you started getting out there, you know, what were you seeing as some of the root causes for some of the violence crime that you were seeing in the jurisdictions that you worked? I mean, the main thing was the gang violence you would see up there and like the innocent people that it would affect the bystanders of victims. And it was like, and knowing now, I tell people if you're going to be the victim of a crime by a gang member, that gang member is a teenager.

You know, it's never someone old, especially in this area. It's always someone young and it's hard for a regular person to look at a 16, 17 year old and think, oh man, that guy's going to kill me for my car. Or just kill me just to, you know, just to get some views on social media, just to be somebody. And it makes you it made me kind of worry more about our youth in the future.

Like the old people you see, I don't think you can change an adult. You know, they are who they are. I can try to give them a speech, you know, hey, this is what happened to me. You can change, but if you're 50 years old, you know, you've made that decision. And this is just this is just the time of my life where I meet you and you meet me.

And, you know, we go our separate ways. I can't affect you as much as I can affect a teenager that thinks growing up in the hood and seeing his older brother be a gang member, thinking that this is his only way out because his brother makes a whole bunch of money selling dope.

So, that's one thing I liked about working there. I could kind of talk to kids more and try to get them out. I know there is, I don't remember their name, but a dispatcher had called me one time and she was like, hey, there was a family you met one time and he spoke to the mom and the son.

The mom wanted to call back and say, you know, thanks for talking to my kid. He ended up joining the military and I was like, oh, that's cool. You know, made a difference there. So, and I think that was one of the big things for me was just seeing, seeing basically kids committing, you know, violent felony crimes, killing people, you know, selling drugs, shooting.

And I can take a toll on you. Absolutely. Well, one of the root causes I see over and over again, and I talk about this all the time and I'm sure some people get sick of it, but I'm not going to stop talking about it till it's fixed. But for me, through the medic slash firefighters eyes, the ripple effects of drug prohibition. So, you know, the sending addicts to the underworld, empowering the underworld to be able to sell, to be able to smuggle that stuff.

You know what that's done for the addicts in prostitution and all these areas that to me is a very strong root cause that I see even in the poorer areas that keeps them poor. You know, they're basically profiting off the death of their community. So with your areas, what was the impact of the drug side of what you were seeing?

I mean, same thing there you would, you would see like the progression of people when they go from maybe just like a drunk homeless bum to, you know, slowly going down the road of being a crackhead and then next thing you know, you see them overdose for the last time and it's like it, you see it coming. You just don't know when, you know, and in the beginning, it's like, it's shocking new information, you know, you're not used to seeing like people die like that.

But then you start to see it a lot and sadly it's something you get numb to, you know, like, I mean, how many times you go to a call and you see somebody shooting up and you got a Narcan and bring them back. And then you bring them back. They don't want to go to the hospital. They just want to leave and it's like, if you leave, you're gonna die in like 10 minutes, but and it's, you see families get torn apart from it.

And there's like not much, not much you can do on our end, you know, we just bring them back. But it's only a just another timetable until they do it again. And I remember seeing like the there was a where they get their, I'm forgetting the name of the drug for it. When they get their meds for opioid overdose. Oh my goodness. I know exactly what you're talking about. I just fell out of my head too. I'm not a drug cop anymore, man.

The methadone. Yeah, the methadone clinic. When they go to the methadone clinic. I remember the first time I saw the methadone clinic, my heading home night shift. I see, I see a line at 6 a.m., you know, like 50 people in line, methadone clinic, go get it. And they're back out the next day doing the same thing.

And it's like, it's definitely one of those things where, you know, still kind of young, but starting to learn how the drugs were handled in the past in this country, like in the 90s, you know, the whole the war on drugs and all that stuff. And then you see that it's more of a money making thing. No one really cares about people that are addicted as long as they can make money off of it.

Money, money is like, it's the thing that keeps everything going. You know, I have seen my wife, she likes to watch all them documentaries and I get, I get roped in on it and I'm like, oh wow, that explains that. Like they don't, no one really cares about helping people as long as money's moving, it's going somewhere and someone's getting rich, you know.

Yeah, no, I mean, I do complete and this is what I talk about a lot and it all comes from you and I see it. I tell people that we get to pull the curtain back on the Wizard of Oz, you know what I mean? We see what's really going on. And, you know, we talked about health. So for example, the, you know, fire EMS and PD as well get to see that very, very overweight people with a bag of meds that we were told would reduce their cholesterol, their blood pressure, their, you know, arrhythmias.

And they still die at 40, 50, whatever it was, you know, and then there's the war on drugs and the dude with his frying pan and the egg and, you know, and no, our streets are horrendous. And yeah, there are some say, I'm sure if we, you know, you're a cop in Windermere, your view would be very different than some of the places that you and I have worked.

But the underlying element is mental health, you know, and that's probably sadly what caused that guy to even find his way into your family's life in the first place. If you reverse engineer his path, I'm sure there's trauma. And it's just, you know, this multi-generational cycle doesn't stop. And the war on drugs, you know, started in 1930s after the war on alcohol was a complete disaster.

And they, you know, the prohibition was lifted. And yet there's still, and especially in law enforcement, some of the hardest people that ask about this, you know, is when you spent 10, 20, 30 years enforcing drug laws, you know, you look at the old 90s cops show, whether you have this fucking epic car chase and then they whooped this guy's ass and then he has like a little bit of, you know, weed in his pocket. And he goes to the prison for 20 years.

Exactly. You know, you know, again, we get to question and go, look, this is not working. You know, should you arrest smugglers and dealers? Absolutely. That's a crime. It's profiting off addiction. But the addicts are probably most of what caused the crime that we see. And then the violence from fighting for territory to sell to the addicts are the things that we see as well. Yeah. I mean, questioning the legalizing addiction, you know, decriminalizing addiction, not selling.

And there's also this misunderstanding that, oh, that means you're going to go to Publix and there'll be crack a meth and you're next to the baby formula. It's like, no, just when you when you interact with someone, that money is funneled into proactive measures where you get mental health care and addiction counseling.

And this place is like Portugal and Switzerland and in other places around the world that have done it with huge success. And I always say this with this defund conversation with this George Floyd thing. It was all about you guys. It was all about all these these cops. Well, where's the conversation on the streets of Finland aren't filled with gangbangers murdering each other? What are we doing wrong with that thing?

I think that's the conversation that my profession, your profession and everyone else needs to come together, because when I ask people, especially now in 2022, people are starting to go, you know, I think that's a good idea. So if we have the same energy and gusto behind changing the mental health crisis as they did behind bloody covid, we would literally change the world.

Over there, put up that much money into it. Yeah, exactly. How many billions? What in the covid? What all the Pfizer and all that? I think I mean, you see the people, the people that I'm not I'm not really big on, you know, pharmaceuticals. I don't take any pills or anything. And it's the people that can't afford the pills. They ended up, you know, making their own drugs for the same effect. And I guess that's where that's where crack comes from.

You know, it's just, OK, I can't get this because I need this doctor won't fill it. So I'm just going to make it. And it's always it's always a spiraling thing of you get addicted to pills and then you get addicted to drugs. And then so definitely it's one of those things where you wonder if if people and the government is not going to be not going to help you like get better on your own. It's more like you got to research yourself and do your own information as to, OK, why do I feel like this?

Is there something I can do to change this? And like even there's some you're talking about earlier, like sleep, like even just getting getting more sleep helps, you know, like are just tracking your sleep. And like there's times where when I was working night shifts, I was running on four or five hours of sleep. And I'm like, this your body, your body feels worse and there's research. Your immune system is weakened with less amount of sleep you get.

So like the immune system is what you got and you kind of need that to be as good as it can get for you. So now, like my wife, she'll she'll get eight, eight or nine. And if I get my body still adjusting to getting more, if I get seven, it'll want to wake up at like six. And I wake up at like five o'clock before the alarm goes off and I'm like, damn it, one more hour.

Are you on days now then? Yeah. OK, yeah, it takes a while. It's honestly I'm not exaggerating. I did 14 years and it I want to say it took pretty much three years to reset. I believe it's kind of getting there now. So even like now, like sometimes where it'll be 10 o'clock and I'll be like, I'll just I could sit on my phone for like another hour before I'm like, I should go to sleep.

You know, yeah, there's definitely some things I do now. Alcohol. I've actually talked about this for, you know, five years on the show, how I use alcohol as a, you know, a tool to unwind. I'm very conscious of how unhealthy it was. And then I just had a three month abstinence. I had a couple of days because I had my birthday where I drank and then I'm, you know, again, haven't since then. That's been huge. I'm not drinking alcohol for me. Blue blocking glasses.

If we go to bed, I put my damn phone in the other room so that I can't play with my phone for an hour before I go to bed. And it's amazing if you don't drink and you don't. I mean, I'll even because the blue blocking glasses, I'm going to watch a little TV because I do find that helps kind of wind down. I think the blue blocking element stops you getting that stay awake stimulus.

And yeah, I'm sleepy as hell by 10 o'clock now, but it takes diligent, like deliberate routines to tell your body, hey, it's OK to wind down. You know, I'm going to get a call. I've been seeing like stuff about that, like the whole like keeping the phone away from the nightstand at night. And that's like I'm over that.

I need to start trying that because I just sit there and look at it and and with with beer because I'll I run half marathons and like towards like if I'm like a month out or a month or two out, I'll fast until then. And then this last one I ran, I took like a month off break a run in and I like drinking craft beer and those those things are heavy. They are. I started running again. I'm like, oh, man, I got a I'm about to have to like cut down on the beer again.

And it's funny. Last time I ran a marathon towards the end of the last like quarter of a mile, a doctor is like he pulls up next to me and like we're like running and talking and I'm just picking his brain. You know, you got a guy that's like maybe like 60 years old and he's about to finish a half marathon the same time I'm about to. I'm like, what am I doing wrong here, man?

Let me ask you how you feel about certain things. And he's like, you got to stop drinking beer. And I was like, like, like all the time, you know. So that's definitely one thing where I'm like, OK, I can tell when I'm when the body goes like I it feels good. But long term gain is like, you know, kind of got to space it out and like going back when you talk about decompressing with it.

There's a time when I was on nights and I was just worn out and, you know, deal with shit at work and just being up. I come home and I find myself for like maybe a month straight. I'm like drinking a beer before I go to bed at like seven in the morning.

And I'm like, and that's two things like it's not good to drink before you go to sleep. And then now you're on that night schedule like drinking in the morning. And it's like, OK, like reassess like we need to find something else, you know, because this can go down a path of, you know, bad bad body decisions.

The next thing you know, you're an alcoholic. Absolutely. Now, with that, just that I haven't visited this element yet. You had the acute trauma losing your mom. You had the trauma really as a young man, your interaction with your dad.

Then then you join a profession where you are sleep deprived, where you start seeing and having to do things that themselves are traumatic. I don't know if you experienced this, but I had agencies where the biggest trauma was who you work for and some of the politics in that. On this whole journey, did you revisit counseling? Were there any tools that you found have helped you address what you've been through when you were younger?

So mainly with me and my wife, we did marriage counseling and I found that helped. And it wasn't like, you know, like we're on the verge of divorce or anything. It was just like, OK, let's, you know, there's some issues. Let's see how we can fix these issues. And of course, all of my issues had to deal with my childhood with my dad and like how that affects my communication with people, you know, people that I love.

So mainly, I think looking back, there was never there's never anything like after what happened with my mom. There wasn't something that was was holding me up from or giving me trauma with communication or anything like that. Except my wife would tell you I had a hard time telling people I love them like her. Her mom would say it, saying bye on the phone. I'm like, I still can't say it. I can only tell my wife and my kid.

But looking back, there was sometimes the counselor helped me learn my issues were just kind of just being being my own man. And, you know, she wrote the counselor recommended, you know, making that olive branch to my dad. And I tried.

I did that. There's three separate times, you know, like being an adult. I'm in law enforcement. I have a career as a kid married. Like, I think I'm doing this right. You know, and there was one time when we're at my parents house and my wife took my daughter to the bathroom. And my dad was like, he was like, what's your daughter's name again? I'm like, okay, so you just don't care. Like, I can't. I don't want to. I can't waste my time on this anymore. So I've invested enough. I tried.

You know, I'm fine with this. This is how it is. And I realized, like, life, I mean, especially having a kid, I feel like time moves faster and there's times where it's like, I can't waste time on people that don't that don't love me. I can't waste my free time on that.

And like, even now, like my daughter is six, she's turning eight, you know, in two years. And I was thinking the other day, I'm like, like, can you imagine? Can I imagine dying in two years? You know, because that's when my mom died. I was eight. So and it's like, I feel like there's so much I haven't done yet in life and and it definitely it's hit me the older she's getting, you know, like, I just want to make sure I can live a full life now.

And like my mom, I think she was in her 40s at the time. Like she'd be she's turning 62 this year, I believe. Her birthday is this month. And I'm like, thinking in my head, I'm like, can you just imagine dying at 40 or even dying at 60? And, you know, there's so many people that you see on TV that you grew up always watching. And it's like, man, I got he's 84. Like, you know, like, how old is Morgan Freeman, you know, he's old.

Yeah, he was awesome. And he was always old since I remember. And it's just one of those things where it's like, do what you can mentally, physically to like get to that point, you know, like, I got a little close to that. I got a little CrossFit gym stuff in the garage now that functional fitness, you know, I believe in that helps. Like, the way I'm at now, you know, if I cut down probably like 20, 20 pounds, I feel better.

Like, I can I can move it this way. But I'm like, all right, let me let me cut down, you know, because I don't want to I don't want any knee issues, joint issues when I get older, I just want to be able to do my time in law enforcement. You know, if I do something else, you know, I'll have my whole body that I can, I can relax and enjoy life and not to worry about my kid having to push me around or be stuck in a hospital, you know.

Well, I think that's a big conversation that wasn't had as well. And sadly, this kind of fat shaming element has factored into this where rather than the message, which I truly believe most people want other people to be healthy, out of kindness and compassion. In fact, true fat shaming is just a horrible person. And that could be racism, prejudice, you know, whatever. That's just a turd, you know, spitting out hate. But the concern for the health of the nation comes from a place of kindness.

Firstly, you know, when when you are in good shape, you're like, dude, this is what the human body can do. I'm like, for me, I'm, I'm in average shape. I'm a good version, I guess, of me. But you watch gym masks and martial artists and you know, all these phenomenal people and like,

my God, the human body can do incredible things. And like you said, you're 50 year olds, you know, wheeling around in electric wheelchairs for no other reason than their weight. But that's the other side of the conversation is like, as a person, if you don't choose to take care of yourself, you're choosing to be a burden to your family, you're choosing to be a burden to your community and your country.

And then you know, now and then even sadly, you become a statistics and things like a pandemic, what should have only had a, you know, a much smaller death toll now wiped out loads of Americans and you know, that's the matter what anyone wants to say.

You know, 90 plus percent were chronically ill before it happened. There's always anomalies. I've had people that were young and fit drop dead from aneurysms and you know, all kinds of stuff. Was there any rhyme and reason to it? No, it happens. But most people, you know, it was their health and if and you wanted to prevent what happened to you and your family from happening again, and it sent you to a law enforcement.

I want to prevent the death and disease I've seen seen as a paramedic in the people I run on and in my peers. And that's why I started this podcast. And so I agree with you completely like, if you don't want to do it for yourself, do it for someone else do it for you, the people that you love.

Because otherwise, as you said it perfectly, I don't want my kids to be pushing me around in a wheelchair either, you know, and if it happens like a hit by a bus and it is what it is, but that was kind of out of my control. But the things that I can control, I don't want to be a burden to my family.

Yeah, I just saw. So I just saw something on the internet the other day and it was like the saying where people say, you know, I died for my kids and I was like, would we live for them, you know, like, that's kind of where I'm at with that. Like having having her really kind of change my perspective on certain things.

Like even when she was a baby, you know, I was working in cocoa and I'm still like I wouldn't care about making it home. I just care about, you know, wanting to chase bad guys and do all that and have fun. And then she started getting older and then I find myself I'm telling drug dealers and gang members that work. I'm like, listen, like I'm going home. Whatever you do. I got a my wife is expecting me to go to Disney Monday.

Like I got annual passes. I'm going home. If I got to kill you, I got to kill you. I'm going home, you know, and it definitely like having the family was it turned into that that why like what is your why and I wouldn't I wouldn't be here without that. So, absolutely.

Well, I want to go one more area and then we'll go to some closing questions. But this last year, you know, you had the whole defund movement, you had some legitimate errors by people in uniform that again took innocent family members from families, and I totally understand, you know, why those people were devastated.

But then that was tagged on to, you know, so much anti police rhetoric, obviously the, the actual concept of defunding you and I know it's like the funding the fire department, you've already got five stations closed down, you just want no one to be there to respond.

But with the solution of all this like coming from what you've been through, whether it's community policing, how how do we repair the damage that was the running really the the media shit storm that followed some of those instances the last couple years. I mean, just time. You see in history, kind of repeated so for, you know, Minneapolis is now throwing hundreds of millions back into law enforcement and so you just, I mean, the media really, they got what they wanted they got division.

I think once you realize that we're all just trying to work together that I hope, kind of get get us. And I don't know if there was how was in the past, it won't be better than in the future we can always make improvements you know, and that's kind of the point of learning new information. So, hopefully in the future, you know we can start mending those relationships, and I know like for me personally, my wife's mom's friend felt like on time family friend he's a teacher and every year.

I speak to his career development class in high school and I talked to kids and it's like hey, like, just because this traumatic incident happened to you doesn't mean that you have to be negative or you have to go have fuck cops, you don't have to do all that

and choose to not be a contributing member to society like you can have something bad happen to you, and you can find some way to make, make it help somebody else to help other people. And so I got to tell them like make, make your message message, you know, and

it's definitely. I don't, I don't know how many kids are out you know doing whatever but I know there's times where I'm the teacher he gets back to me, and he'll call me I'm actually, I'm doing it again, two weeks, and he'll tell me are some kids that it really

impacted them. And sometimes there's, there was one kid last time he didn't, he didn't believe me. I told him, you know, I have my mom and I'm like, you can Google it man, if you don't believe me if you want to sit here and you know act like a class clown but

I'm just trying to, like I feel like, at least my purpose, you know I wasn't just a rob put on the earth for something, and I feel like I helped somebody get through whatever they're going through, you know, have them get out of that hole because there was a time where, you know, like I said I blame myself for a little bit.

And, you know, when you're young, you shouldn't do that, you can't, I couldn't control that variable. I wouldn't have, like, okay if the garage door was closed what if he just jumped through a window, you know. So, it's definitely like between that and then it was, I tell them like, something I couldn't control was that something I could have controlled that I made a bad decision.

When I was 18, all my bullshit, both of those happened, both of them could have easily been a reason enough to say, you know, fuck cops, fuck whatever and just go about being a piece of shit. But I chose not to, you know, and I think the main reason why I choose not to is because I had, I wasn't living for me, I had other people dependent on me, like, I got them dependent on me, you know, so I can't, you can't be selfish with your life, you only got one.

Absolutely. Well, it reminds me as well of the message itself, you know, not being defined by your trauma. I just had Danny Boy O'Connor, who's one of the House of Pain members. I saw that and I was like, how am I supposed to follow that up? No pressure here. Yeah, exactly, because you literally are following him. He's going to be, today's actually.

And, you know, but it's so interesting because he said, you know, their own lyrics and obviously a lot of hip hop and I'm a huge hip hop fan, even to this day, even though I tend to gravitate still towards the 90s stuff. You know, it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If it's all fuck the police and the irony I point out all the time is like Ice Cube and Ice T, you know, fuck the police and cop killer. And now they're always on cops.

Exactly, making millions betraying cops. Whereas the, hey, by the way, youth of today, this is what I was thinking then. This is what I've actually learned. These are always great. You know, there's none of that, which is, which is terrible. But yeah, I mean, if the more we, we paint this division and as you and I know, those are the extremities again.

Those are the extremes. The ones who truly are in uniform and are bad people and the ones that truly are out there gang banging. Those slivers of society and the rest of us people, you know, normal people are in the middle. But the more we allow that message to be portrayed, the deeper that division becomes. So I think, you know, hearing your story is why I think it's so important.

It's just one of, you know, millions and millions of stories where people have tragedy and it didn't define them in your case. I mean, you could fucking drop right into the narrative of the last two years and be standing next to Al and his fucked up haircut talking about, you know, racism in the 2022. Yeah, there's, there's racism in big. It probably mentally traumatized people that have allowed themselves to buy into that. But we need to hear you.

We need to hear the next to the world, you know, showing that most people are incredible people and that you don't have to be defined by a trauma. And no matter your color, creed, whatever, you can be whatever you fucking want to be in this world. You forge your own path. And hopefully the mentors of the world will unite and raise these young men and women up and empower them and show them.

Look, you know, yeah, you were born here and you and I have seen these houses where you like how the hell are these kids ever going to get out. But then we have people like I had Steve O. Michelle, who was born in Timberscan. If anyone in the Orlando area knows where Timberscan is, it's it's I mean, almost apocalyptic. These poor people living in this tent, this little apartment complex.

He ended up getting a scholarship going to the University of Colorado. I think I got that right. It was in Colorado, whichever the college was. And then went back to Orange County and became a firefighter and worked in his first year protecting skin Timberscan and inspiring all the young kids. Look, this is what I did. So I love these stories. Yeah, definitely, man.

When I tell people in America, I mean, you can be whatever you want to be here. If you want to be successful, you can be successful. If you want to be oppressed, you can be oppressed. You know, it's all is your mindset. So if you want to sit there and blame, you know, other people, go ahead. But no one's going to know who's going to help you help yourself.

And like what would happen with my family, man, is definitely when I first got into law enforcement, the older guys, they knew about it and they saw me. They're like, dude, I know who you are. I'm like, what? Like all the older SWAT guys, they would. A friend of mine, he actually gave me a book is like a sniper training book. And it has like all these different incidents involving SWAT snipers. And there is a section of it of, you know, what happened in that book.

And I'm like, wow. And even even now, like the people I met along the way, just doing this, just being being here. I had a training one time and I met the instructor. He he says, hey, so we're in Orlando around this time. And I was like, on a break, I was like, hey, you remember this situation? He was like, I was on that call out and he was actually the sniper scout on the call out. He ended up leaving the sniper's post and he heard the shot go off.

And then they realized they shot the wrong person. And when I say everything happens for a reason, like what I expect, you know, 20 something plus years later, that this guy's teaching me in a cop class. You know, we we grab lunch, we talked, we talked about God and we still have his number. We keep in touch. He just retired the other day. So I had to call him on the day. Congrats. You know, you made it.

And it's definitely one of those things where like I it's anything that happened, you know, and everything happens for a reason. So if I can help somebody just by saying my story, you know, hopefully help somebody go, hey, just because I'm going through this doesn't mean I have to, you know, go down this path. I can get out and I can help change somebody. Absolutely.

Now, did you ever get to talk to the sniper himself with you being in law enforcement? I've I've asked I met some people, you know, I asked about them. I haven't been talking to him. I know at this point, that's probably going to be something in my next chapter of life is talking to him and let him know. Because I mean, I can only I can only imagine whatever he went through, you know, mentally back then.

You know, I was angry and at peace, you know, I forgive him. Everything happens for a reason. And I think he's retired last night. I heard I don't know where he's at, but I feel like that conversation is probably going to happen. Well, let's hope he listens to this. Yeah, that'd be amazing. Yeah. Well, Nick, that's been an amazing conversation. I want to just throw some closing questions at you before we kind of wrap up.

The first one I love to ask, is there a book or are there books that you love to recommend can be related to our discussion or completely unrelated? So right now, what I'm listening to is an audiobook is Joe DeSenta. And this latest one is about like parenting, like him and Jocko Willink, man, those those two, which I saw you had him on the podcast, I think, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. His book with the leadership. Extreme ownership.

Yeah. That one. Then the second one he did after that was I listened to and it kind of helped me. It helps me learn, like, learn how to deal with certain supervisors at work and like knowing because like right now, I mean, I'm an agent right now. I know eventually I'll be a supervisor and it's like kind of life skills to help you handle conflict. And there was one time where I had a sergeant that it was it was rough and I was there. I knew I needed to figure this out.

I had to deal with this. And those two, like their their mindsets really kind of helped me be a better person. You know, I had Joe on the show as well. Oh, really? Founder of Spartan. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That guy. That guy's crazy. Yeah. No, that's brilliant to hear. It's funny because I went to the extreme ownership or the echelon front muster late last year, I think it was.

And they did role playing of basically bad supervisors. And it was it was, you know, of course, it's easier said than done when you just, you know, acting it. But, you know, there were some really interesting twists of where you put it back on yourself where, you know, because, I mean, sadly, a lot of the bad leadership really revolves around ego.

So it's not kissing ass, but it was putting it in a way where, you know, you leave that supervisor feeling somewhat empowered, but you've kind of also turned them to the point where, you know, overcome whatever obstacle it was, whether you're asking for something or because, yeah. I mean, the reality is I talk about this a lot. Not only is that a real a real thing in our profession that, you know, creates a lot of undue stress in an already stressful career, but it's actually a result.

It results in a lot of mental health challenges, too. So it's an issue that needs to be resolved on a lot of layers. Half of this job is who you work for. Absolutely. All right. Well, the next question, what about a movie and or documentary? You talked about your your wife, you know, exposing you to a lot of them. She's big on any any Netflix serial killer documentary. I know movies and it takes us a lot of like watch anything new.

Like I had to. She doesn't like Star Wars. So it took me years to watch Star Wars by myself the last like three episodes. But I say probably my favorite ones that are Christian Bale Batman movies. I like those. Brilliant. All right. Well, next question, is there a person you'd recommend to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first responders, military and associated professions of the world?

I mean, the only name I'm thinking of is my boy, Doug. Yeah, Doug Monda. Yeah, I don't know. Has he been on the show? He has. We're actually going to do another one. But Doug Monda is the man behind Trauma Behind the Badge. And yeah, amazing, amazing human. He's been on once, but we're actually talking about doing another one. So, yeah. Yeah. So thank you to Doug for connecting us, by the way. Shout out to him.

All right. Well, then the last question before we make sure people know where to find you, if you want them to find you. What do you do to decompress? What do I do to decompress? I mean, you see it over here. I got a garden that we're doing now. I used to be hunting, kind of taking some time off from hunting. And that was just really it turned into a I like to run, you know, work out and garden and fish.

I've been trying to get back into fishing. My daughter thinks I don't know how to catch a fish. A while back, she she was like she asked my father-in-law, she's like, Papa, does daddy know how to fish? I've never seen him catch a fish. I was like, OK, I need to we need to start fishing again. And what kind of fishing do you like? We're talking about it before we start recording. Surf fishing. I like just chilling on the beach, you know, throw some bait out and relax and enjoy, enjoy the sun.

See, I thought I discovered some awesome, like extreme way of fishing where you're standing on a surfboard with a rod in your hand. But then I realized it's what we call beach casting in the UK. I think people do that when you shark fish, they'll go out on like a paddle board, throw that line out and then come back in. But yeah, not me. Beautiful. All right. Well, then if people do want to learn more about you, reach out to you, where are the best places?

I know, obviously, in law enforcement, you're not going to be all over everywhere. But what's the best avenue? I mean, email or social media? I mean, my Instagram's Nick 97 Colt. So that's as old and that's same as my email address. Nick 97 Colt at Hotmail. OK, beautiful. Well, Nick, I just want to say thank you. Like it's been such an amazing conversation when Doug first told me about you and your story. And not be like, oh, this would be a great scoop, like some cheesy journalist.

But just this is a conversation that people need to hear and to, you know, to go from from what happened to your family and obviously what really happened to your family was someone came into your life. It should never have been there. And then that created the other circumstance. But to have walked through now and you've got this beautiful family and two of what happened with your father experience. And now here you are, a loving dad, you know, of a beautiful little girl.

You know, it's been such an incredible conversation. So I just want to say thank you so much for telling your story today. Well, thanks. I appreciate you listening.