Jim Lydon - Episode 890

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And if you want to hear more about 511, who they stand for and who works with them, listen to episode 580 of Behind the Shield podcast with 511 regional director Will Ayers. Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show firefighter, dispatcher, fire chief, city manager and member of the all-American leadership team Jim Lydon.

As you can hear Jim has an incredibly storied career not only in the different ranks of the fire service but also overcoming an issue with his vision, his own powerful mental health story and of course he extrapolates many areas of leadership through his career and the work he does with all-American leadership. Now before we get to this incredible conversation as I say every week please just take a moment.

Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating. Every single five-star rating truly does elevate this podcast therefore making it easier for others to find and this is a free library of almost 900 episodes now. So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them. So with that being said I introduce to you Jim Lydon.

Enjoy. Well Jim I want to start by saying firstly thank you to Rick Rushell for connecting us. We had another great second conversation and obviously I had Rob Nielsen on as well from all-American leadership but secondly I want to welcome you to the Behind the Shield podcast today. Thank you great to be here. So where on planet earth are we finding you this afternoon? I am in my house in lovely downtown San Diego California. Beautiful so you're morning. Yes morning here.

All right well I would love to start the very beginning kind of your origin story so tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic what your parents did how many siblings. So I was born in northern California grew up in the city of San Rafael which is just a little bit north of the Golden Gate Bridge and I was the youngest of five children. We had a family that I'll say was sort of separated into two groups.

I had three older siblings that are 10 to 13 or so years older than me and then I had a brother that was four years older than me and we so he and I don't remember the other three really living in the house type of thing right. It was mostly what I have recollection of is my brother and myself and that type of thing.

My parents were I'll say very service oriented community based my father was a orthotics and prosthetics maker had his own business for many years so he was you know he was about helping people and giving you know giving help to people who were disabled or whatever. So I think I kind of got that service to others type of thing from him.

My mother was you know she was in sales at department store and then she went in the insurance industry then she became more of a stay at home mom when I was in my teens probably but she became very active in the community with senior citizens group and that type of thing leading tours and helping them and that they were big in the neighborhood car club you know they were always stepping up to take on positions on the board or those

types of things so very much about a service oriented type of a situation.

My childhood you know I grew up in a neighborhood we had a park large park directly across the street from our front door and so you know we were in the park all day and we had lots of kids in the neighborhood we played football on the grass there and basketball and baseball whatever you know kind of a cool thing back then and you know this I guess the late 60s and early 70s was at the park there was actually staff there during the week in the summertime

that ran recreation programs you know ran games organized trips etc. so you know just something you don't see necessarily at the neighborhood park anymore today and so that was kind of the family dynamic and where I grew up and that type of thing.

Well firstly with the prosthetics sadly we've seen you know obviously a complete paradigm shift when it comes to amputees whether traumatic or congenital and the options are available to them now and the incredible you know just the ability the athleticism all these things that we're seeing from the adaptive community that sadly came out of you know the Afghan and Iraq wars.

Have you had any conversations or did you have any conversations with your father about the kind of metamorphosis of where we are now in the profession that he spent a whole lifetime doing?

Well my father passed away in about 96 I think it was so long before that but I can tell you I can remember sitting at the kitchen table you know this was probably was mid 70s ish something like that and I can remember my father sitting there with a hand that he was placing electrodes on his arm at the dinner table and trying to make that hand work you know to pick up a glass or to pick up the fork you know that kind of thing so you know

they were definitely engaged in that type of activity throughout that time. My oldest brother went into that business ran his own business for a number of years retired a few years ago you know so he's probably seen some more of that more adaptive type of stuff nowadays that we've seen.

Yeah it's amazing I mean you know again out of tragedy comes you know some beautiful things you know as a positive element of a negative thing which was war but you know seeing just the videos of the CrossFit athletes and you know the the Spartan races all the way through to you know just as you said the robotic limbs now that are able to do so much and even just you know other stuff you know the electric stimulation that helps people with Parkinson's

and you know some of the brain therapies that they're doing now it's when you and I were young we're not too far apart I think you know the special needs adaptive communities were kind of like oh you know well it's sad it is what it is and now I just posted today a bodybuilder with Down syndrome an amazing amazing man in Canada but then you know the the prosthesis it was just you know wooden arms and wooden legs back then and now you

know you're seeing these just uber athletes crushing it you know like one of them is on the show Mark Ormrod triple amputee after an IED and I think it was Afghanistan and he does jujitsu he's he's been in the Invictus Games I mean absolutely incredible so it is a beautiful thing to see that industry specifically makes such a huge difference in some of these men and women's lives yeah I mean it it it truly was and even back then I mean I can

remember you know the success story shall we say you know that I would hear about from my father you know talking about people that he had worked with or that type of thing well you mentioned as well about the people work in the parks and that reminds me of conversations I've had on the show and and I think it was people that were from overseas that was kind of their observation and it was profound when I grew up it kind of was you know the the

dynamic that you're talking about maybe you know not someone in a park specifically but we had these community leisure centers and they were you know the cost was minimal to go but there was internal you know indoor football badminton volleyball all the sports inside there was the football pitches outside there was a pool there was a weight room and you didn't have to have very much money at all to access that and I'm sure they probably

had programs even if you were struggling that would allow you to but when you look at modern all of recreation here in America you know you want to play on a court or a pitch you have to pay you know there's a large fee and you got to get a whole bunch of people together which has become a barrier to entry our fields are gorgeous but a lot of people just can't afford to use it right yeah no it was like I said it was great right because it was every

summer and you know that generally speaking the the people that were working there were older teenagers that you know were working for the recreation department and you know they allowed the kids to come together and you know be engaged and have that sort of community sense and things like that that you just don't see today unless you're unless you're paying to go to the gymnastics facility or the you know wherever yeah exactly now

what about sports and athletics what were you doing when you were in school age school age you know I played youth football American football I wasn't in chasing that little round ball yet that wasn't something that was a big deal here then and a little bit of basketball baseball that type of stuff pretty much through until I went to high school you know high school I had a different focus and so it was basically those those components were were

what I played routinely as you know up till what 13 14 years old something like that now I know you went to the fire service early but prior to that was that what you were dreaming of becoming or was there something else in your mind I would say that I mean I didn't obviously I didn't have you know like father wasn't a firefighter you know that type of thing I wasn't I wasn't really exposed to that lifestyle at home I had a couple of friends

that whose fathers were firefighters locally in town I saw them never really I'll say dreamed about it but but I talked about the park right and it was it was one of the part-time summertime gardeners landscape maintenance people that worked in the park his father was the fire marshal for the local fire department and he's the one he he was an as a teenager was an explorer scout as well in the fire department he's the one that sort of like introduced

that concept to me and then I asked around a little bit more you know some of these fathers of some of my friends and things like that kind of got introduced to it that way when I have conversations about diversity on here in the fire service it just over and over again the the answer seems to be mentorship and I there's an amazing program here between Marion County you know Calo Calo was the ones that started it friend of mine named Chris

Hickman and they removed all the barrier to entry because absolutely department especially historically you know were whether it was deliberate or just by geography were excluding a lot of you know candidates some of which were it was a gender or a race for example but what they've done is they've gone out into these communities and they've put their their mentorship programs at a central fire station so all these kids have to do is is

get there there's free training the scholarships to fire academies is there's definitely departments on the other end screaming for for good candidates and so I'm absolutely you know it's a huge huge element I think is the mentorship part whether you're in uniform whether you're mentoring as we said earlier as a recreational you know sports coach whatever it is to being part of the solution rather than pointing at you know fire administration or government

to fix your problems for you what was your experience as a young boy then in the mentorship program that you found yourself in?

So to kind of circle just to put in a perspective on age I joined that program when I was 14 and so you know basically 14 years old went through some training that they required initially you know it was all internal stuff you know basically how to be safe but eventually just ended up at the firehouse and so I got to see I think from a variety of perspectives because I hung around with different crews in different stations and things like that

so I got to see all kinds of different approaches to leadership within the small unit I got to see a lot of attitude towards the fire service whether it was good or bad but ultimately I had a few people who I'll say took me under their wing and taught me from their perspective what was important in the fire service things like you know control what you can control you know don't worry about what they're doing uptown you know we can only control what we're

doing here in the fire station you know that type of thing. I learned a lot about teamwork at that point and you know camaraderie all of those elements that I think are you know key components to the profession. At the same time I was exposed to poor leadership or you know definitely saw definitely saw the difference between those that were engaged and those that were occupying a seat for lack of a better term. Interesting so how long did you remain in that program?

So I was very active in that program for two years and by active I mean that as soon as summer hit because I had you know I had this one particular fire captain who took me under his wing I rode along 24 hours a day every day that that ship was on duty while I wasn't in school and then when I was in school I was there pretty much every Saturday at the fire station for 24 hour shift with whichever crew was on duty and so you know I got to

do a lot of stuff I mean they allowed me to do things as a fire explorer that they probably shouldn't have right but certainly wouldn't do it today I don't think but things were definitely different.

I mean I was you know actively on the fire line at vegetation fire you know if it was an exterior operation at a structure fire we were allowed to participate in the operation type of thing you know we our only limitation was you can't go inside a burning building so definitely got a lot of experience and exposure to things at the same time you know this is something I didn't realize at the time obviously and I've realized that now

looking back is that's when trauma started you know because and I've spoken recently about this to another group I think we need to be more cognizant when we're mentoring or having these young teenagers coming into our profession as to what we expose them to so you know I went on every call with them right and went inside with them and you know saw the suicide attempt or successful suicide or the burn victim at a fire you know things

like that that maybe most 14 to 16 year olds aren't ready to process and we probably need to address that when we're looking at these programs.

Yeah no I agree completely I just had a guest on Bruce Shooter and he was interesting there was volunteer fire service where he grew up but there was also volunteer rescue so they were separate so he was actually doing the EMS so arguably probably running on more of the macabre than the fireside but when you hear the world of neuroscience now talking about you know when your brain matures especially in the cannabis conversation seems to come

up for some reason if my memory serves me right it's mid-20s when our brain has finally evolved so then you think that you're exposing a 14 year old 15 year old to the levels of trauma that we see in our career I agree 100 percent how can they be part of the scene but in more of a support role so we're shielding them because when I was a young firefighter we had a horrendous call where two people were killed one was a man in the front and

then a three-year-old in the back was decapitated and my captain and engineer actually ordered the two firefighters myself and my partner to stay at the station we got called back to actually you know extricate the body for the coroner and his thing was you know you're going to see enough stuff in your life you don't need to add this to the to the call and I thought that was probably some of the best leadership I've ever seen my entire career

but it was simply that like it doesn't take four people to remove this child they were you know literally a handful of months from retiring themselves so that was a calculated decision but this is you know these are two two men that were in their 20s by this point not a 14 year old.

Okay so then kind of back to your your question you know how long did I do it I pretty much did that for two years and and then unbelievably at the age of 16 I was hired by the fire department in a position they called fire cadet that was the fancy term for we were technically dispatchers and we worked on the fire department work schedule so every other day you know for three three shifts and then we had a four day break and we had it we had a dispatcher

that worked Monday through Friday eight to five and then we came in at five o'clock at night on our shift schedule and if our shift day was on a Saturday Sunday or holiday we were there for 24 hours in the office and so I was a junior in high school I started you know February of my junior year in high school as a dispatcher we had a roll away bed that you know we pulled out of the bathroom and opened up in the in the office space and

flopped out on that we were allowed to bed down at nine o'clock at night the evening part you know five o'clock to eight o'clock you know we had some chores to do empty the trash around the office things like that maybe type up some forms or you know something some little administrative type of thing but basically answer the phone take the information we had a dispatch system that was all manual which wasn't computerized back then and we dispatched

resources to calls and processed it and all of that and I did that for until I moved out on the floor as a firefighter I worked in that position and you know again I a tremendous amount of responsibility for a 16 year old and you know sleep deprivation issues I know that's something you talk about we can talk about that at some point but you know that's when it started right you know I mean in addition to the Explorer Scout stuff you know but but

here I was you know at the time the department had seven stations and you know we probably had we probably ran three thousand calls a year back then something like that but not uncommon to get two or three emergency calls during the night you know where you wake up from a dead sleep to answer the phone ask questions take the information process that dispatch it all that type of thing stay awake while the crews are out until they get back

and then go back to sleep and then get up at you know seven six thirty seven o'clock in the morning and get ready and go to school. How did the seven station department not have full-time adult dispatches? It just you know just a situation I think in the early 80s that they could get away with.

Mm-hmm yeah and that's the exact term and we're still obviously fighting that to this day and with I just I'm constantly blown away how you know there's volunteer departments in affluent suburban areas you know in the northeast like I absolutely get it when you know when you're in the middle of nowhere and you'll get a handful of you know calls like you said a month a year whatever it is and yeah it's all hands then but yeah when

you've got that many people that you're protecting that are all taxpayers then it is just you know getting away with it until we finally kind of step up and go enough is enough.

Right it I mean I could still remember my first my first solo night my first night you know in in February of 81 that I work you know kind of a routine medically call stuff and then sometime in the early morning hours a significant structure fire and you know I was awake pretty much all night had a couple other calls through that process and I remember getting off in the morning thinking I'm going to school now I can't how's this gonna work

right but it it worked out I'm very happy that I did it you know that I had the opportunity because it's set you know it just continued the path to where I where I went.

That must have been brutal though because I went to university here in America and I had to do it the moment I got off shift so you know as an older student as well sitting in the back of a the back of UF and you know in the classrooms after God what was it basically almost a hundred mile drive from work to then listen to to dry dry you know presentations in the university and then try and you know not be so cross-eyed that I could complete

the coursework and so I don't know how you did it at that age that's that's mind-blowing you know most these teenagers can't function with eight hours sleep because they're growing so much.

Right but it you know it's that was that was junior year when I was still I'll say you know pretty much taking a full load in high school right I had six classes but I had focused educationally you know from freshman year I didn't take any electives you know no shop none of that kind of stuff I was hardcore you know courses and so by the time I finished my junior year I had met all of the graduation requirements except for you know there was

like one class they required me to take for a semester in my senior year and then I just needed to pick up some units and and part of that I was able to get work experience credit you know for the job and so in my senior year I was able to taper back right I had I had four classes and three of them were in my first semester and three of them were electives auto shop architectural drafting and I was a teacher's aide right so the only

class I had was this government class that I took the first semester but it allowed me to to shift my schedule so I didn't go to school I think I started my first class was like close to 10 in the morning so I actually had you know I could get off work I could go have breakfast I could do things and then I went to school and then I got out in the early afternoon so it was my senior year was pretty easy. Now did you transition to another department as a dispatcher?

So many years later I worked a side job as I got hired as a dispatcher with the sheriff's office in a regional communication center type of atmosphere and I was still working as a dispatcher for the fire department I applied for that job as a full-time job you know I was gonna go do that because money you know was gonna pay better and when I went there they were looking they were hiring a full-time position but they also had just

gotten approved for a part-time halftime position and so they asked me about that and I said well I'm not interested in that unless we can figure out how to do it around my fire department work schedule and I keep both positions and so that's what I did and so I I worked there for I actually worked there for two years part-time.

The reason I ask I think the dispatchers are the kind of unsung heroes of the first responders and obviously there's that there's this tension between us sometimes you know we're all tired and overworked and underpaid as are they but I don't think we really realize the conditions that they work in firstly you know if it's a 12-hour shift they may arrive in darkness and leave in darkness you know they're in a dark room themselves staring at screens

all day but the other thing is and I've had dispatchers on here you know some of my friends and another one was Beth Bauer Sox who was the dispatcher for the Paradise Fire and she lived in Paradise so she heard her own community burning to the ground and she had the people calling you know begging for help and then the line would go dead and what I realized is that for us we get banged out on a structure fire then we pull hose and we throw ladders

and we crawl and you know carry equipment we go to a vehicle you know a wreck and now we're carrying extrication equipment but there's this physical offload with that stress just as you know adrenaline was made for fight the bear run etc but our dispatchers get exposed to this stress and just sit there so there's no offload did you have any kind of perspective on that side of it comparing the fire service that you were also in well I can I can I won't

talk about myself personally in this regard but when I got hired at the sheriff's office the same day I got hired this other dispatcher got hired she would eventually become my wife and you know she worked there she worked in that profession for many years and she she left that she left that job in 2001 I think it was about August because it was right before 9-11 basically stress-induced you know we had some you know there was some significant

events that occurred in the home front right behaviors that like indicated stress issues etc and and a lot of it was those unpacked issues right the you know taking the phone call for whatever traumatic event and no closure you know it wasn't until recently right that we we even thought to include the dispatchers in our peer counseling or our you know post incident debrief or you know that type of thing they were sort of a neglected aspect

of of the situation and so so I saw it with her and I'll you know we've been married for quite a few years and you know some of the stuff we just haven't shared with each other right myself her her as well and I don't know maybe a year ago there's a documentary movie out PTSD 9-1-1 and we went to a viewing of that here locally and they had they had the guy from Anaheim was there you know a couple other folks that were in the in the

video and I convinced her to go with me and she wasn't you know she wasn't sure that even even when we sat down in there to watch the video she said to me I make it up and leave you know and and after after watching the video we came home and and that was probably the first time in many many years that we sat on the couch with each other and shared a few things right sort of talked about some of those things that were still lingering

or that we never you know event that we dealt with that we never told the other about or you know that type of thing. Beautiful yeah Matty Furenzo was the Anaheim guy friend of mine but I forget the name of the guy who made the film because he did reach out.

Yes he reached out a long time ago but then we I hadn't heard from him since but yeah it seems like that has become a great film and I'll if I speak to Matty I'll let them know because that's the whole point of those kind of projects is you know funny some people kind of focus on fundraising when it comes to mental health and I think they're missing the point you know of course if you're funding you know getting first responders to resources

of course as a financial element but for most of us it's it's the conversation it's opening that door it's smashing the the facade of the weakness and all the things that you know a lot of us were raised with that that two-dimensional you know masculinity that's you know I think really you should that's that's what toxic masculinity should really be the facade that a lot of us were were raised on that we're this kind of RoboCop type individual rather

than you know this yin and yang this kind compassionate person who went into a profession where at times we do have to be tough but then we have to give ourselves that same compassion after some of these calls.

Yeah and and I you know probably will come up it might come up later but but before we lose it because you mentioned the the dispatcher in paradise and the local you know that kind of thing and I experienced that myself the you know there were incidents that occurred when I was a teenager you know working in the dispatch center car crash you know whatever the crews would come back and I'd gather up some information and pretty soon it's like

oh I I know that kid that you know just got killed in that accident right and you know so there was some of that when I when I went out on the road as a firefighter you know it was that everybody talks about you know kind of the hometown boy makes good right got a job got a job in the hometown you know etc not so much because because it didn't take long for me to realize as I started running calls because I worked even though we had

seven stations I worked most of my career at the headquarters station which was the neighborhood I grew up in and so you know going on calls all of a sudden it's either the parents of my friends from school it's my my parents friends in some cases some relatives you know I we had this feature was sort of unique but but probably a little bit disturbing when you know when I was a dispatcher it was before this 911 system even existed right

it didn't come into play till about the mid 80s for us but we had a switch in the dispatch office and and we could turn that switch on and turn the overhead speakers on in the station and the crews in the station could actually listen to the phone call that I was taking right so they could hear the address the nature of the call if it was in their district they could start moving long before I finished asking all the questions well with that you

know I my parents lived in town my father had a number of medical emergencies that occurred and I can remember being in the station on times you know when I was working as a firefighter and you hear the speakers come on and all of a sudden they say oh I recognize that voice that's my mom you know and and I was off on a medical thing in the 90s 96 when my father passed away but the crew that I would have been working with that day ran that cardiac

arrest so you know it's those those things is a is definitely a you know a trauma that needs to be addressed when you have a local person and you know I had a young firefighter that came on to the department who I grew up with his brother but when he came on he was in that situation I was in right the family's still in town lots of friends and when he came to my crew the first day that was one of the things I talked to him about was you

need to be prepared for this and you need to be understanding this and hey we've got things in place now that can help you navigate that.

It seems like that's most prominent with the volunteer fire departments because a lot of them are working in their town so not only are they running on their neighbors and their friends but also they live and work in the same place so they're reminded I mean if I go to Orlando man there's bodies everywhere in my mind you know all the street corners and dumpsters and you name it but you know when I come back home here in Ocala I've never

worked here I mean I take that back I was a medic student here so a bit of a bit of a reaper a bit of a black cloud so there are some even locally here from my time there but it's not the same as working you know year in year out in the same place that you live and you know just dreading that that whatever colored car wasn't your teenage daughter or son that just wrapped themselves around a you know a telegraph pole so it is something

that I think we need to acknowledge especially in the volunteer fire service where they don't get as much support and conversations like this. Right yeah it's definitely you know wasn't something I was thinking about you know at the time.

So you end up becoming you know full-time firefighter and ultimately you climb through the ranks to BC in that department if I'm understanding that right what as you progress through your career what was some of the career calls that you that you had were wearing that uniform?

Yeah so I you know on the floor firefighter you know I would say you know a number of large fires I went to were basically normal right but I did have a fire in you know it was in our first in district and I use a slide a picture I have of that building when I talked to people about being prepared for the unexpected you know fires had become so routine that you know say we're gonna go there we're gonna pull hose we're gonna put the fire out etc

right and in no way did I expect to pull up in front of this place that night and see a woman hanging out the window on an upper story and it's like oh you know and so that was the first time I you know ever you hear people talk about you know going on the scene and going directly into the rescue mode and everything else you know doesn't doesn't matter it unfortunately the station I worked at we had my my engine company in a medic ambulance

you know firefighter paramedic ambulance so when we pulled up you know it was the firefighter medics on the ambulance were able to you know quickly come up grab a ladder go get the ladder up you know and we had a successful rescue and and that type of thing but it was one of those you know career moments right not not everybody ever in their life as a firefighter gets to say they had a dramatic grab right and and and I you know I can remember looking

at this woman you know as I'm running around out there I was a captain at the time right I'm trying to put together a plan and you know she had superheated smoke rolling over the top of her head she was leaning against her thighs you know hanging out the window and and and I have to think you know she was wondering probably at what point do I go and you know we got the ladder up there successfully brought her down the ladder so you know that

was definitely a career mark I would say beautiful now what about the concept of leadership I know we're going to talk about that you know with with the company work with now but when you look at the the rungs of the firefighters ladder career-wise most of the progressions involve testing and within that testing that isn't necessarily actual leadership knowledge gained so what have been your observations as you've climbed all these ranks of the the

officer classes versus actual leadership knowledge and wisdom being imparted but I'll talk about the the the testing process right and for me I believe the most critical position in the fire services company officer in the fire station they have the fire chief you know has very little influence over what goes on day in and day out in those fire stations right it's the fire captains it's the it's the officers in there that that are the ones

that are dealing with the things that are going to alter the culture cause headaches for the administration whatever it is right so one of the things I talk to people about is and I say this you know everybody when we get into those testing processes what are they focused on they focus on this silly tactical exercise that's going to be given to them you know simulation etc they think I need to spend all this time practicing for that

I need to spend time sitting in the front seat of the fire engine and understanding this whole call management you know etc and don't get me wrong those things are important right we have to we have to make sure that that skill set is there but I tell people that are preparing for promotional exams at that level I said look around your community there's not a fire burning in your community at this point basically they've all gone out

we've we've put them out we have training and tactics and strategies etc to deal with that but you know where the fires are burning in your community they're burning in your firehouse they're burning in your crews and we're not preparing those company officers to address those things to put those fires out to deal with those things that need to be dealt with before they become a raging wildfire in the organization and I think that's

probably one of the biggest things that that we need to you know do a better job of now what about tools I mean obviously we've got all-american leadership we've got Eshel on front there's some great organizations excuse me organizations out there that are offering this kind of training but they're not really deeply embedded in the fire service nationally at least so what are you seeing as far as you know the give me some examples of good

fire departments that you've witnessed and then conversely you know what would be the opposite of that well I I think the good organizations are ones where the senior leadership is engaged has their hands on the wheel and and it's really you know steering the bus and making sure that we've got the right people on the bus that type of thing maybe a little bit of a controversial statement here that I'll make you know one of the things and I'm sort

of I'll say semi-guilty because I work for an organization now and I bring my fire service bias I'll say to things to some extent but one of the things that for me I made the decision not to go to the National Fire Academy I chose to go get my master's degree at a university instead and and the reason I did that was at the time I had reached this this conclusion or this perspective that there was a lot of inbreeding taking place and and so that was

that was like this moment for me where I like okay I need to go out and and get a different exposure and and I think I think we need to encourage that and and and what sparked it for me was I was I was taking a baton cheese promotional exam and one of the exercises was I had to write a paper on implementation of a new training program or something like that and I and I wrote this paper and then I watched the process where it got evaluated

and who sits on the panel for a promotional exam for battalion chief a bunch of fire chiefs and I remember as they reviewed my paper sitting there thinking okay well they'll understand the content but where they get their education to be able to actually really evaluate my writing ability and my skills in that regard you know that type of thing and and that was sort of that moment where it's like oh I think there's something here that I need to go out

and explore deeper in a different arena so but back to your question I think the organizations where I've seen you know success is is really where where the the senior leadership is is modeling behaviors that are appropriate that are driving the organization the the rest of the organization is sort of seeing that following that and guiding that and I'm a big proponent of the certain leadership aspect you know I worked in that first organization

I worked in I'll say was very toxic the leader the senior leadership he was the fire chief for 30 something years and you know a bully you know autocratic dictatorship you know type of stuff I do never never you know there was no inspiration there was no inspiration to aspire to that level right I can remember that saying that's what it's about why would I do that right and it you know that was just his style now having said that he was also

a person and I was a beneficiary beneficiary of it he was also a person that you know if you came forward and brought your issue to him he'd give you the shirt off his back to help you get things squared away or you know take care of yourself or you know whatever but you might have to pay the price at some point you know type of thing it's interesting what you were saying about that kind of inbreeding when it came to you know I won't even pick

on that one organization just the fire service in general and this is one of the things that was my aha moment for the podcast and people say oh you got a very diverse guest list I'm like yes because I see these people as people not you know you need to be wearing a fire uniform to come on the podcast you know humans are humans and leaders are leaders and athletes are athletes and they're all you know walks of life so I wanted to find the experts in

the world some of which are firefighters you know and you know they're experts in their own life story too so that's that in itself is valuable but if I'm gonna talk about leadership then I also want to talk to Jocko Willink and Rick Rochelle and you know all these other great leaders I've had on the show if I want to talk about firefighter fitness then I want to talk to also you know Jim Wendler and Chris Henshaw and all these other incredible coaches

that are out there and when you look at the American Fire Service of which within as you said there are some phenomenal departments some phenomenal leaders but nationally there's overall there's an opposition to any sort of fitness standard we haven't adjusted work week since we were literally pulling steamers from horses so you know we there's a lot of chess beating admins and unions about how great we are but if you were from another

profession and you came with a fresh set of eyes and even economically the bleeding of money because of the way we work our people you would be like all right we need to start from scratch what the hell are you people doing but like you said there is that inbreeding element where if we actually admit that we aren't doing as well as we are then we need to put work in and we need to have some humility so this is what I think is refreshing when

I talk to either people like yourself or Roger Shai there are both first responders and in these other organizations or simply people in the military and industries outside the first responder professions is they can look objectively and go here's where you're failing here's where you're getting it wrong and we need to hear that because you don't grow if you think that you're doing everything right you don't grow as a nation if you keep saying

America is the greatest country on earth because it's not and it's not a competition either you know what I mean there are countries that are doing certain things so much better than us and we are doing certain things so much better than anyone else so the answer is having humility finding the real experts of the world and knowledge sharing so that we can all you know as they say the rising tide lifts all ships that's what we need to do but if we

allow ego and arrogance to get in the way of change we'll continue burying first responders we'll continue having a hiring crisis and you know ultimately you know we won't have an American fire service anymore yeah you know and I've heard some of your your previous podcasts and we can talk about sleep deprivation some of that kind of stuff because I thought it was bad when I was on the on the floor it was even worse I think when I was a fire

chief but the you know my generation in the fire service is responsible for some of the dynamics of today and and I was I was the president of the labor group at one point in my career right and and I was involved in the negotiations of some of this stuff but when I first started we didn't have overtime overtime didn't occur it was unheard of and and the reason was we had extra staff you know in my department we had three bodies

per ship that were there to cover for the days that people took off on vacation or called in sick or you know whatever so it was sort of unheard of to get an overtime you know if I had two maybe three overtime shifts in an entire year in the first probably decade of my career I was doing great it but at the same time that caused me to have a second job you know because I couldn't survive on you know what I was making as a firefighter

but but what happened is we we became greedy at some point and I can remember I can remember a person in my department coming to me one day and said hey we should get rid of one of those people on each ship and and I said yeah but the problem is if we do that because we had three and we allowed three people off on vacation at time right it made sense and and I said if we do that then that means I guarantee you that means on Christmas Day

there's going to be three people on vacation there's only two people on that shift somebody's going to have to work Christmas Day that was planning to be off that day and through you know other issues with budget cutting etc you know we eventually negotiated those extra bodies away and started working overtime and and then and then and it wasn't bad at the beginning because everybody you know it was sort of new and novel everybody was volunteering

to work but then as more demand and more demand and eventually then you got to like okay now we're into all this mandatory over time and that type of thing so you know when I when I talk to firefighters now that are you know coming on the job or they talk about it or even in some of my leadership stuff you know it'll come up right and I'll raise my hand and say okay let me let me jump on the sword here and say hey I have some responsibility

for what you're doing with today because I was part of the generation that negotiated away those extra staff and and things that would have curbed some of that.

It's it's such a nuanced conversation it's not complicated because I hate that people use that term to then you know get out of putting any work to fix it oh it's complicated however I think what's made it such a hard thing to get everyone in the room talking about the same thing is because we're all guilty and I've talked about this recently you know I spent my whole career saying yeah I work one day on two days off it was only

recently that I had the epiphany that we make we work three days on one day off you know three eight hour days crammed together that second that that third day bleeds into day two so it's only day three that you actually get off so it's not ten days a month it's thirty days a month so that's me you know that's my fault you know and then the last place I worked they I've got a friend of mine who's a phenomenal human being he's from another

country he's a reservist here in the US as well just a great human being and he gets asked hey you know when are you gonna do more military service so I can get your overtime you know what I mean that's that's culturally so that's how that one department which you know is my least favorite that I've ever worked in obviously you know that's their mentality there it's all about the money so they don't want to hear about you know 24 72 they don't

want to hear about fitness standards they just want to figure out how they can get more money and so culturally that needs to be completely rebooted but then you go up to you know obviously admin and now you're asking a leader to be a leader and actually have the courage to address their city their council and then you have the cities and council who we work under who have no idea what we do and so shame on them for not learning what it actually

is like being a firefighter a police officer a dispatcher in their own city so it's all the way through so you know with you you know telling us about your impact there the more of us to put our hands up and go yeah I'm part of the solution I mean I'm part of the problem too that's when we can finally have this this complete conversation put all the pieces in line and then you know the from us all the way through the city council we're

like oh so it's more expensive the way we're working now because you know we've got medical retirements and overtime and we keep losing people that we train and put through medic school and they walk out the back door you know and then now everyone's on the same page and the firefighters you know understand that yes the overtime is going to go away but overtime you know working somewhere else is okay because you understand sleep now I'll go hang drywall

for eight hours but I'll go home to my children and I'll sleep in my own bed but it's until we all kind of you know link arms and acknowledge our part of the problem and then demand the solution that that's when we're going to move forward and that's where I challenge the leaders of the American Fire Service whether you're you know a brand new pro be or whether you're the fire chief we need to have this conversation to move it forward and I think you know your

experience with all American leadership you know it was definitely a piece of that puzzle as we refined you know what true courageous leadership actually is.

Yeah I you know again part of the problem not maybe part of the solution right you know I was you know most a lot of agencies in California worked 48 96 now and it's insane and I could I could tell you that that I was I was you know one of the champions for that in my organization when we when we went to it you know and I could make all the arguments as to why it was beneficial and as as that particular organization has probably tripled the call volume and doubled

the call volume since since we went to that work schedule I can only imagine the impact that's having.

Yeah what is again is education the the genesis the nucleus of this podcast really came from Dr. Kurt Parsley me listening to him on barbell shrug talking about him discovering the sleep deprivation impact on the seals he was a seal went to med school came back as the seals physician took him about a year to figure out what was going on and then was able to change you know some of the night training used a supplement to get them off ambient

like they were all on ambient their blood work was in the toilet and then turned it around so again is educating people on sleep deprivation because sleep deprivation is a huge amplifier for mental ill health addiction suicide anxiety depression see deprivation is a huge amplifier for cancer and strokes and heart disease and weight gain and you know vulnerability to for example COVID-19 like it's everything but until you have that

knowledge you're just going to push kind of blindly against it because you don't understand what it is once you're educated on just how detrimental shift work is that it is actually a known carcinogen then you're going to focus on advocating for your work week and your health and your time with your family rather than chasing overtime because you've kind of been melded into that being the the holy grail you know the dollar bill.

Yeah I think that's you know what we got to when I was you know before I became a fire fighter what we got to was you know it was cyclical right it was this it was a vicious cycle of just what you said you know I need I need time with my family over my four-day break and the only way I can prevent getting mandatory to work overtime one of those days is if I take a day off the day before because then I'm on leave and I'm not eligible for

mandatory right so I'm trying to achieve my family time and in order to do that I'm taking a day off that's likely going to force somebody else to have to work you know against their choice maybe to cover that day you know so it is a vicious cycle. Absolutely well I know you ended up becoming a city manager as well so I mean you've literally been in all all the seats now so were there any kind of aha moments or realizations when you shifted from chief to that role?

Well you know even when I went to the fire chief's position right I mean just the I had a fire chief once that you know was introducing promotions for something and you know he made the comment that you know there's no instructions on the back of the badge to tell you how to do the job right and in many cases you just you're just unprepared for the job when you get that new badge and you sit in that seat and I think that was sort of the same thing you know when I became the fire chief right.

I thought I kind of had a pretty good handle on things and you know but you know you get into that next role and all of a sudden stuff starts dumping in your lap and you go oh where did that come from?

And so I think when I moved to the city manager's office it just was a you know at a higher level of that right because I was no longer just dealing with the fire department and the role of the fire department within the municipality and you know I obviously had some interaction but you know I was now you know dealing with the finance department and HR and you know all these things at a much higher level and there's always going to what

I've found is there's always going to be this surprise thing that occurs sometime in the early part of your tenure in a new role that you're just not expecting it and you have to figure out how to navigate that right and so I talk about this I talk about my circle and you know my circle I explained when I was that young teenage kid and the early firefighter my circle was huge right the people that I interacted with and talked with you know that

I could you know get support from etc. it was huge but then I found as I started to move up into various leadership roles leadership of the union right even there it's like okay I needed to tighten that circle because I couldn't deal with all of everybody right and when I became a captain and you know battalion chief well when you become the fire chief your circle is pretty small because there's pretty much nobody in the organization you

can talk to you know and have you know you can talk to them but nobody within the organization that you can go to for good counsel on like how to deal with things right so you got to have those relationships outside of you your department to help you and so I and the same thing when I was a city manager and I think what I encourage people is developing that circle because you need to be able to pick up the phone and call a friend and say hey

I just got dealt this card I've never dealt with something like this help me help me walk through this right give me some good guidance and things like that and so I exercised that when I became the fire chief and I'll just tell a quick story you know my third week on the job I get a phone call at two in the morning on a Saturday night Sunday morning from the on-duty chief officer to inform me we had some nuisance fires the last couple

weekends and he says hey we we had those couple fires tonight the police department made an arrest you know they they caught the guy guess what it's one of the volunteer firefighters in the organization all right I'm on my way you know how do I navigate this right fortunately I had a fire chief that I worked for who had had a pretty significant experience with that type of situation and you know that was my first phone call in the morning hey how do

I navigate this you know that type of thing so when I became when I went into the city manager's office it was the same thing you know I I wasn't there very long and got this thing dropped in my lap and like oh and it was one of those hot potatoes and so how am I going to navigate this well it's you go to that circle that you've developed and you get some good counsel and some guidance on how to how to move through things beautiful

I see you wearing the behind the shield shirt by the way I had I had to I had to do it for you thank you yeah yeah there I love them absolutely love them they're so comfortable but uh you know self-care and sabotage that really resonates with me at the moment I just had like two and a half weeks of no booze and then had a drink the last couple of days so living it currently so going back to your journey before we progress into how you how

you found all-american leadership you talk about you know some issues with vision and some of the struggles that you had so kind of walk me through you know where where your struggles were where the lowest place was that you found yourself progressing through your career um well you know trauma was a big thing you know kind of as I alluded to earlier right probably stuff I didn't recognize at the time and and certainly stuff that has

come forward since then you know even that teenage exposure stuff that I that I experienced but I had a couple of incidents early on in my career I had a next-door neighbor who was a captain in the department that I had worked for for a while you know we were when I say next-door neighbor either you know half a block down in the condo complex and and uh you know one night I went and I was over there in the afternoon and called me up that evening

hey I'm not feeling good went over talked to him called the medics and talked to them you know oh hypochondriac you know whatever indigestion ate something bad uh but you know why don't you give him a ride to the hospital and you can get checked out you know so load him up take him to the emergency room we're not in the emergency room five minutes he goes into cardiac arrest um you know fortunately it didn't happen when we were in the car on

the highway you know type of thing um and and so that was a pretty dramatic event um but what was the challenge was the the way the in my opinion um the way that the leadership of the organization dealt with it and dealt with me and and didn't you know I didn't get the I didn't get the the support I felt that probably I should have I had a lot of uh I had some survivor's guilt uh because that individual had worked a trade for me the day

before um and been on fire you know that type of thing so yeah and he survived you know that's he was resuscitated he survived he would he would go on to be the best man in my wedding um you know but but uh you know just the that aspect um and a couple years later I had a pediatric pediatric drowning um and at the time my daughter was pretty much the same age right so as you've heard as I've heard other people talk about right

you know you look down you don't see you don't see that kid you see your kid and uh you know and so went through that and she did not she did not survive and but it was a it was a very dramatic event in the community um you know uh the the you know could we were probably the pretty much the farthest from the hospital that you could have been type of a situation right so the the transport through town with a police escort and you know all that type

of stuff I mean it was a pretty dramatic um and I remember coming back to the firehouse walking in and a senior officer you know was sitting there in front of a group of people like you know you guys you guys need to talk to somebody you need you know you need some help or you know that kind of thing and we all spun around and walked out right um and that night at the dinner table we sat in silence and eating dinner and finally one of the guys

on the crew spoke up and said hey something's wrong and and so we actually I remembered an article that had been in the paper about some guy in a neighboring community that was a psychologist a psychiatrist or whatever that was doing some of this post-traumatic stress stuff or whatever I went and dug through the recycling bin found the article we made a phone call or two um and we ended up having a pretty significant debriefing a couple days

later but again it was that organizational failure right it wasn't the organization didn't make that happen the guys that were impacted had to make that happen um and so you know so that that was kind of my introduction to trauma and and some of that type of stuff I had known a little bit about Jeffrey Mitchell's work earlier you know but never really paid much attention to it uh we had a we had a counselor in our organization it was a captain

in our department he dabbled a little bit here and there trying to to make some things happen but but eventually we led to um you know a major breakthrough with having an organizational structure with the peer support and all that kind of stuff that that occurred sort of as a result of that um you know had some other you know pretty significant dramatic events where again the organization just didn't didn't support back and so the community didn't back

back it um and it really it really led me to be a rebel um you know that that last one was was related to trauma you know physical trauma of a vehicle accident that it basically ended up driving our trauma system creation in the county um and uh you know again I was working overtime as the dispatcher that night I wasn't even in the field but I was the one that was making phone calls and trying to solve these problems and you know made a phone

call to a hospital and said hey we got this going on and somebody said hey don't bring them here I said well they're too late they're already there they're pulling in your door you know and I mean it was there was a big day in the newspapers and you know it was there but but we were hung out to drive right um no no support you know that type of thing and so I became a rebel you know just sort of did what I wanted to do and and and worked

through that um but but it was you know those types of traumas that I think impacted me that also made me an advocate to get better systems in place in the other organizations I worked in and things like that um yeah the eyesight thing excuse me um you know I had this like floater in my eye one day and no big deal I didn't think and I went and they said hey you got some abnormal blood vessels growing on your retina they did laser surgery

back in the late 80s cauterized around in my eyes and that kind of thing all right all good then in the early 90s uh I had a blood vessel rupture in my right eye then it went totally dark and I was off the job for three months pondering what am I going to do with my life you know at the time I had probably three-year-old twins at home you know what's this going to be like you know that type of thing um had a surgical procedure they cleaned

all that out restored the vision I went back to work everything was great uh 96 when I talked about my father passing um uh I had had a retinal detachment in that eye and we would go for probably a year or so uh significant surgeries to try to restore that um that vision I was in medic school at the time because I decided to the department was sort of supporting me to go to medic school and uh I thought well I better finish medic school because

I'm probably going to be working like in an er or something you know and and I need that skill set but I kind of fought and proved to the department that well I don't have to drive a vehicle that requires anything special California you know you can drive a vehicle with one eye etc and so I fought and they let me stay on and I worked the rest of my career with a fake eye basically um and vision at one eye and so you know there was that

traumatic part of you know I thought my career was over um but then I pushed through and said I can prove that I can do this job and I learned how to start IVs with one eye you know all that stuff uh and I was very successful.

Going back to firstly the the injury and also you know some of the calls the number of people that I know that even if they felt like they were in a good department after you get hurt um you know you find yourself on your own and the phone's not ringing anymore and that organizational that that separation from tribe in itself can be crushing to people and I think there's almost a parallel and I haven't experienced this because I never rose through

the ranks but I would imagine you know you're on a crew you're a captain or lieutenant um and then one day you're a bc and now you're in the office on the other side and there's got to also be an element of that where you don't feel like you have that same tribe anymore there's there's definitely the them and us you know that takes place um you know I was fortunate as a battalion chief that you know I still lived in the fire station and you

know ate with the crew and you know that kind of stuff um but but it's you know you're you are different but I I tell people who have who are promoting to that position just what you described and I said here's the here's the deal with you know becoming a battalion chief now you're the captain on a fire engine you got three or four people on the engine with you you go on a dramatic event whether it's you know the best fire that you went

to and you're all high-fiving afterwards or whatever you know versus that traumatic call um the good news is you all get to get back on the fire engine and talk about it and start that process right when you're the battalion chief you get in the car by yourself and you drive away and you talk to yourself and and so it is very different and then with the organizational betrayal in some of the cases that you had further back in your career I

think that's another under acknowledged part of the mental health conversation and I know you know so many great firefighters some that work in this last department I worked that their biggest trauma is simply the work environment they work for like for me um I've talked about this a few times the last place I worked I got hired with a guy who ended up um succumbing to an overdose accidental overdose and this particular crew when we went to the department

to the to the funeral and I volunteered were the rest of the people that were still there were more concerned that they had to run extra calls while we were gone at this funeral than the fact that they lost a brother in in uniform and that was by far one of my biggest traumas of all the shit I've seen of all the stuff that happened with you when I was young being part of supposedly part of a tribe you know joining a community that's supposed to be

selfless and service oriented and you realize that selfishness that cancer is in there that was absolutely jarring to me so whether it's someone who's you know I've had people on here that got her at work in their department you know terminated them after a year or whatever it was when when that tribe that you've taken a vow to be a part of turns their back on you whatever that looks like that is absolutely again crushing to some people and I think

sadly to some of them it was the final straw that you know made them complete suicide or you know take that extra medication by accident then and now they're no longer with us.

Yeah it's you know there's a lot out there now about you know organizational betrayal and moral trauma and things like that and I think it's pretty significant and it when you get to the fire chiefs level you know people don't understand it happens at that level too you know because you're doing what you believe are the right things for the right reasons and you know protecting the community and your organization and that type of thing

and the politics of what's important above you is different and it so you end up you know sometimes stepping on the wrong toes in the community or something like that and then you find out quickly how much backing you have.

Now you mentioned about you know this compounding trauma from some of the stuff that you saw as a young man through to you know later in your career where was the the darkest place that you found yourself and then what was some of the tools that allowed you to start growing from that trauma?

So I resorted to coping mechanisms of alcohol you know and you know I joke with people you know after a couple of those incidents that my fix was a six-pack in a dark room listening to country music which we all know isn't the good fix right but even you know even I was a battalion chief at the time and you know some of these like I said you know I had that vehicle accident you know thing that led to sort of my rebel behavior in how I managed

incidents after that use of helicopters was sort of restricted and I refused to accept that and I called for a helicopter anytime I could and then did everything I needed to do to justify it and so I would end up in front of you know some people bureaucrats whatever you know questioning me or and things and I remember telling one of them hey I'm done talking about this stuff I'm going to do my job I'm going to do what's best for

the people but I'm this conversation is over the next conversation we have about this will be at my dining room table with bottle of whiskey you know because you're bringing up things that I need to suppress and you know so I think you know there was that period of time where I resorted to the numbing effect of the alcohol for things like that and I figured out how to curb that you know we were fortunate in in that organization you know

where I spent my lifetime basically there was a police officer who went on to get his PhD in psychology and is the clinical director now for the west coast post trauma retreat center and was a founder of the first responder support network you know he was a resource right we started we started getting regular training from him you know that type of thing and and started to learn how to deal with that and so he became a resource and somebody

that I called and you know I talked about that circle when I was the fire chief and I had some things that came up not necessarily for me but you know people that I had in my organization that needed to get something that was the phone call right you know I was able to call him so so I think through through some of those changes we made in organization I was able to get you know get what what I needed then but I don't believe that I truly

started to break out of the burden of all that until I retired. What changed then?

Well just a I was separated from the job but I I discovered I discovered through my time with all-american leadership the art of storytelling and the first time that I was able to present my journey sort of from start to finish type of thing or whatever yes it was you know focused on the concept of leadership but but I talked about a lot of this stuff that shaped me and developed my compassion and empathy and things like that that changed who I was as a leader

later and and so it was through that process of you know starting to share my story and things like that I then hooked up with a group called the power of our story and we meet once a week and have a tribe and have an opportunity to unload and talk and share stories and things like that and I think I think that's probably where I've made most of my traumatic growth is through that storytelling process. How did you come across some all-american leadership in the first place?

I was introduced so there's a retired navy seal guy and you know so I was the chief in Coronado so you know obviously the seals are pretty prominent there and so but there was a retired navy commander or commandant or whatever they called him for the seals and he was in a local leadership group that I was involved with a kind of a community thing and he said hey you ought to check this stuff out and so as it turned out he was he was

an affiliate of Rob's at all-american leadership and doing some teaching with them or whatever and so he turned me on to the group I went to a workshop I got invited to sit at an executive leadership table discussion that Rob held and that would have been in like maybe early 2020 I think early 2019 and I was impressed by what they did and so I hired him as a consultant to come into the organization that I was working at and do some work with us and so I was a

client and and so I we worked and it was it was it was very important at the time because it's what got us through COVID you know they were providing this online stuff once a month on leadership at all levels of the organization I implemented it as you know some training people were engaged in it you know that type of stuff it really gave us some stuff to focus on as we as we worked our way through the COVID era and then when I retired and I will

be honest I retired sort of unexpectedly and unplanned and I remember calling Rob up and saying hey you know just want to give you a heads up I got like a couple weeks left I'm done and you know it's in the budget for next year I just don't know you know how what the dynamic will be as I leave and and part way through that conversation he said I need you to stop for a second I need to ask you a question and he said will you come to work

for me and so that was sort I said well I got some things to do and you know let me you know circle back with you and so you know after I finished my cross-country bicycle ride I got back and said hey okay I'm game talk to me you know that type of thing so I've been with them since then.

I want to get to the bike riding here about that in a second but just before we do you had all these different roles you know arguably leadership positions what was it that you found all American leadership that maybe was missing up to that point?

I think that the basic fundamentals that they focus on within their curriculum you know the development of trust alignment with values performance you know things that come and accountability and so we talk about accountability right and what is accountability and they somewhere in that process they shifted they shifted my thought process to change the word accountability to ownership and create ownership and somebody in that group has made this comment

about think about ownership do you ever wash the rental car? Probably not because you don't own it.

You don't care about it and so you know I started talking when I was still working as the fire chief I started like okay we need to create an environment where there's ownership where people are willing to wash the car you know they're going to take care of the organization in such a way that they'd be willing to wash the car and you know just so much of that stuff really kind of resonated with me right and then to circle back you know so I talked

about my you know getting a master's degree and I talked about my I discovered servant leadership in a book in the early 90s. It resonated with me I tried to like figure out well how do you how do you implement servant leadership at the time when you're working in a toxic organization that's you know this dictatorish type you know thing how do you how do you implement servant leadership so you're bouncing against the wall there.

When I got my degree my master's it's in organizational leadership based on servant leadership and and so I think a lot of what all-american leadership presents and supports and drives is that same type of thing so I think there was just a synergy there. Did you was the toxic environment the one that you have most your career in or was it a different one?

So I had Jocko on the show and we were talking about you know the last place that I worked and of course you know I've read his books and understand you know what extreme ownership is and walk the walk and you know positively bring solutions or brought solutions to that department and did trainings and all kinds of things but I asked him what do you do if it's not changing if that culture is so toxic you know and my solution ultimately was it

was so detrimental that I you know through the universe throwing some things at me transitioned out that department to fix it from the outside because from the inside wasn't going to happen and just a cliff notes on the background operations chief at the time was a dispatcher never been a firefighter the chief chief was a fire prevention guy never been a firefighter and then the other ranks in at the chief level were all EMS never been firefighters and there you know again

with the egos didn't want to hear from any of us lowly firefighters what the issues actually were and so you know you can do all the ownership in the world but there's a certain point where you've also got to go and even I've heard Jocko and Leif talk about this they had an officer where they basically had to you know turn rank on him so usually you know hopefully you can you can affect change but I would argue that sometimes the actual changes that

you need to remove yourself from that how were you able to navigate that situation that you were in? So in you asked me like when I was in that toxic organization? Yes yeah okay was there was there a way of changing it because like you said one of things Jocko says you just got to play the long game and wait well this last place they were grooming the next person to be the same exact individual so there was no long game.

I played the long game you know I had been like I mentioned earlier I was the labor president you know for four years went toe-to-toe with that individual you know that type of thing and don't get me wrong he brought a lot of great things to us right we got into hazmat we got into USAR I mean we we did some some great things it just leadership style was you know an issue and created toxicity in the organization and then there was this really

them and us relationship and you know that type of thing. But unfortunately there was an event that occurred that we just couldn't we couldn't live with anymore and the organization I was not I was not a union leader at the time but I was I was a level-headed guy I would say and so there was you know like we're gonna have this big this is it and I spent that weekend you know meeting and talking with people and we got to a point where we all agreed that we would tone it down a bit but

we would we would write a letter and we would deliver the letter in a significant way to City Hall to the city manager's office and and that was basically we had a it was it was related to our USAR program and stuff and so all the guys that were involved in the USAR group gathered with their gear and we marched to City Hall and myself and another person went into the city manager's office and said hey the city manager here and so

he came out and handed him the letter and he read the letter and said hey you need to take this letter back and and you know let me work on this I said I don't I don't have the authority to do that but maybe if you come out here you can tell these other people that and so he walked out and saw the the troops out in the lobby and realized what the significant was and you know and so sometime shortly thereafter there was a exit strategy

you know that they came together and then the organization started to change we got you know we had a couple temporary chiefs and we got a new fire chief that came in that was was the epitome of a servant leader and it was that individual by then I was a battalion chief when he came but it was that individual that really you know gave that opportunity for that servant stuff to really launch and he's the one that came to me one day and said

I think you have the skills to be a fire chief you're not going to be the fire chief here because I'm not leaving but I'll help you I'll help you get there and and you know and that was that wow moment for me you know because here's a guy that's you know you're going to give me the push to get to what I want to do.

Beautiful yeah but it still includes a coup which is what I know Jocko did with one of their leaders you know so sometimes the ownership means getting your pitchforks and your torches and you know forcing change that way as well so yeah brilliant all right well you talked about cycling across the US before we wrap up tell me about that.

So to touch on like getting to the whole cycling thing you know 2000 I grew up in the area in northern California where mountain biking was basically invented so as a kid you know I learned how to take my own stingray and make it into a dirt bike and you know ride on trails and things like that so got into mountain biking a bit but you know life came and kids and work etc the bike went away and I found myself in in about 2015 thinking I

need to get some exercise I need to do some things sitting behind a desk as a fire chief right and I was weighing mountain biking and I thought you know I know how I was I'm going to throw myself down some trail smack a tree and you know all that I think I'll take my chances with cars and so I got into road biking and I started road biking.

In 2019 I was diagnosed with job-related cancer and you know went through treatment went through a diet change you know went to a plant-based diet etc but really upped the game on the exercise and then I came across an organization called Firebello which is a cycling group for firefighters and their whole their whole focus is on raising money for an awareness about cancer and the fire service and mental wellness and so really kind of fit right into

what I was passionate about and things like that so in the my focus during my cancer treatment in 2020 during COVID which was always interesting was positive attitude healthy diet good exercise good medical support and a support network and I was going to get through this thing and so the Firebello group does a bicycle ride from San Francisco to LA every summer and I signed up for it and you know I was like okay I'm going to do this bike ride and

it's going to be the you know I was doing some chemo hormone treatment and then I was going to start radiation treatment at the end of August and so it's like all right this one week before my treatment I'm going to do this 500 mile bike ride down the coast and so that was the game plan then kind of COVID cropped up hotel issues again you know that type of stuff and so they cancelled the event I was pretty devastated because because

it was a there was a big piece of my my mental picture on on beating cancer etc and a buddy of mine that I worked with in northern California had signed up to do the ride as well he called me up and he said hey I talked to my wife I'm gonna do the ride anyway you know we can I'm gonna book the hotel she's gonna be my sag you know maybe you could come up the coast for the last day and you know ride with me on the last day or something like that I said

okay and by the next morning I called him up and said I'll meet you in San Francisco and so the two of us rode down the coast with our wives as our support team and we did it you know one week trip you know that kind of thing so so that was my my adventure my connection to fire velo and then they came forward in you know and they were planning at this point for a ride in 2021 to commemorate the 20th anniversary of 9-11 and that ride

was going to leave from Santa Monica and ride across the country stop at all of the memorials and land in New York just prior to 9-11 and so I went to my boss at the time in January so January or so of 2021 and I asked him I said hey how long is too long for a guy in my position to be off work and you know because this was going to be six or seven weeks and he said about a month and I said okay so I worked it out with the group I was going to

meet them in Indianapolis and I was going to ride the last 10 days of the route with them my buddy that did the coastal ride with me was also going to go with me and we were going to both meet up in Indianapolis and do the last 10 days with the group well then lo and behold in June I you know made that rash decision that I was done and as soon as I you know probably one of the second or third phone calls that I made after I made

that decision was to call the fire velo guys and say hey my schedule freed up can I do the whole ride and so they said sure and so I did so we left we left the Santa Monica Pier on August 1st we rode through the desert through Arizona New Mexico Northern Texas into Oklahoma we stopped at the Oklahoma City bombing museum and we pretty much left there and took a little diagonal all the way up to Pennsylvania went to the flight 93 Memorial

dropped down to the Pentagon and then and then went to New York it was a 40 day scheduled trip and we were 34 days on the bicycle we averaged somewhere over 90 miles a day we had one stretch where it was I think eight days straight without a day off and when I say day off those days off weren't really days off because you were busy maintaining your bike and going to stores to get supplies etc. you know that type of thing but some

some great adventure you know I tell people you see a lot of the countryside when you're traveling at 15 miles an hour we spent most of a good part of our time riding on the you know the actual pavement of old route 66 through some towns that have been wiped out you know once they built the new highway and that type of thing it was a great opportunity you know being separated from work you know having just retired you know so I spent the month

of July busy scrambling working out the logistics and getting all my stuff and you know figuring out how I was going to be gone from home for seven weeks and you know all those things that they go into play so I it really I wasn't able to really I didn't dwell on the fact that my career had just ended and then going across the country you know a lot of time on the bicycle a lot of times to think a lot of time to process and that type of thing

and then you know got to see some great things got to see some you know and you think about what was going on in 2021 right in the summer and such you know I still got I got to see a lot of Americana you know people coming out to celebrate us and support us and you know even in communities that weren't well off you know people buying us and you know we go to we go to a restaurant you know and there's 15 or 20 of us in there eating and

of course we had shirts on that advertised what we were doing or you know whatever by the time by the time we finished our meal you know we'd get a note that oh some guy at some table that left 20 minutes ago paid your pill you know that type of thing and so it really restored you know some of that positive American stuff that was so fractured at that time so I think that was I think that was a great adventure not without you know

personal emotional and physical challenge and all that type of thing I think one of the best days was the Pentagon was still closed in September of 21 when we went there and you know but we we felt you know we needed to go there you know we knew the memorial was closed but we figured well we can get close enough to get a picture by the sign or you know whatever and we were there and so we we cruised in there we're kind of milling

around trying to take some pictures well when that when there's 12 guys in tights and you know funny looking clothes and bicycles milling around at the Pentagon eventually you attract some attention it so a squad car pulls up and the sergeant gets out he comes over and talks to us and then we tell him kind of what we're doing and he's like what he walked right over the barriers he says grab your bikes move the barriers to come with me and he walked

us in and gave us a private walk through and tour and explain the whole memorial and you know all that kind of stuff so that was that was a pretty cool event you know and he basically said yeah if my boss found out that 12 guys rode their bicycle across the country here landed here and you know I didn't do this for them you know probably wouldn't sit well so that was our thing there.

I've had quite a few people on the show that have done the kinds of trips that you did you know some memorial ride walk ruck etc and over and over and over again are these stories of kindness and compassion you know offering up places to stay meals you know equipment and I think this is this is the real America this is the real UK Australia whatever you know country you want to insert that this is how humans really are you know

and sadly our screens are adorned with the bad people whether they're you know they found themselves in the world of crime or they're you know heads of pharmaceutical and cigarette companies whatever it is you know that's what we see the kind of misery and the division but there's no better way of reminding yourself how good people really are is to kind of walk outside your own front door and immerse yourself in your community and find find the helpers

isn't that what Mr. Rogers you know it's like you know look for the helpers and that's exactly it but the helpers are everywhere the helpers are inside a lot of us but we're distracted by work and bills and the news but that's over and over and over again I hear this inherent goodness of most communities and it's so beautiful to hear every time someone's story tells about that element of their journey yeah it like I said it was I want to say it was a once

in a lifetime thing but but I think you know there's some cheddar maybe doing a 25th anniversary ride you know we'll see what happens with that but but yeah I mean it was just the other piece of it was you know just the completion right the the the journey the feet you know the challenge probably that I tell people that probably the the hardest day the hardest day for me was the day we went to the flight 93 Memorial because it was about it was about

an hour ride from where we were staying so we got up in the morning and rode there it was raining you know it was wet and you know you're riding your bike in the rain and wet and we get there and there was a National Park Ranger that was there waiting for us he he'd been in connection with the group for months you know that we were coming when we were going to be there you want to make sure he was there he was I think one of the

original people from when the site opened and you know and there's a whole story behind their their kind of motto logo that's associated with a I think it was an LA County firefighter but you know he really wanted to be there talk to us and give us the tour and that kind of thing and so it was we were there for about an hour but we were wet and by the time by the time we finished you know besides the emotional aspect of going through the museum

and all that type of thing the cold wet you know was impacting and I remember walking out getting you know ready to go and I looked over at the you know bicycles all lined up there and I looked over the other side of the parking lot where our support vehicles were in the RV and the trailer that were you know there I thought man I could just go put my bike in that trailer and hop in the RV and be comfortable and warm for the day because

we had 90 miles to go and so I said I can't do that and so I ended up getting on my bicycle and I went over to the other side of the parking lot looped around in circles etc. Well some of the guys were going over to get some dry shirts or you know something that's like I can't get anywhere near that van can't get anywhere near that trailer because I'll pack it in you know I just need to stay over here and then and then we eventually got it all

together and took off from there but that was that you know that ability to overcome that that challenge that that throwing in a towel kind of a thing. Amazing well one last question before we wrap up you mentioned you know obviously overcoming cancer what was the cancer that you had?

So I was diagnosed with prostate cancer and it was you know it was a fluke that I discovered it right I went to the doctor for other reasons and he was going to do some blood work and hey we'll do a PSA test and okay and so you know the number came back a little bit a little bit elevated not you know dramatically elevated and of course you know Dr. Google you know you start looking at Dr. Google what does that mean and and then looking at Dr. Google

I discovered that that some of the issues that might indicate or cause an elevation of the PSA is heavy workout cycling you know some other things so I immediately tell the doctor it's all good you know I just I did a hundred mile bike ride you know a couple days ago and you know you didn't tell me not to work out before I worked out that morning and you know I went it's so this has got to be nothing and he said okay well we're going

to repeat the test in a month and you're not going to do any of that stuff and we'll see what it is and so the number had gone down but it was still up you know not dramatically he said well we need to send you the you know urology for eval and that type of thing and so I went and you know everything was unremarkable then nobody was really finding much but they said we'll probably you know so they they requested they were going to do an MRI yeah

that was the next investigative thing in the insurance company denied the MRI and they said that under their protocol whatever it is that that before you can have an MRI you have to have a biopsy and I thought well wait a minute I have to have this invasive procedure before I can have an you know a fancy x-ray but so that was what I did had the biopsy and of course it came back with with a small you know location at the time of the cancer

and so then it was then it was off to the races it's like okay and so that the doctor at the time and I had again done a lot of research and the doctor there was this thing called active monitoring and so the doctor talked about active monitoring she thought that was a reasonable approach and she said you know come back in six months and we'll do an MRI and we'll do another biopsy maybe and sort of see where it's at I said okay

and I the next morning I I thought to myself I said you know don't you need an MRI today to compare it to in six months and so I went for a second opinion and went to went to the doc you know different doctor who was a surgeon you know he basically you know he was a hotshot at University of California San Diego and I had researched him a bit and so and he was like oh no we're gonna go in and get that thing and remove it and get it out of you

and all that kind of stuff and of course my only question to him was okay well how soon can I get back on my bicycle you know and so so that was the that was the approach the next thing I did was I filed my workers comp case and when I met with my attorney he had had the same kind of cancer and he had had radiation treatment instead of surgery and his partner had also had it but he had had surgery so he had seen sort of both things

and so he encouraged me to at least explore things and so I did and I went to the radiation oncologist and I tell people I think he did a better sales job you know he presented me with graphs and charts and data and you know all this kind of stuff and and gave me the idea that he was pretty confident that he could take care of business with the radiation treatment etc so that was the route I took and I did some hormone treatment and I did

some I did external radiation and I had seen implanting as well and that seemed to that seemed to take care of the the cancer you know all the numbers are good now and you know I still got I guess I think I have two years left until they you know quote unquote say you're you're at that five-year mark and you're clean but I'm pretty confident in stuff and and things that I did at the time because I've heard some of your your other

people talk about I was listening this morning to the one you just posted about inflammation and you know all that kind of stuff and that's where I went with my diet right and still am where I eliminated that inflammatory diet stuff and really focused on the health and physical fitness and well-being and all those elements that I stuck with and so I think I'm in a good spot the only the only battle I have now is here we are in 2024 I still

haven't managed to get the cities to sign off that this was a work comp thing and they could actually give me a seven and so we're still we're still making still having that fight and you know that's been a I mean they they tried to independent qualified medical examiner when they deposed him they said hey because in addition to the the cancer which is presumptive in California and I also had some hypertension that caused some cardiac

stuff so that again is a presumptive issue and so when the when the city attorneys deposed the medical examiner guy they said well you know that that thickening of his ventricle wall his heart it's not related to the hypertension good god he's an athlete he rode his bicycle across the country he's got an athlete's heart that's what caused the thickening of his heart it's not the it's not the hypertension oh and by the way all the all the side effects

from his cancer are because he sits on bicycle seat all day got nothing to do with the radiation treatment that you did or you know the the damage from the cancer or whatever so that's the that's the fight I'm dealing with right now it's so maddening because you hear this over and over again even in you know states with prevent presumption laws you know these these poor men and women are fighting which is adding

more stress and therefore breaking down their immune system and making them more likely to get ill and I've literally had people say that they've been in the room where they've heard members of these kind of you know legal teams say we'll just fight them until they die they're gonna die first you know which is so disgusting and again goes back to the leadership if we're hearing this over and over and over again clearly it's a truth I

mean every every department has stories of you know a firefighter who absolutely has work related issues and ironically you know in in the the military you know it's it's not that hard to prove that you know what you've got going on is related to your service you know even I don't know if it's still the case but up until recently if it's changed you could self-diagnose with PTSD for example you know now you have our first responders

who 24 hours at a time are being exposed to horrendous shit we know that sleep deprivation is a carcinogen what breaks down you know mental health and yet these men and women are having to jump through hoops to prove oh which fire was it well the last place I worked hardly ever saw a fire but they ran all day and all night so they had sleep deprivation so they can't point to a fire but their work is still contributing to the numerous cancer

deaths that departments had so you know again this is where leadership comes in from the probie through to the chief and you know beyond is that we we need to refocus what's most important you know and overtime is irrelevant if you don't make it to retirement you know the only thing that we can really advocate the true currency is our health and our longevity and our time with our families so you know thank you for sharing that because this is

just another layer into this conversation that I hope will finally gain a critical mass and really you know get us away from the conversation always being on d-con when it comes to cancer and widen our perspective the same way as you know what you saw on the job isn't your entire mental health conversation so that that appalls me that you are going through that with such a story career yourself yeah and you're right I mean I had that conversation

with my attorney I know I've said I know what the tactic is because because guess where I used to sit you know and so I know what the tactic is delay delay delay right eventually eventually they'll either give up or or they'll succumb to something and the and the payment won't be there anymore you know or that kind of thing and so I know that and that's not gonna happen for me I'm not giving up and I don't plan to die soon absolutely well and

also what's you know refreshing is through I'm sure your own self-discovery and hopefully with some you know help from the medical professionals too you were thinking about diet you were thinking about exercise a lot of people that get this diagnosis they're told about radiation they're told about chemo but they're not told about all the lifestyle changes because you know what was it that contributed to the development of cancer and how many of those can you change

that will improve the chance of a reversal and you know at least stop the growth right and and that's you know I when I talk now to fire service professional I have the opportunity too often to talk to recruit academy classes and things like that right and and I and I I talked to them about this is the greatest profession ever right you know all the all that stuff but then I shift and I say hey but I need you to understand some of the realities

you know when I first started in the fire department we took our turnouts home and washed them in the washing machine at home with you know that we next washed the family clothes in right you know and we did stuff you know that was stupid that exposed us and in those types of things so you know long before I became diagnosed with cancer I was a proponent for changing practices and you know exhaust systems and fire stations and

you know all those types of things that that reduce the risk and you know you're never gonna we're never gonna eliminate it you know there's always going to be some level of risk but but you know I was a proponent for making those changes and implementing things and you know some of the simple stuff you know when I was working on the fire engine where was every day we went on five or six medical calls right where was the medical equipment

was right above the exhaust pipe my whole career at last you know the one compartment you're in and out of every day is right above the exhaust pipe right we're exposing ourselves all day long and so you know making some of those types of changes and trying to address those issues and and I talk about the traumatic stuff right you know the post-traumatic or the trauma stress and you know dealing with that but but again I was passionate about

those things before my diagnosis but that's where I focus a lot of my talk now with people you know they're entering the profession they learn from what we did you know pay attention to the changes that are being recommended and and that type of thing it's you know it's important and it will it will help you probably end your career maybe a little less scathe than some of us beautiful well Jim I want to thank you we've been talking for two hours

now we've gone all over the place from dispatch to leadership to cancer and mental health but it's been an incredible conversation so firstly if people out there want to reach out to you or learn about the organizations that you're a part of now where are the best places online to find you so I'm on LinkedIn that's probably you know that's that's the I'll say the professional site you know I do a little bit on Instagram and Facebook

you know just I'll say family stuff you know that type of thing but but LinkedIn is probably the spot you know I do work with All American Leadership which is AllAmericanLeadership.com and you know one of our biggest projects is the Fire Service Leadership Academy we actually launch a new academy next week with 36 participants so I'm pretty excited about that coming up I also I work with first responder coaching where I provide coaching services for first

responders so you can find me on that website as well but if you want to make direct contact with me you know LinkedIn would be the spot beautiful well again I want to thank you so much not only for leading us through some of the the more educational and organizational elements but also for the courageous vulnerability when you're talking about you know the the trauma and the drinking and the cancer because that is what we really need to hear and we

talked earlier about toxic masculinity being the two-dimensional you know facade of a man the more leaders I have on the show that are courageously vulnerable the more we dispel that myth as well so I want to thank you so much for being so generous with your time today and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast.

Thanks for having me and like I said the you know part of the healing process for me that the discovery is is telling the story right sharing the story and that type of thing is very helpful and in preparing you know preparing for the presentation or you know the discussion of you know going through thinking about all that stuff and you know it's I don't fear it anymore right you know it's not that's not to say I don't have some demons that crop

up every once in a while and mess up my night's sleep or something like that or or take me down a path that I don't want to go down but but the the ability to kind of go back and remember some things and oh yeah that was not great but this was the growth that came out of it and I think that's the key.