Jeff Morefield (Policing, Tornadoes and Navigating Transition from the First Responder Careers) - Episode 1085

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issues and injuries before they happen. Now, if you want to try Teambuildr, they are offering you, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast, a free 14 -day trial to experience all of the features. And if you want to take a deeper dive into TeamBuildr, listen to episode 1032 with Melissa Mercado or go to teambuilder .com. And I'll spell that to you because it's not as you think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome

to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show law enforcement veteran, army soldier, and the man behind the Encore Project Foundation, Jeff Moorfield. Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from his journey into the world of policing, tornadoes, dive teams, gangs, and most importantly, the transition from the first responder and military

professions into the next chapter. Now, before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment, go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for others to find. And this is a free library of

well over 1 ,000 episodes now. So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women's stories so I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them. So with that being said, I introduce to you Jeff Moorfield. Enjoy. Well, Jeff, I want to start by saying two things. Firstly, I'm glad that your gardens are going to look amazing when the landscapers are done. And secondly, I want to welcome you to the Behind the Shield podcast

today. I love being here, James, man. It's an absolute pleasure. I've been seeing what you're doing on various different sites, social media, and all the rest of the stuff. And it's just an absolute pleasure to be here to be able to talk to a firefighter, you know what I mean, as a police. You know, as a police officer myself, you know, sometimes we don't get those great conversations going. But I fear I see that this

one's going to be a good one. Absolutely. And just to throw it back for people listening, they will start felling a tree outside my window at some point. So there's going to be just as much background noise there. So we'll see if we can kind of dampen it in the editing room a little bit. Hopefully mine will be done in about five minutes. Yeah, well, they just pulled up a wood chipper. So I'm assuming it's going to be pretty damn loud on my side, but we'll see. They have

a job to do as well. All right. Well, very first question. Where on planet Earth are we finding you today? I am in the Edmond, Oklahoma location. It's the greater OKC. It's what a lot of people call the land of milk and honey, Sparkle City. It's a pretty up -to -do type of area, but it's Edmond, Oklahoma. It's just on the north side of Oklahoma City. Population of about 100 ,000 people, 100 square miles. Been here since about

1994. I'm going to ask a question purely because my son just asked it the other day because he, for some reason, got pulled into, I think it was the new Twister movie, and then he watched the documentary on the fatal one that they had a few years ago in, I think it was Missouri. And anyway, he said, have you had many people

talking about hurricanes? And so seeing as you're in Oklahoma, not hurricanes, excuse me, tornadoes, what has been your experience as a resident there over the years as far as the impact of tornadoes in your area? Well, here's where my honesty is going to come out, brother. So in 1999, actually, let's go back to my childhood. So my father was in the military. He was an Air Force pilot for 27 years. And we would PCS from Tinker Air Force Base to various different other bases around

the country, but then also in the world. I actually graduated high school in Ramstein, Germany. But when I was a kid and during those three years, I think it was 1981 to 85 timeframe. There was a tornado that came through and we're in an area just east of Oklahoma City. And I remember literally laying in the hallway with mattresses over our head, you know, because it was thought that that tornado was going to come over our head. And obviously the Doppler systems back then weren't

as accurate as they are now. But, you know, that was my first experience. And then kind of going into my adult life, I... came back here and went to the University of Central Oklahoma, played soccer here for a couple of years. And some of the things that I saw was not only just the Murrah bombing, but you had the tornadoes. And in 1999, I was a police officer for about two years. And on May 3rd of 1999, the biggest F5 tornado came

through the south side of Oklahoma City. And as a police officer, 25 years old, that kind of thing, driving your police car down a I -40 interstate in complete darkness made you rethink what tornadoes can do. And when we got off the off ramp, we actually missed the off ramp to go to the command post because it was so dark, you couldn't see it. And so we went down another mile down to Indian Hills and we turned back

around. And I get off the off ramp and I see a car on my left side and it is completely skeletonized. I mean, the only thing that's left of it is the frame. We pull up into a church and this church is a pretty large amount of pretty large church, got a huge parking lot. And that's where the command post was there. But I could look up at the church and I could see this two by four. And it is a huge two by four that was literally embedded in the brick and had never seen anything

like that before. And then, you know, once we corralled and got ourselves together. We deployed out to our area of operations and we were still dealing with gas leaks and people trying to find their loved ones and all the rest of that stuff. And so I was put in an area where I was in traffic control, basically, who was allowed in, who was allowed out. And that was probably the longest 36 hours or one of them that I had been on in

my entire life. And then coming out of that, the sun rising and seeing all the destruction, you go back. And you're looking at it again. And then in May of 2013, there was another one that came through right in the same city. And this one was, I mean, just absolute destruction. And I was on the SWAT team at the time. And so they deployed us out to an area that was got a lot of national visibility. And so we, you know, we're the protective. force around the

neighborhood. The national media was literally right where my area was at. And so, you know, we had to not only look for victims, look for survivors. You know, you're walking in areas and you feel absolutely so bad when you're walking through these areas and you look down and you stepped on a family's picture. You know what I mean? As you're going through all the rubble and you're just like your heart just melts. You know what I mean? You know, you're at the school

that got just completely destroyed. You're pulling kids out of there and that type of thing. And that so you ask about my experience in tornadoes. There is a lot. My wife thinks I'm an absolute idiot because there's times where I look at the Doppler and I go, well, listen, if it ain't within about a half a mile, I'm not really worried. You know what I mean? Because I know, you know, I know the trajectory. I know where it's going.

I can literally see it and I can predict where it's going to go just because you're around it so much. And then obviously seeing the ones that are continuously going right now, you know, we just you're we're constantly under that kind of that threat, you know. And so you just you live and learn from it. You understand it. You know, you know, I have a storm shelter and, you

know, you do all your your. your your packing of your stuff and you make sure your kids know what to do and all the rest of stuff and you know and how do you how do you just make sure that you're going to survive whatever type of event that comes through it's just that mindset what is your perception on how long events like that stay in the media because when i think about tornadoes in my mind and it may I don't have the news so it's more relying on you know presence

on social media and then diving in and you know BBC and some of those other ones but I I think about okay this happened today and then that's it it's gone but then you actually look at the devastation that some of these tornadoes cause and kind of like North Carolina with with the floods there It seems like it's in for a couple of days and it's forgotten. Meanwhile, the people of North Carolina are still digging their loved

ones out of the mud today. So what is your perception on a national scale of how much exposure these events actually get in your area? So I think on the national side, it just gets a couple of days, maybe a week. It depends on the destruction. You know what I mean? I can say that May 3rd to April, The May 3rd tornado and then also the one in 2013. I mean, it obviously got some national

attention. So it was there for a while. But the ones that are still, you know, F3s, F4s that come through and like there's a there's a there's a city that literally was just wiped out here in Oklahoma last year. And they're still. It's a year later. They're still in recovery efforts. You know, I mean, and the only ones that really do kind of focus on that are your local people, your local medias, your local newspapers, whatever it is. They're the ones that are giving that

visibility to them. But on a national scale, it's there for a little bit. And then they move on to the next story. And that's. And I get it. I understand. But at the same time, lives are affected and things are going on. And you still have a massive impact. They're still rebuilding. They're still trying to get their economy back up and going. People lost jobs. This last one, they had police officers and firefighters that were going and dealing with the aftermath while

their stuff is getting destroyed. You know what I mean? So it's just and I'm sure it's the same thing in Florida on on hurricanes and stuff like that. You know, I actually in the National Guard side of the house, I went to Hurricane Harvey down there by the Houston area. And we were deployed down there out of Oklahoma. And you saw the devastation of that hurricane. And that hurricane took forever to get, you know, for that economy to come back. Port Aransas is a is a big, you know, very well

-known area down in that area. And it was completely destroyed. And, you know, when we go down there and see that, you're looking at it, you're like, how in the world can they rebuild from that? And it takes a few years. But to go back to your point, it's on there for a little bit and then it disappears. I just want to take a step back. And this is apolitical, you know, both sides. What normally ends up taking the attention off is, oh, this politician said this or this politician

did that. And, you know, and now all of a sudden

we're talking about stuff that isn't. helping fellow americans and it pulls the focus and it pulls the funding probably and it pulls the fema response i would assume you know because now we've forgotten about that you know it's not on the tv anymore so i think it's you know it's something worth a conversation like how long should we retain the focus on that and you know should we be kept up on on the rebuild and how people how are people doing and you know people

now finding their their way into a home now versus a trailer i mean You know, you look at some of the things from Katrina and then the Puerto Rico hurricanes and, you know, years later, some people are still not back to where they should have been. Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think they're, you know, in the media side, and obviously I'm not in the media, but I think if they were to say, all right, hey, listen, let's go and

see what good stories are out of. you know, out of this, you know, what, what have people done to rebuild? What, what are some, some good lessons learned so we can actually talk about it. Right. So, because I think sometimes what happens is those lessons learned are just stayed in a vacuum. You know, they're not, if, if, if they're just stayed there in that vacuum, then nobody else can learn, you know, Houston, you know, New Orleans,

you know. Tampa, Florida, all the rest of the stuff, if they don't learn that lesson that, you know, that they learned, how are they going to know? You know what I mean? And I think the biggest, whether it's social media or just the media itself, the local media, you know, I remember doing just a local story here and it blew up and it ended up on, you know, Fox and Friends. You know, it was just because of an initiative that we had taken on during COVID and all of

a sudden it was. It was boom. It was out there. You know what I mean? So I think there's value in looking at something where, yeah, you had it. It was devastation. It was bad, all the rest of the stuff. And I think that's, unfortunately, that's where the media focuses a lot on. But they need to go back a month, three months, six months later and go, hey, listen, these are some of the things that they have done to position

and prove their. community their townships all the rest of stuff right even to you know fire response police response you know uh female response you know what have they done to improve themselves and i think the other thing is how can we help i think people still want to keep helping but you need to be focused all right well this initial thing now you know food and diapers and all that stuff we're good with that but yeah you can help contribute to the rebuild or you know whatever

it is because there's a lot of people that are wanting to donate And there's that term donation fatigue, and I understand it. Every man and his dog has got to go fund me these days. So again, how can we kind of band together? Okay, well, these people really need our help right now and refocus that kind of altruism in the States. Yeah, it's that sustainability, you know, that it's got to stay on the radar. You know what

I mean? And if it's not on the radar, then people are, you know, they, it's just like everyday lives, you know, whatever's in, if you look at their calendar, they're just attacking their calendar for that next 24. You know what I mean? They've already forgotten about the last, you know, three weeks or whatever it was, you know

what I mean? So it's just keeping it on their calendar, on their radar, you know, and I think if you intentionally do stuff like that, then maybe, you know, things will become much more positive. It's funny you mentioned about the echo chamber not learning. I see the same in, you know, I know fire. I mean, I don't know if it's the same in the police, but until people have actually worked in the States, you don't.

And then certainly if you've been in multiple departments where you get more of a 10 ,000 foot view, you realize how fragmented our profession actually is. And not only is there cities and counties, but in some places, cities and counties won't even talk to each other and PD and FT won't

talk to each other. And so you have this, all these good people reinventing the wheel, whether it's a mental health initiative, whether it's a training initiative, whether it's trying to bring, you know, police and fire together for the next, God forbid, you know, school shooting. But there's so much wasted energy because I feel though, even when we've got unions and some other, you know, air quotes, national organizations,

I don't feel like they do pull us together. And there's a lot of wasted effort on dissemination

of knowledge. And therefore people kind of, starting from the bottom when you know maybe two states over someone's figured it out and i've got a great program that they could just adopt yeah i think i'm glad you said that because i just had a conversation with a friend of mine today on just the umbrella of synchronization right so you know when we respond to things when we go out to certain instances or whatever it is you know the police are they're in their lane

The fire in their lane, EMS are in their lane, right? Dispatches in their lane. And a lot of times what happens is they just stay in that lane. And they don't look at kind of the bigger picture, right, of the totality. And I get into this a lot, James, when it talks to we are very linear and hierarchy oriented instead of strategy oriented. Right. So, you know, when we and that's all by rank and, you know, all the rest of that

stuff. Right. So you have a task and purpose and it's all by rank and what you do and your position description, all the rest of that stuff. But we get so honed in on that that we can't look at the bigger picture. And that goes not just for the line guys or the middle management side. That's even the hierarchy. And I think sometimes what they do is they go, well, I can't talk to that that other entity because. I don't

know anything about them. Right. So, okay. So you're just going to stay over here in this corner and not know anything when you guys are doing mutual aid type responses. And I'm not saying that that doesn't happen, but there's a lot of times where, you know, think we would show up to certain incidents or whatever it is and fires doing this, we're doing this and all that. And then it's like, okay, so what did we learn from

that? You know, where, where's the big. you know effort within the fr community to say hey listen you know what did we do right what did we do wrong right and then how can we put those lessons learned or an after action review whatever you want to call it right and then let's let's look at it you know how can we improve it and not only that why don't we share that in other organizations so i i i don't know of a kind of a multi entity, association that brings in police, fire, EMS,

all kind of your first responder umbrella where they all talk to each other. Right. And that's that's something that's very, you know, police oriented fire. And I've been to so many different conferences now. It's all within their lanes and they just kind of just stay in their lanes. And that sometimes can cause some friction. Absolutely. Yeah, I agree completely. You mentioned about Germany. So let's go back to early life. Where where did you find yourself internationally?

And then when you reflect back now, what was some of the things about that particular country that, you know, you think fondly of now? Oh, man. Well, I will tell you. So there's a there's some positive and negatives about, you know, being a military brat. And I'll kind of hone in first on the positives. You know, I was born in Blyville, Arkansas, and it's not even that base anymore. And then I went to Del Rio, Texas, and my dad was a flight instructor there and

then moved up to Tinker Air Force Base. And that was 1981 to 85. And then we PCS permanent changes the station out to Ramstein, Germany. So I was fourth grade through sixth grade. This is 1985 to 88. And this is during the Cold War. So the wall was up. East Germany, West Germany, all your communist countries, all the rest of that stuff. But if you remember, too, James, at that time, Libya was bombing everything in Western Europe. They were going around to every U .S.-oriented

type facility and bombing it. You would drive up to the Air Force Base gate and, you know, you'd pull up and they'd have sandbags and they have an M -60, you know, just. on its tripod, and they're searching underneath your car, all the rest of this stuff. And as a fourth grader, right, coming from the United States, seeing that, you're going, what's going on here? You know what I mean? Why do we have all this stuff

going on? But then going into the actual base and just learning the culture and learning the food and learning the school system. And, you know, we lived on base, but we were able to travel. And one of the things that really made me value the United States of America was in fifth grade. I want to, it was a boy scout trip. Um, and we went to East Berlin. So we ended up going through West Berlin and, uh, went into, into East through

checkpoint Charlie. You could see the wall. So on the, on the West side of Berlin, you have all the spray paintings of the murals and all the rest of the stuff for the people that have tried to jump the wall, but were killed. And so we went on a bus. We went to East Germany. We're walking around. We're seeing Brandenburg Gate and all the rest of that stuff. And I remember an East German guard coming up to me and taking a camera that I had. And back then, you know,

you had film in the camera. And so you're taking a picture. And that East German guard took that camera, opened it, ripped the film out, threw it, and just yelled at me, right? And whether it was Russian or German, I don't remember. But then what they told us was like, you couldn't buy anything on that market. And if, if you've ever seen any East German money, it's all, it looks like funny money. It's all real light.

And it just, it doesn't look real. So I bought this, they told us we couldn't buy anything, but I did anyway, typical American. So I, I bought this little bear. It was a, I don't remember what kind of, it was called a stife. Anyway, so I bring it on the bus and we're coming back through and we're, we're going through. checkpoint

Charlie to go back onto the West side. And I remember this Russian Eastern guard with his AK 47, just, you know, walking up, we've got our passports up against the, up against the window and he gets pissed. And I'm like, Oh Lord, what's going on? So he comes up onto the bus, walks around. And I think I'm done. Cause I have this bear, right? I'm like, I'm thinking I'm never going to see my family again. I'm not, I mean, all that stuff, all that fear. Went right

in through my body. And he gets off the bus, waves us through. And my parents are waiting on the other side. And it was like a homecoming. Like I ran off that bus, grabbed my stuff. I wrapped my arms around my mom. I was like, do not ever send me to a communist area ever again. Right. So, you know, on the positive side, I really saw the value of what the U .S. is for. You know what I mean? The freedom, the ability

to. to have the laws that we have, the freedom of speech and all the rest of the stuff that we have here. And then I went back to Tinker and spent some time there. And then I went, my dad got PCS'd again a month into my senior year in high school. And we had to go back to Germany.

And I'll be honest with you, James, I was not a very happy camper because I was... varsity everything i was i was doing all the things athletically wise you know i really kind of grew my roots because you know i was actually somewhere for a long period of time and i was actually starting to create relationships and now to be ripped out of that and go 7 000 miles away um it really really destroyed me internally But the good thing is, is my mom sat me down at a Baskin Robbins

ice cream store and said, hey, listen, son, you're going to have to get your shit straight. And I'm like, all right. So I ended up going. I didn't do any sports, but I went to JROTC. And I really love the uniform. I love with my dad. I respect what my dad did. My grandfather was a P -38 pilot in World War II. We actually flew out of, we actually went to his airfield in England. and saw the airfield that he flew out of. And I cannot remember off the top of my head what the name

of it is. But really got to understand history, learn history. I went to, you know, we went to Normandy. In a JROTC setting, I went and did a lot of rifle team competitions. And one of them was in London, England. And just, you know, all those things that we got to do, you know, and just expanded my mind on what Europe was like. You know, I went to I went to Lisbon, Portugal.

I did, you know, you know, I did Aviano, Italy and just all these places that we went to and really got to see the culture that is out there. And then, you know, I got I got accepted at the University of Central Oklahoma and came here. And that was in 1994. And my parents were still stationed in Germany at the time. So I did two years of college. away from them, but I would go back every Christmas and summer back to Germany and hang out with them, do some trips, that kind

of thing. But I haven't been back since I was 19 years old and I cannot wait to go back. I look forward to taking my wife and child over there. I think it's absolutely essential that they see it, that they feel it, they understand the culture, they understand the food, the language, all those things. I think it's extremely important. For them to know that and not just be in the bubble of the United States. And so anyway, that's

that was my experience. Now, my negative side, as I kind of touched on a little bit before that whole movement piece created a lot of relationship issues that I would have. I would get I would only gain about surface oriented relationships. So it was really hard for me to trust and be able to. have those deep relationships with people. And that, that went into my, into my service in the army that went into my, you know, service in the police department, that kind of thing.

But as I grew here and as I, as I gained knowledge and good friendships, you know, that, that had started to go away. But that was, you know, that's, that's really kind of the negative that I could see out of it. But, you know, you always, you always pull yourself out of it. You know, you, you figure it out. Amazing. It just reminded me, I watched that docu -series Turning Point. There's one on 9 -11, there's one on the Cold War. And they tell the story of how the wall

came down in Berlin. And I'm going to probably butcher it, but it was something to the effect that they finally, under national pressure, said, OK, we're going to let a few people go through. And I think the initial thing was you kind of relinquished your citizenship in the East. You had to give them your passport. You walk through and then you never come back again. Well, they send, you know, all these people start lining up down by the wall, by the checkpoint, excuse

me. And they're going through and they're like, yeah, this is what we've been told. And I guess they were trying to get hold of Russia to say, okay, what are we doing here? And they weren't answering. They were kind of like ignoring everything. So then they first let them through. And then some of these people were like, well, actually, I need to get back to my family. So then they were, you know, umming and ahhing, they let them back through. And what happened is word got around

and people started pouring through. And then the word was, you know, the borders are open. We're good. And it was all because I think there was one one guy and it was really interesting the way they put it. He did a press conference and this is how it all started. He just did a press conference and said, we're going to open it. But he was flustered because when you are a dictator, you know, or, you know, a communist regime, you don't do interviews. You tell everyone

what's going to happen. So now he's on this national stage. He does an interview, completely falls apart, says the wrong thing. People go to the border. They start confusing the guards. The guards are just basically like, well, fuck it. Just go through. No one's given us any orders. And that is actually how the wall came down. That led to all these people going through and then they started chipping at the wall. And I

didn't realize that. I thought it was kind of a little bit more diplomatic than that, but it really wasn't. It was just a kind of crumbling

of the entire. facade that was this you know this barrier between the east german people and the west german people so i mean the the swell of support that you know started growing once some of the people started chipping away and we're all pouring through and you know relatives were reunited after all those years um yeah all because there's one one communist couldn't do a very good press conference it's kind of actually quite funny when you look at the backstory Yeah.

Yeah. God bless state, state run TV, right? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It's, it's, you know, it's, it's great, James, because, you know, my family and I, we, we were able to, to gain a couple of pieces of the wall, you know what I mean? And it's, it's, it's, it's pretty neat that, you know, we have that, you know, in our house and stuff like that, because it was such, it was such a big thing for us to see, you know, my dad over there doing his thing in the, in the, in the

air force. And, you know, I did. I mean, we saw it, you know, we saw the depression, the just the look on people's faces like they you could see, James, that they actually despise this being there because they didn't want they didn't want to see in the way that they were in, you know what I mean? And the environment that they were in. And that was that was heartbreaking to see that, you know what I mean? And just and then to be able to go back over, you know, and they

can't. I mean, that just that just pulls on you. You know what I mean? And so and they would have literally, James, they would right outside the wall with these murals and they were just beautifully spray painted. But they would have these little platforms that they had built on the on the west side to where you could kind of see over the wall. Right. And you would have guard shacks. I mean, and they would just they would just lock in on you. You know what I mean? Like and that

was just. Could never, that's the value I cannot stay. And every time I talk to my troops and I've talked to various different people, I always explain that, that we are so lucky to where we're at right now. And to be able to experience that as a young fifth grader was something I'll never forget. Well, if you think as well, multi -generational trauma, you have the Germans after losing the First World War. So the average man and woman are fighting, being told, okay, this is what

we have to do. Loads of them die, and they rot in trenches just like the Allies do. They lose. Now they go back to a massive depression. Then this crazy little fucker with a mustache comes up, starts getting everyone riled up. This is how we're going to fix it. Same thing happens.

Hundreds of thousands of Germans die. you know obviously some are horrendous people but most are probably just thinking they're you know doing the right thing for their country don't know about a lot of the stuff that's going on behind the closed doors and then again now they're half you know westernized and half you know on the communist side and then you know the war comes down and you just think i mean generationally what has that done to the germans i know a lot

of us look at them as you know they're the evil but No, there's some tyrants that use them like puppets, like we see even to present day, that coax a lot of them into doing things. I would say the same with the Russians that went into Ukraine. Most of them probably couldn't give a shit about going into that country. They just want to be at home with their family. So this kind of history repeating itself is so tragic because then you get a broken down population.

Now they're easier to divide. And now the potential of this happening yet again grows. Right. Yeah, absolutely. And I even when I was in high school, we would walk around and my the second tour that we're in, we actually we actually made it purposeful to live on outside off the base. So we lived about 20 kilometers outside the base. We're in the foothills of a small little mountain. We actually had a castle in our in our backyard

that was up the hill. But we're in a cul -de -sac and we purposely put ourselves into that village setting. Because my dad and my mom were very intentful to understand and know the Germans. And we got to sit down and have just long talks with the Germans back from World War II, even before that. you know, their country developed afterwards and where they're at now, the attitude towards the West and all the rest of that stuff.

And one of the really great things that they really appreciated was my parents putting my youngest sister in a German elementary school. So instead of going through a, you know, a DOD school there on base, they wanted her to go in.

And I'll tell you what though, man. this was a good thing because my dad really liked it so when they would have parent teacher conferences they would have a keg of beer out there so they have a keg of german beer a little bit burger or something like that so my dad was always at the parent teacher conference um so they knew how to do it up right you know so um but you know just just getting to really kind of see Their impact and how the West impacted them and

how their own people impacted them and that type of thing. It was just it was a really, really good, good relationship. And even now, my parents had brought over two German exchange students. And so they came over and they lived with us for several years here in Oklahoma. And we have multiple visits now. Like they come to us, we go to them, they're all married, got kids, all the rest of the stuff, but we consider them part

of the family. You know what I mean? And it's just, it's just creating that type of relationship, you know? And they, you know, obviously they have their culture and their thought process, but, you know, it's, it's such a, it's such a good environment to be around, you know, different cultures and, and, and seeing, you know, how they live and what they do and all the rest of the stuff as opposed to us. I went skiing a few times while I was in elementary school, basically.

So the first time I think I was eight. So that would have been 1984. So you're talking less than 40 years after the war ended. And the Austrian people are beautiful people. And then 2001, right at midnight, I landed in Japan, lived there for 15 months. And beautiful people again. And again,

they were, you know. against us in world war ii and you just see that you know it's that shared humanity and when you look back over and over again it's the greedy and you know power hungry few that that ruin it for everyone and i'm hoping that there's going to be like an awakening now in this technological age where people are finally seeing like those tall poppies are rotten and you got to cut the head off and right you know

start again right Yeah, absolutely. And I think it starts with just, you know, small relationships, you know, because, you know, I remember being overseas and, you know, seeing, you know, various different countries like the Romanians, you know, we worked with a lot more. And I, you know, Romania back when I was a kid was part of the Eastern Bloc. You know what I mean? And so and then now you have a U .S. and a Romanian soldier together and, you know, their their vehicles and all the

rest of stuff. It was like, you know, and they talked about, you know, the the time before all the rest of stuff and and how we're all, you know, together now and doing it for the. for the greater good and all the rest of that stuff. I think it's amazing that, you know, it's, it's at that point right now, but you know, it's, and I still have a lot of those guys that are still on my Facebooks and, and we still converse

and congratulate each other. Like I went through a career course with a Pakistan officer, you know what I mean? And, and he was probably one of the most gracious, kind individuals I've ever

been around. You know what I mean? And so. um it's it's just developing those relationships because when it gets comes down to it when when something kicks off they're going to remember those relationships 100 well going back to kind of your journey into the career as you were progressing through the school ages were you thinking of law enforcement or was there something ahead of it yeah so it was kind of law enforcement was was in in the in the idea But I was primarily

wanting to be a pilot, just like my father. He was an AWACS pilot, just like my grandfather, who was a P -38 pilot. And when I was in that JROTC, like I talked about before, I actually became one of the top cadets. And they actually gave me the ability to fly a real F -16 flight simulator in Ramstein. There was only two of us that were allowed to do it. And so we got in the cockpit, did our thing. The colonel went

over a couple things. And, you know, and took off just fine, flying in the air, gave me the ability to shoot down a C5. And they gave me 500 rounds and I went through 500 rounds just like that. And then I asked about missiles and they said, that's classified. You can't use it. So so then then they gave me the the the version or the concept of how to land the F -16. And I said. OK, so you have your heads up display. Right. And so this is going to get a little bit

of crude here. But what they say is they, you know, let the let the egg, let the sperm eat the meat, the egg. And I'm like, what? And so they have two circles and one's got a tail. Right. And so what you do is you meet those two and that creates your flight path. Right. They come down and land. And I'm like, OK, I'm a senior in high school. I kind of get what you're talking about. Right. So. I do the flight path and I

land just fine. And I get out of the cockpit and the instructor there looked at me and he goes, have you thought about being a pilot before? And I said, well, that's what I want to do. And he goes, you are born for it. I said, okay, well, it's obviously in the lineage, right? You know, I told you I went to University of Central Oklahoma, played soccer there. But I also was in the at University of Oklahoma and their ROTC program. So the Air Force ROTC. So what I did at the time

is I was playing catch up. So I did two years within one and was straight A's. All the rest of the stuff did just fine. And then it was going into my junior year and they were doing a health evaluations on us. And because I was a dependent,

I had dependent records. medical records and in those records i had an asthma attack when i was five years old and they just automatically disqualified me so you talk and this was right after the gulf war so you know there's no um they were not taking anybody with any type of respiratory issues that type of stuff so obviously in complete devastation um dream completely killed um i then decided that I still wanted to stay

in uniform. I still want to serve. And a buddy of mine asked me, hey, do you want to work at the University Police Department as what they call a student officer? I said, absolutely. That'd be great. You know, junior year, I could make some money at the same time. And not very much, but you make some money. And so as I'm working there, I really, you know, began to love the job. I really got to see, you know, what the

police do. And on a university level, but we also got to intermix with the local agency that I ended up working with long term wise. And we got to see him go on calls, deal with different issues, you know, work with the fire departments, all the ambulances, all the lights and sirens. Right. All the cool things. And so I decided that, you know, I'm going to I'm going to get a major in criminal justice. And right at that same point, my chief came up to me. I was 22

years old. He came up to me and he goes, hey, Jeff, do you want to be a full time university police department, full time university police? And I told him, I said. I can do that because you can do that, I said, and he goes, I'll tell you what, if you say yes, I'll hire you right now. And I said, well, all right. So I took a full time job without any interviews, without anything at a university. And, you know, I took my MPIs, did all the things that you're supposed

to do. But, you know, I went to the academy in 1998 and was a full -time police officer August 1st of 1997 there. And obviously I was a junior in college. And, you know, I went from a four -year plan to a six -year plan because I had to go through all the academy, the FTO, all the rest of that stuff. And so I did that, was there for a year. And then I left there and went to a city called Yukon, Oklahoma, which is the home of Garth Brooks. And went there and spent about

three years there. And then eventually in November 2001, moved up here to Edmond, Oklahoma and did my last 22 year. And just thoroughly enjoyed it. Love every bit of it. My boss called me the shit magnet. on the shift. And it was just, it was just one of those things where I loved getting involved in, in various different aspects within

the job. I did several different things in the job, anything from SWAT to underwater search and recovery, field training officer, you know, critical incident, FBI negotiator, all the rest of that stuff. So it was, I loved my, I loved my career. And I'm glad that kind of God shifted me towards that. To be honest with you, I feel like that was my true calling. Even though I still get up and some Cessnas every once in a while with some buddies of mine and I fly around,

I kind of get that itch. But I love the fact that I don that uniform and help just so many people in whatever situation they were in. You talked about doing the kind of the crisis intervention stuff. When we look now at all the kind of, you know, trials and tribulations that the profession of law enforcement has been dragged through, through the press, some justified, many unjustified, you know, the relationship with the community, the ability to de -escalate obviously are tools

that a good officer would have. Talk to me about that through your eyes. I mean, you had a high level of training, you know, when it comes to this. What is the importance of this interpersonal skill when it comes to all areas of policing? You know, the mental health side, the critical incident side, or the crisis intervention, that really didn't come into place until probably about 10 or 12 years ago. I always look back

at Ferguson. as in 2013, at least for the police world, as the tipping point or where we went a different direction. You know, when that happened in 2013, it was my experience that our policing changed. And it's called the Ferguson Effect. It's talked about everywhere. It is definitely acknowledged. at least within the police world. And I think from that really, it restricted us in doing what we were really truly meant to do and proactive policing, right? So that takes

a toll on you. You know what I mean? So you're wanting to do all these good things and you have the ability, you have the talents, you have the training, all the rest of the stuff, you have the tools in your tool belt. And now you're told you can't use a third of them, a fourth of them, whatever it is, because of X, Y, Z, because of how it looks, whatever studies out there, all

the rest of that stuff. Right. So, you know, I think that's where the turning point and and on the on the crisis intervention side, you know, we didn't get our CIT tabs probably. And that's a 40 hour course that we all go through. But that's actually to. evaluate the consumer, which is those that you're in front of on domestic calls, on mental health calls, whatever those behavioral health calls are, right? So you're

actually evaluating your community, right? And what I didn't see until about 2021 in our own agency was we were not looking at ourselves. We were not evaluating ourselves. We were not. We were not going, all right, Jeff, you just saw a massive, nasty fatality accident that involved child, whatever it is. Right. So back then it was all right. Put it in that little compartment, suck it up and show back up the next day. Right. So and that's that has started to change. you

know, at least for my agency in 2021. Now I know others have done some a little bit before that. But I think on the health side, we focus so much on the community's mental health. And training and getting them, you know, ED or emergency detained and getting them in the facilities, you know, based off whether they have insurance, they don't have insurance. What's the best facility? Are they going to be inpatient, outpatient, whatever you call it, right? We were so focused on the

community, which don't get me wrong. That's what we're supposed to do, right? That's our job. That's in our job description. But what we failed to do in the meantime, and for a long time, is we failed to look at our own selves. We failed to look at those that we're in charge of. We failed to look at our left and right brother and sister. We failed to look from top down and even even lateral. You know, we failed to look at, you know, how are we doing when we when we

show up that day? You know, is there is there stuff going on in the workplace or in your on your family side that's preventing you to be 100 percent within your department? You know, what does your finances look like? You know, are you so far in debt that you are working every extra job in the world to where when you actually show up for your real job, you're so damn tired, you can't even be there, right? So we were killing ourselves because our focus was on the community.

And I get that. I understand that. But I think we're starting to come around a little bit on, at least here in Oklahoma, on trying to mitigate that and really put a focus on it. It's interesting that you say the Ferguson effect because I sadly personally experienced a horrendous incident with my son in middle school. He was going through some stuff. He was seeing a counselor. At that time when he was with his mother, there was kind of a tumultuous relationship in that household.

Many times I'd pick him up because he'd be in tears. He was going through some shit. He's a little boy. The school is aware of it. He's got counseling going on. And then I'm driving home one day, very long story short. He normally calls me when he's, you know, lets me know he's getting on the bus and lets me know he's got home safely. I didn't get a call. So I call and he answers the phone. He goes, oh, the principal wants to speak to you. I'm like, okay, what's going on?

Oh, you know, he's had an incident. We're not sure what we're going to do yet. We'll let you know. So I'm like, okay. So I keep going towards the school. And don't hear anything. And I call and they're like, oh, yeah, he's been Baker Act. He's been sent to the local holding facility. Yeah. So I'm, you know, firstly, so zero communication with the family. The only way I knew is because I was chasing up where the fuck is my son. So

it turns out that he was upset. And the principal and the SRO, end of the day, basically, they just wanted to go home. And so they did a 5150 on him for being upset. It literally is what it was. He was upset in the classroom, getting some, you know, intrusive thoughts that the counselor said are normal for children of that age. And so anyway, they do an evaluation. Of course, he's fine. But I mean, you can imagine that sends me on a fucking tirade to find out what's going

on. Well, while he's there, literally in the 72 hours, I think five or six kids from the same school cycle through. Now, I was a firefighter for 14 years. I can count a number of Baker Acts on one hand. And they were either bona fide suicide attempts or people are going to hurt someone else. And you've got the same that I have my whole career in 72 hours of kids that are 8, 9, 10. So anyway, but then when I dive in deeper, it's a statewide issue. And it was Parkland.

After Parkland, just like you said with Ferguson, there's this massive knee jerk. And the schools are like, well, just send everyone. But what was really sickening in that event is I went to the school, I pulled all the records from PD, and there were hundreds of baker acts for these children in the county. And the school blamed the cops and the cops blamed the school. Not a single person had a fucking backbone to say, we were wrong, this needs to be changed.

But there was kind of the wheels turning already statewide and they changed the policy. And now if those two had done what they did, they'd be in prison. Because that's basically kidnapping a child. And they had great protocols in place. If you're even in doubt, the people from that facility come, they evaluate the child, they deescalate. And then, you know, in this case, my son would go home with me. That's it, done. So, you know, so it's funny because you say that.

We have such a kind of pendulum swing at the moment. One thing happens, which was horrendous, don't get me wrong, in both cases. And now everyone else has to pay it all the way on the other extreme. The thing I've said with your community, and I've made this observation so many times, when mistakes are made and they're the gray area ones, not the officer was 100 % right and it's just the media being out of place or the officer was 100 % wrong, but everything in between. When

did that police officer sleep last? Have they been forced into a second shift? Like you said, how much are they getting paid? Are they having to work extra jobs because they can't even make ends meet because the city or county doesn't pay them properly? What's their level of training? Is there a fitness standard? That is how you increase the service to the community is you create physical and mental health in the people

who are protecting them. And that then will pay forward to a higher level of service and a higher level of relationships with the community. Yeah, James, you're absolutely right. You know, and even even after Ferguson, I'm sorry, after the George Floyd incident, you know, you saw just another ramping up. of all that, you know what I mean? So you have Ferguson coupled with, you know, the George Floyd incident and all the destruction

that happened after that, you know. I'm a big advocate, you know, and I'm 50 next month or next week. And I'm a big advocate that if you are not physically, spiritually, and mentally tuned up, then you are not going to show up 100%. You know, and when we don't have the standards that are there within our agencies to ensure that we have that, then we are going to get 20, 30, 40 percent of our ability. And I always fought I always fought our agency on why we don't have

a a physical fitness yearly standard. Now, we did on the SWAT team. OK, but that's it. And even that started getting a little inky, right? And it was because a lot of the guys that were kind of in the upper echelon couldn't perform it. And so they started to tailor it down to meet their needs. You know what I mean? So, you know, and that's where I think, and I had this long conversation with a couple of guys and I said, why don't we? why don't we have an athlete

program for first responders? You know, you have all these, these NFL guys and these MLB guys and all the rest of this stuff. And I understand money. I got it. Eight agencies got, you know, different budgets and all the rest of this stuff. But why don't we have some sort of athlete program that, you know, you have these big supplement, you know, and all the rest of this stuff that could literally back this stuff, you know, powered

by whatever it is, right? You have Rogue and you have all these other big weightlifting, all of it. Why are we not instilling an athlete mindset in our first responders, right? Because they have to perform from zero to 100 within a second sometimes, right? And so like for us, you know, we talked about, All right, you're in your car, especially as a training officer. All right, you're in a car and you get in a pursuit or you have something happen and it's right in front

of you. You've got to jump out of your car and you've got to haul ass. Are you going to be able to take that 40 pounds that you have on you, be able to jump fences, all the rest of that stuff? And then once you get that person in custody, are you going to be so tired that you can't put that person into custody correctly? Because your mind is going to go because it's tired. It's

going to shut down, right? But if you're not training that, if you're not training that aspect from the academy all the way on and keeping that standard, then all you're doing is you're opening yourself up for litigation. And litigation is not really the important part, but it's your own safety. And it's the safety of your brothers and sisters to your left and right, right? So, you know, I was a... And I still am very, very active in my gym, all functional fitness type

stuff. You know, I stay in it. And I've been out of the game for a year and a couple months. You know what I mean? But age has no – it doesn't matter. But I think what happens is agencies are just scared to do it because maybe the quality of the people that they have within their agency isn't going to be able to meet that standard. You know what I mean? And so, you know, they got to perform a service. But at the same time,

they're not given 100 % in that service. The thing that's crazy in the fire service, and I've said this, I mean, hundreds of times now, but the name of the certification that you get to be a firefighter in Florida, the name is minimum

standards. and they i love that they named it that that is the shittiest you should be your entire career and i'm just like you i'm just turned 51 i'm still in the gym i'm still able to do what you know we're supposed to do in fact the combat challenge is one of our entry tests i did it just i think it was three years ago now and you know great great time still at my age so i agree with you that don't you don't need a taper because if you're doing yeah if

you're doing like you know max deadlift and jump tests and you know 100 meter sprints then maybe, but we're not doing that. Like in the fire, you can literally put a sequence of events like we do in the combat challenge, the fire sled, there's got one now. And so you're moving a hose, a ladder, a person, you're climbing with the things that you would actually be wearing or holding. So you can't say it's not fair. You were held to

that standard at day one. But just like you alluded to, what I have seen, not all places, but a lot.

is the the union leadership in a lot of places they're scared of failing it so they're like well let's just oppose it they're trying to take our jobs instead of saying well i i should own it because i knew what to expect because it was given to me on day one this is what you need to be able to do to be a firefighter and then to oppose that within the profession in law enforcement and fire and i would argue even ems because medics have to move people around too That is a complete

spit in the face to the profession itself and the people that we serve. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I never thought, you know, I always had this idea when I was a kid that, you know, cops are here, firefighters are here, all the rest of that stuff. And as I went through my career, you know, and I get it, you know, small towns, all the rest of that stuff. But as I went through my career, I started seeing, you know, The. The bodies, the type of the type of individuals that

were in those those those positions. And I go, how in the world are they able to do X, Y, Z? And to do it well. Right. So I just I've never understood it. It's been a personal thing for me that I would never be in a situation where I couldn't handle myself. And it's just because I had the love for my brothers and sisters on my left and right. You know what I mean? And even even as as moving on up, I just I never wanted to succumb to, hey, I'm up here. I don't

have to do it. You guys need to do it. Right. So I that's that was never a thing for me. I never liked that. And so I just the mentality has to change. And it's and it's been said to do this change for so long. And it's and it just it never happens. And I think a lot of it has to do with that leadership that doesn't want it. They don't want to take accountability on

themselves. Right. So those those deputy chiefs, those majors, those captains, unfortunately, have put themselves in dire straits to where they can't perform it. They don't do it. And so they don't make it a policy. They don't implement it within a union. You know, I can, I can think of union presidents right now that probably couldn't run a hundred yards right now, you know, and it's just, it's just, they don't want to do that. You know, they it's because then it would hold

themselves accountable. Absolutely. Have you crossed paths with Danny Long? that has the Oklahoma State. I mean, that in itself, you got to, you know, someone who just takes it upon himself to say, all right, we're going to be part of the solution. And I think that's amazing. You're getting these people that are pushing back now and saying no. And I think when we turn this recruitment crisis around and really attract, you know, the amount of young people that we're

used to in our professions. you can now put that bar up and then say from day one, all right, now we are going to require a fitness standard and we're going to slowly pull everyone else in who's already on the field. But a lot of people that I've had on the show kind of push back on that, oh, kids today, they're lazy, they don't want to work. They're like, that's bullshit.

Like the fit candidates that we get. are really fit these days because they've got like you said functional fitness and mud runs and you know all these these different things that we just didn't have when we were you know young recruits so i think it's a beautiful exciting time but we have to drag these people that are opposing out the shadows and say look you know you got two choices get your ass back into shape or step aside that's it but don't to condemn police officers

and firefighters and paramedics to poor performance and a much shorter lifespan because you don't have the balls to actually... Because think about it. What is it really? It's a fear of getting tired. Someone said that to me on the show once. That's it. If you don't want to exercise, you're scared of being tired. Well, if you're scared of being tired, why the hell are you wearing a first responders uniform where lies depend

on you? Yeah. Yeah. And a couple of multiple points that you're talking about there, James. So I was having a great conversation with with a group of individuals. And I said, I remember when I first was was hired on in 2001 here in Edmond, they asked me what sport I played. And I was kind of curious of why they asked that. Well, then as we're going through and we're, you know, going into, you know, 2009, 10, 11 timeframe, and even into Ferguson, I started

seeing our recruits come in different. And I think what's happened is because of the social stuff that's going on right now, you know, they, they've got to, they've got to be just super clean. You know, they've got to, you know, they, they can't do anything wrong. And just because they're so worried about. you know, X, Y, Z happening or whatever it is. They failed to go after the people that understand team concepts. And that would be athletes. Athletes know how to work

as a team. They understand accountability and they're going to keep themselves physically fit. Right. So, and, and I, I just, I, we, I have seen that. I saw that happen probably the last 10 or 12 years where we've gotten away from.

You know, actually actively going and going to high schools and recruiting wrestlers, you know, recruiting football players, all the wrestlers, those people that understand, you know, whether they're golfers or whatever, it doesn't matter, you know, whether they're in their physically fit, they understand team concept and they hold each other accountable. Right. And so we've gotten away from that because they need the college degree or they have to have such a clean background.

uh, that they can't, they have to come in because God forbid, you know, that they did XYZ back when they were, you know, 18, 19 years old. Right. So, and in my sense, I'll be honest with you, James, I was not a clean guy when I came through as a, as a, as a juvenile. I mean, I stole a car. I did all kinds of crazy, stupid shit. And I told him that in my polygraph and they were like, wow. Okay. And I said, yeah. But you know

what? It made me a better cop because I could see all through the bullshit that you would come across on the street. Right. So it was just one of those things where we have gotten just so away from that. And we just so hyper focused that we've got to recheck ourselves and go, hey, listen, we need to go after people who have real life experience, who have been athletes, understand the concept of being an athlete and then get out there and, you know. do the good things that

we're supposed to do. And there was another part that you were talking about there and I just lost it. But I just, I feel like that on the recruiting side of the house, that means that focus needs to kind of go back to that, that world. I've seen a little bit of it happening right now. We're, you know, we're at least my agency, they just posted a deal where several

of our guys are prior D1, D2 wrestlers. And they're out there at, you know, University of Central Oklahoma, University of Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, you know, all those guys recruiting those types of individuals to come into our world. You know what I mean? And if they have the heart for it and the desire to do it. And, you know, those are the types of people I believe that you want. But here's the thing. Some people are scared

of that because they're scared of the egos. You know, they're scared of, you know, what these guys are going to bring into the academies. And I'm like, well, listen, man, this is an A -type personality type of, you know, world that we're in, that we have to live in. I would much rather reign somebody back than how to try to kick somebody in the ass 17 times just to figure out how to shoot a freaking gun. You know what I mean? So it's just, it's that type of concept that I think

we've got to get back to. Well, it's funny because if you look at... I've always said this, the real tough guys, the wrestlers, you know, the other martial artists, the ones that are great shooters, they're some of the nicest people you'll ever meet. So actually your dangerous egos are the people that aren't sure of themselves. And we all know that, the little Napoleons that are running around there. But when you talked about earlier, the MMPI, I've had this conversation

a lot. That was never meant to even be a standalone

test. And we use that for screening. Polygraph, you know, I'll give you a funny story and people listening, regularly i probably heard this before so i apologize very first test i ever pre -test that i ever did was a kind of collaborative one they did here in south florida and you do this one test and then they give your results to all these agencies and miami beach were there one of the lieutenants and they had these pre -apps so we filled it in and i'm like you know naive

fresh off the boat Englishman. I'm like, well, honesty is important. So let me say about years ago when I did this drug where you dance a lot and hug a lot of strangers. But that was a long time ago. He screwed it up and threw it at me. And I was like, oh, so you've got to lie about your past to be a first responder. Got it. Lied my way through three polygraphs. And again, ironically, the things that I did back then are now the things that we're seeing are helping first responders

and veterans heal from their PTSD. Same exact comment. But it's kind of made me realize there's this facade of we want choir boys, but anyone with any sort of desire to learn about the kind of person that puts his uniform understands that a lot of us are here because of the shit that we went through when we were young. And if we work through, that becomes an absolute asset. So to say I want a guy who's never done anything

bad or a girl. is ridiculous. Now, some of them will have, they would have been straight edge and, you know, their path really didn't have much trauma, but a lot of us have been through some shit. And that's an absolute asset because that makes you, you know, I would argue a lot more resilient, you know, as far as the mental toughness side, but also compassionate and empathetic.

If your mother was an addict, if your dad was, you know, you lost your uncle to gangs or whatever the thing was, you understand a lot of these streets that we work in. If you've been sheltered your whole life, never done anything, and then you're thrust into the red light district in your city, your head's going to fucking explode. So I think we've got to shift that. There are, of course, some crimes that are unacceptable

that you can't put a uniform on. But there's so many where it really doesn't, as long as it wasn't recent, of course, that it shouldn't be a disqualifying factor if someone's been on a healing journey and rehabilitated from whatever that thing was. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad you said that because that's exactly what needs to happen. I just I look at our recruiting and just in our last. I was a field training officer until about, I think, 20, 2022 or whatever. And I just

got I got frustrated with it. And. just because of the of the individuals that were coming through you know the the the times that our agency would you know they would do you know this person has to get an extension in a training process six times you know and it's like man if this dude or gal has not got it you know and it's something that's real simple by the you know second or third time then it's probably an issue right

and so i i have I don't know. I, I think, like I said, I think as long as they, they, they're going, I think they're going back down the other path. Cause I think they've realized at least here in Oklahoma city area, I think they've realized that they can't be so quote unquote judgy. And I'm not saying that I know they have to do their due diligence, but at the same time, they have got to get people who've done real shit. you know, in their lives have been, have got real

life experience. And like you said, take that experience to the streets to where, when, you know, if you're going into a fire, you never know like what your experience was on the fire side as a kid, as an adolescent or whatever it is. And now you see a similar situation with a family or whatever it is. And now you can be kind of that, that linkage and that assistance to them. you know, after all is said and done, you know what I mean? So I just, there is value

in some of our mistakes. And I think that, you know, Denzel Washington said it so greatly. He said, ease is the greatest threat to prosperity than hardship. You know, and that's, and I think

because we want things so easy. that we don't get the value of the toughness right so and and I every time when I when I talk to a lot of different a lot of different individuals because now I'm I'm doing this thing called next phase leadership where I talk about like going into your next phase of life and the lessons that you need to take and and all the rest of that stuff and and and I have my own kind of speaking world on that but I love I love the fact that we can that we

can learn about it and and invest in it because when we do that we can pass it on to somebody else right it's all about we're very service -oriented people right james and so that's the reason why we do what we do and when we have that togetherness and we can do that and we can share it with others i didn't i'm not able to do what i do because i was such a clean person Right. I've gone through all my trials and tribulations and bullshit and all the rest of that stuff.

And I've I've walked a path that's been pretty tough. And now I want to be able to gift it to somebody else saying, hey, listen, these are the lessons I learned. And these are these are what I want to impart on you so you don't have to. And as you move forward into your into your your next phase of life, these are the things that are going to set you up for success. Right.

So. I just feel like, you know, when somebody comes in, I'm regurgitating, but if you're just completely clean, got no background, blah, blah, blah, you bring no value. Yep. Yep. I agree. Well, that's a good segue because I'll make sure that we talk about transition. We've run out of time talking about tornadoes and fitness standards. All the good stuff, right? Sorry, I'm burning up in my room. It is. It is. All right. Well,

then, you know. It's become very apparent through actually seeing, but also all these conversations that the transition from the first responder professions, the military, can be very jarring to some men and women. I mean, you have this beautiful sense of purpose. You have this tribe. You have this identity of being someone who is making a difference in the community. And then one day, and I just ironically just did a video about this because we just lost a retiree to

suicide. in Miami -Dade. I think they transitioned that about two years ago. You know, that door closes behind them and they cease to be anything anymore. You know, the seat that they occupied is filled with a warm body. You know, they don't factor on any sort of statistics. There's no

VA for first responders. And then, you know, now a lot of them believe, oh, I guess I'll go be a security guard if you're a cop or I'll go teach at a fire academy if you're a firefighter because they haven't really realized the amazing gamut of skills that they actually have. And where I see people transition successfully is when they've understood, oh, I'm a servant. I was just wearing this uniform, but my mission is to make the world better and I can do it in

a different way. Where, you know, people seem to really hit a brick wall as they go end up, you know, selling houses or finance or something where they don't feel like they're adding value. And then, you know, it just kind of compounds from there. So it's a, you know, kind of monologue preamble. But so talk to me about what made you even aware of the need for some sort of structure as our first responders navigate out. And then

let's get to Encore Project. Yeah, so my process started back in about 2018, where I had a buddy of mine ask me literally, what are you going to do after you get done? And I stood there on a golf course and I go, I have no freaking clue. No idea. And that scared the actual living crap out of me. Because, you know, doing 25 years, which I expected to do, would put me at 48 years old. And at 48 years old, you still have quite

a bit of life to live after that. And if you don't have any type of purpose or understanding of what you're going to do or how you're going to make ends meet. Yeah, you have a retirement, but it's, you know, I did. Idealistically, you don't you only get about 50 percent of what you're getting, at least here in Oklahoma. Um, you get a, uh, kind of a lump sum that you want to tuck away to where you can talk, you know, you can, you can play with, you know, later on in life,

but you've got to be able to do something. And, and, and yeah, financially you'd be decent, but you need to do something like you just said, you know, we're very service oriented people. And I just, I started looking around and. I'm in the National Guard and in 2020 commanded about 120 troops over the Iraq, Syria, Kuwait area. And when we were coming back, I noticed that the, and I knew about it, but I actually got

to experience it. The military has got to, and it's whether the quality is great or not, they've got a transition assistance program, right? The Soldier for Life Transition Assistance Program. And they would, you know, kind of deep dive into, you know, how you are, what, you know, what are you going to do when you get home? Do you have a job? You know, what's your resume look like?

All the rest of that stuff. Right. And so they try to help the service members, you know, look at, you know, moving into the private sector. And I kind of, you know, obviously going back to my 2018 thought, experiencing that in 2020 and coming out of that. I knew what my timeline was. My timeline was about 2024. And then in 2021, I was in an officer -involved shooting. And that really kind of propelled this process of trying to figure out what I'm going to do

when I grow up. And so it really was a methodical thinking. It took a little bit of time to come about. But then I started also seeing. that we do have those that are leaving and dying just all of a sudden, you know, perfectly healthy individuals dying of various different issues, you know, mostly cardiac cancer, suicide type issues. Right. So about January of 23, after I was cleared and everything from, from the officer of all shooting, I really took that on to start

doing some research. And like you said before, there's no VA system. for the first responding community. And when I say FRs, that's what I mean, the first responding community, you know, that's police, fire, EMS, dispatch, corrections, you know, those types of individuals. And I started looking just through Google and other places where they have like white pages, they have various different studies all the way back to the 80s on difficulties that first responders have when

they move into the next phase of life. And that means moving in the private sector, whether that's James, whether that's after three years of service, seven years, 15 years, 30 years, right? So it varies. And what I've found, and in every state that I could talk to, nobody had a process. When we come into our service, we onboard so methodically, intentionally, intensively, you know, and it's done by structure, right? And you're told if you're good enough to come into this family,

right? And then after that, it's total focus on your professional development. Very little on your personal development. And so when you move through this profession, and then all of a sudden you're like, hey, I'm looking at leaving. And the six months before I left, I was called

a rod and retired on duty. You know, it was it was, you know, a name that they gave you and you're just like, OK, well, the reason why I told you guys I was leaving is because so you guys could plan to bring somebody on to replace me. I knew that that was the case. Right. And now I'm getting. Bastardized because of that. Right. Because I'm leaving, blah, blah, blah,

whatever it is, right? And so as I'm sitting there, James, and I tell my HR I'm going to go, and they say, yeah, we just need a letter of resignation. Cool. Is there anything else involved in this? Nothing. Pin drop. And so it pissed me off. Made me mad. To the point, James, where when I had my retirement ceremony on February 1st of 2024, they gifted me my sidearm, which I'm very grateful for. But they gave me the wrong box for it. So that shows you how intentional,

methodical, how they rid you, right? that really hit me hard that I did 26 years of service, all the things that keep the agency, the community, you know, my, my family, everything, you know, my, my brothers left and right, all the things. And to be off -boarded in that way was asinine because now I got to figure out what the fuck I'm going to do. And that's okay. I can do that. I'm a big boy. I got big boy pants. But at the same time, I don't know what it looks like on

that other side of the gate. Like they tell you at the beginning what it looks like to come into that gate. They tell you all the things you're about to get into. They tell you like what you need to do, all that stuff. But when you leave, there is no vision. There is no structure. There's no mentoring. There's no coaching. There's nothing. And you're left out there. to do your own thing at your own time. And you just figure it out

yourself. That's cool. Got it. That's why we're having all the problems that we're having right now. Right. And so now there is some conflict that I'm seeing between the active side and the, I hate saying the R side. I say the next phase of life because, you know, that is the next phase, right? When you start putting the R, I want to put a big old circle around it because I'm not done. Retired doesn't mean that you're done,

right? So there's this conflict that's going on between the uniform side and those that are on that other side. And we're expecting the uniforms to understand what these people are doing over here. and developing policies, procedures, any type of off -boarding process, whatever have you, to get to an understanding of what's going on on the other side, right? Which doesn't make sense. So what you need is you need entities like us to come in and say, hey, listen, this

is the shit that you're about to see. This is the pathway that is about to happen to you. Are you prepared? Have you looked at your finances? Do you understand your pension system? Do you know the differences between the fire side, the police side, you know, your 401ks, your 403s, deferred comps, all the rest of this stuff. Have you set yourself up financially? We get that question answered. Then we move on to the holistic health side of health. You know what you're going

to go through when you leave? You're going to have an identity issue. you're going to go, I'm not the guy they call anymore. You're going to go, I'm not the guy, at least for me, I had a police car always out in my driveway. And now I have no car in my driveway. Right? So I have all my, I literally in this office, I have all my uniforms right there. Right? I can never don them on anymore. Right. You know what I mean? And so it's you know, how do you how do you master

your mindset to change that? Right. And so we we go into a lot of that in some of our in our course. And we talk about the the pathway from aspiring to being accomplished. I mean, there's a lot of things that we talk about in that in that avenue. But then we also talk about the physical fitness side of the house. Just because you're done doesn't mean that you're done physically. You've got to keep moving. Right. And so we bring

in entities that focus on that. We talk about, you know, the difference between shift work and behind the desk and all the rest of that stuff to now you're on that other side of the gate. How do you keep yourself physically healthy? Right. And we have it backed by different proprietorships

and we align with different individuals. And then we also talk about the mental health side of the house, you know, the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you know, the belonging side of the house, you know, the self -esteem, you know, all that that's in there. Right. And unfortunately, what happens is that when we leave, if we don't prepare ourselves, if we don't have an understanding what it's going to be like on that other side of the gate, then we go to drinking and we go

to gambling. We go to infidelity. We go to all the patching mechanisms that are out there, right? We might go fish and golf for about three months. You know, we might do all those great things that we talk about. But at the end of the day, we have to have a purpose. And that's whether serving in your local church, you know, going, you know, a volunteering at a food bank, whatever that is, or, you know, finding out what other

job may be out there for you. that can take your skill set and attributes in and level up that business. So we do a lot of resume building. We own that process. We tell you, we'll bring your resume in from your agency and we'll be able to tell you, hey, you could be a sales guy if you're a people -oriented person or a task -oriented person. We'll be able to tell you what... What area you can go into that would be best fit for you, whatever you want to serve in. Right.

And then we also bring in a group called the SHRM. It's the Society of Human Resource Management. And they they will literally do mock job interviews. A lot of us are very used to doing job interviews in front of a board. And so and I'm talking more about our program, but, you know, we actually do some some mock interviews one on ones. And these are HR individuals from various different HR entities, businesses that are here in the

Oklahoma City metro area. And they'll do a two 30 minute ones where they will evaluate and give feedback. And so that first responder, when they come in, whether you're a battalion chief or you're a lower level, you know, lower level patrol officer or, you know, a paramedic or whatever

it is, you're feeling comfortable. having that one -on -one interaction with that hr individual right so you know it's a lot of it has to do with language a lot of it has to do with presentation how many james let me tell you it's been surprising how many do you think are actually on linkedin first responders in general you mean yes um The way you phrase that, I'm going to assume it's low. So if you hadn't phrased it that way, I'd be like, oh, it must be 80%. But I'm assuming

it's not. It's extremely low. And we all know what LinkedIn is. It is a resume, right? And so, you know, we bring that in front of them and help them build their LinkedIn profiles, you know, and really be able to put them in. Some of them don't want to be on that type of platform. And I understand that. you know, um, and, but, you know, giving him those resources.

Uh, so they, when they do make that decision, you know, and we, we really, in our beyond the badge courses, we, we target 18 months and in whatever, whatever your gate is 18 months out to help you facilitate that, that transition. So if you want to be, so they, I've got a Lieutenant local highway patrol here. He wanted to be a home inspector. So. plug him into a local training, you know, technology center here, does his 90

day course and he's good to go. You know, so when he leaves, he knows exactly what he's going to do. Already have the company aligned with them, all the rest of this stuff. Right. So, you know, I've got a firefighter that's a part of our, our mentor circle. And he was, he was in the Murrah bombing, was forced retired in 2018. Is now a sales rep, a pretty senior sales rep for Bitcoin dot com. You know, so you can take a lot of your skill sets and you can apply

it to various different areas. You just need a structured way. And that's what that's that's where we fail. We fail as as agencies. We fail as states. We fail as unions to supply that structure for when we leave our service. why is it when I would say even more so the fire service, because, you know, we're firefighters and we're EMS and a lot of agencies too. So, I mean, a real Swiss army knife, and you throw in rope rescue and confined space and all these other specialties

on top of that. Why is it that when we walk out the back door, whether you're a cop, you're a firefighter, we think, well, I've got to do something with a halogen or a gun. Like, where does that myopic? Because, I mean, you think about it, teamwork, problem solving, working under pressure, all these skill sets that we have. But, you know, we're all we have that same. What is it about our journey through the profession that creates such a kind of blinkered view of our own skill

set? Because that's always how it's been done. Nobody is taking this on, James. Nobody in this country has taken this on. I can think of one other person. He's out of, he's out of Virginia, but I can only think of one other entity that's even touching this. And it's because it's all that we're, we're kind of the forgotten group, right? So we do our service. Thank you for your service. See you later. Have a good one. You're

off on your own. Right. And, but we haven't, you know, we die five to seven years on average across the United States, five to seven years after our service. Our mortality rate is 24 % higher than any other occupation in the United States. We die at 66 as opposed to 82, 85. And I've always said, just to jump in with that,

that's startling in itself. But if you think about, compare it to the community, you're talking about people that arguably are fitter and more mentally resilient than the average person, which makes those stats even worse. Because I would say a lot of us should be living a lot longer

than that. Absolutely. And a lot of it has to do with that ideology, that depression and anxiety, that fear, all the rest of stuff, those building blocks that then become part of our health issue, because our health issues, the top three that I mentioned earlier are cardiac oriented, cancer oriented and suicide. Those are the top three.

And when we don't when we don't off board. When we don't prep our people, what I call prep the battlefield, that's what we say in the military, prep the battlefield, which we are going to go into. When we leave this gate, it is a completely different battlefield we're going into. If we don't have that mindset and we're not prepared for it, then we are going to freaking fail. And it's asinine. And I've talked to a lot of different companies. in organizations and stuff like that.

And they go, we thought that would be part of your program. Nice. And it's, and it's absolutely, I spoke at a, spoke at a large fundraising breakfast in February, a lot of high -end type CEOs from various different banks and all the rest of this stuff. Some of them have, you know, relatives that are first responders. And for them to come up to me, absolutely petrified. They've got sons and daughters that are going, they're about to step into this world and you're giving us that

stat and nothing's being done. It, it just, it scares the shit out of them. Right. And so it's that, that pain that's there that they're feeling and they're going, all right, we're backing you, Jeff. We're coming. This is the thing that I talk about is so many of the problems you sound like, oh, you're always talking about things that are broken because they're so easily fixed. It's an educational piece in the front door saying this is what you're bringing in. So let's talk

about the mental health side. Let's not do an MMPI and check a box like, oh, yeah, we check to see if they're a crazy person. Let's say, hey, you're going to have some stuff in your bucket, your backpack, whatever metaphor you want to use. Let's start working through it. So that becomes a strength. And it's the same on the back. Let's start talking about that sense of, you know, loss of tribe and all these other things. Let's, you know, work on your fitness.

Yes, you're in the last year of your, that doesn't mean that you're just going to sit in a lazy boy. You actually want to work and be fitter, you know, because you're also going to be screened for whatever health insurance you're going to get. And you want to make sure that your premiums

are lower. So, I mean, there's so many. things of you know what you're doing there's so many solutions the work weeks the fitness standards all these different things that we can absolutely affect that will save numerous numerous lives and you know increase the quality of you know a hundred times that but if we just stick our head in the sand and ignoring it and say oh you're being negative if you bring it up it's like well you're just basically perfectly fine with losing

more men more men and women when they walk out the back door Yeah, and it drives me insane that we're just allowing this to happen. You know, one of the things that we've really started doing, James, is we've started going to the academies. And we're talking at the academies now where we're talking about, hey, listen, this is the shit that you're about to see. And if you are not ready for it, if you're not ready for it during and you're not ready to tackle it after.

then you are going to set yourself up for failure. So we really dive into that. And some of the feedback that we've got, especially from the younger officers in our academies, I just taught at the Oklahoma State Fire Association, their big museum there. And all of them came up and they were just like, God, we wish we'd had this shit when we were younger. You know, we wish we would have had this when we were coming to the academy. We wish we'd had this like every

two years in our in -service. You know, have this on a repeating cycle. Right. Because you say it once you retain maybe 10 percent of it. Right. So, you know, have it on repeat. If it's important, make sure it's part of your agency's culture. Right. And so the unions, the agencies, the counties, the states, all the rest is if this is. if this is an important side, because listen, when we leave, you know, they all look at money. When we leave, we are an economical

benefit to you. So allow us to survive a little bit longer. You know what I mean? Like, let's do something. You know, we can do things for your businesses. We are role models in your communities. We can be those guys that are on your councils or whatever it is, but we can also do a lot of good things for your community that bring in revenue, et cetera, et cetera, right? So, you know, we're just not lost causes and just thrown

out to the dust. You know, actually not lost causes, but just like you're on your own now. You got to figure it out on your own. You know, and I think that has been the mentality. And that's why. everybody goes to, I'm just going to guess I'm just going to be security or I'm going to do this. You know what I mean? There's no real, I mean, James, you ask people and I'm sure you, you got buddies years too. What are

you going to do when you're done? 90 % of them will say, I have no idea, no clue, you know, and that's, that's something that is a culture we have to change because if, if it were set up and this is, I'm kind of, Getting ahead of myself here, but we're trying to set it up to where this is going to be something that's part of the agency culture, the union culture, not just here in Oklahoma City, but we want it nationwide. We want it from California to Washington to Florida

to New York. And it's to set ourselves up during. Because we talk, it's called the thriving responder that we do during their in -service side. But then we also call it the beyond the badge. You know, looking, it's a four -day deep dive into literally figuring out what the hell you're going to do afterwards. And at least giving you opportunities. Letting us show you what that path looks like. It might not be completely clear 100%, but at least you have the resources to reach back out

to. right now these there are no resources there's nothing one thing i've talked about because i'm trying to really push for the firefighter work week to be standardized at 42 hours a week and the northeast has had it for a long time the rest of the country works you know basically the side of 56 hours And then we have this mandatory overtime, this recruitment crisis, there's all these vacancies. So now they're working like 80 -hour weeks every other week or even more

frequently. And the pushback of getting more rest and recovery between shifts, which aligns with PD, doctors, nurses, everyone else who saves lives, is, oh, if we give them more time off, they'll just work more. And I've always said, well, firstly, that's a really fucking arrogant thing to say about a human being when they're not at work. But secondly, when you actually, because in the fire service, we do have a period of time that is open where you can do something

else as well. Now, should you work in an ER overnight or a private ambulance company? Of course not. But now you're a personal trainer or you're a landscaper or you're, you know, whatever it is, you've got this side hustle. That's a good thing because we're kind of bridging what you're talking about. You've created another tribe, another identity, another purpose. And so now whatever it is that you're doing, God forbid, you lose

your job, you get fired, you get hurt. Now you have that thing to go to or you simply retire. What are you going to do, Jeff, when you retire? Well, I've already got my business that I built up. So I know what I'm going to do. That's what I'm going to do. So in my profession. That ends up not only being a second source of income,

a safety net, whatever it needs to be. And this is the kind of thing I'm saying, yeah, do something that's going to put you at home in the evening with your family and then in bed next to your partner. Don't do stuff that's going to keep you overnight. But this is an absolutely beautiful thing. Write a book, start a podcast, whatever it is that you want to do. And then you start realizing through your career. oh God, I'm so much more than just a cop and just a firefighter.

And I'm so damn proud to be those things, but it's not all of me. It's some of me. And again, don't get me wrong. I'm not also saying, yeah, if you're a real estate agent and you just go to the fire station for 24 hours and you keep working on your business, also no, no. When you're at a station, you're a firefighter and you should be all in on training and your fitness and everything

else and running calls. But having that second identity outside, I think that is also another great movement, especially in the fire service. You don't have to, but most of us have something that we love to do. You play in bars, you know, and you're a guitarist and a singer, whatever it is doing that other thing. I think there's so much benefit. They see it as, Oh, they can't work off duty. Like bullshit. Why not? He's a swim coach. Whatever it is, go do that thing.

Just be cognizant of making sure you get rest and recovery on those days off. You hang drywall, amazing. Just go home at five. Right. Yeah. Have some boundaries, right? As you were talking, we always talk about the three big reasons that we talk about having that purpose afterwards. is to elongate your life, give stability your home and repurpose you in the community you just served. And that just, that resonates across

the board, right? And it's so easy to fall into, oh me, oh, you know, that kind of thing and not do anything because that's been kind of the culture. It's almost a standard right now. It's just like, Jeff, figure it out on your own, buddy. Again, don't get me wrong, we're all big boys here, big girls, but at the same time, that's why those that are in uniform can't figure out what to do with these guys on the other side because they're not there yet. They can't say anything.

It's the ones that are over here on this other side that are... saying, Hey, you need to do this. And there's gotta be some reach back saying, Hey, prep yourself, you know, and, and, and coming in. So, you know, there's, there's a, I really do congratulate guys. I was actually having had lunch with one of our SWAT operators. He was, I was on the team with him for a while and he's 17 years in and he just took up ice hockey. He said, never, never a skate in his life. And he

started taking up ice hockey. And I said, and he goes, it was so nice to go do something that was not work related. It helped me in my head. It helped me in my spirit. It helped me in my being. It helped me be able to talk to my wife, you know, and being grounded with my kids and all the rest of that stuff. He goes, because so many of us just hone in on that professional side. that we go do the job and then we go do

the side job. And then the only friends that we have around us are the people that we work with and blah, blah, blah. You know what I mean? We're just so integrated, but we don't go and do anything outside, right? It's almost like there's a fear to do that. It's like, well, they don't know who we are. They don't know what we do, blah, blah, blah, right? So I can't talk to them, right? And don't get me wrong, for a

long time, I had a little bit of that. that ideal too but at the same time i started realizing that i had to have people outside of my workplace to communicate with i had to have you know different arenas for me to be involved in you know what i mean and so it was uh it's it's refreshing to hear those stories i wish there were more of them and you know i know i know the fire guys You know, they do take on a lot of different

type of skill sets just because of the way. Like here, I know Oklahoma City, I think they do 24 on and 72. I can't remember. No, I'm sorry, 48 on, 96 off on the fire side. Edmond does 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 24 off, and then four days off. So it's kind of interesting how. the dynamic is, um, in that rest work cycle, you know, um, you know, for us, we were working 10 hour shifts, you know, four days a week type deal. Um, but there was a lot of, a lot of overtime, a lot

of overtime. You were, you're, it wasn't mandatory, but you were extremely pressurized to, to stay over or to come in or whatever it was, whatever have you, you know what I mean? So. just because of the shortages. I think another thing, James, too, is, and I'm not trying to go off track here, but I think a lot of it is our retention. Our retention is just absolutely atrocious right there. There is no programs to retain people. And that's sad because that means that they are

not really invested in their people. They're invested for the current. They're not invested for the future. Right. And it might maybe the future is a core value or, you know, some sort of competency or something like that. But they are not actually invested. So one of the things that I proposed during and this kind of goes back to the physical fitness side was when you're

getting evaluations. Like you can't go if you can't pass a physical fitness test and you can't go to certain schools to help you with promotions, you're not allowed to go to X, Y, Z. Because you can't pass physical, right? So that would incentivize guys and gals to keep their shit wound tight, right? And, you know, if they can't promote or if they can't go to a certain licky -chewy type school or training or something like that, you know, maybe that'll keep them in the

gym. I hate to say that that's an incentive, you know, other than just your moral and virtues to keep you in the gym. But, you know, that's just something that, you know, thinking outside the box might be something like that to do. I don't know. I play around with that sometimes. Sorry, I kind of went all over the place there. No, no. It actually reminds me of Roger Shai, who's a chief in, I forget the name of the town now. It's got a weird name, but it's in Idaho.

And they actually give extra points in promotional tests when you max out physical tests. So I think that's phenomenal. And then they have jujitsu. They have very kind of advanced DTAC training. And that then attracts young people. I mean, I know that's from Anaheim. When I worked there, they had an amazing reputation. And they would lose a quarter of every probationary class by the end of the year. And so this is how you actually

attract the right kind of person. The Royal Navy, I'm sorry, the Royal Marines did this really well when I was young. They said that the ad campaign was 99 % of you need not apply. And so the right kind of person was like, oh, really? Hold my beer. And that's who you want stepping up. So when you raise the bar and you have fitness standards and you're known to have an academy that's a crucible in a measured, deliberate way. that is going to attract the right kind of people.

And that's going to keep the right kind of people. But the problem is just like you said, especially in the fire service, you've got these young people looking at us, you know, doing a Google search and like, wait a second, 56 hours a week. And then you get told you can't go home and they have divorce and cancer and suicides and, or I could be a welder. You know what I mean? And I can go X amount of hours and make this, you

know, two thirds of more of the money. And so this is the thing that we have a retention problem because we're not viewing our men and women as assets. And then we're not developing, developing them as human beings, physically, mentally, even emotionally. And so, yeah, we, you know, that, that term disposable heroes is right. Just use until they break. And then now just get another one, you know, his uniform off you go get on

that rig. So, yeah, I mean, yeah, literally you are a number, you have a badge number and that, that number is literally just transferred over. Yeah, exactly. Well, going back to the solutions, I don't want to be mindful of your time. For people listening, where can they find OnCall and any other things that you're doing at the moment? Yeah, so our website is OnCallProject

.com. There's various different tabs that are up there, but it really goes into a deep dive of what we do and how we do it, where we do it. There are on the events page, it'll tell you kind of where our training is and stuff. But, you know, primarily focused right now in the Oklahoma area. But as we as we grow, we've been asked to be part of different conferences to to go attend and bring our resources to them. You know, really, James, it's a it's an awareness

knowledge piece right now. You know, we're we're applying our courses here within the state of Oklahoma and hopefully here soon within the region from Kansas to Arkansas. down to Texas area here within the next year, year and a half. Our goal is to get our service out to every agency within the next five years. And we're doing that through various different processes and funding sources. You know, we're all on social media. So everything from LinkedIn to Instagram, Facebook, everything.

So we're all on that. And honestly, the best way. to contact us is to go to that website, hit the contact us. It goes directly to me. So I'll get that within 48 hours and get back a response to you. But, you know, I was just up in St. Louis at the Union Station up there, what's called the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association. We were one of the only nonprofits up there. And I tell you, James, the interest from Oregon to Florida to Rochester,

New York for this program was immense. I can't tell you our vendor table was very, very heavily occupied. This is something that is very unknown. It hasn't been tackled before. This is inspiring. I look at it as. Something that's much bigger than me. I just have the vision of where it needs to go and how it needs to get there. You know, we have a board of directors. It's a nonprofit. So, you know, we we're always looking for individuals to help source us and fund us to get our program

to where it needs to go. But, you know, we're all majority of us that are that are in this group. We're all first responders. We've been there, done that. Our mentor circle is full. prior police, EMS, firemen that are very successful in the private sector right now. Some of them are retired. Some are not doing anything or they've opened up their own LLC or something like that. But they're still very big advocates within the community and valued in that community. And that's

what we want to do. We want to make sure that our people are taken care of from... From the start all the way to the end of their life, they have given a lot to us. They've given a lot to our community and they deserve a structured, methodical education and guided pathway to off board into that private sector. Other than just being said, thank you for your service. See you on the other side. Absolutely. Well, I want to

say thank you so much. I mean, it's been such an interesting conversation from tornadoes to Berlin to the transition out and giving people the tools. So I want to thank you so much for being so generous with your time and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today. Well, James, I look forward to your future success. Look forward to maybe sometime if I'm in Florida, come see you. Or if you're in Oklahoma, do the same, my friend. We do have. A pretty interesting process

that's going on in downtown Oakland City. I'd love to be able to share that with you probably in about a year. But it's a build out that's extremely impressive. And hopefully it's going to be a model for the country. And I'd love for you to be a part of it. And I do appreciate you having me on today.