Jay Dawes (Strength Training, The Tactical Athlete and Longevity) - Episode 993

This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran owned and operated performance optimization company that I introduced recently as a sponsor on this show. Well, since then, I have actually been using my products and I've had incredible success. There was initial blood work that was extremely detailed and based on that, they offered supplementation. So I began taking DHEA, BPC 157 for inflammation based on the fact that I've been a stump man and martial artist and a firefighter my whole life.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show, revered strength and conditioning coach, athletic performance coordinator, co-founder and co-director of the OSU Tactical Fitness and Nutrition Lab and member of the OSU Fire Council, Jay Dawes.

Now, in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from his early life growing up on a farm, his journey into the world of athletics, training the collegiate athlete, his path into the first responder professions, training the tactical athlete, the importance of rest and recovery, sleep, exercise selection, be for fit equipment, and so much more. Now, before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment.

Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating. Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for others to find. And this is a free library of almost 1000 episodes now. So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them. So that being said, I introduce to you Jay Dawes. Enjoy.

Well, Jay, I want to start by saying two things. Firstly, thank you to Dan for making the connection. And secondly, I want to welcome you onto the Behind the Shield podcast today. Yeah, James, thank you so much. We're really, really excited to be here and get a chance to talk with you all. Well, this is a long time coming. There's some guests where names come up over and over and over again and certainly obviously in the strength and conditioning world, your name has many times.

So, very first question for you, where on planet Earth are we finding you today? I am sitting in Stillwater, Oklahoma, in my office at Oklahoma State University. So, beautiful. Well, we'll get to, you know, why you're there and obviously your amazing kind of interaction with the first responder professions, but I'd love to start the very beginning of your story. So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings.

Oh, wow. Yeah, so that's that's a really long story actually. But I'll try and give you that the paraphrase version. So, I was born in Oklahoma City and grew up in Guthrie, Oklahoma. So, Guthrie is a small town, you know, has roughly about 10 to 12,000 people in it. I grew up on a small farm out there, so about 160 acres. And so growing up, I did not know my father or that side of the family.

I was raised predominantly by my mother and my grandparents. And oh, wow, we're going to get into the deep stuff now. So basically, I think that that actually that upbringing really set the stage for a lot of stuff in my life, where I kind of always thought like I had to be a little bit better than the average person maybe to offset some of the start. But as a kid growing up with your grandparents, of course, they loved me and they wanted to treat me right. So they fed me a lot.

And so I was a little fat kid and about 12, 13 years old, I just started I fell in love with baseball. And that that was my thing. And I tried out for the junior high baseball team and all my buddies made it except for me. And I was just completely devastated. And at that stage, you know, I was pretty inconsolable for a bit. But then I'm like, all right, what do I need to do to get better?

And so, of course, in, you know, nineteen, what, eight, six, eighty seven, I picked up a muscle and fitness magazine because there was nothing else available and just started reading about, you know, nutrition and working out. And you're just trying to do whatever I could do to maybe get better. In addition to that, I called or my mother called on my behalf the high school baseball coach and asked if I could come down and work with them.

And so I went and met with him and he said, what do you want to do here? It's like, man, I just want to be around it. And obviously, I don't exactly know what I'm doing. So I want to kind of figure it out. And, you know, so, you know, thirteen years old, you know, I was down at the high school baseball field shagging fly balls and doing what all the older guys were needing me to do just to be kind of around it and to learn some stuff.

And pretty soon, I mean, I just kept showing up. And it's kind of like that old saying, you stand around the barbershop long enough to eventually get a haircut. Right. So eventually, you know, I throw batting practice at them like, why don't you jump in and do that? So, you know, they taught me some stuff. And so fast forward the next year, I mean, I grew about six inches was definitely didn't hurt.

But just the transformation that I made, you know, trying to eat healthy and working out was just huge. And so I ended up making making that team that the eighth grade team. But then also there was talk about me like potentially playing varsity and all that kind of stuff. So that's I mean, again, that's kind of a small snippet. But, you know, in short, I ended up played a couple of years in college.

You know, I was I was remarkably OK. I could kind of I could throw low 90s. I could hit pretty hard. So they they took a chance on me. I played third base. So basically, I was not the best feeler, but I was basically a meat shield at third base. So if you hit me with the ball, odds are I could probably still throw you out. So I had that going for me. But anyway, I got injured my freshman year, which caused me to transfer out to another university and then got injured there that year.

So it was my elbow that that kind of was the challenge. And at that point, you know, I think this is this probably the end of the road on that dream. And I was approached by our college sophomore coach at the time. And she said, hey, you know, I heard about your injury. Really sorry, but I think you could maybe come help our team with hitting. And I think you'd have some stuff to bring to the table that would be useful for us.

And I said, OK, cool. But I want to be the strength coach, too. And she's like, yeah, sure. That's great. And so that was super high. Yeah, that's really how it started. So I was a 20 year old strength coach at an N.A.I. school. And the school eventually hired me to be the. Oh, what was it? The. Basically, the physical fitness coordinator, which was basically I would work with all the athletes to help them improve performance.

But then any faculty, students or staff that wanted a tight tummy or tushy, I worked with them as well. So it was. It was a. So at that point, my degree was actually in business administration. And because I really didn't know what I wanted to do, I thought, man, it'd be cool to own a gym one day. That'd be that'd be pretty awesome. And then once I started doing the strength coach thing, I'm like, yeah, I think this is really where my heart's at.

And so, you know, back in the late 90s, the only programs that were like your hyper programs were like health, P.E. and rec. And which wasn't exactly what I wanted to do. So I took basically all the prerequisite courses I needed to transfer into Oklahoma State to do a master's degree in health and human performance. So my undergrad is actually business admin, which would would have probably technically been an exercise science emphasis.

But again, because it was hyper back then, I didn't I didn't want to take folk and social square dancing and volleyball. And I took physiology and anatomy instead, so I couldn't get the designation of a minor. But basically it laid the foundation for me to do kind of what I want to do in grad school. And so, yeah, then I came to Oklahoma State, did my master's and my Ph.D. here. And, you know, all the time I was doing independent personal training.

I was doing work with athletes more on a one on one basis versus like a group setting basis. And then teaching at the university and doing doing that. So that's kind of what the that's kind of where it started. Well, firstly, shagging fly balls means something completely different where I grew up. So that's weird hearing that. Sorry, that doesn't translate well, buddy. Really need to be more culturally confident. My bad. Well, going back to early life, a few things.

Firstly, I grew up on a farm, too, and I, you know, I've always been the what am I the ectomorph? Is that right? The skinny frame? It's been a while since I've used that word. So even and I guess there wasn't an abundance of food when I look back at my childhood either. But there was an abundance of activity and just movement is normal. Lifting is normal in a wrangling sheep and whatever it is you're doing. So what impact did the actual farm life have on your strength and conditioning?

Not the gym stuff, but your natural ability to move and your natural strength and endurance? Actually, hugely. So it's really funny. Like one of the so the first time I ever did a clean, I remember the coach going like, oh, wow, is this the first time you've ever done this? I'm like, well, yeah, but it's kind of like throwing hay bales. And it kind of was. And and like said, that connection like, oh, yeah.

So I think in addition to that, you know, I think by default we also I grew up with my cousins out by this farm. So they lived right next door to me on the next 40 acres. And so, you know, when we were done doing anything that we need to do to help, we go out and play all day. So it was literally one of those things where I mean, I remember in the summers like my feet being completely like stained green because we were running around out in the grass barefoot all day long.

And we had like an apple orchard where when the apples would fall, my cousin and I, we got trash can lids and went out there and basically had wars with one another, would throw apples at one another. It was awesome. But you know, sprint behind bushes and all kinds of stuff. So that's what's ironically enough. That's probably where I actually learned how to throw is out there doing doing that kind of stuff. But I think that was just the benefit of like having free play.

And in conjunction with some of the work related stuff that we did, it really it just set the stage for a movement foundation that I feel like it gave me a little bit of a leg up versus kids that maybe didn't have that same background. So and again, I always joke, I'm a pretty aggressively mediocre athlete. So that's not to say I'm very good. But that's just to say that there's at least some familiarity with movement.

So I had a guy on the show, Pasi Solberg, and he's originally from Finland, but he now is in Australia. But he tours around the world talking about the Finnish education system. And one of the big things that they focus on is play. And even to the point where, you know, if you give a kid a group of kids a ball, you allow them to make up their own game and their own rules, you know, because we come very stringent and rigid.

No, no, no, no, this was that was offside or whatever it is and the children playing. So what is your perception of recess play physical education in the states now? And where do you think we need to go to to kind of reverse this obesity and ill, not even a health, the lack of movement that we see is crippling our children today? Yeah, I mean, I don't want to say it's non-existent because that might be an overstatement. But I mean, it's it's definitely not what it was.

And I think, you know, just by default with, you know, I think it's amazing that we live in a time period where from a technological standpoint, we've advanced faster than any other time in history. But that's also created some some downstream challenges with movement and that free play aspect as well. Because I think, you know, kids are I mean, if you look at all the gadgets and devices, I mean, it's they are made to be enticing.

And, you know, unfortunately, that gets kids' attention is maybe more so than going out and being active. And, you know, and I don't want to say parents maybe not. Well, let me let me think carefully about this, but I don't want to overstate it. But I think, again, we live in a little bit different time frame where when I was a kid, I mean, we went outside, we ran all over the farm, whereas now probably pros and cons to it.

Kids may be a little bit more restricted in how much free play they get to have. And looking back, it's a miracle we didn't kill ourselves with some of the stuff we did. But, you know, so I'm not necessarily advocating for going to that extreme. But I think, you know, kids maybe don't have as much freedom as what they used to. And a lot of times the play becomes a very supervised and structured play.

And, you know, very, like you said, very much dictated by rules of governance with a game versus just the ability to move and explore movement and find creative solutions to motoric problems. And I think, you know, kind of if you look at the some of the some things that like the LTA model espouses to, which is really trying to get kids a good sampling of different activities and sports and integrating free play into it.

I think conceptually, it's a great model because it allows them the opportunity to explore movement and their body and try to put that in different contexts. And I don't at this stage of the game, I just don't think we get enough of that. You know, obviously, you know, with the pandemic a few years back, that that's I don't know that we've fully seen what the full impact of that's going to be yet.

As far as from a movement standpoint, one thing that we did see is like we did some research with our ROTC program here. So Army Reserve, and we did see that their overall experience level as far as weight room activity and just activity in general was significantly lower than what previous groups had been.

And I think, you know, one of the again, another downstream effect from that is like with the Army going to a test that's more reliant on strength and power and more multi-dimensional movements versus just, you know, muscular endurance and aerobic capacity, it kind of creates the perfect storm of a pretty big challenge when it all gets down to it. So I do I will say this, like I do think it opened. I do I do try to be an optimist about things.

And we actually talked about this before. I do think it opens up some opportunities, though. Right. So I think people who are in the strength conditioning profession, like this is an opportunity to help get younger athletes and kids the movement training that they just don't necessarily get in their daily life anymore.

And I think that's a way to help integrate free play into a more structured environment to make sure that they don't miss out on some of those critical critical windows of development that, you know, kids of previous generations may have been a little bit more had more accessible to them. What was your kind of experience through the pandemic? You've worked with high level sporting athletes, you know, you work a lot with the tactical athletes.

I'll give you mine first. So I'm not loading the question for sure. For me, right from the beginning, obviously, everyone was like, oh, my God, what is this? And everyone took it seriously. And then I think most of us that were in the medical slash strength conditioning world started to see, well, wait a second.

Everything you're telling people to do is kind of the opposite that we know makes people healthy. So for me, I think that the biggest disservice, aside from obviously the people that were lost because of, you know, usually pre existing conditions, was not addressing that.

You know, this is a two year captive audience on how we can really reverse everything from the mental health crisis, the obesity crisis, I mean, all these things that are plaguing the richest nation on earth, which makes no sense whatsoever. But coming out of it, I feel like nothing changed. And we actually got fatter and sicker after those two years than before.

So I think it's an absolute travesty that that was not only wasted, but calling in the question of the health of the nation and asking to improve it was actually heralded as heresy at that point. Right, right. Yeah, I mean, I can't say that I disagree. I think to your point, I think. And again, I hate to even own this, like looking back on it retrospectively, but at the beginning of the pandemic, I was really concerned. Now, keep in mind, like I was in Australia with a friend of mine.

So we were visiting professors at Bonn University. And, you know, we're sitting in our hotel room and all of a sudden it comes on that, you know, there's a case of this COVID. 45 minutes from where my house was in Oklahoma City. I'm like, what the heck? Like that's like that's right down the street.

And then all of a sudden, within like the hour, they closed the NHL season and then they canceled March Madness. And it's like, anytime you cancel pro sports and like college sports, you're like, all right, this is this is the real deal. Something's going on here. And so, I mean, I don't remember the exact window of time, but I mean, we were within days of the border shutting down in Australia.

So, I mean, the funny thing is I had to hop five planes to get back, you know, which were cramped, packed full and just like, again, not knowing what, I mean, because the way they were talking was going to be like Ebola. I'm like, what the heck? I thought it was going to be like outbreak, right? And then like, well, and so then, you know, immediately with the university, everybody panicked, like, okay, how do we address this?

And fortunately, I had enough like online background that I was able to flip the switch pretty quick and go to online and make sure that students were still getting kind of what they needed there. But, you know, at that time frame, everybody was very laissez faire with it, just like a, you know, we don't know what's going on. So, it's just kind of a, you know, just by any means necessary trying to give people some sense of normalcy.

But yeah, within the first two weeks, I mean, I hate to probably say it this way, but I was kind of living my best life, honestly. I mean, I was, so I was waking up in the morning. I'm like, dude, like, nobody's really expecting me to be anywhere. So, I'm going to wake up, get a workout. I'm going to go kayak. My son and I go ride mountain bikes.

We write research papers in the afternoon. I mean, it was funny, like me and my colleagues that year, we smashed out like close to 40 research papers, which is not even a reasonable total. So, in that regard, it was kind of great. But I think, you know, to your point, like I kind of looked at it as like, okay, how can I take this opportunity to work on some things that will help better me?

Just as an individual, you know, try to make the best out of a bad situation, which actually looking back, since we talked about the baseball thing, maybe a theme of my life, I don't know. But, you know, how do you make the best out of this situation with what it is? Because it was what it was. So, how do you capitalize on that?

But yeah, I think, like you said, fast forwarding from that, I mean, gosh, man, there's not getting into all the other political issues and all that kind of stuff that's around it. But I think there's a whole host of reasons why there's a lot of people that never fully left the pandemic. And like you said, from a mental health standpoint, I mean, we have had a lot of people that struggle with that.

I think one of the benefits that I had is during that time frame, I was still actively engaged in training and training other people. So, like with first responders, which was the primary group that I was dealing with at that point, they had to go to work anyway. You know, so it wasn't like it was one of those situations where they had the opportunity to say, you know, I think I'm going to stay home today.

It's like they had to be there. So a lot of that was trying to work around the different challenges, constraints of like, OK, how do we how do we navigate the situation to make sure that everybody's on board with us going in and actually still working with them? Because at first, I mean, it all got shut down. And then, you know, after a couple of weeks, people started to loosen up a little bit. But then obviously, we had to take certain precautions and things like that.

And, you know, I remember walking into the police department one day, we were supposed to do testing and assessment and they're like, yeah, we had an outbreak. So we got eight people down with COVID. I'm like, oh, OK, so they're obviously not showing up. So, I mean, I think that was like a lot of that time was just, you know, adaptability is being able to roll the punches. And I think it's just like anything in life, the people that tend to be more flexible adaptable tend to progress better.

Like I said, I saw it as an opportunity to make positive change. And I agree with you. I'm an incurable optimist. And even with the we'll get into this, the recruitment crisis with the fire service specifically, there is a beautiful opportunity to finally change the things that are broken and some departments are going to it. So there's a beginning of a paradigm shift there. But I feel like we did a disservice by not talking about, you know, the health of the nation and the progressive changes.

So, you know, for example, putting PE programs back in schools, you know, cooking real food in schools, just like they used to taking out all the soda machines, you know, giving local farmers subsidies to grow organic food rather than having this bottleneck of production that we had.

So there's some amazing opportunities. With that being said, if you're a king for a day, what would you do as far as strength conditioning and play in the school system so that we can start forging healthy young adults again, like we used to? Oh, wow. King for a day is a really tall order. So I think I mean, honestly, I know, like from a research perspective, even though it hasn't.

The research is inconclusive. I do think implementing something like a long term athlete development model into that system inherently makes complete sense. I mean, you know, that's things that you got to base information or base your actions off the best information available. And I think if you look at that model in general terms, it really does set a good foundation.

And I think just taking the research hat off intuitively as a coach, I mean, you're you're creating the building blocks for a healthy lifestyle in the long run. You know, obviously, that model started off like trying to create more podium competitors. But I love the fact that the downstream effect is creating a healthier society overall. And I think giving the students the opportunity to engage in physical activity on a daily basis in some way, shape or form.

I mean, it's funny when you look at like how much physical activity it takes just to stay healthy. It's actually kind of a shockingly low number. But like I said, it's just people just don't get it. You know, and I think that's the thing is like just giving them that opportunity to even get like 30 minutes a day. I mean, hours even better, but just 30 minutes a movement is so much better than just not doing anything.

And I will say this, I think from a societal standpoint, too, one of the other big challenges that I see is so I have a son that's 16 years old and he is wild about lacrosse, like loves it. But I also look at what they're asking him to do in in high school. I also look at what the expectations are as far as being involved in other activities and things like that to become a more well rounded person.

And, you know, I will say this, I probably one of the benefits of when we were growing up, I mean, we were probably a little bit more of a feral generation, I would say. Yeah, I mean, I think I will say this. I think we are under significantly less pressure and a lot of ways than kids today are because I mean, I'll be honest. I don't even know if I graduated high school with a three point average. I don't think I did. I think it was like two nine.

And for whatever reason, when I got to college, I went, you know, I need to try now. And then I was fine after that. But I think that was the whole thing is that, you know, during high school, like there just wasn't the same pressure to excel in everything that there was on the kids. Now, it's like, you know, and like I said, in some ways, I don't know if that's a parent issue, a society issue or, you know, just a just an issue. Right.

But I think it's one of those things where you're kind of going back in which said the mental and emotional anxiety and stress and everything else that causes. I think I think that's in part some of the big downstream issues that we're seeing right now as well. So I guess I guess and sorry, that was a really long, long answer and probably didn't really directly answer the question.

But I think one implement some kind of a foundational program and to make sure that people have the movement skills necessary to make sure that they can be active for life. Teach them proper strategies on, you know, eating healthy, taking care of themselves, functioning in the actual world.

And some of that probably even gets into like financial well-being and things that they just don't don't normally teach in school, but really giving them a foundation to have a healthy and successful lifestyle. And then hopefully that carries into adulthood and provides a good framework for them. Have you ever seen a documentary called The Motivation Factor? I have not.

See, this is what's so crazy that almost everyone I interview that's in the strength and conditioning world hasn't heard of it yet. It is so good and so pertinent. A guy called Doug Orchard directed it, I had him on the show, and it details the La Sierra High School PE program. And so when you see on social media every so often, you'll see a bunch of these young high schoolers, you know, and all the monkey bars and the parallel bars.

And, you know, it says this is the JFK fitness program from back in the day. It was a very, very progressive high school coach in California that basically worked with some Russian strength coaches, brought it back to the U.S. And they created this multi-tier PE program for the school. You had to do it in teams. The basic level, I forget what it was, like blue shorts. And you progressed up to, you know, each color short was that you're testing out of a level.

And so what ended up happening is if you wanted that, you know, your high school baseball, you know, basketball, football players, well, their strength conditioning was already done. And you look at the top tier kids. I mean, one of the things was like seven times up and down the pegboard. I think it was, I think it was, it wasn't even one. It was like two mile partner carry. I mean, just crazy stuff.

That was a top tier. So you just take that kid, you teach him how to swing and pitch, you know, all the other stuff is done. You know what I mean? The chess kid, the flute kid was still in really good shape and it was such an amazing program and it got disassembled in a lot of areas. And there was one school that did it. And lo and behold, COVID came. They shut it down. It was all outdoor.

They shut it down. And I don't think it's come back since. But I love that idea. Like you said, you just get in there. And the thing is with that also, they saw grades go up and they saw bullying go down because you're a team. Yeah. So I love that idea. And it's such a shame that most people have never even seen that documentary, you know, so they don't understand that this actually was a thing in certain parts of America back in the 60s.

All right. Well, I'm going to watch it now because that sounds amazing. But you know, but I think to your point, I mean, think about like what they do with high level executives and organizations where they have team building activities and all that. I mean, the whole point is trying to get people to play together so they can find some common ground and learn how to work together and learn how to interact with human beings on some level, even ones that they don't agree with.

And I think that makes absolute sense what we reduce and mitigate some of those things like bullying and so on and so forth. You also and when you were saying that it also made me hit on, you know, thinking about, you know, with all the pressure to especially pass standardized tests now, you know, so obviously that's what schools get evaluated on is, you know, how many kids they get to pass tests. So obviously they think the answer is to spend more time doing the stuff to get tests.

But, you know, kind of going back to my son, he is 100 percent like me. Like he is highly functioning ADHD. So it's one of those things where if he doesn't have some kind of an outlet during the day, like he's not going to be productive at all. You know, and I think that's the thing that, you know, to me, it actually retards the process by not giving them some free time to let their brain, you know,

slow down in certain areas and let their body actually move. And probably like, you know, in a lot of cases, you know, if you think, think back on when you have your best ideas, it's not normally when you're doing the research and study. It's when you separate from it. And a lot of times for me, it's like I'm on the step and I'm like, oh, well, that's how I solve that problem.

So it's like trying to shift that focus a little bit and give them the time to get rid of some of that additional energy that gets pinned up to where it does enter that process of actually be able to process and think and be creative in your problem solving. If you look at Finland, who are normally number one globally when it comes to education, there's a lot of play. There are shorter, you know, school days is more recess. And it's for that.

You look at, like you said, an office worker. What are we jonesing to do with you smoking yours going for your cigarette break? If you're not, I used to just do, you know, like an outside break, just go outside and walk around the building. So if we hate being cooped up as adults, why is it any different for children? Yeah, in fact, it's probably even worse because like from a maturity standpoint, at least we acknowledge and can understand.

Like, I know this is the stuff I'm supposed to do, but it's like, OK, for kids, like it's they're very concrete thinkers. They're not abstract. So all they know is like it sucks sitting down and I need to move. So what I think, you know, to your point, that leads to the downstream effect of, you know, obviously health conditions, obesity rates, medications that may or may not necessarily be necessary because, you know, again, with, you know, if you if you made me sit for six hours a day,

I would have to be so medicated to actually do that. There's no way. Absolutely. That's what I tell my students. Like, hey, look, if you see the door open, I'm here, but I'm probably going up in the hallway doing something because I just don't sit. Well, you mentioned your son, the other side of this conversation, and it was it was the back story for me coming from the UK after being here for a little bit. I started seeing a lot of very deconditioned adults, either side of 30 and beyond.

And over and over again, there'd be an Uncle Rico story attached to it. You know, I would have if it wasn't for my MCL, my, you know, labrum, whatever it is. And I'm like, what are they doing to their children in this country? Because back home, not saying that all British people running around with six packs is they're not. But cricket, you know, rugby, football, people play it way beyond school or university.

There's pub leagues and local leagues. And and so movement and play is still carried on by certainly when I was young. It might change now. But what I realize is there were there seemed to be a kind of philosophy where performance sometimes was at the expense of wellness of our young athletes. So talk to me about that, that kind of philosophy through your eyes. Oh, yeah. So it's yeah, it's a double edged sword. And that's what I will.

And actually, I tell my students all the time like sports aren't healthy, basically. I mean, you will get injured. It is a hundred percent injury rate. It's going to happen. It's just can we reduce the severity of it and can we get you back on the field on the court faster? But I think it is one of those things where, you know, well, it's a performance, you know, obviously to excel and have a.

Optimal level of performance wellness is imperative. Right. And I think, you know, 20 years ago, you know, when I was young and dumb in my 20s, I'm like, you got to go grind and you got to work as hard as you can only to realize like, oh, that's actually counterproductive in a lot of ways. You actually had to be strategic about it. I mean, work hard, but smart hard.

But I think that's that's the paradigm is when you look at sport, anytime you're chasing the upper limits of performance, the wellness is automatically it's going to be inversely related, you know, because it's one of those things where being strong is fantastic. Right. And I would advocate for you to be as strong as you can within whatever for whatever you need to do.

But I think that's the challenge that when you're looking at I am literally trying to move the heaviest load I can absolutely move. Then there's a cost that goes with that, where if I accept if I accept that goal, then I have to accept the risk that goes along with it, which means that my likelihood of injury goes up because I'm chasing the optimal performance.

You know, so if you're looking at from a wellness perspective that you're probably somewhere under the curve is probably going to be your best look for longevity. But again, you know, there's also that motivational aspect of it where people like to do extreme things. It's fun. But I think it just gets down to risk reward. You know, you have to figure out, okay, what level of risk am I willing to accept to achieve this specific goal and is that is that acceptable to me.

You know, I think my funny story I was telling my wife about her. So she decided on a couple of half marathons and she actually was she did amazing, did a great job. She had a great coach. I wrote her program. But most of that was her but but she did really well. And there was one night we're out on a walk.

And she goes, Yeah, you know, I don't think I want to do a marathon. I just think the half marathon is like, you know, a lot healthier and you know, to be healthy. That's a better distance. I'm like, well, yeah, it's not. I mean, it's not really about health. I mean, you got for a walk and get healthy. I mean, half marathons more about performance goal and you'll get healthier.

But your risk of injury does go up doing more distance than just if you're trying to be healthy. And she's what do you think I should do it? We like doing it right. She's like, Yeah, we should do it. You think I'm getting hurt. Oh, yeah, you're gonna get hurt. So but it's but it's like, again, it's just balancing that out and weighing it out. As far as you know, what you know, again, what risk reward? What am I? What am I willing to do to attain this specific outcome?

I'm running a marathon in Oklahoma in November. I've never wanted to run a marathon in my life, but I had a guest on who was a paramedic and her EMT partner tried to murder her. He shot her a beat with a metal bar and absolutely horrendous. But she survived, had massive TBI and she's an absolute, you know, warrior. And so she messaged me a few months ago and said, Hey, I'm thinking of doing a marathon. It's going to be partly in a chair. I think she's going to use her frame for part of it.

But she said, Will you come? And I'm like, Well, how can I say no to that? So I reward I am understanding that, you know, my old knees and everything are probably going to be suffering after. But now you put in the why now you now you gave me something worthy of that kind of, you know, repetition and overuse injury. Yeah. Well, I mean, and I think that's what it gives like the the reward of the struggle are usually commensurate, right? So the bigger reward, the greater the struggle.

And I think that's again, you got to kind of figure out what am I willing to do to achieve a certain level? Now, what about the multi-sport athlete? A lot of strength and conditioning coaches have come on because we obviously have, especially with baseball, the ball sports, you know, these kids that are groomed from really, really young.

They're doing the summer strength and conditioning camps that they're in travel ball. And then all of a sudden, you know, you've got 18 year olds with their arms hanging off. It sounds like the multi-sport athlete seems to be a lot more resilient physically and mentally. Is that what you're seeing to? Oh, man, it's a tricky question. So the short answer is yes.

The longer answer, and this is probably where I'm a classic overthinker, overanalyzer on certain things. And we've done some research studies on that. So looking at college athletes at all different levels like NCAA Division one to NAIA, for the most part, all of them were multi-sport athletes in high school for the most part. And they didn't specialize until usually later in their career.

Now, the argument, I mean, so here's the argument you get a lot is like, well, you know, this guy is an elite level athlete and he played four sports in high school. But then you also go look back like, OK, well, how many other people played four sports in high school and their accountants now? You know, so it's one of the things like it doesn't guarantee your success, but it certainly isn't going to hurt it.

I think also probably one of the big thing is like you get that multilateral development from different types of sports. So, you know, game strategies are slightly different. Movements are slightly different. You know, they can all be integrated into creating a better, bigger, motoric repository of movements that you can pull out when you need them. And I think that's that's really important.

But, yeah, I mean, as far as you know, with the early specialization, I think probably the bigger issue is anytime you look at repetitive type movements over time, then likelihood of injury is going to go up. That is one of the big things I struggle with my son playing lacrosse like year round now. He loves the sport. He doesn't want to play any other sports. But we have to offset that with what he does in the weight room and also offset that with how I train him as well.

So basically, if you're not going to get that in through multiple sports, then we have to augment that some other way to make sure you're still getting that same level of development. And I mean, in the way that the youth sports system is now, like I honestly it's just I don't want to say it's an abomination, but I just hate it because a lot of it is like with the travel aspects of it and with the cost.

And, you know, everything else that goes along with it, it makes it prohibitive for kids to participate in certain sports, which I think I mean, one, we're missing out on a ton of talent. And two, I just hate the fact that any kid would get denied the opportunity to participate in something that they want to do to stay physically active.

But yeah, I mean, to some extent, I mean, like even with some of the stuff we're doing now, it's like, well, hey, well, I hope you're going to be willing to take off the last half of the week of your job so you can go to this travel term. And I'm like, dude, like, come on now. So, yeah, I mean, I don't know if that even answered your question, James. I just went off like a complete diatribe and I kind of lost my complete train of thought.

But I think, you know, in general terms, yeah, I think the more the more opportunity you have to move in diverse ways, the better off you'll be. For me, like when I was a kid, I didn't actually play that many sports like baseball was my main sport. I played a little bit of football. But I think for me, like all that stuff we talked about being out on the farm, that's where I got that additional development and also completely by accident.

You know, and but I think that, again, is the benefit of free play is you kind of develop all those skills just out doing stuff that is unstructured and doesn't have rules and just letting kids kind of be kids. Someone made that point a while ago and it wasn't so much even the travel ball and the cost of being on a team, which is completely prohibitive for so many people. And also, I mean, I'm realizing now a lot of this travel ball and coaching is just it's a money grab.

I've always said how, for example, as a Florida team, let's say it's baseball. Why are they traveling all the way through the Carolinas and beyond? You telling me that in Florida, there aren't enough teams that can challenge your team? I think that's absolutely bullshit. And the answer is no. That's not true, but that's fine. But then the other thing was the actual facilities.

Like what I realized is we have beautiful facilities is one where I walk my dog and I get told off for walking my dog around the outside of this, which again, not allowing people to walk, you know, dogs and get them tired. So they're nice dogs is another whole conversation. But anyway, but these these manicured baseball fields and, you know, as a volleyball court that but you can only use it if you pay to use it.

So, yes, on the outside, like, wow, America's got so much, you know, so many access to recreation, but they really haven't. When I grew up, you know, we had playing fields where you just first come first serve, unless there was actually a league or something on there. And then a sports center that was extremely inexpensive to go and play five aside football badminton, you know, go swimming, use the weight room.

And I realized that, yeah, money is a big barrier to entry for a lot of young people when it comes to sports. Yeah, for sure. Well, and I think, you know, one of the other challenges we have now is, you know, obviously with things like NIL and all that.

So everybody sees this as a huge money making endeavor. If they can get their kids positioned at a certain point by the time they get to college, then, you know, by the time they get there, they can make more money than, you know, certainly than their professors will make. But, you know, I think that's that that drive. I mean, it's starting even earlier now. And, you know, I want to and I don't think I'll get in trouble for saying this, but I will say this.

If you look at like Oklahoma State in general, I think we have some amazing coaches, you know, Coach Gundy, you know, people have different opinions about him as a football coach and whatnot. But I will say this, like, I don't know that you're going to find a person who cares more about his athletes than that guy. Like, and he is 100% invested in his kids, which I have just the utmost respect for.

I think he is such a developmental coach. I think our teams have focused so much on that over the years that I kind of worry about, like, OK, you know, how how are we going to function under those circumstances? Because we may not have four years with the kid anymore. Right. So, you know, normally you get that four years to develop them and get them to peak. You know, they're they're junior, senior year, and they get that development.

But now, you know, kids get sad that they're not playing. You got to transfer portal and then you got kids who are making as much money as coaches are on some cases. You know, not not your head coaches, but you know, but it creates a whole different kind of animal. It really, really does. So I think, like you said, being kind of an optimist about it, I do think what we're going to see is a greater push for strength and addition coaches at the high school level.

Because, unfortunately, when they get to the college level, a lot of developmental skills is probably not going to be as, you know, prevalent because you're not going to have the time with the athletes that we used to have. Well, I want to get to the first responder community, but just one thing is I think it's really interesting. Firstly, a lot of us are parents. So this is the wellness of our children that we're talking about.

But secondly, there's a lot of parallels between sports and the tactical athlete, which is why we'll get into fitness standards and all that stuff in my profession in a moment. But when it comes to identity, you know, that great documentary, The Weight of Gold, talking about these people that were all sports and they did it ever since they were tiny.

And then they ended up on the podium and they're going to age out the next time or as an injury or, you know, they just started to dwindle, whatever it was. And I saw the exact same issue with if all you've ever thought of yourself is a swimmer, an Olympic swimmer, a champion, whatever it is, and that door closes. Now, all of a sudden, you know, there's that loss of tribe, obviously, with your team, but also that identity piece that so many first responders struggle with as well.

So what have you seen as far as the athlete, the sporting athlete? Yeah, well, first, all that. Yes, you're absolutely correct is, you know, I mean, when it's funny, like I think for me, like I wasn't one of those athletes. At first, I mean, I probably could have gone on played a little bit further than what I did. However, I played enough good athletes to realize, like, you know what, you probably aren't as good as you thought you're going to be.

And it's funny, like you said, like the further away you get from your career, the Uncle Rico things, like the further I've gotten away from my athletic career, the more I've realized how bad I actually was, not how good I actually was, because I've seen some really good athletes. I'm like, oh, yeah, you are. You are that great.

But yeah, I think that that is a, you know, I played with other athletes that when their career was over, I mean, I saw it like decimate marriages and relationships and, you know, because they just couldn't accept the fact that they hadn't moved on to that next step. And it does, it creates a crisis of self where you're like, OK, I have always been X and now that I'm not X, who am I? What am I? And I think that is a big challenge with that wellness aspect of it, right?

Is it developing the human being beyond what they do? Basically, focus on who they are, not what they are. And I think that is one of the challenges with sport is it all becomes about the performance and about the game. And a lot of times some of those underlying concepts of, you know, self discovery, understanding limits, working with the team, maybe get kind of lost in the shuffle a bit at the expense of the goal.

Right. I guess the question is like reframing the goal, like what are we really trying to do here? Obviously, we want to win, obviously. But there's a whole lot more to it than just, you know, the scoreboard. Now, I will say this, there's a lot of people who bet on games that would probably have a very different opinion.

But, you know, look at that, I think transferring that to the first responder community is the same thing. It's like when your whole identity has been, you know, I'm an officer, I'm a firefighter, I've been an operator, and then all of a sudden you're not, well then now what?

And I will say this, I think one of the reasons I gravitate to those communities, I think in general terms the people who are the best at those jobs tend to be all in people. And that's something that I've struggled with is like I'm an all in person.

So when you're all in and then something happens where you're not in anymore, now you have to kind of rediscover who you are and what that pathway is moving forward. And you're just to that end, like one of the things that we're actually working on here.

So one of my colleagues, Dr. Jill Joyce, we've been working on an athletic transition program. So basically when you exit your sport, you know, how do you stay active and healthy for life and how do you learn how to eat differently because you're not exerting the same level of physical efforts.

And I even have a class that I teach that is about exiting athletics where, you know, one of the assignments I give them is to write their obituary. And in that I said the only, you can only write one paragraph about your time as an athlete.

The other three paragraphs have to be your time after that. And it's actually been really cool because at first I'm like, I hope this isn't cheesy. But a lot of them have actually came back said, you know what, that actually helped me put in perspective some things that actually in the long run matter.

Because I think it was Wayne Gretzky who said, you know, at 40 years old in sports, I'm an old man, but in terms of the rest of the world, I'm still young. So I still got a lot of life ahead of me. So what do I do? And I think that's the thing with first responders is, you know, the job, you get some amazing people who are willing to literally give all to be in those professions a lot of times at the expense of theirself.

And, you know, the ones who are fortunate to get to the point to retirement and are able to potentially enjoy that, there is kind of a crisis of self in that. So, one of the things we are trying to work on is like with that athletic transition program is now transferring that to the first responder. So you know how you develop things like hobbies outside of, you know, what you do that that don't have anything to do with your actual job, right?

And in that regard too, is like, you know, hanging out with people who are not necessarily in your space. You know, so do you have friends that are not officers that are not firefighters, like, you know, just normal people. So, I forget what book it was. I have to go back and look at it. I sit on my shelf over here. But, you know, it's kind of a thing like if you're a police officer, you know, and, you know, and I actually did this in the last year one time I showed a picture of a scout leader.

And I was like, okay, what's your first thought? And it was like, pedophile. It's like, okay, the overall huge majority of scout leaders are not actually pedophiles. They're not. But the bad thing is like that's who you see because that's who you see. You know, it's like you're not hanging out with nice people on a daily basis. You see people who usually have nefarious intentions or, you know, so, so it skews your worldview.

It's like you're really trying to remember like how do we develop the whole person and, you know, remembering like, okay, this is a facet of my life, but it's not my life. And it's hard. And honestly, like, I'm as guilty of it as anybody because we get really wrapped up in what we do. And, you know, I love it sometimes to a fault. And it is hard to kind of step back a little bit. Yeah.

Well, I'm so glad I asked that. I mean, the parallel is so strong. And obviously, with you having a lens on both sides now made it even more, you know, important to hear that. Even from a personal perspective. So the farm that I grew up on. So recently in the last two years, we actually moved back out to that farm. And I completely refurbished the farmhouse that I grew up in.

And so, I mean, so we've got chickens and bunnies and cows and all that kind of stuff. And I don't think I realized how much I needed. I don't say that distraction, but I needed that other aspect in order to help balance me out. But since it's happened, like I'm a happier person. I am more well-rounded. I'm not not as grumpy because I can actually separate some of the work from, you know, the personal things that give me joy and happiness.

And that sounds super soft. I'll be 48 tomorrow. So maybe it's partially that too. Is maybe I'm just becoming an old guy. But I will say this just like time and I guess what you lack in physical quality as you get older, you gain in wisdom. Right. And I think having a good understanding of that is like, you know, taking the time for yourself to engage in some other things that are outside of your occupation. I mean, really does help make you better at everything, including your occupation.

I want to go to the first responders next, but just seeing as you brought us back to the farm for a second, I meant to ask you earlier. One thing that seems to be a kind of reoccurring theme, because obviously I talk about people's going to mental health journey a lot on here as well. When people are adopted or if one or both parents, you know, left, never showed up in the first place, whatever it is for a little child, subconsciously,

there's an element of why wasn't I good enough for that person to be in my life? Did you ever have that yourself? My whole career. So ironically enough, God, James, I hate that you brought that up. This is going to turn into like one of those episodes where all of a sudden I'm crying at the end of it. But feel free to cry away. You'd be one of many on the show. I promise. Perfect. So like, you know, like questions to ask. No. So honestly, that's what's driven my whole life.

So it was one of those things like with not having a father in my life, there was that feeling of abandonment. No question about it. And, you know, my grandfather was an amazing man and he was like dad to me. But it very much was that element of I'm I'm not good enough. And I always felt the need to prove that I was good enough or worthy, I guess. I mean, and honestly, and that's that's driven most of my life and the funny. Well, it's not funny, but the reality of it is it's always there. Right.

So it doesn't matter how old you are. There's always that element there. And I've gotten to the point where I've forgiven that whole situation because if you don't forgive it, then it's going to eat you up. And it is one of those situations where I think now, OK, how how terrible is it that somebody can choose not to be a part of their child's life? But then I go to like, OK, what kind of a terrible space did that person have to be in for that to happen?

You know, and and and ironically, recently I found out a whole lot more about that situation that dude is like showstopper stuff that can't even be unpacked on this. But it's it was really, really heavy. But I think all that to say this, like I've often told people like, OK, with my story, like, feel free to share it. Because I think good can come from really bad situations. Hopefully, I've done some good in the world and that's useful. But yeah, I mean, it is literally always there.

And I think that is the thing is like it's it's always made me I guess. I think because my situation came out of kind of a bad situation, I always felt like there was a need to provide more worth to the world to offset that. Right. So basically, like it it was a not great situation. So can I provide more value to show that, you know, it's a good thing he was actually here?

It's really interesting because almost everyone that comes on the show, especially if there's been an element of trauma, you can go back to that next generation, next generation, which is why my latest book, there's a firefighter modern day. But it goes back two generations for that very point to kind of storytell. And there's one of two paths it can take. You know, that then next child can either do exactly the same thing as the father or the mother before them.

Or they can hopefully through mentorship and whatever positive experiences your grandparents, for example, they can then be able to kind of process through the anger and pain side and be determined then to make sure that that's not passed on to their children. So what how did that affect your parents? Oh, it had a huge impact on it.

I mean, so that was the one thing is like, you know, I literally from the time I was a small kid, I like there will never be a day that my kids know I don't love them and support them. Period. And I mean, I think that early on conscious decision obviously shaped a lot of who I am. And like I said, you know, that was the one thing is like I was in a very fortunate situation where I had people around me that love me. No question about it.

But yeah, I mean, it is one of those things where you go back to like, I think with my kids. I think they understand that situation. And I think they. I mean, honestly, my kids are amazing human beings to be probably largely because of my wife. But but I think just their capacity is so much greater for empathy and love and caring than probably what mine was at that point. Because, like I said, like you said, like that kind of stuff, it creates anger like a lot.

And, you know, underneath everything I had done for a very long time, probably at the core of it was a lot of anger. You know, and again, always proving that I had to be better and I had to do more and had to be the best at what I did. And I mean, that was the things like, you know, when I was a kid, I knew I was going to get a Ph.D. I had no idea what the heck I was going to get it in. But I knew like, OK, that's that's going the distance.

I'm going the distance because that's that's what I need to do to show that. Fortunately, it worked out. I actually like my job. But yeah, I mean, it is it is one of those things where it changes that whole framework of how you want to make sure that. Well, I will say that here's the irony of it is, you know, if you've looked at some work like by Gladwell and all that, like, you know, looking at kids. So for me, like I was always incredibly driven for those reasons.

I look at my kids, they didn't quite have that same reason to be driven. So there is part of it's like, OK, and they're not they're all very ambitious. But it's one of those things you always want to say, OK, how is that going to play out? You know, what's going to be your motivating factors and how's that going to work? But yeah, in short, I'm sorry, I'm like often a diatribe now. But yeah, I mean, I think that is obviously it's affected my parenting.

I think my big thing is like my kids will always know I support them no matter what. And you know what? If you want to go be an elite level athlete, that's awesome. If you want to go be a violin player, that's amazing. If you want to be a really good accountant, that's just the best. Absolutely. Yeah, I think this is the conversation we need to hear is a lot of kind of judgmental rhetoric.

The problem is, there's all these broken homes and if people were just good patricians and had a nuclear family, then the world would be amazing. It's like, well, that sounds utopic, but that's not the real world. There's generations of trauma and mom and dad may have just not been able to cope. They may be in prison, they may be dead, they may be struggling with addiction. But it's on us, like our generation.

And then the younger ones behind us can actually do the work finally and therefore stop that and be and show show our children. It might be a second marriage, but show your children what a loving household should look like. And hopefully their generation will be the first one. As you said, they may not have that edge in competition, but that pales in comparison to feeling safe, secure and loved.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think, you know, and again, I definitely have strong opinions, like you said about it. What are the best environments to set you up for the best likelihood for success? You know, and you know, obviously that utopian environment is hands down, it's probably your best environment, right? I mean, that's what society was structured around. All successful societies do have that basic structure. However, that's not the reality that most of us deal with.

Right. So I think in lieu of that, I don't want to say it's what's the better bad option. But how how do you again, how do you bring good from a situation that may not be ideal? Absolutely. All right. Well, that was a that was an hour of amazing conversations. We'll get to the first. I feel like I'm like my counseling session now, buddy. I'm sorry. People say that. So there you go. Talk to me then. So you're in this sporting space for a long time.

Walk me through your introduction to the first responder community and then let's we can then start unpacking, you know, all the all things tactical athlete. Yeah, for sure. It was a complete right place at the right time. So back in 2007, I got hired to be the education director for the National Strength Conditioning Association. And a good friend of mine, Mark Stevenson, was the Human Performance Center director there.

And at that point, we've been doing some work with the Colorado Springs SWAT team and 10th Group Special Operations down at the NSCA. And one day, Mark came in and said, man, I think this could actually be a full program. And so basically, that was kind of where the tactical strength conditioning program was born. And I've told the story before, but at first, when we pitched the idea, the NSCA actually was not super keen on it.

And actually, for a very good reason, they were trying to stay mission centric, which I mean, that's what that's what you do. So they were in the right to question it. And they said, well, you know, these aren't athletes. And that's really what we're focused on. And so, of course, we came back. I was like, well, hang on. These are tactical athletes. And like, oh, well, that's great then. And so from there, you know, it was just kind of the launching pad for the whole program and the space.

And, you know, I when I left the NSCA in 2010, I moved out of Corpus Christi, Texas for about three years and was really, really fortunate. I got to work with the Corpus Christi Police Department down there and just some amazing people and officers. And, you know, I just call them up one day and just said, hey, I'm here to help. What can I do?

And that ended up with me starting to work with their academy a little bit and helping out down there and, you know, helping with program design and kind of, you know, letting whatever expertise I could lend to that. And then when I moved away, I moved back to Colorado Springs and went to work at the University of Colorado, Colorado Springs.

And while I was there, worked with the Colorado Springs Fire Department a little bit with their training academy, did some more on the research side with 10th Group, not really boots on the ground training stuff. And then an awful lot with the Colorado State Patrol, mostly on the research side with those folks, too, which is kind of a funny story. So good friend of mine, Ryan Holtz. So there was somebody from Corpus Christi that I had trained to go to FBI Academy.

And when I moved to Colorado, he had a friend at the Colorado State Patrol. So he sends my name along, said, hey, this guy has been great. He'll help you guys out a lot. So Ryan was in charge of wellness. And so they said, hey, call this guy. And he said, yeah, he goes, honestly, it sat on my desk for about six months. And I'm like, yeah, I probably better call this guy just to keep everybody off my back.

And we just hit it off. And so that started, you know, about a six year process of doing a lot of just a ton of research within their group. And originally, it started out with trying to help deliver training programs to over 700 officers in the state of Colorado, like literally spread out all over the state to all of a sudden, we want to try and create a validated fitness test for both our incoming officers and our cadets. And so just just an amazing experience there.

And so did that for about six years. And then once I moved to Oklahoma, you know, my concern was like, man, I really hope I can still work in the populations because that's where my heart's at. And again, random chance. I ran into a officer via a friend who basically had just gotten injured. So he was a SWAT officer and he had just made the instructor staff on the Stillwater Police Department.

And they go, oh, one of these on task with this fitness. So it was literally again, just I don't know if it's dumb luck or divine intervention or both or what. But but just kind of landed in the right places to do that kind of stuff. But but yeah, I mean, so for the last, I mean, gosh, going on 12, 15 years now, I mean, majority of what I do now is tactical. What were some of the surprises that you had, if any, when you first came across these populations?

Because I think when you think about firefighters, for example, everyone thinks about a lot of people think about the calendars that were all, you know, shredded with six pack and everything. But then you look at the reality and the lack of standards in some departments, it can be very far from a physically able, well rested and recovered group of men and women that are able to just go from zero to 100, the drop of a hat. Yeah, zero to hero, basically. Right. Yeah.

Well, I think even though I'm very sold on the tactical athlete concept, you learn pretty quickly, like not everybody's athletic. In fact, that's more the anomaly than the norm. You know, and that was the one thing that when we tried to sell that concept, it wasn't that we necessarily thought that somebody was a super athlete, but it's like you have to do physically demanding things like athletes, you need to prioritize your training, your nutrition, your recovery like an athlete.

So I think in the past, you know, I've had a lot of people want to get into kind of clever debates about really tactical athletes and, you know, want to kind of bicker about that point. It's like the bigger point is like you need to take care of yourself in a similar manner. I am certainly not saying everybody's an athlete. But with that, I think that was one big thing. I think the other part of it was recognizing that fitness was not as important to everybody in that space.

I don't want to say it was kind of a shock because I wouldn't say it was a shock, but about how much some people don't care about it was kind of shocking. So because I again, I don't do the job. I've gone through a lot of the trainings just so I can understand it and get a better feel for what what people in that space have to do.

But I definitely do not do the job. But I know for me, like if I literally was worried about my life being on the line every day, I would put my fitness at maybe a little bit higher value than what a lot of people do. And again, I don't know if that's a complacency thing or it's probably similar to like when people smoke.

You know, it's the hey, I know it's not good for me, but if it happens, it happens or it's not going to happen to me or you know, maybe I don't want to say denial, but maybe a little bit of that as well. I think those were some pretty big surprises. I think another one was just how how nefarious a connotation it was to do any kind of job performance testing.

So crazy. It is. I mean, so this is the funny thing is like I have vacillate on this for years now about trying to find what is the minimum standard to be job proficient and the reality of it's just a really hard number to get to. You know, I mean, it'd be easy to say like, hey, here's our the best of our best and let's go get them. But as soon as you start, you know, throwing in things like employment law as far as, you know, you're not the best at your job.

But can you still do your job? Well, technically, yes. You know, it gets really, really problematic. And, you know, and I think in a lot of ways, what what I've tried to do is say, look, to have the best opportunity to do these things. Well, I mean, whatever the task may be, these are profiles of people who seem to do reasonably well. Like, I mean, you can do X number of shuttle runs and push ups and sit ups and yada, yada, yada. These people tend to do better. And I will.

This is another thing. The push up there that is such there's such an affairs connotation that goes around with the push up as far as well. This doesn't tell me a thing about the job. And it really doesn't. But I will say this. It is one of the best predictors for almost every occupational task that we do. And it has nothing to do with the fact that it's a push up. It's just the fact that more fit people do more push ups.

You know, so it's one of those things where if you can't have the actual measure as a surrogate measure, I can tell you in general terms, if you're a more fit human being, you're probably do better at all these other things by default. So I will say this. I'm not going on record and saying that everybody needs to be doing push ups. It's not what I meant. But I will say this is like, you know, looking at the amount of debate that circles that is just awesome.

I feel like the pushback against this and, you know, I hear it all the time. Oh, they're going to try and take our jobs. Well, yeah, the fire service is the perfect example. If you take you go to fire academy in Florida, the standards that you'll meet and are called minimum standards, as we call us certification. So that is the least shit you should be your whole life. They've laid it out for you at the fucking front door.

And so then, you know, what's what's interesting is I've had a lot of conversations and even in departments, I will do like a max, you know, vertical jump and a deadlift and all. It's like time out. We have a hose that's a standard weight. We have a dummy. You can you can make it the average human being, even though it's probably going to be way too light. You know, we have ladders that doesn't the ladder doesn't care if you're gay, straight, black, white, male, female.

You have to carry. So we have this standardized thing. So we don't have to worry about creating anything. We have a thing called the CPAT, which is quite good. We've got a fire sled. One of my friends created that company. They simulate again, you're pushing hose, pulling, you know, all the things and you standardize it because in our profession and I think one of the real aha moments to me was the ocean lifeguards that I had on the show.

I was a lifeguard, not in the ocean, but an open water for years back in the day. You either can or you can't. You take your recertification, which is toes and swims and drags and all the things. And if you don't pass, you're not a lifeguard anymore. It's super simple. So asking someone to move the implements that we would have to do. And I know it's harder in law enforcement because you have, you know, grappling.

You're going to have to have, you know, pursuits. You're going to have to all these things. But you could, you know, easily come up with that. Getting away from the gym and putting it into just simple moving inanimate objects like we have to.

Now, to me, that is your standard. So if you're pushing against that, you're not only fighting our ability to perform, but you're actually detrimental as far as our longevity in our career, because the more you allow us to become deconditioned, the higher chance there is of getting disease. Absolutely. Well, and this is the to your point. Again, I think the job simulation tasks are always going to be probably the best option because that's the actual job.

So it's like specificity of training. Like it is what it is. You can't do it. Obviously, a push up, a set up, a vertical jump, they're all surrogate measures to determine or predict how you're going to do on those tests. So obviously, the closer you get to the test, the better you're going to be. The big, big challenge for me become and I use this example a lot because this was actually a situation we had is like, so if you're doing casualty extraction, right.

So if I've got to get a rescue randy or a dummy from point A to point B, right. So how far do I need to drag them to be job proficient? How much does it need to weigh? And then the biggest thing is like how much time is acceptable. And that's where it gets like super problematic because we did we did one assessment with an agency one time where we had we had them drag a 225 pound dummy.

Eight point five four meters. And the reason that we picked it is because we said, hey, if we're sitting in court, I've got to be able to justify the load, the distance and the time. And so if you look at the average officer for this agency, they weigh 205 pounds. So if you add all the gear, it was about 225 and they hated me at first because they were dragging 120 pound dummy before.

And so, OK, it's reasonable to assume that if you're in a bad situation, you may have to pull a colleague to safety. So 225 is we feel is reasonable. And the good thing about it was like once we explained the rationale, they didn't like it, but they got it right. Yeah, because the 120 is a Kenyan marathon runner. This doesn't represent exactly. It's a small child, maybe a very small woman at best. Right. And so the other aspect of that was the distance.

And so because this was a highway patrol agency, we're like, OK, it is eight point five four meters from the median of the intersection to the shoulder of the road. So I can defend that. OK, if you're out on a highway and somebody goes down in the middle of the intersection, you've got to be able to get the shoulder for safety. So I felt really good about that. And then we got down to the time part.

So we had four subject matter experts, so all officers, rate over 70 people dragging this dummy that distance and everything from three point six seconds to 18.4 seconds passed. So it's like, well, congratulations. Like nobody failed. So I don't know that you really even need a standard here. So it's like. So that was the thing is like in order to set that minimum standard, somebody's got to be bad, I guess.

So somebody's got to win. Somebody's got to lose. Once I know what's not acceptable, it's easy math. I mean, that's not a problem. But they do it on a real freeway because I think the times have been a lot shorter if they did it. Well, we did. Right. Exactly. So what's called motivation. So actually, we actually looked at that and took a coefficient of friction was actually one of the things that we were worried about.

So we had him drag him on a carpet versus like a hardwood floor. I mean, it's not perfect, but it's better because at least you're going to get some drag from it. So, yeah, I mean, so like, yeah, little things like that. I mean, it's super pathetic. But, you know, the challenge is, and I told them all that, hey, someday we're all going to be sitting in the court somewhere because somebody didn't like what we said.

And we've got to be able to defend why we did it. Not just we chose 22 push ups because that's how many the chief could do because they don't like that. So either there's got to be a dialed in reason. And also keep in mind at that point, we may not win. Like they may not like what we said. But, you know, the fact that we're going through so much rigor to try to validate this process is a lot better look than, you know, Dr. J said, you know, 10 seconds was good.

You know, so it's the validation process is it's a tricky business and there's no guarantee. When I first moved to America, I said this on here a few times, I was in a hotel and there was, you know, back in the day, you had the yellow pages and the white pages. And I was lying on this bed and they were kind of sideways to me and there was a big portion of it, like a third of the book, quarter of the book.

That was a different color from the edge, the pages that they kind of marked him. And so I just, you know, bored and kind of thinking, oh, that must be doctors. So I open it up. It was lawyers. Yeah. The white pages. And this is the problem. The solution needs to be the solution needs to be resolved.

Okay. Take a standard and say, we'll stand behind it so that now we can hold our people accountable. And again, being very clear, you don't just enact this and then say anyone who can't meet is fired. You have to have then the strength of conditioning on ramp for the people who are deconditioned and get them to that standard in, you know, one, two, three years, whatever it is.

But this whole fear of litigation, you know, this paralysis by analysis is where we have to be courageous and say, look, this is it. This is it. This is going to create a higher level of performance. It's going to stop our police officers being murdered in the numbers that they are. It's going to be a deterrent to a lot of these perpetrators when they see a fit officer, they're less likely to even go hands on in the first place.

And it's going to allow our people to retire healthily and spend time with their kids and grandkids. But all this cowardly avoidance of the subject because, oh, what if it goes to court? We need to fix that. Pick one. Like you said, make it work related. This is the thing about the firefighter thing. You can't tell me it's not fair that you have to put a ladder up or drag it down or advance a hose or climb stairs with gear on. That's what we have to do.

So if you can't, guess what? That's on you. You allowed yourself to get to this point. We also need to look at the work environment to make sure that, you know, it's it's set up for you to thrive, which is another conversation we'll get to in a minute. But those things together, it's not a department problem. It's a you problem. Yeah. Well, I think with that being said, it becomes very easy if it's pass fail like you can or can't do it.

So if we say, hey, you got to be able to lift 225 pounds and you can't lift it, that's easy. The problem becomes like kind of like what you're saying is like, OK, if I'm going to climb a flight of stairs in full kit gear and all that, what's an acceptable right to do that? And I'm not. And I think that's the thing is like we have to come up with something that's reasonable as far as that goes.

And again, I don't know what that number is because I'm not a firefighter. So I think that's where the challenge becomes like, I mean, I can tell you what I think is good, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. And I think the other problem you see with a lot of validation studies is people immediately go to the average and they OK, one standard deviation this way or that way.

We're willing to accept that. Well, the problem with it is like you could be well outside of that and still be able to do the job. Now, are you doing it as well? Probably not. But if you can technically still do the job, you got to accept it. So I think I think that's what it gets down to is like, what's your minimum standard? But I mean, I usually like to focus on like, OK, to be really good at your job. You know, these are the things that are going to make you exceptional at it.

Now, again, unfortunately, a lot of people have that. What's the minimum threshold thought process and not like how can I be the best I can be? But I will say I do understand why it's problematic. I do understand why agencies may be concerned about litigation. It's not fun. Nobody wants to go through that. It's terrible. But I will say this.

I guess my mindset has always been like, man, I would much rather get sued for having a higher standard or having a standard versus, you know, God forbid, somebody out in the community dies because somebody could do the job. Like to me, it's a way better look to go. Look, we were holding to a higher standard than it is. Hey, we knew this person really couldn't do the job or we didn't feel like they could.

But we didn't want to get sued. We let it happen anyway. And, you know, now somebody died because of it. Absolutely. We also you're always going to have those anomalies and they can't drive everything forward as well. I mean, there were people that, you know, died of covid that seemed incredibly healthy, that were triathletes or whatever.

But obviously there was a, you know, some sort of deficiency physiologically that they had this extreme results, extreme reaction to this virus when most people didn't. But you can't then make that one case, you know, tar and feather everyone with the same brush. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, in a lot of times, I think, you know, agencies take the mindset like it's better to not know. Otherwise, now, now we have to do something about it, you know, and that's that's not great.

Look, but, you know, I again, I think that like to your point, we're talking about what has surprised you. I think that's some of the stuff that surprised me is just, you know, every everything has politics associated with it, you know, every profession. But I think, you know, some of the political stuff, especially surrounding fitness is is very interesting.

So that was obviously like a standardized annual testing. Talk to me about what you saw as far as maybe the way some of these tactical athletes were being coached and what which kind of philosophies you brought to some of these agencies that you work with.

Yeah, so I think, you know, one of the big challenges that we've seen and I want to say we just collectively with my students and the different colleagues that I work with is whenever we go into an agency, you know, a lot of times there's kind of a kind of that one size fits all training approach. So which I mean, you know, if you look at like, you know, traditional military, it's, you know, mostly calisthenic exercises, not a lot of equipment and usually because you got large numbers.

So large numbers, not much equipment. So you kind of got to do the best you can with what you got. So it gravitates very much to everybody does the same workout. And in a lot of cases, you know, what we've seen is fit people may actually get less fit in certain areas. And unfit people may get overtrained. And then you kind of the only group that really gets what the need is in the middle. So on average, you normally see the average go up for everything because that middle group skews it.

But you'll actually see the strong people and powerful people maybe even reduce performance in some aspects. And then walking into training academies, especially police and fire is there is a tendency for post-test assessments to see reductions in their overall power levels. Not you. Strength usually is actually pretty decent. You might see small reductions in strength, definitely reductions in power.

And as far as muscular endurance and aerobic fitness, they all go off the chart because I read somewhere that if you train for certain things, you tend to get them specificity. So that's what ends up happening because they're so skewed toward muscular endurance and aerobic fitness. Everybody gets better at that, at least at some level, if they don't break the unfit people.

But you use it at the expense of other things that actually may be more useful on the job. So if you take a law enforcement officer, particularly, it's kind of a strength power job. Now, granted, you've got to be a little bit of a decathlete, no question about it. But it's very anaerobic driven. So it's not really a good look to lose power, to lose speed, especially now I'm going to throw you under load. And that's going to make it even more of a challenge.

So in general, that's kind of what we see is like it's the one size fits all training approach. It's completely understandable when you're under resourced, no question about it. But one of the things that we've really tried to advocate for is a little bit more of an ability based training approach. So basically for every exercise that we have, we'll try and kind of have like, here's a level up, here's a level down, and here's like the target activity.

And so when if I'm working with them directly hands on, I will sometimes switch people's like, hey, I want you to add this modification. I'd like to see you do this. I'll be on usually I frame it from the standpoint of like, hey, do me a favor. I think this is going to work better for you. Let's see you do that versus that was rubbish. And, you know, it's like poison to my eyes. I'd never say that.

It depends on who the person is, I might say it, but only if they have a good sense of humor. But yeah, I mean, it really is like, you know, trying to tweak and modify things specifically for them to make sure that they're getting the most out of it. We were connected by Dan Cowan, who is obviously part of BeaverFit. I had Alex and Matt on the show, the founders of the BeaverFit USA. What really impressed me is funny, we talk about TSAC, that's where I first saw them.

It was a great conference that they had every year. And a lot of people from there came on the show, you know, after I met them in the conference. Great crew. Yeah, absolutely. But I remember seeing BeaverFit and it was obviously a big shipping container and they had work out stuff outside. Oh, that's kind of cool, you know, for the military. But it was only when I interviewed Tom Beaver and then Alex and Matt, I said Matt, Mike.

A while later that I realized that they have so many solutions to the legitimate issues that some police and fire departments have. So when you have, for example, the footlocker, say you're an FDNY, you know, you don't have a gym, you know, probably, or you might have a corner somewhere, but they've got such limited space. But to be able to roll a footlocker out that opens up into a squat rack and a pull-up bar and, you know, a wallball target and all the things that they do was genius.

And then some of the mobile units where, you know, you've got a department where maybe the PT is going to go station to station, set up a workout for the crew or do the testing, as we said. So talk to me about BeaverFit and the tactical population as far as, you know, what you like about it. Yeah, for sure. And I will tell you guys, it's like I don't get a dime from BeaverFit unless they'd like to start paying me, which would be awesome.

We do have one of their trailers as well. And so we did that because from a research perspective for me at the university, it doesn't make sense trying to get first responders to come to me because it makes a whole lot more sense to go to where they're at. So BeaverFit really helped us come up with a solution to take our testing on the road and to be accessible for them. So that first and foremost, that was a huge, huge blessing to have that connection with them.

But yeah, to your point, I mean, with the foot lockers and they have a product called HitchFit, which actually will hook up to the back of a truck and do that. Now, the only knock I've heard is like, oh, this only goes up to 500 pounds of weight. I'm like, I think you'll be fine. So it's like, you know, it's like, trust me, if that's your biggest complaint that you're going to adjust, it'll be okay.

But, you know, I think looking at those, I mean, it gives you a usable solution in where you have a space constrained environment. All right. And the thing that I do like about is like, once you're done with it, you can pick it a lot, put it away. It doesn't impede the space at all, because I mean, that's the one thing, you know, we're going to all the different agencies.

I mean, you have some that will rival world class sports facilities and then you'll have others that are literally no bigger than the size of our walk-in closet. And it's got a Smith machine in the corner and a couple of jump ropes draped around it. You know, it's really interesting the diversity, I guess, in the different access to facilities and equipment and things like that that people have.

But yeah, I'm a big fan of BeaverFit, because I do think they have a lot of really, really good solutions when space and, you know, things like that are a constraint. What impressed me as well, if you think about a lot of fire departments do have a little bit of space on the back apron. They may not even have it in the building, but they're not only their bars and their racks, but also their equipment. It can sit anywhere. I mean, they used to deploy into the desert.

They used to deploy. They have rigs on battleships, so they're, you know, salt water. So this is the other thing is a lot of times. And the reason why I'm so passionate about this, I see really fired up firefighters, you know, all but beg for fitness equipment. They get given a budget, then they go to the low bid. Then a year later, that stuff's falling apart. You know, so it's a false economy versus, you know, some of this stuff that you can literally leave outside.

You can leave in the bay. I mean, obviously, you know, don't try not to get carcinogens on it, but you can be in places that are, you know, not gym conditions. Like, for example, Sauron X, another beautiful company, but they're very much focused on indoor, you know, college training spaces. The resilience of the Beaver Fit gear means you can leave it out. So you get a call is fine. You get a middle of a rainstorm.

Don't worry. It's been on a battleship. It'll be fine. And even in Miami Beach, they've got lockers down there. I mean, that's all sand. And I've used the stuff down there. So this is the other part is you can leave it anywhere with most of the gym equipment. You just can't. Yeah, no, I don't think that's a cool thing. I mean, and honestly, like it is the equipment so cool.

I mean, there is definitely a cool factor that goes along with it. Right. So we roll in with our trailer and all of a sudden I can pop two squat racks out the side. I mean, people get excited about that. It's fun. Right. Absolutely. Well, what about kind of implements? One thing this is fire specific. I did CrossFit for a long time. We've actually shift in our gear now to Wolf Brigade programming.

So there's a lot more kind of unilateral kettlebells and maces and slow and steady rather than the cross fit way that we did it before. And CrossFit worked really well, but there were definitely holes in the game. And I love the strongman movement. So the sandbags and the sleds. And what I realized as I started coaching in the fire service is there was a lot of fear, especially about some of the from some of our more deconditioned firefighters.

But the simplicity of saying, pick this bag up, walk over there and then come back or push this sled over there and drag it back. It removed a lot of the fear. And it really it was kind of like that play thing we talked about. You've kind of gone back to that childlike thing where you're not scared of not be able to do a, you know, a snatch or a muscle up and these things that really don't carry over to the fire service anyway.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, at some fundamental level, I mean, it is pretty easy. It's like you're picking up weight against gravity. You're good to go. You know, whether it's in the form of a barbell, dumbbell, sandbag, hay bale, whatever, I mean, you're just lifting load against gravity and that should have some kind of a positive benefit to it. And we even kind of talked about that. Is there any kind of sneaky, low key way to sneak exercise in?

And, you know, and I've talked to a couple of people before I said, well, you can't mandate physical activity, but can you mandate training? And hey, part of that training is you got to pick this up and move it over there. And can you do that? And, you know, that's been a strategy that a couple of people like kind of implemented or tried.

But yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, I'm from the school of thought, like I'm not going to alleviate or exclude any method of training that may improve performance. And I think at the end of the day, as I've gotten older, I've probably gotten a lot more liberal with what that looks like. You know, and so I don't necessarily ascribe to any one model of training, but basically, you know, how can you use different things in order to help improve your health, your fitness and your performance.

So when I did work with the Colorado State Patrol, Charlie Kornhouser and Ryan Holmes, they were the two officers that were in charge of training there. One of the things that they did that I thought was just genius was the last two weeks of Academy, they gave them workout time and they go they said, go do whatever you want to do. So if you're a kettlebell guy or gal or an Olympic lifter or a power lifter or, you know, whatever, just go get your workout in.

Just try to make sure that you're keeping it well rounded. But whatever you choose to do, just do something. And I think when you're looking at long term adherence, I think that's a really, really important factor because if somebody comes in and, you know, let's say they don't like the high intensity style of training or they don't like strongman stuff or, you know, maybe they dislike more traditional methods.

Like, what will you do? What's going to keep you excited about it? Expose them to different things so they can sample. I mean, it is kind of like LTDs. Can you sample different types of training modalities throughout your career to kind of switch things up, give you a different look, keep you motivated, keep you from getting injured. But just whatever it takes to get them excited and engaged to stay fit for duty.

And then, you know, as you said, fit for life because I mean, that's really what it, you know, for a lot of people, it's not the job that motivates them. It's like they want to be, you know, they want to be able to play with their grandkids or they, you know, want to be able to go out on a hunt and be able to, you know, drag the carcass back and all that. So it just it depends on it's what's their why.

Like if I can tap into what makes them excited about being healthy and fit, I'll use it to make sure they're good on the job. I had Danny Long on the show recently and it sounds like Oklahoma's got a very progressive fitness initiative now. Talk to me about that interaction. Yeah, so Danny, he's doing some really good stuff with the Oklahoma First Responder Wellness Unit.

And so he actually has a lot of BeaverFit products too. So when we first met, he said, I'm looking for a way to take this on the road. And I'm like, well, dude, let me show you this. And so Danny went out and bought like a million dollars worth of them where I only got like, you know, one.

It pays to have a big budget. But yeah, I mean, they're they're doing some good stuff trying to get into the first responder community and be in their form, especially, you know, one of their major focuses is the whole individual, you know, and not just, you know, the fitness side of it. And similarly, like, you know, I'm, you know, get to have some interactions with Danny, who's amazing and their group.

I'm working with another group called Warriors Rest Foundation, which they both have very similar thought process on that, like really working with the, you know, the entire human being and not just, you know, the occupational side of it.

But, you know, really the way that I always kind of look at it is fitness is kind of a gateway into some of those other conversations. Right. And, you know, one of the things that the Warriors Rest group especially says like courageous conversations like the ones you don't want to have. So that's why I was like, I'm kind of the gateway guy, because a lot of times people don't want to come in and talk about their trauma, but they will talk to me about how to squat more to a bench press. Right.

And then once that relationship develops and there's a level of trust, then, you know, more things start to come out, and we can kind of help them get plugged in where they need to get to make sure that they're taken care of as a human being.

I think I told you this before when we talked on the phone, but I'll repeat it, because I think it's worth saying on the show, I had a guy on the show, Tom Hewitt, who was an English surfer. He moved to South Africa and ultimately started a nonprofit called Surfers Not Street Children.

Because what was happening in, I think it was Durban, I might be wrong with that, but the area that he was in, there were a lot of orphans from, you know, from AIDS, from violence, from a lot of these things, and a lot of these kids were not able to swim. They were told there were monsters in the ocean, which there are, especially in South Africa.

But it was kind of a, you know, a folk tale that I don't, I'm not sure of this. I don't know if it was told to maybe keep certain ethnic groups away from beaches. But regardless, you know, so they had to get the confidence in the water. They teach these kids how to swim and ultimately they learn how to surf and some even made the World Surf League. It was amazing.

But after the session, I remember Tom telling me that after they'd done all this, they'd been in the water, they'd had sun, they'd had exercise, they sat on the sand, and that's when they would then give them the counseling, kind of unofficial counseling.

Because you have that community, you have that exercise, you have that connection with nature, and now they were far more apt to be open. And this is what I see also in these kind of shared suffering workouts in a good way is, you know, you do something together. It might be, you know, a fire academy, it might simply be a workout for a station that does tend to kind of initiate more open conversations then.

For sure it does. And I mean, and I think, you know, that's, you know, when you look at different workout programs like with CrossFit, I mean, honestly, they've done that better than anybody. I mean, they really have. Like, they've done an exceptional job of creating community. You know, as far as like the different training strategies, I mean, we can all pick things that we like and dislike about it, and it is what it is.

But I think you always got to look at with every with every form of training, there's going to be pros and cons. And my big take is like, take, you know, accept what you like and reject what you don't and try and help build that. But I think, you know, like you said, I think it was actually Bert Soren, we were having dinner in Colorado Springs one time. I think he made that comment, like, you know, people that suffer together and people that eat together bond together.

Right. And that's true, because I mean, it's that you're building relationships through shared experiences. And, you know, I know I've been really fortunate like with some international travel when I've taken trips with people that maybe I did or didn't know so well.

I mean, we come back and we have a bond for life because that's a unique experience and you know, a shared experience and you know, it again it creates those ties. And I mean, at the end of the day, people need people, even if they tell you they don't. You know, and it's one of those things where that's incredibly important because it's, you know, I think especially in the first responders space. Being vulnerable is definitely, I will say frowned on but it's not something that we advocate for.

Right now, granted, I'm not saying like be vulnerable like you know, you know, I'm so vulnerable but you know, really like when you have an actual problem is knowing, you know, finding that health or finding somebody to talk through it with and you're not necessarily getting that judgment because I think a lot of people do have that stigma that they're going to be judged. And, you know, I think the tighter that bond is the more that that's stripped away.

So, absolutely. Well, I want to hit one more area before we do some closing questions. There's a lot of focus on the training and like you said, there's a broad spectrum from none through to, you know, definitely over training in my professions, especially in the gear.

But where there isn't a lot of discussion is rest and recovery. And I remember it was actually Jeff Nichols that was kind of showing me the error of my ways because we were talking I said yeah, a lot of times I'll go work out and do a crossfit workout after shift to kind of, you know, sweat off the stress and he's like you're adding stress to stress James, you know, you've got to do your harder redline workouts on days where you've already had some rest and recovery.

So talk to me about the rest and recovery modalities that maybe aren't being leaned into in the first responder professions and I'd love to explore as well the importance of sleep comparing it to the performance in the athletic space.

Yeah. So first part of the question was rest and recovery, right, as far as so I think that's, that's one reason why I would advocate for like some model of periodization, which I don't know how tuned in the guest will be to all that but basically, it's just plan change over time. So just making sure you're not doing the same thing all the time. You know, man, I even going back to athletics when I was a kid, you know, you get the t shirts ago.

Hey, when you're not out there working somebody's doing something better than you and they're going to kick your rear end and competition and it's like that's that's great for a motivational thing on a t shirt but the thing is like okay you can't train hard all the time and then

properly rest and recover and they're paradoxical to one another. Right. So, that is the point is like you, you train hard but intelligent hard and mix that in with like high intensity days low intensity days modern intensity days and making sure that there's some kind of

cyclical variation in order to make sure that you can actually adjust because there's there's a concept called the fitness fatigue paradigm, which basically says like as you work out you gain fitness and a lot of times you're able to see that. But the, you also gain fatigue at the same time so simultaneously as you're getting more fit your body's actually wearing down. So until you strip that fatigue away you don't actually see how fit you become.

And going down that pathway injury is really the inevitable, you know, outcome, you just, it just is what it is. So that like some kind of variation within the training program just to make sure that you're not crushing your body every day and actually

taking some time to allow to recover which you know that and that is the thing is like with, you know, a lot of folks that I know that do CrossFit, you know, it's a very fun and challenging workout like honestly back in my 20s when I quit playing baseball, I probably would have absolutely loved it because it was so competitive.

But with maybe people who are not, who don't necessarily have a exercise size background who do that, I think the workout gets merited on how hard it is versus, you know, giving that little variation like yeah, yeah sure push yourself this day but you're going to have to have a commensurate day where there's some kind of recovery that that happens as well.

And I mean, and that's really just what it gets down to is that that cyclical loading and unloading paradigm over time. And eventually, you know, hopefully what you see is you know that trend upward as you're doing it but you know unfortunately like a lot of folks

they just put way too much on and go too hard and they end up getting hurt which, again, if you're a super motivated individual, and you're kind of a type A driver personality which you know a lot of first responders are like me they're type AAA they're not type A, or is better hard is better, and it is to a point, but in order to actually let that fitness come through you gotta, you gotta take a break. I'll tell you man there's there's one officer that's in the town that I'm in now.

Super fit dude just a great human being, but he does things that are not normal. I mean the guys just at a different level I mean you know when you see those athletes that they just figured out. So we did a vertical jump assessment and he jumped 29 inches. I go, dude, do you think there's a way you can find a way to get 30.

And he goes, I don't know, let me try and he hit 31 and a half my. Oh my goodness. Yeah, it's just like what I said he pulled like, I think it was three 300 kilos on the leg back dynamometer like you think you can get 320 he's like, let me try and he hits like 340.

What, that's not. How does that happen. So, he asked me to write him a program, and honestly that's probably the first time in about 25 years I've literally been intimidated to write a program, because he did things that if it, if it was not an insane workout, he did not like it and he did not value it. So, I basically had to sell him on all right I'm going to prove your strength and power, but on that fourth week, I need you to literally cut all your sets in half.

Like keep the same intensity but you know instead of doing four sets do to trust me, just trust me. So, he did that and we came back the next week and he's like dude I literally feel like I can tear the doors off of it right now. But it's just because he actually gave himself that a little bit of recovery and we saw all those numbers go up which I mean that to me is one of the things where I'm always very cautious where I go like okay.

If you're not doing anything I can obviously make you better but when you take the people who are exceptional what they do and make them a little bit better I'm like okay, that's where I think I'm on the right track. But, you know, and for him it really sold but I will tell you this, it took probably everything in his being to not push it that way.

Because it would just so counter to what his belief system was, you know, but yeah to duck till end that we talk about sleep, yeah sleep I mean obviously is paramount. I don't know if you've heard anything about this but our first responder community sleep is something that is a challenge.

I'm going to write that down. Yeah, right, yeah, write that down. Not to be like facetious but yeah I mean it's one of those things where I mean you know in addition to work and shift work which I mean unless you're just inhuman, it's really hard to get on any kind of rhythm with that.

But yeah I mean really trying to prioritize even if you don't get as much sleep getting more rest with less sleep is a big thing and you know a lot of times we talk about you know better bad options and what does that look like. You know this is this is a more exotic approach I certainly don't expect guests to do something like this but I mean that's why even some of the research we want to do later is looking at float tank stuff.

It's like okay well you know hey you don't have the opportunity to get you know eight hours of sleep a night. If I throw you into this for an hour. Is that going to give you some you know additional benefit that's going to help you recover maybe a little bit faster.

I mean it's but more practical because obviously unless you're like Tom Brady you probably don't have a float tank sit in your you know living room but you know I think you know any type of recovery methods you could try and integrate that actually allow you to recover are probably a good look.

And once they actually allow you to recover like you know massage is something that is highly advocated by a lot of people for recovery. I hate it. Why I can't sit there that long. I don't I'd rather just move and do something else so I don't actually get more stressed out by thinking about getting a massage.

So same thing with like the float tank thing like I mean if you hate water it's probably going to stress you out to get in the water you know so it so recovery is such an individualized thing that you know I'm probably what I would advocate for is like one and try and find some kind of recovery modalities that help you.

So Jeff you mentioned Jeff Nichols so he and I worked together on a project years ago and love Jeff to death. But he he had some compression garments, and we looked at how that helped with the recovery process and we actually.

So funny enough, they were these performance pants, and we have them go two miles up the side of a mountain with a 2000 foot elevation change so from like 6000 8000 feet before they did it we had them do a vertical jump counter movement or sorry counter movement jump isometric mid

pole hand grip test. We did a blood lactate and now assessment symptom of them brought it back down and saw their performance changed. And what we actually saw is that when they had the compression garments on, they all did better on all those assessments. So, well, I mean, and we gave them a sham garment to like some like, they see just a pair of tights. So they didn't know which one was supposed to be the treatment one.

But it was funny because Jeff made the comment when he said you know I used to wear them. And when I wear my just felt more put together. And so we start looking at the research on that a lot of gets in like muscle oscillations. So basically by have that compression on there, it helps with your awareness of where your joints are in time and space, and you tend to get less residual movement and we actually

went back in and looked at the GPS data on it. And so I could look at accelerations and speed right. And so what we saw is like when they had the garments on, everybody was faster coming back down the side of the mountain versus when they didn't.

And to me, and I don't know the answer but just so basically when you hit the ground, if your knee moves, you know, a quarter of an inch versus a half inch, you know, you're going to be more likely to put force in the ground which is going to transfer to force going, you know, down the side of a mountain versus, you know,

continuously putting the brakes on having to slow down. But we did see three, two to three days after doing that with the garments on, everybody had lower levels of pain. So that was kind of a positive thing too but now again that's not going to be for everybody.

But I think it's really about, you know, trying to find those different types of modalities whether it be, you know, is it massage, is it hydrostatic therapy, is it, you know, you know, get in the pool and, you know, maybe taking some laps or treading water so you're not only to get the active recovery

but you also get that hydrostatic pressure of water to kind of help with maybe joint swelling and things of that nature. But trying to do those things are going to set the stage for that recovery process.

With sleep, you know, there's some definite strategies you can use and a lot of those come from athletics but, you know, trying to create the sleep hygiene and the ideal sleep environment is going to be really important, you know, setting the temperature to a level that's commensurate with getting a good night's sleep.

So you're usually, you know, somewhere in between 65 to 70 is usually a pretty good range of being. When I go to a hotel, my wife hates that but when I go to a hotel room, dude, it's like an ice box, I love it.

But, you know, blackout shades is a huge, huge benefit. Alcohol consumption, like trying to minimize that as much as possible because, I mean, even though you can get to sleep faster with a drink, you tend to have more disrupted sleep during the night and not really truly hit that rim sleep. So there's a lot of things that we do to kind of help the stage for a better, you know, better rest, better recovery and better performance.

One more question. What have you seen as far as degradation of performance when it comes to the impact of sleep from the sporting side? Oh, it's huge. I mean, that's not the scientific word for it but I mean, it's funny and I think just from a personal experience standpoint, I remember when I was younger, I used to kind of pride myself on like, oh, you know, I can get away with four hours of sleep a night.

Well, that ain't a good thing. And really, I was just getting away with it and I think on certain aspects, I was fortunate where my four hours might have been better than somebody else's eight hours but I still wasn't functioning and running at my best.

And, you know, I think, you know, from a performance standpoint, it obviously has a profound impact. Like if you don't recover, it's going to force, it's going to affect your force outputs, it's going to affect the speed at which you do things, your power is going to drop. I mean, it's kind of one of those things that doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that, you know, if those things start to steadily decline, then it's going to impact my overall ability to do my job.

And, you know, certainly there's going to be times in our life where we're going to be able to get better sleep than not and, you know, everybody has situations but on average, if you can aim to get better sleep, those times that you don't sleep as well tend to be less disruptive.

And people say you can't like catch up on sleep. That's true to a point but also, you know, there are sleep extension studies that are done out there that say, you know, if you slept terrible for two days, you know, if you get some extra time on the weekend and can knock out another hour or two of sleep that you wouldn't normally get, it can't help you.

You know, so a lot of times people kind of have an all or none approach to it because I got it really doesn't help like I mean, it helps. It's just, you know, it's not necessarily as ideal if you're trying to catch up versus, you know, being in a good state already.

Absolutely. Yeah, it's so good to hear this because again it's just layering this point. Our first responders have to be awake when we're all in bed, just it is what it is you know our doctors our corrections officers our dispatchers. So, giving them the rest and recovery is how we offset, you know, the diminished performance and the chronic mental and physical health issues that we're seeing.

Changing for example the professional I know the firefighter work week to a 24 72 so given them actual, you know, good amount of time to recover between shifts. Now they're actually be able to get down to close to baseline and if that's attracted the kind of demand that I saw when I was entering the fire service where there is an overtime, you know, left right and center.

Now you've got tactical athletes that, like you said 24 hours are all in there doing the job there, you know, going to be going from zero to 100 from dead sleep to a structure fire, whatever it is, but now they've got that D load day you know the first day and then the second day they probably feel like they're up for it and get a good heavy training session in maybe the third day as well.

And then they're back to work so I think this is such an important thing to hear from the sporting point of view because as I point out, there's no way in hell that Tom Brady wasn't sleeping every third day. Yeah, no, for sure. I will say this like probably one of the other things in the fire service that's super prevalent and I get it because I'd be the same way is.

All right, so you go home after that 24 hours and okay are you going to like shingle a roof or go to oil field work or you know what are your side hustles that don't you know that don't actually allow you to get that rest and recovery and again I'm all for it. I get it but it's like trying to balance that out so you can do it but make sure you can actually recover from what you're doing.

100% I've always said this if you're if you're going to shingle roof but then you go home at five or six and you have dinner with your family and then you wind down you get a good night's sleep. You know, is that a bad thing, but do you take an overtime or do a night shift and the ER or private ambulance company. That's where the insanity comes in so I think you know if you're a cabinet maker or a personal trainer and you're working on your days off.

Fine, that's your side hustle be an entrepreneur but make sure that it's not impacting your sleep. Yeah, well I think you know and to that end. The only I mean, I don't want to say that only people, it's definitely the less fit you are the more that's going to affect you. Yeah, so the more fit you are the less impact that stuff on the other day is going to have because your body can tolerate that stress.

You know, a good friend of mine Mark Abel so he's at Kentucky, so I think they recently did some research looking at firefighters and looking at working out on shift because there's always like this big debate about you know should you or should you not work out on shift. And basically you know what they found out is like after a certain amount of time for the fit people. It really didn't make any difference because they can rebound back pretty easy. It was the unfit people that crushed them.

So I mean, I think the you know the no kidding statement is like you know if you're a fit human being you just adapt better to life. And in the long run and you're able to do those things without maybe the undue stress or the burden of people who you know are less fit. I mean, again, the less fit you are the harder life is. 100%. All right, well I want to go to some closing questions before I let you go.

The first one I love to ask is there a book or other books that you love to recommend it can be related to our discussion today or completely unrelated. All right, right on. Great question man. I mean some of the ones that I like Simon Sinek stuff. I think you know start with wise I was a great one to start with man some old throwbacks are like good to great. Like the old it's more of a business related but it relates to everything in life as well.

Yeah, I mean there's there's a lot I mean there's a handful of other ones that are more like faith related and things like that that are more self studies that are pretty cool as well. But yeah, I think in general terms those would be some ones that off offhand I would say are pretty pretty solid.

Yeah, Simon Sinek someone I want to get on one day is I heard him talking once about leadership in seal team six, and he was exploring doing this whole questionnaire expecting them you know to select, you know the high performers or whatever it was and I forget even what the takeaway was. Basically, I know the story you're talking about is that they would rather have the average performer of average to high trust versus the high performer of low trust.

That was it trust Thank you for bailing me out completely here we'll there, but the fire service now. We have people with all kinds of pieces of paper that no one tried not not a lot of departments have great leaders but you see this people fly up the promotional ladder, they have all the

bits of paper they have the promotional tests that they need, but their their ethics and their morals don't match those up and so you know they become a boss not a leader. Yeah, for sure. Well, I mean golly if you want to get into like popular culture to look at like the movie Maverick right so hangman.

So you know at the end of it he redeems himself obviously but you know he's kind of the self serving guy throughout the show boater, but yeah but yeah, I think that's the thing that you know in most of our relationships, it so much of it gets down to trust and I think it was that trust is eroded. You know that's where you know there's there's all kinds of challenges, as far as that goes. So, 100%. What about films and documentaries that you love.

Oh man. So I mean, funny enough I don't really watch a whole lot of TV. Listen to a lot of YouTube stuff especially when I'm working out because it keeps me motivated. Man so recently so I get Simon Sinek is a great one. Faith wise I listened to like Ascension Presents a lot of like your father Mike Schmidt's he has really really good, you know, morals like your Christianity type things that I like to listen to Jordan Peterson is actually pretty, pretty amazing I think

just his thought process and how he connects dots with really complicated topics. The thing I like about him is I'm a big fan of taking complex things and making them as simple as possible. And that's the thing I like to listen to him speak because I think it. I think he's very good at connecting those dots and kind of stripping away some of the more complication and make it on more simple terms. Absolutely. That's another person I got to try and get on one day.

Pretty sharp guy. Yeah, absolutely. Is there a person that you recommend to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first responders military and associate professions of the world. Oh man so probably my top two Rob or and Bob Lockie. So, Rob, Rob's a good friend of mine from Australia. I don't know if he's if you've caught up with Rob or not. Not that I'm not. No, he's a mess. I love the guy. So, Rob, he is he is the epitome of a hard charger.

I will say this there are I usually pride myself on saying man there's not a lot of people that can outwork me. Rob can definitely outwork me. The guy is just nonstop. So he's kind of like the Energizer Bunny on crack. It's incredible. And then Bob Lockie, great friend, incredible researcher. You know, we all do a lot of work together. And I've told Bob in the past, I've never seen anybody who is as prolific as you as writing. It's honestly really obnoxious at how good he is at it.

But he, again, he's doing a lot of work in the first responder community, a lot of both of what he and I have done recently has had a massive shift from the performance side and almost more public health, which is funny because like one of my colleagues here at Oklahoma State called me out on it. So Dr. Jill Joyce, she's a dietitian and she makes us a lot of things.

Her background is public health. She goes, you know, a lot of things you say have more of a public health flair to it. I'm like, I'm a performance guy. And then as I started like noticing it, I'm like, oh, crud, I think I'm public health. I was like, we said, you know, you got the performance of the first responder and then you've got their ability to have a healthy lifespan as well. Well, I mean, and that's the thing I always say is like, look, it's health, fitness and performance.

And one begets the other. Like, if you're not healthy, you're not going to be as fit. If you're not fit, you're not going to perform as well. So it really is that that hierarchical approach to it is I've got to make sure you're a healthy human being and then try to layer those other aspects onto it. But yeah, I mean, those those would be individuals I would highly recommend. Beautiful. Have to make that happen if you're able to help.

Oh, for sure. Yeah, that's easy. That's a phone call. Fantastic. Thank you so much. All right. Well, the last question before we make sure everyone knows where to find you, what do you do to decompress? Oh, man. You will usually find me puttering around out on my farm. So basically, I think right now we have some old windows removed from the old farmhouse and new ones put in. And so I'm going to build a greenhouse out of those.

We've got chickens and cows and, you know, hay equipment where we go out and make big round bales and all that stuff. So, you know, you'll probably find me maybe sitting on a tractor or doing stuff out there. Full circle. Yeah. Well, and actually, a lot of times when I'm doing that, that's what I'm looking. I'm listening to the different podcasts and things like that. So it's it's some learning time decompressed time and just time away a little bit.

So yeah. And like you said, it is very much a full circle thing. Like all the and that's been the especially cool thing about being on a family land is like I remember the times out there with my grandparents. And, you know, you turn a corner all of a sudden, like a memory you hadn't thought about in 30 years comes back. You know, it's it's pretty awesome. And I think it's it's made me a better professional, but a better person just in general, having that outlet.

I actually thought about it, romanticize about it, but they built a subdivision over what used to be the fields of my farm. So I can't let anyone else's housing stay there. I will say this. I'm trying to keep town from coming in. And so I've often threatened that I'm just going to walk along the street, my bathrobe, the trend deter people from wanting to build over there. Waving in your underpants. Yeah, exactly.

All right. Well, people listening, if they want to learn more about you and your work or reach out to you, where are the best places online and social media? Oh, man. So I'm pathetic at social media just so we're all on the same page. We're getting better at it. I will say this professionally. If you go to like the tactical fitness and nutrition pages on like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, you will see stuff up there related to our research.

You know, obviously, I've got my personal Facebook and Instagram stuff. Most of that's just things that make me laugh, to be honest. But I want anybody can always reach out to me directly at my email, which is just J.A.Y.dot.D.A.W.E.S. at OKState.edu. But, yeah, I mean, I honestly if if anything, I said it was of any interest or if I can help in any way, shape or form, I mean, send me a message on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, hit me up with an email.

But, yeah, just really happy to help anyway I can and want to make sure that, you know, again, that I can help the experience as much as I can. So what I want to thank you so much has been such an amazing conversation. We've gone all over the place from the tactical athlete to the youth athlete to P and play. It's been an amazing conversation. So I want to thank you so, so much for being so generous with your time today and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast.

Thanks so much, James. Appreciate you.