No. They're worried about the brand. They're worried about, board and and shareholders and everything. We as creatives, we don't think that matters because we're just like, art is pure. Run with it. Trust the gut. Like, you'll be so much happier. Yes. But you have to be willing to put your ideas and your thoughts through that strategic currency exchange and see where they're coming from.
Hi.
Hi. It's good to see you.
It's good to see you too. I mean, I feel like I've known you forever since yesterday.
Yeah. Yeah. The you when you make those special bonds Yeah.
Yeah. Exactly.
When the real conversation goes down at the end.
The after party is where it really Yeah. Relationships are forged.
Yeah. Forged in fire. Absolutely. Yeah. It's wonderful to see you. How have you been?
Doing really well. You know, just, kinda soaking everything in here at this expo and trying to make sure that I talk to everybody that I that I can. I mean, there's just so many talented people here and so many, like it's fun for me to come here too because as, like, primarily a motion graphics artist, there are so many people here who do stuff that I just don't understand, like a lot of character animation and game development. And, so it's really fun to just kinda, like, soak all that in.
Yeah. Yeah. Can you can you tell us briefly for for our audience, so we're here at the animation expo. It has been wonderful. Can you tell us what your talk was about?
Yeah. So, I am I would say that, like, of the speakers, I probably was the one who had the least, like, hard skills to present. There are so many talented people here, but what I'm really passionate about is, as as somebody who has dealt with depression and anxiety and didn't even know I was dealing with ADHD until about 4 years ago, somebody that's dealt with those mental health struggles my whole life, that being paired with the the competitive, crazy comparative nature of our industry has really kinda messed with my mental health. And, maybe it's because I was raised by a clinical psychologist, and so I'm very open about it. You know, it's never been one of those taboo topics for me, but I feel really strongly that there's a lot of people who want help, think they may need help, but they're too afraid to talk about it.
Like, there's some stigma around it. So my talk yesterday was all about how to have artistic resilience, how to weather this industry, but also, like, not lose your mind.
Yeah. I think it was I was so grateful to see, like, even a talk like that be welcomed into an expo. Right? Because you normally never see that. It's like, how do, you know, business harder. Yes.
Yeah. Just keep grinding. Yeah. And that was, like, the antithesis of my message. I kind of was worried I was gonna ruffle feathers where I was, like, just go home and sleep.
No. You were getting cheers. Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think after our talk and after your talk, there was someone who came up to us who was talking about change management, how companies are changing the way they're
Yeah. There you go.
I should talk into the mic. Changing the way they're thinking about what a good business should run like. Think about more of culture. You mentioned right before the podcast, started this, microaggression around AI. Mhmm.
So, like, that was interesting. I think, at least in our creative industry, we're starting to see things shift from hustle, we need to get everything done out yesterday, to, okay, let's what is reasonable? Yeah. Let's lend a little bit of credibility to you because there's maybe a lot of people on our podcast who haven't
I guarantee most people have no idea. Right.
I have no idea who you are. I don't think
they still know who we are yet. We're still figuring that out. Yeah.
We're in this together, though. Yeah.
So, yeah, tell us a little bit about yourself, maybe a little bit about your background and what you're doing now.
Yeah. You bet. So I actually started, my career. I went to Brigham Young University, with the intent of becoming, like, a an art director with a copywriter partner working on Madison Street and, you know, doing the whole pitch thing, the the the woes that we talked about last night. Not not to knock on anyone who's in that industry.
There's a special talent that comes with that. I really firmly believe in understanding of conceptual and the why and everything. But, very quickly in the course of my career, I just I fell in love with motion graphics and animation. I was like, all of my concepts naturally gravitated towards TV or, like, what could we do that, like, is like a web series? You know?
So I I was self taught in after effects and then moved into 3 d and then just really pivoted my career and focused on motion graphics and animation. And since then, I've worked at different agencies as either a motion designer, art director, or animation director. And then I started my own studio for a little while with, 2 other extremely talented individuals called Nocturnal. Did that for a few years. And then due to just family needs, left the business and, took a full time job at Amazon working with their in house creative team.
And I was there for about 8 years until I, you know, life dealt me a a situation where it was time to leave.
Yep.
Yep. Fun tech layoffs of of yesteryear and, ended up at a kind of somewhere I never thought I'd end up before at this little small subsidiary of State Farm called Quanada that our whole job is to be like an internal brand studio
Yeah.
And to somehow explain insure techno insurance technology to the world, which I still am, like, struggling to understand. And it's been exactly what I needed. It's been amazing.
Yeah. It's really interesting that you mentioned that because I think, for some transparency here, there's this idea that, like, a lot of companies are starting to have their own in house agencies, but they're not calling it, like, you know because I know we we spoke with somebody who was at Wayfair, and Wayfair has their own creative agency, but they don't call it Wayfair Creative Agency. It's its own company or its own entity.
PepsiCo has its own in house agency. They call it something like blue Yeah. Blue ocean or something like
that.
But yeah.
Yeah. So it's interesting that that's like Yeah. A model that, that exists. That I I think a lot of creatives don't realize that that happens on the court sort of corporate side.
Yeah. It's interesting. At Amazon, we had our internal studio even though we were part of, like, this large massive organization. I was on 2 different orgs there, and both of them, we had our own brand name. The first one because Amazon has this whole philosophy around, like, it's always day 1. Be excited and eager, which is a cool philosophy, especially if your day 1 is backed by 1,000,000,000,000 of dollars like Amazon. That's in hand. Yeah. Yeah. The render power we
had on day 1 was amazing. Right. Right.
But so we rebranded it to d one, and we did all this really cool stuff around it. And, then I then followed the the same person responsible for that over to the devices org where he just revamped it as just a brand studio, which was really cool. We did a bunch of stuff around that. So it I think there's something in us as creatives that's, like, yes, I'm at this in house team, but I I still have to feel like I'm operating in a creative silo.
Totally. Totally. That makes sense.
Yes. So speaking of that, that's a really great transition to our next question, which is what are some of the biggest challenges working creatively at, like, large corporate companies where most of the decisions maybe are driven by data or by numbers rather than, like, what we tend to think drives creative is, like, creative, artistic choices. Right? Things that are in our minds that make us feel good. Mhmm. Like, how do you navigate that space?
Well, I would say that I I I navigated it. I don't know that I successfully navigated it all the time. It really depends on the business partner or the executive that you're you're working with or trying to sell ideas to. We had some that just, like, got it. You know, they had background yep, absolutely.
Go for it. I trust you. More often than not, it was a lot of risk averse decision making and kind of like strategy by committee. And so it was hard. You kinda have to build this bubble of yourselves as creatives and, like, you know, kinda we're all in the trenches together, so to speak.
We're in this, and we're gonna band together. We're gonna do our best. We're gonna and you it absolutely is imperative that you have a creative lead, executive creative director, creative director, whatever, who is willing to go in and try to sell through the hard stuff and is willing to, like, talk the talk with those executives. And what's interesting is, Will, you just mentioned that, we as artists, we like well, the creative should be, you know, the the end all be all final decision maker. And I agree with that.
And I think what I've learned is that most executives feel the same way, but their preference of creative is vastly different than ours. Their exposure to what's out there, the time that they spent with it is is not as deep and seasoned as ours is, and so they're not as comfortable with things that are new. I found that the more that we expose them and the more we kinda took them on a journey with us and walked them through and used them as collaborators as opposed to, like, you know, the emperor kinda with his thumb hesitating to decide whether we live or die.
Yeah. Yeah.
It it was a lot more effective. So a lot of, like, upwards education and helping them understand what we do.
I like the phrase upwards education. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. One of the things I think you mentioned, I don't know when we were talking, but the way executives think about whether or not a piece of creative or something creative is going to work is kind of based on what the return is going to be.
Absolutely.
So how do you navigate maybe those conversations? Do you also, as a creative, have to start thinking about that as you're making it?
Oh, absolutely. And it's like it's hard because you feel like a little bit of your soul dies at that point. Yeah. And I say I think that's kind of one of the risks of going in house is you have to accept the fact that the end of the day, you have to do what they want you to do. I mean, that's true anywhere. They're your clients. They're paying you. But you have this, like, you know, that that famous talk of f you, pay me. Yeah. Yeah.
You don't have that in house. And so you don't have that currency to kind of, like, hold over their head. And so it's like, well, I am paying you. Just do it. And, so I feel like a lot of what that is is understanding the very real or very big reality that you can do everything you want, but you it might be in vain. And that's hard, but I think once you come to grips with that, it's easier to start to plan your creative around that and use it as another constraint.
Mhmm. I get what you mean. I think I I heard from my mentor recently that there was this idea that, like, if there's ever a time where you feel like you're you're not empowered, but you need to be able to say something that, like, maybe the work's really stressful on your team or whatever it might be, Like, he said to always try to approach it from the the common ground that you both wanna make the work the best it can possibly be. And so when you come at it from that level playing field, it it removes some of the, like, the bottled up emotions that we have of, like, the stress of it all and being, like, this is affecting me because x y z. It's more like, you know, this is affecting the project.
Here's why it's affecting the project. Here's how it's negatively impacting your budget over time, and here's how we can make it better. Here's the the provided solution. We already have it on the table. So what do you think?
And it's like, if you come to all it's it's sad that we have to, like, prepare so much of that to, like, then be like, okay. Now we're I'm gonna give this whole spiel and, like but it is, it is putting everybody on the same playing field there in in some way. Whether or not they accept it or they, like, is a whole different question. But I think it's like trying to meet them what they're where they're at, like, from thinking about it from if they're only thinking about the numbers, then you have to come at it from that standpoint too, which is hard because I don't think creatives are taught that. So, yeah, it's an interesting interesting idea.
Yeah. I think our dog, agrees with you.
Yeah. I was like, say
dog barking. Yeah.
I'm gonna go to the animation expo. Come on, Rex.
Yeah. Yeah. I did not know we were gonna have a a dog presenter today. That's exciting. Yeah.
Well, what you were saying, Catherine, about that idea is it it just kinda gives it it conjures up this image in my head of, like, a strategic currency exchange. Right? Like, strategic goal for the executive is bottom line, is return on investment. Is is it effective? Is it communicating what we want?
And is it not gonna put us in hot water and a cancel culture and everything like that, which is totally fair. You know, they're worried about the brand. They're worried about, board and and shareholders and everything. We as creatives, we don't think that matters because we're just, like, art is pure. Run with it.
Trust the gut. Like, you'll be so much happier. Yes. But you have to be willing to put your ideas and your thoughts through that strategic currency exchange and see where they're coming from. I I spent too long at large corporations trying to, like, prove that I was right and seeing them as, like, the obstacle rather than a teammate.
Yeah. I mean, sure, their salaries are massively bigger than mine. But to be fair, they're also a a lot more familiar with their business than I am. And they're the ones who will take the heat if it ultimately fails or succeeds.
So Right.
It is under their responsibility.
And so the the more I kinda let go of that, like, creative, like, purity, which sounds terrible to say. I'm like, ugh.
I know what you mean. Yeah. I'm
so smurmy.
You know?
But, like, the more I let go of that, the more I was, like, the more I was happy. And, actually, the more freedom I felt like I got because they trusted that I was there to help them and just kinda see their vision come to life. I was a problem solver with them instead of just, like,
a pain
on their neck.
Yeah. It it kinda leads, I think, to this question of, like, you know, do you have any advice for clients who are trying to get this work done and, like, how you know, if we're if we're trying to meet them where they're at, like, how can they help to meet where we're at and come to an understanding there to kinda build that trust that you're talking about?
Yeah. I think I think there's a lot of just a lack of understanding from how hard what we do actually is. You know, they they come to us and they say, here's a brief. Here's your budget. They come back for the review 1 or whatever, and they don't know everything that's happened in there and the vast amount of people that have been involved, the hundreds of people from preproduction to production to whatever that have been along the way.
And, helping them understand that it's not just like we're sitting around, you know, with a little Nerf Poop going, like, yeah. Isn't creative fun?
You know?
Like, let's spend their money now and get some sushi.
You know, I am getting, like, flashbacks though to a time where at at at our old office, we used to make, like, little paper airplanes and, like, send them to each other across the desk. So maybe that happened once. But There's some
of that for sure, but we would, we never did this. But now that I'm thinking about it, like, why didn't I ever probably because they didn't have the time. But if even just the invite of saying, like, hey, executive, why don't you come sit down on the brainstorming session? We're terribly afraid of that as creatives, and, you know, that's a risky move. Yeah.
They can derail it, but you can say, why don't you come, see how the process works? If you have any extra input, go ahead. And and you could do it totally as, like, a, you know, not the real, like, meat and potatoes part of the process.
Right. Right.
But get them involved early on and help them understand what they're looking at, and it piques their interest and then helps them feel more tied to you and committed to you and you to them.
That's a great point because we
So but but I wanna caution here. Mhmm. Or but so there's 2 things. Okay. I wanna caution that sometimes, yeah, you mentioned derail the process. But, I mean, even more so, they might come at it from, like, an emotional place where you're you're gonna ruin my business if you go that way. You know what I mean? Like, that that kind of emotional tie.
That ties to, like, us saying, like, stay curious, not defensive. Yeah. Right? Like, the but
So there's one. But but then the other thing I would say is that they might not have the time. And I think that's a big like, a lot of the times, executives aren't thinking I should devote some time to this.
Right. But that's the thing. They have to they have to see the value in the time. I think that's it. Right? So they're like because because otherwise, they're like, oh, I don't have time for this. But it's like, no. You you need to be a part of this. Yeah. Because it, like, the case in point, a I remember a project we worked on where, like, we we got, like, I think, 3 we got to the animation stage, and that was the first time that, like, the vice president of the company had seen the project.
Yeah.
And they were like, what is this?
Yeah.
And, like and then you have to be like, okay. Well, we gotta explain everything about it. We gotta, like, you know, because you didn't get involved even at the beginning. Yeah. Like, and and it felt like she was already pretty defensive about it and just feeling like I don't understand the value of what I'm looking at.
And we put a lot of time and money and energy into it. So I agree to your point that, like Yeah. There there has to be a a push for seeing the like, having executive level or, like, you know, the final the final decision makers having a say
in the process earlier on. Yeah. Yeah. There's also I mean, I've heard from a couple people now during this expo that, like, there are sometimes people in between who are afraid of showcasing work that's too early because they quote won't get it. Right? Like there's this idea, I could never show this to Ted because Ted's not gonna get it. Ted. And if he sees it too early, he might just can the whole project. Yeah. Right? And so, like, there's a fine line
Sure.
That you're kind of navigating.
Yeah. You definitely have to know who your executives are and when it's valuable to bring them in. And you could you could scale that according to whatever their capability is. We were doing one thing at Amazon where our s team member, our very senior leader, had a background in 3 d production and 3 d animation. He was totally comfortable looking at wireframes and knew what it was. Mhmm. Once I found that out, I was like, let's not polish this. Let's send him a
Let's
send him a wireframe. He'll get it. Right. Right. And he did. He was like, okay. I see what you're doing. The timing feels great. Just make sure that your lighting is right. And I was like, this is amazing. Yeah. I was super lucky in that case. Right. It can very much go south. But I think if if we honestly feel like especially in in internal corporate, like, environment, if we we're gonna position ourselves as a partner, we need to treat them like a partner Yes.
Not as a gatekeeper. Yep. And in doing that, I think a lot of their defenses will come down because I think traditionally the relationship has been very us and them. And hopefully, they'll see your transparency and your willingness to kind of open up earlier on in the process as a sign of your trust in them, and maybe, hopefully, it'll be reciprocated.
Yeah. So I'm curious because I know we're actually
Yeah. We're really close to time.
We're really close to time already. It kinda flew by.
Yeah. Sorry. I'm a I'm I'm a very Gabby person.
No. No. This is perfect. We I mean, you answered the question. So we're we're right on track. We're on budget.
We're on schedule. Exactly.
Yeah. Yeah.
That's what happens when you just work
with a partner. Exactly. Yeah. There's trust here. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So I I'm
I guess I'm curious, like, if, you know, if I I think a lot of people are gonna be interested in in reaching out to you and trying to connect and and having these deeper conversations, whether it's on the client side or talking about, like, the internal that we deal with on
on the
personal side. Like, how can people reach out to you? Where would you want them to go?
Yeah. I'm I'm very open with my personal information. My presentation yesterday, I put my cell phone number and my email up there. You know, reach out to me. My personal email address is mike@mikemorrisdot tv. You can put my phone number on the link to this if you want to. I'll make sure you guys have it. It's I'm I'm very open. And if I don't pick up right away, it's probably because I have ADHD and, you know, I'll get back to you. But Or
you're at an expo.
You know?
It happens. Or or my wife is the first in the queue because I haven't responded to her sooner than that. But, yeah, I would I'm I'd love to talk with people and connect with people, so I'm more than happy to hop on a call or whatever people wanna do.
That's awesome.
Thank you. Mike Morris, you've been such a pleasant ginger to talk to.
Yes. Goal achieved.
Yes. Yes. Thank you for being
here, really. For having me. It's been a pleasure. I've loved getting to know you guys.
Yeah. We'll do a little round of claps. Yeah. We'll put the the sound the sound applause.
This episode is
probably It's as if everyone was right there.
Yeah. Just do the air horn
when it's cracked. Was created.
It's always cool. Dotcom.
Yeah. It is. It's never it's never tagged.
Yeah. Stay creative.
Oh, that's perfect. Cool. Awesome.
Well, best of luck to you guys. In the
next time.
Thank you.
Bye.