038 - POVs - Financial Transparency

00;00;00;01 - 00;00;01;25 That's the whole idea. 00;00;01;25 - 00;00;05;06 Like, the only reason you're hiring me is because you have a different goal. 00;00;05;06 - 00;00;07;16 You have a much more broader. 00;00;07;16 - 00;00;11;15 Here's what I'm trying to do to this audience are here's what I'm trying to say 00;00;11;15 - 00;00;13;13 or here's what I'm trying to accomplish. 00;00;13;13 - 00;00;29;29 Let's help you get there. 00;00;30;01 - 00;00;31;13 Hello, everybody. 00;00;31;13 - 00;00;32;27 Welcome back. 00;00;32;27 - 00;00;36;12 On this glorious day of which I don't know which day 00;00;36;12 - 00;00;38;13 you're watching or listening to this podcast on. 00;00;38;13 - 00;00;41;22 So happy whatever day you're celebrating today. 00;00;41;27 - 00;00;43;00 Happy days to you. 00;00;43;00 - 00;00;46;07 Happy days to you. 00;00;46;10 - 00;00;47;13 Totally there. 00;00;47;13 - 00;00;49;27 This is behind the pixel and Open Pixel podcast 00;00;49;27 - 00;00;53;02 where we try to bridge the communication gap between those 00;00;53;02 - 00;00;56;17 who buy creative content and those who make it now. 00;00;56;19 - 00;00;57;14 Hey, that's not bad. 00;00;57;14 - 00;00;59;24 That's better than I thought you were going to do. 00;00;59;24 - 00;01;02;08 I'm on it. 24 seven. 00;01;02;08 - 00;01;07;22 You know, I live, eat and breathe this podcast. 00;01;07;24 - 00;01;08;21 That's not true at all. 00;01;08;21 - 00;01;10;29 I have a very healthy boundary. 00;01;10;29 - 00;01;14;18 So today's episode is kind of 00;01;14;18 - 00;01;18;11 similar to an episode we had previously where we kind of, 00;01;18;14 - 00;01;24;06 in a way, riffed a little bit, reacted to a particular post that we saw 00;01;24;08 - 00;01;28;29 and kind of tried to give some insight and some advice on the back 00;01;28;29 - 00;01;32;23 end about different ways to approach that particular situation. 00;01;32;24 - 00;01;37;06 I think in the feed, I think we called it an opinion episode. 00;01;37;10 - 00;01;38;28 That's what I tagged it as. 00;01;38;28 - 00;01;43;12 So every once in a while we'll do that and there will still be some hacks 00;01;43;12 - 00;01;44;23 and B wipes and things like that. 00;01;44;23 - 00;01;46;11 But this is just a way to sort of fill 00;01;46;11 - 00;01;51;05 in the times when we're busy and don't have that much time to prep. 00;01;51;07 - 00;01;52;14 Well, 00;01;52;17 - 00;01;53;15 sure. 00;01;53;15 - 00;01;58;20 I guess that touches a little bit on the subject of today's topic as well. 00;01;58;21 - 00;01;59;06 Okay. 00;01;59;06 - 00;02;02;06 Just in the idea of, well, we'll get into it. 00;02;02;06 - 00;02;04;10 Let's let's just jump in. Okay. 00;02;04;10 - 00;02;05;26 So you ready? 00;02;05;26 - 00;02;09;02 Do you have any other plugs or any other things you want to get to? 00;02;09;02 - 00;02;10;13 I got a haircut. 00;02;10;13 - 00;02;14;28 I was going to leave it long, but I go, okay, I cut it a little bit. 00;02;15;00 - 00;02;19;25 I just, you know, I was getting a little too lazy. 00;02;19;27 - 00;02;21;29 Well, you looking real fly over there, so. 00;02;21;29 - 00;02;23;20 Great. Thank you. 00;02;23;20 - 00;02;26;00 Just in time for a podcast recording. 00;02;26;00 - 00;02;26;13 Okay. 00;02;26;13 - 00;02;28;21 For context, Will has not heard this yet. 00;02;28;21 - 00;02;30;04 Maybe you've seen the post. 00;02;30;04 - 00;02;32;06 I don't know. Maybe I don't know. 00;02;32;06 - 00;02;35;17 But yeah, I think we're going to hear potentially your reaction here. 00;02;35;17 - 00;02;37;00 But I'll read it word for word. 00;02;37;00 - 00;02;40;23 For the sake of I guess, anonymity 00;02;40;23 - 00;02;44;12 and anonymity, I won't anonymously. 00;02;44;12 - 00;02;47;29 I won't reveal the the person's name who wrote this? 00;02;48;01 - 00;02;50;07 Yeah, we're going to we're going to keep these anon. 00;02;50;07 - 00;02;53;02 Yeah. No. I think that's what the kids say. 00;02;53;02 - 00;02;55;20 I'm pretty sure that's what they were. Still so happy. 00;02;55;20 - 00;02;57;08 Okay, here we go. 00;02;57;08 - 00;03;01;07 I wonder why small agencies and freelancers 00;03;01;10 - 00;03;03;25 post about how much money they make. 00;03;03;25 - 00;03;05;26 Is this a credibility thing? 00;03;05;26 - 00;03;07;28 Is it to inspire people? 00;03;07;28 - 00;03;12;09 I guess the quote my year break down, unquote 00;03;12;12 - 00;03;16;11 angle of this sort of spins it as maybe educational. 00;03;16;14 - 00;03;20;08 I was always taught to be low key about that stuff. 00;03;20;11 - 00;03;25;10 Not to mention, I saw some big numbers that made me question my life. 00;03;25;13 - 00;03;28;25 I'm genuinely curious about the motivation behind it. 00;03;28;28 - 00;03;30;23 Do you have any insights? 00;03;30;23 - 00;03;33;11 Please respond within 10 minutes. 00;03;33;11 - 00;03;36;20 Devil Emoji. 00;03;36;23 - 00;03;39;21 So I think that yes, I think 00;03;39;21 - 00;03;45;19 that was a callback to the other post that was Please respond in 10 minutes. 00;03;45;21 - 00;03;50;06 That's hilarious. Yes. 00;03;50;08 - 00;03;50;15 Okay. 00;03;50;15 - 00;03;52;17 That post made some really big rounds, huh? 00;03;52;17 - 00;03;55;07 It really did. It really. Did. Right. 00;03;55;07 - 00;03;56;12 So the idea, the reason 00;03;56;12 - 00;04;00;20 why I brought this particular topic up just for some context, is that 00;04;00;23 - 00;04;04;07 in our company currently, we were just going through 00;04;04;07 - 00;04;08;25 reevaluating our values and what we want our company to stand for. 00;04;08;27 - 00;04;11;07 And one of the things that came up for us 00;04;11;07 - 00;04;15;00 was transparency and transparent information. 00;04;15;03 - 00;04;19;01 We kind of tied that a little more related to the information 00;04;19;01 - 00;04;21;26 that is shared through our campaigns and through our messaging. 00;04;21;26 - 00;04;24;02 Yeah, the work. The work. The work itself. 00;04;24;02 - 00;04;24;23 Yeah. 00;04;24;23 - 00;04;29;12 But, you know, it can also apply to this idea of being more transparent 00;04;29;12 - 00;04;33;01 as a community and as an industry in terms 00;04;33;01 - 00;04;36;07 of sharing our financial information. 00;04;36;07 - 00;04;38;18 So I kind of wanted to get your take on it. 00;04;38;18 - 00;04;42;11 I have a feeling it's going to be a little bit different than how I feel about it. 00;04;42;14 - 00;04;45;00 But yeah, any initial reactions or thoughts? 00;04;45;00 - 00;04;48;29 My initial reaction was like, That's a great point. 00;04;49;03 - 00;04;52;08 I actually had the same feeling when I've seen those posts. 00;04;52;09 - 00;04;56;23 So for those of you who don't know, maybe aren't as active, 00;04;56;25 - 00;04;59;18 maybe on LinkedIn, I don't personally have seen them on LinkedIn 00;04;59;18 - 00;05;05;16 because yeah, because I that's the platform I use mostly, although 00;05;05;19 - 00;05;07;08 I am getting an Instagram. 00;05;07;08 - 00;05;09;25 Oh, there's the plug, you know. 00;05;09;25 - 00;05;10;17 What do I think? 00;05;10;17 - 00;05;13;13 I think I think transparency is great. 00;05;13;13 - 00;05;17;04 I am all for transparency and I think it's your 00;05;17;07 - 00;05;21;07 I think it's your right to talk about your numbers if you really wanted to. 00;05;21;08 - 00;05;27;06 I think one of the things inside of our industry as like artists or, 00;05;27;09 - 00;05;31;07 you know, VFX is slightly different, but kind of in the same boat. 00;05;31;09 - 00;05;33;25 It's the artists doing the work behind the scenes. 00;05;33;25 - 00;05;37;05 And oftentimes the the people 00;05;37;05 - 00;05;41;16 running the show, the people who are owners like us or, 00;05;41;19 - 00;05;46;07 you know, big giant corporation executives that have boards and things like that. 00;05;46;10 - 00;05;49;02 They, in my opinion, 00;05;49;02 - 00;05;54;05 are are structured so that information doesn't spread. 00;05;54;07 - 00;05;54;16 Right. 00;05;54;16 - 00;05;58;15 And there's been a lot of other things that pop up legally, 00;05;58;17 - 00;06;01;02 like I think in New York now, it's illegal 00;06;01;02 - 00;06;05;04 to ask about your prior pay or something like that. 00;06;05;05 - 00;06;06;29 There's like laws and. 00;06;06;29 - 00;06;08;09 Ask for your. Pay. 00;06;08;09 - 00;06;10;25 And if you're. Interviewing for a job. Yeah. 00;06;10;25 - 00;06;12;09 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 00;06;12;09 - 00;06;13;26 During interviews. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. 00;06;13;26 - 00;06;19;07 So, you know, I think it's I think it's part of today's 00;06;19;10 - 00;06;25;23 sharing generation of being like, hey, this is what I make and this is how 00;06;25;26 - 00;06;27;11 this is how I made that. 00;06;27;11 - 00;06;31;24 And I think that there is some value to that as a as a fellow freelancer, 00;06;31;24 - 00;06;34;24 someone who's probably doing something very similar. 00;06;34;26 - 00;06;38;28 You might feel like that's a really good insight into how they did it. 00;06;39;03 - 00;06;41;24 You know, how do they make that much money? 00;06;41;24 - 00;06;45;27 And if they broke it down by like client type, I've seen that. 00;06;45;29 - 00;06;50;25 I've seen some like, here's my lowest and here's my highest paying job. 00;06;50;27 - 00;06;56;05 You might not feel so alone in trying to figure out, did I make a lot of money? 00;06;56;05 - 00;06;57;10 Did I not make a lot of money? 00;06;57;10 - 00;07;01;04 Like, why was it so low this year or high this year or whatever? 00;07;01;04 - 00;07;03;23 Like, I think that's a good thing. 00;07;03;23 - 00;07;06;16 Like, I think sharing your numbers is fine. 00;07;06;16 - 00;07;09;07 Honestly, I think I'm coming to that conclusion. 00;07;09;07 - 00;07;13;11 I can see why it would make you question your life choices 00;07;13;13 - 00;07;16;07 because some artists make way more than other artists. 00;07;16;07 - 00;07;20;27 And and, you know, we run a studio, we make probably more than a singular 00;07;20;27 - 00;07;21;06 artist. 00;07;21;06 - 00;07;25;28 So, like, you know, there's there's different reasons for that. 00;07;26;01 - 00;07;27;07 And we could break down those reasons. 00;07;27;07 - 00;07;29;04 There's, you know, obviously artistic skill, 00;07;29;04 - 00;07;32;04 but also the clients that you hold, there's also like 00;07;32;11 - 00;07;35;07 your level of communication with the client. 00;07;35;07 - 00;07;38;22 How well you communicate is is a really big factor. 00;07;38;22 - 00;07;41;16 And I've heard it in a lot of podcasts and a lot of places where like 00;07;41;16 - 00;07;45;12 the communication is actually primary secondary to like the artistic work. 00;07;45;12 - 00;07;49;18 So a lot of folks try to like artistic work is like 00;07;49;21 - 00;07;52;06 it's still super important, but 00;07;52;06 - 00;07;55;16 it's not as important as being able to communicate clearly, 00;07;55;21 - 00;07;59;18 understand the problem, figure out how your artwork is going to benefit 00;07;59;18 - 00;08;04;06 their pipeline or their workflow and the end result of the piece right? 00;08;04;08 - 00;08;07;26 And this I'm just talking about animators, not necessarily designers or, 00;08;07;29 - 00;08;09;07 you know, it's a different workflow 00;08;09;07 - 00;08;12;18 or approach depending on what type of artistic work you do. 00;08;12;20 - 00;08;15;03 So yeah, I think it's a good thing. 00;08;15;03 - 00;08;16;19 Honestly, 00;08;16;21 - 00;08;17;13 I do. 00;08;17;13 - 00;08;21;23 I do see why it might be harsh and jarring, and I think 00;08;21;26 - 00;08;24;22 there is another thing in there in that post that said, like 00;08;24;22 - 00;08;27;12 I was taught to like keep this low key. 00;08;27;12 - 00;08;30;05 Yeah, I think that that is Yeah. 00;08;30;05 - 00;08;33;24 That's like bad. Yeah. 00;08;33;26 - 00;08;35;25 Right. That, that, that. It's. 00;08;35;25 - 00;08;40;04 Kind of like Yeah that gives me vibes of like don't talk about your feelings 00;08;40;06 - 00;08;43;01 kind of or don't you know don't bring up a certain thing 00;08;43;01 - 00;08;47;17 that's going on in your life because it might be seen as like whatever. 00;08;47;19 - 00;08;49;21 Keeping stuff in is never good. 00;08;49;21 - 00;08;54;02 And I think part of don't talk about money or keep money to yourself 00;08;54;02 - 00;08;55;12 or anything like that. 00;08;55;12 - 00;08;58;04 Now, that said, do I feel like sharing my numbers? 00;08;58;04 - 00;09;01;27 No, not necessarily, because no one is asking me about it. 00;09;01;29 - 00;09;03;16 Yeah, No one is asking me about it. 00;09;03;16 - 00;09;06;09 And I also I you know, I just don't want to. 00;09;06;09 - 00;09;10;00 Yeah, this is where the idea of this is where I knew you would. 00;09;10;00 - 00;09;10;26 You would take it. 00;09;10;26 - 00;09;11;21 Because I know that, like, 00;09;11;21 - 00;09;15;07 as a company, we have not shared our financial information. 00;09;15;14 - 00;09;15;28 We have not. 00;09;15;28 - 00;09;20;03 I think it would depend on the intention behind it. 00;09;20;04 - 00;09;24;08 Some of the comments that I saw were On the one hand, you're talking about 00;09;24;08 - 00;09;28;02 the idea of like deconstructing that idea of everyone 00;09;28;02 - 00;09;32;05 needs to keep their finances closed and not share anything else. 00;09;32;05 - 00;09;34;12 So that, you know, it's we're more competitive 00;09;34;12 - 00;09;35;01 or less or whatever, 00;09;35;01 - 00;09;37;05 whatever that reason might be, which I agree 00;09;37;05 - 00;09;40;14 with the idea of deconstructing this and being able to openly share 00;09;40;14 - 00;09;44;21 this is what we're making in my but then there's also this idea of like 00;09;44;24 - 00;09;49;07 depending on in a way, what your actual numbers are. 00;09;49;14 - 00;09;53;12 It could be seen as a form of clout, like you're trying to say, like, 00;09;53;12 - 00;09;57;22 look how great we did this year, you know, And it really depends on 00;09;57;24 - 00;10;00;16 how you're talking about it, how you're framing it, 00;10;00;16 - 00;10;03;16 like what the intention or the goal is behind sharing. 00;10;03;22 - 00;10;07;26 There's something to be acknowledged there that I support the idea 00;10;07;26 - 00;10;12;07 of talking about, like even open pixels finances. 00;10;12;07 - 00;10;17;11 We might disagree on that side, but I believe in that idea of saying 00;10;17;13 - 00;10;20;21 this is why it's important to share it 00;10;20;24 - 00;10;23;29 as opposed to just saying, okay, everyone's doing a year end 00;10;23;29 - 00;10;27;03 review, Here's my year end review, which is, which is different, 00;10;27;03 - 00;10;31;19 I think, than than stating this is what somebody could learn from it. 00;10;31;22 - 00;10;34;25 Yeah, I think that's what's missing for me from that kind of post. 00;10;35;02 - 00;10;37;13 Like there's no teaching there necessarily. There are. 00;10;37;13 - 00;10;39;26 There have been some that that I mean, again, 00;10;39;26 - 00;10;41;20 I think you hit the nail on the head. It's like what 00;10;41;20 - 00;10;44;20 your intention and what your messaging is behind that type of post. 00;10;44;23 - 00;10;49;04 I think, you know, if you frame it around the education, this is how I got here. 00;10;49;04 - 00;10;53;21 I did this, I did this like you should do the same thing 00;10;53;24 - 00;10;56;13 or something similar that might be more helpful 00;10;56;13 - 00;11;00;08 than just like, here are my numbers because I think here my numbers kind of 00;11;00;11 - 00;11;04;09 miscues it towards, Hey, look at me, this is what I did. 00;11;04;09 - 00;11;06;09 And like 00;11;06;11 - 00;11;09;07 maybe there's a you could do it too but that yeah yeah. 00;11;09;07 - 00;11;11;10 You need the how right like how you need. 00;11;11;10 - 00;11;13;12 To how. How you got there. Yeah. 00;11;13;12 - 00;11;14;10 Mm hmm. 00;11;14;10 - 00;11;14;21 Yeah. 00;11;14;21 - 00;11;16;24 And then the other thing too, is that I. 00;11;16;24 - 00;11;22;10 I don't want to derail the idea that you're an artist because of money. 00;11;22;10 - 00;11;23;08 Like, there's a, 00;11;23;08 - 00;11;27;12 you know, there's a form of, like, hey, this is how much money I made. 00;11;27;12 - 00;11;30;12 You should be making that same amount of dollars. 00;11;30;12 - 00;11;34;02 And that's not necessarily true because the type of artwork or the type 00;11;34;02 - 00;11;38;13 of topics or the type of passions that you have aren't the same. 00;11;38;13 - 00;11;39;29 They're not going to be the same, 00;11;39;29 - 00;11;42;01 and your artistic skills aren't going to be the same. 00;11;42;01 - 00;11;46;08 So I think that there's yeah, there's like a form of separation where like, 00;11;46;11 - 00;11;47;18 I don't want to just, 00;11;47;18 - 00;11;50;18 you know, send people off and say, here's my here's our numbers. 00;11;50;21 - 00;11;53;05 If you're a small student, you should be doing these numbers too. 00;11;53;05 - 00;11;56;05 Now it's like we focus on X, Y, Z, 00;11;56;10 - 00;11;59;00 and this is how we got here. 00;11;59;00 - 00;12;04;10 And that's maybe something you could do if you tweak that formula a bit, you know? 00;12;04;11 - 00;12;05;16 Right, Right. 00;12;05;16 - 00;12;06;19 No, that's very true. 00;12;06;19 - 00;12;06;27 Yeah. 00;12;06;27 - 00;12;10;26 I think if we do talk about our numbers, I'd want to think about it 00;12;10;26 - 00;12;15;27 from the perspective of why we're also choosing those numbers. 00;12;15;27 - 00;12;17;00 Not necessarily. 00;12;17;00 - 00;12;20;18 And I don't even know if it's necessary to say, here's what we make. 00;12;20;18 - 00;12;23;18 I think it's for me, it's more important to maybe share. 00;12;23;19 - 00;12;26;03 Here's what we charge and here's why we charge it. 00;12;26;03 - 00;12;29;10 And here's like because I think that's a different model. 00;12;29;17 - 00;12;33;22 If I came out and said, Oh, I made, you know, $100,000 this year, 00;12;33;24 - 00;12;37;24 but my situation, like you were saying, is very different from yours. 00;12;37;26 - 00;12;38;05 Right? 00;12;38;05 - 00;12;42;23 That's a that's a different angle than saying, here's what we charge, 00;12;42;23 - 00;12;48;01 here's why we charge it, and here's how you can think about charging either 00;12;48;01 - 00;12;51;26 similar rates or different rates depending on your circumstances. 00;12;51;28 - 00;12;54;26 What is in that that changes the entire type of a post, right? 00;12;54;26 - 00;12;55;06 I know. 00;12;55;06 - 00;12;57;09 I think that's that that's the other thing is like if you're 00;12;57;09 - 00;13;00;12 if you're going to do a year and numbers review post, 00;13;00;12 - 00;13;03;11 then then you're expected to be like, here's my numbers. 00;13;03;11 - 00;13;06;00 And then like, that's it. That's the post. 00;13;06;00 - 00;13;08;28 That's why we didn't really do one, because that's not necessarily 00;13;08;28 - 00;13;09;22 what's helpful. 00;13;09;22 - 00;13;12;01 I think, you know, being helpful online is kind of. 00;13;12;01 - 00;13;13;25 I guess it depends. Yeah. Yeah. 00;13;13;25 - 00;13;17;13 That's in the that's in the post straight because like does it. 00;13;17;13 - 00;13;21;06 In the eye of the it's. In the eye of the post, 00;13;21;09 - 00;13;24;07 eye of the post beholder or whatever whatever you call it. 00;13;24;07 - 00;13;25;14 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00;13;25;14 - 00;13;29;03 I think because there are people out there who have definitely done 00;13;29;05 - 00;13;32;20 really detailed breakdowns and have continued 00;13;32;20 - 00;13;36;29 to also provide resources to creatives and freelancers about the 00;13;36;29 - 00;13;41;06 how maybe, you know, because you, you can't do it all in one post. 00;13;41;09 - 00;13;43;04 That's, that's the thing about it too. 00;13;43;04 - 00;13;45;03 Yeah. You do have a limit. Yeah that's. True. Yeah. 00;13;45;03 - 00;13;49;03 So you might have a numbers in review post but then also continue to post. 00;13;49;03 - 00;13;50;20 Here's how we got there. 00;13;50;20 - 00;13;52;29 Here's what our goals are for next quarter. 00;13;52;29 - 00;13;56;10 Like that I think is not a bad thing at all. 00;13;56;10 - 00;13;58;14 I think that's a great thing to do. 00;13;58;14 - 00;14;01;14 And then yeah, the other thing I want to tie this back to like 00;14;01;14 - 00;14;04;10 clients and, and communication folks, right? 00;14;04;10 - 00;14;06;24 Like so nonprofits, 00;14;06;24 - 00;14;11;29 if you're a nonprofit listening, your numbers are disclosed automatically. 00;14;12;02 - 00;14;14;04 They're publicly available. 00;14;14;04 - 00;14;16;01 Yeah, you're publicly available. 00;14;16;01 - 00;14;19;27 You can go and see how much money someone spent an organization 00;14;19;27 - 00;14;22;16 spent on marketing or communications. 00;14;22;16 - 00;14;25;01 You could go and see how much money they made total, 00;14;25;01 - 00;14;28;28 how many dollars in the bank, like that's it's already there. 00;14;28;29 - 00;14;31;22 A lot of people don't look one because they don't know where to look 00;14;31;22 - 00;14;34;27 but to because you know who's really paying attention 00;14;34;27 - 00;14;36;28 when they have their own problems kind of thing. 00;14;36;28 - 00;14;39;24 So like, that's one version of it. 00;14;39;24 - 00;14;43;13 The other version is publicly held companies, right? 00;14;43;13 - 00;14;46;27 They have disclosures of similar things. 00;14;46;27 - 00;14;48;10 If you listen to like Yahoo! 00;14;48;10 - 00;14;51;15 Finance, every so often they're like, you know, 00;14;51;18 - 00;14;55;22 Tesla had X amount of dollars last quarter, you know, whatever, whatever 00;14;55;22 - 00;14;58;22 in the earnings meeting they talked about, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 00;14;58;22 - 00;15;01;28 So all of that, the numbers are disclosed. 00;15;01;28 - 00;15;05;26 It's just you might not be in those circles listening to those dollar amounts. 00;15;05;26 - 00;15;09;04 And so as an artist, I guess if you're listening to this, 00;15;09;07 - 00;15;12;01 you're saying, okay, well, maybe you didn't know that. 00;15;12;01 - 00;15;13;08 I don't know. 00;15;13;08 - 00;15;15;27 That might be something to think about as a private company. 00;15;15;27 - 00;15;19;00 Those are the only ones that I think don't have disclosures. 00;15;19;02 - 00;15;23;28 One of the things that clients do that that is also on the side of, 00;15;23;28 - 00;15;29;01 you know, transparency or not transparency is coming up with budgets 00;15;29;04 - 00;15;31;26 which are set somewhere. 00;15;31;26 - 00;15;34;19 I know they are because I know it works, right? 00;15;34;19 - 00;15;36;11 If you're a marketer, you've set the budget for the year 00;15;36;11 - 00;15;39;29 probably in January or in Q1 or Q4 of last year 00;15;40;02 - 00;15;45;00 and you know how much money you have and then you say, well, we have a project. 00;15;45;02 - 00;15;47;27 Here's the thing and 00;15;47;29 - 00;15;48;22 tell me what it costs. 00;15;48;22 - 00;15;49;11 What's your budget? 00;15;49;11 - 00;15;51;22 I don't know yet. Just tell me what it is. 00;15;51;22 - 00;15;52;11 You see what I mean? 00;15;52;11 - 00;15;56;12 Like there's a level of like dishonesty there 00;15;56;15 - 00;16;00;06 that that happens and that's that like, I guess is okay because you're trying 00;16;00;06 - 00;16;02;05 to get the best deal, like you're incentivized 00;16;02;05 - 00;16;04;25 as an organization to get the best deal possible. 00;16;04;25 - 00;16;08;26 Yeah, but you can say that that happens with companies and freelancers too, right? 00;16;08;26 - 00;16;10;16 Because they're. Oh, Oh. Yeah, yeah. 00;16;10;16 - 00;16;11;05 That's what I'm talking about. 00;16;11;05 - 00;16;13;24 If you come at a freelancer and you're like, Hey, what's your rate? 00;16;13;24 - 00;16;17;14 Versus like, I think a lot of times when we come at it, we usually say like, 00;16;17;21 - 00;16;21;27 here's what our project budget is and like, here's what we can work with then. 00;16;21;29 - 00;16;25;25 And then also saying like, we want to hire you for the rate that you have. 00;16;25;29 - 00;16;29;29 And if they ever ask why, I usually break it down really deeply. 00;16;30;02 - 00;16;32;24 Yeah, I feel like there's that level 00;16;32;24 - 00;16;36;12 of transparency that has to happen within the organizations too. 00;16;36;12 - 00;16;36;24 You're right. 00;16;36;24 - 00;16;39;23 Within the client, you know, vendor relationship 00;16;39;23 - 00;16;43;22 and within the studio freelancer relationship for sure. 00;16;43;25 - 00;16;44;05 Yeah. 00;16;44;05 - 00;16;47;05 And if a client comes to you and says, like, 00;16;47;11 - 00;16;49;22 I have this project, what's the budget? 00;16;49;22 - 00;16;52;05 I don't know. Tell me what it will cost. 00;16;52;05 - 00;16;54;26 And to me, I kind of want to say, Well, 00;16;54;26 - 00;16;58;18 I don't know what it will cost to tell me what your budget is like. 00;16;58;23 - 00;17;00;18 There's a level of pushback. 00;17;00;18 - 00;17;02;26 Yeah, yeah. I don't know what's your budget? 00;17;02;26 - 00;17;06;13 And then this is, this is where I think that value based pricing comes in. 00;17;06;13 - 00;17;10;20 Well, what's your goal and how are you trying to get there? 00;17;10;22 - 00;17;12;01 Let's help you get there. 00;17;12;01 - 00;17;14;18 And you pay me 10% of getting there. 00;17;14;18 - 00;17;16;26 And you know, what's that cost to you? 00;17;16;26 - 00;17;19;05 What is it worth to you to do this thing? 00;17;19;05 - 00;17;21;27 And I think that that's a it's a it's a much better model. 00;17;21;27 - 00;17;25;24 I'm not saying we practice it here, but having that conversation is very important 00;17;25;24 - 00;17;29;08 and just taking the leap to say like, Hey, again, for marketers, communication 00;17;29;08 - 00;17;33;10 people, nonprofits, people who are in the buying position here expect that 00;17;33;15 - 00;17;38;11 to come at some point from more people because that's the whole idea. 00;17;38;11 - 00;17;41;23 Like the only reason you're hiring me is because you have a different goal. 00;17;41;23 - 00;17;47;14 You have a much more broader here's what I'm trying to do to these this audience. 00;17;47;14 - 00;17;50;13 So here's what I'm trying to say or here's what I'm trying to accomplish. 00;17;50;13 - 00;17;52;17 Let's help you get there, right? 00;17;52;17 - 00;17;56;00 Let's help you get to that place. Rather than saying 00;17;56;02 - 00;17;59;00 what are the dollars and cents that are going to get us to this place. 00;17;59;00 - 00;17;59;11 Yeah. 00;17;59;11 - 00;18;01;13 So I'm totally with you on the value based 00;18;01;13 - 00;18;05;14 pricing side and right for that for our transparency sake, we 00;18;05;17 - 00;18;08;06 we use a day rate currently, which is a little bit different. 00;18;08;06 - 00;18;12;00 We use a day rate on a sliding scale depending on the type of project, 00;18;12;00 - 00;18;15;01 the style type, which I think we've talked about 00;18;15;01 - 00;18;18;22 so many times and yet no one really gets it. 00;18;18;24 - 00;18;20;01 Style type changes. 00;18;20;01 - 00;18;23;27 It's really, for us, a four quadrant style type thing. 00;18;23;29 - 00;18;25;15 I. Like, I could reveal. 00;18;25;15 - 00;18;26;21 For another day. 00;18;26;21 - 00;18;27;17 You know, as I go out. 00;18;27;17 - 00;18;29;16 Okay. Yeah, we should know. We should. I have. 00;18;29;16 - 00;18;31;10 That's a. Tease. That's a tease. 00;18;31;10 - 00;18;35;26 For a future conversation. 00;18;35;29 - 00;18;36;08 Yeah. 00;18;36;08 - 00;18;38;08 No, it's an interesting topic. I mean, I think don't. 00;18;38;08 - 00;18;40;01 I don't think I would actually ever disclose 00;18;40;01 - 00;18;43;06 my numbers, honestly, because every year is different. 00;18;43;09 - 00;18;47;18 Every year is like it's super high or super low and like, it's a rollercoaster. 00;18;47;21 - 00;18;49;25 It's a roller coaster 00;18;49;25 - 00;18;52;10 financially, when you own a business. 00;18;52;10 - 00;18;53;02 So I also. 00;18;53;02 - 00;18;54;01 Want to acknowledge there 00;18;54;01 - 00;18;57;10 that that might also depend on your financial structure, right? 00;18;57;10 - 00;18;59;19 In our case, I'm I'm happy to share that. 00;18;59;19 - 00;19;04;21 Like we basically bootstrap everything so we don't have investors, 00;19;04;21 - 00;19;08;20 we don't have loans, we don't have debt, which is a wonderful. 00;19;08;22 - 00;19;11;10 We have we have a tiny bit of debt because we have a credit card. 00;19;11;10 - 00;19;12;11 But that's true. 00;19;12;11 - 00;19;15;25 Yeah, but that's but that's like our personal choice 00;19;15;25 - 00;19;18;01 in terms of how we manage our finances. 00;19;18;01 - 00;19;22;24 And so I think it's probably where I feel the need to share 00;19;22;24 - 00;19;26;05 transparency is on that front to tell people like 00;19;26;05 - 00;19;29;05 these are the different types of financial models you can get into. 00;19;29;10 - 00;19;34;23 Here are the pros and cons of it and you know, as owners, I think it's also 00;19;34;25 - 00;19;38;24 I think it's also important to like this dynamic right here of like 00;19;38;27 - 00;19;42;04 I would personally be comfortable sharing our numbers 00;19;42;11 - 00;19;44;02 and Will's not as comfortable. 00;19;44;02 - 00;19;48;13 Like, it's my responsibility as an owner and a leader 00;19;48;13 - 00;19;52;21 and somebody who respects Will to also be mindful of his boundaries here. 00;19;52;23 - 00;19;55;21 And so like if you don't see if you don't see a post 00;19;55;21 - 00;19;57;29 about us sharing our numbers, you can just blame Will. 00;19;57;29 - 00;19;58;29 That's really. 00;19;58;29 - 00;20;01;21 Oh, wow, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. 00;20;01;21 - 00;20;03;09 Firing the shots? 00;20;03;09 - 00;20;05;04 No, no, I think it's more. 00;20;05;04 - 00;20;06;02 No, that's fine. Blame me. 00;20;06;02 - 00;20;06;12 No, no. 00;20;06;12 - 00;20;07;01 Absolutely. 00;20;07;01 - 00;20;09;25 I will take no, but there is something to that. 00;20;09;25 - 00;20;14;01 I don't think we talk about a lot in terms of like owners having 00;20;14;07 - 00;20;16;07 and this is I think we should get into this more. 00;20;16;07 - 00;20;19;27 But just the idea that like as owners, you might have differing opinions 00;20;19;27 - 00;20;24;15 and how you go about making decisions is going to be reliant on 00;20;24;18 - 00;20;28;19 where you both trust each other, where you both like are comfortable, 00;20;28;19 - 00;20;32;03 where you're both like, this is a boundary and I'm not going to cross it. 00;20;32;03 - 00;20;33;12 Like, you know what I mean? 00;20;33;12 - 00;20;35;07 There's just there's something to that, too. 00;20;35;07 - 00;20;38;07 I think there's a different dynamic from sharing your numbers when you're 00;20;38;07 - 00;20;43;26 an individual versus your like in a multi person company 00;20;43;29 - 00;20;47;27 in terms of founding and like investor structure and all that kind of stuff. 00;20;47;27 - 00;20;48;29 Yeah, that's a good point. 00;20;48;29 - 00;20;51;19 As it as an individual, you can just share whatever you want. 00;20;51;19 - 00;20;54;26 One thing that it just reminded me when you're talking 00;20;54;29 - 00;20;57;11 is the one of the bigger reasons. 00;20;57;11 - 00;20;59;05 I think that I don't want to share my numbers or 00;20;59;05 - 00;21;03;11 our numbers is because of the posts that you just brought up. 00;21;03;11 - 00;21;06;11 Like the fact that you like this person's like, 00;21;06;17 - 00;21;09;17 it made me question everything about my life. 00;21;09;23 - 00;21;14;05 I don't want to cause that, you know, that emotional pain to someone online. 00;21;14;05 - 00;21;17;02 I don't want I like I don't want to be the source of like, 00;21;17;02 - 00;21;22;20 you know, jealousy or sadness or whatever for this other person on the other end. 00;21;22;20 - 00;21;24;12 Like, that's just not what I want to do. 00;21;24;12 - 00;21;28;24 So, you know, I could see how a post like that could lead there very easily, 00;21;28;24 - 00;21;32;00 very quickly to be like, Oh my God, I've been doing animation for, 00;21;32;03 - 00;21;33;19 you know, 20 years. 00;21;33;19 - 00;21;35;11 And this person who just started 00;21;35;11 - 00;21;37;27 is making ten times more than I've ever made in my life. 00;21;37;27 - 00;21;39;08 Like, that's that's huge. 00;21;39;08 - 00;21;40;24 Like, you know, I don't know. 00;21;40;24 - 00;21;45;29 It's yeah, social media is a very easy place to kind of 00;21;46;02 - 00;21;49;13 start feeling that self-doubt and that insecurity about what you're doing. 00;21;49;13 - 00;21;51;17 So I totally get where you're coming from. 00;21;51;17 - 00;21;55;16 I think that I will say to those who who do post 00;21;55;16 - 00;21;59;14 and are transparent about their numbers, I say, more power to you if you like. 00;21;59;18 - 00;22;02;03 You know, if you're educating along the way 00;22;02;03 - 00;22;04;20 and you're teaching people how to do it, like awesome. 00;22;04;20 - 00;22;07;13 I think we're happy to support on that front. 00;22;07;13 - 00;22;11;08 And so I think, you know, sure, maybe I'm speaking on behalf of both of us, 00;22;11;08 - 00;22;14;13 but I feel like I'd want to join in 00;22;14;13 - 00;22;18;15 on that conversation of at least the education aspect of. 00;22;18;15 - 00;22;21;14 It, of the how. Yeah, of the how for sure. 00;22;21;14 - 00;22;21;22 Yeah. 00;22;21;22 - 00;22;26;11 That's the that's where I can stretch to you and compromise on. 00;22;26;13 - 00;22;26;19 Yeah. 00;22;26;19 - 00;22;28;12 One of the numbers. Yeah. 00;22;28;12 - 00;22;32;13 The other thing that's in my head too is that like you know our industry again 00;22;32;18 - 00;22;35;18 artists working behind the scenes making it happen. 00;22;35;24 - 00;22;39;07 There have been several times in history 00;22;39;07 - 00;22;42;13 where in history in our recent history 00;22;42;15 - 00;22;47;07 that we're all sharing our numbers on like a Google sheet. 00;22;47;10 - 00;22;48;27 Yeah, the. Spreadsheet, Google Drive. 00;22;48;27 - 00;22;52;05 Doc Yeah, there's so many that I've been I have a whole air table 00;22;52;05 - 00;22;55;23 of like people's salaries and like, anonymously. 00;22;55;23 - 00;22;59;11 But you know how much people make at Nickelodeon or how much people 00;22;59;11 - 00;23;02;17 make and, you know, all these other big, large studios. 00;23;02;17 - 00;23;05;17 You know, there's a big spreadsheet out there that like, yeah, you can. 00;23;05;18 - 00;23;08;05 And the numbers are wildly different. 00;23;08;05 - 00;23;09;24 They literally, yeah, entirely different. 00;23;09;24 - 00;23;14;24 And so creating that transparency will also lead to maybe more conversations 00;23;14;24 - 00;23;19;03 like this, more conversations about, you know, what are people making and why? 00;23;19;07 - 00;23;20;27 Why is it so different? 00;23;20;27 - 00;23;25;17 You know, how come females are making less, Why're minorities making less? 00;23;25;19 - 00;23;27;26 Why are you know, 00;23;27;28 - 00;23;30;17 how come one person who's been in the industry 00;23;30;17 - 00;23;32;05 is making way more than this person? 00;23;32;05 - 00;23;34;18 Like there are different answers to that. 00;23;34;18 - 00;23;38;08 Some of them are great and acceptable and some of them are not acceptable at all. 00;23;38;08 - 00;23;38;17 Yeah. 00;23;38;17 - 00;23;41;09 Why is there a job application for an AA role? 00;23;41;09 - 00;23;43;22 That's $1,000,000 a year. 00;23;43;22 - 00;23;45;05 Million dollar AA role? 00;23;45;05 - 00;23;49;07 Yeah, I wanted to segment that, but that just it's not going to work out 00;23;49;07 - 00;23;50;09 for me. I'm also. 00;23;50;09 - 00;23;53;00 Yeah, I think I. 00;23;53;00 - 00;23;54;29 Oh God, I don't think. 00;23;54;29 - 00;23;57;26 I don't think we could ever work together if you did. 00;23;57;26 - 00;24;00;19 You know, I would just type away my creative thoughts. 00;24;00;19 - 00;24;01;23 Oh boy. 00;24;01;23 - 00;24;04;12 That's a that's a topic for another day. 00;24;04;12 - 00;24;06;07 Let me just type in my creative thoughts. 00;24;06;07 - 00;24;09;19 Eventually, Elon Musk will create the neuro link, 00;24;09;19 - 00;24;12;12 and I'll just be able to think my creative thoughts. And then. 00;24;12;12 - 00;24;13;15 And then it'll happen. 00;24;13;15 - 00;24;14;29 Total quick side tangent. 00;24;14;29 - 00;24;19;00 We had a better idea once that was Elon's musk 00;24;19;00 - 00;24;24;09 and it was a perfume cologne that smelt like Elon Musk. 00;24;24;11 - 00;24;25;07 Yeah. 00;24;25;07 - 00;24;28;13 So it's this was a bad idea. 00;24;28;15 - 00;24;30;03 Yeah. Yeah. 00;24;30;03 - 00;24;32;11 Well, thank you so much for listening. 00;24;32;11 - 00;24;34;23 This is conversation I think. Yeah. 00;24;34;23 - 00;24;36;16 If you have any comments. 00;24;36;16 - 00;24;41;03 I would be curious to hear what your take is on, on this transparency side 00;24;41;03 - 00;24;41;28 of sharing numbers 00;24;41;28 - 00;24;45;20 and like what it's done for you, whether positively or negatively. 00;24;45;20 - 00;24;50;04 And I do feel strongly about this idea of deconstructing this 00;24;50;06 - 00;24;54;02 this like secrecy behind everything, you know, just for some transparency 00;24;54;02 - 00;24;57;27 here as well, like as as owners, I think we're trying to 00;24;57;29 - 00;25;01;18 if we're defining transparency as a value in our company 00;25;01;18 - 00;25;05;11 now, we need to define tangibly what that means for us. 00;25;05;13 - 00;25;07;18 And so when this conversation came. 00;25;07;18 - 00;25;10;17 Up, how are we how how are we living that value? 00;25;10;17 - 00;25;11;17 Yes, exactly. 00;25;11;17 - 00;25;14;01 And so there might be there might still be boundaries there. 00;25;14;01 - 00;25;17;24 There might still be like conversations that we have yet to tap into. 00;25;17;24 - 00;25;19;11 I think this was one of them. 00;25;19;11 - 00;25;22;10 So I'm I'm glad we we touched on it. 00;25;22;13 - 00;25;26;06 And I hope maybe that the listeners got a little bit of insight 00;25;26;08 - 00;25;30;01 and maybe some transparency into like how we talk about these things 00;25;30;01 - 00;25;35;01 and how we operate a little bit more where we're defining transparency well. 00;25;35;04 - 00;25;36;28 We'll let you know where we get where. 00;25;36;28 - 00;25;40;05 But the conclusion of that is throughout the year. 00;25;40;07 - 00;25;43;15 Yeah, I hope you found this interesting and feel free 00;25;43;15 - 00;25;47;24 to leave your reactions to our reactions to their reactions. 00;25;47;27 - 00;25;50;11 Give, take it, Give us your takes. 00;25;50;11 - 00;25;51;05 It takes a lot to take. 00;25;51;05 - 00;25;56;04 Bo Burnham level reaction to your reaction. 00;25;56;06 - 00;25;56;18 If you haven't 00;25;56;18 - 00;25;59;25 seen it, you should watch his reaction video. 00;25;59;25 - 00;26;01;10 It's great. 00;26;01;10 - 00;26;05;12 So this is a side thing we can kind of 00;26;05;14 - 00;26;10;21 I listen to Bo Burnham when I work out. HE 00;26;10;24 - 00;26;11;10 Yeah. Yeah. 00;26;11;10 - 00;26;13;08 Great way to work out. Yeah. 00;26;13;08 - 00;26;14;09 That's a choice. 00;26;14;09 - 00;26;17;23 That is a choice. I love. I love his work. 00;26;17;26 - 00;26;18;14 Oh yeah. 00;26;18;14 - 00;26;21;14 So, but yeah, that's, that's a choice of the two. 00;26;21;14 - 00;26;24;01 Okay, so stay tuned for all the excitement. 00;26;24;01 - 00;26;26;12 Of, of what we have teasing. 00;26;26;12 - 00;26;27;14 Yeah. Thank you for listening. 00;26;27;14 - 00;26;32;04 And we will see you next time. See, 00;26;32;06 - 00;26;35;12 this episode was brought to you by EA Media. 00;26;35;14 - 00;26;37;02 Our producer is Jackson Foote. 00;26;37;02 - 00;26;40;07 Our music was created by Hidden and licensed from Premium BET.com 00;26;40;12 - 00;26;42;28 and until next time. Stay honest. 00;26;42;28 - 00;26;44;24 Stay creative. Stay open. 00;26;44;24 - 00;26;45;17 Up in big cities. 00;26;45;17 - 00;26;48;17 We will see you in the next episode. Thank.