Aton Ben-Horin - On the Life of Record Producer, What it Takes to Make it As an Artist, and the Importance of Hustling

agents and management, so many sides to music. I'm so excited we have Aton ben Herren in the house. You are the global VP of warners Ay and our group. Hey, that's a big deal. I'm so excited to have you here today. The entire premise of the show is interviewing people who are behind the influence and are of influence.

You play a huge role in the behind the scenes of the influence and actually discovering people, which is a big deal, and discovering not to anyone, but people in the music industry, which is, in my opinion, the hardest industry to break through. How do you do it all? And what do you do? And we need to get to the nitty gritty here because I've always been so confused about how the music industry works. How does one

get to that position? So there's not one way of becoming an A and R. We're working at a record company. Everybody has a different journey, you know. It really was a long journey. I've made all my money off of music related stuff since I was fifteen. I've had no other job. I did a lot of different things in music to get to this place. And the interesting thing is that I didn't really plan. I just kind of followed my heart every step of the way, and it kind of like led me to this part. I think

I was like ten years old. I was in the school choir, so like I got a headstart on like hearing harmonies, which actually helps you have a good voice. It's it's it's background background. Okay, okay, it's better than me. It's I'm just good for the shower. It sounds great in the shower. Shower was a good place you have good acoustics. And and then I took two as a piano, but I still wasn't obsessed with music. I was actually my life was actually ice hockey. I was obsessed with

ice hockey. I was living in Miami. I remember I was at hockey camp and I left practice one day and this is like and there was I heard like Green Day basket Case playing out of like someone's convertible, and I was like, and there was not. There was nothing that sounded like that at the time, and I was like, what is this. I've never heard of this. I was obsessed with this is insane. I have to learn more about like I wanted to hear all those songs.

So I bought the Dukie album. Yes, I could listen to it right now, Yeah, so good, and yeah we should play it. And my father had a like an acoustic like nylon string guitar that was just kind of collecting dust at the house. And I learned how to play every song on that album. And my fingers were almost bleeding. I remember, like it was nuts. When you first started playing guitar, it's like an awkward feeling and it hurts your fingers, so it's like they get past

that like first threshold. But I remember my fingers were practically bleeding, and I learned every song on the album. I was like, obsessed, How did you learn that? Where you did someone give you. There's definitely these like tablisher things which are very easy. So it's not like reading like regular notes. It's like anybody could read it. It It kind of almost like it's looking at like a picture of like the strings and like, so it's pretty easy.

And I took two only took like two months of lessons, but then learned that kind of taught myself the rest. Once I learned how to read that, I was like, well, I could just keep doing this and figure it out. But but the rest of the guys in my hockey team, we were all neighbors. They all picked up an instrument that we started a band. What so you basically like poached the entire ice hockey team to come and join

your band. We were like best friends, so we kind of really all like that got exposed to it at the same time, and then started a rock band. And that turned out to be like a crazy long journey which I could write. I don't know how long this interview is, but to literally spend I could write a book about every part of my journey, but just the band stories like insane. About two years in I had to lift for college, took a break from the band,

and ended up producing. Well, I got exposed to dance music, so I became like obsessed with dance music, bought a drum machine, brought turntable, started producing, and uh, I was djaying locally at a bunch of places. Where were you at the time. I moved to Orlando for college, so it was in Orlando. So did you make your way to Miami where a lot of the electronic music was Yeah, I actually I played Ultra Music festival like three or

four years in a row. I was a DJ, and I had developed a following in that scene at the time, and uh, and I was also getting learning how to produce and DJ and all that I was. I d on air two at the at the local station and a couple of venues. And what I started doing also for extra money. I started throwing events downtown, so I would book local talent and like DJs and like collect the door money. So I was doing like everything, and

then the band gets back together. So at one point I was djaying, I was in the band, and I was throwing events downtown. I remember we'd be on tour and I would call I would make calls back home and there was somebody collecting door money for me and like flying the DJs in between like shows. I would like in between cities, I would make calls. That is the definition of a hustler people. And you're in Miami,

so it just makes it even better. I went to college in Miami, so I'm just like picturing you a mentor like bead that happened and we were play We did like warp tours, simple plan tours. The whole thing. I was writing songs that didn't always fit the band, so I I it was like pop pop songs. I started producing for other artists and ironically, I so I sold my first song as a producer to Mike Karen

at Atlantic Records. At the time, that's who ended up like years later, I would end up hiring me to do a hard so I told him he was at the time, he was the vice president of an art Atlantic Records. I started this production team called the Agency, and that was like our first The first thing that we sold was like it is like two thousand six and then I had money saved up and I was doing a bunch of songwriting for local people and Mudy saved up Max all my credit cards. Took a big risk.

What became like the most popular studio in that region, which is called Plush. It's called Plush Recording Studios. That's kind of that's when things started picking up. Whenever the studio wasn't booked, I would either be writing or I started signing local producers and writers to management, letting them

use the rooms when it wasn't active. But but in the studio, and we had all types of anybody that would come through Orlando, Chris Brown and Flow Rider and DJ Khalid and like like all it was like a constant flow of people. I was making great contact. I was I was leveraging the studio locally for different things. How the stars aligned there is insane to me. And you still have all these other things still going on. You still have your band, I'm assuming you still have

your music that you're creating. You're still booking clubs and shows and all these things. But it's just one of you. How did one sleep or eat during all this time? Did you not? It was kissed, but it was definitely chaos. But when you do what you love, it's like fun and it doesn't feel like work. You know. The other thing that a lot of people say in your position, who have been very successful. Ultimately, they literally dumped out every penny from their bank account or max out their

cards to make it. Like we were talking to the under of Patreon, Jack Conti, and he was saying he literally max out his credit cards, like didn't have rent money and just went for it. I feel like that's when you know it's in your heart and you really want to do it. Because if it's a if it's a maybe I don't know, should I, you don't do it. If it's a full body yes, I have to do this,

you have to do it. Yes. But to add to that, I always say, you have to be realistic, right like if I had just done my band, I would fell on my face if I had just done DJA, if I had just you know, done it. So it was because I did everything, like I had a side hustle. Basically I advised everyone, whether it's music, side hustle or not, to get some kind of side hustle because then you have a timeline like if I don't make it by this amount of time, I still have this, then I'm yeah.

Or if you have a sidehusse, so you don't have the timeline right exactly, because you don't care. Yeah, you're not like, oh my god, I'm gonna, you know, be out on the street like I have, I have something I can continue because you don't know when things are gonna connect, you know, so at least it gives you, like the longevity. I believe that you always have to have a side hustle, Like I would never just do

one thing. I don't do just one thing, you know what I mean, because you never know, and you don't want to just be fall in your face like you said exactly. So that's kind of what what what I guess it was for me. It was like I was doing things I loved, but I definitely had to do Like I mean, even the throwing the events downtown, Like you fly in the big Act. You spend all this money and then it rains and nobody wants to go to and nobody wants to go out. It's like torrential

downpours and you lose money. And I was like, man, it's so it's like there it was a lot of ups and downs. It was. It was definitely stressful and but fun at the same time. And then there was this one artist I found and developed and signed to a management deal and put out this song that I wrote and produced as well, so and the whole thing went viral. Who was the artist? It was just it was a YouTube thing grow Avery at the time, kind of like a young like Avril type, and she went viral.

It went viral. There was a big beating war. Everybody was like trying to sign her. Um we did, ah if we did a deal with a Universal Motown at the time, Sylvia Rowning and Chris and day Um at Universal Motown and uh, shout out to them. They gave me a shot as a young manager. Shout out to people who give others a chance. Really for real, is that's what it's all about. Yeah, I got a check, moved to l A, hired someone to run my studio

in Florida, which I still have to this day. Insane um But but that's what got me to l A. We were working on that album for about eight months and I was writing with all like a lot of local writers and producers. It's funny, a lot of people don't realize, you know. Now they look at me, you know, they they say, oh, that's a that's the A R guy. But at the time I made a lot of the writers and producers as a co writer or co producer

with them in the room. So it was a really cool way to meet a lot of the writing community at the time. What ended up happened eight months later Motown, before we were about to go to Radio Universal, had this whole restructuring, so a bunch of artists got dropped and everything kind of shifted with that, and I was like, man, what do I do now. I spent two and a

half years on this project. I'm in l A. And right around that time, Mike Karen, who bought the first beat from me, became global president of an R for War and Music Group, so and he he's like, do you want to try an R And I was like, yeah, let's let's do like like a trial thing. And thank god,

it was like the dots connected. My first hit was talk Dirty or Jason, I mean, come on your whole journey just sounds like the stars were aligning the entire time, and the universe was like, Okay, Tom, this is what you're gonna do. But first you're gonna do this band, Then you guys are gonna take a break, then you're gonna do this. Then there's gonna be a trench led downpour at your thing. You're gonna lose a hundred K. But it's okay because in the end everything worked out.

I mean I think that you know, you know what it is. It's it's uh. I'm actually I learned so much from from the journey. I mean, first of all, I always say, if I didn't do this part, I wouldn't know this. If I didn't if I if I didn't like have this issue with a tour guy, you know, at this venue, I wouldn't know how to give my artist this kind of advice and and everything because kind of you connect the dots and it makes me, you know, the best I could be at this job now, which

is exciting. But I also learned that, like you know, I used to get bent out of shape, you know about over stuff when like I mean, I I skipped a lot of stuff. But like I actually got kicked out of my band when I was you know, I think it was I think it was eighteen. I was seventeen or eighteen at the time, and for me, that was my life at the time. And I was, so, why did they kick you out because you weren't giving

it enough attention? That's a whole other story. But we don't get into I mean we we we added a new band member, I had to leave town at the same time, and then like when I came back, they had been practicing. It was a whole long story. But but but but I love them and I forget. Did you feel replaced? I felt, yeah, I felt really hurt. I was really saying. I knew that we were adding a bandman, but I didn't new that I was being replaced.

And I don't think that was the plan. But when I left town for two weeks, my family happened in a book, a vacation strategically like right at the same time. You know, it was okay, But I think that's a part of the stars aligning. Yeah, honestly, it's funny because at the time I was so sad about it, but it ended up being one of the biggest blessings of my career. That's how I wouldn't have known that, because

if I didn't, that didn't happen. I wouldn't have gone on to learn how to produce and buy a drum machine and get exposed to dance music and get exposed to the other side. I was. I was my world was that band that was everything. So it really but but but that's just one story. But I have a ton of stories like that where like I thought something was, you know, bad, and it turned out to be good. Or it's just like I just learned to trust God

and trust that process. I was just about to get a little God on you, but you said God, So I'm want to say God. I have this picture. It's my favorite in the world. Every time I lose something that I wanted, like whether it was an opportunity or whatever, there's this image of this little girl like reaching out to God being like, but God, I wanted, and he's holding a really tiny teddy bear and he's taking it away from her, but behind his back is a huge

teddy bear. So it's basically saying like she's really wanting that little tiny teddy bear, but the big one behind the back is like just wait, it's coming. And it's like this image I always look at when something goes wrong, or if I think something's supposed to be one way but then it turns out the other. I just trust God and I'm like, you know what, I'm leaving it up to you. I know You've got big things plan I'll just sit back and just let let things happen.

You are now and so many like even me listening to your story. The A and Our person you met before when you're in Florida, and then and then the global in our president is now somebody you know and he's giving you a chance. It's like so many amazing opportunities for you that I don't want to say fell into your lap because you worked hard for those. I mean,

every relationship you made along the way. The hustle, those connections are why you are where you are, And I think people forget you can't just be talented and be like, guys, I'm good at this job, like you have to. You have to hustle and prove it. So for people who aren't familiar about how A and Our works back in the day, probably just sending in a cassette of your

favorite song or whatever. How is it today with digital and social media and I mean you can literally go on SoundCloud or Spotify probably find the next big thing. Are people actually submitting things still or how does that work? So I get about a hundred songs a day to my email from all over the world from managers, producers, writers, artists, publishers, attorneys, agents. It's like hundred songs a day and about four to emails a day. How many do you listen to? Listen to?

As many as I can? Do you have someone else help you? Like, yes, I have to have a team of six under me and amazing team shout out to them. But but but I listened to as much as I can by myself. And whatever. Like a lot of the unsolicited stuff, I'll send it to one of my trusted years and if they love it, they'll send it back to me. And but everything gets listened to, And I mean there's a whole I can tell you a lot about how I listen to the stuff, but I'll say

quickly that they're probably the most important. Well, the course is the most important part of the song. So if it's a song I skipped to the if it's just gonna ask, do you listen to the first like ten seconds or do you kind of up there out the song is structured the right way, The course should come in no later than forty five seconds. Think past that is too long of a wait, So I try to

find the chorus. Pro tip guys, if you are going to submit a song, to aton make it hot before seconds, or he's not listening, so I'll try to skip to the chorus. I'll find that I hear the course. If the course is great, then I go back and hear the whole song. But I also get a lot of instrumentals, so like because a lot of the stuff we also put songs together. I can't always count on somebody sending

me a hit song, so we're pretty proactive. A lot of us, most of us come from musical background, and on my floor, I have studios and we have constant writing sessions, and uh, it's a lot of it is putting the right people in the room. But so I mean, we we sign, so obviously we look for new people to sign, but we only signed a certain amount of

things per year. But most of my time is actually spent either putting songs together from my current artists or in the studio with them, guiding them into the recording process, or basically, like I mean, there's there's just like the two sides of any arts. There's a discovery side where you're kind of scouting news new talent, and then there's the record making side. So so you have to actually

follow up and develop that. Yes, I mean the most important thing is hits, you know, and every and every artist has a different has different needs for that. Some of them are better songwriters than others, just totally different talent to writing a hit song and being an artist. And uh oh that's a that's a good one liner. Yes, that's so true though, So explain that a little further

for us. The only specific people that could be artists they have the voice that that unique and specials and that they have the drive and because I mean, it's seven thing being arts, especially if you succeed, it's literally like you have no life. It's like so much work, so many things. You have to love it and be able to deliver on all that stuff. And songwriting is

a whole other thing. There's there's artists that are superstars, but they can't write a hit song on their own, you know they need is it because they expect others to do it for them or they just don't know? I mean, they all of them, you know, they love music, All these the ones I work with, most of them try their best, and some of them do write hits. I mean a lot of them write write their own hits.

And but but but but the smart ones also know that even if you write your own hits, Like let's say you have a hit song, it's exploding the first thing you do, you're going out to promote it, you're touring, you need to follow up, so you you can't even physically be you know, sometimes it takes, like, you know, even the best writers in the world, like ninety percent of the time they go into studio, they're not writing

a hit. It's like it's like if it was so easy, then everybody would just have like, you know, not stuff if you're constant. So so sometimes it takes a couple of months in the studio to find the one record, you know. So the artists sometimes, if I mean so it's different each time. It's not like a set amount of time, but you can't know when it's going to come.

So so if they're promoting a song or on tour and they don't have as much time to spend, so sometimes they need more support, even though they're amazing writers or producers. So so it just kind of like every every project has different needs. So I just kind of try to care to each artists and what they need and always respect also what they're passionate about and try to support their visions as best I can. And you

know it's it's mainly also about that too. You have to kind of find a happy medium between finding a great song and also supporting the artist vision and their passion. Okay, so talk me through this. I submit my song to you. It goes to your email just so people know how it works, and maybe maybe one day they'll reach out to you because we are wanting to inspire, right, It's all about that. Sending you an email with the song, make sure the song is popping before forty five seconds.

And then you find something you like. After you find something you like, what do you do with it? Do you reach out, your team reaches out for a meeting? How does that work? Well, Before we even get to that, I'll say one thing I'll say is a lot of artists. There's so many people with good voices. If it's an on the if it's a new artist, so many people

as good voices, so many talented people. But I think the one thing that really will get like someone's like my attention, at least on the A and R side, is like also having a great song with that, because that's actually what separates you from like another artist is just doing a bunch of covers, a YouTube things. There's

a lot of those types of artists. A lot of the signings are based also around having a because the song also kind of also sets the direction for the project, and you could spend like I could sign an artist that doesn't have that song, and that could find them a song and they're not they don't love the song, or they're not they're the eye to eye, or they could spend two years in the studio trying to get the song, they don't get the song, or they get

the song and they have to start from scratch because the direction is totally different. So having a great song is so important, So that that's definitely one tip I'll say too, like that's a really big part of the process because there are like a lot of I didn't realize until the day and are really how much talent there is. I mean, there's so much, especially here. I mean I go to a hotel cafe and I'm like, what,

why is this person not famous? And I've interviewed so many artists in l A. When I'm back in the day, I would only do music for a different platform, and I would interview these people and we'd go to their music video shoots and they were here from London, in or wherever, and then I wouldn't hear from them ever again,

Like they would be gone because the label. I don't know what happened, But I want to get into that with you actually, about how that works with labels and signing people who think they're all of a sudden gonna blow up and then they don't, and then they go home.

I do want to talk about that. But to close this conversation off about the n R. You find the person you like, you reach out Obviously, I'm sure you do your diligence and research or Instagram and do all that kind of stuff before you set up the meeting. Is that a part of it? Definitely check out as much as I can before, not just to save my time or to save their time. Yeah, is social media important to you? I mean, if you found someone with two followers versus five million, are you going to go

to the five million or the two that's a better artists? Well? Before that, I'm like, who has the better music? Right? I would rather sign someone has the better music without any followers and sign someone has a bunch of followers, but no music unless I could there's a song that there's that that we find that I have to happen to have that could work for them or on file or But but I really think the music always leads the conversation. That's refreshing to hear because I think in

a lot of industries that's not the case. That's awesome. And when you do find the person you're convinced that that is some of that you want on the label, do you then pass them over or you're developing them? But then what happens to the artists they go through all their deal stuff? Yeah, I mean, I mean I like to just get to work first and like like are they your artists at that point? Um, it's sometimes yes.

Sometimes I just like to also get some vibe with them in the studio and see if we have a good like mystery and stuff, because it's not about like signing a quick deal. It's about like building something and like you know, do you guys work together, do you

mesh together? Do your visions align? Like? So I like to kind of then get to know them, do some time in the studio and see what what how they work, how their workflow is and how the processes and but but yeah, if we feel everything, if we love it, then yeah, I mean I have also a cool position because I'm Warner Music Group is actually the parent company too, So so, uh, we have Atlantic Records, we have Warner Records, we have Parlophone, Electra, Big Beat, APG, we have a

bunch of companies. So cool thing about my job is, you know, my team kind of sitsum in the middle, so we're able to sign stuff to any of the companies. Oh that's nice, it's very amazing. So you can actually say this will probably make most sense over here, exactly, that's great, exactly. Or I can send it to a couple of the companies and see who's who sees the same vision and and so some of the stuff I I signed directly to Atlantic, some of the stuff I

signed with the APG with my parents company. It's different every time, which is awesome. So that's part of what I love is that we have a lot of options. But yeah, I mean, so so that that's kind of that's awesome. Is there a certain artists that you're super excited about right now up and coming that you're working with. I would love to hear. You don't feel like I'm cool. You're not allowed to say, you know, I'm sure I'm allowed to say. I mean, I'm just I'm in my head, like,

oh my god, they're all your children. I'm so excited that, like I don't know who to talk about first. I mean the newest signing for me. That that that that is just like, actually, I'm not I don't even think it's a public signing, so I can't even it's not even publicly announced. But there's someone I'm very excited about. That man in you'll tell me after the show, I'll tell you, and then I'll just like edit it in. Yeah, but I just actually came from having breakfast with Fosia.

It's spelled f A o U c i A. She is a maniac, like in a good sign Her voice, Yeah, her voice is publicly her project. Her voice is insane. It's uh, I don't even know how to describe it. It's probably one of the best voices I've ever heard. Well, how about this. Right after you say it's one of the best voices I've ever heard, I'm going to cut in a little bit of her song. Does that sound good? Okay? It's gonna roll right now. Um angel so mean. I'd

take it all and I will never give it. I don't feel sorry if it's almost see you gros every sun start, I'm waiting for yours used to dry. I don't really care and done ever will That's the way. I am such a fear pill. I don't really care how my silence skills that schoolway I am. No. I was in going out, I was I was like this, No, why do you break me? No, now I blame I wasn't with all these and many like, can't blame. I'm the nightmare. I know what you mean by that was amazing.

She's actually really super sweet and humble and loves to uh and she's a fantastic songwriter. She's I think, wow, they're all so young now, all the like up and coming hot artists are so young. Should people throw in the towel if they're like thirty and really want to do do the thing? I think it depends on on the obviously that it is an advantage to having younger But but but but I mean, there's there's no like

right or wrong, and every project is totally different. If you're doing like not now that there's like but if you're doing like straight pop, I think being thirty years old is a lot differently. But I get what you're saying, because you're not gonna want. Pop has a look, it has a vibe you're not gonna want And it's not agism.

It's just the reality of it. And I also assume some of it has to do if you want the artists to be around for a while and not just be like, I give up, I want to have kids now I'm over it, right, any other artists you want to plug, Um, I'm here for you. Well, I'm just excited about this this Gatlantis faith song we just put out with Dolly Pardon. Did you see that? We actually we got this guy speaking of somebody who shout out to Saints. On my Team is an incredible in our

on my on my team. He put together this this faith record for Dolly Parton. Um and well, Galantis is the act about one of our artists. He actually managed to get Dolly Parton on the song. They're they're actually doing a whole story about it. But but, but the songs are doing incredible. Let's tell a little bit that song magic, what awesome I gotta get one more. Shout get one more shout out in Alec Benjamin, Alec Benjamin his guy. Yes, I love Alex So alex is when

you know, this is why it's hard. I have like I know it's hard. You could do this for twenty minutes. Yeah. So Alec Benjamin has another artist I signed that I love and uh mi guy my dear friend of my Miles Beard. Also he's you know APG, but we work on it together. But he's he's Alec is incredible. He had to let me Down Slowly song. I'm sure you've heard it. Yeah, yeah, he's he's on fire. So shout out Alec and he's playing to cella. Oh yes, he's about to put on a new album and yeah he's

a new tour announcement. It's it's exciting. And if you guys haven't heard from him, here's a quick little clip of Alec your boy a little symphasio. You can show me if you want to go, then if you leave baby, let me down slowly, let me, don't don't let me, don't don't let me, don't don't let me, don't let me do if you want to go, then if you leave them let me done slowly. Oh, I wanted to ask you about international music. This is a selfish question.

I have a cousin who has an incredible voice. We're Armenian and so he sings at all the you know, big Armenian events. He's a great voice, he's a great edgy look. And I know a lot of people in the music industry and I'm trying to figure out how to help navigate where he should go and what he should do. It is the move to put a bunch of stuff on Spotify. Is the move to I don't know what to say. If you send me the records,

I could tell you what the move is. Oh, do you see what happens when you know aton you get to directly. I'm not even gonna send it to you.

I'm physically gonna, like do old school c D. I'm gonna burn it on the CD and I would be like, this is my cousin, Chris, that's what we're gonna meet, and we're gonna listen to that on a discmand just so it can be really official, you know what I think about all the time, like back then and at that era, CDs and cassettes and all that, like I mean A and R back then was so different because now I sit by a computer and I can hear thirty songs in like twenty minutes because click Back then,

I mean I would have to go out every night of the week to hear to hear bands and and do you still do that though, just to be like a little I do for obviously I go out to stuff for fun. But but if it's for like to find something, you're not out there searching. I mean, you don't have to search. Well, well, the thing is like I could sit there for three hours and hear three acts and not even hear what the record of music sounds like, because probably the most important thing, at least

in the beginning. But but but I actually if I like something that I that I get that gets sent to me, then I go here alive or then I'll go see like that. It's kind of works backwards. But I just can't imagine doing a R back then would have been a totally different Yeah, there's a there's literally a male person walking by with a cart with like CDs and just I can I believe none of those

wire listened to, Like there's no way. I don't know who had the time, or they had a bunch of interns doing it, and then some really great stars did not become stars. But it literally you have kind of like I would have no would you have no life every night? I had every night doing so, So I don't know if I would enjoyed it, but but I mean, I'm sure I would still enjoy it. But but it's

a totally different job. So you're a person in power, obviously, do you find yourself in position sometimes where you feel like, obviously this industry can be shady. Is it hard to kind of distinguish who friends are the real homies versus like I'm trying to climb up the louder and and have him help me in some way and that's the only intention, or with women even I'll be honest, I mean I never like, I just don't think about that stuff. I'll tell you why I'm I'm a real music guy.

I will never make a decision based off of this is somebody I like, he's a friend of mine, let me help or let me or this is something, because then everybody loses, you know, so I would, but that's got to be so awkward if you have a friend who's like you love your friend, right, and and they've been working on this band for years and years and years or whatever, and they're like, Aton, can you can

you hook it up? And how do you say? I think, first of all, giving an honest opinion is always, I mean that that is the best thing I could do as a friend, because absolutely, because I'll tell you some For some people, you know, let's talk about the flip side. You say, you know, follow your dreams. Follow your dreams. For some people that that don't have the talent or the skill set means a lot of parts of music. Maybe they belong on a different part of the music industry.

But I think for someone's not good enough, you know, I have to tell them. I feel like if if I don't, because people's like livelihood, it's their life. They put in sacrifice and like they they give up so much of their life, whether it's time or family or whatever it is. You know this personally because you were in a band, Yeah, I mean, I mean you give up your life for this. So it's like to give somebody the wrong advice or give them false hope is

actually the meanest thing I could do for them. Um. But but but then at the same time, there's a there's an art I'm very direct and straightforward, but there's always there's also a way of doing it where you're not offending somebody, you know, I think and and especially with like like even even great songwriters, like I said,

most of the time, they're not sending me hits. It's like it's like it's so you have to kind of find the right record from each person or whether it's a producer or writer, and I want them to keep sending me more music. I don't want them to get discouraged, you know. So so there's a way to Okay, so it's constructive. It's not like you stuck, go do something else, but you're like, hey, send me more music when you can. Yes,

it's definitely constructive. And and uh, always encourage everyone that you know keeps sending and don't don't get you know, because everyone as nice as you in the industry, because I don't think so. I mean, I don't think so. One of the things I always talked about with artists because I've had many independent artists on my show as well as people who are signed to a label. Obviously

there are benefits to being with the label. All you get the money, you get the team, You've got the aton, right, But indie artists feel like they some have sworn that they would never sign to label because of all the quote shady things that happened at a label. What do

you have to say to that? Um, Well, what I have to say is that like the moment you are, you know, you partner up with anybody, whether it's a record label or a manager or at least it's there's not like a thing where like you're not paying them a monthly fee to like, you know, work for you. And like, like what I'm saying is I hear, I

hear what? You don't make money unless you make money, don't succeed unless you succeed, right, You're not paying a publicist to make you feel like, why on earth would we be a part of a partner up with anybody?

If we if we don't plan on having success? So then why how comes so many smaller artists come to labels and then they kind of get or I've not experienced it personally, but they say they get put on the back burner in a sense, and then the bigger artists get all the money while the smaller artists are

kind of just forgotten about. I mean, that's that's not that's definitely like a scorn lover would say it, right, it's just like there, it's it's I will say, nothing to do with like a bigger or smaller artists or just more more like it's a more strategic thing. Like if you if you burn through all of your budget when you don't have the right song, then your your

longevity is going to be very short. You know that makes sense better to every every time you you release a song, And I look at it like this, like every time you release a song, you're pulling a favor, whether it's from a playlist or to add your song from a podcast, to feature your song, from your fans, to to to go support and listen to the music. And if the song isn't great, the next time, it's gonna be harder to do that. And then the next time,

I actually it's gonna be even harder. It's a lots, yeah, I feel like and everyone actually yeah, and and not every song has to be I mean you could you could release some stuff just for you know, viral, you know, from fans and stuff to keep everybody, like, you know, entertained and to make sure that people have new content.

But I think there's also an art and a strategy to pushing the button when you have the right thing and you see that there's And the crazy thing is we we live in a time where the moment something comes out, you're able to see real stats. How many people on you know, whether it's new Music Friday, whatever the playlist is, how many people are adding this song to the playlist when they hear it, how many people are skipping it, how long are they listening to you?

You can see all this stuff right now. All the data is available, so you were able to tell like it's almost like a case study before you even which is so helpful. It's amazing. Yes, you're able to see like right away, like even if it's a smaller case study, like even if it's with a thousand people that came across the song, how many people added to their personal playlists, how many people are replaying and how many people it's

there's so many things that you can data. We have so many tools now that didn't expect ten years ago from I do think that there's something to having a following on social media is obviously you get a bigger reach. So there's that, there's the stats you just talked about. I mean, there's there's the community you can find, the community that the artist vibes with. So I feel like there's a lot of advantages and makes your job much easier.

And patients is key. Yeah, it's so key to just have patience for any artists out there that is assigned to a company. I think, I mean well, and and and by the way, I mean there are I'm sure there are, like, like, I know how how my team works, you know how I don't know how you know, I mean every team works differently, So I'm sure there are nightmares stories as well. So so you sound like you kind of get in there with them and really support them like a family member. I mean, honestly, I do

it from the heart. Of course. I can tell. I'm a real music fan, obsessed with music. Yeah, I love hits, I love pop of all is your favorite artists right now that you're not representing a song guy, Okay, So I like songs and every genre well, I mean I go through every every week. It's funny because there's about I think I don't know what. I don't know if I've counted, but it's about a hundred songs on New

Music Friday. I think I guess like each week to come out and every Friday like recycles, so like all week, I'm trying to get through the whole playlist to hear everything. And I have my own personal playlists for every genre. So I make like a personal playlist for the genre, and I'll add to my personal for listening pleasure, and then I listened to them. I get excited because there's all this new stuff that some of it I know, some of it I I've heard once from and I've

added to my so it's exciting to listen. I actually listened as a fan too, and I get excited when I go to the playlist. I have a like a chill R and B playlist. Tell me what's on your chill R and B. That's like my favorite genre? Really? Oh yeah, one toll for days. Well there's the old school I like old school R and B. Well, yeah, so this is what I have, an old school R and B play but the chill R and B is

more newer stuff. It was actually inspired by I heard this, uh Sabrina Clardie who was signed to it to APG. She had I Belonged to You song that I was like, she's amazing. She's amazing, so that that song inspired me to do like. I think one of my friends works with her. I'm pretty sure. Does she have long, round, curly hair and she's beautiful. Okay, my friend Dina, I'm pretty sure works with her. She works with French Montana. Her sister works with The Weekend. I'm pretty sure you

know them. It's in your email. But yeah, tell me what's on here? I mean, I have oh my god, We'll have Anne Marie and there's Funny's two een movies. We have an Anne Marie that's like a pop ars and it's spelled like. One of them has a space, one has no space. There's an R and B one that's awesome. She's not signed to our company, but he's awesome. I don't know. A bunch of stuff in here. Just tell me, Like I mean, I have a lot of tell me one more. I want to get weird tonight

with my husband. Give me one more golden song. And here's a bunch of different things. What's the best one to like get? You know, a girl's over the music is going. I think I think Anne Marie Is that popping for you? It's just popping for all of us? Is it is a vibe? All right? Well, I'm glad we got to go through your some of your list because you're like the music king. So what advice I want to just wrap this up with, what advice you would give somebody who wants to make it in this industry.

It's a very, very tough industry to get into. Obviously, not everyone is as hands on compassionate as you helpful. I mean, I can a million adjectives to describe you, but I'm pretty sure our listeners get your vibe by now. You are clearly very influential in the in the space of music. That's why you're here. You literally pick people out of hundreds of songs that you're getting a day,

and you're making stars out of them. What advice would you give somebody who's listening to this podcast right now, who lives, breathes, dreams music like you, and they want to make it, or at least they want to do something in music that they don't have to be like the next Rihanna, but they want to be in the industry. What advice do you have to give to them? Well,

my advice is I mean a couple of things. One, if if you are an artist and you're you're set on that, I think you have to know the importance of having a great song origin because that will change everything. You know, we live in a time when stuff goes viral, and and you can't force people to make something go viral. They have to like it, to replay it or to reposted or whether it's a well. I mean, there's two

sides of something going viral. One is the actual content and the others they actually liked the record if so, it's two ways something go viral, and songs go viral just because people like the song that I've seen Obviously, like there's memes and stuff that's different. I'm talking about like a song that actually gets replayed and stuff. So but I think finding the right song is so important because it also will establish the direction for your project.

But I think outside of that, like as a general advice, I think you kind of have to find your lane and be realistic. There's so many sides of music. There's publishing and songwriting, and then there's like you know, the the live touring side, and the agents and and and management, and I mean there's so many sides to music. You want to kind of be realistic and see where do I fit in the best and where what I perform

the best. You know, some people are incredible at at a marketing and creative thinking, and there's so many departments at a record label too, so it's like there's some people that are amazing from marketing department, not necessarily in are some people that are better at an are It's like, but I think you kind of got to find out where you fit like the best, and where you can

be one of the best. Like what can you be one of the best in the world at, Not like, oh I'm good at this, Like what can you be like incredible at and find your lane there and have some kind of I think side hustle in the meantime to hold you over so you don't have a timeline like it's okay if it takes you, uh, five years, it's okay if it takes you six months. I mean, I think you don't really know how long it's going

to take. So if you have something else that actually generates income in the meantime so that you don't have to like kind of you know, fall on on on your face like so early, right, because that's when people quit. Yes, and you didn't quit, and you just kept your hustles going and you didn't just have a side hustle. By the way, it wasn't singular you. You didn't sleep, but you loved it, so it was okay. I get that. It was so nice having you here today. I just

to prove the point. Last time I saw him, he was bringing one of his artists, and and now I'm You're on the other side of the table. So I'm really glad we got to get to know each other a little more. Um, I want all of your artists to come into our show, will play their music. I would love that. And you have one last chance to give a shout out to one more artist and we'll end on them. Oh and that's and that's a big pressure because we're ending on it. But this doesn't mean

this is your favorite one. It just means it's another one you want people to check out. Well, yeah, so there's this, this, there's artists I just signed kill Boy. That's incredible. What makes it so different is that she actually produces her own stuff. And she's not only an

amazing artist, she's also an amazing writer and producer. She produces better than half the people that I get stuff from, and she's like, you just sign her, Yeah, and she's actually making her own hits, Like I mean, it's are you super excited about her? And she's smart, She's also open, she loves collaborating. She's just really really awesome, great energy and just all around she She already has two songs on Spotify. I'm gonna have to check that out, and

you guys have to check it out. But guess what I'm gonna do, you guys, solid I'm gonna end this show with a little kill boy baby way the fun, fun, fun fun, everybody's give way the fucking biscos on phone and kin the fact, don't leave us on a love like a thing for crooking on even want the cut in back. There's somebody fucker spending punching over petty percents

and now I want to just pay my bread. Don't wn a couple of Lincoln and Pink with the purple on the mesode this time he's gonna have to spend I know nothing day once I have a point, but I so pay me. And there's got a way, the way, the way, the fun, the sugars, the baby's maid. Now it's a little fish, no fading like some crazy health not tho he was saying, I'm at the studio. I was looking for me like white a water wait a

wait a water ready fu wa. I'm come turning on the down thing, picking my assess, and don't never ze me for ship, because not to stay while I still get my house and ducking brides. A bridge is still as an unline bases. And now we're taking down to if I was god to step it down in the bridges down to its last, they're just not the only thing you know to do a range kish and fishing, but hill because he always misses high. I really would have never been so down there if it wasn't for

the wooded ship. But I never say thank you. Just shut my dick, Can my skate up the shot kick and leave a little ship? Don't read the fun? Got fucking little little little? Why don't fun? Behind the influence of the production of I Heart Radio and t DC Media