Voices of Revolution

gonna play that right now. Yeah. So, UM, would you guys give or you Stephanie, if you'd like give an overview in your own words of Whitey's protests started obviously like the kind of foreign headline is uh bus or a public transit? You know, fair increase leads to protests. My understanding is that's just sort of kind of the spark that lit a bunch of tinder on fire. Yeah, but I'm interested in Yeah, what what you blame it on? Yeah?

We the last year we are participating in different products for these a different think about um problems that we have almost the almost started with the Pinal chest, with the queue, start about the common with the pension plan system and in the education that is really high goals and uh, the health care problem and really expensive transportation and hum and the commomale commale commer Yeah, the minimum

wages very low. So yeah, it's like you said, um where what initially started this protest was a group a bunch of students who were evading UH the metro so to protest the rise in the fair which is the second or third time they've raised the metro uh in the last three years. Um. And so it's the most expensive metro in South America. And and even though for someone from the United States it might seem it's still very cheap or how are they only protesting over ten

more cents or whatever? But um, in Chile, if you make the minimum wage, you could be spending almost of your wage on the metro. It is very expensive here. And UH. So what happened is a lot of students were getting together as like a big group, and so there would be hundreds of them and they would all rush into the metro together and jump over the turnstiles

and so the uh that's how it all started. And then the police were very heavy handed in their reaction and got very violot and then it got kind of worse from there, and so the protest exploded into more of a general protest because Um, there's been a lot of problems in Chile and there's a lot of um inequality and a lot of things that have never been fixed since the since the dictatorship, so they're still using

the same constitution that was written by Pino j and um. Yeah, and there's lots of other things, Yeah, the corruption of Pinera, the current president, and then a lot of protests over the last couple of years about the pension plans, the a FP and so of company, UM, selling land of for hydro electric companies too only for business. And it's really interesting because in Chilen almost uh ten family are they have control uh for of the they are they

they are they have control with the core control rica. Yeah. So it's it's similar to the United States, where there's you know, a couple of hundred billionaires that are kind of controlling every day, but in Jilian it's literally ten families and these ten families are very very rich and have a lot of control in the country. UM. But but yeah, so it's it's about a lot of things. UM, the protest now and uh would you you're walking in

this no? Please continue? Please continue? Now in this Um you know this uh Perio Perio of the Pineria that is the president. Is it the second um Perio second term term? Yeah, they has So I think all the Chilean think that the cops in Um in the terms of the Pinera, they are more aggressive this year in all the term. So there's also, yeah, a big issue

with like the militariation, militarization of the of the police. Yeah, so the police are really heavy, and like she was saying, especially with under under Piera, the police respond to often peaceful protests with with dear guys and um and violence. And now of course there's been declared the state of emergencies and now you have the military in tanks in

the streets too. And why you said that the police have gotten more aggressive and more violent this year, Why would you do you have do is there a reason behind that? Do you think like, is there some sort of cause to that that you can see? No, it's not any reason. It's only a strategy of the government. But it is a bad idea. And in Um a couple of months ago we saw some car of the cuffs, uh driving in the in the passel really traditionally the center of the city and uh tear gas. Oh yeah, yeah.

A couple of months ago there was some crazy protests and the police were We're driving through like plazid there almost like the downtown, like the center of the historic center of town and and and throwing tear guys at

people who aren't even protesting. And um, but to answer your question, I think that it just has to do with the government, because, um, a couple of years ago the president was Bachelte, who is more center left, And so I think the police now under Vinera, understand that they kind of have carte blanche to do whatever they want and that they won't be reprimanded for um violence against protesters. And when this when this current wave of like heavy street actions broke out, were y'all there for

sort of the beginning of that. Were you there and sort of the first day that this like really kicked off into um, you know, a citywide sort of thing rather than just kind of a fair protest. Yeah, definitely, so we UM we live about step six or seven blocks from the Plaza Talia, which is the Metro Baca Vado, which is like the center of downtown, and it's the historic place where protests always start and and so we're

kind of in the thick of it. And then also we are right by this intersection where when the protest really got serious two nights ago, Um, the there were five buses that were burned right at our intersection. So, um, yeah, it's kind of right outside our door. And uh, what do you one of the Obviously, I think, probably internationally, the most famous image from these protests so far is

the headquarters of that electric company um being burned down. Um. And it's usually most of the sources I've seen have ascribed it to the protesters, but I have seen a lot of people saying that, um, it couldn't have been protesters because the fire started on the floor that only a limited number of people have access to. Obviously, I don't think anyone can prove to a point of certainty

one way or the other what happened. Yet, Um, do they all have sort of a take on that, an opinion on that what you think is most likely what most people seem to believe. Yeah, it's it's weird with the busses the same us. It's crazy to believe because uh, with with the problem with the buses, m we saw a couple of videos and one of these busses was sculpted for the Cups and really weird situations and almost the bus they put in the place for the people

can learn in for angry and for the problem. So this is not the first time that the Cups makes stuff crazy like that. So you can think about and can using your imagination to to think that it's real,

it's it's fake. Is yeah, like you know, we're not typically uh like conspiracy theorist people, but as far as like what a lot of people have been talking about is with both the n L Electric Company UM, with the fire that happened on their their staircase right there fire escape UM, and there was a number of suspicious things about it. You know, it's started on the eleventh floor,

so it's like, how could a protester do that? And I don't know, UM, And of course it only burned that the fire escape and it didn't touch anything about the main building and there's so there's a lot of suspicion here UM of that. And then uh, the idea that possibly it was the police, so the government who started that as in a way to justify um, bringing in the military and all of that and starting the curfew. And what's that thing is very similar is uh these

five buses that were burned outside of our apartment. UM. It was very strange because yes, there's there's almost never five buses all right next to each other on the street in the corner and UM. And then there's also been videos that have been passed around what'sapp and UM social media where you see that these busses were like discontinued, so they were already like in bad situation, their bad shape.

And then there's a video that's been passed around of the police like escorting one of these busses, like very slowly, almost like they're escorting it here so they can burn it and again use it as justification, um to ratchet up the police response. So it's hard to say, and you know, you don't want to be a conspiracy theorist, but certainly there's uh, there there's suspicious things happening in

that regarded and on the street here. Almost every chile and that we've talked to has has said that they pretty much believe that it was the police that that we're doing that. And in terms of what you've seen in person from the police response to all this, how would you how would you describe how you've watched the police, uh deal with the protests so far? Like what have you seen? Um? Just a lot of tear gas, a

lot of um the water cannons, mostly tear gas. Uh. Just in in our experience, we've been kind of playing it safe. We weren't getting really too too far into the extreme protest. UM. We kept trying to go to the center to Plaza Talia, but we kept getting pushed back by tear guys us every time. UM. So. And we've seen videos of extreme violence, the police beating people and it's even hitting them with their cars, extreme stuff

and shooting them. Yeah, and there's been a lot of videos we've seen on social media of the police shooting innocent protesters not doing anything. But as far as what we saw with our our own eyes, um, mostly just a lot of tear gas. But sometimes it would be just like peaceful protesters and the police would drive by and literally throw a tear gas out the window a canister and then drive away. So it's also it's also interesting some people have been commenting that it's a little different.

It seems different the police strategy this time in comparison to previous protests, whether they're not so much like cantling the protesters or um, not so much getting into one. I want physical like fistfights, um, which is a kid. Some people are saying, you know that they watched the protesters to get more extreme and burn more things and loot,

so that that justifies what they're doing. Yeah, and divide the people because right now you have the more extreme external people going and staff destroying the city, destroying the pharmacy or the supermarket, and the people like us that we take the the store when you shake with the spoon all day and and when the police, um, you

can see the police and you need to run. So uh So the government, I think they want to divide the feeling of the people, the feeling of the protests and the union of the people and um yeah, um, so yeah, they're they're just trying to divide the people so that the people who might sympathize with the protesters will say, no, they've gone too far. They started to be burning things or or taking down h street lights

or or looting, um supermarkets, um so. Yeah, and uh as for this curfew, like how long can you see it last? It's so extreme it doesn't seem like civil life could continue if it goes on for too much longer. Yeah, well, it just started last night. Last night it started in o'clock, and then tonight they started at seven o'clock. So it is very extreme and the like I was saying to you uh in texts that I mean, if it if it were to go on for two more weeks, it

would be insane. I can't imagine that that would happen. It would shut down the entire city. Um. But at the same time, I don't like tonight's protests were crazier than last night. I don't know. I don't see how it stops because Panierra doesn't seem like everything from the government has been just attacking the protesters, not taking any

responsibility for the action of the police. Yeah, and I don't know if that he shanged the price of the ticket boss, if we are going to record the peace in the city, the people have has too much angry, So I don't know if we are going to be

confor um like satisfied. Panierra has mentioned that he might um he might freeze the price increase for the Metro, but at this point it's like that's not going to be enough to satisfy people, because, as we mentioned, the protest is about things much worse than the metro fare. So uh yeah, I mean, like, I don't think people

will stop protesting in less Panera resigns. The people are out there shouting and calling for his resignment, resignation, and um, you know, I don't obviously I don't think he wants to do that either. And if you could send out a message to people from around the world, Americans in Europeans and everyone else not in Chile listening to this, what is it that you want other people to know about what's happening in your country? UM, I don't know.

When when we live in um in Colombia. Um, the most uh come on stuff that the people ask us. It was why we leave Chile when Chile is so good, so good country and all the system is so so good. But the problem is that the problem is Chile has a lot of problems for a long time, almost started with the queue and we didn't have any solution for this. So yeah, we are not a gay. We have problems. We have a huge problems in the world. Uh, didn't

know any like that. So yeah, I guess I would just say to people that, UM, I hope that people are aware of what the Chileans are protesting for, and that they understand that it's not about the match row fair. It is not only about paying ten cents more, um, that it's about deeper, profound issues at that are at the core of this country, um, like for example, still having the constitution that was written by a dictator and

things like that. UM. And so yeah, like Stephanie was saying, uh, kind of that people maybe need to understand that that life is really not so easy in Chile, or or maybe it is easy um for of the country, but a lot of the people here are really struggling and uh. And the minimum wage is really really low and uh and there's a lot of fundamental problems and and that's

why I think this is happening. So I would just ask people to, um, unders stand a little bit about the other issues with them, with the constitution and the corruption and the pension plans and the minimum wage and all of those. And and even though I don't condone looting or violence or anything like that, UM, I would ask that people have some some empathy for the people

who are out here protesting for a better life. And obviously, I think that the most well known protests occurring in the world right now are the ones in Hong Kong, and I think the tactics there, I've seen them used encrypted by protest movements in a number of other countries that are going on right now. Have you seen that have any impact on the tactics people are using on the ground, UM. I know that I've seen a lot of people sharing videos on social media about like the

Hong Kong protesters. UM, I like diffusing the tear gas canisters. You know, they'll put a traffic pone on top of it and then pour some some sort of chemical solution in there and it it neutralizes it. So I know that I haven't actually seen ay Chilean's do that, but I know a lot of people were talking about that. UM, and well we have seen we were just being watched by a drone. UM. But I don't think the facial recognition here in Chile is as strong as Hong Kong. UM.

But yeah, I think that part of it is. UM, what's happening in Hong Kong and what's happy in Ecuador right now is probably probably influencing the protesters here. Um. And it seems just in the last week that protests

have started in a number of other countries. UM. Is there any sort of feeling, at least from you, that this is part of kind of a global You know, you mentioned earlier in the interview that a lot of some of the problems that are happening in Chile right now are are similar to someone that we're dealing with in the United States and others, just like concentration of wealth.

Do you have a sense that, like the mass uprising is going on in a number of nations, are all sort of part of something global that's bigger than just the movements in the individual countries. UM, I don't know. I would like to thank so, UM. I would like to think that, you know, hopefully we are opening our eyes to the failures of neoliberalism. But UM, I don't know. I don't know, if I don't know if there's there is a grander movement here sick I started. Still, yeah,

but I don't connect. Movement doesn't clar am super milio. So another thing is that, Um, we have the left maybe is growing stronger and um, using more forceful methods because of the growth of the extreme rights in in uh you know, all over the world, um, but especially feeling that in South America, UH with in Brazil and then also in Chile where you have, um, someone like Caste who was a presidential candidate who is extremely to

the right, even more so than the current president. And and so I think that the the the maybe in some ways the left is responding to that and a fear of the extreme authoritary and return to dictatorship, right like you have um with Bosonaro in Brazil or you know cast who who who knows could be president of Chile one day. Well, thank you both very much for your time. I really appreciate you talking with me today. UM cool man. Yeah, that's all I wanted to get

into right now. UM. Obviously I'll be in touch with you as I figure out kind of my schedule and and please do keep me updated on on y'all and what you see happening outside your door. Okay, Yeah, definitely, I'm happy to send you some photos if you make it down here. Um, well, we'll show you around and and yeah, send me a link to your podcast. Yeah, absolutely, Thank you both so much for your time. Okay, cool man, you have a good one, you too. By Okay, I'm back.

And that was the Chile interview, and next we have my interview with Jody Ayoub over in Lebanon, So I'm going to play that now. Hey Joey, Hey, Hey, sorry, is this a good time still? Yeah? I'm doing good. How are you doing today? Yeah? Uh? Well, UM, I guess we should just get into it. I'm I'm trying to. I'm doing as much reading as I can to try to understand what's happening um in Beirut right now. Um. And you know, obviously, UM, there's a lot to keep

track of. You know, I've been, I've been. I've been covering Iraq and Syria for years, and I would say I barely have a minimal level of competence in either of those nations politics. So I'm pretty new to focusing

on what's happening in Beirut. Um. From what I've listened to or been able to read, it seems like, um, like the thing that the news is crediting for these uprising or for the uprising might not be the right word, but for these protests is attacks on what's app um when I've I've listened to or read things that other

people in the area have written. Um, it seems like the wildfires that swept the country, and like the fact that this helicopter fleet that was purchased by you know, volunteers and then like allowed to kind of, um decay into obsolescence. Like the fact that just in general the government has been very ineffective at dealing with major problems

like those wildfires is a much bigger reason for the protests. Um. But I'm interested in kind of your telling of like why this has all happened, um and sort of how it's how it where you see things as being at right now. Yeah, So it's it's a bit of both, and obviously it's much more than that. At the same time, the wildfires that was last Monday, so that's the fourteenth, the night of lasted about eight hours and it was

what hectares. Yeah yeah, and those putting that we lost basically years worth off peas lost usually, so I think there was something that clem against peas. That's horrible. That's usually an average Yeah. Uh So that obviously pissed a lot of people off because the government was utterly incapable on reading whatever we used to deal with it. You had pretty much we haven't had seven servants paid in

like twenty years. Of these all volunteer forces, and you had you even had like this a defense forces from the Palestinian camps that stepped up. They helped, and you had basically volunteers just doing it themselves. There wasn't really anything until two things happened that put them off. One is Greece cyclists in Jordan basically sent some you know, helicopters and whatever. And the other thing is we got

lucky because it started gaining the day after. Yeah, so that's pretty much why, like we the damage was more or less limited, if you want. And so the fact that after all of this, just like a day later or something, the first thing the government can think of the ing to impose it acts on what'sapp, which is obviously free service that people use because actual phone services

are extremely expensive in Lebanon. That was kind of you know, as everyone has been saying that, you know, that whole sort of book becomes back then, and then you had protests on that like that Thursday evening. So that's basically a week now. And in that protest, you had lots of gold blogs, you had basically some of the usual protests that we have been seeing before. And during that protest,

one of this if you want symbols, that became this. Uh. I don't know the point of unity, I guess is there was a bodyguard of one one politician took out his gun, started scaring people. People were not scared, they were actually fighting back, and then he had this woman who kicked him. Uh. And that became this sort of meme and it became super popular and that kind of galvanized everything. And then after that it became sort of like a daily so more people come down, there's a

bit of a quassion than the next day. Even more people come down a familiar story if you if you see what I'm going with this and now how it's the number eight and people are sitting the streets and it's way more than justin my roots. And it was you know, it was the biggest protests so far. We're something like a quarter of the entire population that got out into the streets. Am I am? I right on that. It was like a million some odd people. Yeah, yeah,

that's the numbers I've seen. Is something like a million, like one point two million to one point seven million, and Lebanon is something like five million or six million if you want to us as well. That's almost unbelievable and percentage of the computation. Yeah, I can't imagine protests of that scale ever occurring in the United States, Like it would literally be one of the most significant happenings in the history of our nation. Does does it feel like that to you, Like this is one of the

most important things that's happened in the history of Lebanon. Yes, for like for two reasons, of even three seasons, I was involved, So I kind of give some backcount here. I was involved in the protests those that follow the waste crisis, as in as in like organizing its early weeks. And one thing that happened then that it's not happening now is that back then it was really central centralized to Baywood, and you sort of had like a sort of middle class um focused to it. If you want.

Now it is completely spontaneous, there's actually no organizers, and it is babout is actually not even the most impressive one. You have protests in Tripoli that have been going on every single day. You have protests in nobody here in the end of our valley in um zoom zoom must and um shrump and sue here in the South. I'm trying forgetting many other places. You pretty much like have over a hundred or two hundred hundred vote blocks every single day right now. Uh. And it is utterly spontaneous.

It's not there's not there's no organization behind it. So that's like really one of the main I kind of mentioned both at the same time, the fact is not centralized in Bayboot and the fact that it's it's spontaneous and you have much more of an awareness if you want that, like we tried. It kind of led to more or less good stuff in twenty sixteen, but not enough. Like the Baywood Madinity campaign during the municipal elections of Baywood kind of hinted that it was things were going

in the right direction. But then you had the elections last year and I think we had like one independent or two independents that are actually got in parliament, and that was about it. Because the whole system usually Lebanon is univided between much eight coalitions and much vote in coalition. They kind of came together last year to defeat a civil society foret and they've been doing this time and

time again. The current government is a government that historically has actually been of parties that were actually opposed to one another. How it is a future movement and jam one bestie is pre patriotic movement, not to mention, I'm uh, you know, these are coalitions that kind of get formed on and often it sence depending on the circumstances. And what can you tell us about sort of the nature

of how the security forces have responded to this. I can tell you that, like a lot of what I've seen on Twitter has been you know, there's been some pictures of like Lebanese soldiers, you know, with tears in their eyes. Uh. And I guess sort of the thing we're led to take out of that is that, Um, even the Lebanese like police and military, very sympathetic to the protests. Um. I I can't tell what's actually happening on the ground. So I'm wondering what is your what

is your take on that? Oh that's not ideal? No, And I mean, oh sorry you you cut out for a second. Um, could you start your answer to that. You heard the question right, Yes, sorry, Yeah, it depends on So it depends on when and where. You did have some instances where the Lebanese army was sort of uh, his saint like it did it actually stood in between corotesters and what we would call shabbihas or some elements of the Sectain parties that are basically lad loose to

intimidate people, if not the worse. But in other cases, like when we were do you guess last week, that was living his army as well doing it. So it really depends on when and where. There is definitely a sentiment I think among Lebanese protesters. I don't share it personally, but it's definitely the majority that, um, you basically need to defend the army and try and get them on your side in a sense at least individual and individual's capacity.

That hasn't happened. I don't think it will happen, but that hasn't happened as if now, because I wanted to read on this that the main difference between the army in Lebanon and the army in other places in the Middle East North Africa is that the army in Lebanon is not the song before the song is forced in Lebanon.

That's Hesballa and every like. Basically, you know, everyone knows that, and so it's not seen as uh oh, you know, we might have a military coup or anything like that, because that's not really in the realm of of reality if you want. So, most of the violence, again depending on where we're talking, but quite a lot of the most brutal anyway violence has come from the sectarian parties.

So yesterday there was lots of violence in nobody m by Hesvola and I'm a gangs basically shapiha, and you have something like training five or thirty people who are injured and had to go to the hospital. And in the evening yesterday you had also again i'll just use the word shapiha of the three Patriotic movement in another area not too far from where I live, that attacked people as well. Actually I'm not sure how many people

were injured in that one. It wasn't as serious as the one in the South, but it was fairly serious as well. So you do have these tensions between a a spontaneous um if you want sense sense of the fact that we're getting at the point where we can

no longer tolerate thirty years of this. You know, two days ago was the thirtieth anniversary commemoration whatever after Toteve Agreement, the agreement that was signed in that ended Delibanese Civil War, and they signed it in the city off and Saudi Arabia, and that a system sort of codified sectarianism even more

than it was before the war. It did a number of things I won't get into now it's not that prelevant, but what it did really is make it almost basically impossible for anyone to identify for in any other way other than with your sect. So the fact that I am from a certain sect, it doesn't matter if I am a believer or not, in atheists or not, None

of these things matter. What matters is that this, this is your sect, and so you vote according to that, and you vote according to sect and according to where your family is supposedly originally from. So for example, I can vote in a Shefi, but I don't live in a Vie. I live in a different part of Lebanon. And that's part of the reason why it's been so difficult to really organize, because, for example, when there was a municipal elections in two thousands sixteen, uh, something like

a quarter of storry. Like, there's four times more people who actually live in baby Woods than people who are adjusted to to vote in bay Woods. So you have many of my friends who live and I don't live in Baywood, but they lived and they live in baby Woods, and so they were helping organized people who are officially registered in Baywood, including people who don't live there, to

vote there. So that's kind of just like a small example of why it's been so difficult on all levels to really organize for an alternative to the sectank system that we have now. And it does seem like what

we're seeing. And again, you know, this is my my perception as very much an outsider, that some of this sectarianism is starting to fade um in the face of kind of an understanding that more solidarity between groups is necessary if you're going to actually deal with sort of the problems that are making it so expensive to just

live a basic life and let it on. Is that is that what you feel you are seeing or would you say I'm kind of off base there, No, No, that's definitely what's happening that that's really been that is the most explorant thing that's happening, and that's why it really feels different than before. Again, as someone like I've been involved in protests since I think two thousand and ten was my first one, and I went I went

to the very defenced thousand eleven. There was some stuff in between, and then two thousands fifteen was the big one, and then you had, as I said to us in

sixteen thousand eighteen, but there's nothing. Really what's happening now Now you have a chance in triplely a Sooni majority down the north saying like openly and people like in the hundreds of thousands repeating that these chants like we are with you nobody, which is a majority Shire area until the death, and we are like we are I don't know how to translate this, but we stand in solidarity with nobody and with with you know, Bayhood and

and su and all of these other areas. And there is very much a sense that, um, it's it's something has been broken, like the in a good way, Like there is a way of doing things that is extremely difficult. That even if people stop contesting today, which I don't think it's gonna happen anyway, that it is impossible for the government to just continue and do things as they have been doing so far. And one symbolic way that

that has been happening has been through extremely hood. If you want, insults that people have been throwing against uh politicians, like notably that this is the song that you have been repeating about see, which is basically fuck his mother.

That's basically what it means. Yeah, and that that has that has been repeated on against pretty much all major politicians, including although much more shindy with someone like Hassan against someone like Hassan and some of the other leaders that have had this sort of most sectarian events to their politics, even though they're all part of this extariance system. Now, that's just the fact that like fuck your mother, you know, essentially is a chance like that, you know you're talking.

Lebanon is particularly Beirut is kind of a very very much a city of the world, but Lebanon, and again, correct me if I'm wrong here, much more traditional in a lot of aspects, like the fact that people are saying things like this um that are so explicit and so kind of obscene is a marker of how extreme the situation has gotten. That that that that would even be seen as acceptable like that that seems very um

shocking to me. Um. Yeah, I mean these insults are very common, but they are not common towards the politicians. They're not common towards people people that you usually you would orm is like you would give them on a griffics like sir and Mr Your excellency, you know, that

sort of thing. And the fact that you have people explicitly when they're being interviewed like what if no one if people who aren't going down to the seats what they've been doing basically for the past week is just opened some of the channels LBC for example, and you have like the split sky into six different you know, areas of Lebanon, and people just being interviewed and giving

their opinion. And the sense that you get, whether you're on the seats or what you just at home, is that there is something that is no longer taken for granted, which is that these people have light time and time and time and time again. And of course those in civil society as you might call them, all the activists or even the working classes that are the most affected,

these are known like no, none of this is serious. Sorry, none of this is new, but there is something about how all of these things happen at the same time that I don't want to say that people just walk up to day because obviously that's not how things happen. But it's just that as we say, like the the

wall of fear, if you want, has been broken. That's a bad translation, but that's basically what it means, and that, um, we are getting to the point where even in Nobody, which as I said, it's in the south very much an area where has Well and Emma have a lot of influence, where you have yesterday it was Ammal and has Well as shop attacking protesters, and then the next day people in Nobody, you go, there're still as we're speaking, out on the streets and something like an hour ago,

two members of the municipal council often about a year because of being forced by the people to his art essentially, so you've been having these um pressures. And just before we spoke, something like uh, just before speaking to us, something two hours ago, the President Michionan also spoke and it was such a contrast to what's been happening. It's eight days after we started. He hasn't said a single thing before now and the film, which it says, the

live but it is very obviously edited. You have lots of different scenes that keep on changing. It's obviously in edit. And he looks exhausted because he's fairly old, and what he said is utterly disconnected from reality, Like he could have said nothing and it would have made absolutely not different. In fact, I think he just passed people more off at this point. And let me let me think of

the right word to phrase this question. Um, do you like what what is it that you think would be most you know, most of the audience listening to this, most of people listening this are going to be you know, Americans, Europeans. What what would you say if you could try to get just a couple of basic facts to them? What is the most important thing for them to understand about

what is happening in Lebanon right now? And is there any way for them to help and to express solidarity with the Lebanese people who are currently protesting against their government. Well for the latter is I guess a bit easier quickly, like faster to answer, because there have been lots of dis protests, So I would guess befo enshoy your support to these people there because you're not the Lebanese U pretty much everywhere. Um, So that's that's a second question.

The first question is if I need if I would summarize it, there was a civil war in between n and ninety ninety. Uh. I am of the generation that was born right after I was one, but UH to use it symbolically, to use that example in bit symbolically, just before I was born, there was the Amnesty Law that was passed which gave immunity to most crimes committed during the civil war. So most people who ended up in power after that were active participants in the civil war.

One of the most notorious member examples of that is never hipl here was the leader of the Ammal movement and has been leader of the Amal movements since the seventies. He has been speaking of parliament since nine so he's

been speaking of parliament for my entire existence basically. And this is someone like right now, there was a joke before UH that you know, we're fighting against sectarianism, and that means that the president, which currently has to be a Christian and the Prime Minister has to be a Sunni Muslim, and the steak of Parliament has to be

a Chiao Muslim. The joke was that even if even if we get into a secular government, the member of Steak of Arlims or it will still been a Selby because he's been across all of the governments that have passed so far in the past few still so decades. So Lebanon has a sectarian system, a confessional system. I guess it is the official world, but we just call

it which is sectarian, as if being sacked. And the way that works is that it basically makes it impossible to organize politically or even to vote outside of your set. There might be some like you might be in, like the sect being Christian, and you might vote for someone who's a different kind of Christian, but it is almost impossible to vote, for example, for it who is als to New Usia, depending on when we're talking about the

municipal general elections and that sort of thing. So it has kind of um consolidated differences that sort of were thought out during the war. If you want, I'm grossly over simplifying the Civil War here. Obviously, it consolidated these identities and it made them. Impart, it made it impossible for those of us who want to identify simply on a civil level, like as only as any citizens. It made it impossible for us to only do that. And this is what the past street has basically been challenging.

And we've been seeing much more of a sentiment that we are doing this as one people basically, and that it doesn't matter whether you're Shias and you who's or Christian.

There are certain things that affect obviously everyone in corruption, poverty, all of that, and we need to starve these and one of the things I'm interested in, so I'm covering obviously we're in the middle of, um a number of different political uprisings around the world right now, a substantial number um and I mean I know that in Catalonia and to a lesser extent in Chile, the Hong Kong protests have served as as a sizeable sort of like

inspirational factor in how people have approached resisting the government. Have you seen any imp act in terms of like the tactics of those protests on much being done right now in Lebanon. I've seen some people talk about it, and it was mentioned on the seats I've been going to the baby with once and some people on Twitter sharing these tactics on that people in Hong Kong have

been doing, but I wouldn't say that. Like one of the issues that I think is common in Lebanon is how in the world, Oh could you could you say again? You cut off for a second? There? Yes, like there there there is a sense and that you sort of cut off from the world and that your links are the dire spoga links. So you might have people who know it, a bit about fans, a bit about Brazil or America or Canada or whatever. But that's the extent of how internationals things can get if you want. That's

the limit of it. So you don't have as much of an influence from the rest of the world outside

of the Arab majority world. So you have had some sentiments in UH from what I've seen, primarily in Tripolin growth and in they route towards for example, sending solidarity to to the Neese protesters at the time or two iraqis right now, you have this a bit, but primarily the overwhelming majority are simply focusing on what's in front of them essentially, and so because this system that we're talking about has really hampered Lebanon, in the Lebanese and

people who live in Lebanon as well, because don't forget there are also Palestinians and Syrians and my domestic workers and so on. It has hampered everything to the point where it's just become impossible to look at anything else. And so my hope is that we solve this issue now. And I don't even think we're going to fully solve it obviously, but we start putting cracks in the system,

and this will allow people in Lebanon. I think maybe that's the optimist in me to sort of regain a bit of confidence and that hopefully we can lead to us learning more things in a more long term. It's just that right now, the struggle has really been to maintain the momentum every single day. That's stially been the main thing. And because Lebanon is so divided by region, you don't have a train or a metro or you know,

something that really links the region. Everything is just by cod it's been very easy for the sectarian parties to sort of luck off if you want an area from the other, and that's sort of been what's happening but thankfully, you know, through the Internet, social media, but also through some of the coverage on the news, you've been able we've been able to see what's been happening in other areas, and that has sort of sancthened individual contests as well.

And that seems it's like, that's part of what seems like we're kind of watching the worst nightmare of the powers that be in Lebanon, Oica, which is these different groups that have been split by sort of sect um realizing that they all have much more in common with each other as fellow working class people, as people who have to you know, who can't count on um, you know, stealing millions of dollars from the larger chunk of the country,

like the normal folks in Lebanon. Um realizing they have much more in common with one another than with the people who run the country. Um. That that seems like what's happening, and it seems like the worst case scenario for the people in charge. Yeah, yeah, that's definitely what's happening. And actually go down some numbers to show what we're like, what we're talking about when we're talking about the levels

of inequality in Lebanon. This is as of and it's got worse worse it's worth and since the top one per cent receives approximately quota of the total national income, which means that the bottom fifty is left with ten percent of the national income the bottom makes and this is in US. The study was done in Uros. Bottom makes about three thousand euros per year. The middle forty percent, and this speaks to how there isn't there isn't a really middle class anymore. You sort of have a class

that's in between. The middle forty percent makes eleven thousand euros a year, and then it goes up and up and up. The top ten percent makes eighty one thousand, the top one percent makes three hundred and thirty four thousand, and then the top zero point one percent makes one point five million, and the top zero point zero zero one percent makes forty seven million. So you would have in it in it in a city like Tripoli, which is one of the poorest, is third poor, is the

biggest city basically the second biggest city in Lebanon. And as the pool is said that you have I think two or three or four I can I kind of keep losing kount of who's the billionaire and it was a multi hundred millionaire billionaires in a Jimmy Harti and and start having the abot from there and there are billionaires. This is just an example. This is sort of the sort of situation. And these are the numbers that we have.

There are numbers that we don't have. We don't know, for example, on the side of Bottler, how much money is coming for Iran. We don't know all of these numbers, and we don't we don't know how much of the money that these Lebanese politicians, warlords, oligogus, whatever, have, how much of it is actually in Lebanon. You have people that were mentioned in depend on my papers a few years ago because they have you know, offshore accounts here

and there. So in Swiss banks are always mentioned as but in the contest because it's so common for us to just assume and obviously it's accurate that they have so much money in Swiss banks. This this is just really like a a taste of of this situation that's here. So it's not just that people suddenly are realizing that they're you know, old Lebanese and they have these things in commons. It's not that in itself isn't really new.

It's more that the way the only ways people have been able to mobilize so far because of the combination of Stanism as we mentioned, which is consolidated and basically made into law, but also the issues of the lack of public space, the issues of it's very difficult to actually physically get from one area to the other because of that, because of the lack of public transports. Sorry, it's been just exceremely difficult to kind of shape the system hard enough to allow independence at least as a

start to get in and show just by example. It's been basically impossible to show by example that an alternative is possible. So the hope here is at least that's what That's the sentiment that I'm getting that most people are hoping that this government follows what comes after. It depends on who you talk to. Some someone is sort of some sorry, some people want this sort of technocratic government that temporarily replaces it and then you have early elections.

Other people are just going for early elections directly, and the they hope basically is that this time, just as in last year we were we almost got a few independence this time we will be able to do way more because the people, the septaining warlords and oligogus that united again as US, are extremely unpopular and this time, hopefully or you know, next, in this imaginary future election, they will be less able to mobilize in the same way that they did before. Well, Joey, thank you so

much for talking with me today. Is there anything else you wanted to talk about or wanted to mention before we we draw this to a close. I would just ask people to basically keep an eye out on what's happening.

I don't know if it will get worse. I don't I'm hoping not, but it's very difficult to predict what some of these sectarian parties how they will react if they feel that the only thing they have to say in power is to basically show some folks because they all have a diminishas and that's obviously the worst case scenario. The best case scenario is that the pressure is so overwhelming and so um uh decentralized. So I'll mention this

as a last thing. The fact that it's so decentralized means that if, for example, as Well wants to crack down on people in Nabatia. You will have people in Tripoli telling those people in Nabati that we stand with you. And there is this popular I think it went viral video of in Tripoli the third Night or something, people chanting. Before chanting Scott read the scottanism that people want to the downfall of the regime, which obviously have been a

popular chant obviously from two thousand eleven. Now he adopted much more strongly in Lebanon. Besides that, they said something along the lines of if they shut down all the squares,

our square will remain open. The triple the squares, I can't know, uh, And that's sort of the end, not that I can, like they know that, I can end on because it really shows that it would be very difficult, not impossible, but very difficult for their ruling establishment, these sectarian warlords or regogus to shut all of this down that I think is very difficult for them to do. Well. Thank you, Joey, Thank you for talking with me, and and thank you for sharing um your impressions of what's

what's going on in your country. I really do appreciate it. Thank you, thanks very time. Yeah, and last we have my interview with Kabbad, so I asctually conducted this through WhatsApp. I asked her some questions and she responded to me. So the first question was what is your understanding of the agreement reached by the SDF, which are the military forces of Rojaba in the Syrian regime. The memorandum between the STF and the city and regime is a military

and not relevant to the political status of self adinistration. Actually, the withdrawal of the American did not give a choice to the court. Then dealing with the asset and the region, the raging forces are located in Kobani Men which I necessity as well. It's a present and their headquarters and has a gun. Commisially cities the officials of the self constrationcies that it's a duty of the city and government to protect Syria international border from the Turkish occupation. To

avoid having the same scenario of offering. I talked too many people from commisially about that. They said they are not happy to receive the regime after all these years of self autonomous, but at the end region might be better than Turkey, and others said they will live if the regime take over this area, including me as many of them participate in the two thousand and eleven demonstration

against asset. The second question I asked Abbat was how do you believe closer integration of Rojaba to the Syrian state will affect the progress of the women's revolution? Regime is representing the patriarchy system. On the contrary, Rojaba is representing the woman revolution. Woman of Rojaba built last eight year specific system for the woman in all levels military, economically and politically, and they made impact in the education via teaching digitology, which is a woman's science on the

mentality of the new generations. In addition, the implementation of the co presidency system and all the institutions starting from coming to the highest official ranks allowed very effective participation of a woman to lead this region beside them and interview it the by theality co Presidency officers Siety Protection Forces in Al Jazeera kanton about this subject and she said, we know how to protect our servis now after a years of experience, and we are not afraid of a

region coming back. It's obvious that the woman of Rojaba will not lead their gainst easily, but there is a great risk on the woman evolution in case the regime take over Java, I do believe that the region will first startet the woman specifically because this is what makes Rojava unique on a global level. Now, the third question I asked about was the ceasefire has written appears to give Turkey all at once and leave nothing for the STF for Rojava. Do you believe it will actually be followed,

even the agreement being implementing under the American monitoring. But we saw the first the morning of the Truth had been bridged by Turkey and their backed forces. Turkey remote parts of the Wall and the seregoniest city and entered their backed forces. Heavy clashes took place in the city beside the Shilling as a result of the Turkish. Each of the Truth's last three days there were twenty five

fighters being killed and seventeen injured. On the other side, seventeen civilians as a result, lost their lives as a result of the bombardment of the Turkish. Yesterday, there was a stop of bombardment for some time, which allowed the medical teams to evacuate a lot of injured and martyrs, both fighters and civilians. This afternoon, the STF announced they withdraw all the forces from Sareknya without details about the

agreement yet and the military analysis the CIS fire. It doesn't mean surrounding by the SDF as there is no clear details about the agreement, but that doesn't mean that Turkey will stop the operation as soon it gets the saves one area between Serekanya until a Viett in thirty five kilometry depths, as we see on the ground that Turkey wants to destroy the safe administration system and Rajava.

There is a report through report right now saying that there is a discussion between Turkey and Russia about Kobani. Even so, this is why it doesn't mean surrounding by the STF and it doesn't mean that turk was gonna stop even if they get that area. The fourth question I asked about was how has the Autonomous region handled the flow of so many refugees from villages under attack

by Turkey. October nine, when the Turkish bombardment start against all Rojava cities, which is located on the Assyrian Turkish border.

That led to a massive waves of the IDPs home mode from their cities to the villages in the south to be saved from the Turkish shilling like Derek uncommish cities, while others population moved to Hassaka City that is far from the border, which is Seregania, until tamer until Abba which is more close to the Hassaka city and those three last cities are most affected by the Turkish attack. The numbers of the I d P s it's it's increasing and until now it's get our two hundred thousands

persons who have been displaced from their houses. Self administration municipality of the HASSCA our receiving basically the IDPs and they get some support from the U N Agencies, NGOs and local associations as they are transferring the schools to as shelters, but there is a lack of services. I went to in the past days to these shelters and there is uh. Every time, new numbers increasing very fast and the humanitarian situation get worse and the response is

so slow comparing to their needs. In addition, it's it's wars as a results of the Turkish attack on the virtual centers. As the Turkish air strike they hit the unlocked dam in Surrecani which is feeding the WATA to a city of Ceregani and Hassca until timer and that's result a cut of water three days from those cities. And this situation of the population and the I d

P s, it's get wars as a result of that. Also, I met many families and most of them basically from turl Abbas Regani and even some of them have been many times displacement as they were from a frin. I think if the international response is limited, that will gonna lead to a humanitarian crisis. Even I met the head of the West Municipality of the Haseka, Mohammed Shammy, and he was explaining to us how it's there is a

pressure on the city and there is no support. For example, he gave an example about the needs of the bread. He said, we use it to back thirty five tones of the floor daily for Hasseka. Only last days we are baking fifty tons and we cannot cover the needs of the population. So the situation every day, every hour gate wars and wars and there is a gap and and all the organizations have to respond to these needs. The fifth question I asked how about was how constant

a presence is Turk which air power? Ever, a lot of stories of convoys being bombed. Has this changed the way you travel during the day. Actually, while now I am trying to answer this question of yours, there is a plane. We're not sure if it in COMMISSI S guy, We're not sure it's it's belonged to home because it's it's just confusing. It's so low and it's clear that

it's not drawns. Maybe it's a helicopter. Actually I cannot identify which kind of planet is, but it's there because despite the Pentagon statement that they were going to have no flies on even before Java, even before the Turkey attacks started, but on October nine, So when the first Turkish start was jets in Surregani, I was there and I witness it and it was the first hit by the air striking. And since then all other kinds of

the war plans have been used. But the most affected city of the air striking it was Seregania antel Abbott. Last night, the injuries who have been in created by the cities, I met some doctors who are treating them and they told me, like most of the wands is the results of the air striking and shilling. So it doesn't stop because in a different occasion, the STF called the Americans for no fly zone and they were they were going to fight handling the fighting on the ground,

but there was no response until this moment. In addition to the Turkish drones and the air strike, that's really restricted movement inside the cities and on the way. Also one of the main reason now it's affecting on the movement,

it's the EICI sleeper sales. Even in the first day there is because they became very active recently and there is a sources confirmed that they opened the way to the Turkish packed forces which laid that they controlled on the m for how A highway and as a result they executed the civilians, including the co presidents co presidents of the Syrian Future Party have in Halaf the Turk they didn't stop and there is a no flies on

until this moment from any side for the Java. The sixth question I asked about was how does press access to the SDF now differ from how it was during the fighting against ISIS. Is it still possible for journalists to reach the front line. Actually, if we're gonna talk about the operation against ISIS and how it's have been globally covered by all the media because at that time

there were the s d A forces. They provide a protection and the coordination for them on the ground and and they managed to cover all the operation without any you know, like the cases that they for the journalists to lose their life or anything like that. While in this operation via the Turkish attack there is last ten days for journalists lost their lives and other sevenths have

been injured. Because now even they limited the access. It's limited for the media because of the security reason as there is a shelling air strike is the slipper sales and also there is a fear from the Syrian regime present also so there isn't no corporation in a way because of that, we can say like this operation can't be covered as it have been covered like the operation

against ISIS. Unfortunately, and the seventh question I asked Hobart was, of course what can people outside Rojava do to help? I think the people of the outside can help Rojaba, and specifically all the feminist movements have to rise up for otherwise we as a woman all over the world might face the risk to lose the woman revolution. Any activity to support Rojaba, like demonstrations, donation by Code Turkish Goods and rise the awareness of the Western community about

what is Rojaba facing currently. It's a genocide, it's an ethnic glancing, and it's a demographic demographic changing and everyone have to take the responsibilities in order to make some steps. And that's we're gonna help Rojaba for sure. Okay, And that's all the interview audio. Again, I'm Robert Evans. You can find sources for this episode behind the Bastards dot com. You can find me on Twitter at I right, okay, you can find us on Twitter at at Bastards pod.

And that's that's it. That's the episode. Go, go do something useful.