Cool Zone Media.
Oh my gosh, look at the time. It's behind the Bastards forty five. It's actually two eleven PM, otherwise known as eight am in the morning for me, because I let my sleep schedule get disastrously disordered and it is slowly destroying me and my life. But you know who it's not destroying is our wonderful guest for these episodes, Cowpen col How are you doing.
I'm doing well. I was gonna make a joke about just perpetually being awake, but I had no I had no good punchline. I'm good. I am awake, more of a more of a morning person, but very excited to be here.
I was.
I was just telling you in the before we came on, what a fin I am and so especially remember, can we talk about Sylvia's voice. Sorry, I'm just jumping the.
Gun and we'll be hearing more of it, don't you wear Okay, Okay, yeah, but no, I'm excited to be here, so thank you for thank you for having me. Yeah, let's put a pick, because I do want I do want to hear what you have to say about her voice. But let's give the listeners like a minute or two of it, which they're going to get in a minute, and then we can really we'll have something to sink our collective teeth into.
We'll dive in. Yeah.
So, in case you're coming into part two of this episode like a maniac, we're talking about Sylvia Brown, who is not named Sylvia Brown yet because she hasn't married the guy that she takes the last name from, but we're gonna call her Sylvia Brown anyway for the sake of making this simpler. She is a psychic who has found out that if you have are sick or Diana War, that's because you chose to do that in a past life. She's gotten out of her first marriage to an abusive cop.
She's moved to California. She has started a psychic foundation where she is working to create her own new religion. So by nineteen seventy five, things are really starting to come together for Sylvia. She's getting more and more famous. She's getting paid to speak at events by local organizations
in southern California. And usually what this means is like an Elks club or something well like entertainment, and they'll channel her right, or she'll channel Francine right, so she'll she'll bring in and they'll get to ask Francine questions about aliens or the other side or whatnot. Right, Like it's a game pick, you know, yeah, it could be fun.
Right.
This isn't evil. This is just a hoot. It's it's the stuff that comes later that gets to be evil. This is also the period where she claims she starts working as a pro bono consultant for cops and quote several medical and psychiatric professionals that she knew. Now, this is one thing that's interesting to me about this book. It tells you what a different era Sylvia came from. Where she has to reiterate several times, I never tell
anyone to come to me first. I'm always only brought in if they've already consulted a medical professional or already talked to the police and that didn't work. I'm just there to help if they've already tried traditional methods. Never go to a psychic before you go to a doctor, which is like a responsible thing to say, and she would absolutely not be saying if she were like doing this grift today. Right like today you can just do
away with doctors altogether. It's just interesting to me how even back in her day, you had to be like, obviously, go to a doctor first. It's kind of a even the psychics just doctors less than they used to.
My question about this is why not go to you first? Like the cost both in the actual what you're paying the doctor and the time you got to take off work. And if she's so great and you can solve something in twenty seconds, why would we not go to you first.
I you know, logically, you're right, it does make no sense. If she's a legitimate psychic, she shouldn't be saying that, right. I think it's just that that was too much, Like it was too crazy to tell people to do that. In the eighties. People have been like, you tell people not to go to the doctor. That's fucked up, right, Oh, Like yeah, I think the disinfo ecosystem has just advanced
so much now. But you're right, like, if she's a real psychic, you would want to go to her before a doctor, because doctors fuck up all the time, and God doesn't, right, Like the spirit will know where your humor? Yeah, right, So yeah, she's she's consulting and whatnot with all sorts of agencies. So she claims and she also starts to
show up on television. Right this is when the beginning of her TV career starts, and she gets asked to come to San Francisco, where she will for the next decade, like almost twenty years, will be a semi regular guest on the local TV show People Are Talking. This is like a San Francisco like local access show or something like that. And finding episodes of local TV shows from
the seventies is very hard. There's a ton of lost media for that era, which is actually really unfortunate, Like there's it's a there are efforts to archive a lot of that stuff that I'm very supportive of because it's a serious problem. That's so much of very important America like culture has been lost from that era. So I can't show you her appearances on People Are Talking from
the seventies. I just haven't found any. But I did find a nineteen ninety one episode of People Are Talking with Sylvia Brown, and I think it's fair to assume that this is similar to the stuff she would have been doing in the seventies. In the eighties, so we're still in the seventies. I'm going to play this clip from the nineties because I want you guys to get an understanding of like what her TV appearances are like in the early stage of her career, right, I hope that makes some sense.
And this was this is twenty years into her doing this show.
She's she's well, she starts in like the late seventies. She's been doing it for like a dec a little over a decade. She'll be on the show off and on I think for like twenty years. Right, this is about a decade into her run something like that. And before you ask, since this is from nineteen ninety one, yes, if you can't see, all of the women in this clip are wearing it thick shoulder pads and everyone's hair looks terrible, just terrible, terrible hair.
The age of big earrings as well.
Yeah, I love the whale eye ball ear rings.
It's beautiful. Yeah, Sylvia looks incredible. She's got, as Kal said, earrings that looked like whale eve rouse. So the episode starts with a very low stake story, right, some guy wanted to buy Sylvia is talking about a thing that had happened previously where some guy paid her to consult because he was going to buy an apartment with his wife, and he wasn't sure about it, so he asked Sylvia it was a good idea, and she said, no, don't
buy the apartment. It's a horrible idea. And then sometime later that guy's wife calls in and leaves a voice message thanking Sylvia for telling them not to buy the apartment because of what had happened in it. And here's that voicemail. And by the way, I do think the person leaving the voicemail is intoxicated, but you can make your own opinions up on that.
People that know me. I really don't beat around the bush that much. I probably was a little bit nicer than that, truthfully, but I said it's a bad idea, it's negative. There's something wrong with it. I feel all kinds of negative energy around it. And I came on very strong about it.
Now.
He then called our producer Kathy Churmmel and left a message on her answering machine, and this is the message he left after he talked to Sylvia.
It's Terry, It's I can see it thirty your time. I just wanted to tell you that the apartment that Eric Clapton's kids fell out of the window I don't know if you've heard he was killed the apartment that Billy, you know and I have been looking at forever that he just lost today that someone else bought. So Billy calls and says, maybe your psychic's right after all, because your psychic said there are major problems with that apartment. So for what it's worth, he's a big believer again
in your psychic. Can you believe that anyway? I thought you'd want to know.
Isn't that something?
Wow?
First off, I do think that lady's struck. But second, that's a true story. Eric Clapton's son did die falling out of a window in a New York City apartment building. That's what she's claiming is that, like the apartment they were going to buy was in the building that Eric Clapton's sun fell out of, which, like I mean, first, that's a tragedy obviously it's horrible, but also doesn't mean
that anything was wrong with his apartment. He wasn't buying Eric Clapton's apartment, and the child didn't die because the apartment was bad. The window was left open while it was being cleaned, and the kid hadn't realized and he like ran towards what he thought was a closed plateglass window to like put his face against it or something, and he fell over the side. Like it's a really sad story. But again, there's nothing wrong with the apartment,
Like they wouldn't have died falling out of the apartment window. Right, It's like again, whatever, it's just there's this And I have no idea at this point how much of this is even manufactured, Like if that was like an completely faked story because Eric Clapton's son dying was so in the news. Oh, it's kind of unclear to me the producers.
Would they fact check calls that came in. We don't know.
No, No, I don't know that they would. But also, this is like a show like it's about entertainment, they're not, yeah, purport, So I don't actually know what's going on here. That said, as we established last episode, Sylvia has a history of deciding homes are cursed and not wanting to.
Be in them.
So I can believe this just happened to be the same apartment Eric Clapton lived in. Right, So the next question here they go to break and when they come back, the hosts note that they're having weird electrical issues with the broadcast, which always seems to happen when Sylvia comes by and she's like, oh, every time I'm on TV, there's electrical issues somewhere. You know. It's the spirits. The
ghosts mess with the equipment. The recording in the video looks pretty clear to me from recording from nineteen ninety one, but who knows. Next, they take questions from the audience, so she's being asked, now, this is a series of questions about celebrity marriages and celebrities trying to have kids and whether or not their relationships work out, and she
gets a couple right. She's first asked if Maury Povich and Connie Chung are going to have a child together, and she says no, which we will call partially correct. The couple had fertility issues and we're not able to conceive together, But they did adopt a child not long after this broadcast, so partially we'll give her like a half score on that one. Right after that, they ask
about Bruce Willis and Demi Moore's second child. Now, she does correctly predict that their second child will be a daughter, which is like a fifty to fifty guess, but okay, we'll give her that one, right, she's right about this. The next one she's asked about is Roseanne bar and Tom Arnold, and they were at the time attempting to have a child through artificial insemination, and she goes on a real rant here. Her whole mood changes because she
thinks God hates artificial insemination. I can't think of anything worse. She is so angry at the fact that they are getting having artificial incemination. And there's also some weird like fat shaving parts of it too, because when they talk about do you think they'll have a kid? Like, the audience starts to laugh as they show pictures of Tom Arnold and Roseanne Barr, and I think they're just like laughing at the fact that they're like heavier people, right,
Like it's shitty, it's kind of gross. But I guess TV in nineteen ninety one. So the last questions he asks about and it is weird to me that she's so negative about IVF. But the next question we get to is my favorite, because she's asked about Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman, who had recently gotten together in nineteen ninety one. And she's asked, like, is this relationship going to last? And here's what she says.
How about Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman.
They're job, they're cute, and I think that they're fun for each other. And I think they're going to make it. And I'll tell you why, because she's a real strong woman, and I think he needs a strong woman. And I think that's why it's going to be good, because she's got the strength. Because he's got that sort of charming little boy way about him. He really does. And I think she's good for him, and I think she'll whip him into.
Line that one did not correct. Yeah, they got divorced in two thousand and one, siting and reconcilable differences. You know, when you look at this what you're seeing here, First off, this is a great situation to be a TV psych again, because it's a bunch of fifty to fifty guesses, right, sure,
and your accuracy is pretty good. First off, if you're being asked, will these celebrities who are already famous for having a tumultuous relationship, which was the case with a lot of these relationships, she's asked her, they're going to stay together? It's a pretty good bet to be like, well, probably not right because like they're already having a bunch of problems. Also the same thing with like they've had one daughter, do you think their next child will be
a daughter? Fifty to fifty shot, pretty easy guess to get it right. But in nineteen ninety one, Krus and Kidman had just gotten married. They had not had any sort there wasn't anything in the media about the relationship having like problems yet right every all the press about them was positive. So Sylvia guessed that they were going to last, like she's not. It just really makes the
case of what she's doing here. She can get it right when it's kind of a thing anyone could guess, well, but when there's less to go on, she's going to be wrong because she's just she's just blindly guessing.
You know, yes, this is it's such a fifty to fifty. It's a fifty to fifty and you hate I.
Via right, and yeah, you're really against the itef artificial dissemination. God hates it anyway. This episode is from the early nineties, but she's doing this stuff like this by like from the late seventies up through the eighties, and so we can safely assume a lot of her TV appearances during that period are kind of similar to this, and she's she's a good performer for what that show is, right, Like, she's that's why they keep bringing her on. She does
the job she's being brought on to do. Uh, And the hosts of the show know what they're getting out of her, right, and they're they're pretty smart about tailoring because she likes to talk about metaphysics and aliens and dead people. That's more heavy than you want on like a daily time you about celebrity marriages and babies. Right, Yeah, So this is kind of her at her most public facing like media like like this is like the most digestible Sylvia tends to get. She is a hit though.
She starts doing fairly well enough that she's able to rent a larger office and start hiring employees to handle her correspondence. She brings in two full time researchers for the Neirvada Foundation and even an early computer system because they're trying to map out all of the realities of the other side, and you know, how they're ranking angels and how angels work and trying to figure out the
science of all of this stuff that she believes. Sylvia starts hosting regular hypnosis sessions and psychic readings and begins advertising that she can help clients quit smoking, lose weight, or fix their life in any number of ways. Sylvia says that at first these sessions were just a way for her to fund her foundation for psychic research. Quote it never occurred to me that these hypnosis sessions would contribute far more than money to the foundation and its
efforts to prove that the spirit survives death. So the way these sessions prove that life exists after death is that she starts having clients who start telling her about their past lives. This begins with a guy named Frank, who just he comes in because he wants to lose weight. But when you know it, when she puts some down and hypnotizes him, he starts talking about quote his life
in Egypt as a pyramid builder. We're gonna talk about Frank the pyramids in a second, but before we continue with Frank, we need to make a quick detour to the history of past life aggression therapy. This starts like the origins of this kind of shit, or in like the end of the eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds, you get these occultists and scientists in London who are kind of like like Sylvia says she's doing, they're trying to they set up foundations to try to find evidence of
life after death. And it'll be a mix at this point of like spiritualists and scientists, because they're not that different in eighteen ninety, you know, like there's not a real strong reason to be like, well, ghosts don't exist
based on the science of eighteen ninety. It's like an arguable point really to a lot of scientists at that time, as opposed to I mean, it's still an I guess you could say an arguable point now, but a lot of mainstream scientists are willing to explore the idea that the maybe their spirits right, and maybe there's a way that we can like like figure out science typically how spirits work. That's very much in vogue at the time.
In the nineteen thirties, a researcher at Duke University tries to systematically study the experiences of people with past lives and start documenting them. And then in the mid nineteen fifties, Maury Bernstein writes a book titled The Search for Britty Murphy. This is a fiction book inspired by a real story of a woman named Virginia Tie, an American lady who came to believe she was the reincarnation of a nineteenth
century irishwoman. The book was made into a movie that was fairly popular and this Obviously reincarnation is like a major aspect of a number of world religions, but this book helps popularize the idea in a secular sense for Westerners, reincarnation not as part of an existent belief system, but as something you can take all a caart and if you're a Christian, you can stick it in your Christianity.
If you believe in psychic powers and something you know weirder than that, if you're an occultist or a pagan or a Wiccan, you can stick some Like Americans start seeing reincarnation of something, I can just grab this, take this out of the grab bag of world believes and stick it into whatever I already believe.
Right.
That kind of starts to really hit in the sixties and seventies, and part is a result of this book.
So by the seventies you get a number of psychologists and psychiatrists offering what they call past life regression services, where they'll hypnotize or otherwise like put people down and to try to bring up their past lives with the idea that a lot of psychosomatic illnesses and ailments are really caused by If your foot hurts a lot and the scientists can't figure out why, the doctor can't figure out why, it's probably because in the past life, you like lost your leg to a mortar in World War
One or something like that, or got hit by a horse, you know, back on the prairie in the cowboy days, and so you got to if you can access that past life, and that past life can explain what happened to it, you can fix the ailment. That's the idea that a lot of these people are going into in the seventies, and in nineteen ninety one, the practice is pretty close to it's the peak of its popularity in
the late eighties. So Sylvia is heading down very well trod ground when she starts doing this question.
And I don't I don't know if you mentioned it in part one. Do we know what kind of religion, if any, she was raised with.
Yeah, she's raised Catholic. She goes to a Catholic school as a girl, and she respects it and she believes in God, but she also has notes sure some.
Of the IVAN because some of the IVF stuff could stem from that. Yeah, they're very anti IVF. And yeah, it's just interesting. I don't know, it's interesting to see like some of the Catholicism bleed into her beliefs here.
You can even see it in the idea that like, well, before we're born, were these fully sentient spirits that pick out our entire lives right, Like you can just see pieces of that there too.
Yeah.
So back to Frank. This guy wants to lose weight and then starts talking about his life as a pyramid builder. What Sylvia puts him there? Fry Uh Yeah. Now, Sylvia says that the way he talks about hit pyramid building is quote so unremarkable and current to him that you would have thought he'd stop to see me on his lunch break and would be heading straight back to put some finishing touches on King Tut's tomb. And this is where I got to stop us for the first time,
because King Tut was not buried in a pyramid. King Tut is buried underground simply simply not in a pyramid, not at all in a pyramid, the opposite of a pyramid. He's in kind of a basement.
Like now, she could have just picked the one that we've all heard of.
She could have just picked the one that that's exactly right, that's exactly right now. I did want to look into a couple of things to try to parse out the actual history here, because hey, maybe maybe a pyramid builder might also make tombs too, but that's also seems to be unlikely because Tut died around in the thirteen hundred s BC. Pyramid building kicks off in Egypt in the twenty six hundreds BC, and it evolves over time, but by the seventeen hundreds or so, the practice is in
pretty steep decline in Egypt. One of the last significant pyramids was built for the pharaoh Kinder somewhere around seventeen sixty by the time King Tut died. Because of how all of the pyramids keep getting burgled, Egyptian woryald here being buried underground. So Frank's recollections of pyramid building don't bear a lot of resemblance to what we know of
the practice. For one thing, When she asks him, how did you build the pyramids, he says that we had anti gravitational devices that we used in their construction, which is not how pyramids were built. So he's definitely on the we had like alien technology things. And at one point when she's down, Sylvia says that Frank lapses into what she first describes as a steady stream of fluent Martian.
She thinks it's Martian, and she records him talking. She says, she does this with his permission, I hope so, and she sends the tape to a psychology friend at Stanford who calls her back and it's like, where did you get this tape? And she's like, what do you mean? This was just one of my patients. And he's like, those nonsense syllables you said you heard that was a fluent monologue in an obscure seventh century BC, a Syrian dialect that would have been common among pyramid builders. So
now I got to look into this. First off, the.
Research you had to do as you were reading this, geez.
You got do way more research to bust the line.
Were you were you on a plane or mid Marti Gras when this was happening too.
Yeah, I'm doing this during Marti Gras. Look at the cigarettes. Yeah, because and the Assyrians did build ziggorots, which are different from Egyptian pyramids, but close enough that I guess you could call you call yourself a pyramid builder. However, there's
not like a dialect of Assyrian. I found no evidence that there was like a dialect that pyramid builders would have used, because these were generally like public projects and also like you would have a lot of like artisans who get brought into the work on these projects, but they had other skills. There's not like a language that the pyramid guys use.
Was there a citation of who at Stanford this person was?
No, no, no, she didn't even say a professor. She just says a psychology friend. Also, I don't trust that you're a psychology friend at Stanford knows the how is he? Who's he doing? Is he playing it to the Assyrian guy? I guess let's just take it.
Over to the This could be a little tighter of a story, this story on her behalf. I have editorial notes for her.
Yeah, yeah, you can zip this up a little bit tighter. Cylvia. So the next several pages of her autobiography are just like a list of past life regressions that she does, and she all the different illnesses she cures by finding out people's past lives. So, since this is working so well.
For a second of a question, does she ever mention? I think one of the things I think is so interesting when whatever I've read about things like this is that, like almost nobody seems to break gender with their past lives.
Yeah, like interesting, huh?
Is there any example of like one of her patients, It's like, oh, yes, when I was a he's a dude, and he's like when I was a fourteen year old girl back in Mollie. Is there any anybody ever, anybody in this book who breaks gender and her patients.
I haven't. I don't remember perfectly, but everyone I remember their past lives are the same gender as their current life.
Oh interesting, Okay, Yeah.
Now what I will say cal that that did interest me. About the past lives of her patients, A lot of them were like commoners. Normally you get a lot of past lives like oh, everybody was like a king. Huh, everybody's like a great warrior. This guy's like I built pyramids or whatever. It's just like a dude, a laborer. And you actually do get a weird amount of that with Sylvia's, which I kind of like, oh, that's an interesting spin on the grift, Like a lot of is
you just like normal pastime jobs. Sylvia, however, does not have normal past lives, because she starts interrogating her own and she comes to the conclusion that quote, I'd once been the most beautiful high priestess in all of Africa, and that in a later life, I'd been the first Eskimo to use shoelaces. Now, I don't know how much debunking I need to do, Like Africa has never been one political entity, like a priestess of what. There's a bunch of religions that have exist on that continent, so
many of them over history, high priestess of what, most beautiful? Who, who decided that, who voted on it? Like, and then the whole thing about fucking shit. First off, Eskimo is like a slur. It's a colonial slur that generally refers to There's a couple of different groups of people that it refers to, like the Inuit and the upiic, but it's not a term that you would have used for yourself. If that was your past life, you wouldn't call yourself
in the nineties. Even in the nineties, we knew that uh I did look in to win these like those different peoples had shoelace developed shoelaces just to.
See in your research, Yes, go.
On, I had, I had to know. I don't think we don't know when shoelaces first came into being, but the peoples who eventually wound like who like wound up in that part of the world probably took shoelaces with them because we've had the concept for very Oh see, the ice man had shoelaces. And there's actually I think the oldest shoelaces we've ever found were in our Menian or someone buried in Armenia. I don't know if they were Armenian her because people's move we had shoelaces. It's
a lot for a long time. I don't think there was a first girl who was like, I've invented shoelaces.
I really enjoy that she in the section you just read, must have smoked such a beautiful little bowl before she penned those sentences. Right, She's like, and I had shoelaces, and you're sitting here sober, just doing the research on when shoelaces made it to Native Alaskan communities.
Yeah, she kind of seems like they always had them.
Yeah, is like.
I'm Helen of Troy, but with shoelaces.
Yeah, exactly. Okay, this has just researching this has given me like a if anyone ever starts talking about past lives to me, the first thing to ask is what was your name? And then you just look up. Is that a name those people had? Or is it a Greek name? Speaking of Greek? Our sponsors could be a Greek. You don't know. Neither know why, we don't ask, and we're back. So Sylvia claims that her relationship with law enforcement began in the nineteen seventies, like her professional relationship,
but she doesn't give any detail. She doesn't talk about cases solved, she doesn't say that I talk about specific interactions. She just says that she'd been helping and you know, the police valued her. But she gives us nothing else to go on, and so we don't really get any details about how she used her so called psychic powers to help solve crimes. Until one day in nineteen ninety three, her friend Ted Gunderson, who she describes as an FBI agent.
Keep that in mind, cal she calls Ted Gunderson, an FBI agent, gives her a call. A rider truck filled with explosives had just been detonated under the World Trade Center, killing six people. And you know what happens a few years later as a result of that, it's that attack is the three World Trade Center bombing. And so Ted Gunderson FBI called Sylvia and is like, we got we need your help tracking down the terrorists who did this. You know, the FBI can't do this without Sylvia. She writes, quote.
I'd worked with Ted on other cases, and my respect for him wasn't as unparalleled. Whatever I could do to help him, if I could help it all, no matter what. All he had to do was ask By the time he called me, I had read that three of the Islamic terrorist bombers had been arrested, and Ted one of my psychic input on any others who might be involved. I told her there were five, maybe six men involved,
including the three in custody. Now I got to dig into this cal because since and we'll talk about Ted in a second, but since a total of six terrorists were arrested, Sylvia Clem's victory. Right, I knew they were going to be five or six. They arrested six. I'm right. Look at how psychic I am. But that's not quite accurate. That's not quite an accurate picture of how many people were involved in making that bomb. Right, there were six
guys arrested, but there was a seventh person involved. One of the government's key witnesses and they bring these guys to trial was an FBI informant, former Egyptian Army officer, Emad Salem. With the FBI's help and directions, Salem infiltrated the group that bombed the World Trade Center, and he built bombs for them and taught them how to build bombs using bomb building techniques the FBI gave him. We don't talk about this a lot, we probably should. It's a pretty big fuck up.
Yep. Wow.
For an interview with him in history dot com, Ibrahim Elga Brownie invited me and this is uh sorry, this is Immad Salem talking about his time infiltrating this group. Ibrahim Elga Brownie invited me into his house and blasted the radio loud because he was thinking of the FBI was monitoring his apartment, and he asked me, can you build big bombs? I said, yes, I can. He asked, what do you need to build big bombs? Because twelve bombs he built twelve pipe bombs for these guys already
are not really making me happy. I wanted something big. I said, I need a detonator, and then I gave him some demands. So they switched gears from twelve small pipe bombs and a big, massive bomb similar to the Oklahoma City bomb. So first, that's a mad the guy the FBI sent in to this group saying, well, they got the idea to do one big bomb because I told them it would work better than twelve pipe bombs, which already I would say if I'm a psychic, that
makes him involved in the creation of this bomb. Now what happens next is a little unclear to me, but per a nineteen ninety three New York Times article by Ralph Blumenthal, it looks like the FBI found out that there was a cell of terrorists in New York who were working to build a bomb to attack the World Trade Center. So they come up with an initial plan to infiltrate a mad into the group and have him
get basically provide them with fake ingredients. So they're going to build a real bomb, but the explosives inside it are fake. So the mechanics of the bomb would be real, but there'd be fake stuff inside of it, so the bomb doesn't work when they set it off, and then they arrest everybody. Right, that's how you'd think something like
this should go, right, if you're gonna do this. However, that plan was called off at the last minute by an FBI supervisor who had a different plan about how to use mister Salem, and it's it's unclear what his plans were. A lot of this is very murky because it's the FBI. Lamb may have had a feud with his supervisor. Ultimately he's pulled off the case, and when he's not in the group, they succeed in finishing the bomb that he'd helped them start building, and they detonated
in the World Trade Center. It is unclear how much Silim actually helped them and how much of the how much of what the bomb they used he had had a hand and we really don't know, but the evidence we have does suggest that he helped them figure out some aspects of bomb making. Either way, Sylvia's psychic powers
gave her no hint that this guy existed whatsoever. For her part, Sylvia takes a lot of pride in the fact that during her recorded interview, which is a real interview, she told her friend agent Gunderson, quote, one of the men you need to and I'm doing the psychic hand thing here. If you can't see one of the men you need to look for has a short build, wiry black hair, black eyebrows. There's an M on there, an S, S, A l Z E M something, salzeon, Salzemon Mon, okay, Salzemon,
And she predicts one of the men is named Salzamon. Now, one of the men who had already been arrested at that point was named Mohammed A Salama, which isn't really all that similar to Salzemon. They start with an S, otherwise very different names. I would say, you got it wrong. It's like I'm going to have a guest for a podcast. I'm reading a K. Kevin Calvin, Oh cow, I got it right, perfect, Like, no, I didn't. I didn't foresee anything.
And this is cold reading, right, that's the technique she's using, right, This is that's where it's a very old psychic frat. You start with I'm hearing a and you start going through a couple of different and someone of the adults would be like, oh, I had an aunt who was if you said m was Mary or my cousin Mike, you know, and then you kind of you you zero in from there and you kind of refine the grift a little bit. This is cold reading. That's what she's doing.
In this interview, she writes about getting this wrong, no doubt about it. I was off by a few letters. But when Ted told me they had arrested someone named Saloma, it was this close enough that I screamed, you got him. Obviously she accomplished nothing at all, but she carts this around as a he was they had him in custody. When she's interviewed, she doesn't do shit. Oh that said, I need to point out here it's not accurate for her to say you got him to Ted Gunderson because
and here's the fun part. Ted Gunderson wasn't an FBI agent in nineteen ninety three, and had nothing to do with arresting the men who bombed the World Trades It.
Ted, Yeah, who was he?
The fuck is this guy?
This is a great question. Ted Gunderson was a retired FBI agent at the time of the World Trade Center attacks. He'd had a successful career. He'd at one point run the Los Angeles branch, like the branch is the wrong way, but he run the LA FBI office, right. But in the nineteen eighties he retired and he went into private practice, where he became an insane crank. He becomes a major figure in the Satanic panic. He's the guy doing the
McMartin preschool trial. He's the guy like digging up stuff in the fucking yard of the McMartin preschool and making public statements about I can tell from that children were sacrificed here, babies were murdered. Right, He's that fucking lunaty right.
He is close gosh figure.
In American conspiracism, like Ted Gunderson, because he used to be in the FBI, has all of this unearned credibility, and so when he says stuff like that, oh, I've seen a lot of satanic ritual abuse. I know there's thousands of babies being trafficked for the devil in this country. People trusted him, right, That's who fucking Ted Gunners it is. She's not working with the FBI. She's working with a crank who used to be in the FBI.
Wow's perfect, incredible school chef's kiss moment there.
Yeah, what beautiful of.
All the ex FBI agents that had to be Darryl Ted.
I'll admit at first I took it at face value. They're like, yeah, maybe the FBI brought her in for an interview. They've done crazier things. And then I like, I'm gonna look up Ted Gunderson just an oh for a little more on Ted. At a nineteen ninety five conference in Dallas, he alleged that the New World Order controlled the US government and was performing four thousand human sacrifices in New York City every year. He also claimed that the Oklahoma City bombing was carried out by the
US government to slander the far right. Later in life, he wrote copiously about child slave labor in underground alien controlled facilities. He's like, there's a white A big part of QAnon is the belief that there's these underground like evil military bases where the aliens are like sucking adrenochrome out of kids heads. Ted Gunderson helped start all that, Like he is a foundational figure in American conspiracism. So
that's good. Yeah, good that he She's working on this guy, so whatever he thought.
They found each other question mark.
Yeah, yeah, it's nice when two grifters do.
I want to know what her friendship was like outside the interview? What did they just kick it and talk about conspiracies or did they have a normal did they just like have beers and play ping pong and it wasn't weird?
Like that was the Yeah, what do you watch movies together? Or do you just like sit alone together listening to numbers stations or something like? What is your friendship with Ted Gunderson look like? So Sylvia has a lot of pride in her long history of collaboration with the FBI, and you'll hear her bring it up in her book and in most interviews where she talks about her work
with law enforcement. The Skeptical Inquirer actually filed a series of requests for FBI files because they wanted to know did she have any relationship with the bureau whatsoever did she do anything for them and the FBI. The short answer is no. The FBI has no record of her
ever helping any agent on any case. That doesn't mean they had no record of her, though quote recently obtained FBI files shatter her insinuation that she had a relationship with them law enforcement and showed that the only interest the agency had in Brown was investigating her for fraud. So she was involved with the FBI, but not in a good way.
Yeah, oh, Sylvia.
In her book, Sylvia claimed that the interview I quoted from had been conducted by the FBI, but no FBI record exists that she ever spoke with him about the World Trade Center bombings. The Inquirer then filed a Foyer request for any documents or video the agency had about Brown's interviews regarding the attack, and the BUEAU responded, we conducted a search of the central record system. We were
unable to identify the main records responsive to FOYA. Ultimately, the Inquirer concluded there is no documentation released by the FBI to support the claim that Brown conducted any psychic readings for the FBI, either directly or indirectly. Moreover, Gunderson's name appears nowhere in her FBI file, and the topics in the FBI release do not discuss working with the FBI. Thus, there is no evidence from the records that Brown was involved with the agency that said. She has a criminal
record herself. There's a criminal complaint that get filed against her in Santa Clara County, California, on May twenty sixth of nineteen ninety two, and it alleges that Sylvia and her husband at the time I think this is husband number three, had been selling securities under false pretenses. And this is really good. I want to quote from the
Santa Clair Chronicle here. Although telling a couple their twenty thousand dollars investment was to be used for immediate operating costs, the complaint stated the Browns transferred the money to an account for the Nirvana Foundation for Psychic Research. Just one month later, in April of the nineteen eighty eight, the
complaint stated, they declared bankruptcy in the venture. So the idea is this is like a gold mine that they're selling shares in basically, so it's like a securities fraud scam and they're just taking the money and instead of investing it into this mine, they're putting it directly into the foundation and just robbing people per during the like the pair's arraignment San Francisco or the chronical note in quote, Sylvia Brown claimed to have strong psychic feelings that the
mind would pay off, but it doesn't. And she and her husband Kinzil Dalzel Brown, and that's where she gets the last name Brown, plead no contest to a felony charge and are made to pay back their victims, right, so they each get a year of probation and now they're felons. So that's good. We got a little gold con in here. You know, this is kind of a law.
She does a lot of conning of people in banks to fund her foundation, which kind of I had just said she was starting to see success, and that's how she writes it. And most of the articles on her will say that, like, yeah, in the seventies and eighties, she builds a larger and larger business. The Skeptical Inquirer's reporting makes it look like she probably wasn't ever very successful prior to the late nineties. She's just stealing money to fund her foundation. People aren't paying her for her
psychic She's a total fraud in that regard. Right, we'll talk a little bit more that. I do want to note Sylvia and Kensel are estranged at the time that they get charged with felonies, but she keeps his name and adds an E to it. I don't know why. I just kind of think that's.
Funny, that's amazing.
So let's talk about those FBI files on Sylvia, about her other financial fraud cases, because there's a lot of them. The Bureau describes her as a self proclaimed psychic and notes that they investigated her starting in the nineteen eighties and the Irvana Foundation as well for violations of federal law and applying for loans from FDIC institutions in the amount of one point two five to three million dollars. So she is getting more than a million dollars in
fake loans for her business. They know, well the loans are real, but she's lying on her loan paperwork. They note that her fraudulent advice also caused multiple businesses sustained losses, So she's also getting money for the foundation by giving business advice that's fraudulent. Most of what she's doing is falsifying financial statements to enhance her net worth and lie that she's worth two or three million dollars when she's
not worth anything close to that. To get these hundreds of thousands of dollars and eventually well over a million dollars in loans. The FBI notes that her loan proceeds went to so an extravagant lifestyle, and they have her dead to rights and don't prosecute because the US attorney decides there's insufficient evidence of criminal intent. Basically, we know she got all this money, and we know she lied on our loan applications, but she may have believed the business could work.
Oh gosh. This goes back to the feel like she believes the things she's saying.
Right right, and apparently convinced a US attorney of that as well. Wow, now, cal you know who never commits financial crime?
Kermit the Frog.
Well, that that is probably the case. I have trouble imagining him getting away with it. Although she is fun. It is fun to think of Kermit on the witness stand, and something like reading back is like texts to miss Piggy without investling money. Oh no, I can't do a good Kermit voice.
Otherwise that was more Patrick Mahomes than Kermit, but.
Yeah it was. It was. Well, think about Kermit the Frog as we go to ads, we're back call. Are you familiar with a theory that Kermit caused nine to eleven?
No, but I'm here for it please.
Oh it's fucking crazy. So in the Muppet movie that comes out in like two thousand and one, it's like basically Muppet, it's a wonderful life where Kermit wonders like what would happen if I'd never been born? And in like the normal Muppet world before it's like New York after nine eleven. Right, there's no Twin Towers, but in the version when he like sees life if he'd never been born, the Twin Towers are back. No, So something
about Kermit's life caused nine to eleven? No, why it's fucking crazy?
Oh my gosh, all right, I got I'm a big Muppets fan, so I need.
To go and I love it too. Yeah, Kermit, nine to eleven should bring you most of what you need to know.
There goes my weekend. Thanks.
So weirdly enough, it's only after her nineteen ninety three no contest plead to a felony that Sylvia Brown gains national fame and renown if you look at like and what it looks like from what the skeptical inquirer uncovered is that she's kind of a middling psychic and most of her money and the success comes from fraud until she starts getting on real TV. She's on this local channel for a while, but it's when she hits like national television that she becomes a big deal. Now she
does continue. It's also weird to me. After her fraud conviction, she keeps working with police departments. There are some who hire her. In nineteen ninety seven, the Thibodau, Louisiana police department pays her four hundred dollars to consult on the murder of a priest. So this priest has been killed and Sylvia is brought in. She tells the authorities the priest was killed by a young mulatto homosexual who was
enraged by the priest's rejection of his advances. So basically she blames it on a non white person who was gay who hit on this priest and then murdered him out of rage. And she said that someone with a street name of King had had gang people do the murder, which I'm sure is also more racism right now, this murder is eventually solved ten years later, the culprit, Derek Adomes, had murdered the priest and a robbery gone bad. Nothing no gay stuff, no gangs, just a guy who killed
another dude in a robbery. Happens all the time.
Do you guys do merch for this pund.
We have in the past.
You got a suggestion, Yeah, Young Mulatto homosexual is an amazing T shirt. I would buy this.
Teacher that's a solid performer name yeah, or a good band name or a good band name yeah. So that there's no real evidence to suggest that she had any kind of extensive, long lasting relationship with law enforcement. Again, Thibodeaux hires her once, but not again because they waste their money on her, and there's certainly no evidence that she catches any bad guys, but she sure starts claiming that she had once she gets famous due to her
appearances on the Montel Williams Show. As best as I can tell, the relationship starts in nineteen ninety because Montell wants to do a Halloween episode about the Haunting of the Queen Mary, which is like this, Sophie, it's like a boat you can tour that's like off the Long Beach, right, yeah, right, and you know it's an older boats there's I think supposed to be ghost on it. So she gets brought in there like we need a psychic. Montell's people like,
we want a psychic for this episode. They bring in Sylvia. She does a really good job on the episode because she knows how to entertain an audience, and Montell's like, you're great. They hit it off and he keeps having her on. Right, It's just a good match. Montel provides her with instant fame and legitimacy, treating her with casual deference and opening her up to a whole world of major entertainment figures. She does a whole series about angels
on Montell's show that so successful. Larry King wrings her on his show to do the same thing, to talk about how and to have callers tell stories about how angels save their lives, and she'll explain how angels really work. Right, it's very nineties, but like she is, you know, by the time you're on Montela and Larry King you're pretty prominent, right. It doesn't get a lot bigger than.
That your borderline of household name if not right?
Yeah, yeah quote. No matter the situation, the basic experience
was always the same. During a crisis, a stranger arrived seemingly out of nowhere, had a profound impact on the crisis, carrying a drowning woman out of the sea and delivering her safely to the beach, removing a trapped driver from a badly damaged car moments before it caught fire, laying hands on the forehead of a feverish child on the hospital seconds before the fever coincidentally broke, and then disappearing before anyone could find out who they were and thank them.
And these are the angel stories people tell. And I get why people believe in this, as someone has had like loved ones just like die tragically and not had an angel, it does kind of render like, well, why why don't the angels help everybody?
Yeah, Like, why.
Are the angels really seem to like to help people like affluent kids in like western hospitals and not like kids with like gut worms and sub Saharan Africa. It's where the angels don't like save them. Huh, just the kids in nice hospital. Okay, So Sylvia starts writing books. I mean she had been for a while while writing books, but they start to become best sellers. She claims she has more than twenty New York Times bestsellers, so I think this is pretty much accurate. She has her book
sell very well, she makes a shitload of money. And this is all after the Montel stuff. Yep, all after the Montell stuff. This is all in the late nineties, right. In nineteen ninety eight, she co writes the book Adventures of a Psychic with Antoinatte May, in which she blames her nineteen eighty eight bankruptcy on her husband Kensel's attempts to hide his criminal behavior. She does not acknowledge being
convicted of a felony for gold mine fraud. Per the Chronicle, she laments that while ignorant, people say, well, if you're so psychic, why didn't you blank? The answer, she says, is that I'm not psychic about myself. So she is consistent about that, But like, that doesn't answer the question of why did you defraud people for a fake gold mine? Now, despite all these very obvious lies and his history of failed predictions. She's really good on TV, so she keeps
getting invited on Montell's show. All Sylvia has to do is make sure that every word out of her mouth is a lie per the skeptical inquirer. In her November two thousand and four appearance on The Montell william Show, Brown said, I remember when I was working on the Bundy case talking about Ted Bundy. Outside of this offhand comment, there's no evidence to affirm that Brown worked on a Bundy case, much less the case of serial killer Ted Bundy,
whose capture was not connected to a psychic. So she should just start dropping this whenever a famous murder or crime or terrorist act's say, oh I helped on that I consulted. I can't talk about it, but.
There's literally no evidence to support that claim whatsoever. Cool.
No, we started these episodes by talking about the case of Amanda Barry, who was abducted in two thousand and three and whose mother in two thousand and four consulted with Sylvia on The Montell Williams Show and got a very bad reading. As I noted, she's devastated by this. She returns home and gives away her father's or her daughter's things, takes down the pictures and it's very sad.
But what's interesting to me about this is that Amandaberry's mom is actually responsible for the only verified contact with the FBI that Sylvia ever had, per the Cleveland Plaine dealer. At me Allier's request. FBI agents investigating Amanda's disappearance met with Miller after the show to discuss Brown's other psychic views on the case. Special agent Kelly Liberty said Brown said she envisioned Amanda's jacket and a dumpster with DNA
on it. So she tells them the psychic told me that my daughter's jacket was in a dumpster, it was covered in blood, and the FBI is like, okay, we'll look into it. That's her only real connection to the FBI. Wow, that's the only one that there actually is. Now, when the real abductor was caught, most people would be ashamed. Brown took a victory lap, even as the media rightly lambasted her for wrongly declaring a woman dead, because well,
here's the thing. Sylvia had gotten the fact that she was dead wrong obviously, but she was right about who did the crime, because she predicted that Amanda was abducted by a sort of Cuban looking man. Oh maybe twenty one or twenty two. Now, the actual culprit was first off born in Puerto Rico, and second was in his forties. Yeah, just wrong. She also described him as short, and he
was of average height. She's wrong about everything. In a statement posted to her Facebook page following Barry's dramatic escape, Brown acknowledged that she'd been wrong about her death. Writing for more than fifty years as a spiritual guide in psychic when called upon to either help authorities with missing persons cases or to help families with questions about their loved ones, I have been more right than wrong. If there was ever a time to be grateful and relieve
for being mistaken, this is that time. Only God is right all the time.
Okay, all right, all right, okay, it's something she's got a little like suburban mom pr going right.
I feel like, honestly, the version of this today would be like, oh, she's not alive. That's a fake, you know, the government planted her or something like. You like our modern grifters can't even admit to being that wrong. It's weird, how refreshing it is that she at least acknowledged reality.
Yeah, good point, so this is not.
Her only fuck up. In two thousand and three, Brown gives a reading on Montel again, this time about the two thousand and one aspearance of Jerry Chusney Junior. She told that man's sister that Chustney had been hit on the head, choked, and thrown into a river, and added that he'd been killed because he saw something he shouldn't. In twenty ten, that man's roommates were charged with shooting him and hiding his body over a drug debt. He was buried in the woods. Again wrong about every detail
in the case. In two thousand and five, she gave her reading on Montel to Tamara Ivy, the mother of a murder victim named Dustin. She blamed a teenage boy and a young dark haired woman, one of whom was a sexual predator and had used a rock to kill Ivy. Then she promised the case would be solved soon. There
is no evidence that Dustin was sexually abused. Police ultimately charged his brother for the murder, although his brother was found not guilty at trial, so the case is still unsolved, and she says it would be solved quickly, so again wrong. That same year, per the skeptical inquirer, Sylvia Brown's November thirtieth, two thousand and five reading for Samantha Materer, mother of
Christopher Mader, had a much clearer outcome. Brown gave the mother a name, which was again censored, and claimed Christopher's murder stemmed from the killer not liking the food at the bar he worked at. Then later the killer saw him passing by and shot him. Brown also told the mother to start looking where he ate breakfast. Matthew Coral and Sean Myers were charged with the murder, and Coral
was found guilty and Myers pled guilty. In twenty twelve, the two had attempted to rob Mader, again totally fucking wrong. Perhaps her most devastating fuck up was in two thousand and two, an eleven year old boy, Sean Hornbeck went missing while riding his bike. Shawn's parents went on the Montel Williams Show, and Sylvia told them their son was dead and that his body would be found buried beneath two boulders per an article on Grunge. Fortunately, not everyone
believed her. When a boy named ben Ohenby went missing. In two thousand and seven. Journalist Michelle McNamara, who would later be credited for helping to identify the Golden State Killer, connected Hornback and Owenby based on physical similarities and their ages when abducted. Sure enough, it was McNamara who was right. When Omby was found by law enforcement four days after his disappearance, they were shocked to find Hornbeck was still too.
He was still fucking alive. She did it again. She was wrong about another person that she declared dead to their families. It's great that he was alive, Thank fucking God.
And I'm glad that there was like an air of disbelief.
Yeah.
Hornbeck's father later told CNN hearing Brown's prediction was one of the hardest things We've ever had to hear, and that stuck with the guardians. John Ronson So the same year, two thousand and seven, he booked himself on a Brown lead cruise and got an interview. When he asked her what happened, she claimed she had focused on three missing children, two were dead, and I think what I did was I got my wires crossed. There was a blonde and two boys who are dead. I think I picked the
wrong kid still. Her ex husband Gary Duffrayan condemned her, saying the damage she does to unsuspecting people in crisis situations is just atrocious. Yeah yeah, clearly, Yeah yeah, uh yeah. It's all pretty bleak. And there's a lot of these that we could go through, Like, there's there's so many of these different like cases. The skeptical inquirer has like
a whole list of them. And even in the cases where she's kind of right, where like she got the the murder, the fact that someone was murdered right, and more or less the cause, she's always wrong about where the body is, what happened to it, all that stuff. Now, Sylvia doesn't limit her predictions to crimes or the personal
lives of her clients either. In her two thousand and five book Prophecy, Sylvia wrote that after Pope John Paul the Second passes, there will only be one more elected pope, and wrote he will be succeeded by what is essentially a triumvirate of popes. That's not what happened. I don't have to bust that myth. We all live through it. We're several popes down now, we've been going through popes left and right. You know, still it sounds fun having
three popes, but not yet palooza yep. In two thousand and eight, she wrote a book called End of Days, in which she predicted there would be a manned mission to Mars in twenty twelve, and in twenty eleven she predicted Mitt Romney would defeat Barack Obama in that next
year's presidential election. All wrong. In her later years, Sylvia attracted increasing criticism for being wrong about everything, but she stayed on tel v TV until late in her life and continued to give eight hundred and fifty dollars readings to thousands of customers who trusted her implicitly. On her website, she claimed an accuracy rate of between eighty seven and
ninety percent. A twenty ten analysis of one hundred and fifteen predictions she made on The Montel Williams Show, done by The Skeptical Inquirer rated her success as roughly zero percent. To really make that point for you, cal Sylvia predicts her own death in two thousand and three on The Larry King Show. She tells Larry that she would die on a peacefully at age eighty eight. She actually dies eleven years earlier, age seventy seven, on November twentieth, twenty thirteen.
Wrong right up to the end, barrel.
Whoa, Yeah, that is quite the roller coaster. Yeah, of I knew none of this. I knew she was and I knew none of this.
Yeah, it's so funny that like you can, really, you can really just be wrong constantly as long as you've got a fan base and it's okay, like they'll they'll back you up, you know, like she never loses the core of her support despite how wrong she's I guess it's a prediction for where we are today, like politically and and everything else.
There's a massive desire that we have to want to believe things. Yeah, so I can somewhat empathize with I mean, people who want to believe something.
Yeah.
Also, can we just acknowledge are you really This is not a call out to a parent who's desperate to find their kid, obviously, but yeah, like, are we really thinking that the Montel Williams Show is the the apex of how we're solving scientific crimes? Crimes? That's that's what we're all.
Elections.
And I think you're right on the money, Calan, that like it's everyone is to blame the viewers, the people on the show Montel Sylvia, but the parent because you can't like the parents can't effect to be sane when the kids have been kidnapped.
Of course, Like you see that that documentary on the Jerry Springer Show. No, it's fantastic, it's worth a watch. It's very silar to a lot of it, like peeling back the curtain on that just makes me think, you know, I don't I don't know anything about how the Mantel Williams Show worked, but obviously it's a TV show. So yeah, to your point earlier, ever, like the it's about entertaining people period more than anything else. And Springer was you know, the sort of most egregious version of that.
Yeah, yeah, it's it's I mean, it really is like pulling back an unfortunately, like a dark curtain on this part of my childhood that i'd never really analyzed more. Yeah, there's psychics on TV and they read it's fun and it's like no, no, no, it could be pretty harmful too. Sometimes they also defraud banks, which I have less of a problem with. That's not my primary issue with her. Well, you want to plug anything.
Oh sorry, no, go ahead, good.
Oh.
I was just asking if you had anything to plug at the end here, because we're coming to the end.
I would love to plug my podcast, which is not about psychics. It's called Here we Go Again and we look at topics through pop culture and politics, past present and future of the specific topic and hopefully leave the audience with a feeling a little smarter about what you learned and a little more hopeful about how you plug into that particular issue.
Awesome, Well hopeful sounds good right about now, So check that out. Thank you Cal for coming on the show. Thank you all for thank you for having me. That's going to be it for us today. Go way out, listen to something else Hie.
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