Part Three: How Lawrence of Arabia Invented Modern War - podcast episode cover

Part Three: How Lawrence of Arabia Invented Modern War

Nov 19, 202457 min
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Episode description

Robert tells Margaret how to scientifically shatter a bridge the T.E. Lawrence way, and how Lawrence crippled the transportation infrastructure of a mighty empire using some guys with camels and sacks of flour.

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Transcript

Speaker 1

Also media.

Speaker 2

Oh what, I don't even know. I don't even know. It's like three days before the election.

Speaker 3

I had a milkshake.

Speaker 2

You look so happy when you were drinking it, though. Tired, Oh yeah, no, it's great. Tired of everything, my everyone. I know.

Speaker 3

I'm wearing a hoodie.

Speaker 2

I'm wearing a hoodie. You guys, mm hmmm. Oh I am good stuff, good stuff. So how's uh, how's everyone doing? How's how were y'all feeling.

Speaker 3

The aforementioned high on sugar? Yeah, I'm uh.

Speaker 1

I've worked out really hard today, so I'm a little sore.

Speaker 2

I worked out a bit. I need to finish after this. But you know who never works out, Margaret.

Speaker 3

Uh, colonialism and ever world out?

Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean that's true. And I mean also, none of the people in this podcast episode work out anymore because they're all they've all been dead for decades. Oh, because we're talking about World War One. Yeah, there we go. That more or less worked.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

When we last left our friend Lawrence, he had just met auDA Abu Tayi of the Howitat tribe and Feisal, and auDA had decided that, with Lawrence's help, they were going to make an attack on the city of Akaba from the north. Now, this is kind of like the major central like action scene is beautiful in the movie. They they shoot it as this absolutely gorgeous like cavalry charge. And the gist of what's happening here is that Akaba

is this port city. It's got a bunch of guns that are trained on the sea, and after the disaster that had been you know, Gallipoli, the British aren't really interested in trying to take this critical port city by like a sea a naval invasion because that just doesn't tend to work out very well for them in this period.

Speaker 3

So they have to call upon the riders of Rohan.

Speaker 2

They do have to call upon the riders of Rohan. And the reason why this has a chance of working is that Lawrence is going to kind of Lawrence's idea that he and there's some debate here as to like who specifically decided to attack Akaba, but Lawrence seems to be the one who is, like, I can take instead of like marching in from either of the sides they expect.

The kind of back of this city is to this vast desert that is considered impassable because like how would you get a bunch of guys on foot across this right, Like, it's just absolutely some of the deadliest terrain on planet Earth.

And Lawrence is like, if we get a small force, you know, we can take this tiny gorilla and it's literally just a few dozen guys across this vast desert and then cross into the portion of Syria where the Hawatat keep their spring pastures, and we can find all the people who live in this area, rally them to our banner, and attack Akaba. According to Lawrence, when he broached this plan to Aouda, Aouda's response was all Gondor Yeah, yeah,

where was gondor when the when the Westfold fell? No, although he does give like I would say, an equally cool response to anything in the Lord of the Rings, he says, all things are possible with dynamite and English gold. That's an that's an an eternal truth. Enough dynamite and English gold, I feel like I could do anything too. Yeah, yeah, now this is you know, there's a bit of debate here as to like the extent to which Lawrence was

kind of central to all the planning here. In twenty fourteen, Iraqi historian Ali Alawi published a biography of Faisal, who, after the Great Arab Revolt, went on to be the first King of Iraq. His reappraisal of Feisal suggests that Lawrence was not the one to suggest Akaba as a location to attack, and that Feisal made that call on

his own. Now, I kind of feel like the the fact that Lawrence gets a lot gets credit for coming up with the idea of going after Akkaba in the first place is less Lawrence's fault and more sort of the fault of that Peter O'Toole movie. Because I went through Seven Pillars of Wisdom and I read the portions of the book which discuss Akaba, and there aren't a whole lot. There's not a whole lot of a Kaba talk in the book, not a whole lot of Akaba Takaba.

And it does not seem like what's in there from what's in there, I know I had to do it. I had to do it. It doesn't seem like to me like Lawrence was taking credit for the idea itself

just to attack the city. In fact, he notes that Feisal was unable to participate in the attack, which quote through the Ungrateful load of this Northern expedition upon myself, which sounds like he's saying it was not my idea, but Feisal was, you know, had to stay his base for this, so I had to like handle the implementation,

right oka. And he describes the fact that like he had to be the one on the ground doing it as leading to a dishonest implication, which I interpreted him being kind of uncomfortable with being given credit for dreaming up and executing the whole campaign.

Speaker 3

Which is probably one of the biggest problems with him in general, right, is how people like view him as like the one white guy who saved everyone or right right?

Speaker 2

Which is I mean? And I hope it's hard in a podcast episode focused on Lawrence, because there's so many people involved on every side of this to not have it seem like you are. I mean. And he does play a central role, but he's also not the only

shot guy. He's not the only shot he's certainly not the major shot collar on the British side either, right, Like General Allenby up in Palestine is making a lot of calls and making a lot of direction, Feisal is a major player here, and I think actually seven Pillars gives a pretty fair accounting of how that all actually worked out, and despite how central Akaba is to the movie, the actual battle the capture of the city only merits a couple of sentences in but really just a sentence

because all he writes about it in the book is we tricked the Turks and entered Akaba with good fortune, right, which is not like to be blown up into the absolute like center of this like four hour epic movie. Very funny is this?

Speaker 3

Now, they didn't do this with thirty six guys. They did this, but the thirty six guys went and got out and.

Speaker 2

Got other guys. Right. It was the thirty six or so far, I think it was like forty five or whatever that crossed the desert. And this is this is an amazing feat. It's like one of the most impressive feats of insurgent warfare because they they cross this massive, absolutely merciless desert with just literally nothing but what they are able to carry on them with their camels. Lawrence

and forty five men and each of his fighters. All they have on them is a forty five pound sack of a flower and all of the water they can carry. That's all they have. With them to keep them alive, rubber heroes. Just a huge sack of flower. Well, it won't go bad, you know, not in the time that you're out there. And I guess, like, yeah, that's that's all you got, flour and water to keep you moving.

Speaker 3

I mean sometimes raw calories will do. She said, high on sugar.

Speaker 2

Yeah, no, that's it's completely changed my prepping load out. All I keep in my truck is ninety pounds of flour in a bunch of water.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And the camel trailer was a good touch.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Yeah, I do have a camel.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

It's miserable here, a horrible place to have a camel. They do not do well in the Pacific Northwest.

Speaker 3

It's like huskies in New Orleans.

Speaker 2

Yeah. I think a big part of like why Akaba gets so so much focus is that it is kind of the first time Lawrence becomes a celebrity. Because at the time in which they successfully take Akaba, the Brits are kind of hungry for a win. The Western Front is mostly bad, Like even the good news is really bad news. Gallipoli was this catastrophe, and so the fact that like this is they're going to take this strategically important city from the Turks quite easily is a big deal.

So after two hideous months, it takes them two months to cross the desert. Like that's how long they're living off with a sack of flower desert oased a huge desert. Yeah, like this is an incredible feat. Lawrence and his guys reach the outskirts of Akaba, and by the time they get to the city itself, their numbers have grown to about a thousand. They recruit all these guys from the local tribes in the area and the Turks, who were slightly more competent in real life than in the movies.

The movie just shows Lawrence and his guy's writing and this glorious rowhim cavalry charge and they just smash the Turks. That's not at all what happens. They don't even actually fight in Akaba. What happens is the Turks send a five hundred and fifty man relief force to bolster a Kapa's defense, and before they can get to the city, Lawrence and his cavalry fall upon them in Ambush fort or forty or so miles north of the city, in

a place named Wadi Abba Alissan. And this battle, there's like a kind of funny like clown shit moment and that like it starts with this again very lord of the Ring shit. There's this argument between Lawrence and I think it's Outa about like who's going to attack where first, And finally Outa and his guy's charge in on one side, and so Lawrence is like, fuck, we have to charge it on the other, like just go, just go, just go, you know, we can't let them like beat us to there.

And then as they're running, Lawrence is just like like emptying his pistol like while charging on campmel back and he shoots his camel in the head. auDA loses his camel too. Outa has like fourteen bullet holes in his gear when this battle ends, and I don't think any of them actually hit his body. Like this guy is just a like a fucking dull key Character's amazing. He's got blot armor. Yes, he's got to. He's the main character.

Hell yeah. So as much of a shit show as that kind of sounds like, the battle goes incredibly well. They kill like three hundred something Turkish soldiers, absolutely destroy this entire force, and Lawrence loses. Lawrence and and out loose two men. Wow, yeah, which is like that's a that's a big dub. That's about as well as the battle could go. Yeah, so that's part of why this becomes so like famous, you know overseas is like, wow, what a fucking what a fucking coup. Now.

Speaker 3

I hope it was a different camel than the one that took him all the way across the desert. I hope you like switch in there.

Speaker 2

Yeah, Aerra Gord like charging at the fucking Battle of pelenor Fields and excellently cuts fucking horses head off. Yeah, Gandolf blasts a lightning bolt in the shadow facts. Yeah, the King of Horses just tumbling as they hit the Orc lines. I do also like to imagine that in like Aerra Gorn's version of Seven Pillars of Wisdom, like the whole Battle of Helm's Deep is just the Orcs attack that said Helm's Deep and we won. We figured it out, We figured it out, it was fine, our friends came.

Speaker 3

Yeah, well that is kind of like because Gandalf goes off to get help, right, Yeah, so he's just like yeah, yeah, yeah, he is the equivalent to him going through the desert anyway.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, now a big part of why Lawrence had been so motivated to take a Kaba because like there was debate, you know, should we should the French help us out with this? Are the British going to like, you know, attempt some sort of like landing Lawrence doesn't want any Europeans in the city because at this point

there's a lot of debate. We don't really know when he became aware of the sikes Pico agreement, which we're going to talk about and explain here, but that's basically the British French agreement that like split up the Middle East under their spheres of influence. Right, we don't know when Lawrence knew about it, But the actual answer is probably that doesn't really matter, because he was aware of the debate around what became sikes Picot right from pretty

much the beginning. So maybe he didn't know until late November, you know, nineteen seventeen, when it got leaked out that like this specific agreement had been signed, but he knew that his leaders and the French were talking about carving up the Arab world and he didn't want that to happen. Right, He was okay with the idea of the British having

a sphere of influence in the Arab world. He didn't want the French because again the French the genocide and stuff, he's not happy with them, and he's in general like he feels like there's this guilt that he's got kind of this whole time with the idea that like, I am fighting for Arab independence and I'm pretty sure my side is going to betray these people, right, that we're

not going to live up to our promises. So a big part of why he wants to take Akaba and he wants the Arabs to take Akaba is the more cities that they are in military control of when this thing ends, the better their odds of keeping those cities under their control. Right, Like, if the British or the French occupy Akaba, there's no getting them out, you know, like they're not going to lead, right, They're gonna set us a sheep.

Speaker 3

So, yeah, to do some terrorism in order to get the British or the French to lead.

Speaker 2

Yeah, But whereas you know, if if the Arabs are running Akaba like they're running Mecca, and then the French are like, okay, well we're gonna come in there. It's a lot easier to be like, well, no, like we already, we already have this set up. We're good.

Speaker 3

Yeah, what a mind fuck for Lawrence because yeah, I mean, like at least this version of him that's being presented, which makes sense to me. Yeah, yeah, he wants what's best, but he's like working within a flawed system and he knows that not just a flaw system, but an evil system. Yes, and he's like, oh, this is going to go badly, yes, but still being like, well it's better than letting the Turks?

Speaker 2

What else am I gonna do? It's he's he is. He is in a very complicated situation, and there's a lot to say about He is kind of lying to all of these Arab guys that he claims to love and consider brothers, right, He's he is not telling them the full truth, but he is also lying and actively kind of betraying England, like in a way because he he's actively trying to like he's not telling his superior officers.

He didn't tell them that he's planning to even attack Akaba this way, right, Like they don't find out until the city gets taken because he doesn't want them to make a move that would put them in the city. Right, So he is kind of he's kind of I mean, he's he's the situation he's in. He's kind of fucking over everyone to some extent. But I think he is overall trying to trying to secure what he sees as a good outcome for the Arabs, right again, doing the

paternalistic thing. If he's not going to tell them necessarily he does. There's some evidence that he eventually does kind of that he does talk to like come out about some of this to like Faisal, But it's all very murky right Like again, this is skulduggery and spycraft.

Speaker 3

I mean, I want the sixteen year old to have been secretly planning the whole thing.

Speaker 2

Right right. Yeah. Unfortunately we don't get a happy story ending for Dome. Ok. Yeah, it's a bummer. So the British government spins the Battle of Akaba into this like massive thing for them because they really needed the good propaganda. And when they start doing this, Lawrence he's got this

keen instinctive understanding of the moment that he inhabited. One of the things that makes him like such a such a an incredible figure here is that he has an understanding not just of all these dynamics of insurgent warfare, but of how propaganda plays into insurgent warfare and plays

into actually securing victory here. And he knows that now that the British are invested in his success because they need these wins, this is my best chance to get them, to force them to deliver guns and support from my Arab allies, which will allow them to take and hold more cities, which is going to give them the best odds of winning a state of their own and not just being cut apart by the great powers. So again, Lawrence is kind of aware of the broad strip strokes

of Syke's Pico. And to be clear, Sykes Pico never actually gets instituted. When we talk about these significance. It's not because they actually do Sykes Picot. It's because Sikes Pico is an evidence of the ways in which the British and French are talking about carving up the Middle East, and what finally gets done looks a lot like what Sykes Picot was planned to be, right, but it's not

exactly the same thing. Just to be clear here, because like actual scholars will be like well, they never really did, Sykes Picicau. It's just what happened was very similar, and it's evidence that this is how they'd been talking, right, yeah, for a long time. So at this point, the Brits are still reeling from several failed assaults on Jerusalem, where the Turks had beaten them back and established a dusty desert version of the trench stalemate on the Western Front.

A general named George Allenby was brought in to clean up the mess. And Alanby is more competent than most British generals, we'll say that, right, Like, not that he's got a spotless record here, but he's definitely like better than the guys who had been doing this before. And Lawrence knew that, you know. Once Allenby comes in as the only British officer with a major victory behind him, he was in a position to get a lot out

of it new boss. So he travels to where ALANB is and I think I think Allenby's and Palestine at this point, and he sits down with his boss to get alan B to send guns to his men. Lawrence's motivation here, according to Scott Anderson, was to sell allan B the World War One general equivalent of heroin, which is a promise that he can break a stalemate in front. Right, Lawrence is like, I can stop the Turks from getting

relief forces from Medina up to I think Jerusalem. And I can also, like basically ensure that you have as good a chance to break this stalemate as possible by carrying out my own offenses that pulls Turkish strength away. Right, Just give me the guns, Just give me the guns.

And here's how Anderson describes it. Lawrence vastly exaggerated both the strength and capability of those rebels already under arms to paint an enticing picture of a military juggernaut, the British advancing up the Palestine coast as the Arabs took the fight to the Syrian interior. Now that's succinct and overall accurate. But Laura, here's his own account of his meeting with Allenby and Seven Pillars is much more colorful. So I'm going to read that here because I just

really like the guy's writing. It was a comic interview. For Alan b was physically large and confident and morally so great that the comprehension of our littleness came slow to him. He sat in his chair looking at me, not straight as his custom was, but sideways, puzzled. He was newly from France, where for years he had been a tooth of the great machine grinding the enemy. He was full of Western ideas of gunpowder and weight, the

worst training for our war. But as a cavalryman, was already half persuaded to throw up the new school in this different world of Asia and accompany Donne and chetwode along the worn road of maneuver and movement. Yet he was hardly prepared for anything so odd as myself, a little barefooted silk skirted man offering to hobble the enemy by his preaching, if given stores and arms and a fund of two hundred thousand sovereigns to convince and control his converts. Alan b could not make out how much

was genuine performer and how much Charloton. The problem was working behind his eyes, and I left him unhelped to solve it.

Speaker 3

WHOA I left him unhelped.

Speaker 2

I loved the way he writes.

Speaker 3

He's like, yeah, I was lying him to figure it out.

Speaker 2

He knew he knew I was, but he didn't know how much not my job to figure that out for him anyway. You know what I'm not gonna leave you unhelped to do, listener is purchase the products and services that support this podcast.

Speaker 3

I'm gonna spend my money on gambling.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that's that's where Lawrence would spend all of those those sovereigns. You know that, really money is always on gambling. Yeah, yeah, gamble out with your handle out, I don't know whatever. Fuck it. Ah, we're back and we're talking t E. Lawrence. So Lawrence is, you know, too canny to everything he Lauren, t He Lawrence, that's right, t He because he's sneaky. Yeah, so his own ambitions are a lot more modest than

what he's trying to sell. Alan beyond right, he doesn't he doesn't really believe, you know, he knows the reality of the strength of his forces, and he wants all these guns to build a more disciplined insurgent movement that will be kind of the core of this Arab state, right, and part of what he wants, Like he's he's kind of less focused on these big offensives that Alan be wants because he understands that the tactics these Western Front tactics had led his you know, were not the way

to win in the desert. So after Akaba he takes he embarks on yet another like historically significant recon campaign. He takes two men with him and alone against a vast desert. They travel like a thousand miles or something like, this massive journey scouting out all of these Turkish positions. The whole operation was inspired by a recognition on Lawrence's part that thus far the war had involved haphazard playing with men in movement, and he saw that this had

worked for them, but largely out of luck. And quote vowed to know henceforth before I moved where I was going and by what roads.

Speaker 3

No delegator.

Speaker 2

This guy, he is not. He does a lot on his own, like he. I think part of it is that he can't really make these plans unless he feels the ground beneath him, right, Like, that's just the kind of thinker he is. I think he just also likes it too, Yeah, totally. The purpose of this recon campaign was to help Lawrence figure out how to build what he called a ladder of tribes across Syria, eventually leading

from Akaba to Damascus. Describing this plan, James Schneider writes the nature of the operations would be like naval war in mobility, ubiquity, independence of bases and communications, ignoring of ground features, of strategic areas, of fixed locations of fixed points. Lawrence would command the desert camel raiding parties, self contained like ships, might cruise confidently along the enemy's cultivation frontier, sure of an unhindered retreat into their desert element which

the Turks could not explore. That's so interesting to be that he's thinking about this like a naval war. Each of these small insurgent squads is like a ship right independent alone on the sea.

Speaker 1

You know.

Speaker 2

Yeah, it's so fluid and you have to think the mind it takes to keep track of this as well as he does. Yeah, not that he doesn't fuck up. He's got after Akaba. There's a major defeat that like he has kind of when he overstretches his his forces. But like you know, for for the most part, this is an extremely successful campaign. So during the ride into Akaba, he had worked out exactly how far a unit of camel riders could operate with a forty five pound bag

of flour and a pint of water. They could operate alone for like six weeks, right, that's his assuming.

Speaker 3

That I guess they're at getting water.

Speaker 2

So yes, yes, they know where there are like places to get water. And so these forces, these small straw, yeah, life straw. These tiny units of camel riders just just powered by flower and water have an operational range of two thousand miles without re supply, right, that's how far they can.

Speaker 3

Go and rules.

Speaker 2

Yeah, it's fucking cool. And when you look at that range and you compare it to like an automan company of infantry on foot can handle, which is like a couple of miles past the railway, you see what a nightmare he's created for the automance at these little rating parts. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, it's like you are trying to fight a naval war with infantry treading in the water, right, And that's what the Turks are trying to do. Yeah, I'm going to

quote from Schneider again. Because of long standing feuds and jealousies, it became virtually impossible to integrate or amalgamate the various tribes, nor could one antithetic tribe operate in the territory of another to overcome this organizational constraint, Lawrence operated in the greatest dispersion possible, which contributed greatly to his agility, fluidity,

and mobility. Maximum disorganization created maximum articulation. As with a box of legos, Lawrence could any organization and function as unique as the new task at hand, for each mission was unlike any other and had to be considered afresh. The lego like articulation meant that the enemy response could never develop a classic order of battle, for there was no order, only disorder. His system was unsystematic.

Speaker 3

That's cool. One of the things I'm really obsessed with strategically is how chaotic forces can integrate into traditional war and like, yeah, and how yeah, Like I think we see this in activism all the time, is people try to get all of these groups to be like, oh, if only they were all under one command, and you're like, you're not playing to your strengths at that point. Yeah, Like, having diverse movements is stronger if you do it right.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean because kind of the difficulty and the trouble with you know, the kind of activist we know is you need both, you need this maximum articulation rights.

As Schneider describes it, But you also do need a vision, a central vision, because you have you have this ultimate disorganization, this incredibly flat hierarchy compared to the other militaries of the day, but you also have Lawrence at the center of this spider web, pulling in each direction, right, like making the actual like polls, which is is very tough. There's not a lot of Lawrences out there.

Speaker 3

Now.

Speaker 2

I do love that line. Maximum disorganization created maximum articulation. I think there's a lot of wisdom in that. So a big part of why these forces work is that unlike the vast conscript armies of the Western Front, Lawrence's soldiers are all either believers or at least at least there willingly for the money, right because like some of these Lawrence kind of Lawrence talks them up. You know, he has a line their only contract was honor, which

is debatably true. Like Auta, who we've been talking about, is going to make an approach to the Turks and like be like, hey, if you bribe me, I'll switch sides. And he may have been considering switching sides, but he also just robs the Turkish guy with the money. But it's unclear because of when everyone else finds out what he's done. It's unclear was his plan from the beginning just to rob, just to rob the Ottomans, or did

he move? Did he decide, well, I guess I'll just rob this guy once he got caught because he didn't want to. He didn't want to get like, you know, murdered or whatever. Right, Like, was he actually trying to beat turned trader? Or did he just was his plan from the beginning, Hey, I bet these guys are dumb enough to send a bunch of money my way and then I just have to kill the guy bring it, And I don't give a fuck. I am a sand pirate, you know.

Speaker 3

Yeah, totally, totally. The honor among thieves question is one, yeah.

Speaker 2

Yeah, and and Ouda is not the kind of guy who gives a shit about your conceptions of honor. He has his own code for sure, But I don't I don't think anyone else really fully understands it. Lawrence wrote, quote, irregular war was far more intellectual than a bayonet charge, far more exhausting than service, and the comfortable imitative obedience of an ordered army. Gorillas must be a loud liberal work room in a regular war of two men together.

One was being wasted. Our ideals should be to make our battle a series of single combats, our ranks a happy alliance of agile commanders in chief.

Speaker 3

Yeah, no, I like it.

Speaker 2

I like that too. So one of the key points here is that, unlike most European officers in similar situations, Lawrence had not taken Well, I said, he's taken nothing of Western military doctrine. That's not really true. He's just taken He's taken some Western doctrine that is not popular with other people, because that Austrian disachs is kind of someone who had been writing a lot of the same things.

And Lawrence is very influenced by Desaks, but Dessaks is certainly not influencing like British strategy at the sam You know, right, nothing but machine guns are really influencing that, right, It's all these guys who want to be Hannibal but can't think of anything more creative than throwing their men into the teeth of a bunch of German guns. What's interesting about Lawrence is that, you know, for all that he is an imperialist, he does not fall to the temptation

of imposing British standards on these Bedouin fighters. His only thought is to give them modern English guns so that they can fight their way. And he's writing the whole time he's got to try it. He's trying to argue to his superiors as to why this is how they should handle the whole era of revolt. He writes a series of twenty seven articles meant for publication among British

officers stationed in Arabia. Now these are part propaganda. Some of what's in these is Lawrence lying about the strength of the Bedouins to make a case, you know, as to why they should be supported. But he also includes a lot of very good advice on how European officers should change their thinking to avoid bringing Western Front problems to this new war zone. Like he is trying to explain like why they ought to respect the Bedouin, and how to respect the Bedouin, how to kind of let

these people do what works. The next phase of the war sees Faisals raiders launched this bl lizard of attacks against Ottoman positions around the Jjah's railway, destroying sections of track and bridges, but also things like watering holes that train operators relied upon for coolant. Lawrence again leads many of these raids from the front. He counted that during this period he personally destroyed seventy nine bridges, which is that's like hurricane level of bridge destruction.

Speaker 3

Lawrence is done, Hurricane Lawrence.

Speaker 2

Hurricane Lawrence. Yeah, Lawrence often would set the charge himself, and he became something of an innovator in the field of explosives by helping to develop this technique that he called scientific shattering. Now, the point of this, this is very interesting, was to ruin the bridge, making it unfit for transit, but to leave it standing right. And the logic here is that a standing bridge that's ruined can't just be repaired first. You have to destroy it before

you can rebuild it. Whereas it just blow it up. Then all they have to do is like clear records are.

Speaker 3

Way right, He doesn't have to work for him, right.

Speaker 2

This extends the time. If you fuck the bridge up scientifically, they have to spend even more time destroying it the rest of the way before they can rebuild it. Now, I know all of you listeners at home are taking notes. How do I scientifically shatter a bridge? I've never blown up a bridge yet, But I can read a quote from Lawrence's book to describe how he did it. Yet. Hey, what do you mean yet? Yeah, I haven't yet, So that's just a factual statement. I haven't destroyed any bridges yet.

Speaker 3

Before we do this, I once was hitchhiking and into Louisville, Kentucky, and the trucker who picked me up was this older I think Vietnam vet. He's pretty quiet the whole drive, and he's like dropping us off in the middle of the night, and he like does the trucker thing where he just like stops the entire like when he wants to do something, he just stops the truck in al traffic, just has to deal with it, you know. And before we get out, he turns to us and goes, you, kid's ever blown up a bridge?

Speaker 2

Amazing stuff? No, sir, oh no, we're children.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

So here's how Lawrence describes to blow up a bridge. Hastily we set about the bridge, a pleasant little work eighty feet long and fifteen feet high, honored with a shining slab of white marble bearing the name and titles of Sultan Abd el Hamide. In the drainage holes of the spandrel six small charges were inserted zigzag and with their explosion all the arches were scientifically shattered. So there you go, guys, put some dynamite in the drainage holes

and let her rip. You know, Now you can go take out bridges, which you shouldn't.

Speaker 3

Do, especially not with someone that you meet at food not bombs, or some activist circle.

Speaker 2

That's kind of go badly for everyone. Don't destroy any bridges unless you find yourself taking part in an Arab revolt against Ottoman power. If that's the case, you know, if you get transported back in time to nineteen sixteen and you have to help the Bedouins fight for their independence from the Ottomans, then it's probably okay to blow up some bridges. Or if it's your bridge, you know, or if it's your bridge, if you make a bridge used to stop you, right, maybe someone owns a demolition

company out there. There's lots of legal reasons to destroy a bridge right now. The bulk of the insurgent work that Lawrence does in this period is done by Camelback, but for his own team of raiders. Lawrence is going to eventually settle on a different mode of transportation, which is these armored Rolls Royce cars. They do get they do. They are by the end of this like cruising around and Rolls Royce as blowing up bridges, which is pretty gangster.

Speaker 3

Is it the same level of luxury car that it's seen as now?

Speaker 2

No, I mean I don't think so. At this point. These are armored cars. So these sturdy vehicles allow the nine man team that he preferred for commando work to carry hundreds of pounds of gun caught and explosives and move rapidly from target to target. Well, Lawrence was helping to execute a successful insurgency in the heart of Ottoman territory. The powers that be in the British Empire had started to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

The Americans were almost to the Western Front, and with the possibility of victory came the sweet prospect of carving up the Ottoman world for European consumption. If you spend literally any length of time talking to people in the Arab world today and asking them, in brief why is everything so fucked up? Every conversation will at some point circle back to Sykes be Go. During the fighting against isis.

I talked about Sykes Pico with like twelve year old boys, right, people know it over there, and it's the thing I think a lot of Americans don't really know much about. It is, as one New Yorker article aptly described it, the curse that still haunts the Middle East.

Speaker 1

Now.

Speaker 2

The first of the men that Sykes Pico was named after was essentially a dark mirror of Lawrence. Sir Mark Sykes was the son of Sir Tetan Sikes, who married an eighteen year old girl at age forty eight and then disowned her publicly in the newspaper when she spent too much of his Money's that's Mark's dad, Yeah, a lot of pieces of shit in the British nobility. Dark was their only child, and he spent his childhood moving between his father's thirty four thousand acre estate and his

mother's London home. He traveled the Ottoman Empire regularly as a tourist with his dad, and then when he became a young man, he joined the military and participated in

the Boer War. He became a Conservative member of Parliament and he writes books about like the Ottoman Empire and the you know and kind of the Islamic world right, and he is during the First World War kind of one of the first major at He's a major advocate within the British government for the independence of Arabs, Armenians, Jews and Turks, right, so long as that independence existed

under European control and profit. And his thinking here is less these people deserve their independence, and more if we cut them up into individual little like quasi states under our control, it's going to be a lot easier to keep everyone dominated, right, Oh shit, uh huh yeah. Over the last for a few pre war years, Sykes had become the Empire's red is it an expert on the Arab world based on the strength of him like vacationing there a bunch, right, and the fact that he was a baronet.

Speaker 3

He was writing his picture of this character so easily.

Speaker 2

Daddy, Daddi, daddi. He was referred to as the mad Mulla as he watched rush around London building support for this Arab revolt against the Ottomans, who he hated for the squalor and poverty that he saw in cities like Damascus. Now, he's not entirely misguided here, because the Ottomans are not good rulers, but his feeling that the way to improve things was to set Europeans up over the poor bumbling Mohammedans.

Sykes was paired with Francois George Picot, a French diplomat, to portion out the Ottoman Empire into little bits to various powers. As the war worked towards a close, there were a lot of hopeful claims. Italy wanted the Aegean Islands, Greece wanted traditional Byzantine territory in modern Turkey. Russia wanted that some good some of that good Asia minor shit as well, although they're not going to be, you know, at the table for very long here because of that

whole Bolshevik revolution. And of course the Zionists wanted a

Jewish homeland in Palestine. And it's interesting one of the big I was actually kind of unaware of this, one of the big like, one of the reasons why there's a support for the Zionists is people who are is like people in the British government who are scared that Russia is going to collapse under a socialist revolution and are like, well, if we give the Jews a homeland, obviously, all socialists are Jews, right, so if you give them a homeland, you know, in Palestine, then maybe they'll leave

Russia and they won't destroy Russia, right like that. That's literally why a lot there's a lot of early support for Zionism among the British government. It's like this super concentrated racism.

Speaker 3

God, I love how Schrodinger's jew where you're either a capitalist or a communist or something both at once.

Speaker 2

Yes. No, yes, you control all the money and are a left wing radical yes.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

So this was to put mildly if you are people like Sykes and Pico, any of the people you know in the British government above Lawrence's level, who are trying to figure out what the post war is going to look like for this region, there's a lot to keep in mind, right, there's a lot of competing claims. There's a lot of different you know, national groups that are kind of agitating for independence too.

Speaker 3

They're just gonna ignore it at all and just cut it up, willy nilly.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that's more or less what Sykes is going to do because he's British, right, so he's only focused on mostly yeah, yeah, he's mostly focused on his country's closest ally France, right, and France wants something they called greater Syria. Right, they think, obviously this is natural French territory. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In deference to the large number of young men that France had thrown into the woodshippers on the Western Front,

they got most of what they wanted. The fact that they were doing a fifty to fifty genocide ratio in the Muslim majority areas that they had governed in the past should have been a warning that, like, this is not going to go well. But no one anywhere has ever learned a lesson ever. Know, that's the primary lesson of history is that no one learns lessons, and no one has learned any lessons from France fucking around in Algeria.

Speaker 3

So I haven't even learned this lesson.

Speaker 2

Now. It would have been obvious at the time that what you know, the planning going into sykes Pico was would lead to catastrophe. The Ottoman Empire had been collapsing for some time. In eighteen thirty, France had taken Algeria and immediately done a genocide to put down the rebels there. They had gained control of Tunisia in eighteen eighty one, and they actually waited until nineteen fifty eight and before

they did a genocide in Tunisia. So really, I mean like it's kind of impressive they've got you know, they got more responsible.

Speaker 3

That's nice for French patients, you know, the Friz.

Speaker 2

Yeah, they have patients. They waited almost a whole century

before they did a genocide in Tunisia. Now, under the final agreement between France and England, a large region of the Ottoman heartland directly above Syria would be under direct French control, while a triangle that included a Leppo, Damascus and Mosel would be like kind of independent but under heavy French influence, whereas the British would have an area of influence that was like this large chunk of the desert on the peninsula south of the French mandate, and

they would hold direct control over much of modern Iraq stretching to the Arabian Gulf. Sykes would go on to solidify his role as one of the most harmful dudes to ever cause harm by also pushing the Balfour Declaration to the British Cabinet in November of nineteen seventeen. He's like one of the forces behind the Balfour Declaration.

Speaker 3

And this is like the early Zionists.

Speaker 2

Yes, yes, although the actual declaration itself spends more time talking about like Jewish populations in European countries, right because a lot of in the chaos in Russia, a lot of like Jewish people had fled Russia and like wound up in England, wound up in other European like that is actually more of what the declaration is. But kind of the outcome of the declaration, is this the first time that there's official British government support behind the Zionist

desire for a homeland in Palestine. The actual text of the declaration, like of the agreement being made, is like that, of course, no one will be displaced, none of the none of the current like inhabitants of Palestine will be displaced as result of this.

Speaker 3

Yea in tgic.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, through magic in true imperial fashion. Sikes's primary justification for supporting the Balfour Declaration was his own rampant anti Semitism. He believed that if Great Jewry was against us, the Allies had no hope for final victory. Right, because again, these guys are both communists and they control all the money, right, Yeah, And they're.

Speaker 3

Also both incredibly strong and are they're they're weak, sniveling, effeminate people who will absolutely destroy us if they get the chance.

Speaker 2

Right. It's it's the common like proto fascist bullshit.

Speaker 3

Which we're dealing with right now in America about the left. Sure, anti fun stuff, Yes.

Speaker 2

Yes, it's it's it's I mean, it's just kind of these people, right, Sikes Is Sykes is the kind of guy you see all throughout history, and in this case he's anti semitically talking himself for Desionism, which is a fascinating part of the history of this whole of this whole moment.

Speaker 3

Yeah, very common, Yes, of encouraging Zionism at this time.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Now, after setting up like a third of the twentieth and twenty first centuries worst dominoes, Sikes lives happily until, in a rare wind for humanity, he dies a flu in nineteen nineteen. So again I have to keep going back to, like, is influenza so bad?

Speaker 1

You know?

Speaker 3

Yeah, Spanish flu got somebody.

Speaker 2

It took out Sykes. That's not the worst, you know. So back to our boy t E. Lawrence. We don't know precisely when he found out that sykes Pico was a thing. The agreement first entered public awareness in late nineteen seventeen, after the October Revolution led to the overthrow

of the Czar. The Bolsheviks get a hold of a bunch of different like paperwork, right that you know, had been in the hands of the Tzar's government, and some of that is the sikes Pico agreement, and yeah, later government you get the Yeah, Trotzky actually seeks a copy of sykes Pico to a newspaper, right, and then The Guardian publishes the details in English media for the first time after this In early reporting on the manner, Lennon called sikes Pico quote the agreement of colonial theeves. And

there's really no fact based argument against that. Yeah, that's that he was just right. He was just correct on that.

Speaker 3

Well, didn't they weren't these the like I think they were called protectorates or something. There was like a different word. They were like, oh, we don't, we don't know this.

Speaker 2

We're just gonna get a lot of these are spheres of influence, right, yeah, yeah, So when and again, this is not sex becou is not what actually happened, specifically because like they get carved up, you get like a rack, you get Jordan, and right that none of that's in sychs Pico. That all comes later, but six Picot is kind of evidence of what they've agreed to, basically, right, it's the broad strokes of what's going to happen. So when Lawrence had left Cairo, this had not all been

as settled as it was by November. The British government's official line and still was that it was inciting an Arab revolt to secure their total independence. Lawrence clearly knew that there was some extent to which this was bogus from the beginning, which is why he wrote in Seven Pillars, hardly one day in Arabia passed without a physical ache to increase the corroding sense of my accessory deceitfulness towards the Arabs and the legitimate fatigue of responsible command. Right.

So the fact that this is all a lie is wearing on Lawrence, especially since the greater part of his job was to personally negotiate deals with various Arab tribes to fight the Ottomans with the promise of independence after the war. In letters back to his superiors. Lawrence protested what became Sykes Pico. Anthony Satin describes this for an article in Al Jazeera. He objected loudly to the agreement

for several reasons. He thought that the French should be allowed nothing, having behaved so badly in Algeria and elsewhere in Northwest Africa. He thought a post war commonwealth of Arab states under British tutelage might work, and he protested it having to ask Arab forces to fight on what he called a lie. I can't stand it, he insisted.

And yet he continued. And if we're looking for like Lawrence as a bastard, this is this is getting into some of the better cases for it, right because, like he talks about how much he hates this, he is trying to like trying to work against Sykespico on the ground, but he also knows what his government is planning, and he's he's kind of being a pied piper to these guys that he cares about as it goes on.

Speaker 3

Oh that's wild, because he's also overall he's someone who's trying to act based on morality rather than like cold strategy. He's obviously strategic thinker, right, but he's like, yeah, he's thinking, you know, because geopolitically you have to give the French something, And he's like, no, I don't deserve anything because they're terrible.

Speaker 2

But they're dicks, fuck up.

Speaker 3

Yeah yeah, yeah, Like, whereas he's able to sell himself on the idea that the British protectorate or sphere of influence won't be as bad. Yeah, and some of that might be even some of his own like show from being from that culture, but also it might have been an honest appraisal of the situation. But then yeah, like he's like trying to act more from a moral position, but he knows he can't. Oh that's so right.

Speaker 2

I mean, yeah he could have.

Speaker 3

He could have just been like I have been tired.

Speaker 2

Abound and you know, yeah, but he doesn't. Yeah, so uh so he's canceled. So he's canceled. Yes, we're canceling t E. Lawrence. We've decided. The fight against sikes Peco was to dominate the next years of Lawrence's life. But he would have missed the public reveal of sikes Pico in November for a very unfortunate reason, which is that

that month he was captured by the Ottomans. If it now, we're this is actually one of those ifs, because we this may be something he lied about, but if it happened, this happened while he was conducting one of his many recon missions. He describes in Seven Pillars of Islam that he was hiding himself as a circassian in the city

of Derah when he was drafted. Basically, like they see a young man walking around and they're like, you're in the army now, buddy, right, because he's good, he's good enough at hiding that he's like a circassian, right that they think, okay, well, we got a time for you to be a member of the army that you're fighting now. Lawrence says, basically, like the draft was just kind of

an excuse to take me in the custody. What happened really is the governor wanted to fuck me, right, And he describes lengthily how he was beaten and tortured and then gang raped by the governor and his guards in Seven Pillars. This is like and it's interesting because like this is a page is long description of like torture and rape. He doesn't quite describe openly sexual penetration but basically everything else, right, And it is ultimately published in

nineteen twenty two. I don't know if Lawrence was the first famous man of the twentieth century to write publicly about being raped, but the list ahead of him can't have been long, right, Like, there can't be a lot of competition for that role you were.

Speaker 3

Really really into, like, and then the curtains are drawn, yeah, historically with their writings.

Speaker 2

Yeah, And he does that a bit, right, Like he's not as open about like he doesn't describe it in but he's like, this is like it's a very detailed description of like the torture and stuff, to the point that the people who think this is faked is kind of like Lawrence is sort of like writing his own sexy fan fiction.

Speaker 3

Oh, because he's a masochist maybe, right, you know, maybe or this is why he's a masochist. It's to try this is right, he's.

Speaker 2

A masochist because he's raped and tortured.

Speaker 3

Yes, yeah, as a way to you know, experience the same thing, but under his own control.

Speaker 2

Right right, And you know, I'm gonna tell you right now what actually happened here was unknowable to us right now there. I am going to give the best arguments as to like why this is fake, because I think that's responsible. I tend to think it was probably real. But I'm not a historian. Yeah, So I debated whether or not to read some quotes from this portion of Seven Pillars. I opted not to because, like it's really upsetting stuff like this is a legitimately upsetting description of

torture and sexual assault. In recent years, some Lawrence biographers, namely James Barr, who authored Desert on Fire, have argued that Lawrence could not have been in deraw when he claimed this happened, and have even found evidence that he doctored his notes to further this lie. Barr's argument is that Lawrence came up with this story later after the war to quote discredit Arab militants in the precarious postwar climate. I find this an odd argument, which is not really

in line with Lawrence's other post war behavior. But in my research for this, I did run across a couple of pieces of evidence that might be seen as evidence that Lawrence's lye continues to work in the present day, like discrediting on Arabs. But like these these kind of like some of these local fighters. Here's a segment I found from the website on the website first World War dot com, and this is talking about like the Ottoman

use of rape as a weapon. This indig was more often inflicted on members of the officer class and the belief that it robbed them of their authority as a leader of men, sometimes resulting in the victim's suicide. The Ottoman Turks were infamous for inflicting it throughout the Great War on captured Indian troops, beating and gang raping enemy officers. Often as a matter of due course. Prisoners and garrisons often had personnel who specialized in this abuse, although there

was nothing homosexual about it. And this is kind of contra to Lawrence's description because he does describe this as being a very like the the governor and his men are homosexual, right, they like they want to fuck Lawrence. And that's kind of the result of all this.

Speaker 3

Well, you just get into ideas of like what counts as homosexual being like right, in a lot of different places, the active person as not the gay person, you know.

Speaker 2

Right, Yeah, and there's a yeah, we'll talk more about this, but first, wait, have we done our second ad break. Now, Okay, here's some ads. Motherfucker back. So you know we're talking about was Lawrence of Arabia gang raped? Uh yeah, light dinner topic. Now, when it comes to like the anti site of this, bar is joined in doubt by academics

like Adrian Greeves. Greeves make some points that I find compelling, particularly that the Turks were unlikely to have believed for days that Lawrence was really an Arab captive or Circassian captive. But he also takes issue with the fact that Lawrence didn't bring this up until nineteen nineteen. Right, That's one of Barr's pieces of evidence that like this is probably fake, is that Lawrence didn't talk about it. And I'm like, no, it's not really weird that you'd wait, like a couple

of years to talk about your gang rape. Like, yeah, that's not I don't really think that counts the way that you seem to think it does. Yeah, And there's also some gay panic adjacent stuff in some of these arguments. Historian David Fromkin has suggested Lawrence made up the rape to explain marks from his alleged sato masochistic kink. I don't know who is right here, but I do want to read this line from an article on Cleo's Visualizing

History website. Biographer John E. Mack, however, accepts the story and Lawrence's later assertion at that what happened to him at Deraw apparently did permanent damage to his psyche, and there is compelling evidence for this damage. Although separating what might have been caused from the rape, what was PTSD? Right because of the war and all of the illness, right like you get PTSD from nearly dying repeatedly, a

various like shit yourself to death illnesses. There's no way to separate this, right like Lawrence is after about a year or so, because he's really not there all that long. He's there like a like two years. In all, he is just a pile of PTSD stitched together together into the crude image of a man.

Speaker 3

On one of his best days. He shot his own camel in the head by accident. That was one of the best days.

Speaker 2

His winds like he is just destroyed as a person. And yeah, it is I think very consistent. Now Barr has a really good point when he kind of pieces out it can't have happened exactly the way Lawrence describes it in the book, right, because we know there's some just some things about the timing of where he was win that don't work out. That doesn't mean he didn't it didn't happen in another city and he Leiden said

it was Dera for some reason. There's they're also just like people fuck up, right, Like Lawrence is going.

Speaker 3

Sick thing to remember really well, yeah, we'll talk.

Speaker 2

About this in the next episode. Lawrence is going to like destroy his notes several times and just and lose

drafts of this book and have to rewrite it. So like some errors probably got introduced, but it is now agreed and even and Barr even writes that, like, broadly speaking, Seven Pillars is quite accurate as in its descriptions of what happened in the Arab revolt, right, And I tend to think this probably happened to Lawrence, And part of why is because he has a personality shift after this point and it kind of loses his mind in a way that seems very much like, oh, yeah, I bet

if you were gang raped and then suddenly had an army and a bunch of Turkish soldiers surrendering to you, this might be how you'd act, right, is.

Speaker 3

Where he's gonna go.

Speaker 2

He is going he is going to kill a lot of people in part four, Margaret, Oh shit, he is going to kill a ton of dudes.

Speaker 3

Like the bastard's formula is to get you to become sympathetic with a terrible person and then like about halfway through, but you've had me for the first three acts.

Speaker 2

I don't know. I still he's going to commit war crimes. I still don't know that this makes him a terrible person. Like it's a bad thing to have done, right, But I don't know that anyone who is capable of doing the things that he's done up to this point and in a war, who is capable of the competences that he showed, would by this point be able to have better judgment in this way, right, Which isn't to say

like it's fine that he did this. It's just that like, well, anyone in this position would have would be out of their minds by a certain point, because that's just what like personally, like orchestrating an insurgent campaign in the desert while shitting yourself to death and nearly dying every single day, and gunfights like it just ruins, you you know, like he is just shattered as a man, and there's a very good chance part of that science he's tortured and

gang raped. Yeah, like who would be doing well after this?

Speaker 3

Yeah, and blow up the bridge. They just dismantled it.

Speaker 2

Yeah, they dismantled it, but they left Yeah, they left the shape intact right again. He's just like a bunch of trauma piled into a bag shaped like T. E. Lawrence at this point. Yeah, this man is so fucked up. Speaking of fucked up, Margaret, let's go get fucked up and then come back to record part four. And by fucked up, I mean I'm.

Speaker 3

Actually gonna I do with sugar. But I've had a lot of it.

Speaker 2

I'm high on life, Margaret, which is a powerful mix of heroin and uh.

Speaker 3

That's all life. Yeah, it's it's a new gas station drug.

Speaker 2

Yeah, it's a new gas station drug. That's what I call it. When I mix Kraton and those yellow Jacket pills and then just a bunch of five hour energy and grind that up into a shake with a little bit of milk, a little bit of old milk, you know, just for flavor.

Speaker 3

Wow.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I guess we don't do that. Friends that friends and said, you should purchase Margaret Culture's new.

Speaker 2

Book if they sell it in Yeah, purchase Margaret's new book, you know, Uh, the Sapling Cage. It's excellent. Uh.

Speaker 3

And if you're listening to this several weeks ago, you can go see Robert and I talk in Portland.

Speaker 2

Yes, yes, yeah, this will have happened long before by the time this airs, possibly in a world where we're all preparing for a fascist takeover of the governments world.

Speaker 1

This will be great.

Speaker 2

It'll be great.

Speaker 3

Yeah, it's amazing.

Speaker 1

Also, I really want to plug something we just did one it could happen here. James Stout, who is a phenomenal journalist that works on the show, just a week long series about the dairy and grap and land migration.

Speaker 3

So I haven't listened to it yet. I've talked to amazing. Yeah, it's amazing. So please please check that out. Yeah that.

Speaker 1

Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

Speaker 3

You get your podcasts.

Speaker 1

Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash At Behind the Bastards

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