Part One: The Jordan Peterson Episode

for having me on this live podcast. M H. Now, Cody, you know that we're live, which means we're not going to be able to edit out any of your racist rants against the Swiss. Okay, I mean that's why I say them. I don't, I don't. I don't rant about that so people cannot hear it. We have been protecting Cody from getting Swiss canceled for years, but today we're doing a live episode and bring it on. Bring it on like the Swiss spring one just missed me with

the Swiss. Let me tell you. Okay, So, Cody, we got a fun episode this week in a special episode that I brought you on for because I know that you're a huge fan of the guy we're going to be talking about this week. Doctor fans doctor. He's a doctor, Jordan's B. Peterson. I love Jordan Peterson, who's a doctor. I respect. Um. I am very happy that you're doing this episode and that I get to partake in it. Um. He's a He's one of my heroes. So yeah, you love him. I love him. Uh. Watched a lot of

his speeches lectures. I guess you'd call him sermons. One might call him. He might call them sermons. He might call them sermons. We'll talk about that. Uh yeah, yeah, I mean so you know, you know I joke about starting a cult a lot on this show. Yeah, I do. I do. And there's jokes, the jokes to join your cult, they're not entirely jokes because I will probably start a cult one It's kind of my retirement plan because I don't really think four O one ks are going to

be useful that far into the future. But having a cult, you know, you always make money what I call yeah, absolutely cash in on people. And that's why we're talking about Jordan B. Peterson today, because he's not a cult leader in the traditional sense, um, but he did create a cult. Like it's a weird situation because he never like had a bunch of people move on to land

and wound fight you know, federal law enforcement agencies. I guess in Canada that would be the mount he's But he still does have a cult, and they, if you like, go to their little spaces on Reddit and stuff, like, they are still they are completely devoted to this man and his ideas, even though spoilers his life has got completely I was gonna say, like, I didn't realize that they was still going that strong, Like I don't because

because he disappeared, because because things are crumbling for him, because his life has been shattered by his own Yes, yes, yeah, but but yeah, I thought I might assume that there there would be people that's still doing that, but I haven't. I haven't delved into the spaces in a while. Yeah, So good for them, Good for them. Yeah, Yeah, it's fun, It's very fun. So we're gonna we're gonna talk about Jordan B. Peterson, um, and we're going to talk about fascism.

Because while I'm not sure if I would call Dr Jordan B. Peterson a fascist, I would say he's one of the most insidious platformers of a specific strain of ideology that feeds into the fascist movement in the United States worldwide. It's fun. I would agree with that. I I actually might go a little farther than you. Um and yeah to label him. Um yeah. I feel like we might just we might just give the whole story and then people can apply their own labels to Jordan's

Alhazara Peterson. Before we talk about Dr Jordan B. Peterson, I'd like to talk about the Bolshevik evolution. Now, this is a topic that that Dr Jordan B. Peterson is

particularly obsessed with. Multiple interviewers will note that his house is absolutely filled with Soviet propaganda, much of it from like the early eras of that regime, and when questioned about it, he'll generally explain it as a sort of know your enemy deal, like you know, you've gotta I want to understand Marxists, and then he'll say something like Marxism is resurgent in a haunted voice, which he said to a journalist from the New York Times, I think

it was. He says it a lot. Yeah, Marxist. Yeah, imagine kermit. Uh if you if you took the brain of Joe McCarthy and shoved it into Kermit the frog. That's more or less Dr Jordan B. Peterson. So back in the late nineteen teens and twenties, there were a lot of people who had the same concerns about Marxism all across Western Europe. And this was a somewhat more reasonable fear then, because Marxism was certainly resurgeon or at least surging in that period. Um and Fascists in particular

were terribly paranoid about it. Were the only ones. Obviously a lot of reasons to be concerned about the Soviet state, but there was some, shall we say, unreasonable paranoia about everything from the left, from folks who were, you know, proto Nazis. Now a term began to percolate among these people called in the term was Judeo Bolshevism, and this was kind of the word for a conspiracy that Communism

was being spread around the world by Jewish people. They were often compared to like a virus for communism that introduces it into the blood stream of a healthy society. Um and that was kind of the strain of thought that led to the Holocaust. At least one of them. You know, a lot of stuff like the Holocaust. Yeah, but that was a big part of it. Um. Now, it is true that a number of like the first Bolsheviks were Jewish, the guys who carried out, you know,

the big nineteen seventeen revolution in Russia. Um, but there were also a lot of people who are not at all Jewish who are involved in making the Soviet Union

be a thing, including Joseph Stalin. And also if you actually look at the particularly the early history of the Soviet Union, not a great place to be Jewish, Like some real bad things happened to Jewish folks then so um, of course Czaris Russia also a terrible place to be Jewish, I would say that, yeah, anyway, I mean historically many many,

many places. Yeah, basically everywhere actually, Like but if you want to like people sometimes overstate how bad the USSR was for Jewish people, to make it look like it was like a specific thing with communism, whereas like the reality is is under the czar and like the late eighteen hundreds you had the Chelnitski massacre, who was the largest massacre of Jewish people probably in history until the Holocaust. Anyway,

fun the czar. So yeah, this conspiracy basically claimed that all Jewish people everywhere were engaged in a covert plan to destroy Christianity and Western civilization by bringing communism, and like communism is an atheistic thing, like there's no not supposed to be any religion under especially like the kind of communism was being pushed in this period, and so the idea was, like, this is the Jews trying to kill Christianity communist. Yeah, I loved everybody loves saying that

the Jews are trying to destroy Christianity. Yea. As a rule, if you're saying the Jews and anything follows after that, maybe yeah, yeah, maybe that's probably not yeah yeah. As the Nazi movement picked up steam, Nazi writers and media critics gained popularity in German culture, and they really like

they were kind of enraged by this. You know. Weimar Germany, as we've talked about, was a super progressive place, a lot of like like unprecedented gains for LGBT people, um, kind of some of the first recognition of folks who were like non binary, and also just like a crazy amount of art and of course a decent amount of that art was pornographic because like people, people be having fun. Uh, I mean, do you mean you mean degenerate Robert you

mean art? Yeah, that's what these Nazi critics would have said. And and they went further. They claimed that like all of this art, a lot of which was you know, queer in orientation, was somehow tied to communism and it was part of a plot to weaken German culture to allow a left wing takeover. If this seems familiar, it's because you can hear the exact same thing if you

turn on like a third of YouTube. Oh yeah, So the term cultural Bolshevism overtook judaeo Bolshevism in this period, and it was kind of like the more educated, less bigoted persons like cultural Bolshevism. They're trying to they're trying to Bolshevize our nation by going through the arts and stuff and like taking over kids minds with their evil books and their dirty pictures and stuff like that. Just because sorry, it's just like it's just art. Like what

do you like? What do you think art is? It's like I don't know, whatever, It's fine. I mean I know that when I saw Guernica, I suddenly was like, oh, health care, everyone should have that. I mean, other things went through my mind when I yeah. So the rest

is kind of unfortunately history. The Nazis were able to convince enough people that this was happening, that cultural Bolshevist was a thing, uh, and they won open elections, and then they destroyed democracy and then you know, Holocaust and such. Not a not a good story, but a well known one at this point. So keep all of that in mind as we start our tale of Dr Jordan Balthazar Peterson.

And I must be honest with you, we both enjoy calling him Jordan Balthasar Peterson, but that's not his middle name. His middle name is Burnt. It's Bumblebee. Oh sorry, Burnt b E r in t, which is not a name I think I've seen before. He was born on June twelfth, nineteen sixty two, in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada's Texas Uh. He grew up in a small town called Fairview, which was about five hours out from the city. His dad was a teacher in a vice principle. His mother, Beverley, was

a librarian at a nearby college. Jordan was the oldest of three kids, and if he can be believed he started reading at age three. Um, and he was like a big, big book nerd, which I do believe. He's very clearly has spent a lot of time reading books and not so much time interacting with human beings. Uh. Yeah, I know. He's he's a he's a reader. He's a reader.

That one So one of his earliest memories was watching the enormous state funeral for Bobby Kennedy, and he recalls that he thought, I'll have a funeral like that one day. Oh my goodness, I that is I mean, everything I know about him and what he said as a young man that I didn't catch that that Oh yeah, that's That's a great reaction to have to the death of someone else in the trauma of a neighboring country. It's like, one of these days, I'm gonna be dead like that. People.

People will think that's cool. I'm that cool like Kennedy. That's pretty Uh, that's pretty telling. Wouldn't it be wild if Jordan B. Peterson got into politics and was then also assassinated by Sir Hans sir Han in California that

one day is still alive. Maybe, So Jordan B. Peterson was raised Protestant, and as a young child he was sent to confirmation class, which is a weird ritual that some Christians who I did it when I was a kid and Christian, where you like study the Bible with an overly enthusiastic youth group leader who tells you that Gandhi is probably in Hell, and then you pass a test and you get baptized by the priest in a

big ceremony thing. Uh. And like most young people who have such an experience and our our readers, Jordan was left with questions. He pressed his teacher about the literal truth of biblical creation stories. Now I'm not sure exactly what argument this guy made in response. I haven't found it written down anywhere, but Peterson found it unconvincing, and he suspected the teacher didn't really believe the argument himself. And I'm gonna quote now from a write up in

The New Yorker. In Maps of Meaning, which is his first book, we'll talk about it later, he remembered his reaction religion was for the ignorant, weak, and superstitious. He wrote, I stopped attending church and joined the modern world. He turned first to socialism and then to political science, seeking an explanation for the general social and political insanity and

evil of the world, in each time finding himself unsatisfied. Now, a lot of smart pretty much any intelligent person and most people, Yeah, pretty much any person is going to like at some point be like, oh boy, ship's fucked up, and you gotta like you gotta like try to puzzle that out for yourself. Way you figure out, like, yeah, um, there's something about like I'm going to solve the mysteries of the universe. Yeah, is a bit uh more intense

with Mr Peterson, Yeah, he has to. He's he's a very intense person and the way that he frames things is always intense. That will become very obvious as we

go along. So he says that he was a socialist, and yeah, maybe like his time as a socialist was like, so he had this librarian when he was in school who was the mother of the seventeenth Premier of Alberta, Rachel not Ley um and not Lee was a member of the New Democratic Party, and Peterson did spend his teenage years volunteering for the NDP, which is like a social democratic party. Um, so a socialist in that sense, like he was not like a radical communist or anything.

He was like kind of like a probably Bernie Sanders ish saying stuff and like yeah, well, um now he was during this period of voracious leader, spurred on it first by the work of George Orwell, but he eventually moved on to Alexander uh Sola Nitzen. Um, I'm always pronounced it wrong. I'm sure an iron rand, which I always pronounced right. And according to a profile in Toronto Life quote, while he admired leaders like Ed Broadbent, who was an m DP leader, he became disillusioned by the

party's peevish functionaries. He found Orwell's The Road to Wigan Pierre, which he read as an undergrad at Grand Prairie Enlightening. Or Well did a political psychological analysis of the motivations of the intellectual, tweed wearing middle class socialist and concluded that people like that didn't like the poor, They just hated the rich. I thought, ah ha, that's it. It's resentment. Anyone who set out to change the world by first

changing other people was suspicious. Ah is that why we'd like to change the world and make it better for everybody? Because we're resented? Full is that why. Yeah. I mean there's a number of things going on there. One of them is understandable, which is that like he got involved with a an actual, like established political party and it was full of assholes, which every political party is, because political parties are disillusioned with any of that stuff by yourself.

And I think he's probably right that a lot of these kind of like intellectual, professional left wing politicos didn't like the poor and didn't spend any time around them. They just hated rich people, and like, yeah, that of course, yes, like um obviously, um. Where he gets wrong is like number one, the idea that socialism is changing the world by first changing other people. I think there's some assholes who say that, but I think most of us would say, like, no, no, no,

people are fine. It's these systems that are incredibly corrupt and fucked up and unjust that need to be changed. And then like people can actually live their lives and and be decent um without these horrible systems crushing them. That's how I would go. It's like the yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's always fascinating to me when reactionaries like Peterson Professor love for orwell because they inevitably misinterpret him. And

I just like they don't know what Orwell was saying. Um, which is odd because Orwell is a pretty clear writer. But it happens a lot with him. Um. Orwell was not critiquing socialism itself as much as he was criticizing the kind of intellectual lefty academic politico types who spent all their time arguing over theory and never actually do anything. Or was a committed socialist his entire life, and he

was profoundly working class. You read any of his work, like, not just his like like ship like um, he talks about stuff like that a lot in um uh homage to Catalonia, but like also like a lot of his essays and book reviews, like he wrote a bunch of reviews of Charles Dickens that are fascinating even if you don't like Dickens. There's a good collection of essays called them all art is Propaganda. Um. And it's just very obvious that he cared deeply and profoundly and understood like

working class poor people. Um. Just this this the idea that Yeah, I don't know, it's frustrating how people think about or Well sometimes or Well, the guy who during the nineteen twenties said well, if everyone kills one fascist, soon this problem will be over, and then traveled to Spain to kill fascists to do that, to exactly that. Yeah, yeah,

and then got shot in the throat after killing some fascists. Anyway, I like Orwell, um, not a perfect guy, but really good to read and then misinterpret and then uses an argument for things that are well didn't believe exactly. Yeah, that's the game. That's the that's the game with Georgie. Never write anything, just don't write anything down. Yeah, don't write things, don't talk to people, live in a hut with a rifle and a large dog, and shoot anyone

who approaches you. Stare at your door for the rest of your life. That's the culture I want. Um. So Jordan's early life occurred during kind of the high point of Cold War mania. You know, he was born in like sixty two obviously, so he's like living through the worst parts of the Cold War. And I think a lot of people who are like our age may not know this. Like, the eighties had some pretty fucking hardcore

Cold War paranoia. Like that's why Red Dawn was the movie that it was Um, yeah, so Jordan's earliest memories would have included footage from Vietnam and like constant anxiety over nuclear apocalypse. Um, he's not all that much younger than my dad, And like my dad grew up I know, with a lot of he's talked about it, like a lot of like really realistic fear as a child. But the world was going to suddenly end in nuclear hell fire. Um, And like I talked about this a lot, but it

really messed the whole generation up pretty bad. Um in an understandable way. So the threat of total war only seemed to grow more real as Jordan grew older. He was plagued by nightmares of nuclear hell fire for a year and a half. He says, like, just yea horrible night dreams. He's gotta gott a dream problem, which again you can't at this point perfectly reasonable, Like if you grew up hearing that should, of course and have nightmares

about nuclear health fire. Like obviously, sometimes if you're there's existential threat constantly, then you're going to have it on your mind pretty constantly. Yeah, it's a kind of PTSD to be honest. Um. In Toronto Life cryptically writes the Jordan quote became depressed and confused about the world's and his own capacity for evil, which is interesting. That's interesting. Uh So I wanted to pop in here, so just

for more context as we can keep going. Um. And his comment about that funeral and how he's going to have that funeral one day. Um. When he was I believe fourteen years old. Um, he ran he was like into politics and he ran um for uh like election. Um. And I didn't run across this one. This is why you're the guest. Uh. Aged fourteen, he became within thirteen votes of being elected vice president of the n DP,

their sort of organization there. Um. And the quote for the piece is I won't be happy until an elected prime minister. Oh good, okay, well there you go. Fine things to say when you're fourteen years old. I mean, nothing to worry about there. I grew up not all that differently from Jordan Peterson in a different era, but like super bookish, super nerdy. Um. I guess I was kind of raised conservative and he like trumped into it.

But like I had those same like dreams of getting into politics and they're the dreams of an unhealthy young person. And as I got older, I realized that it was much better to just do tons of drugs and hang out on mountains with my friends. Uh, and that that's a way healthier thing than getting just like the pressure of like I won't be happy until I'm so powerful. Yeah, the idea that like there, I can't be happy unless I'm the prime minister. I have to be the top

boy in the country otherwise. Yeah, it's pretty much. And like any anyone that like seeks like I want to be the president that kind of thing later on in life, like that's you gotta be a certain kind of fund up to think that you have the ability and like that you should be that that. Yeah, it's a reasonable thing as a kid to be like I'm going to

be the president one day. And then as you grow older and understand what that means, I think reasonable people come to the conclusion of, like, no, no, no, we need to you know, Bernie Sanders, it's a man. Um you know, you all know the joke at home. I'm not gonna say we all know what he did. We all know what he did, so um. Yeah. As he grew into a young man, Peterson also grew into a young man that is to say he developed an appreciation for Carl Young. That was good, right right? Yeah, Uh,

it's really a laugh a minute this week. Yeah. So Young is uh the inventor of the term collective unconsciousness, or at least the concept basically. I think he sometimes called it. I don't know, I'm not a great young expert. Suck it. Uh. So Peterson also started but he like Young, he has Okay, so Young, there's a couple of big

things abou him. One of them is this idea that there's this sort of collective kind of like a racial memory um which yes, does feed into some of the things the Nazis we're talking about, and so did Young.

We'll talk about that in a bit. And also these ideas that there's like these archetypes in human civilization, like this like inherent power of myth that humans are bound by, and there's like something almost kind of supernaturally powerful about certain like mythal archetypes, the hero and all this kind of stuff. Like Young talks about some ship like that. He's a complicated guy. Um So Peterson big fan of Young. He also starts devouring Nietzsche uh and a Romanian scholar

named Mercea Eliad she's a scholar of religion. Um. And he also starts to devouring the work of an American professor called Joseph Campbell, whose popular book on the hero myth and society had a profound cultural impact and one that's not dis similar to Peterson's own work. So his like Hero with the Thousand Faces, I think is the book, um, kind of winds up inspiring every single Disney movie that's

ever been made in your lifetime. U. Yeah, because like it's Star Wars beat for beat, it's Star Wars beat for Beat, It's it's Dan Dan Harmon's story circle. And it's like there's a lot of there's obviously a lot that Campbell got right, because he's correct about things that resonate with people. There's a reason that all these very successful stories. Yeah, and the archives are common. I think the real thing that resonates with people is like just the arc of that basic story. You one of the

things are a different thing. You try to get the thing you wanting you actually need, and you sacrifice a thing, you change and so on and so forth. Um. Yeah, yeah, and and and Joseph Campbell, it's an important work of scholarship. Campbell is also problematic as funk, which we'll talk about in a little bit. So these are like the people who Peterson starts to devour and like they start to influence his mind. Like this is like what creates the

mentality the mind that Jordan Peterson has as an adult. Now, when we talk about the writers and philosophers who started to form like the core of his growing ideological development, we would be remiss if we didn't discuss at some length what kind of things those writers wound up supporting and believing themselves, because I don't think a lot of

people know this. Yeah. Now, thankfully a writer named Pankaj Mishra did that for us in a two thousand eighteen article for The New York Review of Books titled Jordan

Peterson and Fascist Mysticism. Now, Pankaj makes a note of some of the things we've talked about in other episodes of this show, how the rise of fascism in Europe happened alongside the rise of esoteric spiritual movements like theosophy and anthroposophy, which we did an episode of, and like a weird fascination with Asian mysticism, which is kind of like why the Nazis sent expeditions out to the Himalayas and stuff which a lot of people don't know about that.

You can read about that on an air bay on your own time, or maybe we'll do an episode about it. It's wacky shit. Um I'm gonna quote from that Pankaj Mishra article quote a range of intellectual entrepreneurs, from theosophists and venders of Asian spirituality like Vivi Kannada and DZ Suzuki too, scholars of Asia like Arthur Whaley, and fascist idealogues like Julius A. Vola, who is Steve Bannon's favorite philosopher,

set up stalls in the new marketplace of ideas. W. B. Yates Um adjusting Indian plosophy to the needs of the Celtic revival pontificated on the ancient self. Young spun his own variations on this evidently ancestral unconscious. Such conceptually foggy categories as spirit and intuition acquired broad currency. Peterson's favorite words being in chaos, started to appear in capital letters, which he also is how he also tends to refer ums like yeah, these these writers in these intellectual strains

are both huge parts of everything Peterson writes today. And there were also big parts of kind of the intellectual stew that starts cooking in Europe really in like it starts before World War One, but it really gets going in the twenties. Um. And these have a big impact on the development of fascism. Now some of them is coincidental. Fascism is happening at the same time, so of course like this is in the fucking air, and people pick

some of it up. A decent number of these philosophers and academics were not fascists, but their work influenced Hitlerist ideas of like racial community, which is not all that different from kind of Young's concept of of collective unconscious.

There's similarities at least an aryan mystic beliefs um quote by the early twentieth century, ethnic racial chauvinists everywhere, Hindu supremacists in India as well as we talked about that in our our episode on I Forget the Hindu fascist Lady um as well as Catholic ultra yeah, as well as Catholic ultra nationalists in France. We're offering visions who uprooted people of a rooted, organic society in which hierarchies

and values had been stable. As Carla Poe points out in New Religions and the Nazis two thousand five, political cultists would typically mix pieces of yoga and Abrahamic religions with popular notions of science, or rather pseudoscience, such as concepts of race, eugenics, or evolution. It was this opportunistic amalgam of ideas that helped nourish new mythologies of would

be totalitarian regimes. And obviously, like Darwinism plays a lot of in this which so clearly again I'm yeah, and when I'm taking sorry, like taking like these sort of spiritual ideas and combining them with like biological things. And just like Peter Peterson does this a lot of just like he he reads, he reads everything, yeah, and he has a habit of taking everything he reads and putting it all together, which is you know, syncretism is um as another kind of hallmark that echoes set of fascism

um and it is one of those things. All these thinkers, all of these ideological strains are not inherently fascists, just as Darwinism, like most people today, except Darwinian evolution is basically true and are not fascists, right, but like it had a huge impact on Hitler, and you do have to, like I think it intelligent people can understand both of

those things. Um yeah, that like things where it's like just like like the like Darwinism where it's like this is a thing that is it's uh, it's not a thing that we need to like force or do or like ascribe to or like yeah, it just happy around.

It just happens. Uh. He has a bad habit of like prescriptive versus like normative claims and like, well there, this is this, we should have to do this, yes, Jordan, Yeah yeah, and we'll will be will be most of these both of these episodes will be about his ideas, right, and like what the things he believes and says, Um now I just got over saying because I want to be very clear here, like if you like some of these thinkers, if you're if you've been inspired by them,

I'm not saying you're a fascist or their fascist. That said. A lot of the writers Peterson specifically loves, got real fashi during this period. Mercia Elliott, who's that Romanian scholar herself, She fasci as fuck. Mercia Elliott, who's that Romanian scholar allied herself with the Romanian Iron Guard who were Romanian Nazis, right, like, these are the people who like their Nazis. Carl Young wrote about the Aryan soul and unfortunately the Jewish psyche um,

and he was initially was initially very sympathy. Yeah, neither of those are good. And he was initially sympathetic to the Nazi Party. Now he changed his mind, and he did change his mind pretty early on, but he was very sympathy, like he got drawn along for a little while there. Yeah that makes sense. I mean you can, like there are lots of quotes of Peterson talking about Trump where it's like, uh, you know, you know what it is, but you're yeah, yeah, yeah, well yeah yeah.

Joseph Campbell obviously came around later, and he never he was not an open supporter of like a Nazi movement. But once his book The Hero with a Thousand Faces became a hit and he was being interviewed by every TV station and whatnot in contemporary America. Like again, he had a very Jordan Peterson like ark to his career, and once he gained prominence, he would regularly drop lines like Marxist philosophy has overtaken the university in America. I did not enjoy that at all. Y I'm doing I'm

actually kind of doing a Ben Shapiro voice there. Yeah, I didn't, Like, I can't say Marxist without thinking of been Yeah, Maists everywhere around me. Now, it's unfair that I do that for Ben, because, um, Joseph Campbell was

profoundly anti Semitic. I just wanted he hated black people, just super racist, super anti semitic, like Campbell and Campbell kind of kept a little on that a bit, but like, oh, when you like, he was a guy who hated Marxism and also hated Jewish people, and you do get the feeling that, like he kind of agreed with that Nazi idea that Jewish people spread Marxism, right right. I mean, if you have both of those and one has kind of kept secret, chances are that they're very related and

fuel each other. Yeah, he's he was. He was super racist as fuck. Um, And yeah, obviously Campbell's racism doesn't mean there's nothing we can learn from him, because you kind of have to, especially if you if you're interested in storytelling, you kind of have to read the here with a thousand faces, even if you disagree with it, because there's a lot of people who do and say that like, no, he gets a lot of like, but you still it's just it's that important of a work.

So I'm not saying, let's exercise these guys from our intellectual history. But like Campbell was basically a Nazi, right yeah, but like if you, if you, if you read his work and then write Star Wars, you're not a yes, yes, George Lucas, In fact, I would go so fast to say doesn't like nazis pretty anti Nazi guy. It's stars despite his his magic blood religion that he put in

his movies. But he's got some problematic aspects. But I think it's pretty clear even in the Prequels that George Lucas is saying, Hey, you know what's bad as fascism? Oh yeah, it's the one. It's the problem with the prequels is it's a great idea that it's bad. Yeah, he just needed an editor. Um. Speaking of speaking of editors, I don't know, speaking of editors, I don't know. You know, Cody, let's talk about something else for just a second. How do you feel about school buses full of kids. I

hope they get to school and home from school. Oh see, I thought you were going to say you hope that they get hit by hellfire missiles from the sky. And I was going to tell you that Raytheon, our sponsor, makes the missile guidance chips that that make the targeting of school buses possible. Oh so where can school buses now? Yeah? Kind of wanna. I would love to help or get

like a promo code for for for these chips. Well yeah, if you actually type in promo code Yemen, you can get a discount on your next missile guidance systems thanks to our sponsors, Raytheon. Okay, so I will be able to afford this with the promo code. Oh absolutely. Raytheon's goal is making it possible for regular people like you and me to fire missiles at school buses and parts of the world that we barely understand. This has gone on far too long. Let's hear from Raytheon now. So

so you sold me, We're back? Okay, So yeah, Campbell's racism doesn't mean we shouldn't learn stuff from him. Just like the fact that young dabbled in Nazism doesn't mean

that he's not worth studying as an intellectual. Carl Young had said a lot of stuff that's really interesting, and I know a lot of people are fans of him, so I'm not again like anyway, The point is that an awful lot of the guys who find themselves writing at length about stuff like ancestral memories and archetypes also wound up having Nazi adjacent beliefs, Like a lot of the people who started codifying those lines of thought in human philosophy also wound up being really drawn to the Nazis.

And that's something we should keep in mind when other people have similar few drawn in similar directions. And these are the folks that Jordan Peterson found himself pulled towards as a young man, and that's worth noting now. Young adult, Jordan Peterson gravitated to clinical psychology. He went to or psychology whatever. He went to McGill University for his undergraduate

and his graduate terms. He eventually became a doctor um and during his time in college he came to grapple with his romantic feelings for a childhood friend, Tammy Roberts. Jordan and Tammy grew up on the same street. They went to prom together. He invited her to Montreal for Canadian Thanksgiving one year while he was in college, and the two hit it off romantically. They moved in together, and like whatever else you can say of the guy, it seems like he's like deeply devoted to his wife

and she to him. Um, it's unfortunately some of the things that they're devoted to together, but I guess that's good for him. He he fell in love. Um So Peterson proposed to her repeatedly before the two married in nineteen eighty nine. Tammy later recalled, I thought, if I don't marry Jordan's I'm not going to know what he does with his life, and he's going to be an interesting person. Um. She was not incorrect in that he

is an interesting guy, very interesting person. I wouldn't marry him to know what happens to him personally, But you would not marry Dr Jordan B. Peterson. Well, Cody, then you might be too biased to participate in this episode any longer. So if you get Tammy on the line, yeah yeah, yeah, so uh next in Jordan Peterson's life. According to the magazine Toronto Life quote, their first child, Michaela,

was born in nineteen ninety two. The family moved to Boston, where Peterson took a job at Harvard then had then Tammy had Julian. Peterson taught psych at Harvard for six years. When Michaela was seven, she was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis and started showing signs of depression. Tammy, who had become an artist and massage therapist, put her career on hold to care for her daughter. In Peterson was offered a tenure track position at the University of Toronto and the

family returned to Canada. At u f T he was a swashbuckling, beloved professor. Students regarded him as a kind of guru for people just figuring out who they were and what they wanted to be. He offered a seductive bulwark of certainty. There are perhaps one or two professors you'll run into during her your career who completely capture and captivate you, says Christine Brothie, one of Peterson's current

grad students, and he was one of them. Now, that Toronto Life article is really interesting and I think quite good, but it's summary of Peterson's early career path is only broadly accurate. It does leave some things out and we're fortunate that. In two thousand eighteen, University of Toronto professor Bernard Schiff wrote an op ed for The Star. Its title is I was Jordan Peterson's strongest supporter. Now I

think he's dangerous. We'll be referring to this article the number of times yeah, yeah, important articles, Yeah, very felt stating yeah in fascinating and in his article Bernard gives us an inside look at how Jordan came to teach at the University of Toronto. Quote. I met Jordan Peterson when he came to the University of Toronto to be interviewed for an assistant professorship in the Department of Psychology.

His CV was impeccable, with terrific references in a pedigree that included a PhD from McGill and a five year stint at Harvard As an assistant professor. We did not share research interests, but it was clear that his work was solid. My colleagues on the search committee were skeptical. They felt he was too eccentric, but somehow I prevailed. Several committee members now remind me that they agreed to hire him because they were tired of hearing me shout

over them. I pushed for him because he was a divergent thinker, self educated in the humanities, intellectually, flamboyant, bold, energetic, and confident, bordering on arrogant. I thought he would bring a new excitement, along with new ideas to our department. Professor Schiff, who was then nearing retirement, took Jordan under his wing for the last three years of his career as a full time professor. Now Shift grew too deeply like Peterson, and he pushed for him to receive regular

promotion and raises. When Peterson renovated his house, Shift put Jordan and his family up in his own home. Quote. We had meals together in the evening and long colorful conversations there. Away from campus, I saw a man who was devoted to his wife and his children, who were lovely and gentle and for whom I still feel affection. He was attentive and thoughtful, stern and kind, playful and warm. His wife, Tammy, appeared to be the keel, the ballast,

and the rudder, and Jordan ran the ship. Now it's really clear from this article that Professor Shift deeply enjoyed Peterson's company and respected him tremendously as a man an a professor, and unfortunately, Shift feels this now blinded him to some of the less savory aspects of Peterson's personality which had started to emerge in this period. Shift laments that he did not give sufficient concern to some of Jordan's teaching tactics. Quote as the undergraduate chair, I read

all teaching reviews. His work, for the most part excellent and included eyebrow raising comments such as this course has changed my life. One student, however, hated the course because he did not like delivered truths. Curious, I attended me of Jordan's lectures to see for myself. Remarkably, the fifty students always showed up at nine am and were held

in rapt attention for an hour. Jordan was a captivating lecturer, electric and eclectic, cherry picking from neuroscience, mythology, psychology, philosophy, the Bible, and popular culture. The class loved him, but as reported by that astute student, Jordan presented conjecture as statement of fact. I expressed my concern to him about this a number of times, and each time Jordan agreed. He acknowledged the danger of such practices, but then continued to do it again and again, as if he could

not control himself. He was a preacher more than a teacher. Mm hmmmm mm hmmm mm hmm. Yeah, I mean he's like that's uh dead on. Um. When you watch one of his lectures, it does seem like that, Like yeah, like I said it earlier, it's less speeches, less lectures, it's more sermons. Um. Yep, he does uh and yeah, choosing the everything. He looks at everything, and he just like sort of picks what fits what he wants to say is true and then puts them all together and

and pushes that idea. Um. It's like really easily to still down to the lobster example. I think, um, where he's like, oh, yeah, the world should be like this because of over here. Um. But does it a lot with like yeah, taking like this religious thing and then this this biological thing and then this thing from pop culture and then just tells you the way things are, the way things are yep, and should be it should be.

It's you know, one of the things I think that happens with Peterson, And I think it's I I see it in myself and have to fight against it regularly. If you grow up believing one thing and then make a complete or one eighty degree turn to something else as a young adult, there's a tendency that you have to fight against to believe. Well, maybe I don't have to question the things I believe now because I already questioned, Like I already overturned my entire belief system so clearly,

like I found truth. And that can lead you to cherry pick things that only confirm the things that you've come to believe, when when the reality is and no one's perfect at this right, Like, and we all choose to not examine certain things just because you can't always be examining every aspect of your beliefs because otherwise you

go fucking crazy. Sometimes you just would be like, yeah, you know, it's fine, Like, but you should always be finding yourselves yourself challenged by things, which is is different from saying everybody needs to be debating about things, because some things should be debated, um, but you should always be like seeking out things that like challenge or complicate your understanding of the world, um, because the world's complicated. Um. Anyway,

So whether or not Preacher is a fair description. Jordan grew obsessed with belief, in particularly why people believe things, and most particularly like why people who had supported terrible regimes, fascist and communist, totalitary and regimes that killed a lot of people, why they believed so strongly in the things that they were doing. Um, which is obviously, like I think, is a great thing to to to investigate. That's my

whole life, to draw people to authoritarian exactly. Uh. In nineteen nine he published his first book, Maps of Meaning, a dense, six page academic treatise on the architecture of belief, which is a great term. Um, he's a decent titler,

and yeah. Maps of Meaning shows a Cambellian fascination with the hero myth and the things that cultures tend to find heroic, as well as a great deal of younging and interest in like a kind of sort of collective racial un consciousness and the reoccurring influence of myth and tradition in human society. The book also evinced an obsession with the ideas of order and chaos. I'm going to read a quote from it here. Terrible chaotic forces lurk behind the facade of the normal world. These forces are

kept at bay by the maintenance of social order. The reign of order is insufficient, however, because order itself becomes overbearing in deadly if allowed unregulated or permanent expression. The actions of the hero constitute an antidote to the deadly forces of chaos and to the tyranny of order. The hero creates order from chaos and reconstructs the order when necessary that order, when necessary. His actions simultaneously ensure that

novelty remains tolerable and that security remains flexible. Maps of Meaning Jordan B. Peterson. So Maps of Meaning includes some fascinating insight into Jordan's own life and I'm gonna I'm gonna quote from a write up in The New Yorker. Here, Peterson has a way of making even the mildest pronouncement sound like the dying declaration of a political prisoner. In Maps of Meaning, he traces this sense of urgency to

a feeling of fraudulence that overcame him in college. When he started to speak, he would hear a voice telling him, you don't believe that. That isn't true. To word off mental breakdown, he resolved not to say anything unless he was sure he believed it this practice calmed the inner voice, and in time it shaped his rhetorical style, which is forceful but careful. Yeah. I mean that's you can see him. He's a he's very verbose, but he is a very

deliberate speaker. Yeah he is. He's a great speaker, like just objectively, like I'm like you and I are both people who talk for a living. Like, he's objectively good at public speaking, captivating. Yeah, absolutely make a great preacher. Yeah, he would make a great preacher. Let's talk about that later. So the book was well received by a number of

professional smart people. One reviewer I read, who was a psychologist, if I think some sort had a hard time defining Peterson's books a work of like sociology or psychology or like neuroscience or whatever. But he recommended it to people, and this was not a universal opinion. So I want to note a lot of professional people in and around Peterson's field think this is a great book. There's also

a sizeable number who disagree with that statement. Dr Paul Taggart, a Canadian philosopher and cognitive scientist, wrote this about the book in Psychology Today, its emphasis on religious myth and heroic individuals provides a poor blueprint for understanding the origins of totalitarianism and an even poorer guide to overcoming its evils.

Um and Dr Taggart described Maps of Meaning as murky and the sense that it was dark and gloomy, with frequent emphasis on suffering rather than on the joys of love, work, and play. The book is also murky in the second sense, which is like the sense of yeah, it's less meandering and disjointed than its video than his videotape lectures. So yeahah, it's a little money kind of like, it's a little hard to parse, it's hard to parson follow. People will like it's very dense, it takes a lot of reading.

Some people say that because it's so brilliant, and some people will be like, he could have cut a couple of hundred pages out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now. Dr Taggart condensed the book's main arguments into four points. Um and these are what he thinks that Peterson is getting out in the book, and he's smarter than I am. Uh. Number one myths are culturally universal. Number two myths are

the psychological origin of morality. Number three myths are the philosophical basis for morality and number four, myth based morality grounds political judgments about salitarian states. UM. So you can see some things to argue with there and some things like I would certainly agree that myth based morality grounds political judgments about totalitarian states. UM. I would also say that like, I don't think myths are the psychological origin

of morality or the philosophical basis for morality. I think they do influence a lot of people's morality. I would also disagree with the statement that their culturally universal, which Dr Taggart will disagree with two. But we'll talk about that in a bit later. Okay, Yeah, there's a lot of because like it's just very like it's forceful and certain.

There's no yes, Like a lot of things that Jordan's yea even are just like well okay that that kind of relates to this, but it's not like a universal rule.

It's not the way the world is. Yeah, He's often seems like he's trying to create a religion or like create like a worldview it explains everything, and he's basing it on these myths, and he's basing it on a specific subset of myths from a specific chunk of the world that happens to be the chunk of the world he's familiar with, ignoring all of the different myths and cultures that actually disagree with a lot of what he's saying,

and then just saying no, every culture basically believes this stuff. Yeah culture, even though he doesn't. Yeah. Now, it's perhaps not surprising that, according to Professor Schiff, who's again the guy his meant, his old mentor who came to worry you know, very much about his influence. It's it's perhaps not surprising that this guy, says, Peterson's personality grew more intense as the years grew by darker and angrier. Now.

Peterson's student reviews were always exceptional, and he earned a position on the u f t's tenure track, but he also showed peculiar signs of non academic ambitions. Jordan's started a clinical practice, which is fine, but his experiences there inspired him to create a series of neuropsychological tests, basically personality tests to predict academic and corporate performance. This led him to create a product called the Self Authoring Suite, an online self help program that he sold access to.

Toronto Life notes that the program was quote designed to walk participants through creating a sort of many autobiography than writing what they want their futures to be. Like Tammy, his wife served as a guinea pig. I outlined eight goals that I had no idea I was going to outline, she says. But it puts you in a dream state, and when you write your goals they come from somewhere inside you that you hadn't scripted. I told him this

would be the most important thing he ever did. That's a little weird, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, well again, it's the mysticism, it's the spirituality. It's like the the deeper stuff than seems. Yeah, it can't be as simple as like yeah, no, you know, outlining your goals and talking, you know, outlining some aspects of your past and thinking about what you want your future to be can be helpful if you're kind of in like a confused or

a modeled state. No, no, you're in a dream state and something inside you comes up like okay, yeah, it's like yeah, you talked to the universe. It's like, well, no, you just like you assess your life and you try to get like we all do it right, Like I do it When I'm running like a couple of times a week. I don't go into a dream state, like it is helpful to like cut out distractions and like.

But anyway, whatever. Peterson says that about ten thousand students have gone through this program, that it decreased dropout rates by and raised g p as by. I've seen no verification of these numbers outside of Jordan's b Peterson himself. Uh and as far as I'm aware, he never put his self authoring sweet up to any kind of rigorous outside testing. I will say that an awful lot of

people who have used it rave about it. You can find tons of very positive reviews, and in fact it's hard to find negative ones, probably because the kind of people who buy it are people who are already into what Jordan be Peterson has to say. But that's said,

a lot of people say it's great. Um. One customer wrote that in her view, the program allowed you to identify the different personalities within yourself that often conflicted and to integrate them into a new and better person, which I do found a little worrying because a lot of scientology and also if you watch the new show about Nexium, the Keith rawneeri cult, who we also did episodes on

and talk a lot about integrations. Anyway, I always find that a little weird, but it was it Also, it only costs like fifteen bucks, so I would not want to be like saying that he was doing same thing scientology was doing because it seems like a pretty affordable thing. Yeah, but that does that always strikes me a little weird. Um And I found another review on a site called the Deep Dish that explains the attitude uh Joson's fifteen

dollar course conveys. And this is by someone who took it. Quote, when the oxygen mask drops down on an airplane, you better fasten yours before you try to be a hero, because people who have passed out from hypoxia are not known for being particularly useful. We've all heard the safety breathing so many times that it bores us to tears, but we don't always apply this principle to life. More broadly, if you want to do good in the world, you

have to put your own house in order first. In his clinical practice, Peterson has observed that many people don't actually have psychological problems, they have problems in living. That's a meaningless statement, like a completely meaningless statement. But I do want to get into what this guy says about like oxygen masks, because obviously, yes, if if if your plane depressurizes, you should put on your own oxygen mask first because you will be unconscious and unable to help people.

But I think generalizing this because this is a big thing readers and says you have to fix yourself before you help other people, and I disagree with that profoundly, um and I think that a better comparison would be

to think like an e m T thing. So if you arrive on the seamen as an emergency in the as an e MT, and they'll tell you this in training, your first priority is your own safety, not because you matter more than anyone else because but because if you get hurt, then all you've done is make the problem worse.

And what that means it doesn't mean you don't help, but it does mean that, like, oh, there's a car crash that involved a power line, I need to make sure that I'm not going to like get electrocuted, Like I need to make sure this is actually safe for me to enter, Otherwise I'm making the situation worse. But my goal is still to get in there and help people. I just have to make certain that I am physically

say first that I'm not making the problem worse. But the whole thing I'm doing is attempting to actually provide aid to people. Right, Um, anyway, I think that's a more useful Yeah, it's his game, It's what I mean. This reductive is called his game. But like that's that analogy. He takes these situations and these analogies and these these little examples and then uh says that this is how all of society is. Um. And that's like really a

huge leap and pretty irresponsible. It's it's the lobster thing. Um. But also like I don't know if you if you're a person who's like, uh, what if everybody was able to go to the doctor, um having to pay like copas and premiums and all that bullshit. Um, that doesn't mean that the person suggesting that needs to live a perfect life and have all their problems fixed out that like this this example is uh so wrong and misleading. It's uh and and it things like that UH point

me more towards like, oh, well that's insidious. What he's doing is insidious, and it would be one thing if he was like, there's different kinds of emergencies. Some of them are like you know, when an airplane depressurizes and you have to take care of yourself first otherwise you'll be unconscious. Other others are like a fire in a house, and if you're a firefighter, you might have to endanger yourself in order to do your job, because that's sometimes

what we do. And like, yeah, it's but no, it's it's kind of a microcosm of the way he thinks, which is like find one like kind of one example that if you deliver it well in a speech, will sound really compelling to people because you're comparing it to something in the real world. Um, but like if you think about it for more than a couple of seconds, realized like, well, that actually can't be generalized anything. So you can't you can't like try to improve society unless

you're perfect, which is impossible. Like who who can claim that, yeah, that they that they are they have nothing left to work on with themselves or anything like that. It's like come on, man, Yeah. So in this course this self authoring, sweet Peterson explains that his time as a clinical psychologist has taught him to start client sessions by asking a series of questions about a patient's family, physical health, friends,

drug use, etcetera. If his clients are having issues in any of these key areas, they cannot be thriving psychologically. This is the origin of his famous clean your Room line. And obviously it's not bad advice to tell people to take care of themselves. You should take care of yourself, but Jordan, being Jordan's, he immediately takes things beyond simple self care. The self authoring suite represents the first salvo and what I think we could call Jordan Peterson's War

on Chaos quote. The way Peterson sees it, there's a constant struggle between chaos and order within society and within each individual. Even if you don't believe this literally, it's a useful metaphor. To make yourself strong and focused. You have to do battle with the dragons of chaos. Of course, dragons are big and scary, so you better start out small. Peterson talks a lot about fighting dragons, and he does actually will sometimes say like, no, I'm speaking pretty literally.

Oh yeah, his his some of his diagrams in that book are something too. Yeah. So the way Peterson frames things, though, is very seems very reasonable. If your life feels out of control, you focus fixed first on taking care of small, immediate needs and goals, and this build your confidence and it will help you you deal with larger and larger things and help you order your own minds that you can accomplish greater tasks. Nothing sinister in that. In fact,

I'd say it's good advice, um. But the focus on chaos and on life is a constant battle between ordering chaos. That seems kind of sinister to me, especially given what Jordan B. Peterson thinks about chaos, because in his mind, it is an inherently feminine trait see New York Times.

Writer Nellie Bowles talked to Jordan about this during a deep and very good profile she wrote on The Man, a very funny profile because I think Nelly has his number, And when she questioned him about chaos being a feminine trait, he responded, you know, you can say, well, isn't it unfortunate that chaos is represented by the feminine? Well, it might be unfortunate, but it doesn't matter because that's how it's represented. It's been represented like that forever, and there

are reasons for it. You can't change it. It's not possible. This is underneath everything, and if you change those basic categories, people wouldn't be human anymore. They'd be something else, they'd be trans human or something. We wouldn't be able to talk to these new creatures, to which I say, a lot of people used to worship volcanoes Jordans. We don't really do that so much anymore. Now. We're like, they're wrong, explosive, and we should get away when they like unbelievable, and

like also like look at society. How it's like, why do you think that women are categorized like that? In your mind? Who is who becoming? The Goddess of Discord was heiress and therefore chaos is always feminine? Yeah, right, Like, uh, like men are order and women are chaos. Women have a regular menstrual cycle, that's pretty funny, ordered, uh, whereas men were largely responsible for the partitioning of Poland, which

was pretty chaotic. Chaotic. There's just like so many examples, and like you can look and like this is Jordan's game that he won't let anybody else play. I can look at lobsters and say, lobsters do this because of the resources. Therefore, society has to be measured like that. I can point to women menstruating uh and be like, no, women are order, you fucking dumb ship, and he like, yeah, he can't. He can't uh fathom that because in his mind there's no nuance unless it's him. I don't know.

It's very frustrating. What a weird frustrating man. Do you want to know what's not frustrating Cody though, I yes, I would like to know that. Actually, is this fantastic transition to ads that Robert's about to do. Robert, yeah, oh wow. I'm sad I liked it. I did not. We're bad before we move on. I was just quoting from that Nellie Bowels um uh New York Times article, and I think it's really funny um because there's lines

in it like Marxism is resurgent. Mr Peterson says, looking ashen and stricken, I say, it seems unnecessarily stressful to live like this, He tells me. Life is stressful, like she she her interpretation seems to be like you are deeply miserable, and it's because of these horrible things you believe and you seem they don't seem to be making you happy. And Jordan B. Peterson is incapable of understanding or taking seriously what she's saying because she's a woman

and that's an agent of case beautiful. It's frustratingly beautiful. Um, yeah, you don't have to be this stressed out, Mr Peterson. This isn't it doesn't need to be your life. He can he considered one of his big issues is that he thinks that I'm the current guy in trage of Canada is basically like a quasi Marxist. It's like, actually, if you look at it, Canada is basically one gigantic mining and natural gas company with like a social safetiness strap to it so that people don't notice that it

exists primarily to extract resources from the world. Um, it's the furthest thing from marxis impossible. It just has a good health care system. But like, let's not Yeah, also like Peterson is not going to get it on that, Mr Mr Bumblebee, I I gotta I gotta point out also like his whole thing of like if you change this, if you change that, what is it is? It? Is? It?

Is it? Now? You're a trans human or what it's like, well, you're you're you're like you're what you're doing is you're fighting against the idea of evolution like like did like when when humans got to where we are, was that like, oh, you did it, You're perfect. Never change never, never move

on from this. And I don't think you would say that the realities if you were to take like anyone from five years ago and put them in the modern world, they would probably die of an embolism, shrieking in horror at the sight of concrete, like just because the amount of it would be so baffling to their fucking brains. It would like the world would make no sense, the

error would taste different. Yeah, they wouldn't be able to understand people speaking what is essentially their language because our idioms have changed so much, Like it would be a nightmare for them, because people are changed deeply every couple of generation. Culture changes constantly, and like like deal with describing is like fucking baby, yeah yeah, so yeah, uh

it's good stuff. Um. Now, when one reads a lot of Peterson's interviews, they get the sense that Jordan's spent the bulk of his career studying humanity for tips on how to reach and influence people. I don't know the degree to which this was a conscious choice that he made, but he did it. And in his second book, which will discuss later, Peterson writes that during his time as a psychologist, he worked with a client diagnosed with paranoia.

He learned that paranoid patients were quote almost uncanny in their ability to detect mixed motives, judgment, and falsehood. This inspired him to become even more committed to saying only what he meant. You have to listen very carefully and to tell the truth if you're going to get a paranoid person to open up to you. He quickly realized that this basic tactic worked on the broader population, which helps explain why so many of his students treated him

like a preacher. Over years and years of rigorously studying belief, he got good at making people believe what he said. Um Now, outside of work, in his own life, Jordan's home came to showcase a growing fascination with authoritarianism. He collected Soviet and Communist propaganda and he covered his walls with it to an extent that I think even the most dead a cadd communists I know would find weird. Like it's so weird. The amount there is so weird.

It's too much of any decoration to be Yeah, it's a and like that's you know, and he's the kind of guy who'd like you'd think would be like, oh, well, your environment affects like your mood and things like that, and like how do you live in that space? It's so all of your walls are men shooting each other and hoisting red flags, like of course you think Marxism is coming for Yeah, it's wild. And also like just

like the motive behind doing that. It's like if you're interesting, if you're like fascinated by like the history of Nazism because you want to like find out what they think and like fight it. If you want to fight. You're not like me, right, You're not gonna put Nazi ship everywhere. I have no Nazi propaganda on my walls, Cody, Yeah, that's normal that I'm glad. Like I do have one reproduction wer Mocht coat because it's a solid coat, but I only wear it when I'm hiking alone. Anyway, it's

a good coat. Look, I'm not gonna sucking the coats. Not the problem. Nobody hates the Nazis because their coats were good. Yeah, there was a problem. Doesn't have a squat stick on it. It's just a coat anyway. So uh. Peterson grew increasingly also, like during this kind of period where he's becoming darker and more weird and radical, Professor Schift notes that he grew increasingly interested in fringe health treatments. Quote.

He was preoccupied with alternative health treatments, including fighting off the signs of aging as they appear on the skin, and one time even shamanic healing practices, where, to my great surprise and distress, he chose to be the shame in himself. He did all of that with the same great fervor and commitments appropriative. I don't know, you know. Uh. Dr Peterson also struggled with depression. Now this has been a lifelong battle for him, dating back to his youthful

nightmares about atomic annihilation. But despite growing wiser and more successful, and despite his supportive family and his insights into the human mind, he could not rest his mind away from darkness. He described it as like being impaled quote by a dead, black and frozen tree. Now we don't have tremendous detail about his family life, but however, this impacted his behavior. His wife eventually threatened to leave him if he didn't

take antidepressants, and he eventually agreed to do so. Um, so it must have been pretty He must have been pretty unpleasant to be around. Sounds sounds it sounds. Yeah, he's already intense, Like he's already pretty pretty difficult to hang with. Yeah, so the pills came with side effects. Jordan felt sluggish. He found himself collapsing into sleep for

hours at a time. Somehow, he still managed to keep up his prodigious rate of productivity, but the demons in his head seemed to have a noteworthy impact on his personality. Professor Schiff writes that as the years went on, quote, his interest in political issues became more apparent. We disagreed about most things, but I don't ask of my friends that we agree. What was off putting was his tendency to be categorical about his positions, reminiscent of his lectures

where he presented personal theories as absolute truths. I really challenged him. He overwhelmed challenges with volumes of information that we're hard to process and evaluate. He was more forceful than I and he had a much quicker mind, also again evocative of what I saw in the classroom. He sometimes appeared to be in the thrall of his ideas and would not or could not constrain himself and self monitor what he was saying. Yeah, I mean I was right for a professor. Yeah, I'm gonna say not great

for a priest either. And that's not just like not great, yeah, just not great. Uh. Now. The chief political the chief political issue that came to increasingly dominate Jordan Peterson's life and concern was the idea and a fear about political correctness. This seems to have started with one of his clients that his his psychology practice who had gotten in trouble

at work over her resistance to political correctness. Talk at work, and I'm gonna uote from the New York Times here he says one patient had to be part of a long email chain over whether the term flip chart could be used in the workplace, since the word flip is

a pejorative for Filipino. She had a radical left boss who was really concerned with equality and equality of outcome and all these things, and diversity and inclusivity and all the buzzwords and she was subjected to She sent me the email chain thirty emails about whether or not the flip chart was acceptable. Mr Peterson says, so he was radicalized. He says, because the radical left wants to eliminate hierarchies, which he says are the natural order of the world.

It's a bit of a jump from I'll grant you that's people are like concerned about calling something a flip chart kind of dumb because the word flip has a long series of meanings that have nothing to do with racism towards Filipinos. If it were like yeah, like whatever, yes, yes, that's there are other examples, uh that I won't say because we're not I'm not gonna say that. Um, but like it's it's just a term. It's a word. It's

got many, many meanings. And to jump from that silly, like arguably silly thing to the Marxists are trying to like destabilize the world and like all of his all stuff is like come on, man, yeah, and the idea, I mean, I actually do want to eliminate hierarchies, but just the idea that because like you're maybe over concerned about, uh whether or not a specific term is offensive means that you want to eliminate all hierarchies, like I'm gonna

guarantee you whatever. Person like this radical left boss was actually probably like more or less a Democrat who really supported a hierarchical Democratic party and stuff and was just overly worried about police. Also, like he's talked about it's I don't know if we're gonna get into this more, but like he has talked about feeling boxed in, and like I believe the qutea is like I said, you know, everyone sort of claims that I'm some sort of right winger,

but it couldn't BeO farthest from the truth. He denies that he's like right wing um, but his his primary thing is being obsessed with hierarchies and reinforcing those hierarchies. That's like the definition of it. Yeah, that's the thing he loves most. It's like definitely definitionally, like that's what that's your right wing? Is it? Stuff like that. Whenever hear stuff like that, like prings me' is like, oh, you're you're just lying. Yeah, you're too You're too smart

to not know that. That's ridiculous. Well, and we'll talk about it, because he he has a lot of vested interest in defining himself as someone who's in like the middle, even though he's again very right wing. And there's a reason he's doing that, classical liberal. I'm sure, Oh yes, yeah. So in two thousand and fourteen, Dr Peterson took his growing frustration with political correctness and finally applied his famous

academic rigor to the issue. He carried out a study which he conducted with graduate student Christine Brophy, who we heard from a little earlier. Um and this study was initially about the relationship between political belief and personality. It turned, however,

into a study of so called politically correct people. Peterson and Brophy developed a list of two hundred statements from safe spaces are necessary to promote diversity of perspective and feathered headdresses should be banned at music festivals to police brutality is racial in nature. Now they use these questions to develop a questionnaire they could use to quiz people about how much they agreed with each statement. They questioned

two groups of people, eventually totally more respondents. According to Toronto Life, Peterson and Brophy can included that political correctness exists in two forms, which they call PC egalitarianism and PC authoritarianism. Simply put, PC egalitarians are classic liberals who advocate for more democratic governance and equality. PC authoritarians are According to Brophy, the ones now relabeled as social justice warriors, both share a high degree of compassion. Extreme compassion, they

believe can lead to difficulty assessing right from wrong. It can also mean the forgiveness of all failures and transgressions by people viewed as vulnerable any personality trait to an extreme as pathological Prophy says. Now, I'm not a psychologist, but I do have some issues with some of the questions that they're listing here. For example, safe spaces are necessary to promote diversity of perspective. I don't know that I would agree to any particular level with that. I

would say that if if people. What I would say is, if people feel like they need safe spaces in a school for whatever reason, I'm fine with them having that, uh, and and that if they find it valuable, sure, like why not? And I think most people are kind of in that. I don't think most people who don't have an issue with like the idea of a safe space on campus, would say they're necessary to promote diversity of perspective. They'd say, oh yeah, people need that. Why not, like

it's putting the room in the campus. Yeah, let's have a Yeah, things like I feel safe talking about a thing and there doesn't seem to be any sort of room for that in in the quit Like it seems like the questionnaire is kind of designed to get people to respond in an authoritarian way, like feathered head dresses should be banned at music festivals? Should they be banned? I wouldn't say they should be banned. Is it fucked up for like like white kids to like wear Native

American head dresses? Oh? Yeah, that's that's messed up. They shouldn't do that. Banned Yeah, music, Like I'm not gonna say that. Like the second thing will not Yeah, most will not be like oh yeah, banned them, banned them everywhere? That is that is written to elicit the kind of

result that he wants. And like, I spend a lot of time reading, especially on Twitter, like indigenous folks talking about stuff like this and why they find it offensive, and all of them are saying like yeah, or like they tend to be saying like, don't do this, it's messed up. They're not saying it should be you should get kicked out of a music festival. We need to write at that and like that. Yeah, they're trying to explain, like why it's offensive, which is different from saying bandon

at music festivals. Um, it's explaining these things and like why why why do people want to say space? Why do that? Why do is this? What is this not saying like we need to write laws to require them, or like we need to plan X or why. Um, it's also it's explained to people why this is messed up? Yeah. Yeah. The quote about like the they have too much compassion and like are prone too much to forgiveness or something? Yes, well yeah, okay, that's a big WS were obsessed with

canceling people. Yeah. Yeah, We'll talk a lot about Jordan B. Peterson and what he thinks about compassion and how it's bad and how that might relate to some things other groups of people have said in the past before doing very bad things that Jordan B. Peterson claims to know about and want to prevent. It's interesting relation between that hardness. Yeah.

So the article goes on to note that, like most psychologists in his field, Dr Peterson believes there are five major personality traits extra version, agree bullness, openness, conscientiousness, and neuroticism. These traits are supposed to be universal across different cultures. All of this sounds problematic as hell and really dumb

to me. I'm not a psychologist. I have trouble believing that that's true because that all seems like fucking nonsense, like that you can you can separate ship out like that, Like, but I don't know. I don't like this stuff anyway. So maybe I'm just an idiot. But I think that sounds dumb as hell. If that's something all psychologists believe, maybe psychology is kind of stupid. Yeah, maybe it's kind

of dumb. Um that said, yeah, I find a lot of what's written about all this to be low key terrifying, like this quote from Toronto Life. These traits have both biological and cultural origins, and, as Peterson is fond of saying, the biological factors maximizing places like Scandinavia that have strenuously tried to flatten out the cultural differences. Biology is therefore, in a sense destiny. No matter how much people may

want to deny it. Now, this is all a dressed And again I'm not saying this is what I saw a psychologists believe, because I don't think that's true. I think this is what George Peterson is. Yeah, I think he's a little outside the norm there. Yeah, this is what Bell Curve motherfucker's believe. Um. And it's all dressed up in pop psych terms and academic verbiage. But Peterson's

right on the urge of arguing about biological essentialism. He is arguing that this is the same strain of thought that leads to like the Bell Curve ship, where you talk about how Black Eye Q was inherently lower and if you start talking about that ship, you wind up having the kind of questions about whole races that lead to real bad things going down. Yeah, he's got tons of stuff, Yeah, a lot of malling new kind of things.

And that's that's the thing that I think he's never really addressed of, Like if he doesn't dive this and this and this and this, what's the next thing? What's the logical result to this way of thinking? He will always say like no, no, no, Like I think people are like I don't think there's any intelligence difference, and like men and women and stuff like that. But like then he will make arguments where like but this leads you to a conclusion that's kind of different from the

thing that you're saying. Yeah, and like how to deal with there's a Uh one of the worst things I think he talks about. It's about i Q and how because the military doesn't let people in the military under a certain i Q that yea, that they cannot function in society. They cannot contribute to society because we don't let them in the military. Uh. And he said, so these two claims, he says, Therefore, that's the most horrifying thing I've ever heard. Um. He doesn't go further than that.

He hasn't explained why. But he talks about how if we if they can't contribute to society citation needed. Uh, and we can't pay them like universal basic income thing like that doesn't work either again citation needed Therefore, and then trailing off, yeah, yeah, we need to gas them in trust, Like what do you do? What do you do with these people? Um, it's just like these like X is true, even though it's not why it is even though it's not. Therefore you figure out the Z

for yourself. It's clear, as with everything that Jordan Peterson is wrong about that he has no real experience with people who have you know, what you would call like I cues lower than that threshold. Again, I worked in

this field. I worked with particularly a number of kids with Down syndrome who would not have been able to join the military um, but also who were physically healthy and who were perfectly capable of doing like we would get them, would help them get jobs working in like like making sandwiches and stuff like that, and they could do things and they needed some help. They would live in like a semi independent assisted living sort of facility when they became adults, but they would do jobs, they

would have friends, they would contribute to society. They're perfectly capable, Like there are there are a very small number of people who because of a mix of like physical and mental you know, like stuff like can't like need pretty much total help. Like I did work with some of those kids, but most of them. And part of the goal of like a good program helping those people is to find a way for them to be a part of society and be around and and live with and

contribute with everyone else. And because there's no reason that they should. Yeah, exactly, use they can't join the enquirement on people of like either you contribute to society in the way that society has decided that you contribute to it, or you're out. Um is also ridiculous. It's also but also saying that people need to have a job to contribute to society. But also like like comparing people like you can't get into the military there for X and Y,

you know, wasn't allowed in the military. The president of the United States we had Yeah, um, and I don't see Peterson talking about how if you have bones spurs and you can't you know, it's it's like everything he says, it's just like a wild, disgusting sort of approach to how humans are. Yeah, I don't. I don't like it

now do Why So? In two thousands sixteen, Canada started to debate over a bil C sixteen that would expand the country's human rights law by adding gender identity and gender expression to the list of things employers in the government can't The scrim it against this would have meant that college professors like Dr Peterson would have had to

refer to non binary and trans students by their preferred pronouns. Now, obviously this was just one aspect of the law, which would have also done stuff like, you know, help make it harder to deny trans people apartments are like exactly, yeah, all the things that you don't want people to be

discriminated for us so they can live their lives. Yes, but to Dr Peterson, the thought that he might be forced to refer to someone by their chosen pronoun um, even if he didn't like that they'd chosen that pronoun that's all that mattered. That's all this law was in it. Jordan's started recording YouTube videos outlining his resistance to the law. He attracted a following, and eventually a very massive one.

He started engaging in highly publicized debates which his followers tended to see his him crushing and destroying his ideological enemies. He argued that the bill was a serious infringement of freedom of speech, and soon reached an audience of millions of non Canadians. I'm not sure to what extent this was purposeful, but Peterson's stand came at a perfect moment, as the simmering culture war between right and left in the US started to reach a boil. Soon there were

protests against Peterson. His supporters showed up to counter. There were fights and arrests in media coverage, and you know, we talked about George Lincoln Rockwell, like that's the best thing for these kinds of people is media coverage and fights and stuff. So the dean of the University of Toronto st Peterson a letter saying that his refusal to use people's pronouns revealed discriminatory intentions, which I would argue

was accurate. The letter went on to warn him that the impact of your behavior runs the risk of undermining your ability to conduct essential components of your job as a faculty member. And like an educator, like like an educator, like you're educating people and someone's like, please my refer to me as she instead of he, And then he says he, that's like a hostile learning environment. Yeah, yeah,

you just being a dick. Which is not to say that kids shouldn't be challenged and like and and deal with ideas that are uncomfortable in school you want to, but it also it does mean that like one of the basic things you should expect from a college is that they're not going to be shitty to you personally for no good reason, because that's bad and you shouldn't do that to students. It's not kind of makes you not want to go to the lecture anymore, makes you

not want to go to the lecture. It contributes to problems of suicidal nature. Like, it's just bad and it's not justified. And if you like, you don't have an

inherent right to be a teacher. If you're going to be a teacher, we have the right to say you shouldn't do certain things like hit on your students, even if you're both adults, because it's a college colleges, Like you have the right as an adult, as a thirty five year old PhD. You have the right to date a nineteen year old absolutely legally, you have that right

as a thirty five year old college professor. If you date a nineteen year old student, you will probably get in trouble because we've decided that makes for a bad learning environment. Makes sense, Yeah, yeah, I don't think he would be okay, I mean he's got other issues with that, but like that specific thing and keeping your door open when you have meetings with female students, and stuff. Yeah,

but whatever, whatever, So Peterson ignored the dean. He took a sabbatical from work, and he started a Patreon where his his new followers could pledge monthly payments in exchange for Q and A sessions, online courses, and even monthly one on one counseling with a man himself. He was soon making like eighty grand a month, like crazy money on this, very very success, very good at Patreon now.

All the while, Peterson continued to ram hard into particularly the issue of recognizing trans people's identities from Toronto Life to his mind, arguing that gender is a social construct or a kind of performance, as the Ontario Human Rights Code says, an individual subjective experience is just wrong. It's not an alternative hypothesis, Peterson says, it's an incorrect hypothesis. That's why the damn social justice warriors are trying to

get it in stagiated into law. They're implementing a social constructions view of human identity into the law. No, they're just saying, if you're going to work in one of these public fields, you don't get to treat people shitty because their trans are non binary. It's a very basic thing. You don't even have to believe. You can believe that transgender people are unhealthy and mentally ill and still call them by their preferred pronouns because it doesn't matter what

we think privately about each other. If you're going to work in a public thing like that, there's certain basic things you shouldn't do because it's just it's being a dick and it's fucking up the ability of you to do your job. Yeah, it's common it's common sense and common decency. It's if I if we're in a working environment, or like us, an educational environment and you're trying to teach me something or be my colleague and you're calling me butt shit and I'm like, actually, could you call

me by my name? And you're like, no, your name is butch okay, Cody. Now you're bringing up a personal issue you and I have had at work, and I thought we talked with HR about this and my behavior was above approach. Well, HR didn't solve the problem, and we're here now so we can This is live and this is why I came on today to confront you about this. Fired. Well, I'm going to start a Patreon and I will contribute eighty dollars to that. Thank you, so, so we can talk about this one on one UM

So C sixteen passed this Canadian antidiscrimination thing. It's now law in Canada, and things are fine. It hasn't destroyed. Freedom of speakings are fine. Name of person who's been like arrested for this. It's Canada's in broadly better shape than the United States. The problems they have aren't because of this law. Right again, like the penalty for like someone like a teacher using someone's pronouns, like refusing to use someone's pronouns as like a fine. Um, it's essentially

a traffic in fraction. Is kind of how they treat it um. And obviously this has had Like the fact that everything's fine has had no impact on Jordan Peterson, who went right on yelling about trans people for their made up pronouns and has made that like made that a cornerstone of his career and is increasingly popular YouTube lectures. He urged his fans to treat trans and non binary

people as confused or deluded. When one person, after a public lecture, acts him why he would not use non binary pronouns, he stated, I don't believe that using your pronouns will do you any good in the long run, which is not your decision to make. Jordan, Oh, my god, Jordan is not. I don't. I don't. I I have been an employer. I have hired people, some of them have been religious. I don't believe that going to church

does you any good. But you know what, if I were to be discriminatory about them because they go to church and I don't care for church, I would rightfully get in trouble because that's fucked up and none of my goddamn business. Yeah, rightfully get in trouble for that. It's the same thing. It's all so uh, my opic. Yeah, but he won't want but he won't like change. It won't change his mind that any of these things don't add up, or that it hasn't like affected anybody. It's

the same thing. When he was on that comedian confronted him about like the gay wedding cake bakery issue, and he compared it to the civil rights movement, and then Jordan Peterson on camer was like, oh, I guess maybe I was wrong about that, Um, And he sort of like realized how fool like foolish he was being. Um. And then never we ever heard from it again, never heard of it again. He did not actually change his

mind or approach at all. No, he just got realized that he couldn't actually make a good argument against it, so he continued to repeat it when he was not arguing and was instead lecturing to a room of people who would never question him. Yep ye. In the follow up questions during that same lecture, another student asked if without C. Sixteen, he'd be willing to use pronouns like they and them if a transgender person asked him to.

He responded that it might depend on how they asked, which is like the same thing Ben Shapiro says, right, like, because actually, if you're a person, you just generally choose not to be shitty to the people immediately around you because it makes life harder for no good goddamn reason. Um. Yeah, it's frustrating, real, real simple and frustrating. Yeah, it depends on how they asked. God, what a unbelievable I can't even say yeah, I can't even can't even just confirm

like yeah, of course, because I'm a decent person. It's extra frustrating because in a in a bunch of his writing, Peterson does talk about the fact that cultures obe evolve and change over time. He's written about this at length, and he's also admitted that cultural understanding of gender and like pronoun usage might change, and that that would be okay.

During one of his two thousand sixty debates, Peterson admitted, if our society comes to some sort of consensus over the next while about how we'll solve the pronoun problem, and that becomes part of popular parlance, and it seems to solve the problem properly without sacrificing the distinction between singular and plural, and without requiring me to memorize an impossible list of an indefinite number of pronouns that I would be willing to reconsider my position. And again, part

of this is, like he like, there's always this. There are some people who have like suggested what I think are probably kind of linguistically non kind of dead ends, like Z, which is like I don't think you're gonna get love, but like they in them number one already perfectly acceptable to use either a singular and plural or whatever, and like there's not there's just not an indefinite, interminably long list of pronouns that like people are really or

like they're just saying, like, yeah, don't don't call me, Like if I say, don't call me this, like try to remember to call me the thing that that that I identify with. Like, and it's also not even like people always assume like if you if you say something accidentally or like you don't know, like that's that's it. That's the one that's gonna get it, like, well know, then you'll be corrected and then you like alter your

behavior slately. Yeah, and it it doesn't even matter if you really get it, because I like to be entirely honest, Like I've read a lot of stuff about gender nonconforming stuff that I haven't understood, But all that matters is that when someone says, hey, this is how I prefer to be like that, Okay, fine, yeah, absolutely, Like yeah, just don't easy easy yeah yeah, yeah, it's it's so easy. Yeah,

it's very very simple. Really. So yeah. Peterson's real issue here is that in his mind, being trans or non binary or anything that's not like male female, any of this stuff is unhealthy. In his conception of the world, order is masculine, and chaos is feminine and if it turns out that a whole bunch of people aren't really either, then the cosmology of his mental universe might have to change, and Jordan Peterson is not willing to do that now.

The thing I find most worrying about him, and most potentially dangerous, is this obsession with whether or not other people are healthy. This is really the big issue with Jordan Peterson um It consumes him, and it leads him to attack people who make choices that don't fit his definition of healthy. A great example of this in action would be Peterson's reaction to the rise of in cell

related terrorist attacks. In two thousand eighteen, and in voluntary celibate man named Alec Menascian rented a van and drove it into a crowded sidewalk. He killed ten people and wounded fourteen more, and I think most of his victims were women, which was his goal. In a Facebook post he made prior to his shooting, Manasseian wrote private recruit Menassey in infantry zero zero zero one zero, wishing to speak to Sergeant four chand please, the Insell rebellion has

already begun. We will overthrow all the Chads and Stacy's all hail the supreme gentleman Elliott Roger, and he killed a bunch of people. Now this is interesting to me because I I am actually, like, like a recognized expert

in online radicals. I make money from it, like it quoted by fucking like a lot like this is the thing that I study like it's the only thing that I actually have any degree of meaningful expertise and other than certain narcotics um and to me, as a guy who studies this for a living, Menascians, post make us a few things very clear. One of them is that he was radicalized in a community of similarly inclined people somewhere on four chance his radicalization occurred as part of

a community that was self radicalizing. Two he was directly inspired by the example of another involuntary celibate terrorist, Elliott Roger, who was like the first one of them to shoot a bunch of people. And three he sees his actions as something akin to military service and defense of a cause. Right, those things are very clear from that post, which tells you a lot about this man and how he became

radicalized towards violence. A very useful piece of data if you actually care about what causes people to carry out attacks like this. Jordan Peterson doesn't know much about radical or at least he doesn't admit to knowing much about it, because he's never published anything relevant on in cells or

on terrorism in general. But when he was asked about this, he still felt the need to propose sweeping government mandated changes in civilization in order to stop to such attacks, which, given his attitudes towards other government mandated things, I find interesting. I'm gonna quote from the New York Times here violent attacks or what happened when men do not have partners? Mr Peterson says, in society needs to work to make sure those men are married. He was angry at God

because women were rejecting him. Mr Peterson says, of the Toronto killer, the cure for that has enforced monogamy. That's actually why monogamy emerges. Mr Peterson does not pause when he says this enforced monogamy is to him, simply a rational solution. Otherwise women will only go for the most high status men, he explains, and that couldn't make either gender happy. In the end. Half the men fail, he says, meaning they don't procreate and no one cares about the

men who fail. I laugh because it is absurd. This is the New York Torms Times reporter. You're laughing about them, he says, giving me a disappointed look. That's because you're female. But aside from interventions that would redistribute sex, Mr Peterson is staunchly against what he calls equality of outcomes or efforts to equalize society. He usually calls them pathological. They're evil. He agrees that this is inconsistent for preventing hordes of

single men from violence. He believes necessary for the stability of society. Enforced monogamy helps neutralize that. M a lot of a lot. There's a lot there, didn't He walked this back and was like, why didn't mean like literally a law. I just mean like culturally we should like generally like support monogamy and like like but again, even that is like, yeah, you're saying that society should change, whether or not it's by a law or just by culturally we support this and our vocal about it or

do like campaigns or propaganda about it or whatever it is. Uh, yeah, I know what's wild, Cody. I spent I don't have any kids, and I spent a decent chunk of my my early adulthood single, I also had access to firearms and I didn't shoot anybody. You know why, because that's bad to do that. And you know what, I have a lot of friends who were men and not dating women and not don't have kids, and you know what they don't do is murder a bunch of people people

because it's bad to murder people. Yeah, it's bad because it's wrong. Um, that's all you need. It's very it's very easy, yeah, yeah, to not commit mass murder. And like, if people are committing mass murder, but people who are you know, single and and don't have kids don't commit mass murder, maybe the thing that's causing the mass murder

isn't the fact that they're single. Butt instead other factors like radicalization within communities that are inherently toxic and push people towards violence, and are perhaps artificially accelerated and um and and publicized by certain like algorithmic realities that cause Yeah, maybe maybe the issue is more in the thing that this person does and everyone else who is single doesn't do, and this person and other people who are in these

same communities carry out terrorist attacks and other people who aren't dating anybody, don't carry out terrorist acts. Maybe we should care about this community that they're in. Maybe the community is the problem. Maybe it's the environment that they keep going back to, um like a feedback loop. Also like yeah, his his approach to it is So it's bizarre too, because it's like, no, you're you're just do the clean your room advice. Yeah, like that's the that's

the advice. Like well, yeah, like guys would like work on themselves and like be socialized and like uh, you know, get get a new skill, become desirable and these sort of things instead of wallowing in it and these like

sad online extreme groups. It's there's a lot that's fucked up about it, like and it's just the worst part of it is this idea that personal responsibility matters to these people up until people have a problem with something like that that they also find weird, and then it doesn't matter that like you're supposed to people are supposed to be free and personal responsibility is supposed to matter. Like let's ban this thing that I personally think is

kind of weird. Um, like fuck you people, Yeah, that's that's where I land. Um Yeah, no, no, authoritarian unless unless chaos is creeping in my idea of whatever chaos might be. Yeah, yeah, chaos is stuff I don't like in order is stuff that I already like. So I don't need to change at all. The world needs to change in order for me to be happy, which is the thing that Jordan's says is the cause of all evil in the world. But he doesn't recognize that he does.

It's wild, yeah, because like he's like, well, yeah, don't don't try to change the world unless you've like perfected yourself and fixed up your own stuff. He's a mess, so like what is maybe he should stop doing it too if he really like, if you go through his twelve rules for life, he does not follow a single one of them. No new Okay, so that's the episode. Cody, you want to tell people where they can find you on the internet dot com where there's part two Internet

Part two. Yeah, there will be a second part of this good talking so much more to say. I've been saving it. Yeah, my name is Cody and you can find me online on Twitter Dr Mr Cody, who's the google him on the accounts. I've got a show called some More News on YouTube. We've got a Patreon if you let's support us in a podcast called even More News. I do another podcast called Worst Year Ever with the host of this show and my co host of the

other shown Cody's Patreon. It'll be great. Treon m episodes over Swish