Part One: Alfred Hugenberg: The Elon Musk of Weimar Germany - podcast episode cover

Part One: Alfred Hugenberg: The Elon Musk of Weimar Germany

Apr 08, 20251 hr 14 min
--:--
--:--
Listen in podcast apps:

Episode description

Transcript

Speaker 1

Also media. Hey everybody, Robert here, we had a little mic error for the first couple of minutes of the episode. My audio is going to sound a little shitty for literally like three or four minutes, and then it'll be back to normal. Apologies. Welcome back to Behind the Bastards of podcasts, where I am eternally frustrating my business partner and the only person who really cares about me, Sophie Lichtermann. Sophie, why do I do the things that I do? Why

do I? Why do I taught you when you're just trying to trying to help make me, make me a successful person? What's wrong with me?

Speaker 2

You like to self sabotage?

Speaker 1

I love self sabotaging.

Speaker 2

Oh my god, you do, and like I recognize that.

Speaker 3

So when you do it, I still I still help anyways because I'm rooting for you.

Speaker 1

So you speaking of self sabotaging. You know who doesn't self sabotage?

Speaker 2

God, I hope not a.

Speaker 1

Very successful person. Our wonderful guest today Amanda Montell, author of the book Cultish, which I've cited on this show.

Speaker 2

We've all read. Yeah, we've all read the book.

Speaker 1

If you have it, what are you doing inluence definitely influenced the Zizzy AND's episodes influenced a lot of my work, Amanda, thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 4

Hey, it's a joy and a pleasure. And you know, so many of my sounds like a cult. Listeners are obsessed with your show. That's how I learned about it from them, So I stoked.

Speaker 1

We love cults over here. You know, it's hard. It's one of those things where it's both just objectively. Cult leaders have the highest odds of any group of bad people of being incredibly.

Speaker 4

Entertaining, right, I know, I know, especially when your definition of cult leader is as loose as mine, Lucy Goosey. Uh yeah, endless, endless entertainment. I was thinking also, like, as soon as people stop exploiting others, our podcasting career are just gonna tank.

Speaker 1

Well, the good news is I do have several generations of people, several hundred generations of people being shitty to each other to get through.

Speaker 4

Oh so true. No, your your career stability is like on Luck Nixon. Yet, Oh my god, no, you have You're you're basically a tenured professor in the program of bastard studies.

Speaker 1

I just realized I sent Sophie the wrong script because I was up til six am. But she's got the right one now, and so do.

Speaker 2

I am Robert Jesus Christ.

Speaker 1

What could be better to do today when we have Amanda Motel on then an episode that's not really about a cult except for everything. I mean, I guess if you want to call the Nazis ocult, it's a little bit about a cult. But he wasn't even really.

Speaker 5

Not sure oh okay, he was.

Speaker 1

Just he was actually kind of Usually like when you're talking about like a German who is like prominent in the early thirties and you say like he wasn't a Nazi, you're saying it to be like because he was like some sort of hero, right or you know, someone who was trying to do the right thing, you know, in the middle okay, dark period. The guy we're talking about today is a man named Alfred Hugenberg, and he wasn't a Nazi in a way that makes him kind of worse than the Nazis.

Speaker 5

Holy shit, Oh my god, I'm pumped.

Speaker 4

Okay, I said this at the beginning before we started recording, but like, please don't apologize that we're not doing a coal eader.

Speaker 5

As you can imagine, I'm like.

Speaker 4

Kind a sick of it, but I'm I'm on a World War two kick.

Speaker 2

I mean, actually it's.

Speaker 5

Been an extended kick. It's been an extended kick.

Speaker 4

So I'm yeah, is it appropriate to say like I'm pumped to talk about Oh yeah.

Speaker 1

Shugenberg, fellow, we love the big dub dub dos and this is Hugenberg is number one, one of the key guys in making the Nazi regime happen, although again he's not a Nazi and he hates them. He hates them, okay because most Nazis are kind of poor for most of the period time, and he is a rich dude. This is Alfred Hugenberg. Be here to call him the Elon Musca find our Germany.

Speaker 5

That's the first thing. That's the first thing that came to mind. That is the first thing that came.

Speaker 4

To fucking mind, because like Elon, you know, he's playing ball, but he you know that, he just disdains like sh No, he thinks they're pitiful.

Speaker 5

He thinks they're like small potatoes.

Speaker 4

I allegedly, in my opinion, I don't know, I don't know what's going on in that noggin of his Thank god, but that's the first thing that came to mind.

Speaker 1

No one ever has, so I guess let's just get into this because it's one of those things. And when it comes to his early life, not a super Elon early life, when it comes to his role in the Nazi regime, it's almost beat for beat exactly what Elon has done, right to the point where like Elon is now it looks like getting edged out of Doge. There's a number of reports that Trump is kind of tired

of him. He said that he's stepping back. It's all like all of that, but it's going to be an interesting history of like a German piece of shit that like doesn't sound all that much like Elon. And then he's going to get in power and it's like, oh wow, these guys was he was Elon? Just like cripping off this fucker's notes, it's the same story. It's so funny.

Speaker 4

Oh my god, I'm so excited again. I'm not sure if that's the right adjective, but like on the edge of my seat, on the tips of.

Speaker 1

My toes, I get I get giddy when I get a new Hitler book in the mail. So I get it, you know.

Speaker 5

Oh good, Okay, is that a problem?

Speaker 1

Sure?

Speaker 5

I feel I feel really free, I feel really safe.

Speaker 1

Yeah, this is a safe place for us. Probably shouldn't say Hitler stands, but.

Speaker 5

Oh my god, I just loved Reich Knowers.

Speaker 4

Yeah, I just I Any anytime someone can pull off saying the words Giddy and Hitler in one sence, I'm like, we are cut from the same cloth.

Speaker 1

My friend Hitler usually wasn't even giddy talking about Hitler didn't like being around himself.

Speaker 5

Oh that's what he needed the crowds.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, and this is yeah, so we'll get into it. Alfred Ernst Christian Alexander Hugenberg was born on June nineteenth, eighteen sixty five, in the city of Hanover, which five years or so later would become the city of Hanover, Germany. So again he predates Germany by about five years. These are still just a bunch of states, with Austria being or without Prussia being the dominant one.

Speaker 5

Russia. I was gonna say Prussia, and I was like, if that's wrong, I'm gonna sound so dumb. But it's all giving Prussian era.

Speaker 1

Goddamn Prussians and the goddamn Prussians, like as a as a general rule, are they just pants Austria? Not not far from the time that he's born, right, which is

why Austria is on you know. Anyway, So the fact that Germany becomes a thing is largely the work of a fella named Otto von Bismarck, who orchestrated a series of wars, treaties, and alliances that culminated in the defeat of Napoleon, the Thirds France and the rise of the Prussian Kaiser as the emperor of all Germanic peoples, or at least like is like Austria, Hungary is still separate

most of the Germanic peoples. In those heady early days of Imperial Germany, people get very excited about the idea of Germany. Right, It's like fucking pokemon when it starts off, right, You folks can't get enough of Germany there?

Speaker 6

What are they trying to catch other Germans? Right, Like, that's the go We got to get all the Germans. We got a katamari, all of the Germans into this thing, and that'll pro and well, putting all the Germans in one box seems like it'll not lead.

Speaker 1

To a series of world wars. So there's this kind of academic theory that's being promulgated, you know, around this time. And obviously it's being promulgated before the formation of Germany, but it really gets supercharged afterwards. And it's called pan Germanism.

And this is the assertion that Prussians and Bavarians and Saxons and you know, Hanover Hanoverians or whatever shouldn't see themselves as different peoples and certainly not as different nations, but as one united German people who have a manifest destiny to spread not just in Europe but across a grand colonial empire that ought to because Germans are a great people, and they deserve what the British have, Right, there's a lot of there's a lot of this, like

they're very insecure, the Germans in this period of time, right, and so there's a lot of why don't we have a lot of stuff the British. The British have so much stuff, any stuff?

Speaker 5

Come on, God, Well, here's a cult. Here's a cult.

Speaker 4

Parallel at a cult leader is often someone little chip on their shoulder.

Speaker 5

I was like, hey, hey, now.

Speaker 1

That is that's every Kaiser to be honest, and it's certainly auto von Bismarck. So they start they start being like, how are we gonna how are we going to create a space for us Germans that's worthy of the name. Now, these kind of nascent ideas, even though they're starting to gain traction, they're not even initially. They're not universally popular, and not even within Germany because, among other things, these different German states have been fighting each other up until

very recently. Right, the Prussian Yunker class, which is kind of like their nobility, has a bunch of ancestral privileges, right that they maintain even once Germany becomes a thing, and they're not eager to give those up, right, They're like, what you mean you mean I have to give up my power over those uncouth Bavarians.

Speaker 4

No, uh, And the idea not everybody, So not everybody's down to be panned, No.

Speaker 1

No, not everybody. This is this is like there's a lot of conflict over this. Now, the idea that Germany should expand colonially, largely in Africa is less objectionable. People are very into this, but they're also not great at it. Right.

They kind of get like the shit their attitude and everyone's attitude is they get kind of like the shitty pieces of Africa, Like Namibia a lovely place, but it's like not, it's like a desert, right, it's not at the time seen as like, well, it doesn't have that much stuff for us to exploit compared to like what we want to be exploiting. And they're looking at the British who own like fucking a third, like a shitload of Africa, and like what the fuck, guys, And so

this is what's all. This is all what's going on as Alfred Hugenberg has his childhood now, unlike Elon because you know we've made that comparison, he is not born into wealth or into really much privilege at all. Some people will say his upbring was upbringing was comfortable. That's not wildly untrue by the standards of the time, but we would not see this as a comfortable upbringing, and in fact it's kind of close to Hitler's childhood. Alfred's

dad is like a civil servant. He's a guy who works in the administrative state, and he dies when Hugenberg is very young, and Alfred is the only son in the family, which is also like Hitler, and the Hitler comparisons keep right on hitlering because both young men also spend their adolescent years aware of the fact that their mom,

since their dad is gone, is incredibly financially strained. Right, they have this pension, but none of the pensions are enough to take care of a family, and so they're like, they're there, it's a tremendously difficult time. And he can't not have been aware of the fact that they were poor now, right. So there are some other similarities between Hitler and Hugenberg. Both young men were moved to create art and their early years. Hitler becomes an obsessive devotee

of the opera and has ambitions as a painter. Meanwhile, Hugenberg is a really talented creative writer, with what biographer John Leopold described as quote a flair for literary expression. And you know, if your kid who's good at writing, that can be a great way to express yourself and to work through some of your trauma and stuff. Alfred does not do any of that, sure, which is actually

a real difference. Because Hitler throws himself a whole hog into being an artist, he kind of sucks at He's not any good but like yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5

Oh it's definitely giving, like George W. Bush's painting endeavor. Yes, like yes, I don't know, although the order of operations was slipped, w entered painting after his political tenure, right, maybe Hitler should have done that. I don't know.

Speaker 1

I gotta say Hitler better painter than George W. Bush. Oh okay, less Bush. You know, there's a degree of where like, okay, you're trying to like creatively represent how you feel about the people you're painting. Hitler was just sort of like look at that right building building.

Speaker 5

No, they were like landscape hundred percent. He had no point of view.

Speaker 1

No, no, exactly exactly, but which probably says anyway people have people have tried to psychoanalyze that ship for years. What's interestingly about Hugenberg is that he has and he'll write some books later, but he has like a literary skill like he could have been, you know, a fiction writer or something like that.

Speaker 5

And he's Hubbard.

Speaker 1

Well hey, I didn't say he could be anywhere as good as LRH. You know, okay, okay, sorry, nobody the man who could put a fifty thousand word novel out in just seven hours of taking rents, uh, just popping pills like you. I mean, we don't have the technology for someone to be as on amphetamines as all Ron Hubbard was back then, right, yeah, so true. Yeah, it's it really is like quite a special time and place,

so Hugenberg chooses. What's kind of interesting to me is that Hugenberg doesn't just sort of like fail to explore his potential as an artist. He purposefully forces himself not to write, right, not to make art, because he just like that's silly, and that's like artists are poor, and I am not going to be poor. So thereby I am going to make I'm going to stop myself from exploring this thing that I'm good at in order to study the things that will make me good as a businessman.

Right huh yeah, okay.

Speaker 7

Very self flatullating interesting, Yes, well yeah, he very much is this Like I this is not an appropriate thing for a man who wants to be rich to do.

Speaker 1

So even those is what I want to do, I will stop myself from doing it because he wants he is going to be rich, that's his like goal from the start, and he's going to He's going to make generational wealth, right, like he wants. He wants his kids to help to part own the Reich, so he initially follows in his father's path. He studies the law and

political economy in his secondary education. He is very well in school, very bright guy, and he has from the beginning a flair for money, which would have been noticed by his instructors from the jump. They also would have noticed his skill as a writer, but not for long because he again he decides to quote unquote suppress his skill in order to focus on his career. He talks about it as like I made a choice to smother the artistic side of me so that I could make

more money. Now Alfred makes a couple of friends, but he has no real hobbies outside of his business ambitions. And if he had anything we might term a pastime, it was thinking about the way that the state and the economy worked and how they ought to work. Right very early age, he's thinking about why do the economics of the time function this way? And like, how can I changed them to function in what I would term

is like better. So his first while he's in college effectively he gets you know, he does his dissertation right, which is his first book length publication like these are effectively books, and his first dissertation is titled Internal Colonization in Northwest Germany, which he fitishes at the University of Strasbourg in eighteen ninety one. In his book on Hugenberg, John Leopold writes, quote, the young doctoral candidate analyzed and detail the role of the state in fostering economic growth.

This volume depicted three themes which always undergird Hugenberg's political views. First, the state would have to assist the farmer and totally abandon a las ai ferre approach to agriculture. Second, the farmer would have to act as an entrepreneur and form a capitalist bulwark against Marxism. And third, Germany would have to expand its empire. So a couple of things are going on here when we talk about internal colonization Germany right now, the imperial Germany includes a bunch of Poland

right now. If you're thinking, think back to your maps

of Europe. Poland's Poles, not Germans. These are within the boundaries of the German state, a colonized people, and Germany is sending German farmers into this occupied Polish territory to try to Germanify it right, Like that's very much what's going on, and Hugenberg's writing about that, but he's also writing about like there's not really enough Poland for us, like maybe we could get some more, I don't know, but also we need to be taking more of Africa

because we need to continue like kind of shotgunning these farmers out, and we can't just sort of let the market take care of them because then they might not succeed, Like it's part of this. He's not really talking all that much in racial terms, although he is a racist, but he's very much the conclusions he comes to are identical to the ones Hitler is going to come to thinking through racial terms, which is interesting.

Speaker 4

Yeah, yeah, I mean, do you think do you think I actually wasn't aware that Germany was sort of like jealous of Britain's colonization.

Speaker 1

Efforts, hugely jealous of Britain and hugely jealous of the US Hitler killer is obsessed with.

Speaker 4

Yeah, okay, okay, that's key context because if a whole nation, fledgling nation, whatever, nation that's trying to build itself has you know, uh, like popular kid in school to look up to and feel jealous of, that can create that can create to use the school analogy some kind of like in cell inferiority complex type behavior, which is what I'm getting here.

Speaker 1

This is exactly what's happening to all of Germany. Yeah, badness is we've talked about those in the show. Hitler rows up obsessed with the cowboy novels of a guy named Karl May. Sorry, Karl May is like the JK. Rowling of his day. He is a children's book author who writes these books about like his experiences in the American West, fighting alongside Indians, and they're all lies, like he's a con mad. But Hitler is obsessed with this. He like mails copies of them his generals on the

Western Front. But all of Germany is, and the late eighteen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds obsessed with us, like with westward expansion, right.

Speaker 4

Yeah, rugged masculine expansion is a manifest destiny.

Speaker 1

But also this there's this feeling like, well, America is obviously destined to be a great nation. God has just given them this empty continent with no people on it that they get to take. They're jealous and Hugenberg that this is such a foundational aspect of German, like the German character that like, to this day there are festivals to this guy in Germany, and like people will do the equivalent of like US renfaars where they're dressing up

as Native Americans in Germany. That happened, This happens to day. No, yes, it's a whole thing. It's a massive deal.

Speaker 4

Wait, I can't, I can't, I can't get the irony of like US throw the United States celebrating the European Renaissance, and Europe celebrating like some fictionalized and surely very problematic and fucked up vision of the.

Speaker 5

Early days in the US. It's truly, the grass is always the grass.

Speaker 1

Is always greener on the other side of the imperialism. So Hugenberg is not, you know, as obsessed with cowboys as Hitler, but he's very much obsessed with this idea of expansion and he sees he sees it as a matter of survival for the German race. And he writes that Germany will only quote gain power and significance by taking it from others. And when he says others, he's talking a little bit about Europeans, but he's mostly thinking

about Africa right now. While I said earlier that Alfred was not a man with hobbies or a social life. He does nothing but work. I mean he's getting a doctorate, which you do kind of have to be that way to get a doctorate for a little while at least, right if any of my friends who got doctor it's

there anything to go by. But he does have one extracurricular activity he starts to engage in around this time, the same year he published his dissertation, eighteen ninety one, he helps to co found a political club, the German General League. Now you won't find a lot written about this incarnation of the organization, but historian Barry Jackish describes it as a political pressure group critical of the German

government's foreign and domestic policy decisions. Now that's a definition so vague it could refer to an organization of any ideology. So I should further say, the specific ideological launching point of this group that Hugenberg starts with a bunch of other guys is the idea of PA Germanism that I

discussed at the opening of the episode. Jackish continues, the Pan Germans were an openly expansionist organization that called for German colonies and spheres of influence throughout the world, and the creation of a strong navy to reinforce Germany's newly gained status abroad. In domestic politics, the League supported an

authoritarian monarchy and opposed the growth of parliamentary democracy. The League also sought to combat what it regarded as the pernicious influence of a myriad of un German elements, particularly Slavs, often Catholics, and ultimately Jews. So these are not Nazis because those don't exist yet, But you're seeing the Nazi in this group, right, Like it's it's not so much of a leap from this to the Nazis, right for sure, Yeah, strung notes of Nazis, right, yeah, yeah, this is like

a Sega dreamcast. Isn't a PlayStation two, but.

Speaker 8

Like, oh I can see what people were like working towards, right, Yeah, for sure, this is the Sega Dreamcast of national socialism, That's what we can say.

Speaker 1

So and also they are playing Crazy Taxi, So a lot of direct elements to the Sega Dreamcast. I'm gonna guess nobody gets my Sega Dreamcast jokes.

Speaker 4

But whatever I was, I was nodding and I wanted to understand. I really it's like my partner will talk about video games sometimes. That is a video game, right, it was.

Speaker 1

It was a video game system. It just didn't it didn't. It didn't make it. It didn't make it. It came out around the N sixty four in the PlayStation and it did not last.

Speaker 5

Oh I'm sorry to hear that. Anyway, we all are, we.

Speaker 1

All are, We all are. It's a tragedy that rins at me to this day, like the death of my grandfather. So Alfred is a founding member of this group, but he's not like the singular driving force behind it. When I say founding, there's like a bunch of guys who get together to do this thing, and it kind of it's going to pretty quickly take a back seat for him because he's his career gets started, and he's just

got a lot of other shit on his mind. Wait, you have a question, Sure, what does this guy look like?

Speaker 5

Uh?

Speaker 1

Well, you can pull him up in a yeah, I mean, I'll have Sophie pull up a picture of him. Obviously, most of them are going to be when he's older, because people didn't have as many photos of them when they were super young.

Speaker 5

Eighteen sixty five.

Speaker 1

Yeah, he's born in sixty This is we're now when like the eighteen eighties.

Speaker 2

You're talking about you're talking about Alfred.

Speaker 1

Yeah, boy, Alfie, you're gonna it's this is like the eighteen eighties right now.

Speaker 5

Yeah, I mean in fairness nineties. It's the same.

Speaker 2

So I guess no, no, no, no no, the picture is worth looking at it.

Speaker 5

Vice.

Speaker 4

Oh yeah, the picture okay, you got I just like forgive me, I just I need a visual here.

Speaker 1

The picture's worth a thousand words and most of them are going to be Wow, that is a German ass man.

Speaker 2

The hair is fun, the uh sash is fun.

Speaker 5

Okay, i'll describe it. Here we go.

Speaker 1

Yeah, there's.

Speaker 5

Oh my god.

Speaker 3

Okay.

Speaker 4

Yeah, Like he looks like dudes in in on my side of town in Los Angeles located.

Speaker 1

He's got that like Bismarck's style mustage.

Speaker 7

It's the way that I know exactly what neighborhood you live. Yeah, oh yeah, let's not dox me, but no, you know, I'll say this is what I'll say.

Speaker 4

His his his his mustache is shaped like squidward from SpongeBob's legs.

Speaker 5

Yes, and that's exactly it, Yes, and it's white.

Speaker 4

And his glasses are perfectly round there, Harry Potter glasses.

Speaker 1

Honestly, he's got he's got squidward legs as a mustage. Squidwards legs is a mustache, like perfectly round, uh, Harry Potter glasses and his haircut. If you've seen the movie Falling Down, he's got like an old man heightened tight like it's a remarkable combination of things. And like, by this point, this is a picture him when he's older. You had money for a barber. You were one of the richest men on the planet.

Speaker 5

What is no, this was super on purpose?

Speaker 1

That does really, that does get us back to the Elon must comparisons, because it's like, wow, neither of you motherfuckers know how to get a haircut, Jesus Christ, I say, looking the way I do today. But Jesus Christ, you a great Robert.

Speaker 5

Although similar to Elon and Alfie, the hairline, the hairlines impressed, I mean.

Speaker 1

And he did not have the ability to have a turkish man's hair transplanted onto his scalp. Yes, that is not a turkish man's hair. That's all Hugenberg.

Speaker 4

Totally, which was honestly amazing, especially considering that he was such a bad person.

Speaker 5

You would think, like, no, that would have affected.

Speaker 1

Some terrible people are graced with an incredible head of hair like Fabio. Fabio was a bad person, I'm just consulting him from no.

Speaker 2

Who knows.

Speaker 1

Given his humble beginnings, Hugenberg started his career as an entry level civil servant, so he has no nepotism to benefit from. Right, he's not getting like a head start. He's going to get ahead because he's good. He becomes a member, he gets hired for the Prussian Settlement Commission in Posen, which again is Prussia had conquered this chunk of Poland and they have a commission to help settle it, and he is helping to manage that from eighteen ninety

four to eighteen ninety nine. This gives him a degree of influence in the German States. Attempts to reform some

land use policies that were essentially holdovers from the medieval era. Right, they've got these kind of medieval policies on, like the aristocracy owning land that slow down colonizing it because a lot of land is just meant to be like where that where this did duke or whatever hunts And that's great if you're a duke, and it's actually probably pretty good from like a wildlife conservation aspect, but it's really bad from a farming you know. And Germany's whole thing

is we don't have enough food. We can't make enough food to not die on our owns, right and this is constantly on our minds. So again Posen is like it's an eternal colony within Germany. Most of the population's Polish, but there's this small number of German farmers whose expansion was desired by the government. However, said expansion is stemied by the fact that many Polish people already had claim

to the land. Hugenberg suggested ways to uproot them, but ultimately quit his job when the government refused to revise its inadequate policy towards the Poles. And again that inadequate policy is you're letting them live in their own homes, right like that, that's the issue that he has with Poland. You know what I just saw, just like because.

Speaker 4

The obviously like the use of euphemism within the Nazi regime and their campaigning is well studied and documented.

Speaker 5

But I will never get over it. And if this guy Alfhie had his roots in creative writing, I bet he was a master of you.

Speaker 1

Yes, yeah, yeah. Now this is Hugenberg's first foray into entrepreneurship. As soon as he quits, you know, this government job because it's not working fast enough, and he immediately really reveals himself to have a head for this kind of work.

He creates a series of land co ops that allow so he goes into business independently, and he starts going to these different groups of farmers who are trying to colonize to what this territory that is like the center of modern Poland, and he starts putting them in together and making co ops, right, And the purpose of this is because each of these independently these small German farmers have no economic power and so kind of keep getting

fucked over. And he forms them into co ops so that they can basically collectively set prices and bargain for better prices, right, like the very modern thing you know that he's doing here, And it works like this makes all of these farms much more successful, and it helps stimulate the growth of like more independent like more German settlers,

like farming in this area. The project is successful enough that in nineteen oh four he gets hired back to the civil service in a significantly better position, right, Special Advisor for Economic Development to the East. So he's just kind of like a guy stuck in the cogs of the machine. He bounces. He has this incredibly successful co op thing for all these farmers, and it does well enough that now he's the special advisor for all economic development in the East.

Speaker 3

Now.

Speaker 1

One of the thing that's going on in the East is I had insinuated earlier, is in Prussia, you've got all these younkers, right, who are these They're like the nobility, right, And these guys are also a lot of like the fighting nobility, because like Prussians are warriors, that's what you do if you're a Prussian younger. But they also have these vast family estates, often with thousands of acres of land, and they're just kind of fucking around on them, right,

you know. They're the aristocracy does that every where they can, And so Hugenberg doesn't want things to work that way. He wants this land to be freed up, if it's not being farmed, for more farmers to buy it. Now, like all conservative Germans, and Alfred is very conservative. His interest is in autarchy, right. He wants the state to be able to produce all of its own necessities. You know, we just had the tariffs come down yesterday. It's kind

of the same idea, right. Conservatives never quite get over this, what if we didn't need anyone else? And it's like, I don't know, man, do you like coume quats because that's kind of critical that shays.

Speaker 5

Yeah, yeah, fuck Jesus.

Speaker 1

It's a little more understandable in this period as a German because they're always aware of like, okay, well we've got Russia on one side and they don't always like us, and we got France on the other and they don't always like us, and then the English control the seas, so we're really easy to starve. You know, it would be great if we could grow enough food to not starve. So Hugenberg set to work applying his three principles to the problem of all these giant, useless estates going unmanaged.

Being a practical guy, he came up with what seemed like a simple solution, and he published a book about his work with the farming co ops, im Posen, and how similar tactics could be used to encourage the rapid accumulation and deployment of capital to properly settle the East. Alfred insisted that the state's role in all of this was not to stick with the traditional younger view of property and instead to use its power to encourage competition.

He wanted them to pass laws to confiscate large unproductive estates and resettle them with small farmers who would form co ops. I won't give Hugginberg credit for a lot, but this probably would have worked. And I based this on the fact that basically one hundred percent of the time shit like this got tried and peasants were given access to large areas of raw land to split up and manage in common, productivity increased, and it especially increased over the old way of quote letting some rich guy

use it as a private park. Right, It's just more effective in a farm in terms of yield. However, the rich guys that Hugenberg wants to dispossess are the rich guys, right. These are the people running things because the Prussians are kind of the most powerful group within Imperial Germany, and they don't like that Hugenberg wants to take their shit. I'm going to quote from Leopold's book here. Confronted with strong opposition from youngers and others opposed to this proposal,

state officials hesitated in their advocacy of this legislation. Hugenberg scorned their pedantic political conscience and again left the civil service. So he's like, fuck you guys, I'm going home. You know, I'm gonna go do my own thing now. I tried working through the government. It's useless. Word, yes, you know, it's not useless. You know what should be the government, the products and services that support this podcast. They should run the country.

Speaker 8

Why not they?

Speaker 1

Could they be worse? Could it be worse?

Speaker 5

Maybe?

Speaker 1

Ah, and we're back. I don't know. I think Chumba Casino would be a good overlord. It seems ethical casinos are always nice. Uh, we could all smoke indoors, you know, that's how casinos were a vibe. That is a vibe. So he bounces gets out of government again, and his dream is to make East Prussia not a backwater, right, Like, that's kind of what he wants in this period of time. But he's been he's been stymied and Alfred. He's not an introspective soul, no, nor is he to kind of

waste his energy being disappointed. So he right away gets a job on the board of directors for a bank and Frankfort that serves several mining concerns, and not just mining, but companies like generally in the metal business, so suppliers and producers of raw materials. And his job, his role here is reorganizing and rearranging things to enhance the profitability

of everyone in this industry. Right Basically, all of the owners of these different minds and sort of like mineral concerns and whatnot are all putting a chunk of their money in like a common pile to be used in Hugenberg is managing it. He's an early hedge fund manager. Right, wait, you know it's not that bad, so, but that's what he's doing.

Speaker 4

I am so dumbfounded by this guy's disposition. Like he wanted to be a creative writer.

Speaker 5

I'm still stuck on that, and then he suppressed it.

Speaker 1

To become someone hedge funds.

Speaker 4

You said, yeah, in hedge funds. I'm just like, what, how does that? How does that make sense? Like, is he truly like a renaissance man and so adaptable or was he never truly an artist to begin with? And he just kind of like told himself he was suppressing his artistic tendencies, but really he was meant for this.

Speaker 1

He writes several books. I don't know if I'd say he was meant to be a creative writer, but I think the thing is more he is utterly obsessed in the way that poor kids sometimes wind up being. If I am not going, I am owned to be somebody, right, yeah, yeah, And this is how you'd.

Speaker 5

Be an opportunist. However, whatever path will lead me.

Speaker 1

Become hell or highwater, I will fucking be somebody, right. That's this dude. So his role in this kind of early hedge fund ish position is to, like, yeah, enhance profitability, and he does. He does well enough that he gets hired on next to run a bank, like a whole banking firm, so like basically a network of banks that's

run by a prosperous Jewish family. The Mertens now Huggenberg is a raging anti Semite, as is the German General League, which he's still a member of, which by this point has changed its name to the much catchier Pan German League, and they'd only doubled down on the anti Semitism since then. But this doesn't seem to stop him from being willing to work for this rich family. The Mertens. Now the League at this point, it's not a mass organization, nor does it want to be one. It's got maybe a

few thousand members at this point. It's going to top out at thirty eight thousand people, which is very small for one of these. Again, by the time by the Nazia, there's going to eventually be a couple million Brown Shirts, right, So this is not a huge organization, but members of them are professional people, often with a lot of money and influence. So the Pan German League is hugely influential culturally. It punches above its weight class, right because the members

of it are guys like Hugenberg. They're social climbers, or they're already rich and influential. Now, I quoted from that historian Barry Jackish a little earlier, and those quotes were from a book he wrote on the Pan German League titled The Pan German League and Radical Nationalist Politics in inter War Germany, which is a very accurate title, but not very clickable. You know, seven things you didn't know

about German National. There's a lot of better ways to title it, Barry, I'm just saying, sorry.

Speaker 5

The BuzzFeed era hadn't hit yet.

Speaker 3

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1

So here's it's a very good book. And here's how Barry describes the league's membership. The Pan German League drew the vast majority of its members from the social strata identified by the German terms bildung un Besitz, or the propertied and educated middle class. And this is where we get to a very important and very German prerequisite for the rise of the nazis one that doesn't get discussed a lot. We love to talk about and I do

it on this show. The things that graph exactly to shit that's been happening in the US when we talk about the fall of Vymar and the rise of German fascism, because there are a lot of similarities, but there's a lot of differences too, which is I think are important emphasized now because I think some people get like, oh my god, we've done all these other things that are similar to Vymar, We're destined to do this. We're not right. It can go different for us. And part of why

it's because like it is a very different culture. We're not Germany at any point.

Speaker 4

Wait, I actually have two questions about that. Well, no, I have a I have a comment and a question. So bringing it to colts, people do the same thing making comparisons between Donald Trump and Jim Jones, and we loved and including myself like you, I love, I love to point out rhetorical similarities the way that they weapon I thinkna, yes, but there are extremely noteworthy differences that

are equally important to emphasize. And Jonestown was unprecedented and since unreplicated thing, and Jim Jones read Nietzsche and Donald Trump.

Speaker 1

I mean it doesn't read anything one thing. But the Jonestown story has a courageous US congressman risking his life and for his constituents.

Speaker 5

Again, no, honestly, that's a great point.

Speaker 4

But there there there was there was some drama with a plane, and that's that's really happened. There were a lot of Yeah, but my question related to this somewhat. And this is a really basic question. So maybe this will sound like kindergarten level, but like I don't really understand and have never really understood how German nationalism among these guys like.

Speaker 5

Hitler and Alfie. How was it so raging? Like, I don't I don't find that. I mean, I know Trump, but Trump doesn't have American nationalism.

Speaker 1

I find for one thing. I mean, Trump definitely uses American nationalism.

Speaker 5

He uses it, yes, but I don't think he feels it.

Speaker 2

In his soul.

Speaker 1

Yeah, this is one of those things to an extent you simply can't understand because nationalism is a new idea then, right, The idea of a nation state and the way we conceive of it is fairly new. And also the idea of just like being being the idea that like I'm a Serb and so I should have a certain right. People haven't always thought that way, right, Like, the these are kind of new, and especially the idea again, they had to really it took a lot to convince all

these different Germanic states that you're all Germans. There's a storyman of telling a little bit that I think will make some of this make a little bit more sense.

Speaker 4

Yeah, No, that's already helpful, because, like a novelty, when something is brand new, you like don't really know what it means yet, because we don't have the context in the retrospect. But yeah, sexy, it's exciting. It's like AI stuff now like in seventy years.

Speaker 1

Well, nationalism is the AI of the of the century. Yes, totally. I mean there's an extent to which, like, at least in terms of how excited people are by the idea that that's not totally wrong.

Speaker 5

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1

Now, when we talk about like why did Germany go in the direction it did, this is really where the seeds of a lot of the things that that you know culminate in the thirties are being planted. And a lot of leftists like to argue that fast evolves out of capitalism, you know, the bourgeoisie and especially conservatives in the BOURGEOISI inevitably turned fascist once their material interests are threatened.

Now we'll leave out now talk about well how accurate that is a depiction of what's happening in the United States right now, But seeing things that simplistically misses some very important aspects of how Nazism got going in Germany. Because Nazism is a radical political movement. Nazis don't like conservatives. In fact, they kill a lot of them, right that they don't target them the way they do the left

in any way. But they are not a conservative movement and they don't see themselves as conservatives, and they're not really very keen on capitalists either, although a lot of capitalists eventually do support them out of self interest. I'm saying this because Hugenberg is never a Nazi in the ideological sense of the word. He is a monarchist and

he is a social and economic conservative. And the Pandramanic League, while there's things in it you can see as like, oh, I see how Nazism arrived from this, it's more that the soil is the same, right, and so the plants have some similar characteristics that are coming up. The Pan German League is not going after the Nazis are initially going after like the poor and downtrodden, right, those are Hitler's like earliest recruits and like veterans, disaffected veterans. That's

not who the Pan Germanic League is going after. It is laser targeted at the group of people that Leopold identifies as Buildung and Besitz. And there's another term for that group, and that term is Buildung's burgertam right, and that is crudely we might say the upper middle class,

it means literally the cultivated bourgeoisie. In his book The Fateful Alliance, historian Hermann Beck writes Germany owed its reputation and scholarship, administration, and technical expertise to this numerically small but socially influential, university trained elite. The buildungs Burgertum was a uniquely German phenomena on that originated as a distinct social class in the second half of the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries. And these are the people who are

who run things. They're not the people who are in charge of things, right, that's generally the nobility. They are the people who are being delegated the task of actually making shit happen, right, because they have the educations. And this is a class that in the earliest period, including the where we're up to the eighteen nineties, is a progressive and liberal class. That's going to change. They're going to become extremely conservative in the nineteen hundreds, but they're

not initially. And in fact, the first man to posit what we would consider a modern view of what homosexuality is, and the first gay man to come out publicly is a member of the Buildings Burger TomEE in eighteen sixty seven, the first modern like guy both too, and when I say a modern understanding of homosexuality, this guy, Karl Ulrichs comes to a conclusion that like, oh, homosexuality logically is something I'm born as. Right, this isn't a choice. It was viewed as both a choice and as like a

deviant thing. Right, Carl convinces himself like, no, no, no, this is like a natural thing. And as a result, we are a discriminated underclass and the laws need to change.

And he comes out in public in eighteen sixty seven at a town meeting, and so he's like he's simultaneously like introducing everyone at the meeting to the concept of homosexuality and also saying, and I am one, which is wildly brave, Like he is this jam rocks Well, he's a member of the Buildings Burgertum, as is Alha Shugenberg and okay, cool in terms of like seeing how this

gets how things shift. Nationalism in the late eighteen hundreds is a progressive liberal ideology right in part because of what it means about sort of how pre existing elites needed to not have the kind of power that they used to have. And Carl Ulrichs is a national German nationalist, you know, previous to the existence of Germany. And normally

people see that they're like, okay, well that's right wing. No, no, no, he is a German nationalist because the state, the German state he is in, homosexual sex sodomy is legal, but in Prussia it's illegal, and Prussia is pushing to dominate all these other states. And so Rix becomes a German nationalist because he's like, then we we other Germans will be strong enough to force the Prussians to stop being

big ated against gay people. So when we talk about German nationalism, this is not always like a right wing, regressive ideology. There's a and in Hugenberg's earliest days there's a lot of very progressive aspects to it.

Speaker 4

It is utterly fascinating that like living through present political times, we think like, oh, you know this label that describes this particular group of thinkers, that that correlation will be perennial, like that will always mean that, but you know, it's like no, but no, it can flip changes.

Speaker 1

The Republican Party used to be a very different thing. That's eighteen sixty five or so. So from the beginning, this uniquely German class, the buildings Burgertum, was characterized by a close relationship to the state, since its strongest component came from the upper echelons of state bureaucracies and various German states. In addition to the people who are kind of like running the government, there's also a lot of professors. University professors are generally of this class, as well as

a lot of prominent lawyers. Right. And the origins of this entire social class actually traced back to a guy named Wilhelm von Humboldt. Humboldt was an educational reformer in the early eighteen hundreds who remakes the whole Prussian education system and he is a big believer in the power of the individual to reach their full potential or buildung

through education. Right, among other innovations, he codifies the idea of a national school system for kind of the first time in the West that starts with primary school and then secondary school and then university education. Everyone adopts this. The foundations of our education system, such as it is, are traced directly back to Humboldt and his reform of

the Prussian system. Right. He is basically the father of the concept of universal mandatory education, which is paid for by the state, and it's one of those there's a lot of modern day criticisms of the Prussian system. People will argue it only exists to provide soldiers, right, and so the schools just trying to make you into a good soldier for capitalism, and like, there's not one hundred

percent wrong. These were Prussians, so that was a big part of why they wanted to educate people so they'd be useful for the state. But Humbold's also a very progressive guy for his time, and it would not be fair to categorize him as like some sort of like weirdo fascist, you know, because that's just not what's going on at this point in time. He was not trying

to make students into little robots. His goal was to was his citizenry who was capable of reasoning, thinking outside of the box, and actively learning so is to better serve the state. But he wasn't trying to like lock

people into a little box. And his reforms work well enough that by the time Alfred Hugenberg is getting his start, Germany has the best universities on the planet, and it is universally agreed the best doctors in scientists are German, right, And it's because they start having a modern university system between everyone else in the early nineteen hundreds. Germany is the font of learning in the West, and very much is seen as that way, especially in the medical realm.

And this is that's a huge part of this class that Hugenberg is a part of the buildings burgertomy. These are they're characterized by their belief that education makes people better. And because we're educated, we're better.

Speaker 5

Right, better, like morally better, yes, or better?

Speaker 1

Yes, very much that way too. Yes, So you can see where the problems start to arise. Right, there's this good thing of like they're like, we need to have an expansive and well funded education system. Great, and also we're better than the rest of you.

Speaker 5

Yeah, we're like more valid valuables.

Speaker 1

That's probably going to go in a bad direction. So as you're starting to see there's some danger in having a class like this, right, and what starts with a well deserved sense of accomplishment in their own system morphs into this overall sense of superiority. Right, if the world is copying the German education system, which it is. Doesn't it make sense that Germans should rule more of the world, right, That's really a lot of how the thinking as this

progressive liberal class becomes more conservative. That's part of what they're thinking now. Yeah, so you know that's going to be a problem. It's this kind of thing that like, by the end of the eighteen seventies they've stopped really being as liberal, and by the eighteen nineties their advocates of imperialism and they are aggressive nationalists. It's no longer oh Rick's very reasonably progressive nationalism. It is a what if we just took everything kind of nationalism? Right?

Speaker 2

Oh my god.

Speaker 1

So by early in nineteen oh nine, Hugenberg has made a name for himself as a great businessman and financier and an innovative thinker in the field of imperialism. He gets scouted by the son of one of our old bastards, a guy named Gustav Krupp, and Gustav is the inheritor of the Krupp weapons dynasty. These are the guys who

had made Germany possible. Because Germany comes into being in eighteen seventy when they beat the French in a war, and they beat the French because Napoleon the Third is still using brass cannons that are basically identical to the ones the first Napoleon had used, and Friedrich Krupp his people figured out how to make modern steel artillery that is just so much better at killing men.

Speaker 5

Oh my god, wait was that guy was he? Was he an art collector?

Speaker 1

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean there were very rich families, so yeah, they bought a lot of art.

Speaker 5

I think I went to an art exhibit in Zurich that was exhibiting.

Speaker 4

He probably did art collection and like trying to reckon with how those pieces were acquired.

Speaker 5

It was really interesting.

Speaker 1

The Crups, I mean, they're like Bezos level of wealthy for the time, right, because they are selling the whole world guns, right, they make the best ones. Now, Krupp is a member of the aristocracy, right, but he's looking for he is an understanding of like his limitations financially, and so he's scouting for a man of quote, really superior intelligence to become the new chairman of the board of directors for Krupp and Hugenberg. He immediately recognizes as

a genius and he gives him the job. Right, So Hugenberg is kind of the CEO of Krupp Arms, of the biggest gun company in the world right ever existed up to this point and for more. He is going to be the guy running a lot of Technically, he's primarily doing the financial decisions for krup so he's not designing guns. But he is like the headman at Krupp for the decade up to leading up to World War One, right,

Oh my god. And what's what Krupp is doing in this period is pushing the Kaiser to build the machine of death that is the German mobilization schedule, right. And part of what they're doing is Crupp is going around and they're they're going to one country and being like, hey, we'll sell you these guns. You rarely got to modernize. Your guns are a generation or two behind your neighbor, and like they're getting armed, so why don't you get armed?

And then once they arm that country, they'll go to another and be like, hey, your neighbor just bought a bunch of You really got to get some new guns, right, And this keeps everybody's anxiety.

Speaker 5

Yeah, it's just like I just sold your neighbor a stack of Bibles.

Speaker 1

But this works so well, and heerg is, you know, on the finance side of things that like dividends expand from eighteen eight to fourteen percent from nineteen oh nine to nineteen thirteen, like that's and that's a big deal. Krupp is making so much fucking money. And because Alfred

is running shit, he becomes spectacularly wealthy. And the balance guy, I think hundreds of millions of dollars by the standards of his time, right, that's that's probably that's about where he is in terms of like our modern concept of things. He's not like a billionaire yet, but hundreds of millions now, despite the fact that he is making Gustav Krupp so much fucking money, the Krupts are again aristocracy, and Hugenberg, despite his wealth, is just a burger, right, He's he's

not like a he's a common man, you know. He comes from like the nicer part of the common class. But Gustav doesn't really mean money. He's not going to hang with him, right, As biographer Leopold writes, though everyone was impressed with his extraordinary intelligence and obvious ability, there is no indication that Hugenberg during his ten years stay at Krups ever developed anything more than a formal relationship

with his employer. The patrician aloofness of the securely established Crups contrasted sharply with a dogged determination to succeed which characterized Hugenberg. Indeed, Hugenberg seemed temple bad hang. He's a bad hang. Indeed, Hugenberg seemed typical of that class of general directors which George Bernard described as being driven by an inferiority complex because they know they are dependent and in the final analysis, are as disposable as any other employee.

Lack of security made such a director continually harder and more uncompromising than the owner himself, Possibly as a psychological compensation, Hugenberg in these years emphasized the inflexibility, stubbornness, and self righteousness which would characterize his political career. So he knows you don't need me, you can throw me away if I stop making you money, and that drives him to be the son of a bitchiest of the sons of bitches in business in this period.

Speaker 5

And my god, just you know this is maybe this is gonna sound like a fucked up thing.

Speaker 2

To say, but like.

Speaker 5

Maybe he needed more love, you know, like did his parents?

Speaker 2

Yeah, you know who.

Speaker 5

Away?

Speaker 1

I mean, okay, maybe later. Not a big personal life guy, you know.

Speaker 5

Yeah, isn't it you know? Yeah, it's just this fucking.

Speaker 1

Loly scrooge plays by Michael.

Speaker 5

Yes, yikes.

Speaker 4

He just you know, he needed one of those really really intensive like parent child therapy sessions where like, you know, a teenage boy is like forced to sit on his mom's lap and make eye contact with her for like two hours.

Speaker 1

Well you know, the downside is that they do have psychotherapy by then. But if he had gone to it at this point, he would have just been given a shipload of cocaine by Freud, Like, which is okay, this guy's a finance bro that is not gonna make shit better.

Speaker 4

No, no, no, no, he needs he should have fast forward to the Kenmine Kenmine time right right.

Speaker 1

That would have fixed him. Our ketamine billionaires are in such good health.

Speaker 5

Oh yeah, wait, whoa do you think do you think that Alfie was on coke?

Speaker 1

I mean, it's it was. He probably took it at some point just because it was in a lot of medications, like a lot of patent medications. There's a bunch of different shit you would be given for, like a flu that might have had some coke or some heroin in it.

Speaker 4

Right, So maybe that is a parallel again between him and Elon there. They could be both medicated rob it.

Speaker 1

Could be both medicaid. No way to know. I Alfred is very insecure because of his position, and he takes this insecurity out on his workers, by which I mean Krupp workers. He despised socialism and he found himself violently opposed to anything that smelled slightly of democracy, by which I mean unions. Alfred talked a lot about wanting to make unions obsolete. He's basical. He's one of these guys who's like, well, I'm just going to treat employees so well,

they'll become members of the petite bourgeoisie. I'm going to give them stock in the company. Then why would they want to be unions. They'll be shareholders, right, and they'll be able to buy their own homes. And what he's suggesting here, this is what happens in the US post war to create the most prosperous society in history. So like within the capitalists new US, this is an idea that does work. It's going to work in the US not long after this. But Hugenberg is just bullshitting. He

has no interest in doing any of this. As Leopold notes, quote, working and living conditions did not change much during Hugenberg's tenure. He ultimately did find himself forced to work with what he called yellow unions, which are trade unions that aren't allowed to strike. Right, So he'll work with these guys

because they don't actually have any teeth. But as a rule, he found even that kind of union disgusting, and he starts pushing internal propaganda within Krupp that depicted management and employees, in Leopold's words, quote, not antithetical classes, but common producers of shared wealth. You know, you and Krupp, the plutocrat who owns all of this money. By pushing everyone towards World War one, you're really the same, you know. That's like,

that's the propaganda. He's not good at propaganda at this stage, now, got it. Yeah, And again, the wealth's not actually being shared. And this is something Alfred and his fellow industrialists would acknowledge cheerfully. They don't think you should share wealth. They

are social Darwinists. They believe the poor and working class can only be trusted with a certain amount of money, and if they have any more than that, they'll fritter it away on harmful nonsense because they're just not smart enough to reinvest it into the German arms industry, right, which is obviously what a smart man does with his money. By nineteen twelve, Hugenberg was one of the most prominent men in the entire Reich. He was awarded the Red

Order of the Eagle by the Kaiser. Now, this is one of dozens of made up awards that the Kaiser would give different German over the years in order to like because you know, you need to have a bunch of fake awards to hand each other. So everybody can wear a uniform that looks fancy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's worth it.

Speaker 4

The Nexium sash, it's the sash, Yes of Germany at the stack yes, and.

Speaker 1

Alfred's Red Order medal is third class with a bow. I don't know what that.

Speaker 5

Means, Leopold, that sounds dumb.

Speaker 1

Yeah. At the ceremonies, the Chairman of the Board delivered a masterful speech criticizing the attempt to use universal male suffrage as a means of imposing class rule and the Reich. He insisted that neither voting nor legislation would advance the workers, but only a very much richer, very much greater, and very much more powerful Germany would be continue to ensure

continued benefits for the industrial proletariat. And so in the speech he's saying, the only thing that can make the poor the working class more comfortable is if we steal everything from the rest of the world. That's your only hope. Guys, dam stuff. Speaking of stealing everything from the rest of the world, Sophie, can we should we show them our sponsors.

Speaker 2

I don't think we're stealing things from the rest of the world.

Speaker 1

You never know, I steal shit sometimes, Sophie.

Speaker 2

Like Cable allegedly, allegedly.

Speaker 1

Allegedly allegedly were we sure as hell are yes? So, now, as I said, during this whole period, one things that's going on is this cycle where crupples send their arms merchants abroad and say, hey, your neighbor just bought all these great cannons or you know, this machine gun and they're thinking of using it, so why don't you get some more guns? And one of the things this cycle of upgrades does. It's great for crup's bottom line and

other weapons manufacturers. They're all taking part in this. This

is not just crupt Germany. It's not just responsible for the preconditions of World War One, obviously, But one thing that this cycle that these arms manufacturers all responsible for means is that every European leader is constantly thinking, Okay, right now, we've got better artillery in French, but their machine guns are a little better, and in two years they're going to have new artillery, so maybe we need to go to war now if we're gonna have a

chance of beating them, right, Like, everyone's always thinking.

Speaker 5

How like manufactured escalation?

Speaker 1

Legal like this because these people own the government, run the government to a big extent.

Speaker 5

Yeah, and it's fucked up.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's great. So Hugenberg profits from this process, and he may have been more directly involved than even just like running the finances and benefiting it, because he winds up involved in a huge scandal right in late nineteen twelve to early nineteen thirteen. He's implicated significantly in what's called the corn Volzer affair. Now I'm going to quote from an article by Lothar Burchart from the nineteen eighty eight German Yearbook on Business History to describe the Cornsvolner affair.

A Krup employee was found guilty of bribing army and Navy officers. This proved not only to the German but also to the foreign skeptics that they were right to believe that the company would stop at nothing in pursuit of its interests. In nineteen oh five, George Bernard Shaw had already, in his play Missed Major Barbara, not been

sparing with his insinuations. In nineteen thirteen, even the serious American journal The Iron Age wrote, following the facts revealed during the cornwallser affair, that Krupp was obviously recently prepared to go to any links to agitate a war, even before the First World War had really started. HG. Wells had already decided who was the real culprit in the center of this disaster, which had finally become a world catastrophe. Is Kruppism the dirty, violent trade with the tools of death.

It was shortly afterwards that the often repeated but never conclusively proved allegation arose that the then company boss, Gustav Kropp Vi Boland Unhalbach had been informed by the Kaiser months in advance of the imminent war, and Alfred is directly implicated in this bribery of army and naval officers as like, because he's the manager of this guy, and

it's too much to say that we don't know. Again, we don't really know if the Kaiser was literally warned months in advance of the imminent war, because I don't actually think it was planned that way. But that's the rumor going around, right, And it's definitely true that Huggenberg is aware of how tensions are ratcheting up and is using that as a way he is taking advantage of this to make money in a way that makes World

War one more likely. Right, he is implied he has some of the war guilt, right, because of the position that he has. Again, there's plenty of war guilt to go around. The French aren't blameless, the British aren't even blameless,

and fucking the Russian sure is shit aren't blameless. But he's one of the He's one of a small number of men who is directly implicated and creating the conditions of World War One, Right, now, yeah, given his agent wealth, there's no chance Hugenberg or too many of the people he cared about, because he doesn't care about a lot of people, we're going to have to fight and die in this war. In fact, he was very pro the

idea of having a World War one. He's gotten back into the Pan Germanic League at this point, and the league is doing everything they can do to encourage Germany to go to war with its neighbors. If you're you know, if you're old enough to remember the biggest cheerleaders for the war in Iraq, that's that's what these guys are doing, right. They're coming up with justifications for like, why we have to go liberate eastern France. Right, they'll welcome us as liberators Belgian Is naturally.

Speaker 4

Yeah, did you just imply that because Alfie like had no friends and no loved ones and no family members and thus no one to lose in a war, He's just like, yeah, fucking go off.

Speaker 1

He's got nothing to gain from a war. Yeah, so nothing to lose, Yeah, well, nothing to lose. You're right, Sorry I fucked up?

Speaker 5

Yeah yeah, yeah, and sounds like the right he is. Yeah, Ultimately he's doing life wrong.

Speaker 1

But he's doing life very wrong. Yeah, and to make things worse, you know, he's cajoling European powers to arm each other, both in his job as an arms dealer and through this social club that he's helping to run. And then in nineteen twelve something terrible happens is the same year of the cornballser affair. The Social Democrats win big in that year's German elections, and Germany is a

parliament parliamentary monarchy, right, they have a parliament. The Kaisers I'm described as an absolute ruler and he has he can overrule most things, right, but there is a parliament and they don't have zero power. And the Social Democrats win big that year, which scares the shit out of Alfred and people like him. Right, So he starts talking to other rich reactionary nationalists and he tries to sell them on an idea he's had, which is he wants

to create a cartel of the producing classes. In other words, he wants to get all of the rich business owners together and form a union of rich guys to collectively bargain in their own interests. Right, he sees what union is now, Yeah, oh yeah, gold union, Yes, exactly. And this is a thing He's not alone in thinking this. A lot of magnates in the Ruh and the Rure

is Germany's industrial heartland. It's where the guns get made, right, And a lot of the guys who run and own the minds and the companies making raw materials and the companies turning those raw materials into weapons and other stuff, they're all thinking along the same lines. And so in nineteen thirteen he is hired to chair the board of directors for an organization that pools money from mine and

factory owners in the area for profit. And part of the goal here, he's not just like investing it, he is spending it to benefit them. Part of the idea is you will spend a chunk of our money we all give like one percent or whatever, right, and that money accumulates and you spend it to influence the culture, right to put out news and stuff in propaganda that's

positive for us. Hugenberg is going to be running that project, right because these guys, these industrial magnates, have the billionaires of their day, have come to the conclusion that if we can just change the news stories poor people read, poor people will stop trying to get our money.

Speaker 5

You know, like, yeah, wow, Okay. So when you say that he wasn't good at propaganda yet.

Speaker 1

Yet, well, also this is a very musk thing, right, Like we're coming to the key buys Twitter part. Right. So again, Hugenberg is not a skilled propagandist in terms off, he doesn't make propaganda, nor does he like write it. He's not drawing it or anything like that. But he sees the need for propaganda and he's good at hiring people who are good at stuff. So in nineteen fourteen he uses a bunch of this pooled corporate money to form a holding company called Ousland GmbH. A month later,

that company forms a subsidiary named Ousland Azigen. Leopold explains what happened next, which will sound very familiar to those of you who know anything about the Daily Wire. Ouceland Azigen was established to study foreign publications and to coordinate the advertising of heavy industrial firms interested in exports. So he's sending out people to study foreign media propaganda and bring back advice so that they can create news outlets

that will represent the interests of the rich. Right, that's what he's doing. Now, this is initially just an advertising thing, right, Like the idea is and we'll make that way, will make better ad propaganda. But the study of foreign ads expands to a general study of foreign propaganda, and this kind of conclusion starts to develop that, like, you know what, ads, that's not the best way to propagandize people. Journalism is

the best way to propagandize people. News articles are the best way to propagandize people.

Speaker 5

Right, spon con that doesn't look like spon con.

Speaker 1

Yes, And so they're working This is what they start working on when in August of nineteen fourteen, the shooting starts on the Western Front, and we will talk about that what happens later and how Alfred Hugenberg finally gets in bed with zen Nazis in Part two. How are you feeling, Amanda.

Speaker 5

I feel amazing. I feel really glad that I it's a normal way to.

Speaker 1

Feel when you talk about Alfred Hugenberg. Yes, well, I'm America's sweetheart.

Speaker 5

Yeah exactly. I well kind of because I I feel whenever I hear stories like this, I feel like, oh wow, I'm not the worst person in history.

Speaker 1

No, no, no, you're You're a better person than Alfred Hugenberg. A low bar Russell Brand might be a better person than Alfred Hugenberg and he just got some pretty serious cris.

Speaker 5

Yeah, yeah, that's a fun game. But you know who's a worst person.

Speaker 1

I'll say this, very few historians blame Russ Russell Brand for the outbreak of World War One. Almost never, you know, almost almost No. Honestly, would be super impressive if he'd managed that somehow.

Speaker 4

I would love to talk to a historian who's like open to discussing a working theory that Russell Brand has something.

Speaker 1

To do with, just like any of a photo of him in the background in Sarah Jevo as the Archduke drives past.

Speaker 4

Oh my god, yeah, Russell he does have sort of a time travelers styling to him.

Speaker 5

It is one of these could have been any era at all.

Speaker 1

There's some guys like Matt Damon. You put Matt Damon in like a historical movie from one hundred and twenty years ago. I'm sorry, Matt Damon has as people have said, Matt Damon has a face that knows what a smartphone is, right, like you just can't get so true. But yeah, Russell Brand, if I saw him in a picture of from like eighteen forty eight, I'd be.

Speaker 2

Like, no, that's good bad.

Speaker 5

Yeah, you might belong there. Yeah, oh my god, that's so funny.

Speaker 1

With sex crimes there. But he might belong there for sure.

Speaker 4

Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean he belongs there as much as anywhere, which right nowhere. But do you ever see people I r L in twenty twenty five You're like, whoa you do you have a face that looks like an old cepia toned like faded print from the late nineteenth century?

Speaker 5

Because I do sometimes.

Speaker 1

Yeah, No, I get that a lot.

Speaker 5

Actually yourself, you're like every time A look in the mirror.

Speaker 1

Yeah, all right, well, Amanda, you got any pluggables before we roll out a part one?

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 4

If if people like hearing about cults in a cheeky tone or really just cult like organizations from the modern day site geist and want to participate in determining whether or not they are real cults, they can listen to my podcast sounds like a cult about the modern day cults we all follow, from Disney Adults to Elon Musk.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 5

So yeah, and we have an episode coming out with you about Mark Zuckerberg. So that's going to be exciting. Yeah, and then Cultish. My book Cultish is coming out in paperback in June.

Speaker 1

Excellent well, check out Coldish, check out everything Amanda is involved with, and check out prtoon coming in like a day.

Speaker 3

Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

Speaker 5

You get your podcasts.

Speaker 3

Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday and Friday.

Speaker 4

Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash at Behind the Bastards

Transcript source: Provided by creator in RSS feed: download file