It Could Happen Here Weekly

Martin JB. Smooth, and Terrell Owens. Tune in to learn how to turn liabilities into assets and make your money moved by subscribe to The Money Moves Podcast powered by Greenland on the I Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts, and make sure you leave a review. Whence the last time you took a time out? I'm Ev Rodsky, author of the New York Times bestseller fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space, activists on the gender

division of labor, attorney and family mediator. And I'm Dr Addina Roocar, a Harvard physician and medical correspondent with an expertise in the science of stress, resilience, mental health, and Burnout. We're so excited to share our podcast Time Out, a production of I Heart Podcasts and Hello Sunshine, repealing back the layers around why society makes it so easy to guard men's time like it's diamonds and treat women's time

like it's infinite like sand. And so, whether you're partnered with or without children, or in a career where you want more boundaries, this is the place for you, for people of all family structures. So take this time out with us to learn, get inspired, and most importantly, reclaim your time. Listen to Time Out, a fair play podcast on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

can make your own decisions. You crack open a doctor pepper, you know it'll only make you more thirsty in the long run, but you need some liquid in your mouth, and you're saving You're remaining fifteen gallons for a quick shower. The U haul is finally almost packed up. You may be able to make it down to San Francisco in time. Living in Redwood Valley has been nice the last few years. It's a beautiful place. But in August of two the drought became too much. Late last year, California's new far

right governor lifted all water restrictions on farmers. This sparked a new statewide race to use what water was available before it ran out. Lake Mendesino was already low at the beginning of the year, and for the first time in your memory, it is now completely empty. San Francisco isn't doing great either, but it's much better off than where you live. The Russian River Watershed relies almost entirely on rainfall and is isolated from state and federal a loqueducts.

After the governor lifted water restrictions, new almond and pot farms started sucking up groundwater, and by the end of the summer they'd started pumping from the river to feed their thirsty crops. By mid July, your town implemented a twenty five gallon limit per person per day. That's about as much water as you go through during a five minute shower. The first thing you sacrificed was your garden.

Then you stopped flushing after you peed. These tweaks added up, though, and without water, the lifestyle you'd love to just stopped being possible. Your brother in San Francisco offered to let you move in with him. You weren't a fan of the big city, but at least you'd be able to shower again. And so you find yourself sipping an empty soda can and loading up your last few boxes into the U haul. You give your brother a quick call, saying you're all packed up and about to head out.

He sounds worried and mentioned something about his school letting new teachers go do to budget cuts. You can't really afford to think about that. Now, you just need to leave, since you're all sweaty from loading the U haul the last few days. You decided to hop into the shower one last time. Knew it wouldn't last long, but you still seemed surprised when the water turned off after what felt like only two minutes. You quickly dry off and grab some clean clothes from your backpack and throw your

damp towel into the passenger seat of the truck. You say goodbye to your home of ten years and to your old succulent plants, and begin the three hour drive down to San Francisco. Water scarcity is a problem you're probably already familiar with, especially if you live in the Southwest.

California has dealt with particularly brutal droughts over the last twenty years, and the Golden States water problems could be about to get much much worse, because in just a few days, California might find itself helmed by a far right governor with a near religious hatred of water conservation. Electoral politics are not generally a big focus on this show, but what's going on in the state of California could have serious implications for many people, including those outside the

West Coast. The ongoing recall campaign against Governor Gavin Newsom started out in June of publican politicians and activists unhappy with Newsom's handling of the pandemic. Newsom's opposition to President Trump's cracked down on undocumented immigrants also played a role. This is actually the fifth recall attempt against Newsom since he took office in twenty nineteen, but it's the first one to gain traction. It's fueled in part by Newsom's

own hypocrisy and hubris. On November six the recall effort gained court approval for a signature gathering extension, and later that night, Governor Newsom went to a birthday party for a Sacramento lobbyist and friend at French Laundry, a pricing Napa Valley restaurant. Soon after, photo surfaced of Newsom mingling maskless at the packed restaurant. He faced heavy criticism and apologized, but the damage was done. Republicans latched onto this as

an opportunity to finally push the recall effort through. The recall petition, which had only fifty five thousand and five eight signatures on the day of the dinner, had nearly half a million a month after the November sixth incident. California's recall process is probably the least democratic one in the unit it states. Gathering signatures to authorize a recall election is a pretty standard thing, but California has among the lowest signature requirements and states that allow for the

recall of an official. Most states require that the recall campaign must gather signatures equal to of the votes cast in the last election. California requires just twelve percent for executive officials. The li Times notes quote that might have been a high bar in nineteen eleven when the population was scattered across the seven hundred and seventy mile length of the state. But is it too low in one when petitions for ballot measures are gathered and moss by

paid staff and parking lots. And That's not the only questionable aspect of California's recall process. On recall election day, voters will face two questions on the ballot. First, yes or no on whether to recall Governor Gavin Newsom from office. Second, and this one is technically optional, If so, who among the forty six candidates do you want to take his place? The first question is decided by a simple majority, just like other ballot measures, but when it comes to the

second question, the percentage requirements change. The replacement candidate doesn't need more than fifty percent to win, so if more than fifty percent of the voters say yes on the recall question, Governor Newsom must step down. Even if he has more overall support than any other individual challenger on the ballot. The replacement question is determined by who gets the most votes among the challengers on the ballot, which

Newsom cannot be on. So forty nine point nine percent of the voters can back Mr. Newsom, and he can still lose to someone who is supported by only say of the electorate or even a smaller fraction. For other California elections, including special elections triggered by the death or resignation of an official, a candidate cannot win without the support of a majority of voters. If a candidate doesn't win over fifty percent outright, then the top to compete

in a runoff election. Not the case for California's recall process. Organizers of the recall campaign submitted two point one million signatures by the March seventeenth filing deadline. One million, seven hundred nineteen thousand, nine hundred signatures were ultimately determined to have been valid, which was enough to trigger the recall.

The deadline for casting your vote is September. If the recall succeeds, the new governor would be in office for the remainder of Mr. Newsom's term through January second three, and that leaves a lot of time for executive factory, especially considering the new front runner. Far right radio talk show host and frequent Fox guest Larry Elder, has emerged as the likely candidate to replace Newsom in the event

the recall goes through. Elder, who was sixty nine, jumped into the race relatively late in the game during mid July. At that time, it was more of a toss up between Republican candidates Kevin Falconer, a former San Diego mayor, and businessman John Cox, who lost badly to Newsom in the gubernatorial election. Assemblyman Kevin Kylie and former athlete and

media personality Caton Jenner pulled less well. But as Larry Elder entered the race, he almost immediately became the front runner in polls and raised lots of money from small donors, and the three weeks after he announced his campaign he raised nearly four and a half million dollars according to fundraising disclosures. That's more than every other Republican challenger, sans multimillionaire businessman John Cox, who's largely funding his own campaign.

Elder has been a central figurehead of the right wing radio talk show scene since the nineties, but has always been hesitant to run for public office, deeming the state of California ungovernable due to its liberal supermajority, But after talking with his friend and mentor Dennis Praeger of the neo fascist propaganda outlet Praeger You, he figured it might be worth a shot, and has expressed desire to use the emergency powers of the governor to push the state

right words. Elder was born in Los Angeles, but moved to Cleveland to attend law school and opened his own firm in nineteen eighty. Elder's career began as a bit of an accident. He'd been invited on a Cleveland station as a guest. He did so well on air that when the regular host went on vacation the following week, the program director asked Elder to fill in. Soon enough, Elder had his own weekly time slot on the Cleveland station. In the early nineties, a guest host from Los Angeles

list Dennis Prager, visited Cleveland. Elder quickly impressed Praeger with his on air wit and talent, coupled with the uniqueness of a black man openly expressing extreme conservative views. Praeger persuaded his home station KBC in Los Angeles to give Elder a shot. Quoting The l A Times, Elder returned to his hometown in nine four, two years after the civil unrest, following the acquittal of the officers who beat Rodney King and in the midst of the O. J.

Simpson murder case. The program director at rival KFI, David G. Hall, felt KBC made a creative move bringing on this guy from South Central who swung the other way on race. Almost from the beginning, the self proclaimed sage from South Central whipped up a fewer. He mixed soundbites from Representative Maxine Waters with a recording of a barking dog. He said, Blacks exaggerate the significance of racism, while women did the

same in regards to sexism. For nearly four years, Elder has slapped many members of his own race in the face on radio, belittling them as whiners or losers, holding himself up as a model of African American excellence. He's become a darling of white listeners who seemed to almost gush when they telephone him on k ABC Talk Radio. They are astonished to find a black man who not only isn't going to chastise them, but who also often agreed with them, a black man who declared that race

was no longer a significant factor in American society. Elder also doesn't believe that racial profiling exists. This is despite telling The Times editorial Board that police pulled him over between seventy five and a hundred times the first year he had his driver's license. Elder's regressive, provocative content angered mine Angelinos and black citizens of California let a boycott of advertisers on the show. It worked, and by the late nineties the show had begun losing millions in ad revenue.

But thanks to syndication, changing networks, podcasts, and TV appearances, Elder has been able to remain a central figure of the right wing content sphere. He most recently starred in a video series for far right propaganda organization and literal cult, The Epoch Times. According to Elder's campaign, the central recall is as he is focusing on our rampant crime, rising homelessness, out of control costs of living, water shortages, disastrous wildfires,

rolling brown outs, and repressive COVID restrictions. For this show, we'll be focusing on the last three as they relate to the rapidly shifting and hostile climate. For the past thirty years, Elder has been a classic conservative climate denier. He had a whole section of his website devoted to debunking the Gore bull warming myth. Like Al Gore bullshit

warming myth, Yeah, it's a bad pun. In a CNN interview prior to the two thousand eight election, Elder called global warming a false myth, while disparaging and making fun of both John McCain and George W. Bush for discussing global warming is a serious issue. However, more recently, Elder has shifted his rhetoric around the climate. In an interview last month, he expressed belief that some warming is taking place, but by using old soft denialist talking points climate is

always changing. Of course, the climate is changing. The question is what do we do about it? Do we deal with the effects of it, or do we force feed renewables based economy down the throats of people, jacking up the price energy a disproportionate pain for poor people. But of course there's climate change, and the climate is getting warmer and maybe about a degree or so in the last several years, and it will likely continue. He adds,

what I don't believe in is climate change alarmism. He also said that he was not sure whether climate change is making wildfires worse. Quote fires have gotten worse because the failure of this governor to engage in sensible fire suppression. Elder also blames California's rising housing costs on environmental extremists that jack up the cost of housing so that developers have to wait and wait and get sued over and over.

Agains that finally, when the home is built, it's way more expensive than otherwise it would be without these environmental rules and regulations. Despite the slight back pedaling on climate for better media optics, his potential policies on the topic

are just as horrendous as one might assume. In a recent video news conference, Elder declared that he would in the war on oil and gas and the attack on the logging industry, will also reducing regulation on fracking and stopping California's growing efforts to expand when in solar power, which he calls not very efficient. Elder did not mention climate change during his news conference. Water scarcity will be an increasingly severe concern for California in the coming years.

Drought is already a major political talking point among voters and politicians, and it creates another rift between city folk and rural farmers. Farmers are having a harder time growing crops and feel threatened by water rationing. They're frustrated by the thought that the Democrats running cities will always prioritize pumping extra water into population dense areas. Meanwhile, people in cities are concerned they will be forced to cut back on personal water use, as almond farmers suck up tons

of water to feed their droops. Just building more dams and water catchment systems or aquifers may seem like a solution and have done properties. Some of those things might help, but they can't make up for a lack of rainfall and snow melt. Relying on river water has its own problems.

Pulling too much from fresh water that flows through rivers allows for extra salt water to intrude from the bay, and ocean salinity in the water negatively impacts local ecosystems and dirties what is supposed to be a freshwater source. Drought is simultaneously pushing migratory a fish species like chinook salmon and steelhead trout closer to the brink of extinction. Large numbers of fish are dying off because the rivers they rely on as spawning habitats are too warm or

too low. Anxiety around water, droughts, and crops as among the issues driving some people to vote yes on the recall. A poll conducted last July by the Public Policy Institute of California found that residents sited drought and water supply as their top environmental concern, with about twenty calling it their chief concern, which makes it poll well above the

related problems of wildfires, air pollution, and climate change. Republican politicians have been using anxiety around drought to drum up support for the recall by blaming the current situation on Newsom. The original recall petition against Newsom from early warned that the governor quote seeks to impose additional burdens on our state, including rationing our water use. Last April, Governor Newsom did

declare a drought emergency into northwest California counties. The order allowed state officials to restrict the amount of water divert from the Russian River and authorized the relocation of fish

stranded in drying puddles. The local county government asked residents to use no more than fifty gallons per day per person, but Newsom himself hasn't mandated water rationing for individual consumers, though he has asked Californians to voluntarily cut consumption by fifteent and has suggested that statewide restrictions could be on the table if conditions worsen heading into the fall, Newsom in the Department of Water Resources as a whole do

have ideas in mind for tackling this issue. Last year, Newsom authorized an eleven billion dollar water infrastructure project building a single thirty mile tunnel under the Sacramento, San Joaque and River Delta. The project, which has been discussed for years, is being pushed forward in hopes that it will protect the Delta's existing wetland ecosystem and supply enough fresh, clean water to be diverted south for the rest of the state.

But the tunnel concept has faced opposition both locally and from conservation minded folks. Some residents in the Delta regency it is just a water grab to meet the demands of southern California and the ag culture industry, while the needs of those up north are being ignored. Ecologically focused critics say it could still increase salinity in the Delta and result in notable harm for the ecosystem. Newsom has more recently discussed other action and legislation to help mitigate

the continued drought, quoting the San Francisco Chronicle. In July, the governor signed a state budget that includes five point one billion dollars over four years for new water infrastructure and drought preparation projects, including money to repair delivery canals,

help farmers irrigrate crops more efficiently, and start water recycling projects. Still, Newsom's recent actions have done little to quell anger among many farmers who stay the state's failure to plan for another major drought just a few years after it exited the last one has put them on the brink of ruin.

Ernest Buddy Mendez, a lifelong farmer in Fresno County and Republican county supervisor, said he was forced to let hundreds of acres where he used to grow cotton and wheat dry up this year after his allotment of river water was slashed to zero. He's relying on groundwater pumped from wells to keep his grove of almond trees alive. Mendez said he hasn't a aided whom to support as a replacement candidate, and the recall just that he will vote hell yeah to remove newsom. Let's face, A newsom dam

is a four letter word, Mendez said. We haven't done anything in twenty years about building storage. California already does have one of the most extensive damn systems in the country, with nearly fifteen hundred reservoirs. Building new on river dams would cost billions of dollars if such efforts even survive legal challenges, which are all but guaranteed. Amid the struggle to save endangered fish species, there are not many areas left that would make sense or be sustainable to build

a new large reservoir. One other, more cost effective solution could be to store more water collected during wet years and underground aquifers. One of the solutions to this problem is the same as the solution to a number of other climate related problems, which is that we simply have to cut the amount of resources we're consuming. Whether that means reducing our energy use or cutting down on wasteful

water use. You can only build so many dams. The trend of California farmers growing thirstier crops has made an existing problem much worse. Today, the state produces three times as many acres of almonds as it did twenty five

years ago. With California most likely entering a third straight year of disappointing rainfall and snow melt, anxiety around drought and increased severity of water restrictions won't get any better, And if the Lenina weather pattern hits the West Coast, as it's poised to, that would mean the western US

will have a drier and hotter winter than average. Last August, water regulators made an unprecedented move to begin cracking down on water use in the sprawling Sacramento River in San Joaquin River watersheds, ordering for farmers, water districts, and other landowners, including the City of San Francisco, to stop drawing water from the basins of the river or face penalties of up to ten thousand dollars a day. The city has enough water in its reservoirs to meet demand for at

least a couple of years. And stored water is not affected by the state restrictions. Water agencies also can seek an exemption from curtailments of human health or safety or compromised. This does hit rural areas and agriculture the hardest because most cities have alternative supplies and stored water to tap into.

Looking to attract voters, Larry Elder and other Republican challengers to NEWSOM have made it a recurring point to say that farmers should not have to endure such cuts, but they don't really give any perspective solutions to prevent rationing.

When water levels at reservoirs, lakes, and wells are all plummeting, Larry Elder said drought is not inevitable and said he supports building more reservoirs and dams to store runoff, but he has also a voice support for permitting to salinization projects. The salinization devastates ocean life, costs much more than other alternatives, and uses tons of energy. Also, soon it will be

made obsolete by increasing focus on water recycling. Explaining to salonization quickly, ocean water is collected and run through pipes to remove the largest solids, and then pump through reverse osmosis filters to remove salt, while fish and other creatures die upon being sucked in or just from the force

of the water flow. In a report studying it is salonization plant in the early two thousands, it was found that on average over a five year period, nineteen point four billion larva were caught up at intakes and about two point seven million fish, along with marine mammals and sea turtles were killed by intake equipment. For every gallon of drinking water, the salinization leaves another gallon of salty

brine behind. The plants then just mix that with two parts ocean water before pumping it back into the ocean. These measures can negatively impact the environment for this generation and generations to come. This type of resource extract of thinking reflects how we got into the problem in the first place. Battling over water allotments will only get us

so far when dealing with lackluster rainfall. What can help is permaculture programs to help farmers learn ways to irrigate more effectively and cultivate healthier soils that retain water, moving away from water heavy crops like almonds and towards more sustainable and moisture efficient crops must also be done if

we want to stave off the worst effects. Putting Larry Elder in office won't make it rain, but it will put the state at least another year further behind on taking the kind of action necessary to ensure California remains habitable. What's up, guys, I'm a Shot Balau and I am Troy Millions and we are the host of the Earnier Leisure podcast where we break down business models and examine

the latest trends and finance. We hold court and have exclusive interviews with some of the biggest names of business, sport, and entertainment, from DJ Khaled to Mark Cuban, Rick Ross and Shaquill O'Neil. I mean our alumni lists expansive. Listen in as our guests reveal their business models, hardships and triumphs and their respective fields. The knowledge is in death and the questions are always delivered from your standpoint. We

want to know what you want to know. We talked to the legends of business, sports and entertainment about how they got their start and most importantly, how they make their money. Earn your Leisia is a college business class mixed with pop culture. Want to learn about the real estate game, unclears, how the stock market works. We got you. Interested in starting the truck and company or vendor machine business. Not really sure about how taxes or credit work. We

got it all covered. The Earnier Leisure podcast is available now. Listen to Earnier Leisure on the Black Effect Podcast Network, I Heart Radio, app, Apple pod Cast, or wherever you get your podcasts. After thirty years, it's time to return to the halls of West Beverly High and hang out at the peach pit. On the podcast nine O two one OMG joined Jenny Garth and Tori Spelling for a rewatch of the hit series Beverly Hills nine O two

one oh. From the very beginning, we get to tell the fans all of the behind the scenes stories to actually happen, so they know what happened on camera obviously, but we can tell them all the good stuff that happened off camera. Get all the juicy details of every episode that you've been wondering about for decades. As nine O two one oh, super fan and radio host Sissany sits in with Jenny and Tory two reminisce, reflect and relive each moment, from Brandon and Kelly's first kiss to

shouting Donna Martin graduates, you have an amazing memory. You remember everything about the entire ten years that we filmed that show, and you remember absolutely nothing of the ten years that we filmed that show. Listen to nine O two one OMG on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey leath the listeners.

Tig here. Last season on Lethal Lit, you might remember, I came to Hollow Falls on a mission clearing my aunt best name and making sure justice was finally served. But I hadn't counted on a rash of new murders tearing apart the town. My mission put myself and my friends in danger. Though it wasn't all bad, I'm going to be a realty tig I like you. But now all signs point to a new serial killer in Hollow Falls. If this game is just starting, you better believe I'm

gonna win. I'm tig Torres, and this is Lethal Lit. Catch up on season one of the hit murder mystery podcast Lethal Lit. A tig Torre's mystery out now, and then tune in for all new thrills in season two, dropping weekly starting February nine. Subscribe now to never miss an episode. Listen to Leave the Lit on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The last few months in San Francisco have been honestly better than you expected. Still hot and dry, but now

that you're in fall, the heat has become manageable. In the Bay area, at least, staying with your brother has been actually really nice. The first few showers felt like luxury. Recently he's had less of a good time. He found out he was getting laid off right before the school year started. He told me. Over fifteen thousand other teachers have been fired as a part of the governor's new reform schools program. The teacher's union is fighting it, but

your brother isn't too optimistic of regarding the outcome. He's been looking for new work, and meanwhile, you've gotten a shitty retail job to help with bills while you decide on what hospitals you want to apply to. You don't really miss your old MS job in Redwood Valley. When you finally do get back into medical care, you really prefer something in a hospital clinic setting as opposed to

the extra stress inherent in emergency services. The one chance you have had to use your medical skills since moving was during the fires last September and October back up north. They got really bad and hundreds of thousands of people evacuated. Down south. Some old activist friends of yours from college made their own fire relief slash mutual aid set up to give out clothes and food and to help people

displaced by the fires. You haven't talked much with your old college buddies in the past few years, but upon hearing of the relief effort, you happily offered up your skills to help with minor medical issues in a smell medic tent they set up. It was the first time you've helped with anything related to protests organizing since he moved up to Redwood Valley ten years ago. It was

oddly refreshing. Politics hasn't been a major part of your life since college, But speaking of politics, midterms are finally this month. The past year has felt like it stretched on forever. Your brother and his union buddies have been doing canvassing for a few progressive city council candidates that might actually get a shot at getting in. You haven't had time to adjust to San Francisco's local political scene, and honestly, you're not sure if you really care to.

You have been keeping half an eye on the big state electoral races, though, which feels kind of weird. You know there's no way the Republican government will get reelected, not here in California. One thing that has gotten you're worried is the weekly anti election fraud rallies that have

been happening in l A ever since October. The governor, surrounded by state troopers, has made it down himself a few times to drop up support from his fan base, and after the rallies, roving gangs of far right extremists have gone around randomly attacking homeless encampments. You heard that just last week after a Sunday rally, three people had to be rushed to the emergency room. It's now just

a week before election day. You're on the bus home from your job at the vintage clothing store when you receive a message on signal from one year old Call Knowledge Mutual Aid buddies you met up with again during the fire relief effort. The message reads, hey, are you free? On election Day. You hadn't really thought about the day itself, you respond, maybe nothing really planned yet. Your friend replies with a fat wall of text. My affinity group and

I are heading down to l A on Tuesday. There's a big stop, the Steel type rally happening, and where it is, lots of proud Boys are gonna show up. Comrades in l A have put out some calls for support, so my crew is going to go down and probably bring some medical stuff. If you want to come, we got an extra seat in the van. The thought of driving down to Los Angeles to deal with proud boys

doesn't excite you, especially on an already stressful day. You think about it for a few minutes, images of the people maimed during and after the recent rallies floods your mind. Your buddies no more about organizing and protests than you do, But you have more medical training. You side, You'll do it, You reply, I'll come with and pack some extra iffects and tourniquets. Among the issues of Republican recall, challengers have raised to attack NEWSOM force mismanagement has leomed large among

the recent complaints. This type of thing hearkens back to Trump's old habit of blaming the governor and not raking enough leaves for California's fiery plight. On a larger scale, this can be seen as part of an effort to push all the blame of wildfires off of oil gas and our transformation of the climate and onto a simple lack of fire prevention measures. This narrative, of course, makes

the fossil fuel industry more happy. The thing is, all of these things are contributing factors for California's wildfire problem. Climate changed caused hotter temperatures and droughts makes fires easier to catch and spread, and inadequate force management, plus above ground power lines do the same. Just because there are bad faith attacks on Newsom doesn't mean there aren't actual failures he's made as governor, especially in relation to the forests.

An investigation from CAP Radio and California MPR published last June found out Newsom had grossly misrepresented and fled out lied about his promises of new wildfire prevention efforts. Elements of the piece were of course used by Larry Elder and the Right to push for support of the recall, but the article itself is a very fine piece of journalism.

Back when Newsom first took office in January twenty nine, one of the first things he did was signed on the executive Order overhauling how California handles wildfire prevention and forest management. The measures included removal of hazardous dead trees, vegetation clearing, creation of fuel breaks and community defensible spaces,

and creation of ingress and egress corridors. In January twenty, a year after Newsom's initial announcement, the Governor's often claimed in a press release that under the executive Orders priority projects, ninety thousand acres got treated with these fire prevention measures, But according to data attained by cap Radio and MPR, the actual number of acres treated by these priority projects was only eleven thousand, three hundred and ninety nine, just

thirteen percent of the number Newsome boasted about, quoting the piece by cap Radio quote, data shows cal Fire's fuel reduction output dropped by half and twenty twenty two, levels below Governor Jerry Brown's final year in office. At the same time, Newsom slashed roughly one hundred and fifty million dollars from cow Fire's wildfire prevention budget. In four point three million acres burned, the most in California's recorded history.

That was more than double the previous record set in twenty eighteen, when the camp fire destroyed the town of Paradise, ultimately killing eighty five people. A decade ago, cal Fire was treating a poultry seventeen thousand acres annually. That number has steadily climbed, though Newsom misrepresented the number of acres

treated in his priority projects. The overall amount of wildfire mitigation work carried out by CalFire spiked in his first year of office to sixty four thousand acres, but in twenty twenty, fuel reduction totals plummeted to less than thirty two thousand acres, a roughly fifty percent drop unquote. Multiple factors contributed to twenty twenties subpar fire prevention and reduction efforts.

In twenty nineteen, the year with the large number of acres treated in recent history, the state budget allotted for three hundred and fifty five million dollars for wildfire prevention and resource management, but after the COVID nineteen pandemic hit California in early twenty Newsom cut the budget by down to two hundred and three million on top of the budget cuts, The fires themselves made prevention work more challenging.

Twenty twenties, wildfire season started out early, which resulted in less time to do prescribed burns and thinnings because the same teams that are tasked with prevention and fuel reduction often also serve as firefighters once the fires break out. As of Mae, cal Fire has treated over twenty three

tho acres throughout the year. This puts California on a trajectory better than last year's total, but not as high as the sixty thousand plus acres treated in Newsom has been trying to make up for his missteps and gross exaggerations. Quoting the Cap Radio report again quote, Newsom is trying to play catch up with the state enjoying an unexpected surplus.

Newsome proposed two billion in spending on wildfires and emergency preparedness, with one point two billion going towards wildfire resiliency in the upcoming budget. Experts say the increase in prevention spending could help the state get closer to a less dangerous wildfire season over time, but they also expressed concern over whether the state will sustain that commitment for years to

come unquote. Revelations about Newsom's and cow fires lies and lackluster force management were quickly jumped on by Larry Elder and other Republican challengers as an easy way to attack Newsom and to move the conversation about wildfires away from climate change. Elder has said he has quot unquote no idea why more prevention and reduction measures aren't being done, and when he becomes governor, he'll be quote implementing these common sensical kinds of plans so that we can reduce

the severity of these fires unquote. Elder has given no concrete plans on what measures he'll be shooting to implement, or any indication on how much money will be directed

to prevent or fight fires. On the noted budgets. Elder has said that the more recent spending on wind and solar power has left quote less money for removing trees and putting power lines underground, the kind of things that would make these fires less intense unquote, and he promises to drastically cut spending unrenew wibles while also investing more in oil and gas. To be clear, Newsom's upcoming budget contains billions for both fire prevention, slash fuel reduction, and

renewable energy such as wind and solar. Whoever ends up governing California is not only in charge of local politics. Like governors at other states. What happens in California affects people across the country and even globally, whether that's wildfire smoke traveling across continents or changes to supply chains and industry rippling across the world. California is, after all, the

world's fifth largest economy. There are also political ramifications that could affect the States as a whole if Elder gets in office. The Senate is currently a fifty fifty split between Republicans and Democrats, with Vice President Kamala Harris getting the tie breaking vote. One of California senators is eighty eight year old Diane Feinstein, the oldest active Senator. If she dies in off or has to step down due to medical reasons before her term is over, the governor

of California gets to appoint her replacement. If Elder appoints a Republican, then the Senate will be back under Geop control and give it his connections to the far right media sphere. The list of potentials that Elder could appoint is frightening. This is by no means inevitable even if Elder gets into office. If he does, Finstein does have the brief opportunity to step down and put a replacement

in before the new governor has sworn into office. However, Feinstein has said she has no plans of doing so. Reports of her declining health have become only more common in recent years, but like many politicians and judges, she's not keen on stepping aside, even to possibly help prevent a disastrous outcome. Changes in the Senate are not required

for horrible outcomes. In the wake of an even brief Elder governorship, his anti vax sentiments and planned to open up the state and remove basically all COVID restrictions will result in hospitals being pushed to max capacity. Elder has said he has plans to appoint education officials similar to former Secretary Betsy Devas, and judicial appointees like Conservative Supreme

Court Justice Clarence Thomas. Elder has stated his intention of declaring states of emergency and using executive orders to push through otherwise unpopular legislation. He has discussed plans to declare an education emergency in order to fire upwards of twenty one quote unquote bad teachers. Elder blames teacher unions for quote protecting bad teachers, and in a recent interview stated, quote someone told me that between five percent and seven

percent of public school teachers need to be fired. An emergency declaration would give the power to get rid of bad teachers faster than the system allows. Once you did that, automatically, education would improve overnight unquote. Now, Elder is not specified who had advised him on teacher terminations or how he plans to weed out the so called bad teachers out of the three thousand in the school system. He's also touted plans to declare a homeless emergency, but his solutions

have nothing to do with actually helping homeless people. His homeless emergency declaration would allow him to suspend the California Environmental Quality Act, the long requiring environmental review of building projects. Elders stated goal is to unleash developers and contractors without environmental regulation, which he claims to quote trees developers and contractors like criminals unquote, and allows building projects to get

suspended indefinitely, ultimately raising the cost of housing. In his opinion, one of the more frightening aspects of Larry Elder is his close ties to many far right propagandists. He's done work for Praker You Epic times, and has been a guest on Fox News at least two hundred and twenty times in the past five years. In the last episode,

we discussed his friendship with Dennis Prager. Also, Dave Reuben just recently campaigned for Elder at a recent rally, and a month and a half ago, Elder was on Candice Owens show discussing how the descendants of slave owners deserve reparations for having their property i e. Black people stolen from them when the slaves were freed. Those are his words, not mine. What's probably most concerning is Elder's connection to Stephen Miller. In fact, we wouldn't have Stephen Miller if

it were not for Larry Elder. Back in the late nineties, a conservative student from Santa Monica High School would call into Larry Elder's show to rant about his school's liberal culture. Reportedly, the student would go around demanding staff and fellow students regularly recite the Pledge of Allegiance. He railed against condom giveaways and called Spanish language announcements quote a crutch preventing

Spanish speakers from standing on their own unquote. Young Californians calling into Elder's show and agreeing with him wasn't very common, and Elder ate it up. He loved talking with the student so much that he let the kid on basically any time he wanted a platform to rant and rave. You know where this is going. That student was Stephen Miller.

According to Miller, he appeared on Elder's show sixty nine times throughout his time in high school and university, and calls Elder quote the one true guide I've always had unquote. Miller's appearances on Elder's radio show made him a recognizable figure in the larger conservative media world, helping him connect with Steve Bannon and eventually President Trump. By extension, Elder

was Stephen Miller's on ramp to the White House. In an email to Miller in Elder told him quote, I hope to live to see the day when you become president. When media has brought up his friendship with Stephen Miller, Elder tries very quickly to change the subject when pushed on the topic. In an interview, Elder shot back with quote, why would you bring up Stephen Miller? I'm just wondering what the agenda here is. What's the point, am I somehow what a Nazi? A fascist? Unquote? I think that

says enough. The reason we haven't discussed the other candidates in the recall election is because at this point, if Newsom is recalled, it's absolutely certain that Elder will be the one to succeed him. He has a twenty point lead ahead other challengers, but that lead is still only a tiny fraction of the total electorate, which demonstrates the

part of the problem in California's recall process. There are other Republican challengers with concerning pasts and beliefs, lots of anti mask, anti trans, anti VAXX, total disbelief, and climate change people spouting q and on originated conspiracy claims advocating the lie that the presidential election was stolen. And there's even a Democrat challenger that plans to use the National Guard to round up all homeless people and put them

in concentratetion camps. But Elder himself shares a lot of those views and uses the fact that he's black as a shield for criticism against his racist and nationalist policies and ideas. We haven't even mentioned that. Last month Elder's x fiance came out and said that Elder was extremely abusive and had threatened her with a loaded gun. In early August, polls were showing pretty much a neck and neck for the first question on the ballot, yes or

no on the recall itself. A Survey USA pull from that time even had respondents vote no on the recall and fifty one percent vote yes to remove Newsom. Throughout August and September, results started to flip the other direction as ads against the recall hit the airwaves and internet. The latest Survey USA poll has fifty focent voting no one the recall and voting yes. Other polls hover around the same ten to fifteen point lead for Newsome staying

in office. Now, with poles not going the way Elder in the GOP would like, we're starting to see a new, get familiar narrative being prepared on on my on my website, elect Elder dot com. We have voter Integrity Project. We have lawyers all set up, all ready to go to foul lawsuits. In a timely fashion. The reason the lawsuits did not did not work in the election. We know what happened there is because the lawsuits were filed too late and many of them were dismissed one procedural grounds.

Of course, don't like to overturn an election. So when did you hear of anything suspicious? We've heard a lot of things that have been suspicious so far. Go to elect Elder dot com. We're gonna sick our lawyers on them, foul lawsuits right away. They're gonna cheat. We know that.

Can I tell you what? So many people are angry about the crime, about the homelessness, about the way he shut down this state, about the fact that one third of all small businesses, many of them are owned by black and brown and Asian American people that they hear about, but the declining call of the schools, about the fact that people are leaving, rolling brownouts, lack of water. So many people are angry. The number of people that are gonna to recall this man's going to be so overwhelming.

So then even when they cheat, they're still gonna lose. That's Larry Elder saying that if he doesn't win, that means the election must have been stolen. Fox News has been promoting the same idea the past month. All of it is in the vein of the stop the Steel movement post presidential election, culminating with the attempted insurrection on January six. Here's Elder again on Fox News in early September.

But you're right, I am concerned about voter fraud, and that's why I'm asking people to go to elect Elder dot com. That's my website. We have a voter integrity project set up with a bunch of lawyers ready to foul lawsuits if anybody sees anything suspicious. Big election fraud conspiracy proponent and former House Speaker Newt Gingrich was one of the first people to chime in to stoke disinformation

about the recall election. And I think this may well be the most rigged stay wide election we've seen probably at least a half century. And I think people should look carefully of this because it's pretty good evidence that if Newsom is in a straight, honest count, he probably

has a good chance of losing. But if they can stuff every batto on box in California and they can cheat in every way possible, and of course this type of propaganda has made it onto the most watched cable news show on air, Tucker Carlson, California does not get the credit it deserves for the corruption that's endemic there. It's a one party state and they act like it. And You've got to have concerns about whether this recall election will be free and fair. Are you concerned, Well,

of course I'm concerned, Tucker. I'm involved in election integrity efforts throughout the United States, and I'm also a member of the Republican National Committee. So we have a team of lawyers that is ready to deploy throughout the state

here and we are monitoring things every single day. Just a couple of hours ago, I filed a lawsuit to intervene in a challenge to the constitutionality of the recall statute because, frankly, I don't trust the Secretary of State or the Attorney General, who are both appointed by the governor, to defend him in this regard, and so we are going to be jumping on every potential opportunity to do that and fight back against the Democrats. Of course, they

are playing fast and lews. We've seen some very alarming scenes of three D ballots bundled together in the car of a person with a gun and some drugs, and so we are definitely looking into all of these issues. But Tucker, ultimately it's going to come down to how

much do people want to change in California. And I can tell you even living in my latte sipping avocado toast, eating, you know, Lululemon wearing neighborhood in San Francisco, people are fed up with the crime, the drugs, the homelessness, the intermittent electricity, and everything else that is wrong with California. So people want to change here. It's just not working. And this really is a test of whether our system works. I mean, can people get better leadership? That's kind of

the question. Will there be election observers on the scene so the rest of us can know this was fair? Well, the problem in California is that the voting doesn't just take place on election day like it would in a normal place. It takes it's taking place now on a rolling basis through mail in voting. It's a hard to percent mail in ballots this time around, and it is going to take place for thirty days after the election if it's close, because they have thirty days to count

the vote. That's sixty days of voting, and of course a lot of shenanigans can occur and ballots can disappear, So we are going to be observing it very closely and demanding accountability and filing lawsuits wherever we need to to hold the Democrats accountable because we cannot trust them. Yeah, I hope. So people want to believe the system works, that it's real that they have powered their vote matters. So I appreciate what you're doing. Harmytal, and thank you.

A lot of what's said in that last clip is either extremely misrepresented or just flat outlines. Those three ballots found in a car, we're actually part of a larger mail theft thing not related to the election at all. Voters have received new ballots and for this election, just like the last one, Californians have the option to vote in person, to mail in ballots, or deliver them in a dropbox. The deadline to drop off mail or place

your vote is September. Counting cannot start till the fourteenth either, and like every election, there will be observers throughout the entire counting process. Obviously, this isn't the first time conservative media has hyped up election fraud, the last presidential election being the biggest instance to date. But what is concerning here is that they're setting up a template to use for all future elections whenever Republicans lose. Here's a Fox

clip from September seven. The only thing that will save Gavin Newsom is voter fraud. So as they say, stay woke, pay attention to the voter fraud going on in California because it's going to have big consequences not only for that state but for upcoming elections. It's safe to assume that stop the Steal esque strategies will be used almost every time a Republican loses in an election going forward. We've seen exactly what this type of rhetoric and propaganda

leads to, and it ends in blood. There were multiple attacks on state capitals during the Stop to Steel rallies prior to January six. In some places like Salem, Oregon, they succeeded in getting inside the capital. Even if Newsom gets to stay in office, there will still be many problems, electric conspiracies and the possibility of violence, like January six just being one we haven't wanted to righteously defend Newsom here.

He's a politician and inept in many ways. He deserves plenty of criticism, especially on the issues of climate change. But the criticism levied at Newsom from the likes of Elder in the GOP are based on bigotry, nationalism, and climate denial. Newsom should be our punching bag, not theirs. I'm Rodsky, author of the New York Times bestseller fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space, activists on the gender

division of labor, attorney and family mediator. And I'm Dr adding A Rucar, a Harvard physician and medical correspondent with an expertise and the science of stress, resilience, mental health, and burnout. We're so excited to share our podcast Time Out, a production of I Heart Podcasts and Hell of Sunshine. We're uncovering why society makes it so hard for women to treat their time with the value it deserves. So

take this time out with us. Listen to Time Out, a fair Play podcast on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm j Calbern, host of deep Cover. Our new season is about a lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago. We controlled the courts, We controlled absolutely everything. He brobed judges and even helped a hit man walk free, until one day when he started talking with the FBI and promised that he could

take the mob down. I've spent the past year trying to figure out why he flipped and what he was really after. From my perspective, Bob was too good to be true. There's gotta be something wrong with this. I wouldn't trust that guy. He looks like a little scum, big liar, stool pidging. He looked like what he was or at. I can say with all certainty I think he's a hero because he didn't have to do what he did, and he did it anyway. The moment I put the wire around the first time, my life was over.

If it ever got out, they would kill me. In the Heartbeat, listen to deep Cover on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Black Effect presents features honest conversations and exclusive interviews, a space for artists, everyday people and listeners to amplify, elevate, and empower black voices with great conversations. Make sure to listen to the Black Effect Presents podcast on I Heart Radio, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Greetings and

welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. I am a researcher and writer on the podcast team. Today we have a roundtable discussion with a group of researchers who look into extremism and political political violence that's usually stemming from far right propagandists and people in that kind of whole sphere. So we have a discussion relating to climate change and all these other things. So that I

was able to record these fine people. It's split up into two sections, so part one is coming out today, Part two is coming out tomorrow. Highly recommend you listen to both, maybe maybe even back to back at some point because it does really give a nice, rounded out um view of what we were talking about. So, without further ado, here is my discussion with I kind of know, well, not not a dozen, but of a lot a large amount of terrorism researchers. As we are all uh in

the woods. As you will soon find out, welcome token happened here the Daily Show. I am Garrison Davis, and I am recording in an undisclosed location in the woods. Um we are me and a few a few internet colleagues are all hiding from the world for a week to reset our poisoned brains. But I'm gonna slightly re poison us here for about an hour to have a discussion about climate change and terrorism because all we have a group of people here who are all well research

the bad thing online a lot. So I'm gonna try to try to use to take advantage of having this uh unique group of people all in one location to have this nice discussion for you guys. But yeah, specifically we want to we want to talk about how we how each of us has an you know, quote unquote expert in certain fields. Um see climate change im acting impacting extremism and terrorism in the next in the next few decades. Um. And yes, we are recording in the force.

So if you hear sounds like we're in the forest, that's because we are. Um. You you guys already know me, or you probably do. But I'm gonna we're gonna go around a circle, probably starting on my left, um, introducing the people. And yeah, just give a brief a brief brief bio. However detail do you want to get into. My name's Matt Taylor. I'm a journalist and researcher focusing on cults, um, conspiracy theories, and extremism. And to day is my birthday. Happy Birthday, Matt. In the in the past,

my name's THEO. I am a journalist and researcher as well. I mostly focused on the American militia movement and paramilitary groups. I'm toothpick Um with THEO, Matt Emmy and Big New Houses. Isn't here on terrorism, Bat, that's that's a that's a podcast, by the way, self plugged. Um. My research and reporting focuses on mainly on conspiracy theories and where that overlaps with political extremism and the focus on connections between US

in Europe, especially Germany. I'm Peter Smith. I'm a journalist with the Canadian Anti Hate Network and the host of the Unusual Show podcast. I'm Lily and I focus on experimism and kind of terrorism and data analysis and I'm Emmy. I do digital propaganda and rhetoric. That that that is

our little crew. Um. Yeah, let's see what the first thing we kind of want to talk about, I'm guessing is how we see like small because like the podcast is more about like smaller local collapses, like we don't there's not gonna be one big collaps Where does see small things start to fall apart? And how we see when small things all apart, what we do we see filling in those gaps? Specifically, I think this will tie into the militia movement a lot in a lot of ways. UM.

So yeah, you guys can start sprouting off your your knowledge. Yeah. So one of the things that I've been thinking of and following it. I don't now if this has made as much of an impact in US media. UM. But in the last month UM, parts of Germany and the Netherlands experienced UM, really bad flooding UM that that literally wiped out some villages and some towns. UM. And one of the things that we've seen in Germany is you know,

far right groups. UM. There isn't really a militia movement because it all laws there, but but far right groups rushing in UM and collecting aid and going for photo

ops UH in those catastrophe areas. UM. And what that does make me think of And maybe THEO can talk more about this guy as we've seen similar stuff in the US with the militia moving marking themselves as you know, emergency preparedness UM or marking them selves in that way and positioning themselves where when you know the government is unable to respond, that these groups are able to come in UM and also using that for their messaging and for their rhetoric. Yeah. So, I mean that is something

that you see in the US. The biggest example Garrison and I talked about this earlier, but during the wildfires in Oregon last year, you saw checkpoints being established by militia groups, whether all already formed militia groups are kind of impromptu armed bands, and you also see that as like a big marketing thing. I know a lot of the Virginia based militias that I follow went out to Tennessee two one or two years ago when the tornadoes happened. Yeah, they did a bunch of m H kind of aid

and photo ops. Yeah. So just not to docks myself, but I'm from Nashville. And then, uh, the beginning of in March, right before someone just dropped a toy gun. Great job, guys. Yeah. So in the beginning of March of last year, right before COVID hit Nashville, we had a huge tornado go through Nashville itself and wipe out like two different neighborhoods and then a rural town right

outside Nashville. But you saw a lot of like, so the community comes together and this really nice display mutual aid to do all the cleanup basically before any official cruise could get there. But with that you also sell like these far right groups coming in for photo ops and it just it normalizes their presence in heavily impacted

areas and it was not not ideal. Yeah, a lot of the American militia movement, especially the modern kind of post two three strain of it, is predicated on this idea of a complete breakdown of order or a loss

of civil order, however you conceive of that. And um, these like climate disasters that are going to hit areas are going to kind of provide a self fulfilling prophecy for these people to step in and say like, oh no, you need some sort of armed force, You need some sort of group of people to keep order and to keep law in whatever way they conceive of that. I do think it's interesting you guys talking about kind of like the photo op thing that they do, because when

the wildfire has happened in Oregon. All of the the actual like relief work was done by anti fascists, Like we like people in Portland, we set up, you know, these these massive camps to help you know, all these like you know, much more conservative people who is, who have whoa to that wait their evacuate their homes and they were all getting fed and all like their closest that were coming from anti fascists, and the all the

right did was do the arm checkpoints thing. But interesting that like in the South, where there's less anti fascists, like you know, compared to the generals, compared to the Portland right, how some of those groups actually do do some of the relief effort um and that that's definitely not the case up here in the in the West coast. Oh yeah, I mean last year, I remember a few

county level militias that I follow in Virginia. We're like seriously doing relief work, like they were gathering food, they were taking out places affected by flooding in North Carolina by tornadoes and Tennessee. It's not I wouldn't go so far as to call it mutual aid because it lacks the kind of ideological framework for that, but they are providing some sort of infrastructure for their guys. Yeah yeah, yeah, with with less of like the theory side of mutually.

But like, and I'm sure there's someone else who can speak more on this, but like from my perspective growing up in a super weird church, I see this in interacting, they see this like combining with local churches a lot as well. Um, I'm not sure there's anyone else here who could say something more intelligently than me about how

like religion will combine with these like kind of militia effort. Well, I was like eco eco extremists, like on the far right, on the very fringe far right, can start to like be very esoteric about there, you know, belief in climate change, and they start to sort of frame it as like our reason for the collapse, Um, that we need collapse, are attacking infrastructure, like for the purpose of somehow saving the planet, even though it's really not going to get anywhere.

We really need to We have to do a lot of our own work on the planet. We can't just destroy everything and see if it work. Yeah, we can definitely bring up accelerationists and accelerationism as a as an over overarching thing that is, you know, not just it not to be like horseshoe theory about it, but the accelation is that pops up in a whole whole lot of areas, including areas of the left, where it becomes very unuseful. Um that can lead to like a lot

of wasted time and some destructive tendencies. I mean, I think that point kind of also provides an interesting through line between more mainstream militias and like the really esoteric brands of eco fascism or ecologically based extremism, is that like they're both very influenced by like colonial schools of thought, like eco fascism and all that is kind of predicated on this idea of like tera nolis, like there is this perfect empty wild land that we can have manifest

destiny exactly, And like so much of the ideas of order and um like peacekeeping that you find within more mainstream militia movements come from this exact same type of thinking,

where it's like a colonial order that you need to keep. Yeah, I don't know, there's a lot of a lot of people on the left who are in like the kind of like you know, green green, like like ecosocialist or like green anarchists kind of strange to get very straining when people talk about eco fascism, which I can understand because no one really means the same thing when they

talk about it. Sometimes they just mean any like any like quote unquote terrorism that has like has like environmental purpose. Some people, you know, when they think of eco fascists, we think of like overpopulation. You know, there's a lot of different things they mean mean by it. But I know we we've all had talks about like what we personally view as like eco fascism, because it's it's it's it's not just eco streamism, Like eco streamism does not

equal fascism. Like there is there's a whole bunch of eco extremists who are very anti fascist, um. And there is some who kind of bridge bridge the gap, you know, like like like id S has some more fascist tendencies, But I would not accurately call them fascist based on the type of stuff they do, with type of writing they do, they do not have, they do not check

all of the boxes. Um. But then then we do have people who I would accurately describe as eco fascists who have done who've done you know, mass shootings who have a lot of eco who have eco fascist stuff either in the writing that they like or their own manifestos. They bring enough points it's like, yeah, you kind of fall into this broad category. Do someone here want to

give their personal definition of ego fascism? This isn't this not necessarily exactly what we use for the pod, But I just I'm interested to Here's a lot of people with various backgrounds. Everyone has their own specialized knowledge. What kind of when people say that, what, what do you kind of put into that category? People believe in like this organic law and like natural order, and they believe that like there is a natural hierarchy ingrained in everything.

And I think that generally, like if we return to like some kind of primitive society or like, you know, they'll assume that like everything has uh it's own structure, and that there's going to be people who rise to the top, people who just you know, uh don't belong in that kind of society. It's going to be really

damaging for like the elderly, for disabled people. And they just sort of see it as like survival of the fifth um, And I think that's like a much more eco fascist point of view rather than like a more green anarchist point of view where things with sort of even out um, rather than become a hierarchical Yeah. Yeah,

I think hierarchy is an important part of that. And how we you know, there is like a lot of green anarchist who are focusing on like making their own medication for for you know, people with tybies and stuff. That's kind of stuff that's like really interesting to look at and stuff that we should absolutely pursue because we'll become less relianced apply chains. And we don't really see ego fascists doing that. We do not see them focusing

on making medication for people. Oh no, maybe I can kind of set some people have to say more stuff if I say it was real quickly. But one of the things that I always or that that is a red flag for me is is just you know, bring in this very traditional discussions of gender roles and and relating that to the environment. Yeah, of our rhetoric, I mean, I don't we don't need to say names of specific like writers are people, but there's definitely describe the general sure, Yeah,

stop playing with the toy gun. Oh my god, Um, just just like establishing and it is kind of it can be kind of like an older left thing too, but establishing you know, ecological discussions within framework of traditional gender roles um and kind of like what is expected of people based on their sex. Yeah, this is this is this is the dark side of cottage core. Yes,

that's the one way to put us. I mean you want to get in here, oh boy, yeah, I like parts of cottage courts, just not want intersects with a certain strade of politics, Like queer cottage core is extremely cute until yeah, well until you're not queer, and listen, you know, sometimes they still are. Now here's the thing. When we're when we're dealing with like traditional gender role stuff, it's a really like slippery slope into more aggressive strains

of thought. So when we're when we're talking about the the idea of of the class birthday, it's mass birthday. You asked to apologize, Yeah, Rick to the editor, I wouldn't know. That's so good. So when they're talking about the claps and they want, you know, they think the rod of modernity will be gone, society will be ended. They can they can you know, rebuild from the ground up, smaller communities and uh, they can they can build the

society they want, which is largely no nationalists. It's not great. The the idea that there will be this this supertraditional family structure. You're going to have your this combined strong warrior also homesteading man and your cool trad life who never ages above thirty in this society. Like I'm being generous here, assuming that at least like some of these people have a little bit of like pre planning. But

they don't. They don't um and they step on each other a lot, right because they have this this whole plan for this uh, this society free of industry, um, and they can't stop posting about it on the internet. It's really funny, right, Like they're not they're not good at it. Yeah, they're like way too addicted to posting to like actually commit to like the true off the grid trad life. At least at least ten k was off the grid. We don't gotta hand it. We don't

got a hand to it. You want the circumtensis got hit pod divided on how much we've got to hand it? Said, Kay, the official stands of terrorism bad is a terrorism is bad? Why don't we just bring them on. It is kind of a concern when they do end up when they stop posting. I mean when they're posting, but it's kind of more concerning posting sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, if the same as like looking at a kid that wants to be

a firefighter or something like they're just talking. They're not going to do it, but you see some of the I'm doing it and when they're doing the thing, the lifestyle influencer version of fascism. Yeah, do you think that it's going to affect kind of like laws about living off grid and laws about like for for normal people. I just want to get the funk out. I actually

just read something about this. There's some guy who've been living off grade in Pennsylvania for like thirty years and I don't remember the details of this, and we don't have internet out here. Burn his house down. Yeah, he's in jail now. He's probably to be in jail for

the rest of his life. And I think part of whether it comes from left through the right as people kind of start to try to build resiliency within communities for disasters that are coming and start to seek ways of living that do not rely on supply chains and do not rely on the state. The state will strike back against that as a consolidation of power, because the more that people move away from it, whether on the

left or right, the less power the state has. I mean, and utilizing counter terrorism an excuse to do so, Yeah, because they're giving reasons and it's not it's not going to get enforced equally. I'm sure the government's gonna gonna focus uncertain people doing this and be slightly more okay with other people doing it. Um. Well, yeah, what's so?

I would like to talk about Canada a little bit, because specifically climate change affecting Canada's can be very it's going to be slightly different, and most of it go to the States because I've been I've been I've been having my my waist deep in climate science books for most of twenty one. Um, and Canada's gonna probably see economic boosts um. And they're probably the state's probably just gonnaa gap to get act you stronger because of how

the same thing with Russia. Both Canada and Russia are going to get more economically powerful under climate change because of how much more props are gonna get moved up. How give me your thoughts to canad because in canada's my backup plan. It's gonna gets too spicy in the States. I'm I'm taking my Canadian passport and hiding in the woods.

Um how how What's it's interesting to hear you guys talk about American millistic culture because we we definitely are Rhetoric and propaganda that we see in Canada gets borrowed a lot the talking points from the States, like the concepts, but what we don't have are these strong organized militia groups. We had three per centers for a while, um and who still exists, but they were they were big about being off right like they were the ones who weren't

posting for a long time. UM. And it seems like as much as all these people are still around, they've largely deflated, doubt because Canada has made some some efforts to call them terrorists right right. Very recently we designated them as a terrorist organization, which doesn't carry a criminal charge.

But if you if you do something involved with them, you send them money like there is there are consequences that have legal enhancements, um, but are are kind of militia culture focuses on the illegitimacy of the state that Canada is founded. It's very kind of soft sit type rhetoric. But that Canada's establishment, it's it's rules, and especially with all the public health measures, it's this growing, uh, this growing kind of tired of thought in both the prairies

and largely out west. I grew up in Saskatchewan. Um, most of my families in Alberta. I know when when I look at when I because I keep a soft eye on some Canadian hate groups just because I'm Canadian. Most of them popped up around Alberta. Um, we're you see this stuff kind of like happening, Like do you see any of this on the East coast? If so, it's smaller or is this mostly on the West coast Canada? Thing? Well, that like that conspiratory of thought we've seen kind of

across the country, Like on the East coast. You know, just recently we had people setting up their own version of checkpoints um as like a protest against the the public health measures, and like the whole eastern part of Canada is in its own bubble right now. Um. But yeah, you had this the conspiracy based movement forming these actual checkpoints and then the main part of it though, is probably going to be out west. That is where these

ideas are the most popular or the most popular. That makes sense where mainstream politicians are moving towards, you know, amplifying these types of talking points. Do you see that like? Is that it is that a mostly Alberta thing. It's mostly like prairies Alberta, the farmland. The interesting part is that when you talk about groups is like in Canada, groups are an urban phenomenon. For the most part, most of our organization takes place around the city centers, and

that is very different from the States. With the States, that's it's usually the usually the opposite. In some there's there's always exceptions of two minimum people live. But generally we see it as more as more of a rule thing which teams organized, whereas cities are more like liberal

and that's what the anti fascist groups are based. Um. But it's kind of these like these little ideological pockets that exist all over and certainly that sentiment is probably shared, but the need to mobilize seems to mostly focus on the urban centers, and then we'd never have our groups. They don't providing any kind of page that's just or even checkpoints like that's beyond these like very recent protest movements. You know, there has been no more forest fires around BC, um,

around you know what Western Alberta. Um. How do you see the government's response these types of things right now? And it Canada isn't particular situation with um, the Liberals having a minority control. Um. You know, the Canadian poems parliamentary system is probably confusing to alote Americans that they don't understand it already. UM. But yeah, how how what do you what do you see on on that front?

You know, you know just in true both both true down Biden talk the talk around like pipelines and stuff, but then do the complete opposite. Um. How do you could have seen this kind of stuff working right now? For for like on the on the climate side of things, Well, yeah, our our reaction to the firefighters or reaction to the wildfires. UM. I mean the government response has always looked at on like,

it's always looked at poorly. Um. But none of these people are taking this as an opportunity to kind of change minds and of do pr Um. There's much less reaction to it. Most like the West. Also, there's this incredible feeling of alienation because of the way that government is set up, they have substantially less they have substantially

less voting power. Yeah, the same way the States, how you know, there's like this excelling states with states in the Midwest, you feel like they don't really have any power politically. The same things for almost the entire East, entire West coast of Canada, everything from like Manitoba to Alberta, parts of BC. Everyone is very frustrated at at at the at the federalise um and how they really don't

have control for what's happening. Like, yeah, people in the East Coast are controlling what what our what our pipelines are, what our minds are doing, and that does not fair to our workers, because yeah it is. It does suck when you know, a mind closes and then everyone in a small town is out of business. Like the part the part right in Canada, almost Stanley around them, you know, used to be you know, bustling small towns that are basically all all now ghost towns because stuff to close.

People have to meet to either like Calgary, Edmonton, Regina don't laugh, um, so you know all all these specific things. You know, we see pockets of this, we see pockets. We see pockets of this and like the Good West

in the state's deal. Also it's like like manifestest naship because like they are a lot of it started with people kind of moving outward to try and gain more land and make their borders um larger and like live further out to like try and uh, I don't know, to more territory um and with the like Canadian big surgeon like indigenous rights and the big focus and shift to like sort of give them land back or so I'm not exactly clear on what the Canadian stances are

on that. Oh, just like I mean, we have a big movement from indigenous populations to they seem very like the comment like, well there's so many different bands and tribes in different types of nations. Um, like we have unseated territory, and the dynamics with which the government is supposed to deal with and has agreed to deal with

it actually does deal with them is all vastly different. Um. But yeah, that that idea of this focus on these particular issues, like indigenous issues, even our attempts to you know, have a greener economy, you know for a place that for a long time and still is an extraction economy. Yes, Um, how does that like a fact the oil company with healthcare more like extremist far right groups who want to move out that way, um, for the purpose of organizing.

And you also have the indigenous focus within the liberal government. So like, how do those two groups do you think like interact? Uh? Like the general conception is that the push for indigenous rights, especially on the farther right, is is for the digient franchipisement of white Europeans like it is um. And then yeah, you do have this Western exodus where we have very popular figures who are moving

further west because they are these stronger ideas of sovereignty. Um. I forget what exactly it was pulling, but when the Western exit or exit was started, you know, there was a significant amount of popular or at least like not strong support, but like existing support there was there was

there was a it was a large amount of support. Yeah. Absolutely, It'll be interesting to see what happens though, talking about collapse, like you know in these small towns, in like cloistered communities, um, you know, they already feel cut off from the government and not represented. And then if you have a breakdown of infrastructure, you know, that will create why do we even have them in the first place if they're not helping us, which is which, which is true, which is

like a well real thing to think about. But their solutions are wildly different than the actual solutions to help people, right. And we've already see how this plays out in the past as well with um, you know, places where uh, the infrastructure starts to break down and then people who have weapons kind of become the authority just based on

the fact that they have more power. Yeah. So one of the things that I follow is a lot of kind of like the more let's characterize it as as boomer esque conspiracy theories, UM, especially with anti vax, anti

public health measures type thing UM. And one of the things that that that really is noticeable to me is how much more sovereignties and stuff is creeping up into those areas UM and especially you know, they're they're two really big examples of you know, if there's an anti DAX protest in your city, it's probably one of these two networks that both come from Europe UM that I'm

not going to name right now. UM. And those two networks also you know, love to organize over the messaging app Telegram, UM and Telegram is tell me if I'm stepping in at any Telegram is where you know, so much of this ideology, this far right ideology is able to cross mix and commingle um. You know, I we

talked about Telegram in the pods, but people are familiar. Yeah, I have been stepped in it yet keep going yeah, adjacent to step but it's yeah, so so I mean, my, my, The biggest framework going to talk about this a lot is is Telegram as kind of this technological body of the cultic milieu because there is so like basically no enforcement close to no enforcement on Telegram and so you know, these these more malicious actors know that, and they know

that they can find an audience who is interested in, you know, opposing the mainstream conspiratorial thought in these kind of like boomer tell boomers on Telegram and conspiracy groups, and there are you know, militious actors planning to go

in and when these people over it. And you know a lot of these militious actors are younger people who don't have those resources, but they know that they can win over these people who do have resources, who own land who have savings to kind of like fund that movement if yeah, oh, I was just gonna say, I do think that the cultic miliuse like a really important heuristic for these kind of collapse in areas, because the question of what happens when kind of infrastructure and any

sort of political guidance falls away is governed a lot by that, and like this idea that there's there are these ideas floating around in our society and once people have nothing else turned to, these malicious actors will bring this stuff in and uh yeah, to put it simply, then we're pretty fucked. Yeah. Telegram also has recently started

to have to crack down people and UM. Because of that, you have this really interesting dichotomy of people who are saying, like this means like get ready, get prepared, go off, grig gone. And you also have on the other end people who are saying, you know, create all type platforms and like create UM more like self encryption and like I'm trying not to step in right now, yea, yeah, but to be able to to speak more peer like peer to peer UM resources. And that wraps up part

one of the Terrorism round Table discussion. Thanks so much, for listening. You can find us at happen Here pod and cool Zone Media. On all of the socials UM. You can find me at Hungry bow Tie UM, and you can follow a decent amount of the researchers on their podcast at Terrorism Bad, the podcast I think. I think it's just at Terrorism Bad anyway. Thanks for listening to Part one, Part two drops tomorrow. Stay tuned. This is Roxande Gay, host of The Roxanne Gay Agenda, the

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is part two of our Terrorism Roundtable discussion. If you haven't listened to part one already, I would recommend you scroll back, listen to the previous episode and then continue on from here so you have kind of context to what exactly we're talking about. Anyway, this is two of our discussion in the Woods. I hope you enjoy. Something that I've talked about earlier this year after January six, was like should the government ban telegram? Right? That was

the thing? And there's a lot of a lot of arguments are like no, absolutely not, and there's does it Does anyone want to speak on that? Because you know, because like if I want to talk about the government's response to these things, you know, that's a very government thing to do. Be like, oh, people are organized on this platform, get into the platform problem gone, you know, and that's not how that works. One us talking that

a little bit. Sure, Um, yeah, so they're getting rid of the platform doesn't necessarily help, especially when it's something that is important, such as like you know, encrypted communication, which is something that more people than just Nazis need um, and that resource should not be cut off. And there's also kind of a bad precedent to be said if the if the government is deciding which uh forms of speech it needs to have complete access to. I don't

love that. Um. The other thing is that if we knew telegram, right, they don't disappear, they form that networks. They're still there, and still they have to do more things in person, still there, they're just harder to hard. People are absolutely correct when they say D platforming works because it works for the platform, and a lot of people just want that. A lot of people just don't want to see Nazi ship and they're fine with you know, D platform and they say this works, and they have

data to backup that it does work. But it works for the platform. But the people still exist, well yeah, still boosting their own ship and when they bring up building their own all tech platforms. It certainly works in the early yeah, yeah, yeah, And there is elements that, yeah, D platform is a wider thing can especially for like in person stuff. But yeah, for your sort the thing

you're mentioning, yes it is. It is definitely not not that cut and dry, you know, and telegrams really interesting because it is kind of this middle space between social media and just a messaging app. Yeah. How The thing about it too, is that anybody can look at these you know, the public channels, so without without saying anything in the chance, so people could be kind of completely invisible. Nobody,

like nobody knows that they're there. They're watching this stuff, and they're still getting the same messaging, they're still getting the same dates for protests, they're still like organizing, but they can be uh, sort of just subscribe to a channel and you don't even need to be subscribed, you cause, yeah, just looking into and getting that flow of information without

ever having like formal organizing so to speak. So it's really hard to say that like, you know, these people planned this because there's a lot of plausible deniability and there's anybody was involved. There's so much easy hyper linking between groups and channels and everything, so it's so easy for someone to move between ideology and to go from kind of like the base level ship into the much deeper stuff extremely quick, very quick. Yeah, really quick. Well,

that's like that's good design. That's good for them about telegram is that you have all of the people that are vulnerable to let's say, new ideas in one place. That's exactly if you're trying to plan a collapse, you're going to need a lot more people than the numbers

that the people who want the collaps actually have. So the easiest way to kind of move things along is desert inserting their ideas and their discourses and kind of altering the vibe of certain digital environments manually until they

have um, what we can kindly call cannon fodder. Yeah, or even starting their own and saying like, you know, this is a maga platform and it's actually just you know, a bunch of bunch of acceleration ISS made made it to recruit them because saw attempts of this with like Q and on of people who are way more coleation is trying to use people. It was successful and the

people died. You're I mean that And then also you've got like like the idea of the boogaloo right that's being co opted to try to appeal to leftists, And I mean there's a really good article by Left Coast Right Watch that goes into one of those chats and they're basically like, yeah, really try to push these ideas of really try to push talking points like black lives matter and all this, we want to get these protesters

on our side. And then you also have um, some blatant like white supremacist groups who are all using the boogaloos And how much of that too is like how largen that is sort of real genuine like I am not racist, I believe in black lives matter, Like I want to be part of this even though I'm a bog or like how much of it also is um kind of reminiscent of what we were talking about yesterday,

And I also don't want to step in it. But like with you know, the idea of from Anson of like Helter Skelter and like causing that race where it's like they what they would do is like try and frame black people for it and say like this was you know, yeah, and how much of it is saying like this is black lives matter are and they want

people to see that after they do. The boogleloo groups that showed up in Portland in January in July when the particular fads were happening, now that they showed up and we're all like, yeah, we're here to support black lives matter and stand against the federal government and stuff. Um. And they had some very suspicious patches that it took me up took me about a year to figure out

what they were. And it's like this accelerationist like, um, it ties into whole bunch of like eco fascist propaganda stuff um and yeah, like they're they're saying these things, well they have these very obscure patches, um and yeah, this is an important reason why we need people who are not very smart, like I will say, Jimmy dor who puts these gives these people platforms are some of the worst and are going to cause a lot of problems because they have no idea what they're doing or

they know what they're doing, and they're just bad. And like that Boogleo thing kind of serves a twofold purpose in that you can bring people who self identify as leftists into the movement, but you also have a really good scapegoat for like actual Actually that was a big thing that we saw in Minneapolis when things first popped off, and like recently was getting burned down and suddenly people on the internet start losing their minds about the umbrella.

Guys at the and there was a guy who was indicted. He was a boo boo boy who was indicted for um like headlines said, burning down the precinct. He fired a weapon. He fired a gun on like near the wall exactly. And so that at the same time takes away agency from left wing movement and the States able to be like, look, see, it's just okay to crack down on them because they're all, you know, wild white supremacists exactly, just from any autonous room with the forms

of the people in the community. But isn't that we wouldn't necessarily for to his left is just piste off people. I mean, that's what we saw in every single you know, everybody perfect the young kids who are sucking piste off and are going to go smash it. And it's like saying, all of this is people from outside of the town. It's like, I never sign agitators. Yeah, it's a tale as old as time, Like outside agitator has been used since before this. It's a very old state talking point. Yeah,

what are you going to say that? Um, yeah, I was gonna say. Also, it's somewhat related to that. We're talking about using like human on his cannon fodder and it also ties into the sab sit conversation we're having. So my research I special are not specialized. I focus on Christian identity, this white supremacist ideology and how specifically how it's grown since the nineties until now through like

the Internet and all that fun stuff. This whole point they've been pushing lately is to like there this with Christian identity. The whole thing is they are preparing for the apocalypse, which they call the tribulations, and they see modern see I folks see the boogaloo as like the

tribulation that's coming. So what they're trying to do is go off grid and really try to like establish this new land or like to protect their kids and everything from like pollution and all that ship, but also to be away from the collapse and be able to start buy it. And then while they're doing all that, like prepping homesteads and the compounds and stuff, they're also like pushing like election fraud conspiracies and all that on like

Q and on in the maggot crowd. Not because they believe it, not because yeah, right, they don't believe it. They know it's bullshit, but they can use it to accelerate collapse, just like January say, yes exactly, I mean when I mean there are groups when Joe Biden won the presidency or won the election, whatever, some groups being like, yeah, I really try to push this theory of this conspiracy about election produd, even if you even if you don't

believe in it, just push it because that helps our cause. Um. And that's that's something to be really mindful of too. Forgot where else I was going with that. Well, yeah, a lot of them don't mean what they say. They'll say things that will push other people to do something

that they don't necessarily want to do. And that's a lot of a lot of Like during January six, so much excitement because they could see that the Q and on crowd are actually mobilizing, and so they said to them, like to themselves, like, you know, get them, get the mobilizing for the white race, get the mobilizing for you know, our cause. And they've really successfully been able to infiltrate that and be able to get some people on board

with some of it just based on using their rhetoric. Yeah, I know I talked about this on our podcast, but you could see it like I reported on January six

in person, and like you could watch it happen. Someone with a skull mask on or proud boy or an oath keeper would literally come back from the police line, grab a group of people, yell something at them about que and On or the storms upon us, and throw them up to that riot line and until they got did a really good did a really good visual investigation of how those extremistcupes you used mega people in quan On people as their foot soldiers. Qu A folk q

A didn't really get break down their podcast. Yeah, but it's also with I mean not to link everything the Christian identity, which I have a tendency to do, but it's it's very ideologically similar to q and On, like from a Christianity point of view, Like that's quan On is like so close to the edge of Christian identity. It's very scary. Actually I talked about it on Jake

hammer Hens Q Clarance podcast. But it there's also like not only trying to accelerate things through them, but also trying to recruit them through these like very very similar talking points about like the Synagogue of Satan and all that, saying that Christian identity is an entry point for some of them. Some of them bring it up as an

entry point into further like accelerationist Nazi ship. But like they will start with Christian identity because I think that it's more practical to people who already believe in Q and on. Yeah, exactly, Will was saying these There's a lot of this comes from these kind of boomer conspiracies and anti vax groups, and you're not going to be able to get you know, Mimon pap Pap into like wotonism or something like that if you try hard enough change.

But like Christianity is something that's palatable, it's something that's normal to them, and as you can kind of slowly tweak it through to it on, you can get them to this much warp stream. Talk about Christian identity. I think we should, like, maybe Matt, you could define it Christian identity. It's this radical offshoot of Christianity that sees all white people as the true Israelites from the Bible um. And they also think Jewish people are all literally the

spawn of Satan. There's this really dumb theory they came up with and like kind of rewrote the whole Bible off of called can I name Zoka okay dual seed line theory where they say, like the story if you know about like Adam and even all that they had can enabled. Right, So they see um Kane was the offspring of Eve and the devil and he was literally the spawn of Satan and then he intermingled with all these races that were there before Adam and Eve and

created this demonic race. And it's really really fucking dumb, but it's still here. It's been here for It's probably gonna keep going. It's gonna get worse calling it now, it's gonna get worse. Yeah, but uh, and the whole thing is they essentially like worship like a Nazi Jesus. They see Jesus only was really only talking to the white race, and that Christianity and like God only is

able to be perceived by the white race. And before you start laughing at people, because yes, it does sound very silly, keep in mind that these are extremely dangerous, like right, this is this is one problem with two and on when liberals just start laughing about how crazy it is and then they're so surprised at January six,

we're like no, no, like it's yeah, like they're actually dangerous. Yeah, because you've mentioned in a lot and he's appecially that it's been mentioned in various manifestos linked to actually has warned very like organized, like I mean, historically it's a big part of like with Christian identity with a lot of these kind of like a lot of them based their like whole historical context of like arianism on this rewriting of history based on um a fake study that

was done in Nazi Germany about uh where some proto Indo European languages came from. And so they believe that like white people came from uh an area that's you know, you could generally say it's sort of near the Black Sea, um, and that it's based on this like strange idea that like Sanskrit is not the oldest language, but like are you funny the gun at me because I'm stepping in you.

I think it actually is useful And yeah, there there is actual because they really tried to push this, They made um a lot of fake studies that you could spend a lot of time researching this and believe that it's true, um, because there's just so much written about it and I think this is like a tactic that they really tend to do with historical revisionism. A lot is just crank out essay after essay, even if it's wrong, even if it's totally like based on false data or

just skew it doesn't data. If they don't care, they just write about it, and that they think that like having more written about it makes it more legitimate. And if that's what we are talking have been talking about this this whole time we've been not recording, is there's just an overflow of content that is so easy to access, you know, not necessarily from these specifics they're talking about, just from the further right. In general, I just overflow

the content. It's like always the top ship on Facebook. To give an idea of how pervasive, even that idea of like where Indo European languages came from, Like when I still went to college, I took the Religions of South Asia course and we had to spend like multiple days where a professor went through these myths about like what was the Arian invasion, which like was there are Arian people that that is a thing historically, yes, they're not white people, but like going through a definition of

white people. Sure they think of arianism as like referring to a linguistic pattern. Yeah, but like in a university course, we still had to go through and like debunk these myths because they've gotten so pervasive within the culture. Yeah. And another thing I want to say is that how of these more entry level conspiracy ideas, it is hard to over emphasize how small the spaces between the entry

level stuff and the much harder stuff. You can have an extremely extremely you know, I'll give I'll give an example.

I went to you know, I was reporting on an anti vax protest and they went straight into talking about New World Order and and Project locks, Lockstep and and the raw Childs and the builderers and like the Sabbatines and David Ice ship just me and this is this is the middle of the day, and like a metropolitan area with a bunch of boomers and trump hats who are getting this like hardcore ship pumped at them or

you uh, we sell that a lot. With the national bombing to like immediately it was like, oh, it was actually an attack on dominion. And also it was orchestrated by the roths Childs to destroy evidence of voter for I forgot that. And then also there was a whole like, there was a bunch of stuff that came up later as a big conspiracy that it was actually a missile strike.

I had to talk my grandpa down from that. Yeah, And there was a video that circulated for a while about then I had to get into a conversation with my grandpa, but at the time was super isolated because of COVID and that's a whole yeah, And I had to like talk him down and show him like, no, here's uh, here's a video from somebody I knew who was like somewhat in the area and saw the explosion and like in there was not a missile anywhere. Yeah.

One of the data studies that I've done is UM and worked on is using big pool and small pool discord servers of far right extremists UM, far right militia groups and UM very very accelerationist skull mass that networks UM and looking at the big pools and the small pools and seeing the app mentioned between them. Yeah, and there was not one person who was more than three

notes away from anybody else. It's very it can't be overstated how close people are from entry to very very very extreme h types of goals and explicit ideologies that explicitly pushed violence. And another point I want to bring up is um like, yeah, there's been much said about Qunan isn't going away, It's just not called quan On anymore. With with these anti vax mobilizations, those mobilizations and groups

aren't going away. They're just going to continue to shift in a ball of their focus and the stay you're planning for it like they've they've they've they've designed it that way. So I sometimes I find the normal stuff first,

sometimes I find the crazy stuff first. But I mean not even that long ago, I came across a particular social media profile that was explicitly calling for acts of terror and attempting to organize acts of terror and displaying acts of terror, which is like an immediate for the

one that needs to be dealt with. However, they had multiple alternate accounts that you follow that path, and on their other accounts they're sharing like Tucker Carlson stuff like things that your grandparents are going to watch right like, and that is done on purpose to try to like

siphon people out of um. More quote unquote mainstream versions of like conspiratorial thinking directly into like you should start exploding things, and even even more even more, let's say left of center conspiracy thinking ties into this is what does and it's not. You know, conspiracy theories are not solely a thing of the right, which which takes me off to no end. No, I just want to back you up on that, Like I think there's this maybe this like implicit idea that the left is immune to

conspiracy theories when it very much is. Yeah, I just wanted to emphasize that point. That idea that of like never being that far from the serious stuff is something that's really really observable, even beyond like a data level. I used to like consult with local newsrooms on how to report on things, and one of the big points I always tried to drill in was like, if you fuck this up and you frame this the wrong way,

it will have consequences. And if this is stepping in it too much, we can come but like the um Dylan Roof. Dylan Roof started his journey to radicalization by reading about Trayvon Martin in local news websites and local newspapers, and then googling black on white crime and his first result exactly and like it does not It did not take long for him to go from I am reading local news articles that are framed this specific way to

im killing people. That's not normal, of course, like a lot of people are not going to be reading local news and then suddenly start to think this way, but like there is a concerted effort by some very specific people who would like to make that pathway easier. It's what's interesting because we don't we can't like define it really as terrorism. What are they doing. They're really just

they're just saying things. They're just encouraging people to do things, and like they're not like they're not doing anything wrong.

We can't really call it terrorism. The most dangerous people in this game are usually not the ones doing the shooting, people behind the scenes trying to go on these paths in the first looking for people who are willing and then so they see somebody reading local news maybe and they want to make that pathway easier for to go from local news to Dylan Ruth like because that's not a normal jump, but they really want to find people who are looking at local news like that, and then

say to them like, well, okay, you look at this. Now look at that trying to try respect to climate change. How do you see do you see a similar pathway instead of instead of some of googling no black white crime, like googling stuff about collapse and and like modern modern civilization.

Eric Stryker, I don't know. Eric Striker has been on about this, and I think that he's a i mean relatively like middle point that people get to like fairly like average people do listen to things like Eric Stryker entry level explicit Nazi and another thing, cut me off if we don't want to go in this direction. But you know, one of the biggest places where we see young people getting into conspiracy theories is TikTok alright, TikTok that cut that cut that we're not we're not cutting that.

That is that is with the pod. Yeah. The biggest entry points seen for a lot of things remains crisis. Yeah. And the thing is this, our upcoming climate scenario is going to give people an easier jumping on point. Well, yeah, that's so. I mean we were talking about how like the mythology of like like black on white crime and all this stuff they're trying to create a situation that, you know, with the urgency that justifies fascism, which on

its own is unjustifiable and ridiculous. But when there's a crisis, climate change is the existential threat that they've been trying to artificially create, and they no longer have to. They now get to skip a lot of steps and save a lot of energy by just planning at the fact that everything is literally on fire and that like that that makes it so much quicker. State, we have to do something. We have all the guns. Now would be a great time to join it on our power. This kid,

this this is our bym Our era hyperinflation type ship. Yeah, I mean this is like when you're when you can't get food from the grocery store anymore because of supply chain problems, or when everything around you is on fire. You don't need like a grace, you don't need a great replacement theory, you don't need anything. You don't need to say that the rothschilds are behind you. You haven't

just need to wait. You have you have enough things that you experience yourself, and it's much scarier when you can't because I can't like like how do we how do we stop? Yeah, I can't find it's harder. Well, it's literally on fire. It's it's a problem and something needs to be done about it. I don't like your solution, but something needs to happen. So what what what do you think on this path? And this is gonna get a whole lot more speculative, like what can we do

to make people falling down those pathways less often? Like like, yes, that is that, that's that's one of the things that we're trying to do on the pot is making sure that people do not fall fold down the the doom pathway because yeah, this that that does get people along down logical like against like like against most types of extremism. Eco extremism is mostly logical. Like you look at it and you say, we need a radical change right now,

and that's correct. Um, it's just the way that they go about it is very, very different, and that's why, like you know, eco fascism is very different. It's its own type of eco extremism. And there's green anarchy that's a very different type of eco extremism. Like these are all different parts of something that almost has the same goals but wants to go about them very very, very differently, and it's so easy to just look around and see how everything's on fire, and I think like the government's

doing nothing about it. The government starts doing something about it, and then suddenly it's the state's two bigs. We're in communism, you know. So they all of like different goals and it's very conflicting on how to how to deal with and like even the very from tactics between green anarchy and like fascistic you extreamism. They also will get two different end fools, right, like you like your your basic amprim what's a very different life than you're you know,

very you know, very stepping in it pilled fascist? Right, A collapse can only benefit the right. A collapse can only benefit the people who already have power, who already able bodied, who already stocked up on guns, who already like, yeah, that doesn't frustrate me with their being anarchists who are like rooting for the collapse because you're not gonna win,

like you're just going to be somewhere on the wall. Yeah. Well, they've got very strict ideas of which people count as human and the goal of the majority of fascist movements is to you know, purge the ranks of the people they see is lesser, and they have they have, they have very precise ideas about who they plan on letting to survive the collapse. So let's let's I think it's time to start talking about and tell me if I'm taking this in the long direction. You know what the

funding someone do? Who's listening to this? Yeah? No, stop recycling, it's all getting buried in the Oregan force. Just vote. I mean, like, what made you start local? Find a local group, find a local direct action group. Investigate that group and see who is behind it. But find start locally. It has to start at the local level, because when should I'm just gonna say, I'm gonna say if the collapse comes or like or no, not the collapse like local,

local collapses. There's anyway disasters, Confucio disasters are gonna affect at the local level. Talk to your talk to your neighbors, talk to your family, Like, try to get your family on these paths that lead to helping your neighbors instead of you know, making friends with the church militia. Before you buy a gun, learn how to fucking garden, but buying a gun and that sort of thing is is good.

It's good to know how to use firearms, basic biency preparedness. Yes, but learn learn how to put on our turn to learn how to feed yourself, learn how to grows some fucking food. Learn how to cook that fucking food. Get in effect all that comes before, like you get to be a fallout character. Yeah, oh yeah, an individual first aid kit. You can buy them on the stores. You can. You can buy them and like some pawn shops. Yeah, I like North American Rescue or North River Rescue. I'm

sure we'll find about. I text more on the poduct. Well there, Look, there are two big things. One, we all have a moral obligation to consistently counter the black pill doom er ship. Everything is coming to an end, like it doesn't have to. That's optional. Like things are going to get bad, but there's degrees of that. We can stop it from being. You don't need civilizational great, we don't need civilization to end like that can be done.

Step two. We also have an obligation to counter the individualist stuff and and and focus our efforts more towards towards community and relationships. That is so so important because every idiot that's gonna buy a gunna have a bunker, not only is not going to make it, that's gonna screw the rest of us. Like this has to be a communal effort and almost civilization thing, Like we do need civilization to change, like we need human society, as we lay out we as has a lot of problems.

I understand people's critiques of human civilization. We still need a society, but yeah, we we need we need places that you know, people are going to catherine and people you know, provide the things that we have. Um. I noticed that that can be a loaded word on certain political circles. So I'm not you know, we're not getting

into like civilization theory and that kind of anything. I was gonna say, I would argue any ideology or ideas just the boogaloo that uh kind of hypes up a collapse is generally one you should stay away from anything that makes the collapse sound like it makes it sound sexy and personal story as I think it's important to remember, Like if there was some massive civil conflict that happened, I think the people who would suffer the most or the noncombatants to deal with it. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, I

don't talk about kind of episode of terrorism bad. Um, well we'll do plugs of the end. Hold put the gun back in your pants, just together. I was talking about historical precedent earlier, about things we've seen in the past with collapses and how people with guns and people who with training end up being the ones who gained power. Um. Something that like I was specifically reading about that was, um,

like the Rwandan genocide. If you know, it was just the three months where most of the Fitsie people were wiped out. Um, there are conflicting numbers, so I'm not gonna specifically say any but um, you know the more recently like this year. Earlier this year, Um was only when Rwanda admitted what it was, that it was a genocide. And um, the people the armed forces were the ones who became like the the leaders and then they were

backed by the government. That can't happen in America. Yeah, And it's like it can't happen here though we are we are immune to this in our spot of the world. Call it will not happen here. And the other thing is look at where you get your information from. Seriously, no matter who you are, take a long, hard look at who you get your even if you're on the left,

especially if you're you're on the left. You know, if you want to hear about something that's happening in an area, look at the people who are actually on the ground reporting with people. Don't just rely on like news aggregators. Especially on Twitter. There's been a lot of bad, very bad faith news degreators on Twitter who are posing a leftist. This has been a huge problem. Even leftists who just don't do that, You just do a very bad job.

People call themselves like car extremism or counters and researchers, and they are really talking about anti They say that they are kind of extremism researchers, and they pose that way and they look sometimes like they could be sometimes like that they're not, but like you know, vary varying degrees of like legitimacy, but like they focus only on

like the left wing stuff. They don't think they don't see it has to be this idea of like keeping it balanced right, like not making it just like a far right issue, which I would argue, I think a lot of other people would that this kind of stuff is more concerning issue and there is like merit definitely to looking at left acceleration, which is not for the record, left accelerationism is not talking about anti fascists. But um, it's really not time to get like well, I mean,

left accelerations will be will be its own effort. But what what some people do posing as um, you know, people who have credibility and are able to um kind of sway opinion, They are not really doing what they say that they're doing. They're really just trying to shift the narrative of of racially motivated violent extremism, which is a big obviously to being like BLM is racially motivated violent extremism, and they want to push that narrative further

and further. I think let's look, leok, let's go, let's kind of probably start to like wrap up and say our final thoughts on you know, this whole this whole topic. UM, I know, we we didn't. We didn't. We did not we did we did not get to talk about like eco defense very much. Anyone has any flinal thoughts on that and how they see it kind of growing and

how they see the state's response to it. Um, that might be worth briefly mentioning, but yeah, kind of, let's kind of go around in a circle and give kind of everyone's you know, final thoughts on the on the subjects. Um, I think collapse is bad, and I think that well, I mean that's my main my main thing. But anything that's appealing to you and on like an ecological level that's collapse related to something you should be very wary of. And I think you should be way very wary of,

like generally everything. I feel like that's kind of like a butcher, be careful about everything. Um. Yeah, I guess in my opinion, idea of total collapse is very misleading because it's easy and disasters don't work like that. You're not gonna suddenly reset one day. Um, everything is going to suck and you're going to need to fight for whatever semblance of a society that you want to see in the world. Talk to your fucking neighbors, that kind

of people in your city, in your neighborhood. There are people doing good it in whatever city town you live in. Most likely, if not, you can start it. Look at your local mutual aid network, look at the people who

are taking action around and get involved seriously. You know, it could be going out into a park Saturday mornings and just like giving out food, talking to the people who are most affective people seriously, if every one is a person, you need to talk to touch graphs to people if you need, like the most basic thing to start on any sort of mutual aid work, trying to find a food not bomb chapter in your They're well organized, they're easy to join. You don't have to put on

block and fight a cop. It's yeah, it's a good entry point and it's it's great. It's great training for for disaster relief. If you have money and you want to help, seriously, just give pass to on house, people in the street, give money, give money to people, give

money directly to people. Yep. Uh. My last thoughts are just that I think the idea of collapse or whether actual collapse themselves, environmental or otherwise, will always be something to a rally behind, Like it is always an entry point as well as motivator from from all for all sides, from all sides, um. But it's like when these things become very silent, like was mentioned before, when they're outside of your door, that's when you know, that's when like

the ideology kind of hits the pavement. Like what is actually going to play out, what is actually gonna happen, and how that's gonna affect people. It's very real. So building community, you know, building connections, um, and just understanding you know, who is in your community. It's probably one of the most important things. Yeah, the idea of collapse

is a romantic and ridiculous notion. Uh come up with people who are like really into like apocalyptic thinking and the version of themselves if they get to be the main character. So first and foremost take care of each other. There are a lot of people out there who want to manipulate you and want to change the way you think about things, and they really really want you to buy in to the end times and you don't have to because you're smarter than that. Yeah, it's it's not hopeless.

We really have to move away from hierarchical thinking. Our society really incentivize this hierarchical thinking. And think you're saying to is sack like we um, we really need to just be focusing on people, like if things people because you know, somebody doesn't have to you know, earn you know, respect and earn humanity. For some reason, we try and

make it seem like that. But people are people. Um, people are in different circumstances because of usually because of just the way that the world is, and um, yeah, you need to just you need to organize locally. You need to help your own people and stay away from the internet. Ship stop posting. Don't stop posting as a stop posting, even though we'll keep doing it because because I'm the good posters. Um, who wants who wants to pluck the pot? You're pought follow at terrorism bad? We're on?

That's what? What is the plot? Like? What? What? What do you? Yeah? We go through, um, portrayals of terrorism and extremism and conspiracies and conspiracies in popular media, and we look at it from the perspective of people who studied this and say, did this succeed in portraying these things or did it as more often does problems completely fail and cause us all personal problems become propaganda? And like, did you make care of propaganda or did you make

good media about terror? That is a thin line, I mean such a thin line. I've made a career out is that is the thin terror line? Yeah? Do you want to plug your fantastic group? Yeah? Absolutely, with you can read anything I read at Anti Hate dot c A and we do just general reporting on h far right extremism in Canada as well as Infiltration podcast. Oh and I also hosted podcast called The Usual Show. Yeah, if you want to keep up to date on extremism in Canada, their group is one of is probably the

best one around right now in my opinions. And yeah, you do, you do, you do very good work. You keep your eye on my home country where my family lives. So thank you for that. Um, and I'm very happy to be talking with you guys in the beautiful woods where we have no cell service. We can't post um and that's good and we're gonna continue doing that and stop using this microphone. So goodbye. UM Yeah, and terrorism at the podcast. With that, that wraps up the Terrorism

round Table Forest Discussion episodes. Thanks for listening to all of us rant about our specific weird niche focuses and hopefully trying to have it within the useful context of climate change. You can follow me at Hungry bow Tie. You can follow the podcast Happen Here pod and cool Zone Media on Twitter and I believe Instagram can follow some of the researchers I interviewed UM on their podcast

at Terrorism Bad. So that wraps up this discussion. Thanks for listening, See you later in the podcasting verse, the pod verse. Okay, goodbye. Here's to the great American settlers. The millions of you has settled for unsatisfying jobs because they pay the bills, and you just kind of fell into it, and you know, it's like totally fine, just another few decades or so and then you can enjoy yourself. Of course, there is something else you could do. If

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are talking with somebody. If you've listened to the past two episodes, you should actually you know, uh, THEO, who is a journalist and researcher, and we are going to be discussing plans for an upcoming rally in Washington, d C. That's has a lot of that seems good. Yeah, this is the things never happened? When, what happened? What happened

last time? What happened last time? I don't I I historically only pay attention to things that happened after May and before December, so I'm unaware of anything bad ever happening in DC. Well, something bad stuff happened there last time. It got it got a little spicy, Um, okay, spicy. But it's not like they tried to overthrow the government murder elected leaders, right, that is what they were actually having too much fun. Yeah, they're just boys. They were

just proud of their boys. A little carried away building, all of the building, that big hanging contraption whatever it's called gallows gallows. Yeah, anyway, we're talking THEO. Do you want to want to introduce yourself? Yeah, Hey, guys, I'm THEO. UM idealist and a researcher. I'm based out of Virginia. Allegedly I end up covering a lot of events in d C because of that, And that's my plans for

this weekend. Yeah, do you want to do you want to give us like an overview of what rallies and DC have been like the past, let's say, like the past year. Oh boy do I yeah, let's just for background. Yeah, so, like pretty much immediately post election, as the whole kind of stop the Steel thing got kicked into gear. UM, November fourteen, there was a rally in d C. UM, and then there was one December twelve, and then there is finally one as most people are probably aware, on

January six. Yeah, January six, you know, obviously got the bulk of the media coverage. UM. But November fourteenth and especially December twelve were very violent situations in general. UM, proud boys, General Chud's, a bunch of oathkeepers, bunch of people's confused memas and pat paps showed up. UM would kind of wander around the Yeah yeah they did. Yeah, pretty pretty fucked up. I know some people who were there when they did, and it's I don't know, it's sad,

like it's really bleak. I was there with the people that you know Yubert, Oh good, yeah, so you I mean, it's just it's so fucking um. I don't know the extent of the disinformation, right, it's hard when you're talking about this to like express a lot sympathy for some of these people. And I'm not sympathetic towards their aims.

I'm not trying to do the New York Times like let's talk to the Trump voter down the street, but like a lot of them are just like they're fucking dumb people who bought into some bullshit and it it destroyed them and their relationships with their families and in some cases cost them their lives. And like you don't have to sympathize with them to be like, yeah, that's

bleak as ship, you know. Yeah, And I think you see that with the dc rallies really more so than like uh Portland's Proud Boy event for example, that is not at all a gathering of like the masses, that's that's a specific group of pieces of ship. Yeah yeah, And like you'd have absolutely like units of Proud Boys or oath keepers. We had three per centers, some local Virginia militias, and they'd kind of be wandering around. But during the day itself, you'd normally see like speakers. Alex

Jones was there. Um got to meet him. That was fun. Um good. That's always a treasure meeting Alex. He's a great guy. It was really fun. He's his neck. It's hard to exaggerate how how he is just as red in person. He's so red, and as a guy who's good at strangling, it seems like he would be hard to strangle. Oh, nearly impossible. Like that's so big. It's such like it's like a fucking train car. Like it's ridiculous how big that man's neck is. Look, most people

aren't hard to strangle. Alex Jones would be. That's not praising him, that's just being honest. So during the day there would be speakers, you know, Alex Jones, and you kind of see people split up into whatever they're specific brand of fucker he is. There's like groups of nerdy looking gropers. Um, there were some trad cats wearing road

Those guys were fun. But yeah, a lot of it's you know, confused like boomers on Facebook and kind of to Robert's point, like I normally didn't go, you know, wearing press credentials because I value knives being outside of me and not inside of it. Yeah, it's it's good to not get stabbed. Most people appreciate that. Yeah, yeah, it's one of my favorite things. And so I'd get to like talking to these people, especially the older ones, because I take the Metro into the city and they

are mean. They're just confused, old people who have gotten in over their heads. But yeah, then like the sun would set and that's when the Proud Boys would really start getting into ship. November they stabbed. I don't know if I'm remembering this correctly, so feel free to fact check me, but I believe there was two people on the uh they cracked a girl's skull, and then on December twelve, they stabbed one other person and Jeremy Bertino

got flayed on this. He shared it, He shared it, and the f d A elected not to prosecute because that was the clearest case of self defense I have ever seen in my life. Um yeah, so, like, like the dude literally tried to flee three times. He drew his knife after by the third time he was blinded by having a shirt bold and assaulted by a group

he had no other choice. Yeah, he did exactly what you're supposed to do in that situation and repeatedly tried to flee and when he did, and he stabbed a motherfucker. And you can't, I I can't. He did nothing wrong in my in my opinion, all the d a's opinion. Yeah, we're all probably better off for it. But yeah, there's this kind of established Uh, there was this established sort of cycle of show up a bunch of weird Republican

politicians that you've never heard of before, give speeches. Uh, you go and kind of wander around, and then the Proud Boys come out and they funk around, and sometimes other groups too, like Januine Worry. The night before January six, there were people from NSC one who were hanging out, trying to cause trouble, getting in altercations all their normal ship. And so yeah, there's this kind of like general mix of groups. January six shifted the paradigm on that a lot.

And I think that's the big thing for this weekend is we don't really know it's gonna look like, Yeah, can you talk about kind of what has kind of the event promotion looked like from the right, like what have they what messages have they been putting out to promote this event with So, yeah, a lot of like the bigger groups have been fairly explicitly saying like don't

go officially. Unofficially is a bit of a different story and fairness, It's worth noting that prior to UM the United Rally and Charlottesville, the Proud Boys were saying don't go, and an awful lot of their most violent members were at Unite the Right in Charlotte'sville. You know, it's some

some of this is a plausible deniability game. Yeah, So like the official Proud Boys telegram channel was like, oh, this is I mean in different words, but we're pretty much like this is a honeypot, this is the trap, this is an op don't go UM. But also like

we've seen activity that really suggests otherwise UM. Whether it's like smaller, more local groups saying that they want to go, or UH streamers and journalists using the word lightly to UH who have pretty close relationships with these groups, hiring extra stringers for the weekend, or looking like they're preparing

to report on something big. Yeah, the kind of the I know, we've talked a little bit um online with some of our colleagues, and there's definitely a mixed a mixed, a mixed opinion on how big the event is going to be and who's all going to be there and what kind of their goal is, which makes kind of everything all the more tense because you know, it's almost easier to when we know what it's going to be, like we like we have a good grasp and what's

gonna happen, and this we're not really sure. Um do you do you know, has there been any kind of response from like local DC officials, like like law enforcement or anything about what they're gonna do at this gathering? So I did see Capital Police is planning to put the fence back up. Um probably a good idea, yeah, yeah,

which like will cover the capital. But there's also a problem with the fence going up, which is the back of the fence goes right up to the end of the Black Lives Matter Plaza in d C, which has been used as kind of a rallying point for uh anti fascist activists, and when that fence is up, it's just it's a funnel. The so it goes like this is an of visual medium. There's a street, uh, and that's where Black Lives Matter plause is, And there's only two exits, and both those exits lead to hotels that

proud boys and Chud's love to stay in. So what happens, almost without fail is people go and hang out in the plaza. You know, Chud's come down the streets. Police form a line, and it's pretty much a pre made kettle, right, So that's like not good. Uh, it's good for the capital, but it's not good for the people that will be on the ground. Yeah, because they're also as is most

of these events. UM, there has been some organizing locally and even you know uh and de fashions from around kind of the country trying to like put out advice and feelers and like what to do for the specific gathering. UM. And I know there's been there's been a decent amount of you know, there's there's always like debate and conflict of around how much to show up, where to show up, you know, how proact people should be. UM. But because this is the first big rally since j six, I

feel like there's a lot of people. I feel it's much more important and like the people have like you know, there's there's there's like there's like a heightened sense around the specific thing. Um. Do you know like how many people are kind of roughly planning to show up on like the anti fascist side. It's really hard to tell, um d C anti fascist actions. I've seen, you know, a couple dozen people in block towards close to a hundred.

I would um, from what I've heard, the kind of main counter demo that's happening is uh, definitely less radical and it's kind of trying to establish sort of a community space thing. Uh. So I would say, I don't know, expect around fifty like people who are there to throw hands, yeah, and a lot more people who are just kind of there. I mean, it's it's this, Uh, it's this thing we saw. I was in d C for Unite the Right too, you know, the second rally, and it it didn't turn

into much of a thing. You know. I think because of the preparation, the expectation, and I guess I'm interested in if you think I'm wrong on this, but my current expectation is that maybe that might be the most likely outcome because because of the degree of and the

unexpected event already occurred and was awful. I'm not expecting anyone will be given free leash, you know, yeah, I could definitely see that sort of Unite the Right to scenario playing out, especially because it is very similar, like there was this massive, shocking event that kind of yeah, and so then people will I think the only big difference is, like in the aftermath of Unite the Right, you kind of saw at times of misguided media focus, but still a media focus on anti fascist activists as

playing a unique role when you didn't have that for January six, And I think that's that's really one of my bigger worries is less so kind of clashes between chud's and uh anti fascists, which is still I mean, you know, that's always a thing that may happen, but also like you have to think these chuds that are coming, when they look at DC police, they see someone, they see the people who killed Ashley Babbitt. When the DC police look at these Chudd's, they're the people who beat

someone beat one of their co workers to death. And you're like, there's Capital Police not same as DC Metro Police, but like in the minds of both these groups. That doesn't really matter, and I worry about the tension there. I like, I don't care if they mace each other. You know, if the Proud Boys and Cops mace each other, then that's a great day for me. But if it escalates further, and you know, we're seeing that more and more the past, was it past to kind of major

right wing rallies in the Pacific Northwest have had shots fired? Yep, yep, yea. Every every reason PW protest has involved gun fire. Yeah, and like the one the August one had, I guess, I guess you could call it a legitimate change, Yeah, a casual gunfight. I mean, the the start of it was legitimate. The right winger who fired was not legitimate, um, But the two people on the left who responded, we're

doing so in self defense. Now, what happened a couple of weeks later, from the video that's come out, was not self defense. It was a guy shooting at somebody pursuing them from like fifty feet back. You know, it was not legally what you would call self defense for certain Yeah, and that kind of the precedent that that's set, which I think it's happened a few enough times that we can't really say that it's it's the norm or

anything like that, but it's still it's an escalation. It's something absolutely is did Like if that, if that had happened in when Unite the Right happened like that would have been unprecedented. It's very frightening, you know, and it it should be. It doesn't matter what you think about the morality of shooting tiny you know or whatever. Exchanges of fire becoming more common is a threat to everybody,

and it is something that should concern everybody. Yeah, I mean, it reminds me a lot of and this was kind of the impetus of the first season of it could happen here, but like the early days of something like the Syrians of Award where it went from protests to exchanges of gunfire too. You know what it is. Now do you think DC specific gun laws um will make gunfire in DC a little bit less likely? Do you think?

I don't? Like? Still like the police always have that capacity if they feel, um, you know, if if they choose to, but more specific on like the right between people, I don't know, it's like no boogs are going to show up or whatever. Um, what kind of talk do you see around firearms? So yeah, kind of just from experience, I think my worry with DC's gun laws is only one side will be armed every time that Chedd's come to d C. I mean they are obviously carrying. I mean,

every single one of them is print is printing. You can tell that they have firearms on them. They don't really try to hide it, and none of them have ever I mean, I guess apart from Tario getting arrested for illegal magazines, like, none of them have really faced any consequences for that. And the general fear among people on the left is well, even if I do come and I carry for self defense, if I get arrested

for something unrelated, that will enhance whatever charges I get. Yeah. No, it's sketchy and it's Um, I don't I'm not convinced in the situation d C is in specifically, that showing up with a fucking firearm is the right call. You know, I'm not in this business to lecture people, but I'm not convinced that's going to help. In the Pacific Northwest, we've seen situations where people with weapons, as on the

twenty two defended themselves and others. And we've seen situations in which people on the web with weapons on the left escalated things. So it's not a it's never a zero sum game, you know, it's not. It's not a simple issue. Is a neutral tool, you know. Yeah, And I don't want to, like, I don't want it to come off like I'm encouraging, you know, every person in block to show up with a long gun like that,

because that would be a fucking disaster most likely. But also like, I don't like the idea of, you know, looking at a line of Proud Boys or something and knowing every single one of these people has a gun, and I do not. That's an imbalance of force that I don't like when things, if things do escalate. No, that that's completely reasonable in my opinion. But I mean,

I think the big thing is just there's so many unknowns. Uh, you know, we've never really there's not much of a historical precedent for group tries to overthrow the government, group shows back up in d C months later, or elements of the same kind of ideology. Yeah, we just don't know. I mean, even like I think that Unite the Right to example is similar, but also like markedly different enough that I don't know if it's an all encompassing tool

for like this is what it's gonna look like. Yeah, is there any like specific players that you know is going to show up or or have like said that they're going to show up. So one that I kind of worry about is, um, oh, I'm gonna get fucking tweets for this, God damnit. Um. So there's a group in Virginia that you may have heard of, b LM seven five seven. Yeah, I know you're talking about. Yeah. Uh. They are based out of the Virginia Beach area and they're the biggest pain in the ass ever um they

work with. They claim to be a Black Lives Matter organization. The local Black Lives Matter organizations have to announced them. They work with Boogloo boys. They were very tight with Mike Dunn before he uh snitched and roped off the face of the earth. Yeah. Um. And then yeah, they come and I don't like the idea of them coming to a town that is not familiar with them, because like they come to Richmond, for example, and people are like, oh, there's b l M seven seven. We don't funk with them.

But they come. You know, they come to a town or groups like this like uh n f a C. Theyre not not fucking around. Coalition tried to come to d C, and I these groups that are gonna be armed, are gonna want to escalate and are gonna kind of try to slide in to like a counter demo or stick around like the more left leaning parts of the crowd, and then could very quickly escalate things. So they're one that I'm worried about. Some local Virginia Militia Movement players

have been chatting about it. I haven't seen really that much in the way of like definitive statements that they're gonna go um and those guys don't really worry me. There a bunch of nerds who like to play dress up in the woods mostly. But yeah, it's again, it's just like these kind of unknowns. Yeah, so just like not knowing who's going to show up and what they're gonna do and where'll they're be and yeah, yeah, like

and this was a thing. Definitely. It reminds me a lot of the first stop, the Steel Rally, where we had more concrete groups saying we're gonna be there. There's a lot of more chatter about it on social media, but it was still kind of like I don't know like what range of the sort of right wing ideological spectrum will be here, Like I know, you know Q and on your Q and on uncle will be there. But like, for example, on November four, uh, Jason Kessler

was there, the organizer of Unite the Right. I literally bumped into Jason Kessler, like I was walking and my shoulder hit him and I looked up and I was like, oh, sorry, dude, and then I just kind of stopped and I was like, oh, ship, I recognize you. Yeah, you're that famous piece of ship. Yeah.

But yeah, So like it's kind of that same thing where we don't we really just don't have that much intel, and it seems like, you know, people with access to more streams of information than us, like the FEDS have been saying for I guess a couple of months now, like we're monitoring this situation where like preparing to stop another January six, which take it with a grain of salt.

It is the FEDS, but also like part of me, a lot of the worry I get from this is people that I know no more than I do, reacting to it like chud streamers hiring stringers, FEDS saying like announcing months before that it's a situation that they're preparing for. A lot of people are very interested in what's going

to happen. I think people are definitely preparing for a lot of different different outcomes, and that makes any kind of resistance to it hard because you don't know if you're over if you're over preparing, under preparing, You don't know if you'll have what you'll do. Your prepary to

it is too aggressive and not aggressive enough. Yeah, yeah, and always trying to like you know, feel it out once you're there is more scary because once you're there in person, a lot of communications breakdown between other you know, other activists that that's what happened in like the last big rally in Portland is people try to know change up plans once they got to the spot, and it kind of made everything a lot a lot more challenging because it's hard to a lot of a lot of

people in block don't have their phone on them. It's just it's hard to get ride. It's you know, any kind of any kind of impromptu organizing at the site. It's always gonna be way more challenged than trying to figure this stuff out at home. And yeah, that's just kind of I don't know, it's it's I think I think the United the right to background is useful for like a big event after you know, a previous event that had a lot of coverage and had a lot of talk about it because it had, you know, a

disastrous outcome. And then I think looking at you know, looking at November fourteen in December ten, um are also are also kind of val able indicators. Has there been any have you seen anything around the grapers or like any of the Fuentes crew showing up to this or they are they trying to just are they are they trying to like keep good optics? I guess I've as far as I've seen, they're mostly trying to keep good

optics around us. Um they as they also kind of fall into the category of like people I'm not super worried about like some of them. Yeah, but in like a street fight situation, in a street fight less so I'm not worried about a groper. Yeah, the most violent encounter I've ever had with a groper was one that was probably five ft tall. Following me around and calling

me a soy boy for thirty minutes. Yeah. But what I'm more concerned about is is Graper is kind of following the in CeAl terrorism tradition of you know, skinny of skinny white guys getting access to weapons and than than doing something uh not with the gun is dangerous. Yeah. Yeah,

and they're not going yeah here finished what you were saying. Yeah, I'm just saying, like, you know, all all of the Grapers I've seen, they're not going to beat me in a fist fight because they're all even even more they're not even more like because your fastest ship. But yeah, and and that and that. Yeah, Yeah, I think that's kind of another thing that's you know, it's always a

possibility of these things. Like I always say, like the worst possible outcome is someone someone starts shooting, like a firefight is always the worst way this could go. But with the sort of optics surrounding this, I I think there's definitely space for more extreme people, uh specifically more accelerationist minded people to try to start something, to try to cause ship. I mean, uh, like I said, I'm

in Virginia. I think of the Richmond gun rally in the lobby day in what was that twenty nineteen beginning of I Forget all Time is a flat circle to me now, but um, the members of the base that we're intercepted on their way to Richmond. Uh. I think about that situation and how other people and other groups that we will not talk about on POD could see

an opportunity here. Yeah, And I think that's I think that's more likely happening in somewhere like DC than it is in Portland's right, because in Portland we have a pretty good grip on who shows up and why they show up. The East coast, the south, um, northeast, Southeast, they have a lot more groups with interested with you know, obscure ideologies that are more think more prone to those types of to those types of like um, more insurgent attacks. And I think people are on the West coast. Yeah.

And I think another thing that kind of amplifies that is, like you said, like Portland has kind of an established infrastructure of chud fuckery, you know. I mean, I'm on the other side of the country and I know the familiar faces of Portland's bullshit, and we we do have that to an extent, but d C brings people from all across the country. I was meeting people on the metro from everywhere from Tennessee to Kansas to California. And when people are coming in from such a broad range

of places, there's a lot more uncertainty. Yeah, well, I'm not sure and anything else you want to mention about kind of what you expect at this rally and any I don't know general advice has since you've been at the past three versions. Yeah, so, I mean, if you're in the DC area or you're nearby, and you're comfortable

with it and physically able to do so, I show up. Um. The one thing that we do know for sure about these events is that the more bodies we have, the less likely it is for people to be able to pray on someone walking home from work or houseless person just trying to sleep. Yeah, the more bodies that we have, the better it is. Um. If you are either unable to come or you don't feel comfortable coming, I know that there will be jail support mutual aid efforts UH

and Garrison. I can send you to some links to local d C orgs if you want to throw it in the show. Notes. Um. But yeah, just and if you're gonna go, be prepared, have have a buddy, uh lock up, bring h bringing I FAK, and get ready

to party. Yeah. I think that's one of the things you mentioned is like more numbers helps in the case of it's less likely they'll be like roaming attacks, because that's what we've seen at a lot of these rallies is that sometimes they don't ever like actually cause trouble at where people are, you know, like where the where the people are. They wait until people are walking away or going back to their car, or if there's no one like that, they just find some random person on

the street. You know. We saw a lot of that in d C of of Proud Boys just finding kind of people in the area that they thought looked like Antifa quote unquote and then just attacking them. Um. So know, the less scattered people are, um, the less likely to get kind of those roaming attacks. Yeah, I think. I mean, it's it's always hard to speculate on the event on an event that hasn't happened yet, but I believe by the time, by the time the airs, it will be

happening tomorrow. So as Saturday, THEO do you want to plug anything? Yeah, you can find me on Twitter. Um at THEO Hansen, THEO with a zero. Uh. Listen to my podcast Terrorism Bad. We look through portrayals of terrorism and extremism in popular media. See how it holds up to the real world. Um, trying to think of anything else. I'll be there on Saturday. I'll be live tweeting the event. I'm not live tweeting that dead or otherwise incapacitated or

I don't have cell service. Service is always horrible at these things. Oh, it's awesome. Yeah, it's a constant problem. Yeah. They were blocking signals on January six on the Capitol lawn, and when I stepped off, I had like thirteen texts from all my friends that were like, hey, text me if you're still alive. It's really hard to tell what's going on, you know, when you're when you're like whether or not it's like a cell signal problem, or if

it's somebody like targeting you in particular, it's frustrating. Yeah, all right, well, thank you, cl thank you for giving us the rundown on Saturday's activities. UM, I hope you don't get shot, Thank you. I hope I do not as well. That's my general feeling towards anyone who shows up on uh, you know, on the eighteenth in d C. I hope you don't get shot. Do your best. Yeah, and if you do get shot, you know what to do about it? Well? Yeah, I have a have a

have a care a minute, you know, have some cell locks. Yeah, that's ideal, But not getting shot is better. So you cannot remember what Try not to get shot, all right. Thanks for having me on guys. Nice to meet you, Robert and Sophie. Thanks to meet you. You can follow us That Happened Here pod on Twitter, Instagram and at cool Zone Media for all the things and we'll be back Monday. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the Universe.

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