It Could Happen Here Weekly 97 - podcast episode cover

It Could Happen Here Weekly 97

Aug 26, 20234 hr 23 min
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All of this week's episodes of It Could Happen Here put together in one large file

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Transcript

Speaker 1

Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's got to be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions.

Speaker 2

Wonderful good podcast introduction Boys of West part of the podcast. Maybe that could be Harry Jo, Hi May, how are you? We're doing a podcast.

Speaker 3

I've been feed a The chess world has decided that my chess powers are too strong, and.

Speaker 2

I'm now being discriminated against. It's a good time, very excited.

Speaker 3

Yeah, having a great time with my biological advantage at chess.

Speaker 2

Yeah that's right. Well, you know you've got to reach those chess pieces somehow, and it's all to do with your hip angle.

Speaker 3

From transvestigators. My wrists are too powerful. This allows me to write down my moves faster than my opponent, thus giving me an advantage on the clock. I can also reach the clock faster. Incredible stuff happening in the world of chess, not.

Speaker 2

Just chess sadly, but the fact the Turfs have got their clause I guess, into many sports, which is what we are talking about today. Specifically, I thought we could talk about how the Turf's ruin cycling, because that is the thing they have been trying to do for some time. It's a thing I've written about before and hopefully a

thing I will be able to write about again. And unless the cycling press just kind of gives itself over to the Turfs, which doesn't seem to have done, to be fair, generally generally dicycling press, I think it's fair to say it's lacked an intersexual analysis of anything. But they've been better on this than I had expected, especially the outlets which are not run by white sis head dudes in Boulder, which, to be fair, is a minority.

Yeah strange, that odd? How odd? But yeah, shouting in particular to Outside for including a gear guide to the gear the cops used at the twenty sixteen RNC, which could perhaps be included as the most tone deaf article ever written. Yeah, yeah, incredibly, and then to leave it up in twenty twenty to not like cover your tracks. You know this is one of those.

Speaker 3

This is one of those, like when the workers take Boulder like no biker will go hungry moments.

Speaker 2

Ah yeah, Boulder, Colorado is a special place for bad things. I won't say bad things to happen because they had not a format shooting. But like social yeah, intersexual analysis has not made it to bolder savvy. Great, great shame. But we're not talking about bout it today. We're starting out with a little discussion of cyclo cross. So cycle across. Are you familiar with cycling across?

Speaker 4

Mire?

Speaker 5

No?

Speaker 2

Okay, So it's a fundamentally silly sport in which I've competed, of course. It's it's when competitors race skinny, tired drop bar bikes on off ro course. Yeah, I would please google, uh perhaps, Okay, I'm going to send you one one cyclo cross video. It is iconic for people who are who are at home. The videos called is joey. Okay, we can we can have mere reacting live.

Speaker 3

The first picture that I saw when when I googled this is two people not riding on their two people carrying their bikes.

Speaker 2

Yes, so this is a thing, right, you get really good at cyclic you train your entire life and then and then in psychelocross, there are parts where you have to get off. Unless you're very talented, you can't hop the barriers. I've tried that with mixed success. You can also you can ride the stairs, but you do have to be a bit of a boss. So there are barriers and challenges which you have to get off. It's called field riding in Dutch, which is about riding. Have

you watched the video? Will include a link in the note to everyone else of it. Did you watch it with the sound on? Yeah?

Speaker 3

Okay, I'm trying to figure out how to describe this effectively. What has happened is this guy Okay, so these guy's like going at full speed and then while the bike is still moving, he's attempting to get off the bike before he gets to this barrier, and he like, he just goes. He does not get off in time. The bike's going too fast and he like she is she's like sprawling. But in mid arees he's flying off his bike over the sparricaane thing.

Speaker 2

It is incredible. Yeah. All the time people are shouting his name, And that's what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to dismount and just carry the speed you kind of you can either thwing your leg through or throwing your leg to the outside and then carry a speed and jump and then hop back on. It's a very strange sport, right, And a big part of cyclo cross is heckling. So the crowd will heckle you, right, they will. They'll do all kinds of things, like often the crowd.

Hand ups are a big thing in cycle across. So, like I've been handed dollar bills beer. What is happening in the sport? Oh yeah, it's very funny. And the moment you're not competitive if you're just grabbing shit off the spectators. So like, like I remember racing in Las Vegas at night. There was a race in Las Vegas at night, and I ain't gonna win right like then, so I'm just grabbing dollar bills and shoving them down my like like.

Speaker 5

It's like.

Speaker 2

People will hand you like drinks. I've had beer hand ups, donut spake, and one notable occasion a cookie that was not just a normal cookie, which you should fucking disclose to someone before you get to Yeah, that was a bad day. I also had a pretty rough traumatic brain injury that day. Oh no, yeah, I'd already sustained the brain injury that hit the cookie. I thought my blood sugar was low, so I was like, yeah, I'm gonna got that cookie and it's going to be great. It

was not. It wasn't the blood sugar. It was affected my cognition. So cyclograss is fun and silly, and heckling is part of it. But like heckling occurs within a certain certain bounds, right, Like you're not supposed to be mean, it's just supposed to be funny, Like everyone's supposed to laugh.

So I think in twenty twenty one everyone was rather it's funny signed part of it too, right, But in twenty twenty one we saw some shit that was distinctly not funny when a group called Save Women's Sport posted up at the race and held what were, as you can probably guess by the name, transphobic science throughout the race. So a lot of people were upset by this, and by their own admission, nobody wanted them there. One woman told the protesters your ship feminism isn't welcome here, which

I think would be a great T shirt. If she's listening, please will license your.

Speaker 5

T shirt.

Speaker 2

And they were pretty rarely rejected by most of the community, which is great, But the bigotry they bought really wasn't a surprise to anyone who'd been paying attention to online discourse for a while, especially with respect to cycling. The harassment of trans cyclists has been escalating for years. For at least five or six years now. The governing body USA Cycling has known about this and chosen to have done

nothing to stop it. Right, So, this particular focus on cycling came about in twenty eighteen when anti transcadras began to focus on the sport because of the success of a woman named Veronica Ivy and that she wasn't called Veronica Ivy at the time, and she was using she had a different name then, but that's her name now, so I'm going to use that name out of respect for her choice for that to be her name. She she won a world championship in the women's thirty five

to forty four spring category. Now, like, I have no disrespect at all for masters athletes.

Speaker 5

It's great.

Speaker 2

I'm glad people are out there exercising. This is not the same as an Olympic gold medal, right, Like the big I would I mean, people may disagree. The biggest determinant of your ability to win a master's track cycling gold medal is the amount of free time you have to exercise and the amount of money you have to buy fast gear and get to the event. Right, what is like the difference between masters is it's competitions for

older people. So it's so in cycling you have juniors and there are various you know, obviously the eight year olds don't compete with eighteen year olds, but up to eighteen as juniors espoires is eighteen to twenty three. We use a French name because you know, you want to be call what is what's what? Jesus Christ? Yeah, yeah, this French name under twenty three, right, you can call it if you want it to be an angler phile. And then from there you go into the elite competition.

Elite competition is it's actually eighteen and like an eighteen year old could compete in an elite competition, so could a fifty year old, right, but it's the highest level of competition. And then you get protected age categories again once you get to thirty five, So so thirty five to forty four forty five to fifty four going ten year blocks, right, and that's for people who are only

of that age. Now, it's the older you get, the less competitive it gets, just because more people will people will be racing, right, But thirty five plus masters sometimes they call it baby masters, is.

Speaker 6

Not.

Speaker 2

You don't have a significant decrease in your endurance performance at thirty five, So like some of these people are still very good, and that's why they call it baby masters, I guess. But like track cycling is not a big sport to begin with, right, that's going around in circles

on an indoor velodrome. Masters track cycling, it's a smaller sport and the amount I know some excellent masters track cyclists who just don't care to go to worlds, right, they've been professional cyclists, are very high level amateur cyclists, and once you reach your mid forties, some people don't care to travel and spend that money and do that competition. Right. San Diego has a really great track scene. Some people who I know very well have recently won multiple world

championships on the track. Like, we have a very thriving scene, but not all of those people even care to go to La to race worlds like let alone travel across the world. Right, So it doesn't necessarily truly mean the people who win Masters are the best athletes in the world for the age group, And certainly I wouldn't say. There are lots of things that make this competition unfair. One of them is how much track bikes cost, how much track time costs, and how much travel costs to

get to the event. But of course it didn't matter to these people, right. What mattered is that a trans woman had won, and she became the center of the cultural war. And this was really, at least the first one that I was aware of, the sort of instance of someone a trans person winning a very a notable

event in cycling. And maybe trans people have been competing in elite races in cycling for forty years, like Wally Cameron was the first trans woman to race in a World Cup, and Money's been racing for a while, and no one said shit, no one cared, right, But around twenty eighteen, the culture war around trans people was becoming heightened, and so people got mad about her wing the race. And since then there's been this steady increase in transphobic

sentiment towards by crisis. It's really the sort of leading voice in this has been former probike grace at Inger Thompson. She's been joined by a few amateur women in various fields voicing their feelings about the participation of trans women. And Thompson has made a lot of statements, some of

which you know, choose not to share with you. You can google them if you want, but most of them will be like she missgenderous people all the time, right, that that's what you can find her on Twitter, misgendering people.

And I think that that is kind of the giveaway that this isn't necessarily about sport, right, And I think that it's really important that people, regardless of where you stand on sport, understand that this is a wedge, and it's a wedge that's designed to push trans people out and away from femininity in a way, from inclusion.

Speaker 7

Yeah.

Speaker 3

I think one of the reasons why it's important is it it's a way of focusing the discourse like on trans people, on like really really weird interpretations of physical characteristics. Yeah, and then this is something that you can use to sort of like, you know, this, this is the wedge that you can use to sort of like tear this

sort of issue open. It's been really really effective at this and it's also been like you know, it's something that's sort of like vaguely plausible, plausibly deniable, and it also plays on a really kind of effective branding strategy that these people had, which is that like you know, if people remember what feminism was like in like the twenty tens, it was almost entirely about you know, not just in the twenty tens, like you even sort of

previous to this, right, Like the notion that like women are weaker than men was something that was like like broadly considered to be sexist, Like that was not a feminist thing that was like like women are weaker than men. And then you know what you're getre You're getting into people complaining about like like trans women like being on Jeopardy or like this ship that's happening in Chester that

we're going to talk about later. It's like, okay, like if you go back in time to before sort of trans arrangement syndrome set in, like and you told someone that in the future, this person is going to be arguing that like like like trans women have a biological advantage in jeopardy because men are smarter than women. They'd be like, what the fuck are you talking about, Like this person is like a neo Nazi.

Speaker 2

Yeah, it's oh that women are only defined by their ability to bear children, right, and and then that is your sole characteristic and value as a woman, Like yeah, and.

Speaker 3

Like like this is and this is something that you know, if you go back to like Simon before God, I hate French. It's really a true it's a truly terrible language.

Speaker 2

That is the official stance of this podcast, Anti French action.

Speaker 8

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Yeah, but like you know, I mean always has you know, like you actually read.

Speaker 3

The Second Sex and like in the Second Sex is talking about you know, we literally were like her famous line is like women like no one is born a woman, like women is made right because it's it's it's it's

it's it's a social process, not a biological one. And then you know, and and but because there was like a kind of cultural victory for feminism where it suddenly became really really difficult to be a mainstream person and like call yourself, uh, like call yourself an anti feminist, like all of these people who believe all of the same ship that like Phylishchlaffley did like have to relabel themselves feminists, and you know, and sports is the sports

the thing they picked to do that because sports is the like it's the area they can pick where they can, like with some plausible deniability, start doing all of this like oh, women are inherently weaker than men and have to be protected from men, like shit again.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, and it's yes, it's very much like i'm recontstractive stuff that we would have seen it not feminist twenty years ago. Now sadly it's being advanced by people

laying claimed to feminism. I guess. Yeah. So, in the most recent sight of Rouss Nationals, trans athlete Austin Killips finished third at the event, local John Brown gun Club members had attended to step in and protect trans athletes where the sports governing body wouldn't, And it was actually a really I mean, what you saw was a lot of discourse online about Austin quote unquote blocking and a SIS woman athlete, and then you saw like a lot of people sort of saying that and like SIS women

had been I guess, like you know that Austin's inherent biological advantage. I'm using heavy scare quotes here had allowed her to come third. She got beaten by two sis girls, Right, this is always the thing like that.

Speaker 3

There was one of these in skateboarding, where like this turf skateboarder was like yelling about how she'd been beaten by a trans woman, and you look at the results. She lost to an eight year old.

Speaker 2

She was outplaced by an eight year old, Like, shut the fuck up. It's this bullshit like and a lot of the discourse about like Austin quote unquote blocking someone like I don't know, but to me, it very clearly seemed to come for people who hadn't watched many other bicycle competitions, right, like that's what we do. You push on each other, you lean on each other. Like if you didn't do that, people would fallo over a whole lot more. It's a race, you're trying to get to

the finish line first. But she didn't do anything that anyone else wouldn't have done. And at the time Turfs kind of tried to make this a big deal but were unsuccessful. And it was not really until Austin won a race in New Mexico, a big race tour of the Healer that it became again, like like it wasn't twenty eighteen a very big deal? Right? So one of the key leaders, as I said, is Inga Thompson. Inga is a very accomplished cyclist. There's no doubt about that, right.

She's a Bicycle Hall of Fame inductee, five time national champion, three time Olympic team member, a Tour de France firm, and a podium finisher, a three time silver medallist at the US World Championships. But I think she's arguably more famous now for her anti trans bigotry and she's a paid She tried to encourage cyclists to take a knee in protest at the UCI's transgender inclusion yeah, which like.

Speaker 3

Fox News finally finds something that they're for.

Speaker 2

Yeah, they've finally. She was actually removed from her role on the board of a France based American protein for her statements there. I thought that their statements kind of interesting. They said shared in the absence of politics, her knowledge and experience would benefit many in advanced cycling for everyone. However, she has decided to dedicate her time to excluding people

that otherwise currently eligible to compete in UCI events. She is also tempted to use our team as a platform for political activity, which like is a very neutral stance, but it's also it's also like it's fine, right, like like our cycling team isn't here to hate trans people. If you're going to use it for hating trans people,

please go somewhere else like it. It doesn't. You don't have to, like I do take a hugely radical stance to be like that this isn't a hate platform for hate speech, like like go away and uh that they added to be clear, Miss miss Thompson is entitled to her opinions an advocacy, but her methods and personal attacks are inconsistent with siniska's mission to advanced opportunities for women.

These methods, well documented on Miss Thompson's social media presence, include dehumanization of transgender people, spreading misinformation, demagoguery, and personal attacks on anyone who opposes her views spellow alert that includes me. She doesn't like me it all, I don't don't be mean to trans people, uh don't missgender my friends. So I did think it was very funny that like this team isn't like the like I don't note like

the woke team for woke people. They're just trying to get along with helping women's cycle and they can't do that if they're one of their board members. Is so consumed by hate that no one wants to have anything

to do with it. So in the wake of this protest, the twenty twenty one Save Women's Sport protest Fliletted they're an official with USA Cycling, published an open letter calling for the resignation of the organization's CEO and the Safe Sport Coordinator, kelsy Erickson, who's responsible for preventing hate speech and bullying. They gather one hundred and five signatures from racists and other cyclists in support of their demands, and a day after they sent the letter to Martini announced

he was stepping down. So he has a bit of a failure of just like there's a statement he made an interview where he said it would be different if our athletes were going to be affected. When he was talking about bands for trans athletes in interscholastic sports, he said, we don't believe they will be which like in technical and in technical sense because cyclists can bete for clubs,

not schools. They might not have done. But if you think that a ban on trans kids playing at school isn't going to affect participation in trans athletes in all sports everywhere. You just either completely myopic or you're burying your bigotry. He claimed he was quoted out of context, but it was part of a pretty big block quote. I don't see how that can be taken out of context. They did say at that time that they're against any

legislation limit trans inclusion. It's worth pointing out that cycling has a body as to all Olympic sports. It should prevent hate, beach, bigotry, and bullying, right, And that's called safe Sport set up in twenty seventeen, and that was following what happened at USA Gymnastics, right, which was widespread sexual abuse of athletes. People I'm sure will remember that Safe Sport, I feel fairly confident in saying has completely

failed in preventing abuse, preventing harassment, preventing bullying. What it has done is is perhaps given a legal shield to governing bodies, so has prevented them getting sued. But it's done nothing to prevent this kind of bullying, which is why athletes and the community you've had to taken it upon themselves to do that, right, Like, if there's one thing you should expect a governing body to do, it's

to make sure everyone feels safe at races. But people were legitimately worried about racing in areas where they knew there were a lot of not just turfs, but like groups like the prowd boys, right, who have kind of hung their hat on transphobia. I know people who didn't go to races in areas where they were worried about that.

I know people who, like you know it, went out of went to an effort every day to drive a different way back to their hotel at races because they're worried about Like, people genuinely felt unsafe doing something that no one should feel unsafe doing, which is playing. So as I said, you know who won't make you feel unsafe?

Speaker 3

I I'm going to say the products and services, and then I'm gonna.

Speaker 2

They will wrap you up in a cocoon like blanket of gold and coins and meal kits. How can do you not feel so safe when you're surrounded by Reagan coins? No one fact checked.

Speaker 3

This is a fact check free zone.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The following and preceding thirty seconds have not been fact checked. All right, please enjoy these adverts, and we are back and we're still talking about turfs. So Saves Women's Sports, which is this organization that put on the protests, presents itself as an organic reaction to the participation of trans women, who it repeatedly misgenders in

women's categories. It claimed that several races in the cycle across national championships privately did the organization to express concerns, but only one, Ev Edwards, competed under the SWS team banner. SWS at the time was not a nonprofit, so it was relatively hard to find out what exactly their financial ties to various other transphobic and right wing groups were. It's registered in Minnesota as a business, but it appears to be a sault. At the time, again, it was

a sole prop run by someone called best Steltzer. The both Ev Edwards and SWS used the race to aggressively fundraise for their campaign. Steltzer, for instance, at the time, was making three hundred and eighty five bucks per month on Patreon by quote creating awareness of males Invading female Spaces. Page has been taken down since then. She turfed too

close to the sun. She also received donations on her venmo page, which is very funny because I don't think she realized hervenmo page was public checked it out in the judgment. Yeah, that there is no there there was no distinction made between advocacy spending and personal spending on that account, I will say. And she was taking a donations and you know, making emoji purchases on her Venmo at the time. I think maybe since has made it private.

Speaker 3

But this is something that like if you ever want to just like I don't know, if someone just like appears in the news and they suck, like, go try to find them on venmo because people just don't realize that stuff. And oh yeah, you know, people like people recently caught like I think we talked about Clarence tom I think it was Clarence Thomas amazing paying his staffers on venmo. Like you can find a bunch of very funny stuff because people people are bad at doing crime.

Speaker 2

Now, Yeah, I cannot tell you how many people literally had things on their Venmo like travel to DC and like on January sixth, right like ven bowing each other for like revolution tacos after they'd evaded the capital smart stuff and no, no, please keep doing that if you're planning transphobia or coups. So much of this awareness that that save women's sports awareness. Like, I think if you're ever donating to someone who's promoting quote unquote awareness of anything,

there should be a large red flag. It's an extremely nebulous concept that very ready does anything to help anyone. But much of this awareness seem to be tied to pre standard right wing anti trans talking points and not the many dozens, maybe hundreds of instances or transist women happily compete alongside each other, have a nice time, do exercise,

go home, and don't engage in any bigotry. In the past, WUS has worked with far right organizations like the Heritage Foundation and the Family Research Council to prepare a guide to quote help parents understand the transgender issue. Again, if you're framing the existence of other people as an issue, you know that far from flaming it as a question, are you? Yeah? Like, I'm impressed the self awareness avoided the transgender question, but like, only by you know, using

the thesaurus to reframe it as an issue. I guess the guide refers to the transgender trend quote unquote and repeatedly caused trans women men. They of course. Also you know Steltzer in particular, it appears anti abortion rallies, anti marriage equality rallies, things like that. Right, this is part of a wider space of painting bigotry. It's not just

about support. Cyclists are taken it upon themselves to protect trans riders, so access of solidarity, of range for blocking SWS protesters and national Championships announces refusing to allegedly refusing to mention races on the team. That's pretty funny, Yeah, it is pretty funny. Also this Mney Cameron has this organization called Ride, which is let trans kids ride and money mate sees wristband which like a trans flag, the transpride flag, and like one of my friends won the

biggest race in the US. It's cis guy with his Transpride ristband on, which is you know a little thing. But also like it's it's nice to see people show up, Like yeah, it's nice to see and like it's rare that you'll go to a race when people won't be you won't see a few people wearing that, like in pro men pro women, both like it's there are overwhelmingly people don't give a fuck. They're just happy if you're enjoying riding bikes. It's not like it's a big sport.

Speaker 9

You know.

Speaker 2

The real threat cycling is all of us getting killed by people in tesla's playing pong, Like it's not it's not trans women. But unfortunately the solidarity hasn't extended to the governing body. So two years after this initial protest, right, the UCI effectively banned all trans women from participating in elite level cycling. This happened just a few weeks before the World Championships. Like, I have friends who had to

cancel their flights. Yeah, it was the most bungled, fucked up pseudoscience kind of half fast, Like it was just a mess. The whole thing was a fucking mess. They had an extraordinary meeting in August, just a few weeks before the World Championships, and like people previously had to have a submit blood numbers to show a testosterone level to compete, right, which is a thing lots of governing

bodies have been doing for a while now. They had certified people, like weeks before this, they'd be like, yeah, you're good to go for another year and then psych no, you're not. You can't compete ever again. And like, this is people's jobs, right, this is their livelihood, it's how they pay rents. It's also like being an elite cyclist is hard. It is most of your life, right, Like you're you've got to sleep or you got to eat, right,

You've got to train all the fucking time. You can't go out, you're going to be resting when you're not training. To take all that away from someone with a click of the fingers and bringing no consultation for them, it's incredibly cruel. And the I'll just read their statement because I think there's a couple of things in it we should pick apart. Obviously, you can't take Woying for it

being inherently transphobic. From now on, female transgender athletes who have transitioned after quote male puberty will be prohibited from participating women's events on the UCI International Calendar in all categories in the various disciplines. Notably, they also said it's also impossible to rule out the possibility that biomechanical factors such as the shape and arrangement of the bones in

their limbs may constitute a lasting advantage for female transgender athletes. Yeah, it's yea, there's a lot going on there, right, Like they use female where where most people would use woman. The barrier they set is to rule out any possibility of an advantage, right, which is a very high barrier. That's like a kind of guilty, and to improve it innocent situation. Right, Like I'd also like the arrangement of the bones in my limbs changed significantly when I was

racing bikes because I broke them all the fucking time. Like, such such a strange category to choose. Also, the requirement that you transition before puberty. That's not the same as taking puberty blockers, right, They're requiring that you're taking the hormones before puberty, like like eleven or twelve, yeah.

Speaker 3

Which which is just also now illegal in an enormous number of states, like.

Speaker 2

Yeah, and even most from what I understand, most gender affirming care takes the approach of taking puberty blockers rather than yeah.

Speaker 3

Well this is this is sort of like, I mean, this is sort of the disaster that's been happening in the last like four or five years on this, which is that like like taking puberty blockers was the compromise position, yes, like that was the position that was taken because people thought it was too dangerous to like let kids do hot, which it's not like it's completely fine.

Speaker 2

In fact, it's actually like you.

Speaker 3

Know, you're you're going to go through puberty anyways, right, You're like like if if you are in a human body, you are doing uncontrolled puberty, and that is less safe than doing a controlled puberty, which is what you know, doing like doing it turgy when you're a child is yeah, but yeah, the young vice position was like, oh well we're not we're gonna do those will do puberty blockers,

and then like everyone went insane about puberty blockers. And now like even the compromised position has been sort of like you know, I mean like when we're away that and it's like okay, like you know, but and then and then like and then you know, like now and then having done this right and it's like, oh well, now you can set up all of these rules that are like require you to have done a thing you've now made illegal. It's like this is great, yeah, exactly right.

Speaker 2

You now have a rule that basically bans almost anyone from participation, like you have to begin transitioning at eleven. It's also very nebulous, like male puberty, Like like what does that mean? What what point are you to finding you have been through male puberty? Like are we going to aftereople to submit their fucking testosterone numbers from when they were eight? Like yeah, Like it's it's just a man, It's what it is, right, Like it it's a you can't ever transition satisfactorily enough.

Speaker 3

Yeah, or like, for example, I don't know, so like let's say you you you are on Like let's say you don't start hormones until you're like twenty four, but but you rearrange the bones in your body.

Speaker 2

It this allows you? Did you now have feminine bone arrangement? Does this now allows you to cycle gender affirming orthopedic surgery?

Speaker 4

Yeah?

Speaker 2

And like and also this, And I want to get into this a little bit because it completely obfuscates or ignores I guess what we know to be true that there is not a binary puberty process, because there is not. Humans don't exist in a binary sex nor egisted binary genders. Right, So I think probably the best example of this would be Malie Jose Martinez Patigno. If people aren't familiar with her. Obviously,

Google is right there for you. But she was dismissed from a Spanish Olympic team in nineteen eighty six for failing the gender test. She's publicly shamed for being like a secret male. She loses her fiancee, she loses her funding, she loses almost everything. She fought and won a successful court battle, illustrating the fallacy of this binary gender approach. But she's not a trans woman, to be clear. She's

an intersexual woman who has androgen insensitivity syndrome. But she was able to They were using chromosome typing, right, Like you'll often this is a thing that you'll still see turf trotting out right, something that was outdated in nineteen eighty six, that like xx or x Y, that is that is not a binary that fits the entirety of the human species.

Speaker 3

Yeah, there's like a lot of people for a lot of other different kinds.

Speaker 2

It's like it's again, like I get it, you didn't. You're not a biologist. That's fine, It's okay to shut the fuck up if you don't understand something.

Speaker 3

Yeah, but this this is one of those things that sucks because it's like like I wish these people had decided to like try to build airplanes based off of like pre Deutornian or something work, because it's like there's no consequence for them for not understanding biology. But it's like I don't know, like it like if if you, if you, if you're trying to argue that like general relativity doesn't exist, like you're you're like your satellite is

gonna fall on you. But this, this is the one thing where you can just like you can say ship that. It's not even like like people people make the joke it's like high school biology. It's like it's not it's just like elementary school biology. And it's not right, like like YouTube biology, isn't it.

Speaker 2

That's what it is? Yeah, yeah, yes, exactly.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 2

But unfortunately the consequences of people who are not them, Yeah, and that's hugely unfortunate, right, Like even we see like Cassa Semnia when a cult case this month or last month, like allowing her to compete again, we found time and again that this notion of a binary sex is as nonsense to call as a motion of a binary gender. And yet we continue to try and force people into

these different competitions. I just want to read a statement that Austin made and like, it's very hard not to see this as them, specifically seeing Austin winning a big stage race in New Mexico and going like, right, we can't fucking have that, Like as soon as trans women win stuff, right, It's fine if they come and then don't win, but as soon as they win stuff. And again, if she had this inherent, massive biological advantage, she would

have won everything, which hasn't happened, she said. I'm devastated by the UCI decision to renege on the policy and

framework it previously set out for inclusion. My journey in professional racing has allowed me to see the world, build lifelong friendships, and most importantly, if my absolutely or something I find deeply fulfilling, no one should be denied the opportunity to chase that same joy that I and others found through racing, which I think is great, and I think it's important to lift up her voice in this and other transathlete voices. In theory, there is what's called

an open category, which is the men's category. The problem is that there are no open races, and that this category, like if you line up as a trans woman in the fucking open category. You're being very clearly othered, right, Yeah, you're being like you're Some of them also will have women's licenses, like it's not clear what men's category they

can race in. But more importantly, I think, as Chris Mosia pointed out, people will be familiar as Chris as the first trans athlete tend Olympic trials in the US. The open category contradicts both International Olympic committeeuidelines on fairness and inclusion and extensive research of states trans women do not have an inherent advantage in sport. Chris is a good follow on Twitter. It's to the Chris Mosia.

Speaker 8

But.

Speaker 2

It contradicts even like the IOC. Again, not like on the bastions of wokeness, people who sent the Olympics to the Nazis have a better policy than this. And yet cycling has chosen to go above and beyond, and in large part I can't not see that as because of the attention paid to this by people who do not give a fuck about cycling, because they've found a wedge,

because our community has generally been inclusive. Like even after this at the World Championships, there were people with trans flags course, you know, like world championship or which trans women could not compete advocating for inclusion. Right, it was in Glasgow, and as a rule, the sport I think has been accepting Like I've never cycled, not known there being trans people in cycling, and I've cycled a lot,

but this has allowed trans people to thrive. And when trans people started describing these fucking bigots to make this a wedge issue and that's why it's happening here. But it's also fucking happening in chess. So do you want to do you want to talk about chess?

Speaker 7

Man?

Speaker 2

This is this is insane, Okay.

Speaker 3

The weird part about the chess one is like I I don't know, I had. This is not something that anyone in chess was like talking about. Like chess has like a lot of incredibly weird and bizarre political stuff going on, but like they're I had, I don't know. Maybe I just missed it, or maybe it was just like a part of the chess discourse I wasn't following, But like I I don't know, really truly weirdly, just seemingly out of nowhere.

Speaker 2

I don't know what is going on with this seemingly out.

Speaker 3

Of nowhere fee Day, which is like the International Chess Federation released the statement, released this like policy that says that like it has a lot of weird stuff and effectively sets up fee Day as like what I can only describe as an gender council, where like, if you want to like change your gender, you have to like submit it to fe DA and then fee DA gets to decide what gender you are. So great, great things

happening here. And then also for some reason, Okay, so chess has had this thing for a while where chess has like there are like women's sections for stuff, and there's a lot of some weird stuff going on here.

So like there's the regular title like Grandmaster, there's also like a women's Grandmaster thing which has different qualification, is slightly different, and this was this was set up basically because like the guys who play chess are insane, Like I've talked about this some of the Bobby Fisher episodes right, like they're like most of the most famous chess players in history are like utterly deranged Neo Nazis or like like people who are even weirder than Neo Nazis, like

like like unreconstructed like nineteen seventeen czarists like people like that, like just people with with like truly truly deeply weird political ideologies that are like unbelievably right wing, and you know, and like part of part of what like happens here is that like just chess in general is like unfathomably sexist, Like it's it's really really bad, and you know, like their solution to this effectively was like to create this

like kind of parallel like women's infrastructure, which kind of works and kind of hasn't in a lot of ways. And you know, like part of what's going on is just like, okay, so a lot of girls, like young girls play chess, but there's this bottleneck that happens around when you're like thirteen or fourteen, while this is twelve to thirteen, So there's fourteen where like the number of girls playing chess just like collapses, right, And the reason that happens is because boys are fucking dog.

Speaker 2

Shit Like this is this.

Speaker 3

Is like literally what's happening, right, is like you have a bunch of sexist, like really sex as boys. And then the product of this is that because there's so many fewer like women who play chess and there are men you play chess, Like there's just like the example, like there's way less like women who are like really high rated chess players. And that's because there's just like like the barrier of institutional sexism to like become a

woman who's really good at chess is so high. And then yeah, okay, so so this this is the sort of background, So like there are these separate like women's like tournaments and stuff like that, and so fee DA, which is the Chess Federation, released this thing where Okay, so they say a few things. One is that, okay, the the the big one is that if you like, if you are a trans woman, you cannot play in official feed day events or women until fee Day does something.

And it's not entirely clear what that is.

Speaker 2

So is it like a testosterone level you have to submit?

Speaker 3

Wait, literally, I'm just gonna read this sentence because it's it's utterly unclear what is going on here. In the event that the gender was changed from male to female, the player has no right to participate in official fee day events or women until free Day's decision is made. Such decision should be based on further analysis and should and shall be taken by the fee Day Council at the earliest possible time, but no longer than within a two year period.

Speaker 2

So it's you can be out for two years. Well yeah wait wait why what the fuck? Like what what what? What?

Speaker 10

Like?

Speaker 3

What what are they possibly like analyzing here?

Speaker 4

Right?

Speaker 2

Like I I is it?

Speaker 5

Is it?

Speaker 2

Like like what what? What? What?

Speaker 7

What it?

Speaker 3

What is supposed to be the thing that differentiates like the genders that like lets you that makes you not be able to compete in the women's category? Like is it like like is it like if you played you aggressively or some ship?

Speaker 2

Like what? What?

Speaker 5

Yeah?

Speaker 2

Well it's baffling. Yeah, that is a bizarre decision like and yeah, like you said, it's just completely It's not even that they're not it's not an Olympic sport, right, It's not like they have to conform to any IOC guidelines.

Speaker 3

It's yeah is the chess cartel right, like they can do whatever they want, you know, I mean, like I know, expecting FIDE to do stuff that isn't insane is like, look like this is the organization that after uh that, after Bobbie Fisher went on the radio in the Philippines and said that he hopes that the government like rounds up all Jewish people and kills them, like they let him back into feed A after that. So, like, you know,

a great organization run by amazing people here. Yeah, but this is I don't know, it's it's incredibly deeply weird. Like the thing I keep thinking about is I don't know, this is kind of a weird, kind of silly story

in some ways. But like so, like the first trans person that I was like aware of it was a trans StarCraft two player named Scarlett, and she's great, She's awesome, Scarlet rules she actually she she she's she's one of three non Korean players ever to win a tournament in Korea, which, like I I don't know how to express how difficult

it is to win a StarCraft tournament Korea. Like it would be like if a football team from like Siberia showed up to the US was somehow allowed to play in the NFL and then like won the Super Bowl. Like that, That's about the level of difficulty it is to win a StarCraft tournament in Korea.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Yeah, Jamaica bove safe team moment.

Speaker 3

Yeah yeah, But like like yeah, so, like you know, it's it's one of those sort of like really wild things.

But like one of the things I remember about that was like she was always, as best I could tell, like always allowed like StarCraft also had a women's division because you know, very very similar like probably even more intense sort of sexis going yeah, yeah, being pretty toxic you know, and like like yeah, like it was actually you know, over the arc of like the like the like over a decade she's been playing, like you know,

like I've seen the scene get less transphobic. But like, as much as I could tell, there was never like a thing in the women's tournament. There always just like yeah, sure, hey, look a girl wants to play StarCraft like this rips and yeah yeah yeah, well more of us like yeah yeah, like you know, and she's also like and she's like again really really good at the game.

Speaker 2

But like you know, but like like this is the thing that like historically.

Speaker 3

Hasn't I don't know, like like Jenny Wiley like in in games like this that are like not well, okay, StarCraft is enormously more athletic than Chess, but like yeah, like you know, like this has been a thing where people Like there's if you're in one of these like incredibly sexist environments, there's like a real like really obvious like both trans women and since women like we're all in this together thing because you get to look at

like the fucking ravening hordes of like absolutely deranged psychos in like the twitch chat and be like, oh god,

they hate both of us. Yeah, yeah, which is also like I think the other thing about this is like it's unclear like who at feet day like decided this, Like this doc just like appeared, and so there's like a non zero chance this decision is being made by men, Like pretty high that this is just like a decision made by a bunch of men because fuck them, and they've just decided that, like you know, just like literally not giving a shit about women's jess for like the

entirety of its existence. They've finally decided to do something, and they do something is make me not be able to play women's tournaments.

Speaker 2

Like right, yeah, you didn't take action when body Bobby Fisher went full Nazi, but you decided to.

Speaker 3

Yeah, It's like okay, this is great, great, great things are happening.

Speaker 2

I don't know, Yeah, talking of Nazis. There was a it was I think actually a a again a nonbine or like an intersex woman who competed for the Nazis in nineteen thirty six at the Olympics. Yeah, with I'm not entirely sure of her, like like external external sex presentation, I guess, but later definitely served as a man in the German Armed Forces. But that could have been a

forced social transition. But yeah, there's a long history of us trying to work out gender ship through sport, and I guess I just want to finish by, like, if you don't give a shit about sport, you have to understand this is still important because like sport's always about like who's on our team and who's not right. That's why we didn't let black people play baseball in this

fucking country. It's why they took like Olympic medals away from indigenous people for violating stupid amateurism rules because they were designed to only let people have a certain class pay. It's why Colin Kafmack doesn't have a job, right, Yeah, it's why people didn't want to go to the Nazi Olympics and went to one in Barcelona, and it was bigger. Like sports not just about being the best to exercise, it's it's a social tool to include or exclude people.

And if you care about including people, then I think you have to care about sport right now, because that is a wedge that transfers are using to exclude people. So yeah, that's that's what I have for you.

Speaker 4

I don't know.

Speaker 2

If you have money, you can give it to Molly Molly Cameron, you can. You can find her online. She will help more trans kids ride or yeah, yeah, go go ride a bike. It's fun.

Speaker 3

And uh, if, if, if, if, if you are one of the seven people in the world who still thinks that Colin Kaepernick doesn't have a job because he's not good enough of football, come find Come find me in the Bear's parking lot. I will force you to watch an entire season of the Chicago Bears, like, like, watch every quarterback we've ever fucking had in my lifetime, and then I will beat you. You will you will you will you will you you will be you will be in a catatonic state after that.

Speaker 2

I just found proven right. Money's website is ridegroup dot. People want to check that out? Oh oh yeah, find find Connin Kaepernick on the internet watch videos.

Speaker 3

Okay, that was that was That was slightly longer of an a total shriek. Now is it's back, And Robert has been coming after me for not doing a total shrieks to start the podcast enough so that that's how

we're starting this episode. It could happen here the podcast where we taken into nowhere's victory lap because yeah, so if you've been following the discourse about inflation over the past about two two and a half years, and especially in the last like maybe year or so, so very interesting stuff has been happening, and the stuff that we've talked about on this show, and then also stuff that's been sort of moving around in the sort of broader

discourse and has now reached like the IMF. And the thing that's been happening is that the theory of inflation that I've we've been pushing on this show, and that also very importantly I that has been being developed by Strange Matters has been like incredibly vindicated to the point of everyone else adopting it and then claiming that they

invented it. So yeah, we're this is this is this is the this is the inflation Victory Lab episode and to talk about the fact that these two people and their colleagues were right about inflation and a bunch of other stuff too. Is John Michael Kolan and Steve Mann, who are both co editors of the magazine Strange Matters, And yeah, both.

Speaker 2

FIJU, welcome to the show.

Speaker 7

Thanks so much for having USA.

Speaker 3

Yeah, and I'm excited about this because I've been wanting to do this episode for like ever since. So the the IMF tweeted out a graph that was arguing that like, I think it's like like fifty percent of inflation and the EU was based on corporate profits, which was like them basically, and this is this is them, and like all the mainstream economists are finally like having to admit that we were fucking right about inflation.

Speaker 2

Yeah, so I guess before we get into.

Speaker 3

What you two were arguing and what your colleagues are arguing, we should talk a bit about, like I guess who you two are, and also like talk about Strange Matters again, because I think it's been a bit since y'all have been on.

Speaker 7

Yeah. Absolutely, so Strange Matters is a this is our kind of boiler plate, a magazine of new and unconventional thinking in economics, politics, and culture. And we have a political bent, so we are broadly speaking all some flavor of libertarian. Socialist is kind of the umbrella term that we've used for ourselves, but that varies depending on the individual kind of members of the team. So we've got people who are anarchists, We've got people who are inspired

by like democratic and federalism. We've got like people who don't like a lot of those labels but are really into like direct democracy stuff. But like you know, the the four of us basically converge on the direct democracy, you know, socialism is putting people in charge of the

decisions that affect them kind of school of things. So in terms of our economics pages, however, we've for the last couple of years been really dedicated to publishing heterodox economists, economists who don't correspond to the usually quite right wing mainstream of the economics discipline, but challenging in fundamental ways.

And there's a bunch of different schools of heterodox economics, like you know, everyone knows about like Marxists, but there's also post Kinesians and ecological economics and feminist economics, and

a whole bunch of different schools. We've been dedicated to publishing people from all those different schools and trying to kind of get them to write in a style that's more accessible for ordinary people, so that some of those ideas actually start not just reaching the public, but actually reaching each other because they don't really talk to each other very much.

Speaker 3

This is this is one of this is one of the big problems is like, I mean, even just inside of Marxism, like if you get six Marxists same we all have nine different positions and they'll all be like ready to murder each other over it. And that's that's just the Marxists, and then you expand out to all the rest of the other heterodoxicontaoust people, and there's a lot of weird and sort of pointless rivalries going on that prevents people from like fusing really useful theories together.

Speaker 11

Yeah.

Speaker 7

Absolutely, Yeah.

Speaker 4

We tried to be a platform for diverging opinions to actually be put into dialogue with each other. And we've definitely I don't think there's been a single piece that all of us have been in lockstep agreement on theoretically,

and I think that's a real strength. Actually, yeah, like there's there's quite a there's quite a few pieces that at least one of us is like, I still don't really know about this thesis, but I've been there have been times in which I've been down on a piece, but it does amazing, so let's go with it.

Speaker 7

And also, you know, part of the reasoning for that is not just to kind of like Lucy Goosey, let's all get along and sing around a camp, but it's actually a very principled thing because part of the story that we're telling with the magazine is how we have these enormous problems, you know, climate change, the whole crisis that the democracies have been going through since the two thousand and eight crisis, the whole and since like the rise of global fascism in the twenty tens, like the

what are we going to do about like the Internet and its future? What are we going to do about these these horrible culture war type issues that like, you know, people talk about it as the culture of war, but actually it's these massive reconfigurations that we have to do of our consciousness in order to think about you know, gender, national identity, and ethnic identity and all these other things in different in new ways that are actually like freeing

and emancipating and stuff like. Like all of these problems are vast and nobody actually knows what the answer is, and that includes leftists. Like there's a lot of these problems that are either like too technical or too complex

for any one person to have the solution. So there needs to be a space where we kind of come together people who are kind of like of good faith and who like are trying to kind of do the whole democracy and egalitarianism thing, and we actually butt our heads together across lines of difference and are like, Okay, what are we going to do about this, and what are our different perspectives and what's the what's the common ground, and what are some little bits and pieces of things

that people have figured out that we can kind of stitch together into something that will let us not just get steamrolled by the fascists. And that that's the kind of space that we're trying to be, and that's why we try to accommodate these different perspectives, even though we ourselves tend to come from rather strong perspectives both individually and as a group.

Speaker 2

Yeah, well, and and I think we.

Speaker 3

Can like this inflation sort of argument that's been playing over the past few years, I think is a really like it's a really good indication of how well this stuff can work. If it's if it's like, you.

Speaker 9

Know, like.

Speaker 3

The fact that y'all have basically had the inflation theory that like a bunch of mainstream economists we're going to stumble over in the last like eight months, had effectively written we're discussing and we're writing it like two years ago. Is a is a sign that something is going right?

Speaker 7

Yeah, we feel really vindicated.

Speaker 3

Yeah, it's it's been very, very very funny to watch. So I guess we should move into a bit about what this.

Speaker 2

Theory actually is.

Speaker 3

And the very very short version of it is that it's a supply chain theory of inflation. It's a theory of inflation that tracks, you know, tracks price increases based on like like price movement based on stuff happening like backwards in the supply chain. And yeah, that turns out to have been a really useful both predictive thing and explanatory thing once the inflation actually started.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I just.

Speaker 7

Really wanted to highlight that it's Steve who wrote the initial essay where we first put those pieces together. It's it's Steve's supply chain theory of inflation, foren' anybody else is So I definitely I defer to you in terms of, you know, laying the groundwork for it.

Speaker 4

Well. I wrote a piece called Notes toward e Theory Inflation, and it was kind of born partly out of frustration over the fuzzy language in which economists will try to speak about inflation. And when I was a grad student, I would like encounter it not just from any particular school, but from broadly speaking, most of the schools of economics. And like it's been prior to this inflationary episode and history, it's been almost forty years since we've experienced anything like this.

And you know, in the in the last period of like runaway inflation in the eighties, people were having a similar reckoning, although they didn't quite coalesce around supply gene and cost puss related theories of inflation like they are

at this time. But like the theory like in a nutshell, the supply chain theory of inflation is essentially saying that along there are groups of businesses called supply chains who buy inputs from each other in order to produce products and sell them to either the next person in the chain or to outside consumers that the end user and over time, given stressful enough biophysical conditions that they all find themselves in even if they don't want to raise prices.

And broadly speaking, we know from empirical studies that most businesses most of the time are very biased towards not

raising prices. If the situation gets dire enough and they've run they've exhausted all of their non price based mechanisms for dealing with bottlenecks what are called bottlenecks in the supply chain, Like they just don't have enough of the inputs that they need in or to sell enough stuff at assert at their normal price in order to make enough revenue to socially reproduce themselves and their supply chain.

Eventually they will exhaust all options and there will be one person who's kind of like the progenitor price increaser. And because like every single and like, what is inflation, really, it's a general rise in prices. What are prices? Prices are things that people themselves inside of firms, it's their job to set and so any theory of inflation needs to start with a theory of price essentially. And like, so these managers whose job it is to set prices,

when they change prices, why did they do it? Well, we have answers going back many decades, almost a century of the surveys of economists who have gone out and actually conducted surveys asking under what conditions would you raise prices?

And at no time did anyone say, oh, I raise prices because I looked at monetary aggregates and I saw that there was too much money, so I raised prices that and so like that was kind of a starting point for me when I when I read those these surveys conducted by Gardner Means, who is an economists and doing this work in the twenties and thirties long. If I don't burrow, I got really excited because I'm like, oh,

of course, well, of course it's inflation. There's so much mysticism about like piles of money building up, and then it's like demand pull and cost push, and like what does this all mean? Right? Well, at the bottom of it, it's what are pricing managers doing when they make that fateful decision to be the first guy to raise prices,

because there is one. It has to start with someone, and it's usually, like I was saying, they've exhausted all of their other methods of dealing with this, such as rationing inputs or economizing like increasing their efficiency and their production, or diversifying their product lines and all this stuff in order to maintain customer goodwill throughout a period of biophysical

stress to the supply chain. And they're just going to raise prices because they have to get a certain amount of revenue in order to make it as a business. So that's essentially what the supply chain theory is is that when that happens, it propagates along supply chains first and then because nowadays our economy is so extremely integrated,

it's not just one supply line. It's an entire supply chain network nowadays, and it's global in scope, so even if it can't it's it's increasingly less constrained to just like one industry or even one country these days.

Speaker 7

That was a that was a beautiful explanation. That's that's probably the most concise that we've that we've accomplished yet at boiling it down. I'll just because this is the problem is that we could go on for like thirty minutes about this. Yeah, just this, I guess I have a couple of things to add that are just like digging out a couple of nuances that I think are important for listeners to understand. What Steve said about inflation being about a continuous general increase in prices is really

really profound. I think the first person to articulate that I'm aware of was John K. Galbraith in an essay that he wrote about that, but in like the fifties. But like, that's honestly not the way that we usually think of it, right, Like, usually we think that inflation is when money, the value of money goes down value money buys you less than it usually does. And that is not just because that's how we experience it in

our pocketbooks. Everything else is just scott more expensive. It also has to do with the kind of history of theories of inflation, because back in the day, the first and og theory of inflation, which people still some of them believe in, is the quantity theory of money, and it basically envisions like the entire economic universe as a bunch of like atomized individual agents. And by the way, there's no like distinction between companies and how households or anything like that here.

Speaker 2

Everyone's kind of like funny.

Speaker 7

It's just everyone's an individual agent. And there's a bunch of stuff that already exists out there in the economy. How it was produced, I mean, you deal with that in a production function. Other than that, like you don't talk about it. So there's a bunch of existing stuff out there in the economy and it's scarce, right, so like how is it going to be distributed? Well, we're trading the stuff that we have for the stuff that we need. And when things are more scarce, they're more valuable.

When things are more abundant, they're less valuable. And when we want them more they're more valuable, we want them less, they're less valuable. So that's kind of like like the very basic universe that they're kind of like operating in. And money was just seen to be one one good being traded like any other. It just so happens to be the one that we trade in exchange for everything else.

So rather than doing barter like like of everything, you know, many chickens for this amount of haircut, you know, like instead, it's like, you know, we choose one thing to be exchangeable for everything else, but it still has a value, which is basically determined, according to this theory, by how much of it there is. So if you increase the money supply, money gets less valuable, which is why you know,

everything becomes more expensive, prices go up. Whereas if the money supply shrinks, you know, then the value of money is higher relative to the goods that it buys, so therefore prices will go down. This was the theory that was developed in like the sixteen and seventeen hundreds to try to explain a massive global inflation that happened then in the so called price revolution of the seventeenth century.

And frankly everyone by the twentieth century knows that there's huge issues with this, so they start trying to evolve away from it, away from the quantity theory of money, because it has no real empure goal basis. I mean, some people tried to kind of like, you know, juke the stats to make it look like there was but like, really, our best estimates of the money supply have no real good correspondence to prices in the economy. It's not it doesn't really work that way.

Speaker 3

So yeah, this is this is the sort of modern version of this is called monetarism, which is like that's real. Yeah, And this is like, this is maybe the only thing I have ever seen even like most neoclassical economists drop because it's empirically wrong, like it's stunning, Like you do you know how wrong something has to be for neo classical economists to go, wait, hold on, maybe this isn't right, Like it's it's incredible.

Speaker 7

But the problem is that they retreated into theories that are not necessarily right either. Yeah, perhaps perhaps groping their way clumsily towards the truth, but not really that right. So this is this is where all that pull and push stuff comes in, and it's it's it's a little

too technical to get into. Steve Essay has like the full version of it, but basically they started evolving away from a theory where the absolute amount of money in the economy is what matters most, and towards theories where, for example, it's the amount of money relative to the

goods that can be bought by it. So if you have a bunch of people spending money to buy stuff, but there's not enough stuff to meet that demand, then that will basically mean that there's like scarcity and shortages and things like that, and that will cost prices to

go up. Although why they do, like the underlying microeconomics of why prices go up when they're shortages and stuff, this theory doesn't really address because it's a macro theory and it'll kind of like fall back on supply and demand stuff or various kind of weird hydraulic metaphors about like well, god, yeah, yeah, you know, it's really like like, you know, different people will have different versions of this that have totally different explanations of why it's happening, but

they'll generally say, if you look at the economy as a whole, if the stuff that's being made is less than the orders being put in for it, then that costs inflation because you're just not producing enough stuff. And they call that demand pull because the poll of basically it's like demand pulling, you know, for stuff that isn't being produced, so it's like okay, well that that causes

price rises. There was a parallel development where they're trying to get away from the QTM another way, where some people were like, well, what's the most important single cost for businesses across the economy And they say labor obviously, right, like everyone needs to pay somebody to do wages to keep the business going. So they just said, okay, well, if the cost of labor goes up across the economy,

then that will cause prices to go up. So that's called cost push, which now theoretically this could be true of any cost. And this is kind of like where you know Steve's theory comes in is because it actually like starts talking realistically about what the cost of businesses are.

But originally this was again a macro theory, so they picked the one cost that's common to all the things in the economy and they said that basically, inflation is the cost of workers agitating for higher pages, which leads wages to go up, which causes cost push inflation. The cost go up, so that pushes puts pressure down the supply chain because it's a it's a cost for everybody downstream of it, so then it causes it to the prices to go up. Now, the problem with these theories

is that like they're very like rigid. It's like it has one cause and it's also like, you know, and it's this one thing and it has to operate across the entire economy, right, But that's not actually how our economy is put together. Because our economy is not this general equilibrium produced by the trading of individual agents who are buying cheap and selling deer to each other. That whole universe doesn't really exist. The universe that we actually

live in is one where businesses are not isolated. They're interdependent. Right Like the the you know, the people who collect sands, you know, from the earth and other minerals, feed into the factories that turn it into glass, which feeds into the construction industry that puts those glass well actually, no,

sorry I missed a step there. You know, it feeds into the factories that turn that glass into windows, which then feeds into the construction industry, which puts them into buildings that then feeds into like real estate conglomerates that rent it, which then feeds into businesses and households that live there. Right Like, that's the entire supply chain, and all those businesses depend upon each other because they're each other's customers. So how much glass do they make in

the in the glass factory. It depends on how much how many windows the window factories that are all their customers order. That's what determines how much they're going to make. You know, this whole picture of the world as supply chains is common sense to anybody who actually like works a job, especially if they're like in a management position where they have to maybe be dealing with some of the supplier relations stuff or customer relations stuff. Economists just

don't talk about it. It's not really in their models because their models are developed from the ground up from this kind of like everybody's just trading as individuals perspective. And that's a great deal of the reason why Steve's theory is so powerful. Now, a lot of this supply chain picture that I'm painting, besides coming from the real world, it also came from a particular heterodox economist that I wrote a very long profile of, called Frederick S. Lee.

Speaker 3

Before we get into Lee, we unfortunately do need to take an ad break because capitalism. But do you know what Frederick Lee would have hated? And it's this ad break we're about to do right now, all right, and we're back to talk about Frederick Lee, who was very cool and I'm very excited about Yeah.

Speaker 7

Well, unfortunately started a little wait, we're not going to talk a ton about him. The only really important thing so he was. He was a great guy. He was an anarcho syndicalist. He was a lifelong member of the IWW. He actually helped recover Joe Hill's ashes from the federal government and properly bury them. That's not in Part one of my profile, which is published. It's in part two,

which is coming up. But in addition to that, he was also a great economic theorist, and part of what he did is that he put together the bits and pieces of this alternative picture of the economy, where, for example, prices are not this thing that allocates resources automatically through supply and demand, and their price changes are telling us what to how much to produce and how much to consume,

which is the kind of like mainstream neoclassical picture. But rather prices are a markup that businesses like set themselves. They're not receiving it from the market. They set a price markup over their total costs of production in order to get the money that they need to keep the lights on and stay in business. This all sounds very trivial, I know, but believe it or not, in economics, this

is like a revolutionary idea. So well then it's like, okay, well, if that's the way that an individual company is, how are the companies linked together? He basically comes to he doesn't call it this, but to a supply chain view of the economy, especially in his last textbook, which tries to create a model of the economy as a whole, and he says that the entire economy is basically just

a circuit of supply chains. It's all the businesses sort of linked up together, forming a closed circuit that loops back on itself. And that is the economy that we use to produce the goods and services that just keep society going day to day, week to week, year to year. So he Lee basically had all of that and that

was the main ingredient that we used. But it was Steve who then took that framework and used it to create a new theory of inflation, because if you have a world of the supply chains, then it becomes very obvious that if prices are going to rise all across the economy, it's going to be because people's cost go up so then the question becomes why how do people's costs go up? And the answer is almost always what

Steve called his progenitor price increase. This this first guy who chooses to raise his prices if and only if that person is even only if that person is in the uh you know, in a position in the supply chamber,

a bunch of people are downstream of them. And that tends to happen when, for example, an input that goes into the entire economy, like energy, suddenly goes up in price or becomes scarce, or it happens when a natural disaster causes disruptions in a couple of businesses that everybody else depends upon, or when there's an adverse shift in the balance of payments, you know, the the Let's say that the peso you know starts becoming you know, versus

the dollar. You know, the dollar becomes much more expensive, So imports become much more expensive. So any business that depends upon imports, you know, will suddenly will suddenly have their costs go up. These are the kinds of events that are like an external shock that leads to a rise in prices, and key nodes in the supply chain that because so many people are connected to them as customers, their costs become more expensive, and that's these costs increase

travel across particular supply chain. So you have to actually know how all the businesses are linked together so that you can identify what the origin of the stress was and see which particular supply chain is traveling down. It's not this like this thing that has to do with a single factor across the whole economy or this or much less the amount of money that's being printed. The amount of money is almost like irrelevant in this situation basically.

I mean, it maybe has relevance inasmuch as, like you know, if people have the amount of money in their pockets that they have, usually they might start purchasing more things than can be produced at this moment. But that's usually

like like usually it balances out normal situations. The only reason why that would be true is because there was some kind of disruption upstream, so that what's normally produced isn't being produced, And so you always have to look at the particular supply chains and the kinds of stress that they might have. Did I did I communicate that roughly?

Speaker 2

Right?

Speaker 7

Yeah?

Speaker 4

Yeah, that was a fantastic summary. I have like a few small notes just to add to it in the in the sort of survey of existing theories of inflation that I did in the paper of the JMC, like very ably summaries for us, like specifically for the cost

push guys. They I think they have a tendency to focus on like macrodynamic forces at work in the lens of cost push, like partly because it is like it really it relies on high profile fights between labor unions and companies that the audience already kind of understands, and it makes a lot of sense that you would go to union fights in particular since they're like one of the big items that they typically fight over is cost

of living adjustments built into their wage increases. And so that's like an obvious like, Okay, if there is ever a time in which macrodemic forces would convene in to specifically to raise inflation, it would probably be fought over like the cola adjustments, cost living adjustments, and like the

that leaves so much of the story untold. Focusing on cola adjustments in these union fights leaves so much of the story untold because it's it's putting like, what's really this incredibly interdependent, micro based phenomenon onto the backs of like one union against one company fighting over one contract, and the way they make it work in like a lot a lot of the modern interpretations of cost push in this macrodynamic sense, the way they square, the way

they square how it gets from that fight to become a generalized inflationary episode, which is what people want to know about, Like they don't want to know about one well, they want to know about politically about a union fight, but in terms of the economics, they want to know

about the inflationary episode. The way they square that is that there's typically like in what they call an information diffusional component to this, it's where and that's a fancy way of saying people learn about the outcome of the fight and then replicate.

Speaker 7

It monkey see monkey doo.

Speaker 4

Yeah, So one union fight or one or one company backclash against a union fight, word gets out, it spreads, and it's all over the place. And that's really like when you look at the economic history of the data of inflationary episodes, although there are union fights going on, inflation is not springing up specifically from those fights in the way that they're describing.

Speaker 3

Yeah, and I mean, one of the things you can tell this is obviously wrong is that they're just they're like, at no point in the US's history has there ever been enough percentage of the US population who are in unions for this to mix, this to actually work, Like, at no point even if you were to be really generous to them and only look at union density and like steel production union density and stuff that are like like an important part to the supply chain, Like, it's

just not enough people, Like it can't it literally cannot be true that it is purely like a union cost testment thing because they're just not enough people.

Speaker 4

Yeah, So in these models, one of the important tasks that they've given themselves is to estimate the coefficient of information diffusional content from these union fights and like, so they will try to estimate that coefficient and thereby out build a model that outputs what price increase we can expect from like labor militancy if you're on the right wing, or company price gouging if you're on the left.

Speaker 7

Between Yeah, and this is this is really just like a perfect example. I think that Steve could have possibly put it better of the way that certain things that sound super sophisticated and intelligent, because you know, you can have like, you know, rather rather pink economists using this framework, right,

like you know, social democratic ones, you know. But the thing is that, like it sounds really fancy to be talking about like the district what was it, the informational informational communication coefficient or whatever like that sounds that sounds incredibly sophisticated, right, but like, actually what it is is that it's this kind of like Nutsoe story about how the reason why price rises happen across the economy is because people are picking union fights when like empirically and

labor economists often do this, like you know, the ones who work for unions and stuff. It's like it is almost always the case that wages lagh cost of living, you know, like significantly, so cost of living goes up, and that that's why people at some point, usually years later, will try to, if they're organized, agitate for for for higher wages to catch up with costs of living. So like the causality of it of cost push, you know, probably is not labor action. Like that's a sort of

macro brain superstition. But funnily enough, this is kind of like like the devil is in the details. Because cost push as a general framework ought to probably be the basis for any reasonable theory of inflation, because the idea that it's costs going up, that then whatever prices now stream of those costs also go up, that is probably true.

It's just that you have to look at particular supply chains and their costs and not just like their labor costs, but all the costs that they have and what cost in particular went up that affects those particular supply chains. Like that's but that's a different story, and it's a story that looks more like Steve's and also a story that looks more like what's been going on in the world since twenty two.

Speaker 4

Yeah, some of the critics when my paper and subsequent papers that we're we're on the same vein as this came out, is saying that we're just conflate, Like how are you guys really different than the cost push guys that you're critiquing for part of your paper, And it's really comes down to this kind of macro brain mecrodynamic interpretation based on just wages or just like one union fight and then some like people see it and just copy it or something, and it's just a least so

much of a story, I'm told, Yeah.

Speaker 3

I mean, like I think, I think this is like the strength of looking at it through a supplush and it's like you can have it, you know, it has the what like for what for a normal person is a really simple idea, but for an economist is like unbelievably galaxy brain absolutely impossible to comprehend idea that something can have multiple causes at the same time and those multiple like you can't literally just reduce an entire like thing that's happening to exactly one driver, which you know,

you would think would be a pretty like not that controversial thing. But then economists can't tell the difference between a theory in which you can have multiple different things that are working on a supply chain and a theory where you can have like a thing.

Speaker 7

Yeah, yeah exactly.

Speaker 9

Yeah.

Speaker 4

So like in in the COVID inflation that was that transpired just after the first of these pieces of ours came out, like it wasn't into full swing anyway in terms of in terms of being like a national phenomenon until just after like there, yes, there there there's a beginning of the labor militancy upsurge happily, but does like some people tried to light like the the people who were predicting no inflation, but then we started to see a little bit of it, started to attribute it to

this like macrodynamic cost push story eventually of like well, either like but you can you can tell that they are kind of hedging because there will be there's like a bifurcation of interpretations of it, like one is the like it really is, just you can tell it's not that strong of a theory because there are two like diametrically opposed interpretations saying that like, oh, you'res this corporate price gouging or it's workers uh causing inflation themselves, which

like if like James was saying, there's a lag typically associated that workers are just trying to catch up with the prices that were being raised by firms in order to keep up with inflation they generate.

Speaker 7

Yeah, if actually, if we could talk more, I was I was hoping that I could actually get into the COVID inflation and it's caused us a little bit. If that's okay with books, because not only because it's important in itself, but because I think this was actually one of our first successes as a magazine. So we launched as a magazine in April I think it was of twenty twenty two, but we've been working on the magazine from like twenty twenty on, so like there was twenty two,

it was March of twenty twenty two. The that's right, but we'd been working on the magazine all through like twenty twenty and twenty twenty one and twenty And the thing is that Steve's Peace was kind of like taking shape, and you know, we as editors but then also as people who are like helping with the research and talking things out internally and talking with other people outside the collective, we're all kind of like sort of imbibing it and

thinking about it. When COVID hit right and one of the things that was rather magical, And there is written evidence of this, funnily enough, not as an article because the magazine didn't exist yet, but as a Twitter thread that I made actually on March third of twenty twenty one. And the reason I'm being so specific about dates is because of what happened where we and I was just summarizing basically conversations that we had been having inside the

magazine internally. You know, that was when some of the news stories were starting to come out about shortages that were being caused by COVID. So most famously the chips shortage were semiconductors, which take like a year to make, like from the moment that the order is put in to the moment when the thing is actually shipped, it's like a year. And if that process is disrupted, you

have to start from the beginning. So the shutdowns in China shut down semiconductor production, and actually I say China, but it was really China and Taiwan because both of those places have major chips companies, and that basically screwed up ships production for like as long as the shutdown happened, and then after that at a lag of like a year at least, and then that in turn caused a

bunch of other shortages. The fact that we were all inside meant that like there was a huge problem in food, both in agriculture itself and in food processing factories, you know, where the raw products that we take out of the earth are turned into the packaged you know, bits and bobs that you know, go to restaurants or to you know, food product factories and things like that, Like you couldn't get people to work there, or if they did, you know,

and you tried to like pay them measure or whatever, they would get sick so they would stop production. So there was a labor shortage in agriculture as well. Then there was a container shortage right in in shipping, where we weren't producing enough containers to actually ship stuff around the world. And if you can't do that, well, everything

is made. Everything that somebody needs to make something is often now made in another kind of or at least another part of a country, you know, that's connected by trucks. So if there's no containers, how do you get stuff from one place to the other? And the answers that you don't So they were just piling up like mountains in the in the docks of various countries, including here on the West Coast and the East coast. So all

of these shortages caused by the pandemic. Basically we're hitting key sectors of the economy, right that everybody depends upon. So transportation, everybody needs it, you know, semiconductors, a whole bunch of manufacturing needs it. So that's that's why cars suddenly got super expensive, is because the chips in the machines that make the cars got more expensive and scarce, and not just expensive, it's scarce, like you just couldn't get them. And then food everybody depends on, and you know,

like everybody buys groceries. Restaurants need it, so restaurant prices went up. So you can see how specific sectors having these problems traveled down specific supply chains to produce the cost increases that we all start and seeing. But here's the thing. All that stuff was happening from twenty twenty on. I did this thread on March third of twenty twenty one. But the thing is that at that point there was

not yet inflation. We predicted that there was going to be inflation, and there was a lot of people, like including left wingers, including heterodox economists, who got really angry

about this because for them, inflation fear mongering. You know, this was in the context of the government printing out all the stimmy checks, right, so inflation fear mongering for them is kind of like something that a right winger would do, you know, by saying the government's printing too much money, so there's going to be inflation, you know, quantity theory of money stuff, Milton Friedman stuff, the stuff that they had experienced in the turn to neoliberalism from

the seventies to the eighties. Right. I understand that fear. But the thing is, this wasn't fear mongering. These shortages for very clear reasons that were clear if you had the supply chain theory of inflation framework, which unfortunately we did because we hadn't published it yet. Like you know, it was very clear that these shortages were going to cause cost increases in very well linked together, you know, nodes within supply chains that we're going to travel down

those supply chains and basically be economy wide. So I said so because I had a hunch that it was going to be true, and that it would be a big deal if it was true, for you know, validating these discussions that we were having internally. So I said, some predictions. One, there's going to be inflation in the next year or two, potentially lots. Two it will be caused by cost increases due to the chips shortage and COVID induced bottlenecks, and agriculture and manufacturing. Three, they'll try

to blame the stimmy checks and attempt to implement austerity. Now, at the time of that first tweet, inflation was at two point six percent, which is like within normal bounds, although slightly higher than have been before. By the end of that year, even actually, I think just a few months later, it was at four point seven percent, and in twenty twenty two it would peak at eight point seventy three percent, which was like the most inflation that

we've seen since the Crisis of the seventies fifty years ago. Like, so we you know, the first success that we had as the magazine, before we even came out as a magazine, is that we successfully predicted the biggest inflationary crisis since the Crisis of the seventies, and not only predicted it,

but predicted its specific causes. Because as the thread kind of was continually updated over over the course of that next year, like you know, people started looking digging in and actually, like a lot of journalism was uncovering that precisely those bottlenecks were leading to cost increases, you know, the and there were other ones that were kind of added to it. So when the Ukraine War started in

twenty twenty two. That increased global inflation because Ukraine is the world's single biggest and by a lot, supplier of wheat, which is a key staple in diets across the planet.

So the shortages that were created by the Ukraine War, by Russia's blockades and also just by bombing and you know, the war disrupting the labor market over there and all these other kinds of things that meant that there was less wheat being exported, which created bottlenecks in those supply chains, which led to the global increase in the price of wheat, which led to the global increase anything that uses wheat, bread,

you know, and other food products. So beer, actually, well does I'm not wrong about that?

Speaker 9

Right?

Speaker 7

Beer uses wheat? I should actually know that, Yeah, I think I think so. I had to do a double take there. So anyway, the point is that this was like a really big deal because like there were a lot of people, including like in the Biden administration, who were denying that inflation was happening even as it was happening. And eventually the kind of shifted to a story where it was like, well, it'll be transitional because only demand pull inflation is real, right, this is clearly a cost

push thing created by these shortages. But like demand pull is, the real form of inflation is when there's like too much money in people's pockets. And that's not what's happening clearly, so we'll be fine. You just have to wait, right, which is not Actually the attitude that you have to take. Inflation is inflation and like you know, the the if the causes or these disruptions and supply chains. You actually,

i mean, this is like the really edgy take. You actually have to spend more money in order to unplug these bottlenecks. You know, It's far from inflation being a product of there being too much money in the economy. You might actually need to do government spending too, for example, hire people you know, and and take extra steps for precaution for their safety to unplug bottlenecks created by labor shortages.

Or you might have to like you know, rapidly invest you know, on a large scale, almost as if you're in a war are in order to create a new industry to like, you know, to to replace something like containers that that that you would normally import, you know, or something like that so like like these are these are the kinds of actions that a more muscular approach

to the inflation would have would have been. But instead they basically just waited for the supply chains to fix themselves, even when multinational corporations and their boards of directors were begging the government to actually intervene more. Uh, which is insane with economic planning. You know, you would never expect to hear something like that, but it was in the things like the pages of the Financial.

Speaker 3

Times, speaking of the Financial Times, we do we do need to take another ad break unfortunately. Yeah, do you know what the Financial Times will not be doing buying ads on this show hasn't happened yet. Could happen, would be very funny, but it has not happened yet. All right, we're we are now back from ads. Yeah, I endeavored to have better ad pivots, but you know, you get what you get.

Speaker 4

Speaking of like what they could have done differently, like they there's a whole World War two playbook essentially that they just didn't chose, they're ignorant of or chose to ignore of, like a system of price controls, rationing and rapid redeployment of resources, to unstuck the bottlenecks along and across supply chains on the domestic side to support the warfront. There's no war going on for us directly right now, but it could it could have easily been replicated.

Speaker 3

Yeah, and that's something I think is really interesting because eventually, like as the inflationary crisis sort of went on, like you did see a little bit of people trying stuff like this, like you saw Germany, if I remembering by Germany did these price controls on uh on, like natural gas prices and stuff. But that that that gets into another interesting thing is which is that So Yeah, I think we should get into a bit of this sort.

Speaker 1

Of like.

Speaker 2

The I don't know how you describe it, the.

Speaker 3

Mainstream adoption of like a version of y'all's theory that eventually started happening, that eventually started to push like some of this stuff, which, yeah, I guess we should introduce another person who I don't know the relationship between exactly what of your stuff she read is sort of unclear.

But one of the things that happens in this sort of period is this this German economist named Isabella Weber who wrote a like fine like mostly reasonable book about like the economists behind the like the reform period in the eighties and China like started pushing well, actually, this is the thing where I'm sort of unclear at the timeline. I started pushing the greedflation thing, although she had a

different name for it. Yeah, I wasn't really talking about that sort of whole thing, because that was really interesting, sort of like turn in the whole inflationary discourse inflation.

Speaker 4

Yeah, I think the prior so like prior to Waber's peace coming out in the earliest phases of COVID in twenty twenty and twenty twenty one, before there was any inflation, there was a group of left wing like a fairly large swath of like left wing academics, progressives and liberals, and also Biden, the Biden administration itself, saying that inflation would be transitory and that we should it will if anything, it would be moderates, but would come right back down

because like, supply chings are so much more nimble now than they were in like the seventies and eighties, and like liquidity sources are so much more plentiful, they have so many Like I'm probably giving them too much credit. Actually, I think they literally just were like.

Speaker 7

Yeah, there was no because that I remember, like that would.

Speaker 4

Be basically have it because actually I'm filling the in the blanks for them as I go. I think they were just saying it's going to be transitory because it

hasn't happened. Yeah, and like when it obviously in late twenty twenty two to to through the middle of twenty twenty three, when there's obvious evidence that that wasn't the case, then they like really didn't, like they went like hard to starboard and said, like, Okay, the inflation that we see, it's because of corporate greed and it just reduces to that now. Yeah, and so it's like a purely opportunistic

thing between of like the largest corporations. And then you know, maybe later people saw that and did monkey see monkey do, but it's it's because of.

Speaker 7

Them, And to be fair, like the tricky thing here is that, like so I'll preface this by saying that, like, you know, and I think this is true Steve too, Like I really respect us of Bella Vapor's work when it's good, you know, and which is often you know, Like I think that that she's a very solid headerdox economist who has some really important refutations of mainstream ideas,

and as an example of the good stuff. For example, she actually uh one of her one of the underrated aspects of a paper that kind of pushes what is popularly known as the greenflation thing. The better part of that paper is that it actually creates a map of the current to today's supply chains in the US, like you know, and and identifies the keynodes you know. And she's a method called input output input output tables, which Steve and I have written about and we're gonna write

about it more on the magazine. This is like the main tool that you can use to do real economic planning.

Speaker 3

JMC has been setting the input output tables for like seven years now.

Speaker 7

Yeah, I just scream about it.

Speaker 4

Yeah, I should make it clear. It's like the iotable stuff is amazing, and I think I think people just latched onto kind of really not like hardly the most important part of your piece.

Speaker 7

Yeah, and that that, by the way, I mean, I don't know if she read Steve's Peace or not, but it is a huge vindication of Steve's piece, which came out like a year and a half before you know because because it's basically mapping the supply chains that Steve talks about using io tables and saying, Okay, these are

the nodes. If prices go up here, everything downstream of them will go up, and those the and and that basically hits most sectors of the economy, like and knowing what those nodes are is like super important because then you can figure out how to protect them, you know, like that's that's actually like one of the key things that you know, one wishes that that that that governments were doing, it would be one of the few useful things that they could do in a situation like this, right,

But unfortunately there's another aspect of her work which is more and this also comes from heterodox theory, but it's just not good theory in my opinion. And it's this whole deal with like, okay, inflation, with prices going up. So why are the prices going up? Well, a lot of them are going up because corporate management sees that everybody's talking about inflation. Now, maybe their costs. They're not in one of these sectors where upstream their suppliers are

raising prices. They're actually getting the same prices for their ingredients as always. But because everybody's talking about inflation, they're expecting prices to go up, right, so why not just raise prices, you know, like like the and so like. That basically ended up that basically ended up being a theory of like, well, a lot of the price rises that going up is because of corporate greed, and corporations

are always greedy. But a situation where people are talking about inflation means that they can that they can basically do a price get away with a price rise that they wouldn't be able to get away with normally. Now, there might be situations like this. I'm not even denying

that that's the case. Like there are clearly, you know, based on a couple of journalistic exposees some companies whose costs have not really gone up, but they're raising the prices opportunistically so that they can do higher payoffs for

the shareholders and upper management. However, as a primary explanation for why the inflation happened, as an argument for the main cause of the inflation, and therefore for what the main solution should be, which is slapping on price controls and saying no, you can't do this, I don't think that that's tenable because there are clearly biophysical stressors in at least the places that are experiencing them, that are traveling down supply where if you slap price controls down,

that's not going to get you more chips that at least not by itself, and in itself, price control should be part of the picture, but that's not, especially in situations where there is corporate greed sort of driven price rises.

But that's just not an explanation for everything. And some of Weber's followers, not not necessarily her, but some of the people who are like promoting this perspective are doing so again partly in order to avoid conversation, in my opinion, about these kinds of biophysical bottlenecks and how they might be they might be undone, and it's and it's a

huge issue. One thing to kind of like conclude is that like in you know, this, this whole thing that we've been saying about the supply chain as disruptions to the supply chain as the cause of a progenitor and price increased by people in the affected sectors, which in turn, through their connections to a bunch of customers, leads to price rises across at least second of the economy. That whole story allowed us to kind of see all this.

A lot of the inflation that's happened in the world since twenty twenty, we saw it coming, and we saw specific causes coming. And now no less a capitalist institution than the imf right has kind of been forced reluctantly, I would say, in some ways to admit that, as Christine Legard said recently, you know, energy played a significant role, then food kicked in, and energy is now fading. You know.

Now they still want to make it about wages, right, I mean, that's the thing that ends up happening in a crisis like this, is that they do want to blame wage increases. But it is quite clear that even the authorities have needed to kind of admit that these specific, measurable biophysical crises have been the source, the main source

of the inflation. And then a great deal of the of the battle has been over who's going to kind of like who who's going to have to narrow their ambitions for their goals as a result of it, capital or labor. And this is where I think VAPOR is on firmer ground, not as an explanation for the inflation. But afterwards, and then after inflation is already kicked in, who ends up having to quote unquote foot the bill, right is there's now like less money coming in in

these companies. So do you give it to workers so that they can, you know, since their money buys them less, you know, compared to rising costs of living, you give them a little bit more so that they can like kind of like balance it out. Or do you give

it to management? You know, Now, obviously if it's management making the decision about what to do with the company surplus, because we live in a capitalist economy, that's a dictatorship with the big owners, guess what they're gonna say, you know, and now and now you have a therefore a class struggle, the distributional conflict that some of the kind of traditional cost push theories always talk about between capital and labor over what to do with these rising markups in firms. Now,

they would say that's why the inflation happened. I think I would say, and I think Steve would be in agreement with this, that it's what happens after inflation, an inflationary crisis kicks in, and then there's a battle between capital and labor over who gets screwed as a result. I think that that's kind of the way that we should think about a lot of the labor struggles that have taken place since COVID.

Speaker 4

Yeah, I also like to add that there's kind of like a distinction that needs to be drawn between companies, typically small and medium sized ones within who exist within larger supply chains, who are sort of like doing what they must, versus large corporations, often multinational who there's documented evidence that yes, there's some opportunistic price price increases that

they are administering at the same time. So there's a mixture, i would say, bias towards the former group, those who have to do what they have to do in order to socially provision themselves. But there's a mixture of them, And so you have to look at like that, who are the price leaders and are they opportunistically raising prices

and are people copying that? Yes? Sometimes, but as far as like the progenitor price increase that we keep talking about, you know, in our pieces like that, very often like and this is born out in the surveys, like when they're asked like for their reasoning as to why they

raise prices. It was typically like for the for reasons like that are quote unquote socially acceptable at least to say, And for the most part, they were just defending their margins, like they they were at risk of going under right, Yeah, and so you have to you have to weigh there's a dynamic, there's an interplay between those that group and then the opportunistic group, and so it really doesn't like reduce neatly into the greed inflation sort of like vestardization

of vapors. Otherwise, really excellent piece that goes through some like interesting and out but analysis.

Speaker 7

Yeah, and I think that like this is a really important thing for listeners because I think a lot of left wing listeners they if they ask what's inflation and a left wing economist tells them because of corporate greed, they'll be like yeah, but and and and they might listen to us and be like, well, it looks like it sounds like you're defending corporations, And I would argue, no,

we're not. We're trying to understand the actual causes for things, and we think that actually help you because, for example, if a company, let's say that you're in a company that is part of this wave of unionizations where you know, let's say you're a Starbucks worker and people want to

start up a Starbucks union. Maybe one of the ways that management is trying to kind of like screw over your union is to tell people who are on the fence, well, like, the reason why there's so much inflation is because of these unions, like we we have to all stick together, and you know, the company's got your best interests at heart, so you like, don't join this union that's going to be pushing for for wages that are ultimately just going

to get eaten up by inflation. Like like, let let let management figure out what'll what's best, because otherwise you'll just end up screwing up the whole economy. And which is not unheard of. You know, it might be something they'll fall back on the negotiations and their anti union propaganda if you know that the actual cause of the inflation has to do with disrupted supply chains and that really the question is who's going to be screwed over and who's not. Within the company, you can go back

and say, hey, wages are always chasing. Cost of living increases, the cost of living increases happened before the big unionization wave kicked off, and we can tell that it's specific causes in logistics, and its specific causes in chips, and specific causes in agriculture that are causing the price of this, that and the other thing. You can even map out your company's supply chain and maybe point out certain cost increases that caused it, and you can say, okay, so

we're going to have to raise our prices. But where's that money going to go? Not all of us should go to management. Some of this should go to us. So this is what a materialist understanding of how the actual causes of the thing worked out can help you in organizing your workplace and in pushing back against the kinds of things that your boss might try to tell you. So that's what I would say to somebody who's like, oh, well,

you're just defending corporations. No, I'm absolutely not. But I don't think that we can actually have power, we can actually kind of like take direct actions that really matter because they're actually going to make life better for us and our friends and our loved ones. Like, I don't think that we can actually do that unless we understand how the world works, and sometimes the world works in a way that doesn't necessarily look like we would most

expect it to or most wish it to. But nevertheless, you have to kind of see how it works so that you can then figure out what's the best intervention that I can make into it, given where I'm at, the institutions that I work through, the coalitions that I can put together, and that kind of thing.

Speaker 3

Yeah, and I think this is this is a kind of like left field, like take on this too, but like there are lots of sort of you know, if you go through like an economic price history or like an economic history of like the socialist period in China, right, like you will find them having to deal with like basically exactly the same ship where they have these like massive inflationary spikes that have to do with like basically these I mean for them, it was less supply chain

bottle like supply chain breakdowns is like you know, they'd get the supply chain bottle now because they just didn't have way through them, and like people fucking that up, Like there was a like there is a decent argument that like that's part of what caused the Great Leap Forward was people not fucking understanding that, like not quite understanding how to deal with their supply chain stuff and seeing this kind of like inflation like issue kicking in

and being like fuck it were to do something that's completely nuts, and you know, that went like about as badly as like any attempt anyone has ever tried to do,

like to fix any problem has ever gone. And the larger the number of people who actually understand how this stuff works, even in sort of like you know, even even on a kind of like not enormously grandeur level, the more likely you are to have someone who's in and it has the ability to make a decision where this stuff matters and you know it and like yeah, you could be like, oh well, like the odds that we're ever gonna be in a place for this matters

is like direct, you're gonna be the one making the decisons pretty low.

Speaker 2

But like, you know, it's not zero.

Speaker 3

It's happened to people before, and them not knowing about it was like a really apocable disaster, and we can you know, avoid doing stuff like that by having a better understanding of like how our supply chains function and what effect that has on sort of economic distribution and stuff like that. So yeah, that's that's one of my two pitches, And my other pitch on this is, I

I don't know how. It's hard to actually gauge the influence of discourse on policy makers, especially when they're as opaque as like the chairman of the Federal Reserve, but it is worth noting that we didn't get a like Vulgar style fifteen percent like interest rate increase, And I think there's a non zero argument the fact that there were other alternative explanations to inflation like around and that enough people were pushing them, like is a reason why

we didn't get one of these, like a Vulcar style thing, which would have pushed employment to like unemployment to like

twenty five percent, destroy the entire global economy. And that, you know, like we could count that as a fucking w because as as bad as things are right now, like the world, the world where Jerome Powell pulls the trigger and hits the like hey, I'm now a monitorist, like I'm gonna I'm gonna decrease the money supply button and Jack's the interest wrapped like a dew percent, Like that world is so much worse than this one. It is it is difficult to imagine.

Speaker 4

Yeah, I think we dodged a bullet of like twelve percent federal funds rate this time. Yeah, we've surpassed Monashers and to an extent anyway, there's they're still doing some quantitative tightening. Yeah, they but uh, I don't know, at least as like a mortgage industry professional. I'm kind of hoping he keeps it under six for the federal funds, right.

Speaker 2

Yeah, we'll see what happens there.

Speaker 3

But it hasn't been We haven't gotten the apocalyptic reaction that we very very easily could have, like to the extent that, like, I'm pretty sure if this, if this had happened under Obama, we'd be in like a recession that would have made two thousand and eight look like a joke right now.

Speaker 2

So yeah, okay, I.

Speaker 7

I think that there's a lot more to discuss about it because and it seems like we're gonna probably have a part two to this at some point. Yeah, So we can probably get into it there because we have actually an essay that we published about interest rates which hadn't even bigger influence than this, Yeah, than these early

essays that we're talking about. But but you know, like at the end of the day, I think that what's important, what's most important about what we've discussed, is this for me, like having this model which we developed, you know obviously, like steve've developed it out of as an expansion of the logic of Fred Lee's work. And fred Lee was

not actually particularly original. He just synthesized a whole bunch of stuff that existed previously, like these pricing studies by Gardner Means in the thirties and pricing studies over the next hundred years from all sorts of different people, you know, into his post Kanteene price theory and stuff like that,

the cost plus markup stuff. But like like having a theory that's developed by looking at the world and building your abstractions up out of things that you can see, particularly in a field like economics that's so complex that you have to kind of start with like observable relations between actual institutions that exist in the world that empowered us, you know, that allowed us who really were just like four weirdos started a magazine right like four anarchistish weirdos, But.

Speaker 12

That allowed us to see earlier than like most people, including a lot of like credential professionals, what was going to happen in the future, at least the near future, like you know, the next like like like two to five years from that vantage point, which was like twenty twenty one. That is really incredible, And I'm not saying that to brag, like, although it is certainly something that I that I take a sick pleasure in. It's also informative because think about all the things about which we

don't have that concrete material picture. The question of how we're going to get fossil fuels out of agricultural production without causing famines, right, the question of what do you do now that we have the Internet, Like how do you govern that?

Speaker 7

Because it's clearly not working under these giant vertically integrated media Oligo believes with the platforms, but it's also not going to work if we put it under the government, So what the hell do we do about it? You know? It's it's like there's all these key questions that we just don't have have even like working models like of like what the world is even like right now, much less like you know, what could plausibly be done with it?

Right to make it a better place. And obviously, like you know, some of this sounds like stuff that the government should do, but a lot of this is actually stuff that social movements need. If you think the rent is too damn high in your city, and you organize a tenancy union that has real political muscle and you actually like have the ability to do stoppages or other

actions that can really like bully the local city government. Okay, but what do you ask for, what do you demand or what do you try to put into place yourself using your own money? Like, what do you do if the rent is too damn high? How do you get it lower? And it's like, oh, well, there shouldn't be rent, we should abolish it, Okay, how do you do that?

You know, you need models of the world, and that's what we've been trying to kind of build in the magazine more than anything else, especially in our ECON coverage. So there's a lot more that happened after this. We'll probably have a part two, but I just to wrap

up the story up to then. So we did launch the magazine, we did put out Steve's essay, but then a really remarkable thing happened, which is that we started getting, like all magazines do, people who came in into the slush pile who were inspired by Steve's work, and we're like, this makes the most sense of anything that I've heard, and I want to build on it too. So we started publishing other essays that we're kind of building on the research program that Steve kind of got us started on.

And although our sort of influence was difficult to calculate in terms of, like, you know, how much we influenced the discussion, you know, in these early stages before the magazine was even up and running. Afterwards, after we kind of publish the people that I'm talking about, some of those pieces have actually definitely influenced the conversation in really exciting ways, and I think that we can talk about some of that next time.

Speaker 3

Yeah, so that will be at some point in the future. I don't all I'm going up put down a definitive date when it happens, because I don't know the world is chaos and this. Yeah, but however, Comma, this story will continue in part two dot dot dot dot dot Yeah, So Steve Jamc, thank you both so much for joining me. And yeah, do you have where where can people go to find the magazine and you two if they want to find you.

Speaker 4

Oh, you can go to Strangemagers dot coop. That's our main website. If you want to subscribe, we have digital subscriptions starting at five dollars and Prince monthly is seven ninety nine. There are also annual subscriptions too.

Speaker 7

Yeah, and please do consider subscribing or donating. You can actually donate any amount of money to us. We're not a nonprofit, so it's not tax deductible, but it would be a really helpful donation because any dollar that we get that doesn't go to our capitalist overlords, you know, for the services that we have to use to keep the magazine going, all of that goes right now to

our writers. And we try to pay writers above market rate for magazines of our size, and you know, to do that is very difficult, you know, we need we need to So if you want to support worker controlled media production that's financially independent. We don't have any big foundations, you know, like telling us what to write or things

like that. It's all like basically small donations and subscriptions, like you know, if you want to keep that kind of media alive and keep this kind of economic analysis alive along with our cultural philosophy, philosophical, historical, anthropological, literary stuff. Then then please consider it because we could really use the support.

Speaker 3

Yeah, so go do that. Yeah, and go read some of the some of the work that you all have done on inflation, because it's really good. And yeah, this is prediculate apple.

Speaker 7

Here.

Speaker 3

You can find us in the usual places. And yes, go go, go into the world and cause mischief.

Speaker 8

This summer has been a critical junction in the fight against Copp City, the Atlanta Police Foundation's massive proposed training facility Indicab County, which is slated to begin construction later this very month. The last week of action in March of twenty twenty three drew in over a thousand people against Copp City and saw hundreds of force defenders attack in mass the construction equipment and police infrastructure stored on

the site in a pretty successful action. The police repression came down hard, but the militancy of the force defenders left a pretty impressionable mark. Later that month, to Cab County closed and barricaded in Trenchment Creek Park citing public safety concerns, and allegedly found booby traps police did an exhaustive sweep of the forest and established a relatively firm

control of the territory. After a year and a half of there being a nearly continuous presence in the Mulani by forest defenders, now the police began a forest occupation

of their own. During the month that followed, the Atlanta Police Foundation, or the APF, rushed to clear cut around ninety acres of the Mulani Forest, seemingly in a ploy to show investors and the city that they are committed to the project and to crush the spirits of those who spent years opposing the facility and defending the forest. People then set their sights on the Atlanta's City Council, who in early June was to vote on whether or

not to provide taxpayer funding for the APF's project. Over twenty three hours of public comment across multiple days, almost universally against copp City, culminated at the June fifth City Council meeting, which lasted into the early hours of the next morning. Despite the record breaking turnout opposing the facility, in the early morning of Tuesday, June sixth, the Atlanta City Council voted eleven to four in favor of the sixty seven million dollar funding package to build cop City.

The next day, a group of community organizers announced a referendum campaign to collect tens of thousands of petition signatures from Atlanta voters to put the cop City land lease on the upcoming ballot. City council approving public funds for cop City was certainly disappointing, but not quite unexpected, because another Week of action to stop cop City was already planned for later that same month. This is it could

happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. In this three part series, I'll be talking about what's been happening in Atlanta this summer to stop cop City. If you want to hear more about the background of this movement. In the month of May, we put out a five part series on the Week of Action from that spring, along with the few other previous Defend the Forest and Stop Cup City mini series published over the course of the last year

and a half. With much of the forest already destroyed and no easy access to Entrenchment Creek Park, this Week of Action in June was set to be very unlike any that had come before. The kickoff rally was to begin on Saturday, June twenty fourth, at Brownwood Park in East Atlanta. I made my way there and met up

with Matt from the Atlantic Community Press Collective. My first feeling walking in is like it felt very society of the spectacle in terms of like the ratio of cameras to participants was the most extreme that I've really ever ever seen for like, you know, a week of action, like there was there was an outside of like a press conference, yeah, and like it felt like there was so many just cameras looming around, and it's like there's so many people trying to make a similar from the

movements to sell back to other people at this point in time, and like there's just a very like that's just a very large, pervasive feeling, and that combined with the more kind of the more liberalization of certain of certain aspects, again compared to the last week of Action, which felt there was a strong militant continuent.

Speaker 5

And like the liberal continued was still there.

Speaker 11

If you build it, we will burn it.

Speaker 8

And that's not the vibe here. That's not the vibe here. There's definitely a big separation in terms of what types of people are at what side of the park.

Speaker 11

Right now.

Speaker 8

There's a more like more like forested section of the park with a creek on the south side, which is where people are setting up. Some camping sites have of a kitchen that's where the well content is. And then there's the other side of the park that has like the rec center and the playground, which seems more like family friendly stuff.

Speaker 5

Yeah, there are kids there, there's the popcorn setup.

Speaker 8

It's more like house so there is a bouncy house, which is great return.

Speaker 11

They couldn't, they couldn't keep this moving down. I won't.

Speaker 8

I won't rest until destroyed until the contrastory Everybounty Castle in Atlanta, till every bouncy castle is deflated.

Speaker 5

That is, that is the new movement's so good.

Speaker 8

In contrast to the last kickoff rally at Gresham Park, which felt very unified, this time there was a noticeable separation in terms of what types of people are on the two sides of the park. People wearing camouflage and masks were more situated on the south side of the park where tents were being set up, versus people by the playground who were going around with the referendum sign up sheet and where all the food was being handed out.

Speaker 5

It's so separated the game, the two groups.

Speaker 8

Cannot cannot, cannot counsel each other, and even like people like turnout seemed to be a bit lower than some people expected, and it was definitely much lower compared to the previous few weeks of action, and overall the rally was very muted and lacked a sense of energy or focus, Like the rallies start at eleven, which kind of kind of like nothing happened, like it just it felt very directionless, felt like people did not quite know why they were there at this point in.

Speaker 5

Times, almost Nune before anyone really spoke on the bullhorn, and the music didn't start until noon and then what was it like a half hour ago, so like twelve thirty probably when when the first like speaker said anything from the Faith Coalition, I don't know.

Speaker 8

So far, the rally kind of feels like a microcosmum of the entire movement at this point, just not quite sure where to direct the energy to.

Speaker 11

There's a feeling that like people should do something, but they don't quite know how to.

Speaker 8

They haven't decided how that should be directed yet, and so like there's some people showing up, but it's just like it feels kind of stagnant and like there's this there's this need to evolve right now.

Speaker 3

And I don't know.

Speaker 8

I think maybe people got burnt out from this council things that there's a lot of energy being pumped into that.

Speaker 5

Yeah, and then I guess some people that.

Speaker 8

Was like three weeks of pushing energy and that and that was only like two weeks ago, like that that's still very recently. Three weeks now, it still feels it still feels very raw. Walking down the pathway on the south side of Brownwood you can see people setting up tents, carrying camping supplies and.

Speaker 3

Big jugs of water.

Speaker 8

Other people were assembling a makeshift kitchen in the tree line, and all of that was physically reminiscent of the last week of action. But being four miles away from the forest at Brownwood Park instead of the wallani impacted the feeling on the ground. We're both we're so far away from the forest. But if there's like that separation of space, like it feels so distant.

Speaker 5

And distant, even more than than Gresham Park, even with the Gresham Like if this were happening in Gresham Park, I think that might even be a different feeling, yeah, because at least you're attached to your Luilani.

Speaker 8

There was more determination on like the south side of of the park and you could feel like the people want at least people want to do something physically, and they were. But it's even still unclear how it's going to get directed towards, like like what is this doing.

Speaker 11

To stop prop city right now? Like that is that's the big thing.

Speaker 8

Is like people are trying to figure that out and there's people here, but like what are what are people actually going to be doing?

Speaker 5

Like I that's that's the question that is You're going to be un answered at least today.

Speaker 8

I would say the last week of action in March was very important in terms of setting the stage for what the next few months would look like. The direct action that happened on Sunday during the music festival was very important and successful, but also carried large ramifications for how the rest of the movement would be shaped in terms of the police repression and increase police presence in

the forest. The weeks of action definitely have this ability to affect how the movement as a whole evolves in the subsequent months. On Saturday, there were worries that if things were simply going to continue to be like this kickoff rally, that wouldn't be a positive direction and would be a bad sign. It's just so I mean, it's hard not to convey this to the to the last Week of Action kickoff rally at Gresham, which just felt so different like that, there was like almost ten times

as many people. There was like a feeling of like motion. There was a feeling of like we can, we have we have to go do a thing, and we're gonna do it no matter what, Like we don't know it's gonna be on the other side of the tunnel, but we're going there to do it anyway.

Speaker 5

We're gonna find it out together.

Speaker 11

And there was that was a lot of determination, and then there was a lot.

Speaker 8

Of like there was like a pointed nes like they knew where they were going, and this does not It lacks that pointedness. It feels like people aren't quite sure why they're here or what to do at this point in time. And if the movement wants to be able to continue in its goals, it has to find some way to evolve in the next two months, as construction is gonna about and.

Speaker 11

I guess this was weak, kind.

Speaker 5

Of wild the bell weather either well, either a bell weather or a learning experience. Yeah, it might not be any sort of death now, but it will have to be a learning experience probably. Yeah.

Speaker 8

That's that's kind of most of most of my thoughts so far based on walking through both places.

Speaker 11

There's just not much else talkulaks and how much is happening?

Speaker 7

Like it?

Speaker 8

Soon enough, however, other things did start happening thanks to the Atlanta Police Department, but throughout that afternoon things remained mostly low key, and as the day went on, the gathering at Brownwood Park turned into a community barbecue and people started to get a much more clear idea of what the expectations for that day were. As people settled into the park, there seemed to be any big anticipation for what everyone was going to be doing that first day.

There wasn't supposed to be a vigil for Tortighita in the park that evening, which was in terrupted by Atlanta Police officers who swept through the park issuing a quote unquote friendly reminder that the park closed at eleven pm.

All right, it's around eight thirty, about forty police officers just walked through Brownwood Park telling people that are gathered here that the park closes at eleven and everyone's basically anticipating that police are going to try to sweep the entirety of the park, including the sections where people are trying to camp out. Around eleven PM, the cops were walking south through the park as the crowd was walking

and chanting along the way as well. Cops left under the heels of like maybe seventy five to two hundred people who were chanting along the south side of Brownwood. They've been staging around Brownwood Park and Portland Avenue for the past hour or so. They had like twenty thirty cars,

it's around forty fifty officers. People decided they did not wish to stand their ground and fight off a possible police raid at Brownwood Park, so they spent the next few hours packing up all the supplies and equipment that they just spent all day setting up, and then evacuated from the area. Okay, it is eleven ten PM. It seems like the cops essentially just did what I'm referring

to as advanced bluffing. So they walk through it on eight thirty warning people hey, park closes at eleven, which very much, very much indicating that, hey, we're.

Speaker 11

Going to sweep through and fuck with your shit if you're still here.

Speaker 8

So the next few hours people spent time you know, packing up, breaking down the tents, of leaving, heading to other locations. And then at eleven, we kind of just expected police to do a standard sweep through, you know, destroy anything they find. If they find people, tell them

to leave or else get arrested. Standard stuff. At this point, there's about seven or eight police cruisers staged around the south side of the park, but they're not actually sweeping through because it's pretty clear that there's like no one actually in the park at this point. It's just very clearly like empty and quiet, So I don't even I

don't even think cops are going to sweep through. It's it's been already like ten to fifteen minutes, so we expected them to kind of sweep on the hour, but they just like don't need to because it's very clear that no one's in the park, so they just kind of like successfully bluffed themselves into getting everyone to leave.

I mean, if there were people still here in visible capacity, I'm sure police would sweep through, but there's really there's no one visible in the park from many of like the perimeters around, so they're not even gonna bother sweeping through. But yeah, it looks like this is the end of Brownwood Day one and the very kind of low key kickoff rally. Still, the week definitely is lacking a sense

of direction. There's been a cab swat doing perimeter sweeps around the Wailani Forest and the round Grressian Park where there's some future events planned. We will see how that plays out in these next few days. It certainly seems like police wanted to make some show of force early on in the week to stifle the week of action. The threat of array the very first tonight was indeed disruptive to the logistics for the week, but ultimately peopeople were able to band together to keep each other safe

and cared for. During this current general sense of directionlessness, there were a lot of questions on how the movement will change during this turning point. With little in the way of obvious answers or new paths of resistance, The following Sunday and Monday of the week continued to be mostly low key. People used those days to facilitate workshops and discussions to work through the shift the movement was

going through. At the end of the week, I sat down with Matt in East Atlanta Village to talk about the week as a whole and compare notes. Here's a bit of our conversation talking about the discussions that started happening during those first few days. This was a week

of discussions, like it was, it really was. There was a lot of meetings, There was a lot of discussions happening, people figuring out what do we do, Like if we actually want to stop cop City and it's going to get built in these next few months, like now.

Speaker 11

Is the time to figure out what the fuck to do next.

Speaker 8

So people have been having those discussions this week, and if anything, the Week of Action has been useful in this in this sense that it's brought a lot of people together so they can have these generative conversations. And there was a lot more conversations during this week than

last week. There was one on like what the state of the movement is now, especially with the referendum taking up more visibility, how are like radical is going to navigate this space and this movement with a lot of things in flux, and I think that that was definitely my first read. Even even on the Cookoff rally, I felt like there's a lot of people like not sure what to do, as very directionless. People were asking a lot of questions, and more questions were being asked all

throughout the week. There's a lot of discussions, a lot of meetings about like what do we do now, Like if construction is going to start in the next two months, like what is this movement going to do? Like that people can chant if you build it, we will burn it.

But chanting it and doing it two different things. And the movement is it's going to go through a period of evolution and then in these next few months, and with all of those questions being asked, I feel like the answer to those questions is going to be the actions people do take in these next few months. In the aftermath of the clear cutting, it felt like in some ways that the window of possibility for this movement

was closing as options seemed to be getting smaller. More people started pursuing the referendum as a potential means of stopping Copcity, but those in the more militant anarchist wing of the movement were left questioning, after two years of employing a diversity of tactics largely led by direct action, if it's the right and move to switch to an electoral strategy now when the situation is approaching its most dire but since it is happening whether they like it

or not, anarchists were wondering, what can people do so that the referendum doesn't completely dominate the narrative of the

movement or disincentivize other evolutions of the struggle. Now, obviously, a group of people pursuing a referendum does not prohibit other people from engaging in direct action, but there still were worries that the referendum could become a sort of release mechanism for the move both in terms of new people's involvement being pushed toward this more liberalized electoral strategy instead of radical action, or if the petition or even potential ballot vote fails, then that being used as an

indicator that most people in the city actually do want copcity. But through all this, what anarchists can do, and what they typically do, is to encourage radical autonomy and self determination, regardless of electoral strategies or outcomes, whether or not a petition gets sixty some thousand signatures does not affect a burning construction vehicle. Just as these sort of discussions were happening.

It's kind of fitting that on Monday, June twenty sixth, we saw the first communication in months claiming responsibility for equipment sabotage. After the last week of Action in March and subsequent police raids on the forest, increased security, the rapid clear cutting and big push for city council public comment followed by the start of the referendum. Throughout that series of events, there really hadn't been much in the way of nocturnal direct action sabotage happening in Atlanta or

across the country. In solidarity once a core component of this movement was seriously lacking in the months leading up to this summer, and then suddenly, after the June Week of Action's mostly uneventful start, a post went up on the sketchu web site scene stott no blogs dot org claiming that a group of anonymous individuals snuck into a subcontractor's machine storage lot and poured hydrochloric acid into the

oil tanks of three vehicles. The target was Brent Scarborough, company, a Georgia based subcontractor who was hired to clear cut the Wallani forest and was currently engaged in mass land grading on the site. I drove by the site on Monday and I saw like over twenty machines like actively working on the land.

Speaker 5

Very avatar was.

Speaker 8

Yes, y or Fer and Gully the superior film, but no, like it's like the site's being very actively worked on. Like I've never seen that many machines doing active work, like all moving at the same time. Early Monday morning, the Stop Cop City referendum put out a strong statement of solidarity with quote all tactics on the road to collective liberation unquote and openly rejected the state's framing of

quote unquote violent and nonviolent resistance. To briefly quote a few of the last sentences of the statement, quote, the cop City vote referendum campaign is grounded in the values of abolitionist organizing and racial and environmental justice. We also recognize our chosen tactic is a single intervention in a

wide rainbow of fighting state repression. We seek to use the Cop City referendum to leverage local power, educate and activate our communities, and build networks that can strengthen our city and future mobilizations. The referendum is one piece of a vibrant, into multifaceted movement, one that defies respectable categorization

as well as its state violence and repression. The Cop City Vote Referendum Coalition stands in solidarity and full support of the Stop Cop City Week of Action, the larger movement and abolitionist organizers and activists across this city.

Speaker 5

Unintentionally, these two things coincided. There was the release of the scenes like the first sabotage in months, and then the referendum released that same day, the solidarity statement for all Yes actions taken to stock Coop City. No, just think that needs the statement itself needs to be highlighted, and yeah, I think it seems like they're going to stick to that.

Speaker 8

The solidarity statement was widely applauded and seen as a good sign regarding the referendum's place in the larger fight against Cop City and how it was not intending to take space away from other aspects of the movement. Tuesday morning, there was a small protest outside the Cab County Commissioner's Building to call for the reopening of entrenchment Creek Park. The park was a common gathering spot for the movement at where many people camped during previous weeks of action.

An executive order from DECAB CEO Michael Thurmond closed the park late last March as the police geared up to fortify Bolauni and speed run all of the tree felling.

Speaker 5

So I sat in the Board of Commissioners meeting and it's different than a city council meeting, where like anybody who signs up to do public comment can do public comment. They only a lot thirty minutes of public comment, so about that amounts to ten speakers, and I think about six of them were actually there for, you know, to talk about opening the park. And then the rally, I think it was something like thirty thirty people. It was a student organized rally, and they did a couple speakers

and then that was that was it. Not much from the cab, Like the cab only came out to make sure that they were blocking a pathway okay, And it was kind of hands off. I did get a parking ticket, that was my fault, you did. Yeah, I let my parking expire for twelve minutes. A legalist mascot at the ACPC. Wow. Uh and yeah, the minute I do something illegal, I get a traving ticket.

Speaker 8

Previously in June that a CAB CEO proposed a one point eight million dollar construction plan necessary to reopen the park, but no clear date on when that would happen. One County commissioner has been trying to fast track reopening the park, but their resolution has repeatedly been deferred by the county Board. The soonest it will be reconsidered is October tenth. Meanwhile, the park will remain indefinitely closed. Throughout the first few days of the Week of action, there was something kind

of looming over everyone's heads. There was a march planned from Gresham Park towards Bolani that was to take place on the evening of Wednesday, June twenty eighth. The police response to this action was prime to be the most intense out of the week. The path to Entrenchment Creek Park is a pretty closed in bike path with a tunnel going under an overpass where police have been staging to prevent people from entering the forest.

Speaker 6

No.

Speaker 8

I definitely felt like on Monday and Tuesday everyone was everyone was still like thinking about what would happen on Wednesday, what would happen on the march from Gresham Park.

Speaker 11

That was that was the big unknown, That was the big danger.

Speaker 5

Like very palpable. Yeah, concern about how that was going to play out. Yeah, that probably, I mean all the way back to Saturday. That was probably like playing through people's minds and causing some of that like uncertainty.

Speaker 8

Police were setting up perimeters around the forest in an increased capacity than the usual detail. Pretty early on in the day, there was a Dacab County SWAT mobile command center posted up in a school parking lot next to the tunnel and bike path leading from Gresham to Wolani. Kind of as expected, this entire section of South Atlanta was crawling with police before people even gathered at Gresham Park.

The day began with an unfortunately rocky start and the first arrest of the week outside Cadence Bank in Midtown. The protest was calling on the bank to cancel their twenty million dollar construction loan given to the Atlanta Police Foundation.

Speaker 5

So there was this action at Cadence Bank that they specifically didn't want media and so none of us were there. Yeah, and that was early in the morning. I don't I think We found out about it after renoon or something, so after I woke up. Yeah, I think it was like they said, thirty people, kind of like we saw the other day Friday, Yeah, on Friday. But as they were walking away, somebody gets well multiple they try to arrest multiple p.

Speaker 11

Please start chasing people.

Speaker 8

Someone gets grabbed and arrested, another person gets detained and then let go.

Speaker 11

Seemed like a pretty chaotic scene.

Speaker 8

That's not a great way to start off the day where you have your most stressful action plan for later. You wake up, you get chased by cops, and you're expecting to go do a march in a few hours. Yeah, in the most heavily police area of Atlanta right now. The march was to take place on the same bike path from Gresham Park to Intrenchment Creek Park that people took during the kickoff rally at the last week of Action,

but much has changed on the ground since then. As people started to gather at Gresham Park on Wednesday evening, the numbers were quite small. As I progressed, around one hundred and fifty people eventually amassed, but it was still a small fraction of the number of people at the previous Gresham Park March and with a much greater police presence.

The exact plan for the night was heavily dependent on a lot of factors that it was impossible to explicitly know beforehand, like how many people would show up and what they would feel comfortable doing based on the police response.

Speaker 11

Right, this is.

Speaker 8

Wednesday, June twenty eighth. Me and Matt from the Community Press Collective are gathered at Gresham Park. Overhead you can hear the Dacab helicopter circle at favorite sound, our favorite sound. Yes, there's about I don't know, maybe seventy five or more, close to one hundred, close to one hundred people gathered here in Gresham Park and people have plans to march towards Wolani or at least to the tunnel. And then

what happens after that's kind of a big mystery. Definitely very different than the last time we were gathered in Gresham Park with a crowd of people.

Speaker 5

We're missing the music, we're missing the duwali like paint clouds, we're missing the kids. We're missing maybe the vibes just in general.

Speaker 8

Another eight hundred people or so, but I mean people are setting out science and some banners. Police have a decent presence around the around like the tunnel, or like the overpass over the tunnel, and around Wilani.

Speaker 5

Right now, all around the Wi Lanni triangle there's there APD and the cab County police just hanging out more than usual. And at the fire station there was more cops than I've seen since March fifth, since the last week of action.

Speaker 8

Yeah, earlier this morning I saw a d KEB County swat nobile command unit at the school next to the tunnel overpass, but I do not know where that is now. It was It was not parked there last time we drove by about half an hour ago. So yeah, just that is. That is the update as of as of six thirty. So I'm guessing this crowd will start moving the next thirty minutes to forty minutes.

Speaker 5

Probably have hour. Yeah all right.

Speaker 8

Right, as the crowd was about to set off, someone made an announcement that due to small numbers and large police presence, there was to be a change of plans. Instead of going all the way to Entrenchment Creek Park or even the tunnel, they were going to march one third of the way and stop on the bike path.

All right, it's around seven to twenty pm, About one hundred and fifty people are leaving Gresham Park and they announce they're going to be going to hold a small vigil near one of one of the felled trees on the bike path. For a little while, the march was getting along fine, there was music and chanting, when suddenly police made an early appearance. Okay, so it's what seven seven fifty seven forty one on Wednesday, June twenty eighth. We are walking on the bike path and staged.

Speaker 5

Twenty five minutes into the walk and here we come on our first police presence of the day along our path. So too, thinking to Cab County. Yeah, two Decab County SuDS part side by side along the path, but they are not out of their vehicles.

Speaker 8

No oh, I think the crowd spears order.

Speaker 11

They might try to give you a sporsal order because there's too many people.

Speaker 5

Yeah.

Speaker 8

I didn't think they would try to fuck with it this soon. I thought they would wait to the tunnel. A small number of police were posted up right before the first bridge on the bike path, roughly about halfway to the tunnel. If they wanted to the crowd could have marched past the police as they were not blocking the path. The two cop cars couldn't even follow behind because there was big metal bulgards preventing vehicles from going

on the Wooden bridge. But the visible police caused the group to pause.

Speaker 5

There was that one speech that we need to touch on from that night, and that was the speaker said, in order to win, we have to let go of the idea of losing while looking good. Yeah, And that I think is going to inform whatever the direct action side of things are for the next this next phase of the movement.

Speaker 8

While paused in front of the police cruisers, the crowd deliberated on what they wanted to do and what they thought they could accomplish. After a few minutes of discussion, they decided that they were not prepared to unnecessarily sacrifice themselves. One of the people from the crowd spoke briefly not only on this decision, but also how it fits into the difficult situation the movement has found itself in. Right now, I'm going to quote a little bit from this impromptu

speech quote. We shouldn't come away from this feeling demoralized. We should feel clarity because we believe we set out to participate in a movement to obstruct the construction of a police militarization site, but that is not being allowed to happen. The people we're fighting against believe we are a domestic insurgency. They are treating us like an insurgency. The state is using militaristic language like denying anarchists operating space.

And so we're going to great lengths to be safe, to play it safe, and to go slow, and to proceed rationally and defend one another. But we're coming under constant attack everything we do. We're under attack unquote. Just earlier that morning, people were attacked by the state and arrested as they stood on the sidewalk outside of a bank. Those who work to bail activists out of jail are attacked. People doing on the ground jail support are physically attacked and face police intimidation.

Speaker 2

Quote.

Speaker 8

We don't want to be engaged in a failing struggle. Our enemy is treating us like terrorists. That's what they're calling us, and that's what they believe we are. It's not just a rhetorical trick. That's how they're treating the movement. And so we have to figure out how we're gonna win, because we intend to win, but you can't just only defend yourself. The safest thing for us to do is

to never go to a protest about this movement. Again, if our top priority is safety, everyone who's not currently facing charges should move away, should not go to events or actions. But if we have a higher priority than safety alone, we're gonna have to figure out what we're going to do to achieve that, which is going to require going on the offense when we're able and how

we're able. This movement has been very creative, and we're going to have to continue to be more and more creative, and we're going to have to continue to deploy all available means in order to have this kind of offensive, victorious, and strong movement that we all deserve when we fight, when we attack the enemy, when we have our offensive actions, we have to follow through with them. We have to go all the way with them. We have to be willing to believe in ourselves to believe that we can win.

And so I believe that we are going to win this movement, and I think you guys believe that we're going to win this movement. But that's going to require us to abandon the idea of looking good while losing. We can't look good losing. So are we going to look good losing or are we going to win?

Speaker 2

Unquote?

Speaker 11

All right, it is eight o'clock.

Speaker 8

The crowd sat in the middle of the trail behind the first bridge, where two decap County vehicles are parked. They deliberated for a little bit, and then a few people spoke, and now the crowd has turned around at a marching back to Greshiam Park, marching back.

Speaker 5

No arrests. We do have two helicopters now hanging out over us. That's my favorite thing.

Speaker 6

In the world.

Speaker 8

And a lot of other decav on the ground and other parts of the bike path in the trails.

Speaker 5

Yeah, they would have walked directly into what looked like a full swat team above the bridge. So they made the right choice, is what it seems like to me.

Speaker 8

Yeah, And they talked about their intentionality of the decision, and it's how it's important to not just keep losing while trying to look cool and throw yourself out a line of police.

Speaker 5

Yeah, and that hopefully, I mean, what does that look like in practice? I guess we'll see you over the next few months.

Speaker 8

Three days, three days to two months, Yeah.

Speaker 5

Three days, It several months. But it does sound like there's some attempt now at directionality. That wasn't I wasn't sing yeah until.

Speaker 8

This is the exact same March people tried to do back in March, and they did it, and they're trying to do it here again in June.

Speaker 11

And it doesn't work.

Speaker 5

It didn't.

Speaker 11

It doesn't work the first time.

Speaker 5

It doesn't work.

Speaker 11

It worked the first time, it does mean the second time. So now it's time to change something.

Speaker 5

Yeah.

Speaker 8

On the walk back to Gresham Park, we got clear photos of the amount of riot police waiting for us at the tunnel, and it was a great many.

Speaker 11

Oh yeah, there is a lot.

Speaker 5

That's a lot of a lot of a lot of riot.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 11

And that was when of the vans posted above the tunnel.

Speaker 5

Yeah. So that trailer, Yeah, that's what they bring all their riots shields in.

Speaker 7

OK.

Speaker 11

Yeah, that that would have sucked.

Speaker 5

That would not have been fun.

Speaker 11

No, that would have gone very poorly.

Speaker 5

Would have been tear gas though, and I do miss being tear gas.

Speaker 11

I can like spray with pepper spray.

Speaker 5

If you want. It's not the same as tears I guess.

Speaker 11

Pretty right now if you want.

Speaker 8

Matt ultimately declined to be pepper sprayed. Tortia Guita's mother, Belquise Tearran, came to Gresham Park to also join the march.

Speaker 5

So what we had was one hundred and fifty people in Belquist turn and I think that that, yeah, plays a role in how this goes on.

Speaker 11

No having belle Keise.

Speaker 8

Very like visibly present, like walking up to everybody there and greeting them. Just having her presence there affects what people want to do, and it reminds you of what's actually like the actual stakes at hand, so you're caring for everyone around you in a much more like conscious capacity. Belcise spoke, a few other people spoke, and then they turned around and headed back to Gresham and that was the decision that was.

Speaker 11

Made, and no one was hurt, no one was arrested.

Speaker 8

People got back to Gresham Park, some people had ice cream.

Speaker 5

Two people in particular had ice cream, and they were very happy about it. It definitely wasn't maybe it was us.

Speaker 11

Other people also had ice cream.

Speaker 5

Other people did have ice cream. I don't think they were quite as excited.

Speaker 8

Throughout the week, you could tell that people were really wanting to be back in the forest and Willani People's Park. People made do gathering at Brownwood Park, but it wasn't the same. There was an undeniable distance between where people were gathered this week of action and the sight of all the previous battles in the Wilani. The fact that so much of the forest had already been destroyed loomed heavily over the week, and that's something that people are

still processing and are still comprehending. Another big aspect of the week, like this is this is the first week of action where people haven't gone in the gone in the Wilani, Like.

Speaker 5

Yeah, there's no action, which feels weird, well, we should say in the triangle because you know, but like the site.

Speaker 8

Like this is the first time that people haven't been like in the forest, and that's a new thing to navigate, that a new feeling to navigate, Like there's there's a different there's a different.

Speaker 5

Sense multiple chances.

Speaker 8

There's multiple chance being like not one lead, don't cut down the trees and like the trees are gone, like it's the site's been cleared, and I think people are still catching up to that and like relight, Like it's still something that people are processing and they're gonna have to process that if they want to like continue, like they have to like look at the situation being like this is we have to accept what has happened. Then we can choose what's to do, because you can't.

Speaker 5

Act as can't deny what the reality is.

Speaker 8

No, and you can't act as if the trees are still there, because that's going to change the type of the types of like actions you do, Like.

Speaker 11

You can't tree set in the trees.

Speaker 8

It's it's changing the actual actions people are going to take to try to stop copsitting. Yeah, I think the Wednesday action almost needed to happen. So many people still dream about what if we could reoccupy Wallawi. People are still caught in that headspace because they got so used to that over the course of almost two years. So it never there was going to be an attempt where a few hundred people try to re enter Wilani People's Park. They're almost needed to be an attempt just to see

what would happen. And we saw what would happen, and now people can use that action as reference when making future plans and decisions about actions, because you can point back to this and demonstrate what the police response will be when people march to Wolani. Massive amounts of SWAT riot police waiting for you, SWAT mobile command centers, heavily armed police estanged on roads, overpasses, entrances, and all around the forest specifically waiting for people to try to cross

over or through the tunnel. So now people know what will happen if they try and do the same thing again. In some ways, it kind of needed to not just be theoretical speculation, but actually happen so that people can now truly allow themselves to evolve, so that you don't have this question in the back of your head, because now that question has been answered, you would be throwing yourself at a wall of swat and riot gear. And now everyone can let themselves evolve and start figuring out

what new things can be fostered and imagined. We'll hear more about those evolutions and conclude my coverage of the week of action.

Speaker 11

In the next episode.

Speaker 8

See you on the other side, Welcome back to it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. This is part two of my mini series about what's been happening this summer in Atlanta to stop cop City. Last episode, we left off with the attempted march from Gresham Park to Entrenchman Creek Park, which some might say was a disappointment, but it also gave everyone more clarity about the current state of these types of direct action marches in Atlanta and

the necessity for evolution. The main event on Thursday, June twenty ninth was a protest outside the Home Depot in the upscale retail district off of Ponce de Leon Avenue. Home Depot is one of the Atlanta Police Foundation's financial backers.

Speaker 5

There had been a rumor that Home Depot was was gonna be close earlier in the day. I got there four thirty. It wasn't closed, so I didn't see any signage. So I went and parked my car and came back and like, I think I got there for fifty and people were starting to line up along the road, like, uh, there's a Starbucks. And they were lining up along Ponce next to the Starbucks, and you know, I'm I'm talking to them watching this. They're chanting, they're they're pulling out banners,

and we get a call that they are arresting Lorraine Fontana. So, Lorraine Fontana is a seventy six year old activist in Atlanta, and she's great like she she pops up everywhere. She's beloved by everyone. And so we get this call that Lorraine Fontana is being arrested, and uh, I bolts as far as my little legs will take me in. Then I have to stop and catch my breath, like right before I get there. But Lorraine and one other person were arrested in the parking lot right outside the home depot.

Speaker 13

It's a store called.

Speaker 14

Me called four Prays here, and they did not want anybody protests in the store. When they start reading out the layer, I asked them to boy handed and said the practices at that time. I'll also usually the look from a trust past warning telling them their how people cannot want their faces or inside the store.

Speaker 8

After protesters left the store, they stood by a corner in the parking lot to holding signs, where they were then approached by APD officers who then arrested two people without warning.

Speaker 5

It does kind of just show APD like basically doing exactly what they would with anyone, except in this case it's the seventy six year old woman who's like five or four eleven or something like that.

Speaker 8

Yeah, yeah, no, I mean it was a lot of people were like surprised that this happened, Like how could.

Speaker 5

The police do this?

Speaker 8

I think others were like not as surprised, be like, no, it's the APD. They like it was a good demonstration for people being like showing that they do not care.

Speaker 11

They don't really care if you're a.

Speaker 8

Seventy seven year old woman or if you're a nineteen year old eco terrorist, they're gonna treat you roughly the same.

Speaker 5

Yeah.

Speaker 8

After Lorraine's arrest, more and more people began showing up across the street from home Depot calling for their divestment from the Atlanta Police Foundation.

Speaker 5

It got up to like thirty maybe forty people mostly just like chanting on the sidewalks sidewalk, but then they started to like walk back and forth when the crosswalk was like there, yeah, and they were pushing the limit, like seeing what they could get. But there was also my favorite part was the APD officer who was sitting in his I'm sorry. My favorite part was, fuck, I gotta do this about breaking down in the middle.

Speaker 11

I did hear a little bit about this, all right?

Speaker 5

Take three, Take three? Uh, there was the APD officer that was sitting in his Ford Explorer on Ponts and at one point he calls out on his you know, loud speaker, I'm not an idiot. I swear I'm not an idiot. While he's backing up on Ponts with his lights on, just like what are you doing?

Speaker 11

People are asking a lot of questions.

Speaker 2

They are already answered, I'm on an idiots shirt.

Speaker 5

Oh it was great. So I caught like the briefest snippet of that audio, thankfully. That's funny.

Speaker 8

On Thursday night, after the Home Depot rally, there was a jail vigil around ten pm for Lorraine at the Rice Street Fulton County Jail.

Speaker 5

So there are two jails. There's Adventas City Detention Center and then there's Fulton County Jail, which we just Rice Street because it's off off Rice Street. Okay, so when you get charged with criminal trespassed, it's like a misdemeanor charge, and typically you would go to Atlantic City Detention Center, which still a jail is still terrible, but relatively like better. Okay, Fulton County Jail is you know atrocious it is, you

know Leshawan Thompson. Of course that the guy who was eaten alive in his in his cell by bugs because of neglect. That is Rice Street Jail. That's the Fulton County Jail. That's the Fulton County Jail. So we get worried that Lorraine is at Fulton County Jail and not ACDC, which is pretty striking. So everybody goes down to do a jail vigil and noise demo for context.

Speaker 8

Last September, Lashawan Thompson, a thirty five year old man, was found dead after spending three months in an infested Fulton County Jail psychiatric cell. His body was covered in a thousand bug bites and were found in his mouth, ears, nose, and all across his body. Such inhumane incidents are not in irregularity in Fulton County Jail. Just earlier this month, a thirty five year old named Christopher Smith died in

Fulton County Jail. He had been held in custody since October sixth, twenty nineteen, without bond on several unspecified felony and misdemeanor charges. According to the County Sheriff's Office, last month, a nineteen year old girl died in Fulton County custody after being arrested on a minor misdemeanor charge. This past year alone, six people have died in the Fulton County jail system. People in Atlanta have been doing jail vigils and noise demos for years and it's never really been

a problem. Cops might tell people to move off to the side if the crowd gets to a certain size,

but they have typically gone on without issue. But this time Fulton County deputies came out and declared that people are not allowed to protest outside the jail and ordered everyone to completely leave the parking and go all the way to the other side of this big hill off of Rice Street to jail property in order to continue protesting, which no one was really keen on doing, so this kind of game of chicken began.

Speaker 5

They eventually they pull on a bunch more sheriff's deputies and threatened arrest. So people start making their way up the hill linking arms, and they get to the top of the hill and they're met with another group of protesters who had tried to come down, but they were stopped by police at the top of the hill. So now the crowd size like essentially doubled. Yeah, and the energy just goes through the roof. You know, both sides

are just going back and forth. This This deputy is like completely overmatched, doesn't really They didn't seem like Fulton County had a plan. You know, usually APD or the cat they have some sort of protest planned. Fulton was flying by the seat of their pants. And so all of our cars were down at the bottom with the hill.

They were back in the Rice Street parking lot. And this this becomes like an issue because some of the protesters cars are there, all of the media cars are there, like down at the bottom of this hill, and they're not letting anyone go down there. And this woman shows up to like put I think money on her son's commissary car and they don't let her. Now she's like

they're just shutting down jail rage aloud, Yeah exactly. So they finally first they're like we're gonna let you go down one by one, and everyone's like hell no, like we are not trusting you.

Speaker 2

Yeah, sure, sure, sure, buddy, let's go.

Speaker 8

Let's isolate, isolated move through this police fortress in an isolated.

Speaker 5

Uh So then they're like, okay, you can go as a group. Yeah, okay, as long as you have your vehicles down there, you can go as a group. So they slowly start to make their way down.

Speaker 10

They do not see in the next five minutes we want to.

Speaker 5

Start up to do They get all the way to the bottom hill. They're in the parking lot and just like on the edge of where the cars are, and they kind of stop moving and the Shaff's deputy is like, yeah, I gotta keep moving, and so they start moving again and then stop again, and then the shriffs deputy says, all right, get them, and so then the deputy start moving in to make a rest and quickly, you know this, this march kind of becomes this backward moving thing. Yeah

I can't see that. I'm moving my hands to Showcarrison, but it becomes this backward moving thing up up the hill. That's the bottom line.

Speaker 2

You in the street and we will be taking in fush, Get out the street, Get.

Speaker 9

Out the street.

Speaker 8

The crowd was able to leave before anyone was detained, but it was a quite tense situation. The sort of dynamic we saw at the jail vigil and home Depot protest led directly into the next event on Friday morning, a previously announced second pro test outside of Cadence Bank in Midtown calling on Cadence Bank to cancel the Atlanta Police Foundation's twenty million dollar construction loan. All right, people had a protest on Friday morning at Cadence Bank in Midtown Atlanta.

Speaker 11

There's maybe like.

Speaker 8

Around a dozen people here, uh, canting outside of the building. Also about a dozen APD officers walking walking down from up the street, preparing to meet the crowd. They're moving in closer that they're walking in again. People still, I don't think anyone's even touched touched the class door. Most of the people are just standing here on the sidewalk.

Speaker 5

You know that game you play with your cats where they come at you, but they stop when you're watching them. Yeah, that's the game we're playing.

Speaker 11

Yeah, yeah, yea yeah yeah, we turn away. The cops advanced.

Speaker 8

We like this is also like half of like the lo Ney tunes gags is they're doing a Michelin frog all right, and they're they're now on the King's Bank property. They're starting to advance. Police were yelling at people that they couldn't touch any of the steps leading up to the bank entrance, and that you weren't allowed to lean against any hand rails because the metal poll was bank property.

So once again we got this little game of back and forth, except one side has guns and the power to arrest you.

Speaker 15

Propera this coup said in the crowds trying to incite a riot.

Speaker 5

It feels very much like what you saw I guess in Portland. Obviously I wasn't there. There's an object that becomes this sacred goal.

Speaker 11

And then you're you're battling over the thing because the thing is now been.

Speaker 5

Given something like me actual physical like presence, and that is the thing that you are now fighting for.

Speaker 16

It.

Speaker 2

It becomes a symbolic in front of a building.

Speaker 5

It don't matter, but the police gave it significent.

Speaker 8

Because the police turn it into this like symbolic thing, it now means more than it just just being stepped.

Speaker 5

So there was this camera guy who like kept kind of stepping up and like pushing the envelope.

Speaker 8

And eventually more activists put one foot on the steps, being like okay, if you're gonna come after us for putting a foot on the bank steps, fine, come at us, like call call the bluff.

Speaker 11

Yeah.

Speaker 8

So there was like people yelling at the CoP's face for like forty five minutes, maybe maybe longer.

Speaker 11

Time always stretches during these sorts of things.

Speaker 5

It's hard to it's hard to keep it.

Speaker 8

It's hard to keep a sense of like temporal stability, even just during during weeks of action in general, it's always hard to keep a sense of temporal stability. That's the sense of time warps around. Days blend into each other. A day feels like a week, a week feels like a day. It's it's very it gets very fuzzy, it gets.

Speaker 5

Incredibly trippy, and you're like yeah, and the exhaustion right, like just no, there's a lot of things.

Speaker 11

That feed into it.

Speaker 8

Despite about a dozen people putting their foot on the sacred steps, the police did not decide to arrest anyone at this protest, and after about an hour of disruption, the crowd departed. The week of action ended much like the last one, with the final rally being the youth march back at Brownwood Park. Lorraine just got out on bail and spoke about the jail conditions to the crowd of one hundred or so people gathered in the park on the morning of July first.

Speaker 17

And I don't want people to forget that our movement is connected with lots of other stone, one of which is prison abolition.

Speaker 7

Yeah, the idea that are.

Speaker 17

So quote criminal justice system is such that people get just shoved behind bars. We don't want to see them.

Speaker 18

We don't care what happens to them.

Speaker 2

And even if they're not.

Speaker 17

Hadn't gone to trial yet, and they're in a jail awaiting hearing or awaiting a trial, they're treated like.

Speaker 7

They're already on the people with at they're a criminal. See, we don't have to care as much about them.

Speaker 8

They're kind of the other the bad people in Lorraine said that she was in a crowded holding cell with twenty two other women and just a few metal benches, nothing else. This is where nearly two dozen people had to sleep, had to eat, use the bathroom, all in one place for days on end. Women were trying to sit or sleep on either of the hard benches or the floor. Some were attempting to use menstrul pads in

place of a mattress. If they were lucky enough to be asleep, they were woken up at two am for breakfast and then again at four am for head counting.

Speaker 17

They were so full they didn't have room for the people that were arrested, so they were in this holding sale.

Speaker 11

Some of them been there three days.

Speaker 17

It was eighteen feet by six feet across. The last six feet were behind a divider.

Speaker 9

The had of toylets toys, so with.

Speaker 17

Even less room, the prison system is every day doing these kind of being union treatments to people that get arrested or not yet guilty of anything.

Speaker 8

Student organizers and parents also briefly spoke on why people are fighting against copp City.

Speaker 2

I don't want to live in a city.

Speaker 16

I don't want to live in a country in a world that prioritizes the protection of private property through murder and state violence over the fundamental building blocks of life. Okay, I think we need to be focusing on giving people places to live, giving people food to eat, water to drink, not on giving the police playgrounds where they can blow.

Speaker 2

Up bombs and shoot their guns.

Speaker 16

And that's why all of us together here need to come together, be as one here in beautiful community, with children, with elders, everything in between, doing this amazing community.

Speaker 5

Beldor I love being out here with y'all.

Speaker 2

It's so much fun to just like be working the popcorn machines and all that.

Speaker 16

And that's why we're all here together, because we know that community is the key for us to stop cop city.

Speaker 2

Stop cop city.

Speaker 18

And so as we fight to stop cop City, we are fighting for investment in the things that make families thrive in this city.

Speaker 7

We tell them's right, chickens.

Speaker 18

We tell the little police foundations, and we demand that money be reinvested.

Speaker 2

And they're housing for the people, shall care for.

Speaker 18

The people, education for the people, health care for the people. But those are the things that make our communities truly safe. And if they won't give it to us, we're gonna build those networks of care in our communities ourselves. That is what makes days like today so beautiful, the fact.

Speaker 2

That the people have the capacity to feel and feed the people.

Speaker 18

The people have the capacity to make sure that people say, hy drating, people have the capacity to give each other medical care. And as we build out those networks of care, we make the government irrelevance.

Speaker 2

You kind of tellup for the new all day long.

Speaker 18

But if we continue to build people's power, well they have to say don't even matter, So are you ready to build.

Speaker 7

That kind of world?

Speaker 8

As people got ready to depart, the energy was noticeably higher than most other events that week. All right, it is Saturday morning on July first. This is the last day of the sixth week of action of the Youth Rally. Just left Brownwood Park and is now marching through East

Atlanta Village. Shortly before the Youth Rally, news started to circulate that early early that morning, just after midnight, several Atlanta police motorcycles and cop cars suffered mysterious damages, which possibly could have contributed to the more bolsterous energy among some of the radical attendees. People are driving by and honking in support. As about seventy five people, maybe one hundred are marked as about seventy five or one hundred people are marching next to Metropolitan Avenue.

Speaker 5

Take a fire truck would pull their air horn.

Speaker 2

The fire trucks were kind of busy last night.

Speaker 19

Actually, I'm not sure the fire trucks were busy doing what There's well, it seems like a lot of police motorcycles were found to be set on fire at the sight of the old Police Trading Academy.

Speaker 5

Sounded like some police suck cruisers were wrecked somewhere else in the city too.

Speaker 11

On Memorial Drive Southeast, it sounded like three cop cars were also smashed up.

Speaker 5

Is you think there's something going around?

Speaker 2

Is it contagious?

Speaker 11

So, Yeah, the fire crews were a little bit busy last night.

Speaker 5

Spontaneous vehicle vandalism.

Speaker 8

Yeah, that's certainly one way to end this week of action. This definitely feels like the most positive part of the Week of action so far. Yeah, people have been marching for about twenty minutes now. The march is now turned down Glenwood and is heading back towards Brownwood Park. No police presence at all so far. There was just complete I've not seen a single cop car in this in

this section of town. There's also three less cop cars in Atlanta than there usually is, so that that might have something to do with it.

Speaker 5

It was from this zone too, that the second one where the cop cars are it was like a mile and a half away. Yeah, it's very very close, but yeah, very different than what we saw on last Saturday. Yes, where I like, even on my way in, I saw apd here every you know, twenty feet Yeah, and do not see a single no, a beauty vehicle is notable.

Speaker 8

The youth rally that closed the last week of action in March kind of felt like the end of an era. This one on July first felt very different, much more like a beginning of a new era. After a very scattered week, the movement finally started to feel like it had multiple directions to grow. This week definitely started on I would say, a muted note, and it's ended with a bit more directionality for the future and a bit more positivity.

Speaker 4

I think.

Speaker 8

I think people were able to think of ways that the movement can evolve and grow from here and recognize the necessity for that and now change and yet recognized the necessity for change, and people are ready to continue and evolve as the situation on the ground is also changing.

Speaker 5

And I mean adaptability was a part of the movement from the get go. Yes, just I think we got the movement got very tied to certain modes of operation that are not available anymore.

Speaker 7

Yep.

Speaker 8

You know, for the past like a few months, people have been it felt like people have been playing on the police's like board like they've been they've been following that and both both of the action last night and the sort of talks that are happening throughout the city.

Speaker 11

I think that is probably going to change.

Speaker 5

All right.

Speaker 8

We are about a block away from Brownwood Park on Portland Avenue and Gresham Avenue.

Speaker 5

Where there is pizza and water waiting.

Speaker 8

That is, that is I'm excited for water. I don't think I can have hot pizza right now. I think I would just faint. But cold water is certainly, certainly enticeing. Certain Yeah, and there's music back here in Brownwood. Tables set up giving out literature, giving out food, water, lots of bubbles. Earlier, earlier, at the earlier, at the rally before the march, there was a water balloon fight which was very interest.

Speaker 5

Yeah, I left it. I don't know why you've stayed around.

Speaker 2

The water moved.

Speaker 5

I took my laptop and left.

Speaker 11

There was there was there was a few very close moments there.

Speaker 2

But yeah, no, there's food.

Speaker 8

There's lots of signs, banners, what a lot of Little

Caesar's pizza. There was much more energy here compared to the kickoff rally, which happened in the very same park exactly a week beforehand, which felt sort of reversed from the previous week of action this past March, which is interesting because like last week of action, you know, the kickoff rally was like the biggest thing, was the biggest energy point, and the youth rally was kind of the more like muted clothes And this has kind of been inversed.

Speaker 5

Which honestly for when you're looking at like what has happened over the last few months, maybe reading leading beating out with a high note is yeah, is the idea.

Speaker 8

I like, we're also ending with the bouncy castle, which is very very important.

Speaker 5

Yeah, for the full flip, we have to end with the bouncy castle.

Speaker 8

Yes, We've although we should move the bouncy castle to eight to ninety Memorial Drive south east.

Speaker 2

Oh my god. Stop.

Speaker 8

After the youth rally, Matt and I got some coffee in East Atlanta Village and talked about the broad strokes of the week and the general state of the movement.

But like I said, I think this week started with a lot of questions being had, and it's ended with some of those questions being being answered and people figuring out that to answer some of some of those other questions, the answer will will will take the form of actions that happened in these next few months, and I feel like there's it's it's it's ended with a bit more directionality than what it began, which is interesting for a week of action. Yeah, it was needed, though it was

absolutely needed. Like at like the first rally just felt so weird that for the first kickoff rally that the first day, that the first few days felt just very very like very scattered. It was unclear how what was happening was related to stop in Cop City. And in some ways, this week of Action feels like the reverse of the last week of Action, where like the last week of Action, it started with a point of directionality, like we are going to retake Kolani and they did.

Speaker 11

And then they're like, we are.

Speaker 8

Going to do an action to physically stop the construction of Cop City, and they did, Like they was doing all these things. And I think that week ended with more questions and what it started with because the police did the rate of the forest, there was a lot of there was more uncertainty by the end of the week because there was so much over policing.

Speaker 5

There was a lot of changes throughout throughout that week.

Speaker 8

And I think this week started in like an inverse is people started this week with a directionless of sense, and they had a lot of questions going into this week, and I feel like some people have started to kind of figure out how the movement will evolve.

Speaker 11

In these next few months, and it feels like people have a.

Speaker 8

Better idea of where, of like how they're going to move forward in these next three months six months, and like the month and a half when construction is slated to begin in August.

Speaker 5

Wait to begin. And you know, this referendum is looking like it's doing pretty well, so hopefully that that does delay. But yeah, of course we also ended with bouncy castle. We can't do it so acknowledging the importance of bouncy castles to this movement, or at least to Garrison, and I yes.

Speaker 8

I think the other thing that makes it interesting in terms of this week being an inverse of the last week is that, you know, on the last week, day two, there was this very fiery action with vehicles being smashed. And then on the second to last day, which is like late last night, either like late Friday night or early Saturday morning, at like one am, two am, there was three Atlanta police cars smashed by Reynoldstown.

Speaker 4

I believe.

Speaker 5

Yeah, just right, like a mile and a half away from from Brownwood Park, yep.

Speaker 8

And close to the airport at the old Police Trade Academy, there was a it looks like a good fleet of Atlanta police motorcycles.

Speaker 5

Yeah, that's where the motorcycle Like, that's where the motors the quarters.

Speaker 8

Ye is one outside and those motorcycles are going to be no longer functioning. Yes, they are all charged to a crisp with like incendiary devices found there.

Speaker 5

Yeah.

Speaker 8

One of the most noticeable differences about this week of action compared to the previous one was the turnout out of state support did not show up in similar numbers as to the last week of action in March. There's a lot of potential reasons for this. This week may have simply happened too soon, It coincided with other events across the country. Its messaging may not have reflected an

adequate level of planning. There was probably some demoralization from the ninety acres of trees cut down and with Entrenchment Creek Park closed and under police occupation. Launching options in Atlanta was more of a mystery for those coming from outside the city. More time away from the death of Tortigita is probably also a factor. People in Atlanta may have to reconcile that the movement may not have as much widespread national support and all the ground numbers as it did last March.

Speaker 5

This is the smallest week of action we've had in over a year in recent memory.

Speaker 11

This is the smallest one I've reported on.

Speaker 5

Right, Yeah, you know, I think it might have even been comparable to the first week of Action, like it was around there, but it also felt more local.

Speaker 11

It did feel way more local.

Speaker 5

Once you go from like something so big as the last week of action to something more constrained, that is that sets a like a vibe shift that I think you've got to kind of come to terms with. And it's one of those moments where you're like, Okay, we are in a different paradigm.

Speaker 8

Yeah, fewer numbers is not necessarily a bad thing. A group of five to ten people can sometimes be much more effective at doing certain things than a crowd of two hundred or even a thousand. You just have to specifically prepare for the numbers that you know that you'll have for such a long time. I felt like this was this movement was extremely effective in delay and construction like that was like extremely effective. Deadline year and a half,

deadlines kept getting pushed back every single thing. Like the occupation was very good at doing what it attempted to do, and at a certain point that became no longer viable and things are now changing gears. Yeah, and you have to allow yourself that evolution, Like it has to the same way people started occupying the forest in October after the city council stuff in September twenty twenty one.

Speaker 11

Like as the things changed, you have to change your tactics with it.

Speaker 5

And as I mean, as revolutionary strategy goes, that's just that should be a baseline, yea. And adapting to what the situation is and not what the situation what you want it to be.

Speaker 8

Yeah, And I think more people are talking about that this week and realizing that, like maybe even another week of Action does not make sense for this new paradigm that we're existing in Atlanta. I've talked about the possibility of changing the week of Action structure before in previous episodes, and I really only brought that up because that's what people were conveying to me at the time. And this has continued to be a topic of debate both during and since June, what do you.

Speaker 5

Do with the Week of Action format? And I know that we kind of talked about this during the last YEP recap episode where you brought up that that might have been the last Week of Action, but it wasn't.

Speaker 8

It wasn't because as I was making as episodes this Week of Action what was announced, I've heard more people say that they don't think the Week of Action format is applicable.

Speaker 11

Aim.

Speaker 8

I've heard more people say that than I did last week. What if Atlanta has kind of outgrown this format? This format's proved to be very useful in these past few years. It's been very positive parts, it's been very negative parts. And what if there's time for what if it's time for something like completely new, something that the police don't.

Speaker 5

Know how to respond to, because something that matches the new paradigm.

Speaker 8

Yeah, because that's That's the other thing is like people have been doing this for like two years now, Like not only have people gotten used to a pattern, but like police have gotten used to a pattern. Like police have gotten very good at repressing the Week of Action like they have they have had two years to practice, they have they know how to do this now? So why why keep playing on their battlefield? Like why why keep doing what APD.

Speaker 5

Is expecting you to do.

Speaker 8

That's part of what's you know, interesting about this resurgence of these nocturnal hit and run sabotages that are unannounced. That we saw the ones earlier in this week with the with the Brent scarboroughs machines, when we saw the APD vehicles get hit last night, So perhaps there there will be more of that. Perhaps they'll be just new things that we can't even predict, like there's so many

other avenues that things could that things could go. Even during the use March, Matt and I were wondering if this new spike in sabotage actions would break the spell and we'd see a return this type of action happening more frequently.

Speaker 19

You know.

Speaker 5

It's the sort of direct action that has really been missing over the last several months.

Speaker 11

Yeah, and no, we've been talking about a lot this past week.

Speaker 8

We're talking about how there's been a lack of these sorts of like nocturnal hit and run direct actions, and late last night it seems like there was a resurgence.

Speaker 5

So we'll see how that continues, you know, after the Week of Action, if it continues or if it was a Week of Action inspired element. But I have a feeling we'll see some of those continue to crop up.

Speaker 11

Absolutely and this did indeed turn out to be the case. All right.

Speaker 8

I will do my best to go over a short list of the claimed attacks against contractors building cop City and corporations that fund the Atlanta Police Foundation from after this week of action. On a July first, over half a dozen Bank of America buildings in the Bay Area were vandalized and a dozen or so ATMs were smashed.

In late June to early July, a group of friends visited the home of copp City architect Anthony Kenny in Norcross, Georgia, while another group paid a visit to ambush Basil Walla, a member of the boarder trustees for the Atlanta Police Foundation. People painted messages around their homes and tires were slashed.

On the night of July second, Keith Johnson, the Eastern regional president for Brassfield and Gory, the contracting firm who broadly oversaw the destruction of the forest and who has decided to physically build cop City, also received a mysterious visit. Late in the night, an unknown number of people evaded security guards and spread blood red paint around his pool and left a message reading cop City will never be built.

Drop the contract and you can't hide. According to an online communicate, rotten fish and dirty motor oil were left hidden somewhere on the property. Part of the communicat addressed to Keith reads, quote, we know things haven't been feeling great in the office. You're losing money. Subcontractors are upset. There are fractures everywhere in the cop City project, and all of that weight and procarity is on your fragile shoulders. Each time you think of us or see the reminders

we left you, remember this is your own doing. You can make all of this stop by dropping the Copcity contract unquote. On July fourth, in lieu of fireworks, people claimed to have set two Brent Scarborough machines on fire in broad daylight due to the lack of security during daytime. Scarborough is the subcontractor who physically leveled the ninety sum acres of forest in the Wallani The same day, in Michigan, Chase Bank ATMs were sabotaged with glue and the bank

was vandalized with messages of resistance. Chase Bank's head of Regional Investment Banking serves on the board of the Atlanta Police found and on July eighth, a Bank of America in Berkeley was vandalized with stopcop city slogans and three

ATMs were smashed. During the start of this little wave of actions, the Mayor's office and APD were none too happy, so on July fifth, Mayor Andre Dickens and Atlanta Police Chief Darren Shecherbaum put on a press conference with the ATS, Georgia Bureau of Investigation and FBI to discuss the recent surge of direct actions.

Speaker 10

Our public safety facilities and property were the target of an extremely violent and dangerous attack on Saturday, July first, and there were several other destructive acts of extreme vandalism on public and private property property that occurred that we have reason to believe are related to the construction of the Atlanta Public Safety Training Center in Decab County. The current Atlanta Police Training Center at W one eighty south Side Industrial Parkway was set ablaze in the early morning

hours of Saturday, July first. The targeted attack utilized extremely dangerous homemade incendiary devices to set a fire to the building and completely destroyed eight police motorcycle motorcycles. As shocking as this is, this was not an isolated incident of violence. This group actually took credit for these incidents and they stated it as I quote, we are vengeful wing nuts with nothing left to lose.

Speaker 20

Prior to that, about one hour prior to the event that one of the South Side industrial we had another precinct that was targeted in the city. This is our Path Force precinct Memorial Drive and the eight hundred block of Memorial. These officers control the belt line which many of you all visit frequently. At that location, we had multiple windows broken on police vehicles. We believe the intent

was to set those vehicles on fires. Well, there's a burgraff and fire off of the red fuse on the ground that has been used by this group in the past to set police vehicles on fire that was dropped when a citizen observed the criminal actions progress and actually interrupted the crimes that were occurring there. So we believe that the fire attack that was planned on Memorial Drive was thwarted by an observant citizen. A short time later, about an hour, we had the fire at our facility

on South Side Industrial. Our training center has housed there most recently, and then our special operations precinct is there. The intent was for all forty to be destroyed, and had all those forty vehicles caught on fire, that police facility would have been gravely damaged, if not destroyed in the fire. And we are thankful for a police officer that saw this unfolding and likely interrupted that plan for being able.

Speaker 7

To play out in its fullness.

Speaker 20

There's an indication that this was likely committed by the exact same individuals.

Speaker 2

We will let and see where the fact takets.

Speaker 8

According to Chief Sheerbaum and Mayor Dickens, the actions against Atlanta Police on July first, over the course of just a few hours, equalled over three hundred thousand dollars in Damages's.

Speaker 20

Way around thirty five thousand. And they want you outfit us a little bit more. So do that times eight? That's going to put you in the ballpark.

Speaker 10

Yeah, and that's not even including the rest of the smoke and damage and other things and the broken windows on the police car, etc.

Speaker 20

So the group that struck this weekend is a dedicated group of professional anarchists, and I know that may seem a contradiction in terms. So this is a group of individuals that don't pray, play by any rules, and we'll go to any links they need to to carry out and this is their words. We will wage a campaign of violence and destruction, and so what we saw this weekend was part of that campaign.

Speaker 8

It's always funny when police make anarchists sound very cool and scary. But Chief Shecherbam also pretty clearly explained the reasoned methodology behind the pressure campaigns targeting contractors and APF financial sponsors.

Speaker 20

We know from the postings of this group their intent to stop the Public Safety Training Center has left the democratic process of the city Council and is now moving to intimidate and force out contractors that are committed to building the public Safety Training Center. This weekend, during the week of action, three different locations private residences were targeted.

Tires were flattened on a contractors home, a home of an executive for Brassalgory was significantly vanalyzed in another jurisdiction, and then we had another location where graffiti was used to intimidate. And then yesterday morning, slightly after seven o'clock

in the morning. A location at four eighteen McDonough Boulevard belonging into Brent Scarborough's company, which is a key provider of work and this training centers was also targeted and attacked and equipment was set on fire at that location. These acts are of a small, determined group. These are small individuals from across the country that are using violence and fear and intimidation to stop a public safety training center.

And this group cannot hide behind the dark of night or the home address and feel that they are not going to be held accountable. I have standing at this podium with me today representings from the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the ATF, and we are also partner with the Georgia

Bureau of Investigation. These agencies are working together to determine where federal laws violated this weekend and ensure that the full expertise of American law enforcement is present right here in Atlanta to stop this group, stop this group across the region, stop their ability to impact the public safety network of Atlanta, and hold them accountable.

Speaker 8

Despite continued threats from law enforcement, the only arrests that have happened so far in relation to this movement are from daytime protests, forest raids, and bail fund organizers. We've yet to see anyone arrested in Atlanta for doing like a specific one of these nocturnal night sabotage actions that

has not happened. Yeah, I mean, the scariest indictments everyone's expecting are going to come in these next few years, after you give the FBI two three, four years to investigate, after you interview more people who've been arrested, see if anyone stitches, see if anyone turns state's witness. But so far, it's been safer to do nocturnal sabotage actions than it

has been to attend a public protest. And that is an interesting paradigm as well, is that no one's actually got arrested for lighting like cop cars and fire in the middle of the night. No one's been arrested for sabotaging equipment in the middle of the night. All of the arrests that are you know, are being tied to like violent crime, are from like daytime protests, which is

an interesting factor about this movement. Direct action in the most surveiled city in America can be tricky and even just managing cell phones and Internet search data is a huge factor, but as much real security there is out in the world, the amount of security theater is arguably a stronger aspect in getting people to not go out and do direct action. The implicit threat of the opticon is often enough to stifle people's potential action, but these

things are beatable. Guides for how to do it exist either at your local anarchist book fair or online as long as the computer is running tour browser and a reputable VPN.

Speaker 11

The Internet.

Speaker 8

The internet's a fun place. That's there is a lot of no blogs and sites and the zines that tell you how to do that. I don't know, I mean they people always make mistakes, people get caught, sometimes make mistakes.

Speaker 5

It's risky, and there are cameras everywhere in the city. You have to Yeah, some of them, don't worry. But it's like, do you really want to play Russian Roulette?

Speaker 8

No, That's a part of that's a part of when people like plan these nocturnal actions is like just because it's nighttime doesn't mean you're not sick getting watched or you're not Like it's there's a lot of things that

go into that. There's a lot of ways to get got whether you're like buying supplies and you keep a receipt and people please find a receipt, They track back, they find security acount of you'll be purchasing things and then they're like, oh, this bottle is bought at this place because you have this receipt in your house and blah blah, bah blah blah. Like there's there's lots of

ways that that stuff happens. So like I'm not going to give a guide on how to do it right now, but like this anarchists have been.

Speaker 11

Doing this for a long time.

Speaker 8

After you do that crime, you've never done that crime, Like it's it's not something that you do as a person, Like you cease to become a person, you become like.

Speaker 5

You are that action. It issued the action, and then and then you never talked about it ever again it's gone or else you end up going to prison yep, and risking like not just your safety, the safety everyone's safety just by remembering that you did it.

Speaker 8

No, you know, like these become standards and anarchist communities, like you never brag about something, you never allude to anything, like it's it's it's not it's it's not a game, like you're it's not a game, you're it is your your life and other people's lives on the line. When when when you're doing stuff like this and it's yeah, you never do it to like be cool. You never

do it to brag about it like that. That's just not how this works, which is why there's like kind of a much more like kind of insular culture around some anarchists, especially anarchists to identify as like illegalists or like the types of like like green nihilists or green anarchists.

That kind of pioneered the militancy of this movement, both slightly even slightly before the first city council vote and then definitely after the first city council vote where we saw a massive explosion no pun intended in the number of type of sabotages happening in the Wlani Forest. Yeah, which I think that drew a lot of anarchists do come to Atlanta because it was like, oh, they're doing a.

Speaker 5

Thing that's been the thing since the end of the Green Scare.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 8

No, this is like the thing that I believe in that this is like this is my politics. Now there's a spot where I can do my politics and still no one's been caught for that. And I think that that was a big part of why Atlanta got so big last year, is that people have the ability to like live free in the forest and then do crazy

shit at night. Like you can you live in this like autonomous zone during the day, you're able, whether you're you have housing instability, whether you just want like an escape from like horrible police state living like where in whatever, wherever the city you're in, you can go live in the Wilane Forest. You can live in a tent, you can have friends, you can defend this force during the day, and then you can do crazy, crazy shit at night.

And that drew a lot of people to Atlanta, and now with the forest not being there, that that also changes that that changes the type of people who are come who are who want to come to the city because that that was a big draw for people and now that that's no longer an option, you can't really

sleep in the Wilani Forest as easily anymore. Yeah, that changes the types of people who want to come to Atlanta and who are gonna like do crazy shit because that's just how and further own safety they're not here.

Speaker 11

Yeah, No, absolutely.

Speaker 8

As the referendum is hoping to stop cop City by having Atlantas voute on whether to cancel the land lease. Others in the Diverse movement have continued their efforts to pressure contractors and funders to drop out of the cop City project. This tactic has already demonstrated its ability to succeed, with Reeve's Young Construction dropping out of the project in April of twenty twenty two, and some material suppliers have

since cut ties with cop City. This is something that APD Chief Darren Sheerbaum certainly seems worried about.

Speaker 20

This effort of fear was not going to succeed, and the coalition of law enforcement from the GBI to the FBI, to the ATF, Atlanta Police Department, and a slew of regional agencies is going to stop that campaign so it doesn't happen and individuals.

Speaker 2

Do not leave the project.

Speaker 8

On July second, protesters in Minnesota visited the homes of Atlas Technical Consultants employees during daylight. People marched around the neighborhoods with instruments and banners, knocked on doors, talked with neighbors, and lets a letter of demands to drop the contract

and cut ties with the Atlanta Police Foundation. The project manager for Atlas Technical Consultants engaged with protesters in the street and told them that Atlas had indeed already dropped out of the project due to mounting pressure.

Speaker 13

Then we want Atlas is no longer involved.

Speaker 5

Why did they decide to get out of it?

Speaker 7

We stopped doing that.

Speaker 21

Why because you guys are fucking nightmares and you broke all our fucking windows. So I don't care what you want to say to my house and knock on my door and do this ship. My company is not involved in this, So get the fuck away from me, Okay.

Speaker 13

I'm glad.

Speaker 8

Get A few days later, Atlas and Long Engineering released an official statement saying that they would no longer be working on the cop City project. Anarchists and those on the left in general seem to have a hard time calling wins, but I'm not sure if it gets any more definitive than that audio clip in showing that this type of direct action can absolutely work in getting businesses

to leave the project. In the next episode, we'll talk more about the referendum, the city's attempts to divide the movement and the growing pr battle over the fate of Cop City. See you on the other side, Welcome back to it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis, and this is the last episode in my trilogy covering what's been happening this summer in Atlanta to stop Cop City. Last episode we covered the end of the Week of Action, the resurgence of nighttime sabotage, and at Las long Engineering

dropping out of the Cop City project. A relatively new, big aspect of the movement that I've really only mentioned peripherally is the Cop City vote referendum. The goal of the referendum is to let the people of Atlanta vote on whether to repeal an ordinance authorizing the land lease of three hundred and eighty one acres of forest into Cab County that was given to the Atlanta Police Foundation in twenty twenty one to use the land for the

construction of Cop City. In order to get the referendum on an upcoming ballot, the petition had to gather sixty thousand signatures in sixty days. Every signature must be from an Atlanta resident who was registered to vote in twenty twenty one, and initially those who gathered signatures had to also be Atlanta residents. Sixty thousand signatures in sixty days was a lofty goal, but volunteers around the city were being increasingly mobilized during and after the week of action.

For the first few weeks of the referendum, the city stayed mostly quiet, but then on the July fifth APD press conference, Mayor Andre Dickens addressed the referendum.

Speaker 9

Man, are some of these protesters and posts of the training center have bigger collecting signatures in the hope of having a referendum putting the November boundary. What's your reaction to that?

Speaker 7

What's your comment on that?

Speaker 9

Will you allow them to do what they're doing right now and constantly have the referendum?

Speaker 10

Absolutely, the referendum process is one that's legally documented. It's in the city code, and anybody can attempt to get the petition going and get the necessary signatures. We asked that they do so with honesty and truth, collect the signatures from real people, with sharing the truth about what they are looking to do. And so I don't personally believe they're going to be successful. I believe that based

on what we know about the citizens of Atlanta. They are a supportive of the Atlanta Public Safety Training Center. We know that this is going to be unsuccessful if it's done honestly, and so we're making sure that we continue to monitor the process.

Speaker 8

This statement by the Democrat mayor of Atlanta, I don't think has been highlighted enough. The mayor is trying to frame a successful referendum as a fraudulent one. Dickens is priming propaganda channels and testing the waters for blatant election fraud style messaging in the future by very clearly insinuating that if you win this, that means you're cheating.

Speaker 5

The referendum kept popping up like throughout the Week of Action without it was ling up space.

Speaker 2

It was never it was never, never the focus.

Speaker 11

It was always just like on the sideline.

Speaker 5

Yeah, but it was everywhere, Like every I think every event the referendum was in some way, shape or form. You know, they're like the Home Depot rally and people walking by they were talking about the referendum and talking about the Week of Action collecting signatures.

Speaker 8

It did not feel like it was taking space away from any of the other aspects of the movement. I'm trying to I think some people were definitely worried about that, Like people worried that the referendum might act as like a release sylve for both the movement and like the people who are like out of the movement and still like looking at cop City being like, how can you get involved.

Speaker 11

In this thing?

Speaker 8

And you see this like very like above for electoral strategy of planning stuff like what if people's efforts just get funneled into that and they missed that on the other much more expansive aspects.

Speaker 11

Of the movement.

Speaker 8

One of the few more referendum focused events during the Week of Action was a community town hall discussion put on by the Hip Hop Caucus at the Gathering Spot on the evening of Friday, June thirtieth. Before the panel discussion, myself and Matt from the Atlantic Community Press Collective talked with two members of the Hip Hop Caucus about the event and their hopes for the referendum. This is Brandy Williams, an organizer with the Hip Hop Caucus.

Speaker 22

So the Hip Hop Coccus is a national nonpart is a nonprofit organization that uses hip hop culture to connect people to the civic and political process and essentially we do that in four areas. We do that with I think one hundred percent climbate and environmental justice work. We were founded as a voting and democracy organization out of the Voter Die movement, so we still do that work under our respect My Vote platform. We also have our

Good Trouble civil and human rights work. It's our multi isssue platform and we look at it as the justice department for hip hop, so we do it. We work on everything from police reform to education and healthcare, and then our Justice Paid in Full, which is our economic justice platform, So how do we achieve economic justice. We actually started our activation like on the groundwork in LA last week during bet weekend, so we did a similar

event in LA. We're doing this one here and we're planning to be here in Atlanta and through the referendum and through the election.

Speaker 8

We also talked with Theondajaha Lone Wolf and Atlanta resident and national community organizer. Recently she had been working de spread awareness across the country about what's been going on in Atlanta.

Speaker 13

Myself, hip Hop Quark is movement for Black Lives until Freedom, community movement builders. We all came up with this idea to to create this photo shoot campaign similar to voter Die or in anything, you know, with these where you have a nice shirt or a sticker and you're taking and just being there in solidarity. So we s did it during La BT Awards weekend last weekend. We had a nice turnout of folks that came. I was in

LA for the Hollywood Climate Summit. I spoke on the panel with Jane Fonda, so there was a lot of people from Hollywood that came and said, oh my god, that's what's happening in in Georgia. We have to be if we cannot sign for on the referendum, but we w we stand with you all because what we are also educating people at is that if Cop City is built, they already having contracts with police nationally to come here. This would be the largest farm police training facility in

the United States. I went to Universal Studios, Hollywood, Universal Studios. Roller Coaster's huge, just nice. It's four hundred acres. That's fifty acres less will be Cop City then, you know, and I'm like, that's an amusement park of nothing but real, real gunfire, real bombs, real real everything. It's not gonna be fake. It's not amusement park in that way, but this is their call of duty.

Speaker 5

In real life, and it's in the middle of a residential neighborhood.

Speaker 13

They're not here to protect and serve. They're here to shoot to kill. And so police from all across this nation will be coming here to Georgia for this militarized police training and that's a problem for me. And the turnout in California showed that that's a problem for them too. So we had a lot of people that came for that, and today we're doing the same thing and we're having a community town hall discussion because I think there's a lot of people that don't understand why is cop city

because the mayor. I want to meet the mayor's publicists because the way that this whole thing has been spinned on his side that no, it would be great for the EMT and the firefighters, and and they're pushing EMT firefighters more than the police part, but the police part is a huge part. I think these type of conversations need to be talked about, and so that's what this

community town hall is all about as well. For those that are kind of wavering neutral, maybe don't know, maybe they know it a lot, you know, because the number one thing that we've been seeing, like I was on V one oh three yesterday on the radio station, and I also have been doing a couple of other media and call ins, and a lot of people don't understand, like they a lot of people don't understand, like why is this a bad thing? You know, you can move

it somewhere else, they say. But even if it's moved somewhere else, I'm still gonna fight against cop city, you know, just because I have this hits home for me too. Many of my friends and family have been murdered by the hands of radical power hungry, gun happy, trigger happy police officers. And I feel that there is and then also another thing too, there is answers, you know, in regards to we don't need more police, we need resources. They shut down our hospital, they shut down the shelters.

It's not like they don't know, right, Like we tell them, we need more jobs, not just any job, good quality jobs. We need pristine health care, not just affordable healthcare. And then most importantly, it just are unsheltered friends to see that they put bulldozers. They this administration, this city continues to ignore, ignore, the people. We have the hugest, the biggest wealth gap in the nation. They and they call it Wakanda, the blackest city. But if this is how

you treat us, our people, our people need resources. That's where this sixty seven million dollars should be going. It should not be going towards a more police. We don't need more police because when you go to Cobb County, when you go over to Alpharetta, they don't have a lot of police. They don't have a lot of Why would they mean a lot of police because they already got the resources.

Speaker 8

On top of the community town hall discussion, there were a few other things to do at the event that Euanajaha talked about.

Speaker 13

Stop cop City photo campaign, So everyone you come and take your photo and just showing that you stand in solidarity, and then most importantly is to get some signatures as.

Speaker 8

Well throughout the referendum process. It's been interesting how many people, even in Atlanta are just now learning about cop City.

Speaker 5

When did you first hear about cop City?

Speaker 22

Honestly earlier this year, And and like a lot of the people that I am talking to now, I was also kind of confused about the issue. I wasn't really sure why you know, they were so opposed until I started learning a little more about what actually was going to happen at this training facility. So, the idea of building a mini city with the helicopter landing pad with a shooting range or a firing range military grade in

a community. So this is not on the outskirts. This is in a community and in a community of color, and you're bringing police from around the country in to learn military tactics, tactics that we use in foreign countries to protect citizens. We should not be thinking about our citizens, our residents as people who need to be protect did from them sales, if I'm making sense, you know what I mean.

Speaker 5

So it's sort of like enemy combatants in your own and you're.

Speaker 22

All backyard, but you're training them up in a black community. So I can only imagine that some of that many cities going to spill over into the communities. Then you're bringing police officers from around the country here, so they're taking that back.

Speaker 8

The specific community where the Atlanta Police Foundation is trying to build cop City has already been traumatized by the violence of the state.

Speaker 2

For hundreds of years.

Speaker 10

Now.

Speaker 8

This whole area was violently stolen from Muskogee Creek. Then it became a slave plantation, and then part of it was sold to the city of Atlanta, and then it became a prison farm. Since then, the land has been home to two landfills and three detention facilities. This is the history of just this neighborhood for the last few

hundred years. Now the car sort of violence inflicted on this land is attempting to be exported as police the Beast will soon come from around the country and even the world to train at copp City.

Speaker 22

No one wants it in their community, but you're going to continue to burden this particular community with the same thing over and over and over again. The people of that community for generations have experienced all kinds of harm at the hands of the people that they supposedly are electing to represent and protect them from these types of things,

and they're actually the ones doing it to them. You were elected by people to represent them, and they've told you for two years, we don't want this, and you are ignoring their voice.

Speaker 8

On the day of the Hip Hopcoccus panel and their quality alert was issued due to incoming smoke from wildfires up north in Atlanta. The AQI reached one hundred and fifty the ocean.

Speaker 13

These fish, these birds, they're screaming at us right now. What we are doing to Mother Earth right now is we are from cutting down the trees, fossil fuels, everything, this is, this is, and especially this being the lungs of Atlanta today, I'm wearing my mask because on my weather advisory it said it said the air quality is not good today for sensitive people. And that is just with the trees, and they keep on cutting down these trees. I moved here because of the trees. I'm from Arizona,

so I needed trees. That was nothing but desert. But I moved here because of these trees, because I love the life force that trees give us. Even when we see a tree, the earth is talking back to us, saying, stop doing what you're doing. The dolphins, the orcas, the wells, they're all migrant. They're like, you're the ocean is hot right now, so they are they're yelling at us. And when not listening. And as a native in my native way, our elders, our chiefs have said that we plan for

seven generations from now. I am a mother of two sons and what this administration is doing and what these corporations are doing. They're not looking at seven generations from now. They're not looking at how this is going to affect us on the long run. And I love the fact of everyone that is standing firm and saying stop cop City because we see the vision. We know what this Uchi Marka, this mother Earth is going to look like

seven generations from now. And we're fighting to our death because of the fact that we want to make sure that our children's children's children's children could still live here and be in a peaceful, safe place and environment to live.

Speaker 8

Since being elected as the Progressive candidate in twenty twenty one, there's been an ever growing animosity towards Mayor Dickens from

all of his unfulfilled promises. When talking with Nashaha, she expressed that she felt disappointed that herself and this big block of people helped Andre get elected and now Mayor Dickens is fully committed to the cop City project and is even having conversations with other black leaders in the city to bring them on board and prevent them from opposing Cop City.

Speaker 13

The mayor is in his position because of the blood, sweat and tears and arrest and beat ups that we got during freedom summer twenty twenty. He used the social justice the civil rights organizations and activists and voices to get him in the position that he used them and say, y'all help me. I'm going to be there for you all, And it's all a slap in the face. So I

don't like hypocrisy. And I see hypocrites all throughout this and on this administration side, from the governor all the way down, even when we try to help our unsheltered friends. In December, when it was so cold out here, I went on social media. I raised five thousand dollars in two hours. I went and went, Me and my friends went and got them all tents, tents, sleeping bags, everything. The mayor called my comrade. Mayor Andre called my comrade and was all like, why are you saying that they

don't have no heating stations? And I set up a heating station. Not everyone wants to go there, because so is there. Where is your mental health services? Where's the transitioning team that you should have on the ground to help transition them. Don't just open up a temporary heating shelter. Where's the transition team to go and talk to the people of saying, hey, let me walk you in to go get heated. There was none of that. You're just expecting people to just go in there or they knew.

Speaker 7

Where it was at.

Speaker 13

So we went to the cab. We went to the cab and we also went down to Atlanta. We gave them tents. The police went down there. The Atlanta PD went down there and put holes all in their tents. They slight, They used a knife and put and slice their tents open so it wouldn't they couldn't even stay in it. Yes, yes, while it was still below freezing. This is all under the administration of Mayor Andre. So no, we can't trust We can't trust them.

Speaker 5

Do you feel betrayed by Andre? Yes?

Speaker 13

Because I voted for him. I voted for him. I voted for him because I think I voted for him like every other person voted for vote for someone. Is that their charismatic They talk an amazing game, and on top of it, my friends that were close with him vote for him. My friends in the movement after this, people that I look up to from as mentorship, they said, man, Andre, he's gonna he's gonna have fund a lot of the things that we're doing.

Speaker 8

Leonaja Haw spoke about how many Dickens works to build mutually beneficial relationships between the city and non governmental quote unquote progressive organizations. So while some NGOs have received money from the city, now many of these big quote unquote civil rights orgs are scared of jeopardizing potential funding and are now currently refusing to speak out against cop City.

Speaker 13

Yeah. When I talked so, the same people that have spoken to Andre are the same people. I'm like, why don't you involved, you know, and they're just like, I think it's going to be built, and at least I'm at the table. A lot of them think that way. They was like, I was there at the beginning fighting, I had to sit down with the mayor. I believe

this is going to be built. So since this is going to be built, let me figure out at least I'm at the table in the community and there's community engagement. At least there's some type of ridging happening. That's their angle. Anyone that said Black Lives Matter was on the front line with us in twenty twenty, that that was horrified by the videos that they saw this we are at prime time. This is the epicenter of police terrorism being built. This is it, this is this is it.

Speaker 2

This is not each individual.

Speaker 13

We're trying to prevent more families, because if they build this, it's gonna be a lot more families that's gonna be crying and saying, they killed my baby. So we're out the epicenter of a cop city and you are silent. You're silent, But you was there for these families. You was there posting black lives matter. You was there saying stop police terrorism. But they're building a they're building a terrorist headquarters, and you don't have nothing to say. You're

a hypocrite. You're a hypocrite, period, point blank.

Speaker 8

Brandy also talked about the hypocrisy of pushing forward cop city after the George Floyd uprising in twenty twenty.

Speaker 22

You know, three years ago, just in May, all these companies were sending out these emails saying that black lives matter. After George Floyd. They were pouring money into the community to show their support for black lives. But some of those same communities Home Depot, Coca Cola, Delta Airlines, waffle House. You guys, are I'm sure sent those emails out, and now you're putting money into something that does not respect

black lives. So I think there's just this huge contradiction in who these companies say they are how they're showing up.

Speaker 8

Part of the growing propaganda battle over cop City is an attempt to frame this state of the arched militarized police training facility as a quote unquote public safety training center, embodying the call for police reform that liberals protested for

in twenty twenty. Not only does this erase the abolitionist core of the twenty twenty uprising, but it also obfuscates the fact that cop City is indeed a direct response to twenty twenty, not in terms of police reform, but in the aftermath of the neoliberal police state being under genuine threat. Corporate America and police have made this pact to maintain each other's legitimacy, as one cannot survive without the other. Cop City is to ensure that what happened

in twenty twenty will never happen again. After the clear cutting of around eighty acres in the Wallani Forest, there's been more of a focus on the stop Coop City wing of the movement than defend the forest. Sure, there are still three hundred acres to defend and eighty acres to restore, but as construction is getting more imminent, the specific cop city focus has taken center stage in messaging.

Speaker 22

When it was initially talked about, it was all about the environment. They're tearing down the forest and as marginalized poor people. If I am hearing that, I'm not seeing it as important. I'm trying to figure ou how much pay my rent, how muchy my kids, how I'm i pay my bills, how I'm getting to and from work, and so those things I think made it difficult to break into the households of people who really need to be paying attention. And I would dare to say even

the people in the community. I watched some of the testimony from the city council meeting several weeks ago.

Speaker 7

In the.

Speaker 22

State representative that spoke first talked about how the church right next door to the facility didn't even know what was happening next door to them. So for the City of Atlanta to say, oh, we've done outreach people in the community, No, that's not true, right. But part of that is the way that the narrative has started, and I think they were like, Okay, that ain't got nothing

to do with me. And then also the fact that the faces that they saw on t it was they're thinking this is a white lead, white organization, white problem. It's not our problem. So they haven't engaged. So I think those are all things that we have to consider that and let people know this is a diverse problem.

It impacts everybody. It's going to impact people of color and poor and marginalized communities more than anybody else, just because of the nature of how policing is done in America and so and the and the problems that we still have with that. So our program is from Red Dogs to cop City, the Dirty South history of over policing Atlanta. So helping them understand how this is just a new iteration of what's been happening. So the Red Dog Unit was at some call it a gang within

Atlanta PD for many years. It was disbanded in twenty eleven, but they were terrorizing low poor communities of color, and so cop City in the way that they're thinking about training these officers would be just a new iteration of that. So helping them understand that just because we have come far with the civil rights, with our civil rights, and I'm not even talking specifically about the sixties movement, but civil rights for people of color, women, LGBTQI plus communities.

Just because we've come far doesn't mean it can't go back.

Speaker 8

Atlanta's Red Dogs inspired the Scorpion Unit in Memphis that killed Tyree Nichols this past January, and the current iteration of the Red Dogs in Atlanta is the Apex Unit, who have been very active in suppressing stop Cop City protests. I'm going to play three brief clips from the panel discussion. The first is from Mariah Parker, a local activist and former Georgia County commissioner.

Speaker 7

This is a war on the uprise in twenty twenty.

Speaker 5

Okay, this is.

Speaker 7

Of the law of suprise in North America.

Speaker 6

The Atlanta Police Foundation, who is the main driver and living funder and actually the.

Speaker 7

Owner of prop City. I keep forgetting the fact that this is not actually going to go busy.

Speaker 6

The old Police Foundation trying to reassert their control over black communities at a time when people are starting to understand that communities are made safe for by afordable housing and healthcare and childcare and education, and where They're supremacy in the public safety apparatus has been challenged, their dominance has been challenged, and so in response to that uprising, they seized hold of the narrative that more police training, more diversity in our officers would be the magic key

to heal all the wounds in our communities and to actually deliver.

Speaker 7

A style of policing that serves some people.

Speaker 6

And so with that they were able to make arguments that cop city would be the answer to right.

Speaker 7

Allegedly rising crime rates.

Speaker 6

He always divides, et cetera, et cetera, when at the end of the day, they it's like it's a form of counter insurgency. The people rose up, and so this is the police rising up in response to reassert their dominance.

Speaker 8

Next is kJ Henson, an Atlanta local and organizer with Black Men Build and Blackmail Initiative Georgia.

Speaker 7

Where's clear that the police are not our protectors.

Speaker 5

Right, we.

Speaker 7

Suffered at the hands of the system on a daily basis.

Speaker 10

Right, the system was built upon our backs literally.

Speaker 23

So we see that we've been discarded, we've been abused by the system.

Speaker 7

And that's the point. It's not that we're disengaged because we don't care. We're disengaged because we do care. Right, every election cycle, it's black voters to the rescue. We're the folks that are most.

Speaker 23

Impacted by the decisions of the same elected officials that beg us to put them in position.

Speaker 7

We suffer because these people come to us and beg for votes, for canvassers, for money, and they turn around and they sell us out the first chance they need.

Speaker 2

So we're disengaged of a.

Speaker 8

Matter of.

Speaker 7

I can't get what I need from these people that say that they're for me. Right, the very means of the people are at risk.

Speaker 23

Cop city threatenings are very right to protest.

Speaker 7

Right, cop city threatens the.

Speaker 23

Right for us to stand in the street and use our voice as a means of building collective power as a.

Speaker 7

Viata cool for making societal change.

Speaker 2

You become a domestic terrorist, you get.

Speaker 7

Jailed without bail, without bond, you won't have a court date. I've been there myself, not for proestic terrorism.

Speaker 11

But just beco recording.

Speaker 23

So we're seeing the rise of fascism in a very real way.

Speaker 7

Like in the realistic ways.

Speaker 23

Comp City, like you said, is ground and zero for what would become a very popular trend, not just in America but across the world right.

Speaker 2

So it's on us to make sure that we do everything that's in our.

Speaker 7

Power to make sure that this day is stopped. Cop City is.

Speaker 23

Giving police the training and the ability to have urban warfare and suppression tactics at their will to.

Speaker 7

Be used against the people. Urban warfare and suppression not like thinking, not unlike what we.

Speaker 23

See in other countries, in other cities with organized resistance.

Speaker 8

Every Lastly, we have Reverend Keana Jones, member of the Faith Coalition Do Stop Cop City, whom we've heard from on this show before.

Speaker 7

I want every Black Atlanta to think about what you don't have.

Speaker 24

If you don't have affordable housing, it's because they putting the money.

Speaker 7

In the cop CI.

Speaker 6

If you can't pay your life bill, it's because that assistance got given back to the federal government, but they paying for cop C.

Speaker 25

If there are no policing alternatives and no urgent initiatives getting your communities, if they've given the money to cop sick, If you fell into that pop hoole on Posilion, it's because they give it the money to top C. If you can't walk out of your door and breath clean airs because they rather get it to top C.

Speaker 7

So Andre Diickins does not care about black people. I'm gonna do a Kanye West right now, but.

Speaker 24

I'm saying, I'm Murray Gigons don't care about black people.

Speaker 25

And Andre Nickens ain't no different than nobody else and some of those other so people out there who have.

Speaker 6

Those soul called names ain't doing nothing but black people. So once the game, what is Andre Diga is doing for you?

Speaker 24

If he is willing to say police and make sure that they got slot takes to roll around they walking around the ars in your neighborhood, your children walking out the house to hearing good shots constantly, What the Andre giggets care about you?

Speaker 7

Does his children hear that?

Speaker 13

Okay?

Speaker 10

God?

Speaker 8

It is important to mention the venue that that this was that this panel took place in, because this is like a very much like a it feels it feels like a black excellent type of like space, like that is the space.

Speaker 9

That it is.

Speaker 11

It's it is, it is a private club. It holds like an amount.

Speaker 5

Of like respect there cultural significance.

Speaker 8

And on this panel at at the gathering spot, the panelists were we're talking about how why Why is the mayor who meant many these people helped get elected because he had promises about, you know, helping out the community, giving millions of dollars to affordable housing. Why is he using now like sixty seventy million dollars that could go to affordable housing, that could go towards supporting black people

in Atlanta. This is funneling all of that money into the police and into not even like the police department, a private police foundation, like funding the APFS.

Speaker 11

Project, not a city project.

Speaker 8

I think it was Keana who said that Andre Dickens does not care about black people. Yeah, and having that be said at the gathering spot, I think actually is very important and is worth worth talking about. As the referendum was progressing and people from across all sides of the movement, we're working in conjunction to spread awareness of Copcity and engage in action, the mayor was making attempts to divide the movement.

Speaker 10

Criminals are hiding in the middle of peaceful protests and sometimes they are doing their own separate acts of violence. Some of them are career arsonists and vandals from across the nation. Local activists have been alerted to this numerous times. These are the actions of blatantly outrageous, dangerous, and violent criminals. How are arsonists, vandals, violent actors able to be alongside

peaceful protesters. You have individuals that will burn up construction equipment, light a fire to police vehicles, and then have a bouncy house party the next day with peaceful protesters at a park. So they will go to a park by day, and then by night they're burning up police equipment or setting fires or trying to destroy construction equipment. So these individuals are trying to use the guys of peaceful protests that maybe some local Atlantans may actually be engaged in

desired conversation about their views on public safety. But these individuals have different views than those folks. These individuals are anarchists. They want to destroy. So these individuals are alongside these arsonists, these criminals are alongside peaceful protesters, and sometimes the peaceful protesters are aware of it, and sometimes they are not.

We have made it clear to local activists that we know and individuals that tend to be peaceful, We're letting them know that we are aware that there are individuals that are in our city that have committed crimes across the nation, and that they are on your social media or in your network saying they're coming to your event to do the same.

Speaker 8

Mayor Dickens went further and essentially threatened that if you are a so called activist and you don't snitch, then the APD will treat you the same as a violent criminal.

Speaker 10

So when we give you that heads up as a local organizer, you should take that heads up and also see something, say something as we're asking any other the citizen to do. When peaceful protesters, when organizers are not utilizing their best judgment, then bad things can happen with them being alongside them, and it makes it real tough for APD to know who was the one with the

dirty hands, so to speak. And so that's what the message that we want to get out to the public is that these individuals mean harm and you don't want to be around them or associated with them. When you are, it makes it difficult to tell who's who.

Speaker 8

The city wants the various wings of the fight to stop cop City to turn on each other, to resent each other, to so distrust and undermine any collective power. That's why the referendum's statement of solidarity explicitly rejecting respectability politics and the framing of violent and nonviolent resistance was so important, and online communicate claiming responsibility for torching police motorcycles on the last day of the Week of action

addressed this dynamic quote. We took action after non combative demonstrations at Cadence Bank and Home Depot. The police attacked those demonstrations with no cause, as they do wherever and however the movement gathers. There can be no separation of time and space for tactics when police have turned society into a war zone. Despite this, we dispersed our activity as much as possible across their area of control. We encourage those who are pursuing a strategy of referendum to

continue supporting all methods to stop cop City. If you defy the state's unilateral authority in any way, you will be seen as a valid target. As demonstrated throughout the history of this movement, including during this last Week of action, police will treat you like a violent criminal, whether you're holding a sign in a parking lot, bailing activists out

of jail, or smashing a cop car. Only a group of activists in unincorporated Decab County, near the potential site of cop City, filed a lawsuit against the City of Atlanta and the State of Georgia, claiming the requirement that signature gatherers must themselves be Atlanta residents violated their First

Amendment right to free speech and petition the government. Due to the potential constitutional violation, the lawsuit also requested the court reset the sixty day clock for gathering signatures while still counting the signatures that were already gathered.

Speaker 11

In mid July, the.

Speaker 8

City of Atlanta filed a reply in federal court arguing that the cop City referendum was wholly invalid since it seeks to revoke a land lease that has already been signed. The filing reads, in part, quote, repeal of a year's old ordinance cannot retroactively revoke authorization to do something that has already been done. But if the referendum could claim to result in a revocation or cancelation of the lease, they would still be invalid because it would amount to

an impermissible impairment of that contract unquote. The city also argued that if the court does deem the Atlanta residency requirement for gathering signatures unconstitutional, then the entire referendum should be deemed unlawful. A rebuttal by the plaintiffs said that the city did not provide factual or legal evidence for

its claims and misread the cited precedence. According to the plaintiffs, the land lease contract is ongoing, not an irreversible quote unquote one time event, and since the city authorized and issued the petition form, they skipped their chance to argue that the referendum is somehow invalid by already approving the language of the petition and letting the referendum process begin.

Near the end of July, US District Court Judge Mark Cohen ruled in favor of the cop city referendum, allowing non Atlanta residents to collect signature and reset the sixty day clock to collect the roughly sixty thousand signatures needed to put the land lease on the ballot. In his ruling, Judge Mark Cohen said, quote requiring signature gatherers to be residents of the city imposes a severe burden on core political speech and does little to protect the city's interest

in self governance unquote. Mary hooks. The tactical lead of the referendum coalition reacted to the ruling, saying quote, we are thrilled by Judge Cohen's ruling and the expansion of democracy to include our cab neighbors and level the playing

field for our coalition unquote. The city quickly filed for an appeal, which was subsequently denied on August fourteenth, with the judge stating quote, the city's real concern may be that now that non residents have the ability to gather signatures on the petition for the entire time that they would have been permitted to do so had their initial request been granted, there is an increased possibility that a

sufficient number of valid signatures could be obtained. As liberals cheered on the Fulton County District Attorney in Atlanta for indicting Trump and co conspirators for election tampering under rico charges, the same exact sort of charges that this office has used against young black rappers and have been wielded against the Stop Cop City movement, the City of Atlanta's own election interference by repressing the referendum has been largely ignored.

Fulton County Court set Trump's bond for two hundred thousand dollars for attempting to overthrow a federal election. The same court set bond at three hundred and fifty five thousand dollars each for multiple protesters arrested for being merely present

at a protest. After Georgia State Patrol killed force defender Torteguita in January of this year, during all of the glowing press for District Attorney Fanny Willis and the City of Atlanta, it was revealed that on August eleventh, the Atlanta Police Department killed a sixty two year old, unarmed black man named Johnny Holman while responding to a minor traffic accident. Both Holman and the unnamed second driver called nine one one after the accident. Holman told nine one

one operators, quote, somebody ran into my truck unquote. After waiting for over an hour for police to arrive, twenty three year old officer Kiaran Kimbro responded to the scene. Kimbro joined APD in March of twenty twenty one and currently has an open complaint for quote sexual misconduct non

criminal unquote. Johnny Holman, who served as a deacon in his church, called his kids to listen to how the officer was escalating the situation, and then an unknown witness helped this APD officer wrestle sixty two year old Johnny Holman to the ground and put him in handcuffs as the officer used his taser. To quote the Atlantic Community Press Collective quote, the children listen for seventeen minutes as they drove to the scene of the accident, hearing their

father call for help after officer kimbro tased him. When they arrived on scene, they found officers giving chest compressions to their father.

Speaker 3

Unquote.

Speaker 8

Johnny Holman was then pronounced dead at Grady Hospital. A week after APD killed Holman, Another person incarcerated at Fulton County Jail died while being held on five thousand dollars bond after being denied seing the trebond for shoplifting less than five hundred dollars of goods. The City of Atlanta's

own alleged voter suppression has continued. Initially, the cop city vote referendum hoped to not have to use the extra day is granted by the judge and submit the collected signatures on August twenty first, with the intention of getting

them verified in time. To put the cop city vote on the upcoming November ballot come Monday, August twenty first, the referendum of put out statement that, despite collecting over one hundred thousand signatures, that they are delaying submitting the petition due to concerns that the city was going to

employ voter suppression tactics during the validation process. The statement reads, in part quote, In recent days, we began to hear from reporters and sources inside city Hall that the City of Atlanta is planning to argue for a higher than

previously reported legal minimum signature count for ballot access. More concerning were reports that they also planned to utilize signature match in their verification process, an archaic and widely abandoned tool of voter suppression that has been widely condemned across the political spectrum, including by the Republican controlled Georgia State legislature.

Signature matching is a subjective form of a vote validation, which uses election workers to visually match signatures on a ballot or in this case of petition, to a previous signature on their driver's license or voter registration card. Hours after the referendum's statement, the city of Atlanta officially announced their intention to use his signature matching for the cop city vote referendum. Back in twenty eighteen, a federal judge in Georgia ruled that signature matching did not serve any

legitimate interest and disenfranchised black and brown voters disproportionately. For years, the ACLU has advocated against and won multiple court cases

against discriminatory signature matching processes. Fair Fight Action, a Georgia based voting rights organization founded by Stacy Abrams, responded to the news Atlanta would be using signature matching with a statement saying, quote, signature matching is a tool of voter suppression that litigated extensively in Georgia and removed from the mail in ballot process because of its harm to voters

resulting in mass disenfranchisement. Using the discredited process of signature matching is unacceptable and risks unfairly rejecting thousands of valid petitions. Signature of verification is notoriously subjective, disproportionately impacts voters of color, and as biased against disabled and elderly voters. There is extensive precedent in Georgia showing the harms of this process,

it must be relegated to the past. Fair Fight calls on the City of Atlanta to rescind their intent to use this process and to enact steps that fairly evaluate these petitions unquote. Facing the City of Atlanta's quote open and ongoing hostility to the cop city vote referendum, the coalition has decided to use the time extension granted by federal Judge Mark Cohen to continue collecting signatures to quote leave no doubt as to the will of Atlantic voters unquote.

They now plan to submit petition signatures on September twenty third. The City Council will then have fifty days to validate the signatures, which means that, if successful, and assuming the city doesn't further interf the referendum would get put on the ballot during the March primary election in twenty twenty four. The vote being pushed into March adds a few complications.

Turnout may skew more Republican as it's unlikely there will be a Democratic presidential primary, and the vote being seven months away disrupts the momentum that the campaign has been gaining over the past couple of months. People who sign the petition back in June would have to wait almost

a whole year to vote on the ballot. The few extra months does give more time to educate the public about Cop City during a lead up to the election, but that goes both ways, which means that after two years of this movement mostly taking form as a ground war over territory, now for the time being, much of the fight to stop Cop City will change into a

pr war in the public sphere. This shift from a physical offense to a metaphysical offense was something that I already felt coming back during the Week of action in terms of like cameras and spectacle the other The big feeling I had on the Saturday kickoff rally was like this just feels like society of the spectacle, Like.

Speaker 5

There's such a performance.

Speaker 8

It was very performative, but it was like almost like with all of the cameras looking at everything all the time, it was like are people trying to make a proximily of this movement for the cameras? Like is that has become almost more important?

Speaker 5

Or like it felt that way.

Speaker 8

This is a conversation that people have, like is it worth creating moments where we expect the police to lash out violently, Like, is that effective as a propaganda tactic?

Speaker 5

Yeah, and that if comes with losing while looking good, it does.

Speaker 8

Yeah, that is like, that is losing while looking good. But also I don't think that's nearly as effective as people think it is. I think after twenty twenty, I think people are kind of desensitized to a lot of police violence at protests. The visual the visuals of police hurting protesters, I don't think is nearly as impactful as

it was even three years ago. So I think people are also realizing that and realizing that, hey, the sacrifice inherent in setting up actions where you know that you're probably going to get fucked up by police, that's not worth it. That one, it treats people as like tools. It treats people as disposable, which is, you know, that's not great if you want to build a long lasting movement,

And that's not even very effective. As the public relations battle over the fate of cop City intensifies in the lead up to the vote, with the City of Atlanta undoubtedly ready to run a full election propaganda campaign, strategies of resistance cannot overlook the physical construction of the facility. Pre construction has been active and ongoing for a few months now, mostly in the form of tree clearing and

land grading. Just a few days ago, the Atlanta Police Foundation updated their construction timeline, saying that they had just began installing a stone base for the main roadway, that irrigation and site lighting is now underway, and full lawn construction is set to quote begin in the next week

or so. Unquote That now may be out of date, but based on the progress being made on the site, it's clear that construction is now imminent, and with the threat of the referendum, the APF will try to get as much built as quickly as possible to help with the pro cop city side of election messaging. One of the original goals of the referendum was to try to place an injunction on further construction until the ballot vote,

but it's unknown if or when that would happen. In the meantime, activists may take a queue from Earth First and instead of trying to occupy the site, instead they might find creative ways to make the construction site hard to work on with the increased element of spectacle, placing a lot of extra eyes on pre announced public demonstrations,

more secretive actions may start becoming more common. There's other actions that can happen more covertly, like if you're doing sabotage where you don't need to invite a camera crew to film.

Speaker 5

You do crimes. Why is move Why is?

Speaker 8

But no, it's also like as a rule, like why That's the other thing is like so many of these events during during these weeks of action are pre planned. That not only gives media heads up on like we're gonna film this, and this is also gonna that's gonna change the actions that happened while this is happening because everyone knows they're being launched, it also gives police heads.

Speaker 7

Up to.

Speaker 5

Shut down the paths your intrudgment career.

Speaker 8

So that I think that comes with the Week of Action format because if people coming in from out of town, they don't know where to go, if they're not already tied in with the movement, they don't know what what what exactly to do. So that's that's another thing that thinks could change during future actions that may not be.

Speaker 11

Part of the Week of Action is more covert.

Speaker 8

Let's pre planned, pre announced actions that are maybe a little bit more mischievous. In their recent statement on voter suppression, the referendum also announced, quote the coalition will consider using upcoming opportunities for non violent direct actions to direct the people's frustration with the city council's obstruction of the democratic

process unquote. Camal Franklin of Community Movement Builders added quote, if the city needs to see a demonstration of the people's commitment to the issue, we're happy to provide one.

Speaker 2

Unquote.

Speaker 8

Police intentionally denying anarchists operating space by occupying the Wolani themselves may shift the more liberal side of the movement to now focus on rallies and events around the construction site, which could also inadvertently draw eyeballs away and open up other territory across the city that might be more vulnerable to attack by small groups to quote the direct action communicate claiming respont onsibility for torching the police motorcade on

July first. Quote, while signatures are collected, the police are still killing. We cannot wait. If the referendum fails, actions like ours and Boulder will be the only means available unquote. With construction imminent, subcontractor tensions increasing and the City of Atlanta gambling with voter suppression. Right now, the movement really cannot afford to alienate the green anarchists that pioneered the

early legitimacy of this movement with bold direct action. The Atlanta Police Foundation is trying to snatch a victory from the jaws of defeat. What happens in the next few months may push Atlanta to a dangerous tipping point. No matter the endpoint of this particular struggle, victory or defeat cannot be imagined as the end. The fight against Coppcity is one large battle in an ongoing war, a war of police militarization, racism, environmental justice, and against the incestuous

neoliberal police state in its leviathan like formation. Based on what happens here in Atlanta, similar police project proposals will be recalibrated. As the South goes, so goes the nation. Capitalist realism posits that history is over, that it's a literal thing of the past, But it turns out you're living through it right now, so what will you do

to create it? You can read more about the fights to stop Coopcity at Atlpresscollective dot com and donate to the Atlanta Solidarity Fund at atlsolidarity dot org.

Speaker 11

See you on the other side.

Speaker 1

Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe. It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.

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It Could Happen Here Weekly 97 | Behind the Bastards podcast - Listen or read transcript on Metacast