It Could Happen Here Weekly 48

can make your own decisions. Hello, and welcome to it could Happen here podcast about how the world is falling apart and sometimes about how people are putting it back together. What is today? It's me. I'm James if you haven't worked that out yet, and I'm joined by screen to say Hi, Shreen, Hi, This is Sharian, thank you, and

I'm joined today by Vicente Calderon. He's a freelance journalist and they're proprietor publisher of Tijuana Press dot com and he's covered the situation on the granted Tijuana for a very long time. I'm an excellent work and we've sent you what your people know about you. Nice to have you here. Thank you to you for the invitation, and in advance, I have to apologize for my English, because it's a picture of the street and the Tijuana streets. It's excellent to take a picture in the world kind

of English here. I'm a real original psychologist. I graduated from the School of Psychology here, but I only worked for a couple of years and then I got stuck with journalism, and I have been here for more than thirty years by now. I've been doing journalism from radio, and then I moved to television, and then I went to the US to the work with Spanish language media twice in l A and then I came back and now I'm I'm doing online or or digital medium journalism,

so to speak. So I'm a native here and again I was just supposed to be working on this for a while and feel like old enough to look like a psychologist. Just got God on the on the um addiction for journalism, Yeah I understand. Yeah, yeah, that's fascinating. All right. So the reason we to talk to you today is that we have seen a dramatic increase in

violence in Tijuana since Friday. Right, we're recording this on the Tuesday, the sixteenth of August, so if people listening to it later, they don't know, but can you explain a little bit of what happened over the weekend in Tijuana and then across Mexico as well. Well, the thing began on Friday here in Mexicali and Tijuana. Mexicali is the capital of the state of Baja California, which is

in the northwestern side the end of the US Mexico border. Um, So we began seeing people burning cars on the road. They were just ordering people from public transportation to get off the vehicle. Uh not in a very so to speak, threatening matter kind of way, because they said, well, the problem is that we do but you have to get off because otherwise because when we're going to burn this bus, and and nobody was actually no, it was really heard intentionally.

We have just in Tijuana, we have about fifteen cases like that. Was mainly public transportations vehicles or some cases trugs, cargo trugs or private vehicles, but most of it were public transportation vehicles. But people were working, and we're moving people from their homes to their works or to want to run one errand to on the other side. So we began to see that this was in a very limited space of time happening not only in in Tijuana and in Mexicali, but also in five out of seven

cities of Baja California. Nobody was claiming responsibility, but it looks like it was a coordinated effort in the basically

the main cities of the state. We were very surprised because even though we have been dealing with drug violence for many decades by now, we've never seen something who looks like the narco locales or blockades of the streets with drug traffickers, which are unfortunately very common in other cities like monter Terrey, for example, recently in Jalisco on the Pacific coasts in the central part of Mexico, but

not here in Tijuana. I mean, I know it sounds rare or strange for many people who knows one of our his bad reputation, but now we never had cases like this before. That's why it was so surprising. At the end that was on Friday, and then immediate the local authorities began to explay, not only police from different different agencies or also soldiers who were coincidentally so to speak. We're here in big numbers and large numbers because there's a really big push to put out more soldiers to

help with public safety and Mexico. Not everybody is pleased with that because they say that Mexico is becoming a militarized country and it shouldn't be because we have to We're trying to be a democracy, and in a democracy, is not the military or the army in charge of so much responsibility. But that's something that has been changing, specifically with this new federal administration with the president, and so they sent out all of the soldiers and police

officers and things basically diminished. But but that time in about let in about less than two hours, people was already really scared. Obviously, the news spread and social media and people began worrying. Also, they began seeing that the public transportation was not enough because many were just came to a halt. I mean, and not just the public transportation, the officials of the city, but all the digital platform like uber Diddy or other services. We're just worried that

it might be the next one. So if I stay on the roads, am I going to be the target of these guys. We were not sure what was going on. We I guess everything one has like an idea that this was coming or linked to drug trafficking, but we were not sure at that time. So um in a couple of hours every we didn't see more of these cases. But at that time the city was really disrupted, so they began closing. I mean the first thing who affected was public exportation, so people was stranded without with no

ways to go to back home. And some schools were counseling classes and since the students were not able to find transportation, some offer places to stay and spend the night on the schools. Also that happened in in Um with other companies, with the Makila plants, the manufacturing plants that are very popular. There's thousands of people here and in Tijuana who were there also in medically, but here also they in some cases have to open spaces so

they can spend the night there. And we went out and was a lot of people stranded with no place, with no way to move from where they were when they began. Yeah, I saw even like Kelly Max that the supermarket was classed right like the day closed early and they announced that the next day they will hold the operations that they will not open so they will not put in jeopardy to the safety of their workers.

I mean, and they that during Friday, we didn't know what really what was going on, how severe was this happening. And just keep in mind that on Friday, Friday was the end of the of a week of very violent scenes in different cities. It began in Guadalajara when they were the army was trying to capture a couple of drug lords or chief of cells from the uh calis the haliska new generation cartel which is the quote unquote newest and the strongest and most rapidly spund the drug

organization in Mexico. And the progress there, the dynamic was very very different. Again in Tijuana, even after the weekend, nobody was killed. Just one person in the CALLI got injured due to burns when while they were burning his truck, but apparently nothing major. So in the case of what

House a bit different. There were at gunpoint pulling people, families out of their private vehicles and also bosses and there there they were really actually located roads in an effort to disrupt the operation from the soldiers trying to capture their their bosses, and so the biody as well were way more strong sort of speak there and after that he moved to one of Gato, another state where well there's high presence of Cartel Alisco New Generation, and

two days later we saw the worst case into the aquaries across from the Passo. Texas is also another border town or border city should say that has in dealing with a lot of drug trafficking caves and and the things was terribly worse there. I mean they were there killing civilians randomly. They got to convene its stores like think about your seven eleven. The counterparty is called also it's a very uh big change chain uh in a. In one of these cases they just went in open

fire to the cashier and they killed him. In other cases, a pregnant woman got killed and another one since they burned this these places, the woman who there's two persons who died due to association because they got were cut up. They were not able to flee the place. When this guys we were showing up there, many of these guys were also yelling or screaming, UM, hooray for the calis con and Ras. Young boss's called or Sageta, I can't remember.

He's not Mencho, Mencho, Mencho his nickname Mencho or Saghara is the leader of Calisco New Generation, and they were just praising him and just saying that there were people from Mencho and just they were just celebrating him as

they were doing all this destruction and terrorizing people. So the worst part was in sadly, I'm not saying that this was not bad, but just we have to put it on perspective and fortunately here suldly for the people's Fortunately for the people here, nobody was injuring those activities on Friday. That diminished on Saturday, but we got more cases on Sunday night and Mexically and we actually have four about four cases on the first the last hours

of Monday in Ensenada. We are still seeing if all of these have been related to the same effort due to organized crime, or are just copycats because unfortunately, unfortunately that also is happening some of the cases in Vehicali that happened on Sunday night. We're according to the chief of police there, just copycasts were just taking advantage of

the situation. I see, Well, that's that's interesting because until someone takes responsibility, even if they do, all the talks about like what cartels are, what that's just like in theory right because there you don't know who's doing what Am I understanding correctly? Well, yes, because it's it's not like when a terrorist organization claimed responsibility for a vombinum

in the Middle East, for example. But here the thing is now the authorities are saying that it's well, that was not just one but different organizations they blame, and mainly on Aliska New Generation, because it's one of the along with this in a cartel are broadly extended in the state, different states, and in this particular case they can link it in the case of Jalisco and Guaguato because they got information of these two bosses getting into

a meeting and that's why they reacted. In in the case of Gas was different because everything began there with a dispute within inmates of the local jail where they are clearly two factions from the the two main organisms stations who have been controlling turf in the parties. Here we were not sure because unfortunately we have not just

one or two. We have a tree drug cartels or trafficing organizations who have been acting or the link in UH for the several years right now, which is the Realiskan New generation, the one we talked about, which is the relatively newest organization they seen. A long cartel who has been from the cradle of drug African Mexico steps in Alloa, expanding the routes that I'm sure they know.

A chapel from the Narco series very popular now has been the public anime number one according to Chicago for about eight years ago and now in a in a jail in New York. But there their sons and their associates are still operating their trafficing organization along different routes in Mexico and and Baha, California is one of those routes where they have a lot of strong presence. And also the Ariano Felix drug organization, the so called Tijuana cartel that is very popular has its own UM series

on Netflix as part of Narcos Mexico. This is the relevance of these kids who who grow up as as criminals at the border between Tijuana and San Diego. So we nobody has claimed responsibility UM as in other cases, but I think it's it's it's safe to know that these are the main suspects in the case of Tiquana. It's also the possibility that the field between these three organizations um was an excuse for this level of violence.

I mean, everybody is trying to be the strongest force, so they challenge themselves not on this not only in the streets, but on social media. And this was also a way to challenge the authorities because even though the authorities reacted quickly kind of subdue more or frustrate more events, they were able to burn fifteen cars at the end of the week, and we're thirty six in different areas in different cities. So that is not something that you

can say another authorities. The military chief of the country saying, well with in Tijuana didn't attempted against so the civilians, well they did. They didn't kill them, but they burned their property and they disrupted the whole operation. So we are also seeing very carefully the way they local, the local and national authorities are reacting because we were lucky now, but this is probably will happen again if there's not

a really strong response from an intelligent response from the authorities. Yeah, okay, I'm sorry if I'm sorry if this is silly, but is there any deeper meeting to it being specifically public transportation like it just seems so specific to like target how civilians are like transporting themselves. It's just like a show of power to be like We're going to make everyone freeze, or there is there any deeper meaning to like what they're targeting, not that I understand so far.

I mean for me right now is because as they did, they were successful and bringing the city to a halt. I mean we went out and just think this was a Friday summer night in a revolution. Who has seen a renaissance the last for the last ten years. There's a lot of people coming from the U. S Side and from Mexico to enjoy the gastronomy, local the bars,

the party scene, what's dead. The only people we were found we found there Friday night was UM workers that were not able to find an uber or the uber was I talked to some of the uber drivers, the did drivers. To me, it went from one to seven. I mean something will cost you ten dollars were costing the press was now seven seventy dollars due to the

high demand and poor offer. So no, I don't find another another explanations so far, so far with the information that we have until now, um that could explain, but they did reach a big impact with the relatively easy

actions after all these coordinator the attacks. Yeah, it's probably worth mentioning the context of in one of goose months kids was arrested and I believe eighteen I'm not going to dates, but around then, and there was a huge, huge increase in violence immediately following that, right and eventually amblow the president gave the order to release him and oh that was yeah, that was my recent was a video one of the main sons in in something that we call the Kulia is the name of the city,

is the capital of the status. As we said, I have probably my mother is from Sinaloa and some people from sin offender when we said that it's a cradle of drug trafficking in Mexico because most of the power, the law, the drug laws come from from from Sinaloa. But yeah, you're right, you're right. Uh, And that's something that has become a big recurrent topic when people criticize, especially the political opposition the current president, because they said,

this is the origin of this kind of demonstrations. So when when when the government wants to act. Now the criminals know that an effort a coordinated effort to get out on the streets and to show their muscle, could um make the government to think twice, to hold their operation and to free in some cases these guys. Again, in the case of Jalisco, they were on the way, according to the official statement from the Mexican Army, to

try to capture these two leaders. But didn't happen. I mean, the criminals get organized to blockade the actions of the authorities. In the case of Iquana, we were not. We didn't get to that point. Was more like there's also one theory which says that the local chapter or to speak of the cat as I was just trying to replicate what happened there, just to to show the force, to

demonstrate the muscle as as a criminal organization here in Tijuana. Yeah, that's basically the two theories that a dispute between them and the other one is that, um, they were just replicating a little bit in a in a in a different dimension, so to speak, what happened in just to tell them, you know the same here, this is what you're gonna be facing. And that was a message for

the authorities. Yeah, I saw a resident compared to what it was like in the early stages of COVID, like how ghost town it was, and I mean, what do you think about it? That's pretty powerful if a cartel can have the impact of a pandemic, if not more so, it's it's it's terrifying. I can't imagine. I think it's worse when we went out when COVID first begun in the lockdown. And this will be too silly, but there's the red like districts that never sleeps here. We went

to that particular horridor. Nobody was in the main drag there. But it's a reality when we we we just we went out and we got video of this streets basically empty. Yeah, your video on your Twitter. We we'll find a way to link to. It was incredible. It was just like it it's normally like the Strip in Las Vegas or something, and it was just a ghost town ghost Yeah. Again, the only people we found there was people looking for transportation. Yeah,

that's crazy. So there's been a massive, at least show of state power in Tijuan and the last I don't know, four or five six months, like they're constantly rotating new trips in They do the parades with a big flag and it's like to looking from the outside from a less informed perspective, it looks like there are these various actors, right, and each of them sort of flexes their muscles in

a different way. And and it is that relevant here has to They discovered a tunnel, if I remember correctly, Have they done much else in Baja since I started

these big deployments. No, that's one of the main complaints of the locals organizations, civil or civilian organizations here, because even though we have I'm gonna I make some notes, and we have five thousand, six hundred and sixty soldiers UM right now in the state of Baja California, most of them in Tijuana, who have been deployed since August last year, which is when the natural Australity, Australity of peace as the government called it, begun. UM. But unfortunately

I can give an other statistics. We have only just in Tijuana, in the municipality of Tikuana so far this year, i'll most one thousand, two hundred homicides. I mean we as as a city, as a municipality, we have way more homicides than many Mexican states. This is the level of violence that we are dealing with in a daily basis.

And and this is when you hear the authorities talking about a reduction on homicides, which is true, probably true in terms of the numbers of statistics, but still one thousand. We're we're a little bit past half the year, and we already passed one thousand homicide. I mean, when people get alarmed in Chicago is when you are hitting. I remember a couple of years, but like five hundred and the whole year. We have this in three months, and and and this is the kind of of problems that

we're dealing with. But you have to also keep it in mind. Last week the d o J of the US, the FBI, the d A, Customs and Border Protection have a gathering to announce that San Diego became the epist center for smuggling of fentadel. Six of the seizures of Fentonel in all the nations occur between Sanito, the main port of entry here in San Diego, to Calexico. And there's there's six parts of entry in this stretch of land at the end of the border, on the western

end of the border. Well these places is where more than half of the phantomel that is being smuggled to the US. It's going through. That will explain partly the level of biodies that we've been didn't and how even though there's good efforts by the local authorities, state and local authorities, I mean, even given that there's cases of

corruption as in any other agency. UM always say that we have great, very capable detectives and police officers and Mexico but there but in many cases there's no political will from their bosses to really act on on and the on the benefited benefiting the public. So this is

the kind of building the problem the world. You know, Fantany is now the most lucrative drug to to transport or traffic and between Mexico and the US, even with all the problem that is contined in the US with more than one and two people dying in the last year or overdoses linked to opioids, but also now we have a problem that is growing with people dying with

fantanyl overdose. Besides the fantony, the mental fantamine problem that also has been increasing the traffic here and now we are seeing the comeback of some drugs trafficking and deep and new levels like heroin and cocaine who came out of fashion for a while, but I always doing a kind of a resurgence at least in this corridor. Yeah, that's fascinating like that that there's been an increase specifically

coming through that Baja California area. Maybe then we should explain a little bit about these three actors, right they c J n G will call them the cut the Sinaloa and the Ariana Felix or Tijuana cartel. Can you explain a little bit about who they are and where they sort of fit into this where they come from? Maybe, well, I basically all come from the uh people are watching Netflix,

Narcos and Netflix. They talk about this federation of cartels again everything the main power was from the state of Sinaloa, and between nineteen mid nineties n mid nineties, when the rest of Felix Gayarlo they reestablished. They distribute the route and one was the one of the Pacific along the Pacific from Sinaloa to the along the Pacific, and they basically um cut the country into different the main routes,

and then you have different organizations. Those organizations who used to be together became a powerful house on their own, and that has increased the violence from the nineties because now you have from the beginning they are Yano Felix who used to be partners with the chapel Uh and

there are been in disputes and feuds among them. So the main one is was the main one and oldest is the Sinaloa cartel head by the chap cobusman Uh and now is myel el Mario Stambada, which is still a gentleman, gentleman around probably getting to their eighties, I'm not quite sure, but but who has been on the run for many years, but relatively calm and with big investments and with the high presence here in California, with that faction of this in a cartel, and that's a

local also when after the arrest of the chapel is it's run. And the other big faction for the sons of Chapo gusman Video and and the lost chapter, they call it los Chapitos. There's like three three Ivana, Chivado and I can't remember the name of the other one. So that's it's in a cartel with with presence but mainly in the northern part and really mainly basically basically Uh their thing is to manufacturing um madam, petomine and

now fanelil and send it to the US. UM then they are the Yellow Felix Ru organization who became as a result of that division, that distribution that according to the most commonly non narrative about drug world, um Felix the true that after his arrest established themselves in i Juana. They are from Sinaloa too, but they established themselves from

Tijuana in the actually in the eighties. But at the nineties they became powerful on its own and they due to the proximity of San Diego and to the fact that they missed mixed with many of the border lifestyle a lad of Tijuana, they changed the image of the drug trafficker demor became more entrepreneurs and they wanted to become the main the first Mexican cartel, Colombian pabulous of our style. According to the narrative, no, and they did.

They became the nineties they were most one of the most powerful drug organization in the world for the amount of not just marijuana cocaine that they were moving. I mean they established relationships with Colombian and after a while Colombians were not trafficking in Mexico. They were just sending the drug to the Mexicans. At the beginning, they were Columbians were kind of leasing the routes in the Mexican

territory to send the drugs into the US. But then when this division of a new commerce and the drug trade in Mexico, they decide, and I think the rio Fas have some um something to do with that, they want to go and get the drugs from Colombians in the South and South America and bringing and just take care of the whole thing. So become their own curtel. And then then another off off shoot, this is what you call it like spinoff, spinoff kind of another way.

All the of this in a log because they used to have a presence in Guallajara and the different factions were killing each other, changing loyalties, and then began a force on their own um after a big division between the beltran Leva group and the Nasal Coronal organization, and they become their own cartain on the own. And and that's we're according to the d e A and and also Mexican authorities is expanding more rapidly in very short

period of time. And then unfortunately have been moving not only to draw trafficing, but there's many small groups that now are making their money. And the ole way of the mafia, the Cosa Nostra was doing their money in New York in the seventies or before, not that they were just extorting money out of local businesses, from a well established chain of stores to a little tagistan on the corner. There's also the trafficking of gasoline in Mexico

and and has been doubling. I mean anything that they once they get powerful, they began to move to other activities. For example, in the case of the anothetics, keep tapping wasn't a thing, let's say, before the ninety before the the nineties in Baha, California, they were kidnapping people who owned who used to be there their associates. Is the the where's my money kind of thing, you know, like you think about good fellows and and and they were

killing the chother there's everything among themselves. But later they began that they were were they were active with a lot of impunity. That they had a lot of cobs thirties on their payroll. So they began to move to other ways to earn money. And that's what we have seen now that the expanding this little as in Colombia used to go the baby cartels, we now have like a new chapters, smaller organization, not as powerful, but as

violent as as the original. I wanted to ask because I saw a lot of these like supposedly like they come up on TikTok or Facebook, right, these little announcements from the different cartels, and they tend to say, at least in the context of California, that like, we didn't want to disrupt ordinary people are good people, are good citizens about California, you know, but we need you to

stay in your homes this weekend. Write things like that, but it obviously does have an impact on the people who I just sort of doing whatever they do, just running their business. And so I was wondering sort of how people get through these difficult times Antijuan and California. Well, times are becoming more difficult because many people believe this because the widespread possibility of disseminating these messages now and you never know which ones are real, yes, and which

ones are not. Um. I mean, you guys have the same with the gangs. Remember, like don't bling your your head lies, because then the gang will start killing people left and right. Just take that on steroids. Now with social media and and now everybody with the phone that can get that messages. And that was that played a big role in what happened on writing here in Tijuana, they were recycling a video of three guys video taping themselves in from of the Attorney General's office in Tijuana.

Says so mantris here, we're gonna kill everybody, and just being very loud and and and and with a lot of insults and trying to scare the everybody the rights but everybody else. So during the hours of Friday, somebody began retreating that when was at least a year old of them claiming that that they were they were over here. Some people think this all this commotion happening, a lot of this cards burn, They didn't know exactly what was going on. Some people began to call in narco blocals

that just scare more people. And then you see this, so the level of anxiety increased significantly. You have to very careful and there's also you have to also keep in mind the political feuds that we are seeing. What you have seen between some people loyal to Trump and the rebulic comparty and some people that are against Trump.

Is the same here with Morena and non Morenna actors or people who likes the Morena which is the political party founded creative by the current president, are the ones who are against them and are very unhappy or angry with all these social policies. Um and and for example, we have here a television station run owned by the former governor Obaja California, who has is a very close friend of Andres Manuelope or the current president, who became

a very powerful figure and due to his proximity. Basically the current president revived this gentleman, which by the way lives in San Diego and Chula Vista in a big mansion because he exiled himself from about thirty years ago when he was associated with the last p r I government, the pre the political party run Mexican for the last

for seven years in a row. He was a very close associate with He could taka Laba Morta, which was the the current governor who didn't finish his his turn because the and then President of Mexico, Carlos Alina's accused him of corruption. So he just removed him and this guy Himmonia became a paria. So the p AN the new power basically mark him because also he had some previous suspicious relationships through the baseball team here in Tejuana

and from other endeavors. That makes them looks like very close to the Ariana Phelix d organization. The Ariana Phelix organization has been linked for many years with the last administration because they him that that last Prnstrass is the one who basically opened the door for the Ariana Felis to establish here in BA California. So this is what

we are seeing that that this messages. Well, now this guy who just left the office that the NIA just finished his governorship on December last year, so there's a new governor. But he also owns a television station, so he who is always criticizing the current governor, which is where the same political party it was uh using some of these messages with no proof or no validity or very suspicious and he was saying in their newscasts were saying,

well there's also this happening. There's the threads and they know that this government is corrupt and they were just alling too to the fire, and I mean as an analog, you know, the the real fight, but to the concern of the people. And in this term like saying that all we're gonna start a lackdown and we'll be talking to what's work for talking expression for tok to like that you cannot go out, Yes, martial martial will start at six. If we see you on the streets, we're

gonna killed you. There was a message that that television station was repeated once and again every day, so I was just added to So all these all these new novelty is sort of pick with a digital era are also creating bigger fires in the political spectrum and in a place where you never know what exactly the line is between the criminals and the government. Yeah, I think

it's a very good thing to hide. I actually this idea that there's like distinct blocks right like and that this supplies And I don't want to say like this is a Mexican thing, because it's not. This is a global thing, but like that there's a distinct plug between like crime and media that you consume and the government and the people that like working for the state, Like like the the idea that is a very separate and the world off doesn't it doesn't apply here, and I

don't think we should say elsewhere either. Yeah, it's it's a problem. He's becoming it's becoming worse and worse. No, because this factions, this other arena. I mean, we are seen it here also with the official statements from the authorities. I mean I was telling you earlier that that they the military had the secretary of the military says, well in the one that they didn't went against the civilians, and the governor also repeated that. So well here, fortunately

they didn't affect that the life of the people. Of course, of course they did. I mean, we were lucky they didn't kill anybody. But but no, they did. And so you have to also be finding that propaganda from the government against the propaganda from the criminal groups and the different political legal factions in other quote unquote non state actors, just to put it in in a different context. So it's

becoming very difficult. And yeah, I always say, excuse me if I readat this, but honestly believe, I mean, there's always great investigators detectives in Mexico willing to put their lives on the line for the good of people, but it's not always in the best conditions. And and this is like just the character of traffic. Uh, probably you were You guys were very young when traffic came across.

I mean a very popular movie which is about from the nineties and the end of the night is probably Yeah, where were the One of the three main characters is an honest Mexican caps I. Fortunately I met several of cases like that, but some of them have been killed due to their own estate, but also others that learned to survive and play along and try to do as much good as they can um within the circumstances they

are dealing with. Yeah, I think talking of good investigators who are trying to heal with difficult circumstances, maybe you should touch on the violence against suppress that we've seen in California and in Mexico as a whole. I mean, you come to talking about yes, yes, unfortunately, and this is terribly sad. A couple of hours ago, we just learned that the one of the reporters who was reported missing in the neighbors in state of Sonora was being

found dead. So we have another killing of a reporter. We also saw that the case of stare as they kill poor employees of four workers of a radio station, broadcaster, you know, affeelingly, randomly, apparently random, but then I mean we I mean depending on which told you take your

look too. Because there's like the official for the government, federal government from the CpG the Committee to Protect Journalists and or reports in other organizations, there is not that there's about ten or fifteen between I would say ten or fourteen or fifteen journalists or media workers skilled. So far this year we have two of those killings happening

here in Tijuana in in January. Um one of them them, I'm convinced by now that he was killed for the leader of drug trafficking cell was operating in the east side of the city, who wasn't pleased with some of the stories that one of the media outlets, his name is mar One of the media outists that Margharito was working too as a freelance swer was was pullishing very

revealing stories about the operation of the trafficer. So he ordered and pay for some other people to kill Margarito because he and my humble opinion, was the weakest link, because he was living on the same neighborhood. That these guys were operating working the night shift. That is very common that only a few of them are left to to do that. Chief that beat uh, he was easily identifiable, identifiable for the crooks because Margito will show up at

the crime scenes. And in many of these cases you have people who work for the same organization. Organization show enough to make sure that the guy was really killed and who showed up. And and I mean even when the killing is done, the criminals are still working the scene. And in some cases we met with these guys guys without knowing. I mean, these guys were were um even

willing to go to the funeral of Margarito. The only reason they were not there is because they when they approached this a lot of military presence on during the funeral. So I'm convinced that Margharito was killed due to his work as a as a photographer. UM. In the other case of my friend all coworker, Lord de Sandoval, I'm not sure what was the motive. In both cases are two people in jail, but the procedure is still on

the beginning stages. We are not proved, and the main thing is we don't know who order and pay for their killings. Well we know, or I think I have a big suspicion about which one is the guy who killed them in the case of Margharito, not in the case of lords and the authorities. I'm not confident enough that they're gonna be able to all the crimes in this particular cases. The other one, there's two cases, Inn

there's other cases and tom lipas uh. I guess by now we have to count at least two or three in Sonora with the sad news that we got today. So it's difficult. I mean not everybody is is risking their life when they're doing journalism in Mexico, but you never know when the danger will jump against you. I have a always tell this story about a photographer to

what was called to cover a traffic accident my minority. No, no, Well, the problem is that the the guy who was involved in the traffic and the accident was a drug blord, very a very well known operator, very dangerous operator, and he kept taking pictures thanks to some of the officers, firefighters and ladies who saw that he was being um treated not very naievely, and they lay it is that intervened, he was able to get away. He had to live town for a while. Uh, that's it. But that's the

kind of environment that we are dealing with. Is not that every story makes you put you in danger, but you never I mean, you can do a lot of you can be a reporter and not be on danger. Not you don't get into subjects that are tricky, you don't get too much in political corruption, and you don't do get too much on on drug trafficking, on care and homicides. You're pretty much gonna be able to do fine.

But but the promise sometimes if you're doing a story none related, there may be some link to put you in danger. And that's the situation. And unfortunately, the level of impunity and on crimes again journalists is even worse than the level of impunity of general civilians in Mexico. I will say that generalists about ninety personal ninety eight percent and nine for for case of journalist civilians. So our case is worse. The possibility of somebody will be

punished for killing you. It's it's very, very, very spanning. Yeah, I'm sorry, that's terrible. I don't know. It's again, like you said, it's not just a Mexican problem. You see in so many governments across the world where press our targeted specifically. Um. But yeah, and I appreciate your work even more knowing that the percentage of cases are just violence against you, so against you as a journalist is

so high. It's very sad and it's very disencouraging. But I always, I mean, my I have a familihood, is not copy because I'm still working on Friday. They called me the one. They want me to stay at the office. They don't want me to get out. Um, and I under tend. I understand, Pepper, it's one of the men. But also on the other hand, it's uh, you know, this is important information. Even when we are dealing with an avalanche of information that is not necessarily well treated.

We need to have good information so people will make good decisions. We are in a very small joint democracy. We just began to make in roads on electoral democracy. It's relatively recent. Began basically at the end of the nineties here in Baka, California, and has been moving to the two thousand's and now we are unfortunately back back in many ways. But but now you can rely now on who is running the elections together. That information was

very important. Now we need to be also very make a lot of big efforts to explain people that you can make Mexico is making progress even in these dire conditions, but you have to pay attention and also try to to learn where the information is coming from. That not all the media is the same that we have do. We come from a big tradition of government control media. Now media control also due trafficking organizations, and in some cases both are linked and and working to give your trouble.

And also there's a lot of press that has chosen to just go with the flock and just live out of propaganda. And sometimes they do good things, like they go and give boys to the people and the local community, so the the water is established or there's more um, there's no more need for to fix a park or to public transportation, and they do do good. This is important.

All the the job of the reporters is good, but in the in the bigger dimension of the bigger problems, they tend to be on the side of the government. Because the government found this way to give you a lot of public advertisement and to have you under their control.

And many reporters want to be good journalism with journalists, but their editors of the owners of the companies are not willing to rouse that easy way to get a lot of money from the government and more easily than to start putting themselves on the risk, which implies when you do heavially digging or criticizing the powers of Yeah, how how would someone know that they're getting accurate information? In that case? This applies to every country in the world.

You have to really be conscious and like seek out particular sources. But like in this case, what do you recommend for people? I mean, it's difficult. You're right, this is the simple everywhere. But I guess the same recipe works here. I mean, just double chair, double check their sources. Try to compare several UM media outlets and to see where it's reporting UM, whether each of them is reporting UM the same way that you find the way they are leaning in the US is the what you find here.

But the problem is the established media, the how do you call it? Um? The traditional media is becoming less relevant because most of the main good journalism is done by small revolves soup. They began their own entities, their own platforms. I mean, some cases there's good reporters working for good media outlets. Normally those are not local. I mean when you see the big media companies, don't they don't have which some exceptional, but they don't have any

people doing urnalizing at the local level. You will find good local journalism with these renegades or rebels that have people who have been fired from the big, larger organization, and you have to be looking for those options. I mean that doesn't mean that it's a guarantee that they're gonna gonna be independent completely. You also learn how to read them. For example, there's a good case of two reporters.

We just where they resigned or were fired, we don't know exactly, but they from a well prestigious publication locally, they began their own operation. They have they are good, proven, proven as a reporters. You know what I'm trying to say that they have a reporter. Yeah, yeah, I thought that was what it was. I was just like, I don't actually don't know, I don't know phrases either. Yeah.

They made a name for from themselves doing good journalism with other publications, began their own media outlet, and some people was complaining that they were too close to some uh state agency with the new government. And they have great information. They do good, good um reporting, but you have to look curve carefully and which which type and where are they leaning to. So I always read them. I just take it with a grain nut sal that you will see say in English, to try to balance

my intake of information from different sources. It's difficult to tell the people because they are not general The general public is not as involved or interested in media on and on the newspaper or on the news. We are because we live out of it. But people is doing their life and making the the will to move around, not for all of us in different France as a doctor, as a housewife, as a teacher, and they don't have enough time to then to analyze media the way we do.

So we I think we need to do a little bit of that. Try to tell them this is for this reason we believe this media outlet is living in this direction, this is subsidized or is getting We do that this is getting this amount of money from the government and not this amount of money from the government, that that will give you a hand to take it and to see who are they dealing with I mean there's guys who have been working for the governen now are back to reports. I mean therese cases like that

in the US. Stephanopolis used to work for the for the one of the presidents on the guy for of Harball from MSNBC used to work for Nixon. I mean, we see this, but in this environment it is more difficult to to live out those connections. And it's always tricky to be moving from government jobs to journalism jobs because it's not I mean you have to so. I mean when in my perspective I never worked for for the government, I hope I would never have to do that.

I respect the ones they do, but you as we need to be more transparent, transparent in that sense to be able to be fair with the people. Yeah, that

makes sense. There's this interesting development in Mexico that I've seen in some areas, like if I want to learn about like what's happening in the yucky pueblos in Sonora or in chapters, like these people who will just be like citizen reporters on Facebook, doing very local reporting that it seems to get really popular, but that they will sort of blow up really quickly doing this like Facebook

only reporting. It's really interesting because there's a big need of information and they know many people in Mexico have learned to be distrustful of the quote unquote legacy media. The expression I was looking for legacy media, the big companies, um and And the problem is there's this risk that many of those media, you media outlets, which is basically

Facebook accounts or TikTok accounts. Now, uh, the people doesn't know how to deal with I mean, they they are, they have good intentions, but they don't really know how journalists should work. And in some cases they think, like some for example, that they can take money for different actors and that will help them to grow and and I guess you can, but but you have to be very careful. And this has been a big problem that I'll try to emphasize every time I talk about our situation.

For many years, the government was too close or their reporters were too close to the government. The government will make easy with a lot of privileges for the reporters, so they learned to do this to work in this scenario. So if I was close to the government, they will expect it's a lot of things for me, so to speak. I can get good money. I can get probably a license to for a bar way weaker than somebody who

is not doesn't have that access to the government. I can probably get like um taxi licenses for example, because I'm a reporter. Because I'm I'm close, I can get close to the movies and checkers and the political arena. No but you. So they did that, and when the drop trafficking with the narcos became another power, many many

reporters began to see it in the same way. So they were closely with the government was powered, and then we're coursing with the businessmen, and they were closely with the with the unions because they were giving them handouts or treat them them prevalently, or they were able to do some traffic of influence who will give them some benefits.

When the narcos became a problem regional power on their own, some of the reporters didn't see the different or gain too close to that power, and that has put a lot of the reporters in danger. I think the reporters are learning a little bit more to stay away from those But there's also with the abandment of social media, many people who are really crooked, or that they were not very interested in doing things ethically from the beginning.

That now see that with a Facebook account, with a TikTok account or Instagram or any other platform, you can pass by a reporter. So there's this need of information, but also it is filled with um with good and bad people, as in any other cases I always talk. I mean, this is the all analogy of a gun is the gang bad or good? All depends on the circumstances you are using it. No, yeah, yeah, I'm not not a gang guy. But I don't want to get

into your your your political discourse about your First Amendment. That. Yeah, that's a whole another episode. Need. Yeah, that's line if you said, sure, did you have anything else? No, that was awesome, Thank you so much for all the information. Yeah, and talking of reliable media, where can people find you online? Where can they find your work? Where can they find your social media? The main thing is Tijuana Press dot com. That's back room is just an online needed media outlet.

Is not a newspaper. It's just when we we have been changing our way of work because we began as a daily we're no longer to do that because we don't have enough resources for that, but also there's plenty of daily media outlets, digital media outlets for the daily stories. We want to do a little bit more in there, more investigative, more give you context of what is going on. We we are in Spanish, but you can follow us

on Twitter on add Tijuana Press. Because we tried to with our poor English, try to do some on tweets on English with the help of Google Translator or other Hell, guys who other call that will correct or spelling. But that's the main way to get ahold of us. Well, I think you're English is great. Uh, you talked to us for an hour and I understood everything. Um. But yeah, but thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. Yeah,

thank you, sante, No, thank you guys. You always help us to spread the world and to be able to put ourselves to be judged by the public. This is what it's more important for us. But we do invest in algorithms from any social platform because we believe and and that the people will be willing to find us if they are really interested, and you guys help us about in that sense. Yeah, thank yeah, thank you so much giving us some of your time. We really appreciate it.

Thank you. We'll be here if you would be, it would be a big help. Thank you, Thank you. So welcome to it could happen here a podcast about things falling apart and how to put them back together again. Now, a thing that has fallen apart that we have talked about at length before is the protection of the right to abortions, previously enshrined in Roe v. Wade and no longer enshrined in that. And we've come at this from a number of angles, but one angle that we've neglected

so far is is the labor angle. Um. And Okay, so for reproductive autonomy to exist, right, you need healthcare, and healthcare, especially under capitalism, requires labor. And and that labor isn't done by you know, abstract organizations. It's done by workers who are facing not only sort of the mall of the death of row, but the in transient

and often the belligerency of the room bosses. And here to talk with us about that is Crystal Grabowski and Elizabeth Vella Nuevo from the wonderfully named UEI Local six nine six UM, and I'm gonna I'm going to read a pseudo legal disclaimer here, which is that they are not representing Planned parent who they do work at Planned Parenthood. They are not representing planned parenthood. They're they're representing themselves as individuals and our local union, yes, proud members of

Local six nine, six impeccably named union, purposefully named right. Well, they were like, you have to choose a a number that starts with six, and then we just looked at each other and we had that moment where it's like, yes, and then we can add another one and it'll be a good time, fun little threesome. He'll be safe. That's good.

So sorry, round one of pro union propaganda joining you did and YouTube can be in in Union Local sixty nine or what if they told you the number could start with four, like you know, yeah, boom, there's just so many options. I'm sure there's other fun numbers that besides those, but you have the entire world in front of you. Yeah, we could have done six, you could do like boom. Can you imagine if we did six six? We could now we had that choice, and we went

with six nine six. Sexual Health Organization is to prove that workers will always make the right decisions. This is the power of the union. We can evaluate these decisions when when it's important and do the right thing. So yeah, thank thank you, thank you to you so much for for coming on the show. Thank you for having us. We're both super excited. Yeah, thanks for tining us a slowly abortion workers. So I'm gonna I'm gonna dispute heavily with the term slowly like youall are the people who

make all of this possible. Bull So yeah. Yeah. And and now now having said all of this, I'm about I'm going to ask you a very depression question, which we have. We've asked a lot of the people who've talked about abortion access, uh like who work in abortion access stuff this question, but I think you two had a very different experience of it. Um. What was it like on the day when Roe died? Do you want

to go first, Crystal? Um? Yeah. I've talked about this a lot because I'm getting asked a lot, and it's I'm happy to talk about it, um, which is I'm actually like, it's been hard to listen to other people talk about it because then I start getting in my fields. But like when I'm talking about and I'm kind of like just processing and it's probably healthy for me, somebody would say, but it was incredibly traumatic, and it's been incredibly traumatic, um since the fall of Ruby Wade and

the Dobs decision. And I'm saying this, well, like knowing that we all knew it was coming, it was it was a given and it wasn't surprising. And there's just something about knowing that it's been coming for months and years that like just it just did nothing to actually inform you, like what would it be like? Um, But it was like a it was like a tidal wave crashing and just like sweeping you away. And we're still

swept away. Um. The only language that I can find that's appropriate is like natural disaster language, and I just I keep repeating it and saying, like it's like a hurricane, It's like a tidal wave. But that is the those are the words that are most fitting to me, like emotionally and just in terms of like the violence and the that is that you that people are experiencing, um, and just the the emotional and mental and bodily harm

is equitable to a natural disaster. Yeah. And I think during one of our debriefs, during a particularly difficult all day, this was pretty um row. We were talking about how sometimes it's really hard for us when we can see these things coming and yet there's nothing we can really

do about it. And I know that we talked about how it felt like we were just tied to a train track, watching and waiting for that train to just come and hit us, and then when it did, it was just it just knocked I think the wind out of all of us. Um, I think we all cried for sure, that we all cried, and um, and I'm not even like, I don't know, like I feel like I am. I'm emotional and I am a crier, but a whole I didn't think that I would sob immediately

the second I saw the news. And then I always knew we were going to get a lot more calls because um, Elizabeth and I also answered phones in the abortion clinic, and I was like, Okay, we're gonna get way more calls. But like, you don't know what that feels like or looks like. Her sounds like, like, what is it I feel like to have a hundred people calling you pretty much at the same time? What does

that look like? Now? I know, and it's traumatic and it's awful, and um, it's a natural disaster, but it's a man made disaster. Actually it's not a natural disaster. We've there are people who have inflicted this upon us, um, and now we know what it feels like, and it's sucking awful. I should have asked if I was allowed to swear. Oh yeah, I swear all the time, okay, because like I've been on podcast before where they were like, oh,

we gotta edit that out, which, well, it's a fucking nightmare. Yeah, we work in healthcare. I think we swear more than the average lay man because they keep saying something out. Yeah, there's so much more to say, like yeah, please, I don't even know where to go from there. It's just yeah, it's like a never ending nightmare because like the calls started and then it's just like just just person after

person after person. They driving driving two hours, three hours, four hours, five hours, coming from states that are like three states away, coming from like states in the South, people taking planes and um, people staying in hotels and we've had people pay like hundreds of dollars for maneuver eshm and um. And then just like bringing in the labor angle to as like unionized abortion workers who you know, we have been vocal and we've been rallying and making

our demands like publicly known. But we are doing this while under staffed, like skeletal crew staffing. We didn't have enough staff before row fell and the jobs decision, and now we just it's bare bones and it's like we are So we're taking on this title wave, this like man made title wave, while just giving every last ounce of our energy. Yeah. Um, and do multiple roles at once. Yeah. I don't know if you are able to tell from the fact that Crystal and I both work directly in

the clinic, but we also answer calls. Um. When we signed up for our job, Um, we knew that we would be doing multiple things around the clinic, and it's just it's funny, um to not really know what that means until you start doing it. So one day you'll be holding a patient's hand while they're having this procedure done, like giving them a little baggy in case they feel sick. Um,

you'll be talking to them on the phone. So some there are days where, um, I will meet people who I've spoken to on the phone when they called took their appointment, and it just hits me like a tidal wave. Because I'm like, that's the person, Like, that's this person specifically, I remember because I remember hearing the sound of their voice, and every single time they call in they are sobbing.

This is a horrifying moment for them. This is a moment where they feel like trapped, They feel like they can't share with their family, with their friends. Um, depending on what state they're from and the legalities of that state. They are even afraid to make these phone calls. Like some of the first things that patients say to us when they call it is in my is this okay? Like? Am I allowed to call you? Um? Amula to talk to you? Of my allowed to book an appointment? Um?

What's going to happen next for me? Appointment? Yeah? Because we're not lawyers, because we everything is so fluid right now, we don't have answers to give them. Um, we can just say, well, you're coming to Pennsylvania and it's stillegal in Pennsylvania, so um. And then just to like paint the picture a little more too about like both the skeletal staffing and the emotional turnoil and the emotional weight

of it. Um. So that Dobb's decision happened on June, which was a Friday, and we're in Pennsylvania, and that evening of the evening of June, a trigger man went into effect in in Ohio. It was a it's a fetal heartbeat bill, which is a deceptive language because it's not actually a heartbeat but um, but it's a it's technically a fetal heartbeat bill. And so people after six weeks um could no longer access abortion services or once any sort of like electrical impulse was detected and everyone

had their appointments canceled. So we were actually at a protest, like the staff was like at a protest that evening, um with our with our doctors, our abortion providing doctors, and the news came out like yeah, shout out to them, we love them, um, and we got the news that Ohio had just did this, and we were just like, oh my god, tomorrow because we knew the second our call center and our phone lines opened, everyone whose appointment

was canceled is going to be calling us. And then we pull up the staff schedule and we're like standing in the middle of the street at a protest. We pull up the staff schedule and we're like, oh my god, there is one person schedule to answer phones right now, and it is an older woman who's been doing this since like the seventies or eighties, and it's like we cannot like and we were like all as a union, like, um, we turn to each other and we're like, oh my god,

this is the situation. We cannot leave her alone. Um, we've already worked our five days, we already worked our already five hours, but we are going to call ourselves into work. And like we just we were like we've notified our managers, like we're gonna come into work and we're gonna help too, answer the phones for these canceled Ohio patients. Like that was a decision that we made to work those extra that that extra time on our

weekend off because it was a Saturday. But this ties into what Elizabeth was saying, where, Um, when you hear the person on the phone and then they come to you, and like it's very emotional because like you're doing your best as a health care worker to get them the health service that you have been trained to provide and that you know is very important. So knowing that we were understaffed, UM, knowing that we're not making that much money, and then just being like I have to go in

and be there. I can't leave my coworker alone because I love my coworker and we can't. And like, somebody has to be there for these these patients when they're calling. And if it's not going to be the employer and the bosses, then it's going to be you. And then and then we we all just we did that, and then um there was another clinic day. We a lot of us arranged to come in for an extra work day because we were like, we have we have to be there for these patients. Um, so we're really giving

all of our energy and it's exhausting and traumatizing. I can't I feel like I can't say that enough. But and we we need more staff, we need better wages, we need better working conditions because it's so it's like at the end of some of these days, it's like, how am I going to keep doing this? My body hurts, my brain hurts. I started having like issues with my memory where like I couldn't remember anything because like brain

just gave up on retaining information. And I'm like, I think this is like a trauma response, like yeah, I'm overwhelmed system shock. I think this is one of the things you get with with working for NGOs, which is that like we're doing something like this is like there is work that needs to be done, but you know, the employers not giving you the resources that is necessary

to do it right. You have one person on a call line like the day after a fetal heartbeat bill goes goes into effect, and and it's I don't know, it seems like one of the one of the things that's that that these NGOs do is they were you know, they make they make a mistake or they do something deliberately because they don't want to pay people and then they don't want to pay another more people, and they make you go deal with it because you know it has to get done because these people need you, and

that nobody has to do it. Yeah, and that's so cruce. It's disgusting. So for me, I like to equate it as kind of like being emotionally gaslight because the whole point of healthcare, and I've said this to other people in different health care roles that I've worked before, because as we do, health care is chronically understaffed, Like there

are so many like nursing shortages, and things. UM. Is that healthcare is designed to draw people who want to help to have these like very strong moral and emotional beliefs um. And we are paid to care like it is our job to care UM. And that is how they can get all of these things out of us. Is because it's very easy to feel emotionally manipulated when somebody's like, well, somebody has to be there for this patient, this person UM, this like thing that can't wait um.

And so a lot of us UM. Even like I said before, I worked here. At like different positions that I've held, I've been like, I will take an extra shift because somebody has to do it. And I love my job so much. I love working in healthcare. It's something I've been very passionate about since I was a small child. UM. So I for years would burn myself out and be like, I'll take the extra shift at a different position. UM. When I used to work at

a care UM. I worked at an intermediate care facility for adults with intellectual physical disabilities UM for a couple of years, and I remember routinely working sixteen hour shifts like day in and day out. I think there was like six seven days a week of just doubles where I would work like sixteen hour shifts. I don't think I like slept or aid or did anything UM. And then at one point I was so burnt out that

I just couldn't do it anymore. And I started to get frustrated with the people that I worked with and like the patients that I cared about. And this one particular day, I like, I noticed myself getting incredibly annoyed with everything that was like happening, like sounds, patients like just being themselves, Like I didn't, you know, take it out on anything or anyone. I just noticed myself getting like slightly more irritated. And then I was like, this

is not sustainable. I can't keep doing this UM. And I compared this recent change posted the jobs decision to what it was like when I also used to work

for distributing medical equipment to hospices UM. It felt like every single moment was an emergency that I just did not have the resources to be able to UM help with because is on one end of the line, you have somebody that is having this emergency, and then on the other end of the line, there's another person pulling you because they're also having an emergency, and so you have to kind of weigh which one of these patients like needs you the most right now, and which one

of those can you reasonably help. It's like that psychology psychology puzzle where they're like, um, if you move the thing on the try, yeah, the trolley problem where like one of these people will die or seven people will die, and you have to decide which one of those you're gonna pull. Yeah, there's only so much that we can give as healthcare workers, as abortion workers, as reproductive health workers. Um,

there's only so many hours in a day. And as much as we want to keep giving for us to keep poor hanging out of an empty cup, it's just not sustainable for ourselves. Like I know, many of us have lost sleep, many of us have stopped like being able to focus on anything outside of work, because as soon as like you turn on the news or you open your phone or you like open up Twitter, there's more and more and more information because everything is consistently

changing all of the time. And like, um, Western Virginia is currently having like there, Um, yeah, so that's new. And we had a couple of calls come in from um, you know, we had Kentucky. Yeah, so that was new. Um. And we're just starting to like really have a good pattern of resources for patients coming in from like Ohio. Um,

and now we're like, okay, well what about Kentucky. So we just like we feel like there's just one like hole in the dam that we put our finger on and then another one shows up that at some point we just have to know that we've done our best. Um, and then it's okay to take a second to rest um and do you know, go home and maybe like watch TV or listen to a podcast. Yeah not about abortion. Yeah, forget about abortion for two seconds, and because we will

inevitably have to do it again tomorrow. This reminds me a lot of Um, I did an interview like I don't actually it will be a couple of weeks, I guess by when this comes out. With some organizers who were like trying to do like relief and aid for

the migrants. You're getting bus to d C from Texas, I think you talk to and it was like they were talking about exactly the same thing where it's like we have to do this, we have to do this because otherwise no one's gonna help these people, but like at a certain point it's like everyone has COVID, like we just can't and it I don't know, it's I think it's especially frustrating that this is happening because like those people were just like they have no resources, right,

It's just a bunch of people who could drink virtually a thing. But like this is planned parenthood, Like they have resources and they're not. They're not doing this, and they're they're doing this. I talked to a nurse who's a friend of mine a long time ago on this show, and he talked, you know, he was in nurstring COVID. He's gotten COVID twice I think, and like, you know, he was talking about how like yeah, he he said,

to be like thing I've always remember. It was like I've seen people die because I've seen people die because of staffing decisions. Yeah, and it's like it's this, it's this moral blackmail thing where it's like, in order to expect this thing needs to be done, we're not going to actually supervide you with enough resources to do it, and we're going to make you responsible for the consequences of our actions. And yeah, it's it's grotesque. Yeah, and then that um, really it's just kind of like part

of the trauma for the workers. And I'm not honest to the patients for everyone in our communities because this literally everyone is um just like turning. Like we do turn people away because pregnancy is a time sensitive issue and you know, you have to get in in a certain number of weeks in order to get you know, the type of procedure that you want in order to

get a procedure at all. And these are people that are often parents, the majority of people who have abortions or parents, um, and they have children, and they have jobs or they don't have like p t O and they live four hours away. So it's like how am I going to get to this appointment? So there's so

many people that we have to refer. So it's it's so much on your soul to be on the phones and you speak to mother after mother, like a single mother or somebody who lost a partner or they are you know, um, they got evicted, and you're referring them to Detroit, which is an also so four or five hours away, and just to refer people to say I can't help you, try calling this place and to do that like multiple times in a row every day, and

then you're like you're working seven hour days. It is really soul crushing because it feels like and like you tell yourself, like it's my you know, we don't have the resources, we don't have the staff, we weren't prepared for this crisis. It's not on me, but it's very hard not to feel awful when you are turning people away because you don't I don't know any I've probably turned like probably over a hundred people away on the phones and told them who to call. I don't know

if they reach those places. I don't know if they called those places. For all I know, they continue to hire risk pregnancy, and they might suffer health consequences or things that debilitate them for the rest of their life, things that make the children's lives worse. And I have no way of knowing. So it's just very traumatic to constantly be hanging up on the phone with people and just like sending them into like just a desert. I think the hardest part two is that these phone calls

aren't like two seconds long. They're not two minutes. When we tell when we answer the phones. Abortion appointments take about fifteen to twenty minutes to schedule, so this is a half an hour that you are getting to know an individual. A person, they tell you everything about their lives. They tell you exactly what they're feeling, what they're afraid of, what they're going through with their families like um, what

their financial situation is like. And then at the end when you tell them or at the beginning, which I do often just to let them know what they're getting themselves into. When you tell them that you're booking like three weeks out, four weeks out, you can just hear it in their voice that they are so scared and so desperate and there's nothing you can do about it because there's just not enough of us. There's not enough days, there's not enough hours in the day to see all

of these patients. There is so much red tape that these patients have to go through to even get to this appointment. There's a twenty four our phone consent and the State of Pennsylvania UM. If they miss that, they can't be seen. And these are often like um depending on the time of the phone call. Some people work multiple jobs. They're like sleep they can't make the phone call.

They're sick, they're sick, they don't have working cell phones, or they're in a yeah, there in a situation where they're like have intimate partner violence, so they can't be on the phone for that long without risking their personal safety. And it's just really traumatizing. And I know that it's really common on the left and with like pro abortion people to say like, you can't stop abortion, you can

only start save abortion. And I totally support the sentiment behind that, because people are going to get abortions no matter what. But people also need to think about the people who give up, because I have when I have been on the phone with someone and heard them give up. Yeah, and it's it's it's it's traumatizing because like, you know that you gave them the information that broke them where

they were. Just like when I'm like, Okay, you have to wait four weeks, you have to drive four hours, you have to do this, you have to pay this, you have to do that, and then just for them to say, I'm sorry, I don't want to waste your time anymore. I just can't do this much right now.

It's just too much. And just to hear they're just resignation because you know, I think I feel like, you know, working in jobs, you might have heard people just like reach that moment where they hit their point, um, whatever their breaking point might be, whatever the context is, whatever the topic is. But like when it's your life and it's your health and it's your family and they're just like, this is my breaking point and witnessing and that that

does happen. And it's a tragedy every time that somebody abandons what they really want and their health and their well being and um, and it does happen. And that's

why this is a tragedy that needs to stop. And I don't know when it's going to stop, because it just kind of seems like it's going to keep happening and keep going and going and going, in which case the trauma is going to like move, Like right now, we're like bearing the frunt of it, but it's gonna like radiate from us in our patients and we're going to see the ripple effects across the whole generational trauma

that's going to continue for multiple decades. Yeah, And it's I mean, just on a basic level, it's not fair that even you have to deal with this like this, This shouldn't be happening at all like that, And it's it's that, it's that like all of the evil of the American settler state falling on like a bunch of people who have nothing and then a bunch of workers who are expected to show up and have to deal with all of their all of their trauma to every

day and it's just like a trauma to loser. Yeah, and it's like flags and but and then we had a union rally recently and uh, we were very open and talking about how a lot of us work two jobs and and we have staff members who donate plasma, so it's like we're doing this on top of a second job, and donating are like bodily fluids. I spoke at this rally and I was like, we're literally giving our flesh, blood and tears to this whole thing. Um because it's just we love it. We love all of

our patients, We care about the work. We really want to make sure that our patients are going to be okay. And I think that's why we do it, and also how we can justify feeling this way day day in and day out. I wanna I think moved from this to talking about the contract negotiation process, because like, okay, it is not okay for anyone to have like a fourteen month long contract negotiation process. It's especially not okay

for you to have to do this. So yeah, can we can we talk about what Plant like what Plant parents has been doing and would be better at answering this because she's on our bargaining committee. I'm on the bargaining team, Yam. I've been doing this for fourteen months and like just oh god, I'm so sick of these meetings. I'm so sick of them, sick of the talking to their lawyer. Um, it's been long. They've been just um

really just dragging themselves. It's like carrying a dead body, just like like it's like come on, come on, are you? Are you okay? We're gonna We're gonna get there, you know, like I'm We're just like dragging them, and they are afraid of everything. Everything is we gotta see, we gotta check, we gotta we gotta look into it, and then you never hear back, or maybe you hear back like three

months four months later. Um, they constantly want to bring in a mediator, constantly and it's like there's nothing to mediate, like what are we going to immediate? You telling us that you gotta back to us, like what's there to mediate there? Um, And they're like it will move it along. And it's like yes, because they're doing the job for you. We want you to do it. We want you to have answers, you to figure it out. You're the bosses,

you make the money, you're one running the organization. Um. Sorry, I start getting salty. The bargaining team has has um. Being on the bargaining team has really nurtured my rage. Um. It's been very exhausting. And I know we're going to win a good contract because we are badasses and I think we're really strong union and really strong team. Um, and we need we need a livable wage because we're

we're getting pommelled. So UM, it's been really frustrating. I guess it's like in short, it's really drawn out, frustrating, disrespectful. I feel like my time has been disrespected. You know, I turn up every day, um for for my employer in the clinic. I'm an excellent worker and uh and they just waste like two three hours of my evening constantly. I could have been on my porch drinking tea or something,

I don't know, something relaxing. Yeah, And I guess like any other person, like every every day that they don't like sign a contract is another day they get to get away with not paying you, not bringing more staff. And it's and they're constantly trying to get delay contract negotiations to where they're like, oh, if you do this, we can we'll give you a couple of pennies and then we won't make any you won't be able to

make any economic changes until the next fiscal year. And it's like, do you think I want to wait till next July? I have a life plans. Yeah, I mean I think we've talked about on the show before that like one of the one of the most common ways that one of the most common ways that unions fall apart, and one of the things that corporations do and n g O s due to crush them is by trying

to make sure that the first contract fails. And yeah, it's a union busting thing, and it's for tesque especially that it's like okay, like with capitalist firms, like yeah, you expect them to be union busting, right, Like that that's their job. Their job is to ruthlessly special lab but it's like this is an NGO, Like their job is to provide healthcare for people. They're supposed to be oppressive organization. They're still doing this and it's I don't know,

it seems just really grim. Um it is grim and it doesn't give a lot of hope too, I think just everyone living in this in this country, because it's like, okay, so there's been a a uh, I was gonna say attack, but like attack doesn't feel appropriate. Like they have gutted abortion access, hurting everybody, UM, causing like violence to people,

and who do you look to? So you would think that you would look to these progressive abortion related organizations like Planned Parenthood, National Abortion Federation, UM, narrow, but all of them have nothing to give and nothing. They're they're you. You only hear bad news. You hear them shutting down, you hear them union busting, you hear them UM requiring ridiculous regulations that aren't even necessary, and it's it's just

there's no they don't do anything to inspire hope. So it's like, well you need you know, like UM, prison culture and Mary Mikaba says like, you know, hope as a discipline, So I feel like a lot of us are always looking to like a place to exercise our hope, and you're you're not going to get that here with

with some of these organizations. I think you are going to get it in I think the rebro unions, because I think there's a lot of us and I think there were I think that we are working our little hearts out, and I think you're also going to get it with some of these other organizations like the abortion like abortion funds and some of the practical support organizations that are really like getting on the level of patients who are patients for former patients and are like, we're

going to get people abortions. I think that's where hope is right now. Um, but not with our employer. Yeah, I want to say, I guess there's some of your things I wanted to ask about was sort of on

a macro level. I mean, just everyone we've talked to has talked about how like the ability to get an abortion is based on like a pretty small a number of people who are like some you know, people who are abortion who are escorts, who are who are like a lot of time volunteers, or it's people who are like you two, who are being like horrifically underpaid to

you the actual work of this. And I was wondering what you two think that, like the like the way this like I don't know, I guess, like the way everyone has sort of just run ragged even keeping the system. How it was like what role that played on a sort of macro level in terms of why ROW was like destroyed in the first place, and what that's done to the sort of the broader movement. I mean, no, they didn't do anything to prevent it. Yeah, Like it's just what have we seen? What show of force or

strength or commitment to abortion access have we seen in ever? Honestly, like I can't even think other than like some loss or some legal wins we've celebrated, Like I do remember whole woman's health be Hellerstead, Um, what was that was like a win and we were excited and we were like, this is good news, and that's honestly the last and now again that was just a court decision, so it

was like not in our hands really anyways. So I just either so little, there's so little to work with, and so a little look at outside of I think just some really excellent organizing from workers and practical support groups. And I really think that our community has been fabulous this last whole like month. Be All of the support that we've gotten, UM for our like personal morale has been through like friends or local businesses or like people who know people who um like are there to offer

us like an ear, a hand, a cup of coffee. Um. Some of our doctors bring in bagels. Uh, this is like from their own pockets. Um, we'll bring in bagels. We've had like people donate and organized to bring in like coffee and stuff. UM. I know that Crystal was receiving a lot of donations herself, UM that we all use to buy ourselves, like food, drinks, stuff for people are just like sending me money for them. Yeah, and I thought that was really great. But I also noticed

that it came from outside sources and not from internal sources. UM. These are all other people outside in our community who understand and value the work with that we're doing, and like actively listen for what we need and what we're asking for. Um. And I think that there's a lot to be said about that. Yeah, Honestly, the most hope, and the most support has come from just like regular people. You don't really see it from anyone with anything any actual money or power. And on that note, this has

been Naked Happen Here. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram That Happen Here pod, and you can find Crystal and Elizabeth Union at PPWP Union on Twitter or for part two of this interview and until then, goodbye. Welcome to Dick It Happened Here, a podcast about n g O is portraying the working class and casting reproductive autonomy to the wolves. I'm your host, Christopher Wong, and this is part two of my interview with Crystal and Elizabeth from UEI Local six nine six. They are once

again representing only themselves in the union and not planned parenthood. Yes, so let's get back to the interview. Okay, should should I? Should I do a incredibly long and drawn out metaphor about migrant workers in China? Go for it? Yeah? Okay, So I'm gonna, I'm gonn I'm gonna, I'm gonna do a man for it. Okay. So alright, alright, So one of one of the sort of engines of Chinese economic growth for a long time is that China's economy is built on migrant labor. There are I think it's like

two fifty million migrant workers. It's like like if you put them together as a country. I think when I got into ninety, if you put together as a country, would be like the fourth largest country in the world.

And this was able to happen, you know, and like the sort of like the secret of the Chinese miracle is that it was a bunch of workers who were exploited horribly and they also had a lot A lot of these workers are coming from the countryside, and there's still sort of like kinds of forms of like communal landownership that are left over from the socialist period there.

And so what happens is you have these sort of like I don't know, like kind of socialist collective air like collective land ownership stuff that's like basically subsidizing these workers so that they can move into the cities. And this means that their bosses have to pay like that their their bosses can pay them less because part of their income and part of their support network is coming from something that's outside of the outside of the such

a system. And that's what this reminds me of where it's like this stuff is happening because of this incredible community mobilization and like that's where the support is coming from.

But that also means that like the actual like the organizations who are getting the most money and the most resources and who are like you know, who are your bosses, don't have to do that because it's it's you know, And this is the same thing with your labor to where it's it's you have these these like there's this way in which solidarity is mobilized as a way to sort of like stop gap the fact that these groups don't want to pay people and don't want to give

people the resources that are necessary. And so because it has to get done, people will, like people will do it, and people will people will donate stuff, people will help support, people will do this work. But the thing that it winds up doing is that these people are never actually

forced to see the full consequences of their actions. They never never forced to like actually see what what the staff and decisions like does what what the fact that they don't pay you anything like actually does they don't They never have to face it because people are like desperately trying to patch the boat together so it doesn't sink. Yeah, I've been thinking a lot, like what would it be like if you know, one of our higher up managers turned away all of these patients and it was them, Yeah,

what if they knew what it was like? I remember picking up the phone a couple of weeks ago, and the only thing that I heard when I picked up that phone was a blood curdling scream, like this was like a scream out of a horror movie. And then there were two thoughts and then dead side, And I don't know what happened to that person. I don't know if they were able to call back. I didn't call back because if that person is in danger right now,

I'm not going to subject them to any more danger. Um. There's a reason that when we dial out it's the restricted or block numbers, But it's moments like that that stick with you. And the fact that we're having more and more of these moments where like every other call is not like exactly to that level, but like emotionally

still sticks with you. And it's just for some additional um, just like to kind of like build out this kind of like misogynistic context that we're working in it's actually super common to get people calling in for abortion services,

like in the middle of a fight with their partner. Um. I have had had like men like actively obstructing the caller and you know, I'm trying to schedule them, and they'll have me on speaker phone and everything and you were training me to we and I was like, are you able to get to like another place because I can't hear you over him and you know, and he's like, I'm not doing anything, and I'm like I just need to be able to hear you, and like, um, yeah,

So you do you get that? Because that's you know, because there's people want abortions for every reason under this sun, and it's totally fine. Um, people get abortions for lots of different reasons, but a very common reason is because the partner sucks and he's a piece of ship. He was abusive and they got to get away from him. And that's unfortunately common. And we're on the phone getting that. Sometimes we get to meet them in real life too,

and that's always super fun. I always say that, I say to patients constantly that boyfriends either go only go one of two ways when we meet them in our clinic. They're either wonderful and fantastic and very supportive, um or they're just the worst. And I've had patients boyfriends who literally, while this person is mid procedure will be like, you're being dramatic and you need to stop. And they'll take a phone call yeah or something. Let's be playing games

on their phone and they won't look at anybody. Um or they'll actively leave their partner there. And these are people that like were their rides. Oh yeah, we've had people get abandoned. Yeah. Yeah, they'll just be like I'm done, I'm bored, and then they'll just leave, and it's just so frustrating. A lot to deal with. We have a

lot to deal with the staff. And I always tell people because I trained um staff at the clinic, and I'm always like, we see everything here and when I say I say that I need it, we see literally everything like you just And I'm sure there are other similar health provisions like health services that it's kind of similar.

We just kind of see everything, um but yeah, we we literally see everything because people when people come in for an abortion appointment, UM, Like, we don't just talk about the procedure, you know, we do birth control counseling, STD screening, UM, we provide resources for housing, legal support, UM, therapy, finding therapists, and we just we we do so much

because we're providing a comprehensive health care service. And again, like something that we tell patients is that they can expect to be here for like four hours, six or five hours. Yeah, it depends on the individual patients or individual needs UM and what services we can provide for them. And sometimes patients need a lot of TLC and we're

not going to rush that. UM. They're going to get the services that they need and they want, and we're going to do it on their time because they're very but they're very fragile and that's not the time to run times through. They're not always so sometimes they're fragile, and like sometimes they're like let's get this done, you know, I just I just want to the whole range of we get. We get. Yeah, but sometimes they're very fragile. Yeah.

We have had some really confident patients that I really like talking to though that they're very yeah, like ready to get it over with and are like thanks for being here, and they just make my day. I love it when we're like, oh, how because we have to you know, we have to do like make sure that they're not being coerced in everything. And it's like, so, you know, how are you feeling about everything? And they're like, I feel great, I can't wait to not be pregnant,

and they're like dancing. Obviously that's nice, but you know, in reality, a lot of times when we ask someone how they're feeling and what's going on, we're like the first person to have asked them that in like two years. So then we're like opening up a space, which I'm glad we get to do. UM. I love working with patients,

I love the services we provide. UM. But it's it's what what sucks and what's a failure is that I'm like the first health care provider to like ask them how they're feeling and actually care and like years, like we really get something. We get some patients who have been like shoot up and spit out by the health care system, and no one's ever given a ship and we all, we all are very good at giving a ship.

So um yeah, it really seems like just like everything that's wrong with this country gets thrown at like you specifically because this is like like every every sort of like every bit of racism, every bit of sexism, like every like failure of the health care system, like every every time, like and it's not even like everything on a political level and on a social level that goes wrong with people's lives. Yeah, yeah, I think it comes up a lot with stigmatized healthcare, um, like abortion and

then also hormontherapy I imagine was pretty similar. Is you're facing a lot of obstacles that are put up by the communities, the institution, and the health care system. The employer is like your family, there's a Remember we did an interview with a promotion activist from Mexico. One of the things that she was talking about was, um, she

called it social decriminalization. Oh is it kind of like destigmatizing Like yeah, yeah, but it's like like I think she didn't talk about it a huge amount, but it seemed like the concept behind it. It was like, Okay, so you have legal you have like legal criminalization, but then yeah, like social stigmatization means that it's still not really legal because there's there's like there's you know, there's

like social laws against the rights. You have to like deal with both and that that struck me as like

a really I don't know, is it really powerful? Like way to think about it, I guess, is it kind of like a moral thing where people think like it's not okay to get an abortion, so you get like that pressure and that yeah, and I think and also I mean, like it's not it's it's it's the pressure like applied on a person from just like you know, like I mean in Mexico is a lot of likely people who grow up Catholic, right, But also like it's the pressure from your family, is pressure from your friends,

it's a pressure from everyone around you. And you have to like socially like legal because Crystal has been doing this work longer than I have, Like I said, I've only been working at our current job for a year, which I love. UM. But definitely when I started UM, there were people in my life that I didn't think, we're going to get weird about it because I know a lot of liberal people. Most of all of my friends are very liberal, very open pro choice, like very

union friendly. And immediately I noticed that when I started talking happily about abortions, people would get really quiet and really awkward. Um, and they would be like that's great. I'm happy for you. But then that was like it like I couldn't and I'd be like no, but like abortions and then they're great, They're great. People need them. It's an essential service. And so I just upped up the anti more and I said about it a lot more.

This is what I gotta do, gotta weed out the week, Like if you're uncomfortable with my job job, I'm not

going to not talk about it with you. But yeah, that is a component to like also on top of literally everything else, like um, you know, like how hard the job is and how then we gotta like rally as a union and get better wages and and then we can't even sometimes talk about it because because of stigma, like with friends or family, like I can't talk about my parents or I can't talk with my parents about

my job. So it's just like this whole big part of my life because I'm pretty much like an abortion access activist and I just can't talk about it and with them, which is just you know, it's it would be nice if I could, but I can't, and I just kind of deal with it. And then also um, even tiny normal situations like getting a haircut or getting an uber. It's people ask you what you do all the time. I lie every time. But that's a decision you have to make because sometimes I lie and sometimes

I don't know what it is. I'm like, I'm gonna tell the truth, and it's like a gamble because I've told the truth before and then an uber driver starts praying for me. And then I've told the truth before and had someone um like open up to me and then we have a great conversation. And then I've told the truth before and had really awkward conversations were like I support abortion. I think some people have too many and I don't. And it's like, why are you telling

me to get out of here? Um? Yeah, this was a decision that I made for myself personally because of this. One time I took an uber to work and I mentioned what I did and then that guy, um, she started like talking about me to the antis in front of our job and they were like talking about it was it was actually it was a woman. It was a it was a female uber driver. I mentioned this to her, UM, and she went up and was like,

I think that like what you guys are doing. It's like she was talking to the anti specifically, she was like, what you're doing is too aggressive. You need to buy the building next door. Oh my god, set up shop there and make it less antagonizing so people want to listen to you. And then immediately in the group chat, everybody was like, who's talking to the antis? And I'm like, I just mentioned that I worked there. Um, it was

just a lot. So after that, I was like, on my way to work at the very least, I'm just not going to talk about it. I'm gonna be like, I work at a doctor's office downtown. It's like risk assessment. Yeah. I feel like the anti's learned my name by listening for the uber drivers and I've got uber drivers. They're like, who are you? What's your name? And I'm like, I'm not going to tell you because there's a dude standing there that wants to follow me. So you're gonna deal

with that aubrew driver. Yeah, we gotta switch up patterns when we come into work sometimes too, And I do what I actually started, Um, when I call an uber to work because I don't have a car all the time because I don't get paid that much. But when

I have to uber to work. Um, I've started getting dropped off like somewhere else and just waking because it's just too too many problems, too much Like got I get dropped off at like a different location, like a couple of blocks away from work, at a different spot usually, and then I just walk in, Like if you you might just want to go to work and drink your coffee and you have like your uber driver joined in

the protest outside. Let's like and it's worse because they know they picked you up, they know where you live, and they know your name, your name. They want to shout your name out the door. It's like because yeah, the protesters learned my name and they like chant my name and we're like I'll walk by and like the whispering my name, I'm like, what is this? This is kind of this is kind of kinky, but like yeah, and we decide that they don't actually know who you are.

They just like everybody with banks, yeah, yeah, yeah, So for the listeners, I have like pretty blunt banks. Yeah, but I'm not the only worker in the building obviously who has banks. But so everyone in the building it's like Crystal Crystal, I think everybody with banks, what's your worker named Crystal. I guess that's reassuring, but also bad for other people with banks because they might get killed. Yeah, it's like funny, but not funny. I'm he got We

try to make light of it real we have to. Yeah, So the other thing I still wanted to ask about was Crystal. Yeah, you've had like the bosses doing disciplinary action for stuff that you've been doing in terms of unions stuff. Were gonna talk about that a little bit technically pre disciplinary, but I mean, like what does it matter, because like the point is the same, is is intimidation.

It's very easy to do, is to get your lawyer, get your HR and have them talk to someone and then everybody knows about it because everybody talks at work, and bad gas travels fast and UM then they and the whole idea is to to scare people into not talking to reporters, not talking to UM people about what's going on. And I feel like it's difficult to talk about what's been happening like this is like I keep saying it, it's a it's a national health crisis. It's

a disaster. It's it's a tidal wave, it's a hurricane, and it's generational trauma. We're using all of these words, and then like I feel like being I'm pressured into not even talking about it because I'm talking about everything. I'm talking about how we're understaffed, I'm talking about how we're seeing patients from all over. I'm talking about, um

how how traumatizing it is. And for whatever reason, it's just more comforting for some of these organizations to hide under the table with their lawyer and just like shaking their boots and say like we could be sued for this, and we could be sued for that, and what if

that happens? What if this happens? And like for me, it's like, well, you know what, what what if someone dies because we can't get them in and they can't get to us because of legislation and there being no health care infrastructure because part of healthcare is also getting to the appointment. UM. So it's like that that exists and like people are suffering because of it. Like I just can't keep my mouth shut about that. And I definitely feel like as like somebody a member on the

bargaining team, and I also am ced our rally. UM, I feel like there's been a lot of pressure on me and my big mouth. Um, I feel like they were trying to intimidate me and scare me. And I'm

blessed for a couple of reasons. Number one, um my dad, who is otherwise conservative and doesn't support anything that I do, but he was a union stewart and growing up, I would see him resolving conflict as a union stewart, and that was very influential and inspirational to me because it really instilled some good values, even though we don't have the same values obviously, but and you didn't, but there's that, Like I I developed like a strong sense of labor

rights and labor activism from him, and then too, my first career choice was a middle school teacher, so I've taught seven in the eighth grade for about seven years. So like, literally nothing scares me, because after you've talked to a cafeteria full of a d twenty thirteen year olds, it's like that's it. That's like the scariest thing ever. Um.

So I'm not really afraid of the bullying and the intimidation. Um, which is good because it definitely is very effective and I'm sure a lot of people would be pissing themselves but um, I'm pissing uself a little bit, but I'm fine, Um, I have a second job after all that, Like that's like fun, you have to work another job. Like they're like one of the things I noticed is they're they're doing they're doing the working you for thirty five hours

and not forty because yeah, benefits. I don't know, like the impression that I get from this, and I think that makes you really angry is like it really feels like like the like how worried they are about being suited. It feels like like the fact that that's sort of like the basis of all this, and just like they the they're behaving as if they've already lost and they're trying to sort of like like claw and hold onto

whatever they have. But it's like if if if you're if you're fighting from the position of we have already lost,

you're you're just gonna keep losing. And it's like and and and you know it's not just that it's like okay, like if they were just doing that, but then you know, like not passing, like not literally forcing everyone else who's working with them to also be in the same sort of defeatism, Like it would be different, but it's like it's like no that they're they're then inflicting that on you, and it's just infuriating. Yeah. I think this also UM

to segue to something that actually had happened to me today. UM. As part of UM, you know, being in a call center for an abortion provider, is that we think this instills like a sense of fear for providers as well, UM for their own personal safety. It just makes it feel bigger because you have all these other people would be like, well, it's it's like these are all these things that could happen to you, this is what might

happen to you. UM. And I think that it makes providers have to evaluate, you know, their own risks to what they do. UM. And if you are somebody with not as strong values for this work, like it's not a strong opinion towards this work, it causes UM, you

to just neglect patients because UM. I had an incident that happened today where we had somebody call UM from a different state where abortion is not legal, and they had their best friend in the car with them I and they were like, my friend is like actively hemorrhaging. She's been like bleeding for days. Um, do you have like an emergency appointment? Like we could drive up to

p A. UM, Like what do I do? She's been to her doctor three different times and they refused to treat her because like viable, And in my brain, I'm just shaking because I'm like, this is a this is your job, Like you're the first thing as a doctor is to make sure that your patient doesn't die, and they might die. And I'm not a doctor, UM. And so I was like, if your friend is losing so much blood that you are worried for her safety, UM.

I know on the phone they were talking about how she felt like she it was like getting dizzy and like losing a ridiculous amount of blood. And I was like, I strongly suggest that you go to a hospital where um abortion is legal, since you're planning on, you know, coming up for an abortion anyway, UM, because in that case, they would have to treat you no matter what. UM. And if you know it's going to result in an abortion, then at the very least you're protected because you're hearing

your cross state lines. And I'm like, because any any hospital has to treat you, UM for something that's serious and it's it's scary to think that there are definitely other other providers and other places where this kind of thing is also happening. Um. And I just worry that, you know, um, what if I was ten minutes, Like what if I was two minutes late? What if I was thirty seconds? Like what if I told her to wait? Um?

Like some places kind of have to um or I told her that I couldn't help her, like some places kind of have to with these laws. I don't think that I could live with the guilt of that. M hm um. Yeah, it's just another another added trauma to the day. And I feel like a lot of people said and like these people suck. But a lot of people were saying that, like stuff like this wouldn't happen.

I know for a fact that I had so many I'm very vocal about origin access in my work, and I've had people tell me like people won't be hemorrhaging and driving across state lines, and I'm like, absolutely, they will be. Absolutely. And this was like a month ago, and then well more than a month ago. Time goes fast, but like this was like prior to dobs, I should say, but um, and it's just when they were telling me like, I don't believe you, and I'm like, what do you

mean you don't believe me? This is the most believable thing.

And then to have had people say that it wouldn't happen and to call me a liar and like a drama queen, and then now to like, I mean, I wasn't I didn't get a call like that, but like to hear like my co worker and like and then just like hearing it happen elsewhere, because like you know, we have comrades and and union UM siblings in Ohio UM with other unions and they've talked about it happening, and just so hearing my my um my peers talking

about it and just knowing like we knew this would happen, and we just it feels like we just like walked right into it with no plan. There's still no plan. People are still in cars drive across state lines while

actively hemorrhaging. And I don't know what it will be done other than US workers really stepping up and hopefully the community then supporting us UM, because we can't do it without community support, like like Elizabeth was saying before, you know, oh and Elizabeth was actually talking before about the food that we've been getting from the community, and this also made me think of what it looks like to turn up for workers in general, because you know,

we're all workers here, and like, we know what it feels like where you're too busy to stop and eat and you're just going through your day and you're running on fumes and you're exhausted. But the fact that our community was like feeding has been feeding us and like turning up for us to the point where like I was having good healthy food confused me from day to day in that well since then and then it really got me wondering, like, is this is what it likes?

This is what it's like when you have well fed workers and that are cared for. So, you know, if the only people answering the call for these these people who need healthcare are us, We're exhausted, we don't have time to go out and get food, especially since we've got people following us down the street whatever, um, while we go get a hot dog trying to bother us, um.

But then to have like the community bringing us food and then being well fed, it was just like, oh my god, what if all workers were well fed and all communities turned up for their workers. Wouldn't that be so nice? And it got me thinking like like, wow, this is like a really positive thing that is not really talked about. Like I mean, we talked about feeding people, but like what if workers were were well fed? Like I don't like healthcare workers. It's just it's been really nice.

And I love our community. Um, I love our city. I love the organizations that have been organizing it. We're incredibly grateful. Yeah, they're fantastic, They're they're so good to us. Um. I know that for those couple of weeks where we had food in our breakroom, UM, I think we worked a lot better. Everybody was in much better moods. I didn't get shaky hands, you know. Yeah, we were all like really excited to see each other and talk to each other and talk about our days. Um just over

like actually good coffee. And it was just a huge morale boost to have the community supporting the workers. And then now we have the community coming to our union rally saying we support you, we want you to get paid more, we want you to have better staff, and that is just like so necessary right now because we need we need the community. We need everyone. What else can listeners who are who are like want to help but are not in the industry do just uh to

support you all well? And I guess on two levels, like one is like like, what what can they do sort of in general in their communities? And then to specifically to help y'all with your fight with the hospital, the clinic just a little clinic, just a tiny, little, tiny little guy. UM. I know that for us specifically, I think, do what you do best. If you are a person who likes to make art, um, we love

seeing your drawings. We love seeing like your handwritten notes. UM. If you're a person who makes a really good cup of coffee um, or if you're a cafe who just wants to bring us coffee, we love coffee. UM. If you're a bakery that wants to donate like donuts or you know, cheesecakes, we will happily eat them. Um. Yeah. If you want to, like send us a Bluetooth speaker

so we can listen to music during the day. Whatever you do best is what we would love as long as it comes from like you, comes from your heart like we love um. Weighted blankets and fluffy things and snacks and just um, all of those things that come like from the heart make us feel like it's worth it UM at least from the community UM. And things also that we don't have to think about UM because as beautiful as make your own taco kids are, we still have to have time to make our own talks

the taco. Yeah. So if if there's anything that you could just like throw at us, and it's already like put together, like assembled, has very little thought, like a UM, a zombie or a toddler or a burnt out abortion worker. Can you know put two and two together? We love those two. And you could also follow our union UM. And there's actually a bunch of abortion care worker unions. We're not the only one, we are many. We are

legion UM. So you can really follow any of us and just boost what we need because right right now the p p f A union like New York City San Francisco is needing a lot of boosting what they're what they're doing, goot Mocker union needs a lot of love and support. But our union UI Local six night six UM. Our social media is at p p w P Union UM not to self promote, but if you go on there. There are videos of our rally and I need uter is shaped paniata if anything wants to

see us busted open. It's pretty good, it's pretty cool. We busted open a uterus shaped pinata at our rally and as we brought up a UM union family child because it was it was the son of a local union member. We brought him up and we helped him splash the panada, the uterus panada, and as he was swinging, it was like, this is what we think about low wages, this is what we think about scot is, this is what we think about understaffing. And then candy just like

burst out of it. It was like a normal birth, you know, Yeah, glitter and candy pop out, very realistic. Actually, abortions to people don't know this, but glitter always comes out during an abortion can confirm there's gonna be there's gonna be like three people who actually believe you. They're gonna they're gonna like tell their friend this and their friends gonna be like, what are you talking about there?

You're like, no, no, I heard it on a podcast, or like the servis sprays glitter when you when you touch it, dilating the cervix is really just opening it up so that it litter come out. Yeah, I guess. Well, okay, so logistics wise, Yeah, if you send me links, I will we will put them in the episode description. Um. Yeah, and yeah, I guess do you two have anything else that you want to say? Um? I don't think so, other than like thank you for having us. Um, this

is super fun. We had a great time. Yeah, me too. Yeah, it was good. I love talking about abortion. Oh yeah, oh my god. Me and Elizabeth on the phone, just gabbing away and we'll we'll be on twenty on a call twenty minutes talking to like someone who who needs help, and then we'll like get off and then we'll be gavin about whatever for like ten minutes and mostly TikTok's

mostly TikTok. But um, yeah, I know. It's it's so important too that we can be platformed as like abortion care workers, as union members, as people working in a stigmatized field during a crisis. It's very it means so much, and it's meant a lot to me to see how many abortion episodes this podcasts, Like, yeah, you're really cover and everything. Yeah, I was looking them up and I was like there's it's it's every angle of abortion care and I love it. We love to see buy a

knowledge too, and we love to see it. You're gonna run out of topics so eventually, but you really should have an episode about the serve ex glitter. Yeah, so this will this will be our Actually wait are you full episodes? Actually booked man be the second apul fulls episode. More people need to know about this phenomenon alright, that this this has been naked happen here. Uh, you can find us in the places where you know where, defind us because we see this at the end of every episode.

H yeah, thank you too again, thank you it could happen here is a podcast. Sometimes it's about good stuff and ways people can fix things. Sometimes it's about frightening stuff like today, today's a scary episode. Joining me to scare everybody is Professor Calvin Norman. Calvin, how are you doing today? Oh, Robert, I do well some days, but most days not. I work on climate change, invasive species, forest health issues, a chronic waste disease. So their problems

with those things. Okay, well, actually, last time were we talked abou climate change? Solve that? So We're We're good. That's all. We locked that down right, Yeah, you get we got the we got the eels fed. That was the problem. Oh yeah, yeah, there's like a car company that's electric. We're nailing it, so I get. We had you on the show once before to talk about how

the forest is bad. Uh yeah, um, still bad. Still a lot of problems in the forest, as the people who are watching their forests burn can probably uh say, although there's other problems than that, as we talk about in your episode. Didn't mean an email a while back. It took a bit for me to get my ship together to have you back on. But it was a frightening email about a disease sweeping through the country that could have massive effects on the lives of everybody listening

to this. Um, And it's not one of the diseases that you're all thinking about. I know, there's a couple of things that meet that decision that that like, there's a couple of different diseases running on checked throughout the United States at the moment and the world. Um, we are not talking about either of the ones that are big in the news right now. We're gonna talk chronic wasting disease. Calvin, you want to kind of introduce that concept to the people, because this was not something I

really I had heard of it, but I didn't. It was just kind of like, you know, animals have weird diseases, right, cats get you know, lymphoma or whatever. I never thought about it much as a as a thing that was a problem other than a problem for some deer. But it is. It is quite an issue. Yeah, yeah, it's if it stays in dear, I will be happy. Let's put it like that. So, um, we're gonna actually like do a little throwback to the past year. Watch watch

out an We're gonna go back to the nineties. All right, I'm gonna go We're gonna get I'm gonna get my shoulder pads on, I'm gonna get my X Files poster stuck up on the wall. I'm gonna vote for a serial sexual abuser. Well that's that's every decade. Um, okay, sorry, So, so chronic wasting diseases a pry and the reason we're

going back to is a prime disease. And the reason we're going back to the nineties is to to look at the the most the biggest like reason any one would have heard of a prion disease outside of like you know some like you know, brain scientists and stuff, and that's you know, bovo line, bovine sponge form and sapalopathy or more commonly known as mad cow disease. So you know, Robert, I'm not sure how much you are

aware of mad cow. It popped up in the US in the mid two thousand's, but it killed a bunch of people in England in the nineties. Yeah, isn't there like there's still restrictions on like blood donation and stuff if you lived in England at a certain period, right, like there's some weird ship like that. Yeah, you can't donate blood for that. Um, that's a very good reason.

We'll go in too that in a second. Actually, I wass in England not too long ago, and I did not eat beef there because I've read too much about prions to mess around with that stuff. Yeah, I mean, thankfully here in America we have health food standards, unlike those filthy Brits. But yeah, yeah, we had us Scare um Canada head of Scare and we'll talk about the repercussions of that later. But so the reason we're going back is we're gonna look at the most recent time

prians have become mainstream. So what happened there? So well, let me just unfold this a little bit. That's a joke, y'all all understand in three minutes hopefully. So a prion, it's a protein in your brain. Now, UM, I'm not a neurologist. I am a wildlife biologist for sorry, so um, I'm not gonna be answer every question out there about brains and proteins and stuff like that. Um, but what what the prion protein in your brain does is it

moves copper around, which is important for cell stuff. I personally think that mankind should have never looked through a microscope and everything at the cider level is just harresy. We shouldn't look at it at all. Now, I'm i'm, I'm I'm completely on board with you there. There's certain things we never should have studied, and anything that involves a microscope is one of them. Oh yeah, you lost me there. HandLens I'm good for you can like see

like small stuff, but microscopes out. Okay. So, so in your brain you're moving around copper and stuff and it's important for the cell stuff. So, um, we're gonna go back to high school biology. For most folks, you know, proteins building block of life important. So your protein structure is dictated by the elements in it and how they're like arranged, you know, like stacked on top of each other.

So that's that's basic, you know, high school biology. But then you know, as you get a little bit further in biology, you find out there's it's a little bit more complex. So proteins, like you know, all things in our real world are unfortunately not like in the textbook, and these are three D and so they have like shapes and folds. Now, when folded correctly, it just prion protein operates normally and just moves copper around. Um, unfortunately

doesn't always. You know, sometimes it doesn't fold correctly and when that happens, it doesn't move copper. And so brains have a little bit of an issue because they don't get copper. Yeah, and this is why all those trucks stops sell those copper bands that you can put on your risk to solve diseases. Right, it's to deal with that. Yeah, you just keep that copper band on your rest. So that problem. Yeah, So so what what happens when that

happens is you get a prion disease. There are some that evolved in that just like they don't evolve because they're not living. Um that just pop up in nature. So like a spongef bovine sponge ofform and sepalopathy mad cow ropins a little bit earlier, talk about in a second scrapey uh, feline spongeform and sepalopathy which comes from cats that ate meat that was infected with mad cow um.

And then there's kuru. I think, yeah, that's the one cannibals get, right, Like, this is famously why cannibals quote unquote go crazy. Actually a lot of cannibals. We're well aware that you don't eat meat from certain areas, but it is a thing if you're going to eat people, be really careful about the spine. Don't eat brains and spines. Yeah, that's that's exactly. Yeah. Um, there's um and in humans it's called um. The spongeforms seplopathy. I'm gonna explain the

big word in one second. It's called crom helds yakops disease. It was too Germans really neat stuff. Yeah, it's one of my favorite disease names because you just know you're in for some like horrifying shit when you when you see the that spelled out, you're like, well, that's got to be something bad. Yeah. Well, luckily, like you know, for two German guys like alive in the thirties deed good stuff, like they doctors who weren't not seas in

that period. Yeah, it seems like one of them died right before things like that, you know, things went out there and then time Yeah yeah, okay, So so I've been throwing around this word spongeform at sepalopathy um and then like you know, I changed like the you know, bovine, feline, whatever. So it a sponge of form means something looks like a sponge. And then it's epalopathy means brain. So your

brain turns into a sponge. And that's because you're not getting copper and so cell cells are falling apart, and it's your brain just doesn't work, to be real simple, it's kind of like Alzheimer's that's like presents the humans, which is why it's really hard to figure out, all right, And then when you want to determine that something has spongeform, and sepalopathy. You've gotta cut the brain open, look at

it under a microscope. Hell, yeah, you do. UM. And as you can imagine, that doesn't usually happen in people. You don't usually cut the brains open. And also in a lot of animals, you don't usually cut the brain open, look at it under microscope. Well it's bad, that's not. Yeah, it's always lethal, always a legal example. So like that's the basics of like what a prian disease is UM. And then when we saw it in in England, what

had what had happened was got into cows. Cow's got it from eating other cows that were fed back to them, and then it got into humans because we ate what we the Brits in the third in the in the nineties eight cows that were infected with bovine sponge of formats eplopapy and you had to eat a good amount of it for it to build up in your brain. And what I mean by that is we're Americans, right, right, So not a problem for Americans. I just want to kind of like lay a foundation so we all understand

what's going UM. And so what I mean I build up in your brain is like you know, you get like one two proteins in there, You're fine, It's okay. Protein has been full at the time. It takes you know, brains are big, especially in humans, so it takes a while for this to becoming problem. But what happens is over time is one is, once you build up enough, you're get exposed to enough prions that are misfolded, like the prions in the brains start misfolding, and then slowly

your brain just starts stops functioning correctly. Yeah, it you know, it's it's like a chain, like a slow chain reaction. UM. So that's the basics of of um Prian diseases and spongeform and stephalopathies. Now we're talking about chronic wasting disease UM, which can be easily described as the deer equivalent of mad cow disease. And like when you see a lot of stuff about it, people just it's like called like zombie deer because like deer get weird when they are

like dying from chronic wasting disease. Like the name chronic wasting disease comes from because they like wasting away. They're like drooling and also drinking a lot. They act weird. They look dumb. Um, they just do weird stuff, and so people call it zombie like, dear, but they're not. Um, They're just infected with a prime disease and their brightness falling apart. It's like it's like a person getting Alzheimer's, Like, you know, they do weird stuff. My grandma has Alzheimer's

is terrible, don't get it? Yeah, yeah, my grandma had um the same thing that Robin Williams got the Loui body dimension, and it's it's pretty much the same thing, right, Like you can just see somebody kind of falling apart piece by piece. But that probably does make the deer easier to hunt, yes, and it also makes it really easy to identify when it's it's advanced stages in dear. So we've got kind of an understanding of about it. But like, you know, why do we care? We are people?

We are not dear, right, Robert, are you a dear? Uh? Not right now? I mean I have been to a furry convention, but but I didn't commit. So we all got our things. Well. Um, so I I hunt, dear Robert, I think you hunt. I don't know I'm getting I'm getting ready for for hunting season as we as we speak. Yeah, so so, um, lots of people hunt deer and they eat deer, which is which is cool and it's fine and it's important to do in you know, certain ecosystems.

I mean in most of the US, like, deer have been hunted by various you know humans for yeah, as long as people have been here, so you know, it's it's a natural thing to do. It's very normal for people to hunt deer and it's very normal. And also there are areas where we killed everything else that hunts deer. Yeah, so there's there's anyway whatever. We don't need to defend deer hunting here. I I've done hours of webinars on the points of deer management. It's it's a real fun

subject to you. But we do care about that. We're talking about chronic waste disease, fun stuff. So so we care about that. We care about chronic wasting disease because it impacts all members of the servant family or deer. So that's you know, elk moose. I just learned the Europeans called moose European elk wild arrogant again this, Yeah, look at a moose. Look at an elk super different. It's wildly different animals. Like they're both very big, but

they're also different sizes. It's like the difference between like an armored car and a tank. Like a fucking moose is like it's basically an elephant in terms of its footprints. Like, yeah, they're so cool to see that enormous Yeah, yeah, the impact it can get in all servants that we know it's um and you know, people like you know, people like to see servants, they like to hunt servants. We'd like to do it, you know in different countries. They're delicious.

They have the best meat. Yes, absolutely, so much better than fucking beef, so much better than pork in my opinion, Like fucking love venicel Oh yeah, moose. I don't know if you had moose. I've had once. Oh it's yeah, moose and elk wonderful meats. That's actually a big thing Joe Rogan and I talk about when we're hanging out is elk meat. He's a big elk meat guy. That's good. I've I've never I've never hunted an elk. I've put it for the lottery every year, but it's hard to

get hard to get elk tags in Pennsylvania. I know, it's a real surprise. Yeah, you know what, I'll go ahead and reach out. Now. It's easy to get the tags here, but it is hard unless you have a friend with land that elks are on to actually hunt them as as much as Yeah. Anyway, if you've got land in Oregon and you want me to hunt elk

on it, hit hit us up. Yeah. So so you know, as we can see, this is a clear demand for servants and servent products, and so in like the fifties and sixties, people started, you know, they're like, well, you know, sometimes you're not always good at hunting, and not everyone wants to hunt, so they started trying to domesticate and farm them, right, um servants famously like running away, I've seen a lot of deer tails, Robert, you hunt, I'm sure you have, yeah, yeah, and a lot of like

tracks that you can tell and like with ship or something near them that like, oh man, I fucking missed that son of a bitch by like thirty seconds. Yeah yeah, and if if even if you drive around you'll see just they're like, oh car, I'm out in five thousand that that don't need to be here. Sometimes they go across the road and hit him. That's the story. M yeah some states. Yeah, even sometimes it's bruce to heck. But that is how I get to eat some moose.

Someone hit it with a car. Hell yeah. Um but um, so they don't like being in captivity at all. Not a fan, not a fan, and so they're very they're very stressed in captivity. And then like in the sixties in Colorado, um at on the Colorado University of Colorado, on their deer farm, they noticed like the deer were getting skinny and weird. And that's how that's where chronic wasting disease was discovered, because we tried to fucking farm

an animal that's not okay, awesome, I love it. Yeah, yeah, there there are some folks who think that it's a natural thing. But it doesn't look like it doesn't look like it. Uh, no reports of it being around from before the sixties. And as we laid out, lots of people ate a lot of deer and saw a lot of deer before the sixties, so probably came from farming servants. So then since then, um, there's the deer farming is not really regulated and also deer are not really easy

to keep in captivity. They like to jump and like when fences, fences blow down, and so they'll get out of captivity. And like also other deer they like come up to you know, captive deer and they're like, yo, what's up with you? Though you're in a cage, huh, And so you can actually see them. They'll like interact through the fence. Um, and that's probably how it got out of containment, is through interactions and you know, servants

being spread around the country. And so now chronic waste disease is found in thirty states I think, four Canadian provinces, uh, Scandinavia, and Korea, so I think it's four or five countries. So so it's out there. It's out there, um, and it's it's infecting served populations across the US and across the across Canada, the world. Um. It's real bad. It's real bad. So it seems like a problem. Yeah. Yeah. So if you're a deer, what happens is you either

interact with another to pick up chronic wasting disease. We'll go through the deer kind of the progression and deer to pick it up. Do you either interact with the deers that has chronic wasting disease. You go up and smell them, you look them a little bit. Deer groom each other, you know the animals. Um, you eat a plant that another deer pooped on, Now it doesn't have to have pooped on that plant, So like this is

a deal. It's effective with chronic chronic waste disease. Can poop in the soil and the plant will pick up the pryon from the soil and then yeah, and then another deers can come in. It can just spread. Yeah cool, that's that's some real scary yeah. Yeah. And it can also you can also pick it up from water, but it has Spreading in water is really tough. So um, those are your main vectors is you know, deer to

deer and environment to deer um. And that's why it's pretty tough to control once it gets into a state because to destroy it you have to dig up the soil and you have to burned a thousand degrees for an hour or you have to expose exposure to bleach for an hour to destroy the prion. Because it's not a living thing, it's a protein. Yeah, I mean, and there are a couple of towns that I would be okay doing that too, but on a wide scale that

seems difficult to pull off. Yeah. I can think of a state that starts with an O in an age that I wouldn't mind losing, you know, if we just were like, why not give it a shot? Right? Yeah, it's just Ohio, Come on, it's not it's not a real state. So in Dear, we're gonna just we're gonna stay just in the deer where we're not gonna get

scary yet. So in in Dear, this slowly builds up throughout the population and you get worst case scenarios like in south western Wisconsin where like the deer harvested uh buck's harvested a year are positive for chronic wasting disease, and because it's an always fatal you know, brain disease, you're looking at population collapse in extinction. Yeah, because it remains in the soil too, Like it's it's around or

at least two probably more years. But the studies we've done our only two years, because um, these are not fun things to study. People have died studying these diseases from prions, like when they when they've done work on like BSc lab tech actually pricked herself with the tool uh and got um c j c j D and died from it. So yeah, they're not fun to study really, you know that's this is like we're talking like Martian suit style study stuff. It's not fun. So the stand

level ship yeah, yeah, yeah exactly. Yeah, so so like you know it without you know, when chronic wasting disease is not addressed into your populations, like in southeastern or southwestern Wisconsin, you're looking at extinction level stuff because all of the deer that are out there are most you know them have chronic waste disease or at some point in getting chronic waste disease, which means that they're putting more and more of in the environment and they're more

like if you're a non affected deer, you're you know, three cores, your buddies are infected, so you're going to get chronic wasting disease and be dead within two or three years. So you're looking at extinction of all servants in that area for some amount of time until it comes out of the soil. That's bad. That is a problem. Yes, yeah, yeah, as we have established neither of us are dear, So why do we care? I mean outside of like the fact that deer are pretty important to the ecology of

local areas and that that collapses bad. Yeah, why what is what is the problem? Like, what is the risks to human beings beyond that? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, we put we put in college all aside all the time, like this is the world. We don't really care about that. Yeah, I ideal with what happened that you pretty college aside.

So I'm super used to that that being done. So the risk is if it jumps into humans, because all of a sudden, you have a disease that's really hard to detect that can live in the ironman that can be transferred from not just spinal fluid, but like if you eat a lot of infected meat from deer. You know, if you eat um, some of the organs you can get at a high risk. So so you know, all of a sudden, you have a large portion of the

population that could be exposed through direct consumption. But the other thing is is prions are really hard to kill. I said, they live in soil. They also live on steel surfaces, glass surfaces, every like surface that they've tested, like trying to kill prions, like you know, putting prions on seeing how long they live there hang out there.

There was some surgical equipment that was infected with a prion gave someone chronic wasting not crying c j D three years after using it out someone who had um c j D G. Yeah, and that's like you know, surgical great stainless steel stuff so like not supposed to hold things, gets like cleaned, but not like super like not prian level clean because they didn't know about at the time. So so there's there's the risk is is is it could potentially develop into a human something that

impacts human's Like right now it hasn't. We do have eight different variations of it out there in the landscape, and as more and more deer exposed to it, what happens, we get more and more variations of it, because that's just what happens in nature. As we're all becoming familiar with with COVID. Yeah, it keeps changing because it's nothing has been done to stop it from spreading. Yeah, and like the only thing you can do to stop it is just like reduced deer numbers. You can't really eliminate

out of the landscape because it's in the soil. Yeah, and you can't you can't test live dear for it. You gotta kill him to do it. There's they are developed. There are some tests being developed to determine if animals are infected UM that are faster, but you know, it's still it's still in progress. So that's called art quick. It's a protein test that's that's much faster than current testing,

but it's still in progress. So the thing that really scares me is the other, well, the other thing about that makes chronic wasting to these different from you know BS mad cow diseases. Mad cow was in cows that were in you know, captive spaces and you know, you know where the cows are. Yeah, it's a problem, but it's a problem that you can, like with enough fire and or other tools eradicate. Yeah. Yeah, And it didn't it didn't seem to be you know, very president soil.

And it was like you had defeat dead cows to dead cow to live cows to get them infected. Chronic waste disease is a different beast UM. So the real scary potential here is that it's in soil so you can get into plants, and we know that plants get transmit chronic waste disease other deer, so it could you know, transmitted to other animals like things that eat plants. You know, for example, you and I eat plants. If you're an American, you eat corn and a couple of different forms. Um,

dear love hanging out in corn fields. Oh yeah, So there is an exposure vector right there. And you know when you're doing when you're processing cornate corncer Let's say, um, you take a bunch of corn from a bunch of the places. Uh sposh it up, grind it up. You know, you do a bunch of stuff to it in on steel surfaces and you don't need to a thousand degrees for an hour. So all of a sudden you have like a case of sota that could be infected with

chronic wasting disease. There's the potential, the big potential damage if this ship jumps to people, which it hasn't yet. I want to be really clear about that, so we're not causing to but if it does, the containment thing is like even in order of magnitude beyond fucking COVID ship, right, like it's because it's spread through the soil, it gets into the fucking basic ingredients of food, and we we simply the way that we process that stuff isn't set

up in a way that will eliminate it right now. Yeah, and I would tell you you really can't on a large scale like process anything that's then make it safe from you know, like chronic wasting disease, because you have to like you know, if you if you like cut up like let's let's let's go back to like assuming like you know, it's just in you you're handling an affected deer. If you cut that deer up, you use your knife, you gotta put it in bleach for an hour and then you can come back to bleak is

really corrosive, so eventually destroy your knife. There's there's your end thing there. But you can also be through your hands, you know, touching it you can get it. Um. Yeah, So there's this's a scary part there. I mean, like you like, as you point out and I start, I really totally failed on my part to menion. It hasn't jumped to humans. Yes not. We are not saying you are going to get the disease tomorrow. That is not. But it also like isn't it like there's nothing that

says it can't jump to humans right right right exactly. So, UM, there have been a number of like three or four. There is two studies I know if I there's a third one I've heard about. UM looking at if you know, human like animals can get chronic waste and disease. So

that's macaques, which are a kind of monkey. UM. And when they have been fed chronic you know, meat and infected chronic waste disease UM, and they were exposed to blood, they were fed it, they were exposed to blood and so it was just injected right into the back of their brain stem um. The monkey's got chronic wasting disease.

So it looks like it's possible. UM. And then also hamsters, which are also used as a human standing have also been fed meat infected with chronic wasting disease and they were able to get it, and they really get it from a number of different sources. UM. There are some really like fun and by fun, I mean scary papers out there about like all the ways like chronic wasting

disease moves around and survives. Uh. And the studies about like using human standings are not always fun to read, and this is this is definitely one of those things where it's like, yeah, what is the other option other than yeah, you have to try it on ship? That's yeah, that's that's very unsettling, But like, yeah, what else are you gonna do? Like, have you this is something you

do have to know? Yeah, yeah, and um. The other problem with prions is detection when it comes to like, you know, different species, because it presents like Alzheimer's and so the only way you know that something got up prion disease is if you cut their head. If you cut its head open, you look at its brain. So um. When and in humans, it can take a long time for these symptoms to present, I think, like if you look it up on Wikipedia, it's is like the average

like age detection is sixty years and then we're good fine. Yeah. Yeah. The researchers that I've spoken to say it takes like forty years for enough prions to build up in your brain for it to like, you know, start to show symptoms, so you know if it is to jump, if it jumps, the species bearer the first time we detected will probably not be the first time anyone has been infected. Yeah, it will already have spread quite widely and then people will hopefully not but yeah, so so that that's the

scary part. That that's the human side scary part. But you know, we don't always have to keep human side scary. Sometimes. You know, things work in you know, monkeys and hamsters that don't work in humans. And we've cured cancer, you know, hundreds of times in mice, right yeah, and in humans it's a lot harder to do because we're not mice, we're not monkeys, we're humans. So it doesn't always work like that. But the the other scary part is when

it comes to agriculture and the impact on agriculture. So pigs can pick up chronic wasting disease there what's called a prian amplifier, so they can pick it up. They can like you know, hangs out in them, just find it doesn't kill pigs at all. They can people. That's true. That's the truth right there, that's the truth. Yeah. So so you know, if if it you know, as people, you know, government's become more aware of it and more

concerned about it. There there's the real possibility of you know, agricultural exports get hammered on, you know, exporting it because you know other countries you know, are concerned about spreading it. So right now, you know it's pretty hard to well, it's getting increasingly the harder to export live dear probably should be Probably farming service is not a great idea for their health and ours. But um, you know, also

there's the concern about spread. So if if chronic wasting disease is you know, crosses from humans to cows like we've seen, you know, like if you know BSc just pops up in some cows, you know that might be from chronic waste disease, and the impact that is going

to be huge. I mean Canada they were shut out of the Japanese market for fourteen years, like Japanese beef market for fourteen years following a case of mad cow disease and two thousand and six they got let back in two years ago and the studies and that was like a couple of billion dollars in damage to the

Canadian beef market. So you know, and that was BSc, which does not do it doesn't transfer via plant, So imagine it is the US, you know, agricultural sport market market got shut down for plants that like economic damage is incalculable. Yeah. Yeah, so that's the scary part of electronic wasting disease. Those are all the scarinesses. That's what keeps me up at night. This is frightening and important for people to be aware of because it's a serious threat.

Are there things that can be done at the moment? Like, is there is there inactionable You're not just like not on a what can our audience do? But like, is there a thing that could potentially be done by you know, states or the federal government never that would help this? Like is there actually do we do it? Do we have any fucking idea of like what could be done to make it less likely for the kind of nightmare

scenarios that we've alluded to to occur here. Yeah. So the best kit, you know, the best things we can do are to you know, hunt deer, reduced der population, so that way you're you know, taking deer out that might be infected. And when you hunt deer in most areas that infected you, there's a you test them for free, you with your state or various authorities, and so then those carcasses are destroyed, so you can remove you know,

disease off the landscape that way. Um. And then by also just hunting deer, you reduce population levels and so you make it you make the disease loading in the landscape lower and it less likely to spread, you know, both to other deers and then potentially vector to other animals exposed to other animals. Um. Excuse me. New York is a great example of this. They had a case of chronic waste and disease pop up, took it out really,

you know, hunted that area hard. I think that they even brought in professionals and did some real serious deer reduction and they haven't had a case since. So you know, in areas where it pops up, you can just hammer it with you know, lethal removal of animals, harvesting whatever, and um, you can prevent spread um, and you cannot you can really not get back the other thing we got to do. We need to be very serious about we need to take the captive servant industry. So I've

used the word server a couple of times. I never defined it, my apologies. Servants are members of the deer family, so elk moose yeah, seek a deer. All those guys read deer fatility or what a bunch of them? Um, we need to make sure that we're very closely regulating that industry because of the potential spread. There was a farmer in Wisconsin that sent like almost four hundred different infected deer to like a hundred nineties seven different farms

UM over the course of like four years. So you know, it's regulation is incredibly important. UM, and it's it's rarely. You know, it's not really enough on most farms. My home state here we have UM. You know, if you make less than ten thousand dollars from your servant farm, you don't have to report it, you don't have to track it or anything. That's a real problem because we are experiencing expanding chronic waste disease. So regulation, you know,

that's fun. Maybe we just shouldn't be farming servants. Maybe that's bad. Yeah. I don't disagree with you at all there. Yeah, not not a fan. Yeah. From the ethical standpoint too, there's there's many I raise a several different I raised bunnies and chickens and goats, and I help raise sheep for for meat. Uh, there's plenty of different things that you can raise for meat that are used to it because we've been raising them for meat for like tens

of thousands of fucking years. Like the sheep. I have orangoras, which I didn't go back like twenty thirty thousand years, Like they're they're they're they're meant for it. We have changed them into animals that are supposed to be raised for meat. Don't take new animals and try to farm

them like that because it seems like it causes problems. Yeah, well, there's a really neat there's a really neat work out there about the about domestications stress and like you know, domestic kids sheep don't care about being domesticated, whereas like they've compared like domesticate cheap to wild cheep. Wild sheep die really quick when you put the domestication from the stress.

But yeah, like you said, uh, maybe maybe we don't Maybe we don't play around with some of these animals to try to force them to do human what we humans want them to do. You know, it's okay for animals to just be animals. Wrong with that? Um. Yeah, So the other thing, there was a large amount of money set aside, and I can't remember which legislative packager was they got defeated a while back that put money

towards chronic wasting disease research. So you know, legislators and states can be you know, legislatures and government can be taken seriously putting money towards it. Right now, it's there's not a lot of money going towards it because it's like, yeah, it's a zombie deer thing, who cares. Yeah, well, you could get into this is not just a problem for deer hunters. This could be a real issue for everybody. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, I mean, I mean it's kind of like

a larger symptomatic thing too. We don't really take environmental problems that seriously. Um yeah, yeah, I mean the yeah, the scary thing about this is we don't treat the environmental problem seriously. When everyone's saying, like, hey, the consequence is that like all of Florida will be uninhabitable, right, Like, we don't take that seriously. So when you're saying, this

is much wonkier, which is definitely a barrier to effective action. Yeah, I did a legislative testimony about chronic wasting disease a couple of months back, and no one was paying attention, but you know, it made me feel good. I was doing something. Oh he was a fun thing about Florida and chronic waste disease. So Florida, you know, full of invasive species. Obviously it has chronic waste disease. Like it's a Florida obviously gotta pick up a new disease. You

know what else is in Florida Colonies of macaques. There's like two colonies of I was unaware of that. Yeah, was it because people were an ill advisedly keeping pets. I think one of them started that way, and I think one of them was like some monkeys that have been like kept for testing or zoo stuff escaped. But there are at least like two like colonies of like maccas in Florida, which also has chronic waste disease. So you know there's I don't think the chronic they're like

near the Everglades. I don't think chronic waste disease made that far south of Florida. So there's a there's a fun possibility of the lab experiments under highly control conditions getting um, you know, performed in in the wild setting. We could see if if mccax can pick up chronic waste disease in the wild. Um, there's a there's a fun research project for someone who uh, you know is able to handle dark sides of things. Yeah, thank you Florida. Um.

But more importantly, thank you flow right. Uh. And a lot of people are unaware of this was just a couple of years ago in the Eurovision Song Awards representing San Marino. So you know, twenty two overall not bad. Yeah, that's pretty good, better than I could do. Good day. And also, you are not technically a citizen of the Republic of San Marino. No, but yet they offered me citizenship. I would consider it absolutely. Who wouldn't want to be

a citizen of the most serene Republic of San Marino. Yeah, I I've looked at Andorra, so you know it would be a really we're looking at European micro nations. I mean, if and door came knock in versus San Marino, obviously sam Real is getting kicked to the curb. I love that like dual like government between the President of France and like the Pope of or not the Bishop. It's like a bishop of like somewhere in Italy. Yeah, it's very funny. Um yeah, you gotta love those weird little

micro republics. Huge fan. Yeah. Um, so okay, well this has been great. Yeah, I'm glad this is happening. Yeah. Yeah, it's cool and fun. Yeah. I'm not usually fun to hang out with when I talk about work stuff, I know, but it's like it's again, people need to be aware of this, Like this is one of those just in the same way that like people were talking about for

years prior to COVID. Hey, we we actually really need to be aware, like a coronavirus could break out and it will spread really quickly due to the way that global travel and transit and stuff works, and it'll be almost impossible to control. Um, you know, we should we should build structures into our societies to make it easier for us to deal with a coronavirus, which we didn't do, but maybe we'll do it this time. Yeah, well what makes it really fun? I'm just gonna I'm gonna build

off you for a second. You've fallen into my trap here. The same people who were writing about like mers and predicted you know, I can't remember which game first merser Stars, I can't remember which one. The same people who predicted that and then who are also predicting um COVID are also talking about chronic wasting disease. So it's like, you know, I really hope you don't get to be right on this one. You know, I just want you to lose

one of these times here, Bud. You're a nice guy, real smart guy, but can you be wrong occasionally, just for just for like you know, old time's sake. Just be nice to me. Yeah, well, there we go. Um, that's been a fun episode. Everybody have a good time. Um, thank you, Calvin. Do you have anything you want to like plug before we roll out here? Yeah? I would like to plug. Trees' is real neat try that we are supported by trees. Um, not the plant, but a

club in Dallas that I took ecstasy at once. That's a primary sponsors physically supported by trees. My computers on wood so oh excellent? Yeah? Is that also good? Yeah, trees like to plug. Also getting outside, that's good for you? Do that consolutely get outside for sure? Yeah. Uh. Tweet tweets from from birds. I don't do the twitters, not not from Twitter yes, definitely. Yeah, those are things that

I'd like to plug. Yeah, Replacing the tweets from Twitter that you encounter with tweets from birds is probably among the best things you can do for your mental health, unless it's this one bird that lived outside of my apartment in Los Angeles. But anyway, um well, Calvin, thank you for coming on. I appreciate your expertise, even though it's always deeply unsettling. Um that's gonna do it for all of us here today. And it could happen here, by which I mean you would me, oh boy, it

is behind the it happened could here. I'm Evans Robert podcast song. Hello, who else is on the call? What are we doing? Where are we? It's it's it's me. Uh, It's Christopher Wong. I'm gonna talk a lot this episode. There's also other people are here you are now. Before we get into that, I should note that we were all just looking at the latest episode of podcast Magazine, which of course we all read regularly. That's the list I do like that to describe you as uh uh,

they they describe you in a few funny ways. Actually, yes they do. It's a list of the most powerful people in podcasting, Um, of course gotten me obviously all the greats. On page forty seven we have Robert Evans, who and they do say that he has also undertaken an ambitious daily series called It Could Happen Here that takes us on some of the weightiest issues and problems

facing policymakers. I will say this, if you are a policymaker and you have ever taken a policy suggestion for us, you have a legal obligation to like light your own office on fire with a molotov. I do like that Robert Evans don't listen to Chris do it policymakers. I do like that Robert Evans is right above the serial creators. So that's that is above Trevor Noah. I mean I don't, I literally don't think it's like it listed because there

is no way in in the list. Bin Shapiro is above Joe Rogan, and that's just not accurate to the to the to the to the way the industry functions. But it's a very silly. Listen. It's been fun reading through our latest issue of our favorite of our favorite podcast magazine, podcast magazine made by podcast News Daily, where you can get all your news about podcasts. The thing that I totally knew about for I've known about this clearly for longer than fifteen minutes. Actually, that's that's not true.

I've known about it for longer than eight minutes. Maybe twelve. Yeah, m hmm. It's an amazing photo. Was happy to get I was it was happy. Was happy to get in some fine reading today. Uh So, anyway, what's what's what's this? What's our episode actually about? It's a great question. It's a podcast power rating episode. Yeah, yeah, we're We're I

don't even have anywhere to go with that. No, the thing, the thing the episode is actually about is heat waves, and very specifically a heat wave in China that has been going on for Why this is day seven as we're recording, this is day seventy two. I think by the time Let's Go Out goes out, it will probably be like day seventy four. Um. Yeah, And this is and and incomparable heat wave. I'm just gonna read this

from Axios. The extreme heat and drought that has been most roasting a vast swath of southern China for at least seventy days straight has no parallel and modern record keeping in China or anywhere else around the world for that matter. Now, Okay, so that sounds bad, right, but it's actually worse than that because okay, so if if if you were to read that, you you might believe that this heat wave is just affecting southern China, and that's like not true. It's also affecting northern China. It

is affecting like most of China. It's like affecting almost like most people alive is nine million people, which is like Chris quick question, is that a lot? So? Okay, so if if if you rank all the countries in the world, right, the people affected by this heat wave would be the third largest country in the world, only behind China and India. Okay, so that's that's several people. It's it's fun, is it more people than the British people who have been logging onto post about it being

like five degrees and them like, I do love. One of the things that's keeping me alive during this ugly summer is like all of the photos of British people just getting as red as possible because they think the

tanning means burning of your body. It's hard for me to explain how difficult it was for me to comprehend that in California they won't serve you if you have your shirt off, because it is a national tradition in Britain to take off your shirt and get as much some note as possible, or if you're getting into a fist fight as well. Well, the number of folks pull their shirts off and fights in London. Yeah, it's it's part of a natural heritage. It's it's a beautiful country.

But please continue, Chris, Yeah, okay, So so you know, to get a sense of like the stakes of this, right, so okay, and like they just just the sheer scale of this because people is an amount of people that, like, we like is incomprehensible. Think that's a number that's too large. So okay. Sichuan Province, right, this is this is one province that is being affected by this. This province has eighty three million people in it. This is the entire

combined population of California, Texas, Indiana, and New York City. Um, here's here's in France twenty four about what's happening here. Since July this year, the province has faced the most extreme high temperatures the lowest rainfall in the corresponding period in history and the highest power load in history. Local authorities said, so it is hotter than it has ever been. It is drier than it has ever been except and

and this is the fun part. This is the similar similar was happening in Texas, and I think, yeah, well, I'm texts probably the best example of this. Okay, So it's really really really unbelievably dry, except for when there's giant flash floods and they've killed like twenty two people already have have died from the flash floods um the

different province. But yeah, it is unbelievably bleak. Um. One of the big things that's happening is that the Yanksy River is like the lowest anyone has ever seen it. Who's like, anyone alive has ever seen it. It's the lowest we have recorded measurements of because like I, this is everything is happening here, like there is no record

of it ever being this bad. And this is a real problem because particularly in such one because of this province's power is drawn from hydro electric and you know, it turns out it's it's really bad if the rivers that you are relying on for your hydro electric power are basically drying up, and like like there's there's pictures of like like you can go find pictures of this that there are pictures of the yankste that like it looks like a riverbed on Mars, like is just just

completely dry, Like it's like dry cragged stuff. It's really Again, this is just to kind of bring out how worldwide this problem is. We're seeing pieces of this everywhere else, right Like Texas, which is also in a horrible drought, has been having flash floods that have been disastrous recently because when it's been super dry for a while and you have these these heavy rains, it's it's a huge

fucking problem. And you've got riverbeds drying up all across the Southwest and things like Lake Mead getting low enough

that hydro electric power isn't going to be reliable. A huge chunk about like the the again, because it's important not to distract from like what's happening in China, but because it's important, like this is this is everybody, This is everybody, yes in India all over yeah yeah, and and you know, okay, so the seat wave and trying to, like, there's been very very little English coverage of it, and the thing that everyone focuses on is the fact that

like the power audergy, well, the the reduced ability to generate power and the fact that everyone has to turn on the air conditions and not like literally die is you know, it's wreaking havoc on China set of productive capacity since such one has like there there there's an enormous like industrial base there that you know, produces stuff

from everything from like Tesla to Apple. And this is what the sort of the anglephone media cares about, right, like everything that almost everything written about the heat wave is about its effect on like supply chain disruption, disruption to like semi conduct your production and like batteries for

electronic exs on and so forth. And I do not give a shit about this, um And the reason I don't give a shit about this is because the actual human impact of this is just sort of unfathomable, and the media outlets we're talking about it like don't seem

to be paying attention to it at all. Um So, while I was originally okay, so uh when I when I was originally writing part of this episode owed I went and like looked back at weather data for Shanghai and so okay, when I was running this on August, that day was a hundred and three in Shanghai, like two weeks before that it was a hundred and eleven. And I found out that from July to August, the like the high temperature, like the daily high temperature like

did not go below a hundred. On the one it finally rained and that dropped the temperature to merely four. I think either tomorrow today or tomorrow, I think it will go below ninety. This is all now, this is this is this is this is the temperature of the day. But after during the night aren't going below like seventy either, then a lot a lot of times are in the eighties or nineties, And and that the temperature at night does just for people who are not aware of like heat.

One of the things that's most important for like the survivability of a heat wave is whether or not it gets cool at night, because can survive pretty hot temperatures during the day. If you were able to cool your body down at night, it's one of the like one of the saving grace is the Pacific Northwest had during its seat waves. But yeah, and and this is this is a really like so Chunking, which is an enormous city. It has nine million people like regularly in the city.

It's Chunking. The city is also the municipal like government there, so there's a whole sort of complicate thing there. But like the municipality of Chunking is thirty two million people in it. Uh. They had a night I a couple I think a couple of weeks ago that was ninety four point eight degrees and which is again like that is a night that is significantly hotter than the average

summer day. And you know, I mean, like I want to go back to Shanghai for just like a second, because like Shanghai, I looked this, I I looked this up. Shanghai has not had a day where the high has been below eighty nine degrees for two consecutive days since mid June. It has been over ninety degrees every single day like with without two days back to back. It wasn't that hot since mid June um And you know, okay,

so like the this is having enormous effects. One of the big ones, the most noticeable ones is like basically like any excess power usage that a city can have is just getting shut off. There's been a lot of uh, there's been a lot of stuff where like businesses aren't allowed to open before like four pm because it's literally just too hot and you can't deal with electricity load and yeah, like and you know the other the other problem here again it's like it's not cooling off at night.

And if it's not cooling off at night, yeah, like that this is this is the thing that kills people. Um, and so well, the one of the things I want to talk about this is just like looking at this, looking at what this looks like on like a very very granular individual level, because this stuff also just sort of gets ignored. Um. There is a really horrible story in six Tone, which is like it's hard to describe them.

So six Tone is a state media outlet, but they're like I don't know, I guess you consider them like they're they're like the left wing state media outlet, which means that like they have somewhat more like editorial independence than like something like China Daily or like a lot of the other state run things, and they like they criticize the government a lot more than uh, most of

the sort of state run outlets. And they did this story about a migrant worker who was working at a freight depot about like he's this is this depos about like two and a half hours outside of Shanghai, and okay, so he's he's working and it is you know, it is. It is unbelievably hot. I think. I think the last day that he's working here, it's a hundred and four degrees and that night it only cooled off to four. Here's from six toned about sort of just the conditions

that people are working in here. On the hottest days, the temper side the carriages is at least fifty degrees celsius, which is a hundred and twenty two degrees fahrenheit, says you. He had Dong, a worker from Junk c and other Inland Province. It feels like you're on fire standing here. Around noon, his employer, an outsourcing agency, hands out heat stroke profession drugs, which he takes twice a day. At the freight depot. Managers sit in air conditioned rooms, but

workers like him rest under trees. The office is not for us, you says, now, okay. In theory, under Chinese law if it hits a hundred and four degrees, outdoor work is supposed to immediately stop, and you're supposed to move everyone indoors and like give them water and stuff. Because it turns out if you're working like a hard man or labor job outside and a hundred and four

you might die. But you know, you and you're a you're supposed to get paid heat breaks, and like, you know, as as anyone who is familiar with, for example, how American farm labor works, you know what happens about to happen next. Uh, it turns out that you know, okay, so you can take a break, but your employers won't pay you for it because like they don't know who's who, who's gonna who's gonna actually force them to do it. John, who's the work of the story is about, you know,

is extremely poor. His family is poor. He's on his support a family like back home because again he's he's a migrant worker and he you know, he can't he can't afford to take a break on his ship. So he doesn't die, and so he he literally collapses on the job and then gets back up and finishes his work, and he tries to cool down by like laying in his tiny, young, un air conditioned apartments with like an

electric fan pointed at his head. And he died on a bed that was held up by two broken cinder blocks, making maybe four dollars an hour. M Yeah, and you know, yeah, and I mean, you know, the thing about this, right is so in theory, he's working for for a state owned company, right, but you know, as as as we talked about like a little bit in that the sort of quote earlier, he's not actually working for the state

owned firm. What he's working for is one of these like labor agencies, which are these like sort of contracting things that allow you to actually get a job. But you know what what happens is the state of firms like outsourced of labor to the the two these contracting firms, and the contracting firms just like pick people up and bring them to the site. But this means he doesn't have a contract. And the problem is if you don't have if you don't have a contract, right, you can't

get any government benefits, you can't get insurance. And it turns out this matters because you know, China, China has like a payout right that they're supposed to pay to families when you know, if someone dies in the job, but you know, it's almost impossible to collect, especially if you don't have a contract. It is it is almost impossible to to get this thing, um, And you know, like this is this is how like most of the

Chinese economy works. The Chinese General Trong calculated that in Funk One, which is one of like China's big industrial cities, if companies actually paid out the insurance benefits they were legally required to pay out, it would cut corporate profit by and bankrupt like most of the company's working. Here's you know, the entire economy is based on this. And John's family drives like three d and fifty miles to the city where he died and starts like harassing government

officials and bosses for like literally weeks. They are trying to get people to like, hey, you know, will you pay out the insurance money you're legally required to pay us? And they refuse, like the local officials like won't even give them like surveillance footage of like what like of

him on the job dying. And you know, after like several weeks of his like four or five weeks, their finally able to get a sixth of the money they're supposed to get if you die, if someone dies under sort of like they're able to get a six of the money that you're supposed to get into Chinese law

if one of your family embraers dies into workplace. And you know, I'm focusing on this story because it's one of the few stories that we have directly about sort of the sheer magnitude of the suffering the heat wave is causing. And part of part of what's going on here is that we don't know what the death told

the heat wave is. There's there's nothing about it, right you You'll see a couple reports I'll talk about like two or three heat related death but it's it is literally impossible that there are that few deaths um there.

There there was a study in the journal Lancet that was looking at heat related deaths in China over the last thirty years, and it showed that like heat related deaths have died increased by a factor of four since and you know, so there was there was another heatwave in China that was like pretty bad in twenty nineteen, and they calculated that eight hundred people had died from heat related deaths Jesus, and you know and again that

that that heat wave heat wave was pretty bad. This heat wave, like it has just utterly destroyed every single record that heat waves set, Like it is in like its own universe of heat waves. So it has killed like probably by the end of this it will have killed like tens of thousands of people. Yep. And yeah,

which is really bleak. And you know what I'm I think like part of the reason also I wanted to talk about, like the specific story is that like you know, so the weather itself like is trying to like is enough to kill you, right, But like okay, so like this, like this kind of heat is survivable if like you know, if if if you're in a situation where you can be inside and where you can be hydrated and stuff

like that. But you know, hey, capitalism exists. I means you have to keep working during this ship and that's just going to keep killing people. UM. I wanted to sort of also look at sort of some of the historical heat waves to also to get a sense of how many people like probably died in this one. Um. I think like maybe the most famous heat wave like in in my lifetime, well until this one, I guess was that heat wave in Europe thousand three and that

one killed something like seventy people. Um, and there's a lot of very interesting stuff that we learned from this heat wave about what heat waves to you. It's sort

of in general. The United Nations, like in fine mental program, like released a report about this, and there's ulti really interesting stuff and I mean, okay, so the obvious one is that this has a massive effect on agriculture, which okay, yeah, Like you can ask a four year old and they will tell you that this is bad and this is happening. This is affecting China right now too, because um, this drought is hitting like right in the middle of a lot of kind of bread basket. So yeah, there's all

these sort of like downstream effects that we'll see later. Um. One of the other fun parts about this this is when she doesn't three heat wave. I'm just gonna read this quote. Massive alpine glaciers decreased by ten in two

thousand three. And yeah, okay, so you know what you're seeing here, right is this sort of sickler thing where each each heat wave, you know, does things like melt glaciers, right, and that makes the next heat wave worse because when when you when you lose glacier mass, you're you're you're you're losing surface area that reflects light, which increases level of warming. And this is sort of you know, this is one of those sort of feedback loops that where

we're dealing with. Um uh, you know another thing that we've been seeing a lot in the US had this like pretty badly. I mean, I guess like anyone who lives in the Pacific Northwest like understands this. There's just there are just fires constantly because it turns out that when it's really hot, things just lead on fire. Um. In the in the two three one there were twenty five thousand fires and they burned something like six fifty

thousand head acres of forest. And even the places it didn't burn, it causes sort of like severe, severe ecological damage to these forests because like the they the heat leaves trees, for example, like a lot weaker than're supposed to mean, this leaves in vulnerable to things like plagues and like into the waves of insects and this, you know, like everything that's happening here with these heat waves, like we weakens the environments that are supposed to be sort

of like mitigating the effects of climate change. Um we were so we also like on the sort of like human front, we we talked about how heat waves can knock out uh he waves can knock out hydro electric power. It turns out they can also knock out nuclear power plants because nuclear power plants rely on like dumping their cooling water back into rivers. Now there's like there's there's legal limits on how hot like the water you can

dump into these rivers is supposed to be. Because it turns out, you know if okay, if you have a bunch of boiling water into river is gonna kill everything

in it. But as the sort of cooling process like gets more difficult because the water levels are lower, you have to take power plants offline because otherwise you're going to just kill everything in the river when you when you're venting your sort of exhaust heat and into it got into three it gets bad enough that like a bunch of companies get exemptions right there, like Okay, it's an emergency, we can turn this on. We can like we can vent all this hot water back in the rivers.

But you know, you can only do this so many times before your revocably funk up the ecosystem of the river. And again this is this is this is the problem, right, Like you get you're getting into these feedback loops. You're destroying it, You're destroying the ecosystem, You're showing the river ecosystems. This also again has problems with like it produces. It's it's the river's ability to serve as a carbon sink. And but but it's like, you know, what, what choice

do you have? Right? Because you're energy the energy consumption heat waves massively increases because you need to cool yourself down, you need air conditioning, you need things like fans or people are going to die, and so like every single

one of these like heat waves just sort of spirals. Yeah, I guess the last thing I wanted to talk about is something that we haven't We talked about this in like the very very early episodes of the show, but like haven't talked about much sense, which is wet bulb temperature. Oh yes, yeah, so for for for people who don't remember what this is, um, I mean we're talking a little bit about it earlier and that when you can't cool down at night, like the big things about a

wet bulb temperature. But yeah, it's it's more complicated than that. Yeah, So, like I guess the basics of it is that, Okay, so your body like cools itself down by sweating, and when when the water evaporates off your skin, it cools you off and this is one of the big ways that your body sort of keeps your internal temperature under control. The problem basically is what if your sweat can't evaporate, and that that brings us to what what web bult

wet bulb temperature is here here's NASA quote. Web bulb wet bulb temperature is the lowest temperature to which an object can cool down when moisture evaporates from it. So what is measuring for us is how cool our bodies can actually get from sweating. The problem is that at a web bulb temperature for about nineties seven degrees fahrenheight, your sweatsofts evaporating and you can't cool yourself and this

kills you really really fast. Um. Here's NASA again talking to Colin Raymonds, who's from Who's I think he does climate stuff at the nasag Gempropulsion Laboratory. Once wet bulb temperature exceeds thirty five degrees celsia's or ninety five degrees fahrenheit, no amount of sweating or other adapt behavior is enough to lower your body to a safe operating temperature, said Raymond. Most of the time it's not a problem because the wet bulb temperature is usually five to tend degree celsius

blow body temperature, even in hot, humid places. But you know, it's a point of no here by the way, that like the wet bulb wet bowl temperature is like not the same thing as regular temperature. Um. It's it's measuring

something like that's different from how hot it is. And and it's worth noting that like the current heat waves, like they're really bad, but it hasn't really been hitting the web bowl temperature hasn't really been hitting the place places where they just are absolutely lethal and start killing

hundreds of thousands of people. But that is going to happen, right even even in sort of like if even even in even in the climate models where you know, we we keep emissions to like two degrees right, which which at this point is looking like some of the optimistic models like this stuff is going to happen in the ex third fifty years and unless something drastically changes, like

we're we're going to watch this happen. We're gonna watch country city seperatures, We're going to watch enormous numbers of people fall over dead. And yeah, this is um this this is where climate change is heading and it sucks. And the heat waves better that are hitting China, the heat waves are hitting India. The heat waves and we've seen here are like this is this is as goodes is going to get. It's just going to keep getting worse.

I guess I should back up one second and talk a bit about the Chinese heat wave, which is that, like the Chinese seat wave isn't just like it just a climate change thing. There's other stuff going on here. There's there's there's like a very specific like confluence of like weather phenomenon like the Indi India and stuff like that that like Cohen's had to coincide to make a

heat wave this bad. But the the problem is like that stuff is all going to happen again, and you know, so we're we're gonna we're gonna get like, yeah, we're gonna keep getting heat waves like this, and yeah unless we do something differently, Yeah, I mean we won't. I mean, well,

you know, we'll twiddle around the edges. Um. The bind administration snug some language into the inflation bill that might allow the federal government to regulate CEO to still after the Supreme Court said they couldn't, but maybe not, could you, Chris? Would you why why don't we send a message to the people in Shanghai and let him know that that'll that'll help you listen to the podcast, Yeah, policymakers who listen to the podcast, Um, I don't know like it.

This is it's one of those if we were to take if all of the policymakers who listened to our show were to take all of our advice immediately, um, and we were to transition every city away from being vehicle centered and like effectively cut our emissions by or more, we would still be locked into escalating heat waves like this all over the world for the rest of our natural lives because of the way the carbon cycle works. Um. Not that that wouldn't help in the long run, but

it would certainly not. Like that's one of the things that's so scary about this is we're all girding ourselves for the inevitability that this will just become more common and more devastating. So true, Um, and for everyone that has a hard time breathing, there's always always the hope that via geoengineering, we can just pump more pollution into the air to reflect more sunlight, which will increase whole

much of other diseases. You know, I watched the first seven seconds of the movie snow Piercer, and that does seem like an idea that would work. It's funny when when I was in school, I read like I read one of the first papers that was talking about this, and like the guy in the paper is like the opening of the paper is him literally going, this is a bad idea. We should only do this if there's

literally no other choice. And then also like, this is the thing we do for like ten years to buy us more time to deal with regular climate change, and then as the years have gone on and as nothing has happened, you just gotta watch like, well, yeah, there's a Barack Obama's favorite book, Ministry for the Future, which

is legitimately very good book. It's just funny that he likes it because it absolutely embraces terrorism in different killing politicians, it embraces sneaking into the house of oil and gas executives and murdering them in the night, as well as a wonky carbon crypto fucking investment portfolio. But like there's a lot of different ideas of that. Yeah, Like like a lot of the characters in that book would have

killed Obama. Like it's yes, it's very like um. But one of the things that book deals with, the inciting incident of that book is a horrible wet bulb um moment in India that kills I think it's millions of people and just that like a nightmare disaster um. And one of the things the Indian government does, as a result, against the express wishes of the global community, is start like essentially like an atmosphere exceeding program in order to

mitigate how bad the heat waves are. And like there's a bunch of consequences to that, And I kind of think one of the things that's most realistic about that book is as we have more ship like this happen, you will have nations on their own carry out climate mitigation efforts that could have serious effects on other countries because any of this stuff you do, like if you if you, if you seed clouds in the Southwest or whatever in order to increase rain, to raise the level

of Lake mead um, that will like you can't funk with the water cycle like that and not have impacts other places. Um. And And this is a thing that certainly global law, like like the international legal system is not ready to deal with um And it's certainly something that our media ecosystem is not ready to deal with. And it will happen. This is an inevitability in my opinion.

I mean, yeah, one of the things that we do want to talk more about is the reaction to this type of thing is going to be by capitalist countries, and like the climate Leviathan model is going to be too basically privatize the atmosphere and privatize the sky um and different ways that conrivatize sure, but pure hate in

your face their gear. But between all of like the corporate like space projects and then stuff with g engineering, it's just gonna be renting out sections of the atmosphere so that the people can pump things into uh to for whatever, for whatever kind of carbon neutral thing they want to do or pumping ship into the atmosphere is what got us into this problem and it's what's going

to get us out. So true. It's uh, it's kind of funny that in the U s H. I don't know if you saw this, but like this month which we were recording this in August, there was a discussion about how the water was going to be used in the Colorado River by the various states that I did. I did read that, Yeah, very depressing report. It's it's yeah, yeah, I just it ended with like basically each of them chest stumping at each other and big like no, funk you.

I'll take as much water as I want. I'm upstream of you. I think Utah were the ones particularly belligerent in that case. But it is the opposite of what we need to do. But here we are doing it. I was in Utah last this month looking at new golf courses being built by Fisher Towers sounded the desert

there and it's great. There's a fun Okay, So Andreas Mom's last book before he kind of went off the like weird Nicole leninist rails, it was called Fossil Capital, and he's a interesting argument that like one of the reasons that we got into this mess in the first place, one of the reasons like country companies started adopting coal was that even though coal was less efficient as like a source of electricity than having like water mills water

like having a succession of water mills going down the same river requires a bunch of different corporations to like coordinate with each other, and they don't want to do that. And because sort of like the laws around who controls rivers is really sort of unclear, like they were just like, now, screwed this where it's gonna use coal even though it's worse.

And the fun part about this is now we get to get this again with like river law, where it's like, oh hey, it turns out that capitalists and capitalist states are just utterly incapable of like sharing resources with each other, and they're just gonna try to section off increasing in large parts of it, which is going to go increasingly badly. Yeah. I mean, it's like one of the things, you're the failure to be able to imagine anything that exists outside

of a profit and loss kind of mentality. Um is one of the major problems that we have, like all over with this, like there's right now. One of the big stories coming out of the UK is that as a result of the war in Ukraine and gas prices, the cost of heating has risen fucking massively. This is a problem for all of Europe um. And a lot of families in the UK are looking at the numbers I've seen in any like four thousand and even six seven thousand pounds to heat their houses during the winter,

which is like ten to fifteen thousand real dollars. It's a lot of money, um, and it's substantially an excess of of what they have been paying in the past. And it's like that is enough. I mean, imagine yourself how many people live. I mean, I guess it's a small fraction of people listening who could afford an extra ten to twelve thousand dollars in bills this winter and not have it completely fucked their lives up. So obviously

people cannot pay for their heating um this winter. And like, if you can't pay a bill, you're not going to pay a bill, right, That's one of the laws of the iron laws of finance. Bills that can't be paid won't be paid. So the state is coming in, but the state is not. Again, these companies, basically all of these companies are would be essentially insolvent, like if things were allowed to proceed naturally. So the government's going to

have to do something. But the thing the government isn't going to do is like actually nationalize any of these heating companies. It's it's just going to like pump more tax anyway. It's it's it's it's the same thing. It's a failure to kind of imagine anything outside of this. Well, maybe if capitalism has broken down around this issue, this isn't an issue that should continue to be in the

hands of corporations. Yeah. Well, and but the fun part about this too is that like okay, it's like, well, okay, well okay, well nationalize this and that will save us. And then you look at like what do act what do most of the world's nationally owned corporations look like? And it's like, well, okay, so the government owns it the stock, but then it functions exactly like a normal company. And I'm not saying like the solution is is not

Sorry James, You're you're the actual Britain in this room. Yes, it's kind of funny because in Britain people are living on state pensions or a certain other like state programs, state disability and stuff. Get a winter fuel allowance normally, and the winter fuel allowance to schedule to go up like like less than a tenth of that that that amount that you just said would be the increased in the cost of heating, right, And it's still sort of

it's just so funny to see, like in theory. Britain has several political parties, all of them especially with labor under kiss DAMA like a clustered under a neoliberal consensus and kiss that like rather than considering doing anything, they are bickering over like how much of a pittance they

want to throw to poor people. I mean, yes, yeah, it's also very funny that Britain did build a desalination plant in the Thames Estuary um and forgot to account for the fact that due to it being an estuary, the river coming in and our h the levels of salt in the water would change and that would make the deceation. And it's fucking I think it's biodiesel fueled. It's just awesome, it's magnificent. Yeah, we've got great leaders over there and we don't need to change. Yeah, no,

you you you seem to. Whenever I think of countries that have their ship together, I think the UK um. Yeah, you've got to remember that Nazis used bicycles when you're considering your options for transport and climate change in the future. Deranged British tweets of the day. Yeah, I mean, hey, okay, look, look, the one the one very dim silver lining is that maybe this will cause the British the entire British political system to collapse. Happens like twice a year, right, No,

but but collapse here? Well, like, okay, here's the thing, right if if you have enough people who the government is trying to pay their bills, they start throwing Maltov's that stuff like this is a it's like this, this is actually a pretty reliable like one of the very reliable things that gets people to go fight police is like you suddenly increased the price of gas that that you don't need to drive or need to like heat

their houses. So maybe I don't know, but then British people will also be barking for us to send the troops against the people who are protesting. For the right, Yeah, with dignity. It's one thing we love to do. Yeah, it's it's a it's a it's a fun it's a fun country. Oh yeah, it's a fun tream. Oh man, ye all right? Well are we are? We? Are we good? Have we? Have we solved this one? For all the

policy makers who listened to our show? Yeah yeah, hit me up, fucking Lindsey Graham heat fan of the pod, Lindsey Graham. Yeah, Lindsey Graham is actually just voted to subsidize Molotov cocktail production. So thank you, thank you, Lindsay are are based fan of the policymakers who listen to our show. He must have been looking at the research. Mm hmmm. It's the only way, it's the only real way to stop climate change. You to make use of

fossil fuels cotails. Yeah. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe. It could happen. Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for it could happen here. Updated monthly at cool Zone Media dot com slash Sources. Thanks for listening.