It Could Happen Here Weekly 44

could happen here. I'm your host today. It's Sharine Um and I'm going to be flying solo for the next few episodes. We're going to be talking about Syria. Spoiler alert. I am Syrian and I think there's a lot of history and news about Syria that really goes under the radar and not a lot of people know about. So I thought it would be important to shed some light about how Syria became ruled by a dictatorship. Family. Um, the Assad family have destroyed Syria. Imagine a country being

run by the mafia. They're very powerful, very secretive, very very rich. There are no numbers that can illustrate the scale of Syria's loss and destruction. Literally, because the United Nations hasn't been able to calculate the death toll for years. So, as I mentioned, these episodes are going to be about Syria. The first two will be about how hop Is said rose to power, which has since led the Assad family to have control over Syria for more than half a century.

And then the one following that will be about his son Basha, who is the current dictator of Syria, and that one will have more topical information, maybe more like economic stuff versus historical information, which we're going to start with. But I think understanding the history of the Syrian government provides vital context to understanding the present. And there is a lot to cover here and a lot that I won't be able to get to, but hopefully we can

chip away at it. And this is a good semi coherent summary of how hof has climbed his way to the very top of Syrian authority. So the Assads in Arabic, it's as said, So apologize if I go back and forth between those two. But they're from Kardaja, originally a village in northwest Syria in the Syrial coastal mountains. The family name said goes back to seven when Nili Sulayman, who was Hafs father, changed his last name to which

is Arabic for the Lion. People say this is possibly in connection to his social standing as a local mediator and his political activities. All members of the extended Assad family stem from Ali sulai Men and his second wife, Nissa. The Assads are Shia Muslims, more specifically, of the Allohite sect. Allo Whites are a religious minority, and they initially opposed a United Syrian state because they thought their status as a religious minority would endanger them and Half as his father,

he shared this belief. After the French left Syria in ninety six, many Syrians mistrusted the Allo Whites because of their alignment with France. Half Has eventually left his Allo White village. Beginning his education at age nine in Latakia, which had a Sunni majority, he became the first of his family to attend high school, and while he was an education he lived in a poor, predominantly Allo White part of Attackia. To fit in, he approached political parties

that welcomed Allo Whites. These parties, which also embraced secularism, worthy Syrian Communist Party, the Syrian Social Nationalist Party, the s s MP and the Arab Bath Party. Bath is biath in Arabic, but we know it as both spell be a apostrophe a t h in English, and he joined this political party in ninety six. Some of his friends belonged to the s s NP and the Bath Party embraced a pan Arabist socialist ideology, and he proved

to be an asset to the party. He organized Bath students seals, and he carried out the party's message to poor sections of Attakia and two Alloway villages. He was opposed by the Muslim Brotherhood, which at the time allied itself with wealthy and conservative Muslim families. Asad's high school accommodated students from rich and poor families, and he was joined by poor, anti establishment Sunny Muslim youth from the Bath Party and confrontations with students from wealthy Brotherhood families.

He made many Sunny friends and some of whom later became his political allies. While he was still a teenager, Asad became increasingly prominent in the party as an organizer and a recruiter, and he was the head of his school's student affairs committee from to one and he was also the president of the Union of Syrian Students. During his political activism in school, he met many men who would later serve him when he became president. And reading about this, I mean, I'll be honest, and I learned

a lot even preparing for these episodes. It's so interesting because you read about this man and on the surface, he seems not too bad when he started out, Like his ideas aren't terrible. I think power eventually corrupts everybody, and I just have so many questions and thoughts about how someone becomes evil. I mean, that's such a blanket, like maybe like make believe way to describe someone. But the things that the Sad family eventually does is horrific.

And it's interesting to see where this man started as a child as a teenager. On one hand, it humanizes him. On the other hand, it just shows how much he had changed um and maybe he was always this way and it's just on paper doesn't seem so bad. I don't know, Sorry, Tangent, Let's continue. So after he graduated from high school, as Sad aspired to be a medical doctor, but his father could not pay for his studies, so instead, in nineteen fifty he decided to join the Syrian armed forces.

He entered the military Academy in Plumps and the Flying school in Aleppo, and then he graduated ninety five, after which he was commissioned a lieutenant of the Syrian Air Force. He married Anissa Mahluf in nineteen fifty seven, who is a distant relative of the powerful Mahlouf family. In ninety five, the Syria military split in a revolt against then President Adeb and Ski, which led Hashim to take power as president. He had been president before, and Syria was again under

civilian rule. So after ninety five a Tassi who in English both him and as shask A removed in front of their names, so you'll see just Atasi or so when I say those that's what I mean. It's just it's hard to break away when this is like the language in your head sometimes. But I gotta stop with these tangents. See this is my first cetle episode, and um, this is what you get. But after hold on the

country was increasingly shaky. As a result of the election, was replaced by Shukri Kwatli, who was president before Syria's independence from France. The Bath Party grew closer to the Communist Party at this time, but not because of shared ideology, but rather a shared opposition to the West. At the military academy, Assad met Mustafa Plas, which will be his

future Minister of Defense. Assad was then sent to Egypt for a further six months of training, and when Jamal Agda Nasid, president of Egypt nash analized the Suez Canal in fifty six, Syria feared retaliation from the United Kingdom and Assad flew in an air defense mission. He was among the Syrian pilots who flew to Cairo to show

Syria's commitment to Egypt. In fifty seven, as squadron commander, he was sent to the Soviet Union for training and flying m i G seventeens, which I looked up and it's a high subsonic fighter aircraft that was produced by the Soviet Union from fifty two onward and operated by air forces internationally. The more you know, but essentially he went to the Soviet Union to train and flying these things for ten months. Let's go back to fifty eight. Nope,

we're not going back, We're going forward. In Syria and Egypt formed the United Arab Republic, separating themselves from Iraq, Iran, and Pakistan and Turkey. In Syria and Egypt formed the United Arab Republic you a R, separating themselves from Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, and Turkey, and these countries were aligned with the United Kingdom. This pact led to the rejection of communist influence in

favor of Egyptian control over Syria. All Syrian political parties, including the Bath Party, were dissolved and senior officers, especially those who had supported the Communists, were dismissed from the Syrian armed forces. Assad however, remained in the army and quickly rose through the ranks. After reaching the rank of captain, he was transferred to Egypt, continuing to the military education with the future President of Egypt, Hosta Ni Mubadak. However,

Assad was not content with a professional military career. He viewed it merely as a gateway to a career in politics a k A power. After the creation of the u a R, the Bath Party experienced a crisis for which several of its members, mostly young members, blamed the party leader, who at the time was Michel A Flock. He was a Syrian philosopher and sociology just In an Arab nationalist, and his ideas played a significant role in

the development of Batheism and its political movement. He's considered by several both fists to be the principal founder of both Fist thought. So. He had some opposition, however, because after the creation of the a R there was some unrest to resurrect the Syrian national branch of the party, Assad joined others in establishing the Military Committee in fifty seven and fifty eight. Assad rose to a dominant position in the Military Committee, which mitigated his transfer to Egypt.

After Syria left the EU a R in September of sixty one, Assad other Bothist officers were removed from the military by the new government in Damascus, and he was given a minor clerical position at the Ministry of Transport. Asad played a minor role in the failed nineteen sixty two military coup, for which he was jailed in Lebanon

and then later repatriated. That year, Michel A Flock, the Bath Party leader, convened the fifth National Congress of the Bath Party, where he was reelected as the Secretary General of the National Command, and then he ordered the re establishment of the party's Syrian regional branch. There there's a lot of congresses, there's a lot of branches, there's a lot of committees. Uh. It gets really confusing, just these men shutting down and then re igniting these things. So

bear with me here. At this congress, the Military Committee established contacts with a Fluk and the civilian leadership. The committee requested permission to cease power by force, and a Fleck agreed to this conspiracy. After the success of the Iraqi coup led by the Bath Party's Iraqi regional branch, the Military Committee hastily convened to launch their own Bathist military coup in March of nineteen sixty three against President Nasim el Lets, which Assad helped plan. He helped plan

this coup. During this coup, he led a small group to capture the Dumayette Air Base, about twenty five miles north of Damascus. Assad's group was the only one that encountered resistance. Some planes at the base were ordered to bomb the conspirators, and because of this, Assad hurried to reach the base before dawn because the sevente armored brigades surrender took longer than anticipated. However, Assad arrived there in broad daylight. When Assad threatened the base commander with shelling,

the commander negotiated a surrender. Later, Assad claimed that the base could have easily withstood his forces, so his bluff worked, and this garnered him a lot of respect. Not long after Assad's election to the regional command, the military Committee ordered him to strengthen the committee's position in the military establishment.

In doing so, Assad may have received the most important job of all, because his primary goal was to end factionalism in the Syrian military and make it a Bath monopoly. He said he had to create a ideological army to help with this task. He recruited Zeki Arsuzi, who was the person who actually indirectly inspired him to join the Bath party in the first place. When he was young.

Arsuzi accompanied us said on tours of military camps, where Arsuzi lectured the soldiers on Bathist thought and gratitude for his work, Asad gave Arsuzi a government pension, and Assad continued his bathification of the military by appointing loyal officers to keep positions and ensuring that the political education of the troops was not neglected. He demonstrated his skill as a logistical leader during this period, and he was said to have a highly intelligent mastery of detail, which garnered

him a lot of respect. And I want to make this clear. I talked to my mom a bit about this and doing this research, and has said was very smart. He was known as a very smart man. He knew what he was doing at every turn, despite what seems like it's like he this fell into his lap or like, uh, later you'll see that the president he he overthrew, had no idea he had didn't see him as a threat. But but I mean before and after he took power,

he was known to be very cunning. And so yeah, I just think that's an important little um being to take note of. Even in school, they were saying that he was an excellent student. So he has a plan, I think for most of this. But let's take a little break and we'll be right back to finish this up.

Well this part, I mean, okay, whatever, I'm sorry, we're back. Wow. Okay. So, after he had been bathifying the military, he was promoted to major and then to lieutenant colonel, and by the end of nineteen sixty four, he was in charge of the Syrian Air Force as the Air Force Commander Assad gave privileges to Air Force officer, and he appointed his confidence to senior and sensitive positions, and he established an

efficient intelligence network. Air Force intelligence, under the command of Muhammad al Huli, became independent of Syria's other intelligence organizations and received assignments beyond Air Force jurisdiction. Assad prepared himself for an active role in the power struggles that were soon to come. As I said, he's cunning, he knows what he's doing in the aftermath of the nineteen sixty

three coup. At the first Regional Congress, Assad was elected to the Syrian Regional Command, the highest decision making body in the Syrian regional branch. It's so confusing, I can't keep track. And while this was not a leadership role, it was Assad's first appearance in national politics, which is a significant thing to point out because, as you'll see, it only grows. During the nineteen sixty four Hamma riot,

Assad voted to suppress the uprising violently if needed. This decision to suppress the Hamma Raya led to conflict within the military Committee, which I'm going to skip over because it's a more clusterfucky than ever. But ultimately in sixty five the eighth National Congress. During this Assad was elected to the National Command, the party's highest decision making body. I know, I just said that about something else, but that was about the Syrian Regional Branch. There are a

lot of parties and commands and branches and committees. As I said, just know that it's a group of men probably that just make decisions. But he was elected to this highest making body, this this party of people, and it said that asad abhorred a fluck, the party leader of the Bathist Party, Assad considered a fluck, a autocrat and a rightist, accusing him of ditching the party by

ordering the dissolution of the Syrian Regional Branch. In fifty eight, in response to the eminent coup that was about to happen that Assad knew was going to happen, he left for London. In the nineteen sixty six Syrian coup, the Military Committee overthrew the National Command. The coup led to a permanent split in the bath movement and the advent of neo Bathism, as well as the establishment of two centers of the International Bathist Movement, one Iraqi and the

other Syrian dominated. After the coup, Assad was appointed Minister of Defense. This was his first cabinet post, but despite his title, he actually had little power in the government

and took more orders than he gave. Salafaded, who helped Assad established the Military Committee years prior, was the undisputed leader at the time, and he opted to remain in the office of Assistant Regional Secretary of the Syrian Regional Command instead of taking executive office, which had historically been held by sunnies Jaded, trying to establish his authority, focused on civilian issues and gave Assad de facto control of

a Syrian military, considering him no threat at all. During the failed coup of late nineteen sixty six, Salim Hathum tried to overthrow Jadid's government. Hathum was a military officer and he felt snubbed when he was not appointed to the Regional Command after the sixty six coup, and he sought revenge and the return to power of Hammoud and Shuffi, who was the first regional secretary of the Regional Command. After the Syrian regional Branches re establishment is sixty three.

Oh my god, so many branches and everything. I'm just team just design on one group. Anyway, when Jaded, they see in the regional command member Jama, visited the city of Sueeda, the forces loyal to Hatum surrounded the city and they captured them. The city's Drews leaders forbade the murder of their guests and demanded the hat Um wait. So Jaded and the others were placed under house arrest, with Hatoum planning to kill them at his first opportunity

because he wanted revenge. When word of the mutiny spread to the Ministry of Defense a Assad, Assad ordered the seventieth Armored Brigade to the city of Sueida. By this time, Hatum, who was a Drew's, knew that a Sad would order the bombardment of Sueida, which was a Druis dominated city, if Hatum did not accept Assad's demands. So this led to Hattum and his supporters to flee to Jordan's eventually,

where they were given asylum. But due to his prompt action and his protection of Jadid and the other members that were captured, a Sad earned Jadid's gratitude after this incident. So I know, I just casually mentioned this word a minute ago, and so just to the people that aren't aware of what it means. No, again, a lot more to delve into than what I'm just going to say

right now. But Drew's are members of an Arabic speaking ethno religious group originate in Western Asia there largely in Lebanon and Syria now and they originally developed out of Shia Islam. Even though most Drewis members are most Drews rather do not identify as Muslim. They practiced their own religion that is called Drusism. I've been trying to say

that word for a long time. Daniel cut out me, saying in a bunch of times, um, I apologize that I probably mispronounced it, But the point is they practiced their own sect of religion that originated from the Shia Islamic sect way back when. But at this point they're their own religious group. So moving on that, I just wanted to shed light on that word in case people

didn't know. Back to Syria. So, after this incident took place and after Assad basically came to the rescue, Jadid had a lot of gratitude for him, and continuing in the aftermath of the sixty six coup attempt, Assad and Jadeed purge the party's military organization ASAD removed and estimated a four hundred officers, and this was Syria's largest military

purge to date. But the purges which began when the Both Party took power in sixty three had left the military week and as a result, when the Six Day War broke out, Syria had no chance of victory. I feel like this is maybe a good place to say goodbye for the day. I thought it would be more digestible if these episodes were shorter instead of being an epic tale that could run over an hour. But yeah, let's say goodbye. This is Sharene, this is it could

happen here? Here you tomorrow, talk to you tomorrow. Why do I have this job? Okay, goodbye? Wow, we're back. Um, this is Sharine and this is it can happen. That's all I'm in the name of podcast. This is it could happen here. I'm so sorry. Um. But last episode, Um, we talked about Syria and the history of how happsite said eventually came into power and how he subsequently let his family become dictators of this country for over half

a century and how they've destroyed it. But we are still in the sixties right now, So let's just continue from where we left off. UH. Last time, I had just ended mentioning the Sixth Day War, UH, and how Syria was defeated in the Sixth Day War. This is a topic that should be episodes all on its own, but just very very roughly summarize the Sixth Day War as it's called. It's also called the nineties sixty seven

war and the June War. It's interesting because Israeli's call it the sixth Day War, and that's become the term that everyone uses, but differing terms for differing people, I suppose. But essentially, on June five, nineteen sixty seven, just three weeks after it marked the nineteenth anniversary of its founding, Israel went to war with the armies of Egypt, Syria and Jordan's and defeated them essentially, very very rough summary. And this led to Israel capturing a k a, stealing

the goal and heights from Syria. And the roots of this war go all the way back to the forties, and there are moment in history that led up to this moment, but it was a huge turning point in Middle Eastern history and the consequences of it are still felt today across the region. And the outcome of this war basically altered the map of the Middle East for the foreseeable future, and it's further blocked this path to

any kind of potential piece between Israel and Palestine. Uh, and it just redrew the landscape of this conflict and expanded Israel's territorial claims and military dominance in the region. Um. They gained a lot of territory during this war and had the help of the U N behind them, So yeah, it's it was not good for Arab countries so much more to get into their But this war, essentially, when

we're talking about his Syrian history, changed everything. And I mentioned earlier in the last episode that when the Bath Party took power in sixty three, there was some more pershing of the Syrian military and Assad removed about four hundred officers, which was the largest purge to date. But this had left their military week and obviously did not help them in this June war. But uh, yeah, there's so much more there. I will try to get into that,

lady or another time. But the Arab defeat in this June war um led to Israel stealing the goal in heights from Syria, and this provoked a furious quarrel among Syria's leadership. The civilian leadership blamed military incompetence, and the military responded by criticizing the civilian leadership, which was led by Salashadid, who was the person that was ruling the country.

He had the most power. At this point, several high ranking party members demanded that haf Said resign and an attempt was made to vote him out of the regional command. This motion was defeated by one vote, and this man was Karim Gendi, who the anti Assad members. They were hoping that he would succeed Assad as Defense minister, but he became the deciding vote, and he said he did so in a comradely gesture. Remember this name. He will come back. But yes, j D made it so Assad

wasn't voted out. During the end of the war, Hafuz was approached by dissident Syrian military officers who out the government, but at the time he actually refused because he believed a coup during that time would have helped Israel, not Syria, which is very interesting because he eventually took power by a coup, but he refused our first because of the timing being wrong. Again, I think this just demonstrates his

unfortunately high intelligence for someone so bad. Anyway, as I mentioned, this war was a turning point, and it was also a turning point for as said, and the Boss Syria movement in general. It soon began a power struggle with Jadid for control over the country. Until then, Asad hadn't really shown ambition for high office, and he aroused little suspicion in others, no one really saw him as a threat.

From the nineteen three Syrian coup to the war in sixty seven, Assad did not play a leading role in politics, and he was usually overshadowed by his contemporaries. Patrick Seal was a British journalist and an author who specialized in the Middle East, and he wrote several books about the Assad family and Syria. And he said the Hafs was apparently content to be a solid member of the team

without the aspiration to become number one. He also interviewed haf Is at one point, so he had a lot of good information this Patrick Seal, which I'll mentioned throughout. So although Jadid was slow to see Assad's threat, and although Assad didn't appear like he wanted power from the outside. Shortly after the war, Assad began developing a network in the military and promoted friends and close relatives to high positions.

Assad believed that Syria's defeat in the June War was Jadid's fault and that the accusations against himself were unjust. By this time, Jadid had total control of the regional Command, whose members supported his policies, but Asad and Jaded began to differ on policy. Asad believed that Jadid's policy of a people's war and armed guerrilla strategy and class struggle had failed Syria, undermining its position. Although Jaded continued to champion the concept of a people's war even after the

June War, Assad opposed it. He felt that the Palestinian guerilla fighters had been given too much autonomy and their raiding of Israel had made the war worse for the Arab's fighting. Jaded also had broken diplomatic relations with countries he deemed reactionary, like Saudi Arabia and Jordan's, and because of this, Syria did not receive aid from other Arab countries. While Jadid and his supporters prioritize socialism and the internal

revolution in quotes. Assad wanted the leadership to focus on foreign polo see and the containment of Israel. The Bath Party was divided over several issues, such as how the government could best use Syria's limited resources, the ideal relationship between the party and the people, the organization of the party,

and whether the class struggle should end. The conflict between a Sad and Jadid became the talk of the army and the party, with a quote duality of power noted between them by the fourth Regional Congress and the tenth National Congress in September and October sixty eight. Assad had extended his grip on the army and Jadid still controlled the party at both congresses, as Sad was outvoted on

most issues and his arguments were firmly rejected. The military's involvement in party politics was unpopular with the rank and file. As the gulf between Assad and Jadeed widened, the civilian and military party bodies were forbidden to contact each other.

Despite this, Assad was winning the race to accumulate power munif that is, as who was ousted in the nineteen sixty six Syrian coup, noted that Jadid's fatal mistake was to attempt to govern the army through the party, because Syria will always have their government is the military essentially,

is what I'm trying to say. Anyway, while Assad had taken control of the armed forces through his position as Minister of Defense, Jaded still controlled the security and intelligence sectors through Abdukadima gen D, who was the head of the National Security Bureau Gen D, who was a paranoid cruel man. He was feared throughout Syria, especially later in his life. In February of nineteen sixty nine, the Sad Jaded conflict erupted and violent clashes through their respective prodigies.

There wasn't a fact that said who is a Sad brother and he was a high ranking military commander and a Gen D. So agen D was the protege of ja D and a Sad brother he thought was his protege. So to say, the reason for the violence was, in fact, said suspicion that Agendi was planning an attempt on his brother Hapfus's life. The suspected assassin was interrogated and eventually confessed under torture acting on this information. The fact argued that unless agen D was removed from his post that

he and his brother were in danger. Okay, let's take a break, B R B. Listen to this and we're back. Wow. Okay, let's continue. From the twenty to February. In nineteen sixty nine, the A SAD Brothers initiated quote something just short of a coup. Under a SAD authority, tanks were moved into Damascus and the staffs of two party newspapers, the Bath and Athota, as well as radio station in Damascus and Boat were replaced by A SAD loyalists the Takia and Tartus,

which are two alo white dominated cities. They saw fierce scuffles, ending with the overthrow of Jade's supporters from local posts. Shortly afterwards, a wave of arrests and Gen D loyalists began. On March two, after a telephone argument with the head of military intelligence, Al Duba, it is said that a Gen D committed suicide. When I mentioned this to my mom, she said, well, that's what they say, because originally I'm reading this being like, okay, history obviously, I actually remember

that there's always someone that writes the history. Um, So just pointing that out there because she put that little nugget of information in my head. But as far as we're concerned, in this summary, it is said that Jendi committed suicide after his loyalists began to be arrested and they were just continuing violence between his side, and said so this led to a Sad now being in control. However, he hesitated to push his advantage. Jaded continued to rule

Syria and the regional command was unchanged. However, a SAD influenced Jaded to moderate his policies. Class struggle was muted, criticism of reactionary tendencies of other Arab states ceased, Some political prisoners were freed, A coalition of government was formed where the Bath Party was in control, and the Eastern Front, supported by an Assad, was formed with Iraq and Jordan's.

Jaded's isolationist policies were curtailed, and Syria re established diplomatic relations with many of its foes, which is what a SAD wanted. And while Assad had been in de facto command of Syrian policies since nineteen sixty nine, Jaded and his supporters still held the trappings of power. After attending Jamad Obtnasair's funeral, in Egypt, he was the President of Egypt. A Sad return to Syria for the emergency National Congress, where a Sad was condemned by Jadid and his supporters,

who still made out the majority of the party's delegates. However, before attending the congress, A Sad ordered his loyal troops to surround the building housing the meeting. Again, this guy thinks ahead, he's too smart. I hate him. He's dead those or whatever, I still hate you. So, as he's being criticized, and as he's being condemned, he has troops

surrounding this building. And so the criticism of a Sad's political position continued, but it had a defeatist tone, with the majority of delegates believing that they have lost the battle. And even though a Sad was eventually stripped of his government post at the congress, these acts had little practical significance. When the National Congress ended on November twelfth, nineteen seventy, A Sad ordered loyalists to arrest leading members of Jadeed's government.

Although many mid level officials were offered posts in Syrian embassies and abroad, Jadid refused, saying if I ever take power, you will be dragged through the streets until you die. A Sad imprisoned Jaded in Medsday prison until his death. Despite the intense clusterfuck of everything that preceded this surprise, office's coup was actually calm and bloodless. When he eventually had his coup to take power and succeeded, the only evidence of change to the outside world was the disappearance

of newspapers, radio stations, and television stations. A temporary regional command was soon established, and on November sixteenth of nineteen seventy the new government published its first decree. So only in a matter of days a lot can happen man. According to Patrick Seal, a Sad's rule quote began with an immediate considerable advantage. The gun from it he displaced was so detested that any alternative came as a relief.

He first tried to establish national unity, which he felt had been lost under the leadership of a flock and Jadid. Assad differed from his predecessor at the outset, visiting local villages and hearing citizen complaints. The Syrian people felt that Assad's rise to power would maybe lead to change, and although a Sad didn't democratize the country. He eased the government's repressive policies at the time. He cut prices for basic food stuffs fift which won him support from ordinary citizens.

Jadeed's security services were purged and some military criminal investigative powers were transferred to the police. In the confiscation of goods under Jadid was reversed. Restrictions on travel and trade with Lebanon were eased, and Assad encouraged growth in the private sector. While Assad supported most of Jadeed's policies to begin with, he proved to be more pragmatic after he came to power. Let's take a little break here, when we right back to wrap this little history lesson up,

and then you're free of me for the day. Okay, So we're back. Um. Before the break, we're talking about as Sad coming into power, and how his policies differed from Jadid's, and how he made an effort to differentiate himself. However, most of Jade's supporters they faced a choice either continue working for the bath government under a Sad or face repression. Assad had made it clear previously from the beginning that

there would be no second chances. In his words, however, in late nineteen seventy, he recruited support from the Bathist Old Guard, who had supported a Flox leadership during the

nineteen sixty three ninety six power struggle. An estimated two thousand former Baathists rejoined the party after hearing Asad's appeal at the eleventh National Congress, A Sad assured party members that his leadership with a radical change from that of Jadid, and he would implement a quote corrective movement to return Syria to the true nationalist socialist line. A Sad turned the presidency, which had been known simply as quote head

of state under Jadid, into a position of power. During his rule, as the president became the main source of initiative in the government, His personality, values, strengths and weaknesses became decisive for his direction and stability. A Sad institutionalized a system where he had the final say, which weakened the powers of the collegial institutions of the party and state,

as fidelity to the leader replaced ideological conviction. Later in his presidency, corruption became widespread, the state sponsored cult of personality became pervasive, and as Assad's authorities strengthened, he became the sole symbol of the government. And it sounds normal now, I guess when you think of like a dictator's face being plastered over buildings and stuff. But it was very much like that in Syria, and it still is as far as the Shire is concerned. But with Hafez, I mean,

his image was plastered everywhere. You couldn't really escape it. He was the symbol of the Syrian government. And while Assad did not rule alone, he increasingly had the last word. None of the political elite would question a decision of his, and those who did were dismissed, removed from their positions, and stripped of their power. When Assad came to power, he increased the Allohite dominance of the security and intelligence sectors to a near monopoly. The coercive framework was under

his control, weakening the state and party. The leading figures of the Allo White dominated security system had family connections, but the fact that I said, for example, controlled the Struggle Company as his brother and then Asad's son in law, Aidan Macluf was his second in command as commander of the Presidential Guard. Asad controlled the military through the Allowhites, and the Allowhites, with their high status, appointed and promoted

base on their kinship and favor rather than professional respect. Therefore, an Allo White elite emerged from these policies with a sad and full control of the military and the Allo Whites holding all the power, which is very interesting if you think back to the beginning of our first episode where I mentioned that the Allo Whites are a religious minority and originally didn't have a lot of power in the government, and through half Assets coming into power, the

Allo Whites are suddenly elite and in control, and it's a huge flip from what it was decades prior. However, when Assade began pursuing a policy of economic liberalization, the state bureaucracy began to use their positions for personal gain. The state gave implementation rights to QUOTE much of its development program to foreign firms and contractors, fueling a growing linkage between the state and private capital. Basically, what ensued was a huge bike in corruption. The channeling of external

money through the state to private enterprises. Quote created growing opportunities for state elites self enrichment through corrupt manipulation of state market interchanges. Besides outright embezzlement, webs of shared interests in commissions and kickbacks grew between high officials, politicians, and

business interests. The Alla white military security establishment got the greatest share of the money, obviously, and the bath Party and its leader is ruled a new class, defending their interests instead of those of the peasants and workers who they were supposed to represent. This, coupled with growing Sunny disillusionment with the regime's mixture of Sadism, rural and secretary and favoritism, corruption and u inequalities, fueled the growth of

the Islamic movement. Because of this, the Muslim Brotherhood of Syria became the vanguard of anti Bathist forces. The Brotherhood had historically been a vehicle for moderate Islam during its introduction to the Syrian political scene during the nineteen sixties under the leadership of Mustafa A. Sabai. The Brotherhood had historically been a vehicle for moderate Islam during its introduction

to the Syrian political scene during the nineteen sixties. After Sabai's imprisonment and under Isam and Althotas leadership, the Brotherhood developed into the ideological antithesis of Bathist rule. Because of their organizational capabilities, the Muslim Brotherhood grew tenfold from nine to nineteen seventy eight. The Islamic Uprising began in the mid to late nineteen seventies with attacks on prominent members

of the bath A Lawai elite. As the conflict worsened, a debate began in the party between hardliners represented by Rafa and bath liberals represented by Mahmoud and a Yubi. The seventh Regional Congress in nineteen eighty was held in

an atmosphere of crisis. Party leadership, with the exception of Assad and his proteges, were criticized severely by the party delegates, who called for an anti corruption campaign, a new clean government, curtailing the powers of a military security apparatus, and political liberalization. The Sunni middle class and the radical left, believing that Baptist rule could be overthrown with an uprising, began collaborating

with the Islamists. And I mean although they are called the Islamists, obviously they do not represent the entirety of Islam uh. Similar to Christian radical groups um hold onto the name Christian, they don't represent the entirety of Christianity. YadA YadA, YadA, bad badh blah. And although the word Islam is in the word Islamists. I wanted to draw attention to the fact that Islamism is not a form of the Muslim faith or an expression of Muslim piety.

It is rather a political ideology that strives to derive ttimacy from Islam. So it's about political strategies that believe in a revival or a return to authentic and quotes Islamic practice in its totality. So it's a political ideology, not necessarily a religion. Um. I just want you guys to be aware of that, because I think a lot of people don't understand what that means. Regardless believing they

had the upper hand in the conflict. Beginning in nineteen eighty, the Islamists began a series of campaigns against government installations in Aleppo. The attacks became urban guerrilla warfare. The government began to lose control in the city. Those affected by Bathist repression began to rally behind the insurgents. The bath Party co founder Salahadin supported the uprising, rallying the old anti military Bathist together. The increasing threat to the government's

survival strengthened the herdliners, who favored repression over concessions. Security forces began to purge all state party and social institutions in Syria and were sent to the northern provinces to quell the uprising. When this failed, hardliners began accusing the United States of fomenting and provoking the uprising and called

for the reinstatement of quote revolutionary vigilance. After a failed attempt on a Sad's life in June of nineteen eighty, the government began responding to the uprising with state terrorism under a fat said. The Islamic prisoners at the Tadmore Prison were massacred. Membership in the Muslim Brotherhood became a capital offense, and the government sent a death squad to kill bad and others former wife. The military court began

condemning captured militants, which sometimes degenerated into indiscriminate killings. Little care was taken to distinguish Muslim Brotherhood hardliners from their passive supporters, and violence was met with violence. So essentially, this just led the Asad regime too murder a bunch of people, innocent, guilty all of the above. So yeah. One of the many instances where the Assad regime was

extremely violent and engaged in horrific state terrorism. So we're I'm wrapping up the end of this one, and um, there's going to be a bit of crossover over this next event in the following episode. But the final most atrocious violence conducted by the Syrian government during this time was the Hamma massacre, which took place in February, when the government crushed the uprising. Helicopter, gunships, bulldozers, and artillery

bombardment raised the city, killing thousands of people. The bath government withstood the uprising, and it made Syria more totalitarian than ever before, strengthening Assad's position as the undisputed leader of Syria. That is where I'm going to wrap up for the day. I did want to I don't know, maybe just like set the tone for what hoffs is A rule was like. I talked to my mom a bit about this when I was preparing to record these, and she reminded me of a bunch of things that

I had forgotten about. One was that I was in Syria when Hoffas was president when I was younger, and I remember everyone being terrified to speak any kind of negative thing or even anything to each other. No one would dare speak a word on the phone definitely not allowed to each other. There were all these whispers of the walls could hear you. No one trusted anybody. My mother described it as a culture of fear, and it was that's how Hoffus ruled. It was through fear, through

like utter terror. And I just had forgotten a bunch of details about what I remember growing up, and like the phone being this, like you just assume it was always app you assume anyone could always hear you. You can't trust anybody because you don't know what someone will do with the information. And there was a bit more that she mentioned that I wanted to just highlight that I didn't know where to incorporate in that timeline. But when the Iran Iraq war happened, it was between eight

and eight um Haffas sided with Iran. So after this uh and during everything was about supporting Iran, So all Syrian factories, all the food, it was all dedicated to war efforts to support Iran. My older sister at the time was a really picky eater, and apparently one of the only things she ate were bananas, and my mom remembers that she couldn't find even a banana anywhere, like everything was hard to come by. It was really desperate times even after the war ended, and every election, in

quotes was fraudulent. It was a joke. My grandmother Um worked as a school teacher in Syria. You and um, teachers are a civic position there really, like most positions are governmental positions. And my grandma during these elections would throw out the nose and only include the yes is because the only option was yes or no if he wanted to continuef as his rule or not, those are the only two options. And she told us that the nose were discarded immediately and the only ones that were

kept were the yesses. And eventually there was an election that determined that Haffas and his family would be in power forever and as it was a phrase that used, and essentially this means until death or forever, you will be in power. It does have his name in their but it implies his whole family. So it's just they gave him power forever. That is literally what that means.

And yeah, I think, um, there's so much more to talk about here, and I would love for my mom to just give me more information about this that I can share eventually. There's just so much. And this episode is already getting kind of long, so I'm gonna wrap

it up here. In the next episode, we'll be talking about but Shad and how he became the dictator of Syria and how he was even meant to be the president of Syria, and yeah, a lot of interesting history that leads to some topical information that I think is important. So see you there if you want to. But wow, it's me again. Uh, this is Sharia. This is also

it could happen here. We've been talking about Syria for the last few episodes and we're going to continue and I'm just gonna jump right in because there's a lot Okay, So this is a continuation about Syria and the terrible family that controls it, the assets. As I mentioned in the previous episodes, Uh, the Assads have destroyed Syria and the death toll that they are responsible for is literally incalculable by the UN but it's said to be nearing

half a million people, which is a lot of people. So. Sam Dagger is an American Lebanese journalist and author who has lived and worked in the Middle East for more than sixteen years. He was based in Damascus in the early years of the current war before the government kicked him out in but he used his access to write about the inside story of the Sad family. He has a book titled A sad Or We Burned the Country,

which I admittedly have not read. It's like five hundre pages, but I did pull a lot of info from the book and interviews that he's done about it, mostly in regards to the economic stuff that we'll get into later, but it was very helpful resource. When Dagger was in Syria, he saw this phrase A sad Or reburned the country,

which is the title of his book. All over the towns and neighborhoods that had been taken over by the regime graffiti it on walls, probably by loyalists or government militias or whatever, or as people that love him barf. And in this case they're talking about the shadow I said, who is the son of the person we were talking about previously said, but it essentially also includes the entire family.

They are in power forever, and the Asad regime routinely takes over deserted, destroyed areas, and these government militias come in and loot the area until it's nothing but rubble littered by things that are left behind as people are fleeing, and things that these loyalists find useless, like teddy bears and personal items that actually tell a really devastating story

about the lives that used to occupy that space. Because these loyalists, these sad obsessed freaks, they take everything that they deem worth looting, even things like tiles and doors, So you're left with these ghost towns. Literally figuratively, the phrase is sad or reburned the country means exactly what it says. It means that the Shadow and his family will remain in power or else they will burn the country to the ground and burn everyone who opposes the

Assad regime along with it. And although the shadowst has now been in power for twenty two years, he was actually never meant to be in power. His father had appointed himself as president in ninety one after overthrowing the prior government through military coup. The Shadow s has succeeded his father in two thousand after his father's death, and it continued their famili's hold on Syria and his people.

Was a very significant year. Not only was it the year I was born and that's why, but Also, the Soviet Union collapsed and the Berlin Wall fell and dictatorships were crumbling. The Soviet Union was seen as the main supporter or guardian of the Sad regime, but in it didn't exist anymore. So the a Sad regime was suddenly

in trouble. Its priority was to present an image of reform and repackaged itself so half as Said, could hand down the power to his eldest son, Bassett said Um and Bassett was an army officer who was essentially brought up to eventually fill this role taking over for his father, and his military background fit the image of this traditional leader of the Arab world because so many of these leaders took over by military coup or had a background

of military. But before we get into all of that, let's go back in time a little bit and talk about what went down. So a sort of succession crisis was triggered in November three when haf Said, a diabetic, had a heart attack on November after visiting his brother

in a hospital. The fact that Said reportedly announced his candidacy for president, he did not believe that his brother would be able to continue ruling the country after to this, when he did not receive support from Assad's inner circle. He made lavish promises to win them over, but apparently some believe that a Fact had been as first choice of successor, and it was an idea that some people say he broached as early as nineteen eighty. The fact that I said was the younger brother of Haffaz and

he served as vice president. Many believe him to be the commanding officer responsible for the Hamma massacre of two um. I briefly mentioned this in the previous episode at the end. It was a horrific massacre, and I think it especially is near to me because Hamma is my mother's hometown and it's probably my favorite place in the world. They have these water wheels that are like, I don't know, they've mesmerized me. But that's another story entirely. We can

be all sappy at another time. But I did want to break up this massacre because most people have no idea that it even happened. In February two as commander of the defense companies that in fact allegedly commanded the forces that put down a Muslim brotherhood revolt in the central city of Hamma by instructing his forces to shell the city with rockets, and this killed thousands of its inhabitants.

Reports range from between five thousand and forty thousand, but the most common suggestion is around fifteen to twenty thousand, still a ship ton of people, and this became known as the Hamma Massacre. A declassified document from the Defense Intelligence Agency estimates the total number of casualties to be

approximately two thousand. However, US journalist Thomas Friedman claims in his book From Beyroute to Jerusalem that I Fat later said the total number of victims was thirty eight thousand people. Thirty eight thousand people. The fact also played a key role in his brother Hoppus's overthrow of saw Shadid and the seizure of power. This change in executive power is

dug by some loyalists. At the Corrective Revolution, the Fat was allowed to form his own paramilitary group, the Defense Companies, in nine and this soon transformed into a powerful and regular military force, trained and armed by the Soviet Union. He was a qualified paratrooper and he ran the elite internal security Forces and the Defense Companies in the seventies and early eighties, but things changed when Haffas severed a

heart attack in late eighty three. As he was recovering, Haffa's established a six member committee to run the country, but a fact was not included. The council consisted entirely of close Sunni Muslim loyalists to Haffa's, who were mostly lightweights in the military security establishment. This caused unease in that that we dominated officer corps, and several high ranking officers began rallying behind your Fat while others remained loyal

to Haffice's instructions. In March of eighty four, Fat's troops, now numbering more than fifty five thousand, with tanks and artillery, ary aircraft and helicopters, they began a certain control over Damascus.

A squadron of Defrats tanks took position at the central roundabout of Cafu Souse in Mount Glassioun, overlooking the city, setting up checkpoints and roadblocks, putting up posters of him in state buildings, disarming regular troops, and arbitrarily arresting soldiers of the regular army, Occupying and commandeering police stations and intelligence building. Occupying state buildings, the defense companies rapidly outnumbered and took control over both the Special Forces and the

Republican Guard. Although Damascus was divided between two armies and seemed to be on the brink of war, the Fact did not move. Papus was then informed that de Fact was heading to Damascus, and he left his headquarters to meet his brother. British journalist Patrick Seal reports an intimate moment between these two brothers. He writes, at a Fact's home and the brothers were at last face to face. You want to overthrow the regime, Hafas asked, here I am,

I am the regime. For an hour they stormed at each other, but in his role of elder brother and with his mother in the house, Hafas could not fail to win the contest, Deferring to him at last, as he had so often during their youths. The Fact chose to accept, although with some inward skepticism, halfics Is pledged that the trust between them would be restored and would

be the basis of their future work together. There was a clear division and tensions between forces loyal to Haffa's, namely the Third Armored Division, the Republican Guard, the various intelligence services, the National Police and the Special forces. The defense companies were so loyal to defact. In the middle of eighty four, Haffas had returned from his sick bed and assumed full control, at which point most officers rallied around him. At first, it seemed like the Fact was

going to be put on trial. He even faced a questioning that was broadcast on television. However, it is believed the Hoffice's daughter Bushta, actually saved her uncle by convincing her father that it would disgrace the family it might cost tensions not only within the Assad family, but within

the Mahlu family as well. Both Haffas and Nafat had married women from the Mahu family, and they also just happened to be the second most prevalent Dilo white family dominating the leadership of the security services behind the Assads, and what first seemed like a compromise, the Fact was made vice president with responsibility for security affairs, but this proved to be simply a fancy title, and post command of the defense companies was trimmed down to an armored

division size and was transferred to another officer, and the entire unit was ultimately disbanded and absorbed into other units. The Fat was then sent to the Soviet Union in an open ending working visit. His closest supporters and others who had failed to prove their loyalty to Haffa's were purged from the army and bath Party in the years that followed. Upon his departure, de Fat acquired three d million dollars of public money, including a hundred million Libyan money,

on a loan in two thousand fifteen. He claimed that the money was a gift from Crown Prince Albila Saudi Arabia, and although the fact returned to Syria for his mother's funeral in nine two and for some time lived in Syria, he was thereafter confined to exile in France and Spain. He nominally retained the post of Vice President until February of night, at which point he was stripped of this title.

He had retained a large business empire both in Syria and abroad, partly through the Sun sum However, the nine Crackdown, involving armed clashes in the Takia, destroyed much of his remaining network. In Syria, large numbers of the Fat supporters were arrested. This was seen as tied to the issue of succession, with our Fat having begun to position himself to succeed the ailing Cofaz, who in his turn sought to eliminate all potential competition for his designating successor, his

son Bashad. As in France, the Fat who is still alive, has loudly protested against the succession of Bashad to the post of president, claiming that he himself embodies the only constitutional legality as previous vice president, alleging his dismissal as unconstitutional.

He has made threatening remarks about planning to return to Syria at a time of his choosing to assume his responsibilities and fulfill the will of the people, and that while he will rule benevolently and democratically, he will do so with the power of the people and the army behind him. Anyway, de fats coup attempt to weaken the institutionalized power structure on which Hafez based his rule. Instead of changing his policy, a sad try to protect his

power by honing his governmental model. He then gave a larger role to Bassid, his oldest son, who was subsequently rumored to be his father's plan successor at the time, and this kindled jealousy within the government at a nineteen ninety four military meeting, the chief of staff said that since Assad wanted to normalize relations with Israel, the Syrian military had to withdraw its troops from the Goal and Heights. Ali Haidad replied angrily, we have become nonentities. We were

not even consulted. When he heard about his outburst, a Sad replaced him as commander of special Forces with the Ala White Major General Ali Habib had that also reportedly opposed dynastic succession, keeping his views secret until after Bassil's death in ninety four, and when a Sad chose but shadow said to succeed him, he then openly criticized as sad succession plans. Okay, before we go back to let's take a quick break b rb Okay, so back to nine.

The regime had done everything in preparation for bast Sale to take power. However, on January one, while Bastard was driving his Mercedes at a high speed, and author Paul Thorou reports that basket the way, driving a hundred and fifty miles per hour. He was driving through dense fog to Damascus International Airport for a flight to Frankfurt, Germany. He was on his way to a ski vacation in the Alps in the early hours of the morning, and it was then the Bassett collided with a barrier and

not wearing a seatbelt, he died instantly. After his tragic death, the regime made sure to elevate the assad name. In the process, shops, schools and public offices and Syria closed and the sale of alcohol was suspended. In respect, he was elevated by the state into the martyr of the country, the martyr of the nation and the symbol for its youth. A great number of squares and streets were named after him, the new international swimming complex, various hospitals, sporting clubs, and

a military academy. The international airport in the tack Yet was named after him Basset Lead International Airport. His statue was found in several Syrian cities, and even after his death, he's often pictured on billboards with his father and his brother. He also has an equestrian statute in Aleppo. Even in November of twenty a museum dedicated to him was no gy rated at the Attackia Sports City. Bassas untimely death

obviously had unforeseen consequences. It led to his lesser known brother Bashad to assume the mantle of president in waiting. At the time, he was content undertaking post graduate training and ophthalmology in London. Bashad was seen as the shy, unassuming younger brother, and for his whole life up to this point he was overshadowed by his father and its older brother Bassett. But then suddenly he was fast tracked

on the path to succession. He was rushed to the military and the constitution changed so that the minimum age required of the president was not forty but thirty four, exactly Bashadow's age at the time. But Shadow became president following the death of his father, who died on June tenth of two thousand. Bast sales posters and his name were also used to secure a smooth transition. After half said introduced the slogan Bastend the example, Bashad the Future.

His quote unquote election was a yes or no referendum, a popular vote on whether the Syrian people wanted him as their president, and so surprised he won with at least of the vote. So after the vote, Bashad is sworn in and he's presented to his people as the savior, as the one who's going to open up Syria and reform the system. Dr Basha, a son referred to him, was seen as the leader of the younger generation of Syria,

the standard bearer of modernization. But the regime was and stayed very cynical and was not at all sincere about these reforms. However, Bashad performed his role and acted the part, cracking down on corruption, reaching out to all sectors of

Syrian society. Back in two thousands, some people were even calling this the Damascus Spring, and the Syrian people were seeing things change, unaware that, as sam Docker puts it, that Bashad is being mentored and tutored by people who have been empowered by his father to kill, torture, and disappear people because they had dared to speak out against

the regime. These hard liners were grooming him and telling him, yes, you can present yourself as a softer version of your father, but no, then order to hang on to power, you have to be as ruthless as your father, if not more. Western governments had the impression that Bashad was someone they could do business with. He presented a modern, open minded image and even hosted notable positions from around the world

in Damascus. Including Brad Pitt and Angeley and Jolie. The US and Europe accepted this perception because they believed that it was in their best interest to do so, and to ensure that this image of Syrian leadership was being presented to the world. The regime was strategic having Bashad show that he was different from his father, even in the choice of who he married. In December of two thousand a, Sad married Esma as a British citizen of Syrian origin from a in London. She was much different

than serious previous first lady. She wasn't from the religious sect that the Assads belonged to, the Allo Whites, who are still a religious minority. She is actually of a Sunni majority. Basha decided to marry someone who has lived all her life abroad, as a British citizen, who was modern and assertive and had a career in investment banking and talked about going to Harvard for business school. She

was even featured in Vogue Come on barf. In an interview in two thousand five, Esma said, quote, the issue here is not how Muslim women decide to dress. The issue is what Muslim women are doing in their society today, it doesn't matter how we dress or what we look like. So hearing this and other things, Western leaders are looking at this modern educated couple, believing they are different and more importantly, that they are more suitable to their interests.

In the post nine eleven era, the United States was looking for allies in the so called War on Terror and said, as Sam Dagger stated in an interview quote, shared intelligence with the Americans and even tortured people on behalf of the Americans. So the West had a vested interest to justify its engagement and cooperation with Bashad by saying he's a reformer. Opening up series economy was a big part of projecting an image of a reformed Syria.

Before Basha took power, Serious economy was a centrally planned economy also known as a command economy, which is an economic system where a government body makes economic decisions based on the production and distribution of goods. Serious economy was in the mold of the Soviet Union's economy, but when

Basha took over, the economy began to change drastically. In the early two thousand's, a t m s were seen in Syria for the very first time and cell phone companies were established, and while the economy may have opened up, everything was still in control of the regime. I wanted to bring up something that my mom mentioned about the differences between Basha and Hafs and how they genuinely believed

he was going to bring modern change. He was doing it all right on paper, but when Hoffas was in power in the early eighties or my mom was talking about her experience in the late eighties early nineties, apparently there were at least three Secret Service stations that monitored everyone in every neighborhood, three per neighborhood. And because my mom was going back and forth from America to Syria my father as well, they would send for my mom.

They would request that she go to the Secret Service, and she was asked there about the Syrians. She knew in the States, what they were doing, what they did, who went to the mosque. She had to write everything she did in detail. She did this every time she visited Syria, and my father went through the same thing. At one instant, she was saying that one time they left her alone in her room for three hours. Because they do this to purposely humiliate you. They make you

anxious to make you scared. And this was just something of normal procedure that a lot of Syrians experienced, just constant terror. As I mentioned, it's a culture of fear, and this is one of the ways that they promoted that. But after Bashar took power, this changed. These places were taken down and it just genuinely looked like Bashad was an improvement. He studied in the West to open up the internet, because previously the internet was only allowed for news,

and it just seemed promising. And before we get into anything further, let's take another break, b r B. We're back. In Sam Dagger's book assad Or Reburned the Country, he describes how tightly controlled this new Syrian economy is. He writes, ten families run Syria and control everything. He continues to describe how this early period in Bashar's rule also brought the rise of another figures cousin. He is related to the assad family through his mother, who was the sister

of Anissa mahluf Tops wife, so she's Bashar's aunt. Rabbi Mahaluf's personal wealth accumulated abroad was estimated to be in the excess of ten billion. In his father Mohammed Mahlouf played the role of the regime's financier, basically haf as his money man. As Bashad said, became President Mahluf's son Rami inherited this business empire and became this new tycoon in Syria. He was the person who made sure that any economic opening would benefit and enrich the Astad family.

Before the Syrian Civil War started in early two thousand and eleven, he was considered one of the wealthiest and most powerful men in Syria and controlled nearly sixty of the economy, including industries of real estate and telecommunication, aviation, the dairy industry, tourism, electricity, and oil trading. According to Syrian analysts, he is part of an inner circle and no foreign company could do business in Syria at the

time without its scent and partnership. The last French ambassador to Syria had lunch with Rommie Ones and described him as acting as quote the king of Syria, puffing cigars and saying I'm in control and everything happens through me. Fast forward to our present day, the economy has completely collapsed ever since the uprising started in early thousand eleven. It could be seen as an accumulation of the past decade.

Syria's sanction hit economy had always relied on Lebanon to sustain itself, but in the fall of twenty and nineteen, Lebanon had its own crises, and it was an economic and political turmoil which forced banks to control access to cash and prevent transfers abroad. Dagger explains, Lebanon has always served as this economic pressure valve, not only for the regime but also for average Syrians. A lot of Syrians

had their savings, their life savings, and Lebanese banks. One analyst told me that Syrians had one billion dollars in deposits in Syria itself versus forty billion dollars of Ayrian deposits in Lebanon. And then what happens in Lebanon. The whole banking system crashes, There are protests in the streets of Lebanon, that outlet that Syrians had shuts down, and

the situation becomes progressively worse than Syria. The value of the Syrian lira had also extremely diminished and continues to trying to recover from this plummet of the Syrian economy. But Shadow turned to capitalists that he had empowered twenty years prior, including his cousin Rabbi Mhlouf, but Shad asked romy for two hundred and thirty million dollars, specifically in back taxes. It was described essentially as being a shakedown.

The world saw this as a huge falling out between Syria's richest man and its president, a dictator, but shadow sent Other prominent businessmen, not just Ramy, were also targeted, and they all quietly agreed to pay whatever the regime was asking for. The economy was an in dire state and the regime urgently needed cash, so the government asked for myn from the businessmen and had empowered in the first place, and most of them comply but not run. In June, Mahluf stated that he would quote quit the

Syrian business scene. On May one, Mahaleuf made an unprecedented public appeal to his cousin. He made this appeal on Facebook, saying that officials were seeking to seize his assets as he was pressured to hand over an excess of one hundred and thirty billion. I think it's what all those zeros mean. An excess of add thirty billion liras due to tax evasion, Mahlouf, who was a part of the Shadow Sets inner circle, said he would pay the president himself,

but not the state. Two days later, he posted another video on Facebook where he mentioned that Syrian security forces arrested some of his employees. He said, how could they do this when I was their biggest supporter and their

biggest servant during the war. However, speculations indicate the Assyrian First Lady Sma Assent had been responsible for this whole plot, the reason being that quote to many businessmen loyal to Esthima competed with Mahloof for control of diminishing resources after collapse of the Syrian Pound, along with sanctions, made the space in which they compete narrow and difficult. This is according to Dr Mohan A. Hejudi, a researcher at the

Carnegie Middle East Center. In addition, the Syrian authorities might have targeted Mahlouf in order to find resources prior to the implementation of U S sanctions related to the Caesar Act. On May seventy, Mahlouf posted another video on Facebook where he mentioned rising pressure on him to handover profits or he might be arrested. On May nineteenth, the Syrian government seized all assets belonging to Mahlouf. On the twenty one,

a Syrian court placed a temporary travel banna Mahlouf. On June, the Syrian government terminated duty free contracts in all ports and border crossings with companies affiliated with Mahouf. This drama between Bashad and Rommi resulted in talks of a rift in the regime's inner circle, and people were concerned that this would expose a rift in the Allo White community itself, which had supplied the bulk of the fighting forces for

the regime. Because in these Facebook videos, Rammi wasn't only appealing to his cousin, his patron with whom he built a twenty year symbiotic relationship with. He was also appealing to the average members of their religious sect, the Allo Whites, most of whom are nowhere near the wealth of the

Assad family's inner circle. He was tongued Allowhites that we had sacrificed everything for the regime and our sons were killed in order for the regime to remain in power, and instead of being rewarded for the fruits of this, the regime was going after an important figure who has been instrumental in supporting people through his business a k a Rommi himself, and it wasn't necessarily untrue, but he wasn't helping people for free obviously, and Johnny had expected

people to remain loyal to him despite all of this. Basically, the Assad family had finished devouring the Syrian state and its resources, and it had now started to devour each other. As of of Syrians live in poverty and are unemployed. There's unrelenting inflation, and basic goods have doubled or tripled in price, rice, flour, sugar, coffee. Everything has become obscenely expensive. There's hardly any meat, and gas is priced in American dollars,

which you can only imagine how high that goes. When my family and I talks to our Familure members that are still in Syria, we hear about the electricity being out for days and weeks, and then the water being out for the same amount of time, and the people are essentially being suffocated by their own government. People are questioned and tortured and kept in prisons for absolutely no reason, and the only way they can get out is by

bribing the prisons thousands of dollars for no reason. It's just about greed, it's about power, it's about terrible people. These monsters just destroying this beautiful place. Syria is so beautiful, and I just my heart breaks for the land and for the people. So although the A Sad regime continues to present itself as the ultimate and only power in Syria, Bashad has actually been at his weakest point in the

last two years. He is only still in his position because the Russians and Iranians want him to be there, and he's only able to maintain his role by playing off his two patrons against each other, Iran and Russia. This is a regime that always derived its power from the army and from the security forces, but the army

largely does not exist anymore. Yes, there are divisions that are trained by the Russians in an attempt to put this army back together, but even the loyalists who support the Shadow said don't want to join the army anymore. They would rather leave the country. So the regime's only option left is to continue to rule by fear. This has had mixed results, especially when you look at the

uprisings that have continued since. However much they have dissipated people, put themselves on the streets, not hiding their identities, vocally and loudly opposing the regime and demanding for the removal of the shadow. At this behavior, as we've seen, it's unacceptable by the regime and it's led to the regime all but destroying its own country. Estimates of the total number of deaths in the Syrian Civil War by opposition activist groups vary between five hundred thousand people and six

hundred thousand people as of March. And I think it's really notable that Syrians are vocally expressing their outrage and there's just a history there of so much trauma. In two thousand five, for example, my mother was telling me that a list of demands, so like what's math six

years after the first uprisings occurred in twenty oven. In two thousand five, a list of demands or corrections um were written down the things that people wanted to fix of the government, free press, free expression, they wanted to make the government and democracy. And Bashad allowed them to list their demands and what they wanted to fix and handed over to him to look at. Essentially an Arabic this is called eland mushk and it seemed like maybe

an open conversation could happen. But then everyone who signed this petition was looked up, hunted down, sent to jail, some for decades and some people that are still there, and others fled the country after they started collecting people. This Ellen de Musk was the beginning of the end. It was the end of the few liberties that people thought would come when took power. He named everyone who signed,

everyone who supported the newspeople to press as terrorists. And I think in spite of that, six years later there was still an uprising. It was an accumulated need to fight back. And so going back to that saying that a SAD loyalists spray paint on the cities, that SAD has demolished a Sad or we burned the country, it seems like both choices have come true. The shadows Set has stayed in power, and he's also burned the country to the ground. And the more he stays in power,

the worst life gets for Syrians. The country is destroyed, families are shattered, and many many people have died. The cost is insurmountable. But a lot of Syrians don't see this fight as over their injustices and grievances remain the same, even after experiencing indescribable horrors over the past twelve years. Syrian people, like all people, they want dignity, they want justice, and they can no longer accept living in this inhumane system where your most basic rights as a human being

depend on your proximity to power. Anyway, this is Sharine. Thank you for listening. I sincerely appreciate your time and I'll see you. Welcome to it could happen here the podcast about the world falling apart and how we can put it back together again. I'm your host, Christopher Wong. Now. Three months ago we covered Great Abbot's attempt to shut down the border and how he was forced basically to

back down by a Mexican trucker strike. And in that episode we mentioned that Abbot's newest stunt was deporting people from Texas to Washington, d C. To make Biden look bad by you know, moving the problem to him. And as a political stunt, this has largely failed as a humanitarian disaster, inflicting untold human misery on completely innocent people. It is still continuing to unfold, and here today to talk about this with US is Amy Fish with Sanctuary

d m V and the Migrant Solidarity Mutual Aid Network. Amy, thank you for joining us and welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. So excited to be here. Yeah, um, somewhat less excited that this is happening because dear God. Yeah. So, I guess to start off, do you want to tell us a bit about what's been I guess how this started in what the sort of initial reaction and non reaction of the d C

government has been. Sure so, Um, in April, Governor Abbott started bussing people from the border to d C. Um. We knew from the get go that this was a racist publicity stunt, um, particularly because the first few busses were dropped off right in front of the Fox News building. UM, and we all initially thought it was going to be a few weeks of bussing people. And here we are, um in the middle of July, and the buses have

kept coming. Um. Buses arrive to d C basically every single day of the week except for UM Monday evenings and Tuesday mornings, and there have been probably around thirty people bussed from Texas to d C. And uh not too long after Governor Juicy of Arizona started doing the same thing and bussing people from the Arizona border to d C, and the d C government has basically been

unwilling to grapple with the reality of what's happening. You know, people are arriving to d C with very very little resources, typically like the clothes on their act. Sometimes they don't even have shoes on their feet when they get off the buses. And it's been, um, kind of amazing to see the way that the DC community has responded. It's been like the type of response that makes me remarkably proud of being a DC resident and being from the area.

And also, um, it's something that the d C government is turning in a blind eye to um and pretending like, um, the reality that we are seeing when we are talking to people that are getting off the buses day in and day out, it's just it's like entirely different from what you know, the DC mayor is saying about the situation. Yeah, and I guess, well, okay, so before we talk, I guess fully about the DC governments just catastrophic. I don't even want to know if I want to say incompetence

so much is just like we'll just let these people suffer. UM, Can we talk a bit about what what what the community responses looked like and what y'all have been doing. Sure, so maybe to back up a little bit to to tell you about sort of like what the experiences of the people that are getting off the buses. These are people that are typically UM coming to the United States

to seek asylum. They're being processed at the border for a few days, and I think what like have been commonly started to be referred to as like the Pereiras and Jeleras at the border, so like the dog cannels, the ice boxes, and the at the border and that are being paroled into the country. And um, so the Customs and Border Protections CDP is releasing these folks to UM like respite centers type of places at the border. UM in Texas. Most of the folks are coming from

Del Rio and Eagle Path, UM. And then they're being told that there's these free busses to d C. And it's it's a little bit mind boggling because we know that Governor Abbott is doing these bus this bussing purely out of the most like racist xenophobic intentions. And also for many of the folks, it's a free bus to to get to where they're trying to go. And so people are riding on the buses arriving in d C and then you know, many of them are trying to get to other places along the East coast UM and

many are planning on staying in d C UM. And so what has happened is we've um developed a massive mutual aid response, which has been super cool. So you know, we have of a crew of volunteers that meet the buses when they arrive UM at Union Station. And if you're not familiar with d C, Union Station is sort of the big transit center and in the middle of d C UM actually relatively close to where the capital is. UM. It's sort of like the DC equivalent of like Penn

Station in New York or something like that. UM. And

so they're dropped off in front of Union Station. We have folks that will welcome them and UM typically we bring to folks to uh different churches around the area that have opened up their spaces as respite centers for us, and we uh you know, sit down with folks, we offer them some food and really try and talk through what their needs are and help them as best as we can meet those needs, whether it is you know, folks may have UM medical or like trauma they need

to work through UM. Maybe they're trying to get to New York, and so we'll help them, you know, communicate with family members or help them find their way to

New York. We you know, for the folks that are staying in d C, we've done our best to help them, you know, find a way to kind of get settled and put down roots in their new community, getting them connected to community members that help them you know, navigate DC to to them how to use the metro, help them get to their you know, check in appointments as they're you know having to jump through all of the hoops of ice and being surveilled by the state, and

and helping them you know, have access to lawyers to explain their legal process and really just kind of like I don't know, I took a dude to to Target to be to like help them get go shopping, and you know, took folks to get uh, just like the random stuff that people need when they arrive in a new place in the same way that, Like, I don't know, if I had a friend moving to d C, I would be like, Hey, what do you need? Like how

can I help you get to know this place? Like this is how our bike share program works, like just

the most basic welcome, get settled. Can we talk a little bit more about what the sort of legal process looks like here and what like, for example, like explain what check ins are and yeah, so, UM, the folks that are arriving are being paroled in UM and so basically what it means is that they are then under surveillance from the federal government UM from ICE, which is Immigration and Customs Enforcement, And what that looks like is

a little bit of a crapshoot. UM. So many many of the folks are UM at the border given cell phones UM that have tracking on them, and so with that cell phone, they're being tracked by the government. They basically have to take like selfies ever so often to UM check in and then they're basically being enrolled in this program called i APP, which is the I can't remember the acronym, it's it's a supervision program. And so they have to go to an ICE office once they

arrive in whatever city that they're arriving to UM. Oftentimes they're being asked to turn in the I the ICE cell phones and having to download an app on their cell phones. If they don't have a cell phone, they might be given an ankle monitor or what many of the Spanish speakers called like a great They be basically

like an ankle shackle UM for electronic monitoring. They'll have UM officers you know, show up at their house, so sometimes they have to you know, be at home from seven am to seven pm so that you know, Immigration and come come buy and make sure that they're like still there. And basically that part of the program is entirely so the government can keep a track of where these folks are. It has nothing to do with like the actual legal process that they are trying to go

through to to be able to stay here permanently. So separate and apart from that, the vast majority of these

folks are asylum seekers. And so what that means is that you know, once they're here, they have a year to apply for asylum and then they're thrust into the like totally broken asylum system that has you know, years long backlogs and things like that, and so then they'll be basically trying to find a way to um get an asylum grant to be able to stay here permanently while also navigating the surveillance that's happening on the ICE side of things are so I know, something that happens

with like I guess regular prison a lot are people being forced to pay for the ankle bracelets, which is which is like from their minimum But yeahs, I mean, I will say that we've one of the issues that we have started, um sort of trying to figure out how to navigate, is that what we're seeing is people, you know, they get the ICE cell phones at the border, and then at their check in they're supposed to turn in the ICE cell phones and then download this at

this surveillance app on their phone. Um, many folks don't have a cell phone or the app only works if you have I think a five G phone, So you basically have to have like the fanciest of the phones, which if you're an asylum secret and you just risked it all to come here to seek safety and you don't really have a support in the US, and now you're being told that you have to have this super

fancy phone or you get an inkle shackle. It's it's just kind of a ridiculous thing knowing that it's okay, maybe you're privileged enough to be able to be surveilled on your own personal cell phone or you just have to have an ankle shackle at all time. So much of this process just like it really feels just like it's it's just it's surveillance just sort of for the purpose of humiliation. It's surveillance for the purpose of humiliation.

It's surveillance for the sake of some Um. This idea that we've been dealing with in the US since September eleven, that uh, immigration is a national security concern that you know, if if immigrants aren't being surveilled twenty four hours it did, then like lord knows what they could do. Um. When the reality is is these are folks that are just

like normal people trying to live their best lives. UM. And I also think how I think it's really important to say how much of this is also entirely based on government funding and availability That so oftentimes the decision as to what kind of surveillance you're under is based upon what is available, um, based on contracts with you know, private surveillance companies and private prison companies that have a

surveillance arm and things like that. It's it's entirely profit driven. Yeah, definitely, definitely. Again, I keep thinking about prisons. It's just like, yeah, I mean literally literally the same companies doing this kind of stuff and how Yeah, and like I think, I don't know, there's there's this kind of like I mean, I guess people it's just a prison industrial complex. But yeah, there's this whole there's a sort of like state private sector complex at both feed on each other where you have

these companies taking federal money to do stuff. You have these companies who are like have figured out ways to extract like money from the people that they're suvailing. And I guess, okay, keep keeping on the thread of the state making people's lives miserable. Um, yeah, so Muriel Bowser not doing anything. Yeah, we're talking about that a bit. So Mariel Bowser's messaging that we have received has evolved

a little bit here and there. So sometimes she says that the majority of people that are getting off the bus have everything they need and have families supporting them, and so there actually is no reason for the government to step forward because these people already have all of their needs met, which I would say maybe one person or one family ever every few days has someone that's you know, ready to meet them when they step off

the bus, but the vast majority of people don't. And I would say that we're seeing an ever increasing amount of people that don't have anybody in the United States, and so they really are in need of a lot of supports to help them really figure out their way here because they don't have cousins or family friends or extended family, whatever it may be, to help them, you know,

put down roots in the in their new communities. UM. And in recent weeks her messaging has shifted a little bit because there is actually a Spain based organization that got a grant from FEMA to support on the buses UM and so now Bowser's response is this organization sad know has it, It's covered. There's there's no like refuse.

One refusing to even acknowledge the fact that the Mutual Aid Network has been and continues to do the vast majority of the welcoming of the folks that are arriving, and two once again refusing to acknowledge that there is any role that DC could be or should be playing here. Yeah, and it definitely it seems like I don't know. I mean, it's it's a kind of classic like state two steps, which like yeah, on the one hand is like okay,

there's no problem. The second thing is we found an NGO we can sort of like pretend is doing the actual work. UM. And I guess one of your things that that I saw from y'all recently was a bunch of people got exposed to COVID while doing this and there was like basically, you guys did basically a work stoppage. So last week, UM, we basically hit a wall. UM, many of our core organizers had been exposed to COVID. UM,

we were running out of funds because this work is expensive. UM. And we had been doing this as volunteers around the clock, you know, twenty four hours a day, seventies a week for months, and last week we kind of hit a wall.

And UM told this NGO that is receiving female funding that UM we needed to take a beat, UM and take two days where you know, folks kuld get COVID tested and make sure they were clear to come back to work and rest and also spend time like we you know, call it a work stuffage, but we're all still working. We were all you know, having conversations as to how we make this work more sustainable, how we find you know, systems of support to to make this

this welcome last. And unfortunately that resulted in people basically getting stranded at Union Station. UM. And when our folks were able to return to welcoming buses on UM you know, later in the week, they ended up with like I don't know, thirty additional people that had basically been sleeping at Union Station because this other NGO that you know is receiving federal funding to do the work that the mayor is saying has it and they're for she doesn't

have to do anything, didn't show up. And and there were a handful of good Samaritans that like you know, would be at Union Station and see a bunch of folks and they you know, spoke different languages and would be able to support them kind of here and there.

But it really showed how um I think it really proved the work that the futual Aid Network had been holding and that you know, if we tried to take a step back things things fall um and really showed how much we need others to step in because the work that we've been holding has is has been you know, wearing us down and hiding the situation a little bit right that people don't people you know, when we're able to really show up and and provide the folks that

are arriving with the support that they need. What it means is that the government isn't paying attention because it's it's not their problem in that moment um. It means that DC residents don't have to walk by asylum seekers when they're trying to get to the Metro after work. It means that, um, you know, the people are cared for and and that's great, and it's work that we're

proud of it. It's work that we're doing well, um, But it's also work that we need support doing, um because it's it's a lot and the numbers have increased, you know, and and we want to be able to provide welcome. We want to be able to give the folks what they need. But as long as we're sort of living in this world where bus tickets are massively expensive and food is expensive, and you know, we gotta we gotta help clothes people and and help people meet

their needs. Then then we have to have support. And

that's just that's just the reality. Yeah, that's one of the things that is really frustrating about this too, is it's like it's not like the resources that you just don't exist, Like it's not it's not even like the state hasn't like attempted to put resources out, but it just got fed into this NGO complex people who are just doing nothing, and I don't know, like the the way you get to see sort of both arms of what the state does where it's like, okay, on the

one hand, you have the part of the state that's just hitting people with clubs, that's just doing this stuff, and you get the sort of political army of the state who just like again are just literally shuffling people's lives around as as you know, as political theater, and the political theory doesn't matter because these people's lives don't matter to the state or to anyone who has even a tiny bit of power unless they you know, they're it's visible enough that people are like the people have

to see it, and that people, you know, get annoyed because oh, hey, look at this thing happening that's like interfering with my life now, and you know, and then it's like, Okay, they're supposed to be part of the state that like tastes care of people, just isn't and that's just incredibly frustrating. I don't know, it's I think

of a few things. So when we first started seeing buses coming to d C, um, you know that people are dropped off in front of Union Station and at the time, there was an encampment of an housed people um that you know, had their tents and stuff in front of Union Station. And so folks would get off the bus and say, you know, what are the tents,

Like who are these people living in tents? And so be like welcome, welcome to the nation's capital of this place that you just came to seek opportunity, to seek safety. And you're immediately showing getting showed in in the most you know, visible terms possible of the way that the state is failing its own people because people in d C don't have housing um and housing gear is immensely expensive.

And then um, I say in the early days because uh in I think it was in May uh that encampment was cleared um and so those people lost their homes UM. And now it continues to be a struggle that you know, if we are unable to provide housing for the people that get off the bus, they are going into the DC shelter system that is already overrun because there is a housing crisis and TC and alarming

eviction crisis. And even for the folks that are arriving here on the buses, if they don't have supports, they're they're thrust into this situation in which the state is preventing them from working. They don't have a way to work legally for at least a few months, um, presumably until you know, they can apply for a work permit, presumably after they file for asylum. But these are folks that don't have a way to work legally, that are

have that have zero support from the state. So how like, tell me how somebody is supposed to live in the United States? Feed themselves, feed them their feed their families, um, have a roof over their head, survive, have a cell phone for your surveillance app have the means to travel an hour, you know, once every few weeks to check in with ICE. If they're legally prevented from working. It's just it's a total abandonment of people who need and

wholeheartedly deserve support. Yeah, and I think like it's it's honestly, like honestly think it's it's worse than abandoned, right, Like if they just like if these people were allowed to come into the US and the state did literally nothing at all, it would be better in the situation that exists now. Like it's not even just that they're being abandoned, is that they're actively being prevented from like doing the things they need to live. And it's I don't notice.

I think this is something you see on a sort of broader level, right whether there's a lot of I don't know about Back when I was in sort of social theory land, there's a lot of talk about like necropolitics and the state letting people die, and it's like, well, yeah, but like they're also actively helping to kill them too, Like that that's like it's it's not just that the

state abandons people. It's that the state abandons people and then it takes the resources and prevents anyone else from using them, and then you know, and when it when it does sort of yeah, I mean going back to sort of this NTO that's not doing anything. It's like, yeah, when when it when it does sort of send these resources out, it's sending them into these like into its own sort of Paris State complex with the sort of

geo sector that's just not doing anything. And it's just I don't know, like it's it's this bind, right because it's like, yeah, like on the one hand, like communities have to be able to support each other, but it's like we don't have the resources for it, and that has to come from somewhere, right, Yeah, it's impossible, and it's it's heartbreaking to see when DC is barely doing anything ing for the people that have been living here for generations, and then when we have new folks arrive,

they're thrust into this impossible situation and no one's really willing to engage with that problem. Um, and there are resources, it's just a matter of whether you want to use them for these purposes. And this is a problem that we're seeing intimately here in d C. But it's a problem that's existing everywhere around the country. And DC is supposed to be a sanctuary city, Like this isn't this isn't d C with a mayor that's you know, politically

aligned with Governor Abbott. This isn't a d C with a mayor who is attempting to be vehemently anti immigrant. It's mayor who is claiming to represent a sanctuary city, a city that is supposed to welcome immigrants and yet m saying welcome doesn't actually mean welcome. Yeah. I remember, like I'm in Chicago and you know, Chicago's also sanctuary city, and I I you know, we had to physically stop

deportation flights with our bodies. Like what the this like haunting memory always remembers like the first big like anti ice, like anti kids in cages protests that we had. One of the groups that showed up to this thing like what it's called Heartland Alliance and then you know they describe itself as like this human rights an anti poverty organization, and they were literally running five child attention centers in Chicago and it was like, I don't know, the doesn't

mean that. That was like just the sort of like the it's it's it's the rubber hitting the road of saying you're a sanctuary city, and what does it look like and it's like, well it means that your micro justice organizations like run child prisons for immigrants. It's a refusal to engage with reality a little bit. And you know the energy of SAMO that is receiving female funding

to presumably abandoned people. Union Station is also you know, if things go their way, trying to open up a facility and DC too, you know, detain an accompanied children and that's welcome to th things very ecity, it's probably worth mentioning. It's like, you know, Spain another country that

has just like people getting like people. So Spain like has a part of North Africa they control, and you know they're like people like people get shot at the border by soldiers trying to like trying to climb fences getting in, and you know, it's it's it's this fun thing where we're seeing like, I mean, this is what's been happening for the last a really like forever, like last five hundred years has been this. But this the sort of this this incredible racist border system is not

just an American thing. It's in Europe, it's in it's been exported like into Mexico itself. It's been I don't know it's it's it's it's it's a it's a politics that's just sort of everywhere, and like frontexs and THEU does this stuff like it's it's all just I don't know, it's borders are racist and they kill people and they kill people, and it feels I don't actually think we have to go to it's I think it's helpful to make those analogies of how this is replicated across the world.

But I also think that you know, just a few weeks ago, there were over fifty uh migrants that were found dead in the ba of attractor trailer in San Antonio, including you know, young indigenous folks. And we know that there have been thousands of thousands of Haitians removed under Title forty two UM and Haitians that are drowning in the water trying to find a way to come to the United States to seek safety. People are literally dying

and trying to get here. And what the folks that are coming to d C in a way are the lucky ones because they're from countries like Venezuela. They're from countries like Cuba where US foreign policy finds it beneficial to allow them to enter too publicly say, you know, these are the quote unquote right asylum seekers and they're able to be paroled into the country and still have to deal with all of this crap that they're dealing with.

But there's countless other black, brown, indigenous folks that are arriving at the border and literally risking their lives and many losing their lives trying to get here because of these like racialized border systems that we have and that we're exporting all throughout the America's like go south to Mexico to Tapatula and you basically have an open air

prison of black asylum seekers. Yeah, I mean that's something that like like my my, the reason my family's here is because we were able to like my graphic got drafted into the Tiwanese army and he was like no, because we were Taiwanese, we were able to get to the US. But it's like, you know, lots and lots of people like you know, if you if you were

from South Vietnam, sometime to let you in. If they if you were from Taiwan, they will let you in, But like God help you if you're from like Indonesia or just like from I mean, so sometimes you get people from China, but it's like, yeah, the I don't know the way that just all of these people's lives are being used at geopolitical tools, they're being used, and then you know, once they get here, they're being used

as just sort of internal American political tools. And yeah, it's just as watch people getting killed with the borders and until we fucking make borders go away, like the stuff is just going to keep happening, and people are getting boarded onto buses and sent to d C because Governor Abbott thinks this is the way that he can run for president. Yeah, by being the most racist, xenophobic

guy in town. Maybe maybe, And and these folks are just political tools, and um, it's it's devastating, um, and it's it's really also kind of amazing to be able to then also just like hang out with them and break bread with them and and realize that we're all sort of fighting this this mess together. Yeah. And I

think I don't know, like we we do. We do a lot of episodes here that are incredibly depressing, but yeah, like I guess, yeah, it isn't I guess important as a as a thing to sort of end on is it, Like yeah, I know, like we like we can take care of these people, like we can if we actually fight this together, we can beat these guys like we I don't know, like it is actually possible. Like these the all of the things that we're talking about, like

the stuff didn't used to exist. It's not it's not something that in how really has to exist, and we

can make it not exist again. I think the the response that we've had in DC has been are really like I can't say it enough how beautiful it is that we have a group of like over two volunteers that have stepped up, UM and we've been able to raise a remarkable amount of money, and we've had like, you know, little kids sell cookies to support our efforts and UM, it's it's really heartwarming, UM and people using their neighborhood listeners to you know, get donations of car

seats to be able to you know, make sure that when we're you know, helping families, we can make sure that like the little kiddos are able to travel in

car seats safely and all of that. And we've been able to and we're doing more of this of like building relationships with folks around the country that are doing similar work, or you know, if someone is taking a bus to New York and it, you know, breaks down in Philly, were able to mobilize other volunteers and Philly to just like make sure that folks are like fine

and okay and like get on their next bus. And that is amazing and beautiful and to me, I think the thing that makes me optimistic and like mad at the same time is that there are both at the federal level and local levels, just billions and billions and billions of dollars that are being invested into into solutions

that are based on like detention, surveillance, border militarization. When God like if instead we just devoted those billy and billions and billions of dollars into making sure that like when folks arrive here, they can have like a comfy bed to to to like lay in at night and have food and be able to like support their families. I mean it kind of sounds revolutionary, but but it's just like it's so simple, um, and there is such a concerted effort to do the opposite of the most basic. Hey,

welcome to my town. How can I welcome you. There was if I remembering my like immigrations history right there. They used they had this program in in the UK where for a while where they would bring okay, you'd have a family they're coming to the US and they get paied with the British family, and the British family would like show them the ropes. And it worked really well.

Everyone loved it, and they stopped doing it because they once they brought people in that they couldn't deport them because the entire community would show up would just be like no, And so they stopped doing it. And it's like that's a problem, Like that's the problem that like people are then welcomed and loved by their communities. Like that shouldn't be a problem that we have to solve.

That should be like, oh, this is a resounding success. Yeah, And instead it's like it's like actually living in a better world, actually having a community where people care for each other and where people take care of each other and where people love each other or people will fight for each other, Like that is something that the state

sees as a threat. And I don't know, I guess it's it's it's it's this, it's this weird thing where it's like, you know, we like the better world we could be living in, Like is is literally being built right like you know you can you can you can walk down the street and you can see people taking care of each other. And then it's like here is the state, Who's the only thing that they want to do is just make everyone's lives increasingly miserable. It's yeah,

like is it? Is it? That's hard to just say, Hey, like, folks want to be able to just like live. That's it. It's all they want to be able to do is just like live. They want to be able to work, they want to be able to support their family, they want to be able to be safe, they want to be able to like eat good food and have fun. And the state is doing everything but allowing that to be and are like mutual aid work is helping folks

navigate and do as much of that as possible. Yeah, I think I think that's a good note to end on, unless you have anything else, I don't think so cool. Um Okay, so where where can people go to find and support this work? And where can they go to like give money if they want to or actually help volunteer too? If you're in the area. Yeah. So, um, we have a link tree that has all of the

links to support us and all the ways. So if you're here in d C and you want to be able to support or if you want to donate, Um, we have really cool t shirts that we sell that say melt Ice that are buying to buy one of our volunteers. Um. And so it's the link tree is uh like the link tree h slash and d C t X Solidarity twenty two And if you follow that link, you will be able to um see all about our work. Um, you know, get the demands that we have for Mayor Bowser,

support us in person, financially, whatever it is. All of that lives there. And yeah we will. We will put the link in the description. So cool. That'd be great. I'll make sure you have it. Yeah, thank you, um and yeah, thank you, thank you so much for joining us, Thank you for having me. Yeah, and this has be naken. Happen here, Go help your neighbors and go make the state not be able to prevent you from doing that. Welcome to it could happen on the internet. The only podcast.

I'm Robert Evans UM and today we've got St. Andrew back in the studio. We don't actually have a studio. That was a lie. That was a lie that I do think I was cooler, St. Andrew. How are you doing today? I am good, I'm good. Andrew dropped the saint. Oh shit, I'm sorry. You're right, you're right, You're right. We should probably. I'm sorry. That's good because I'm no longer a scene. You got to saint? So Okay, if I understand Catholicism, right, that means you undid someone Elsi's

three miracles. I know nothing about Catholicism. Okay, well, I'm pretty sure we have the Protestants Protestant ground here. My knowledge of Catholicism is that to be a saint, you have to do a couple of miracles, but the last one has always something to do with being dead, Like they just decide that whatever you do when you're a corpse, it is like, oh, it's a miracle. Oh Catholicism, Andrew,

what are we talking about? Um? Today we're gonna be talking about something that I would see more traditional Contholicts. We have some disagreements with no Christians. We have some disagreements with them. That is I mean that is our entire audience, is that this this podcast is completely listened to by the Pope's Swiss guards on Vodicans. Yeah, we we have deep penetration in the Vatican. That's an interesting choice of woods considering the end of Pride month, but

allow it. All right, So, um, yeah, what are we talking about. We'll be talking about human evolution, particularly it pertains to human cooperation. Okay, the origins of human cooperation. O. Yeah, I love this ship. I think that you know, people send to emphasize human competition a lot um because capitalism wants us to believe that we have these competitive you know, dog eat dog. I don't know where that term came from, By the way, I've always been curious about that. Um,

as far as I know, dogs don't eat each other. Um. But it's interesting phase and I think it's kind of apt here. Um. This is this idea that that that we just competing all the time, that we're fighting is it's a survival of the fittest, and that only the strong survive. You know, when people talk, you know, casually about prehistoric times, is this very it represents the stories that we've been told about it and as a result, it tends to be very you know, competitive, highly patriarchal,

highly violent, just constant into pus some violence. I mean, that was the justification used to you know, reinforce the state rights like or the state of nature. It's everybody against themselves, and so as a result, you know, the state had to be introduced. We treated some of our freedoms for the safety that the state is supposed to provide. But as far back as Brudon and really even further,

because let's be real, it's a very European concept. That's something that can be protected towards all human societies and all human philosophies. UM. But Prudon was one of the first white guys, I guess um in his time period and in his fields, really challenge that notion with you know, mutually a fact of evolution. Of course, the studies and stuff that he would have done, the knowledge that he would have shared upon you know, non un studied by people before him, but he was one of the first

really bring all that knowledge together into one place. UM. Years later, Um, an anthropologist and paramatologists, was born. I mean she wasn't born that, but she became that later in life. In ninety six, that would be Sarah Black for her, and so she made many major contributions revolutionary psychology and sociology biology, especially pioneering our modern understanding of the evolutionary basis of female behavior in both non human

and human primates. In two thousand two, she was recognized as one of the fifth most important women in science

and in Mothers and Others. Together with her earlier work, earned plready the National Academies Award for Scientific Reviewing in honor of her insightful and visionary synthesis of a broad range of day turn concepts from across the social and biological sciences to illuminate the importance of biosocial processes among mothers, in funds, and other social actors informing the evolutionary crucible

of human society. In essence, she got an award because she recognized the fact that the relationship between mother and child and you know how humans raise their children, Um, it's vital in our evolution and in a becoming human. Yeah, I mean that's um, Yeah, that's fascinating. I didn't know any of that. Yeah, I mean humans, they we we

do recognize. Now I'm starting to recognize more and more parmacto parmatologists at least that um humans I let other great apes rather, they do care, they shay, and they empathize a lot more than we may have originally thought. But humans still when at know the caring competition, I think we because of even something I call official and not to me um on how we structure society use is probably one of the more crusal show of you know,

the other greed apes. Yeah, it's interesting whenever I because obviously I've read stuff about like empathy and apes, but it's always in the context of the ones that we

taught sign language to. The one I'm remembering particularly is and I'm I'm spacing on the name that the scientists gave her, but one of the apes, yeah, Cocoa, when her reaction to like nine eleven um because it was apparently like on the TV or some ship wouldn't happened, but like I never here emphasized the same degree um or you know, maybe I just have not sought it out, but it's certainly kind of less uh less discussed as like evidence of empathy within um within like the societies

that they built, I guess like would be the term for them. The little their communities, I don't know, whatever you wanna call them. Yeah, yeah, I was interesting as well. I mean, Coco was a guerrilla and regarding her sign language is actually interesting video essay talking about how a

new NS word sign language. Then we assume, but Coco was a guerrilla and humans are were closely related to two groups who was being um bunobos and chimpanzees, And we tend to look at chimpanzees, which tends to be more you know, violent, and people use them as an example of all this how humans naturally are despite the fact that you know, we have millions of years of evolution diverging from chimpanzees. You know, our last common ancestor was like six or seven million years ago. Yeah, that

that's a bit distant. Like yeah, like I got member to five or six years and I consider us pretty like pretty far apart. Yeah, yeah, I mean, and then on the top of that, like there was enough time for some serious divergences. Is not how you know, like the fact that humans, you know, walk up right and chimpanzee is they still have you know that that four legged gate. It's actually something that I learned recently evolved on two separate occasions, that being that particular kind of

knuckle walk. Um. Yeah, I just want that kind of fascinating kind of besides the point, um, but yeah, I mean, we we tend to look at chimpanzeese as our closest example, but nobles which are a lot more social, I would say, a lot more cooperative and less violent, and chimpanzees actually share a lot of you know, similarities in terms of

you know, our behavior. And they're also one of the few animal species that have been you know, recognized as having sex for pleasure and not just procreation, So good for them. When we talk about evolution, a lot of it has been shaped by dar And even though science is not about figures and big figures and their big ideas,

it's about the ideas themselves. Um. But still, seeing as Darwin was the one who really introduced, no, the idea of competition, the idea of of all that in evolution, those sorts of notions which came really out of his time and industrializing competitive woods, um, it really overstates the rule of competition as of driving force and evolution, when in reality, cooperation was far more potent force when it comes to like pro social human tendencies um, you know,

doing things to benefit others. That's what pro social is. Dr Hardie really comes down on the cooperation side of things in her book Mothers and Others especially, brings together all this evidence that we are basically the sad dounes of a place to see in species of corporative breeders. Corporative breeding is a practice amongst some animal species UM. Other mammals do it, but I think we are one

of the few. We were were were the only create apes to do it, and there are other primates to do it, or the monkeys to do it, but none closely related to us. Cooperative breeding is basically the practice or the reproductive strategy UM where all parental care is provided to the offspring of you know, the children of cittain parents in the group. Al parental care is basically the practice of UM, basically non direct parents care M

care provided by individuals other than the parents. And so by having that network in place, by having the process of out parenting in place, that's how we were able to be so successful as a species. You know, distribution, you know um, you know, establishing ourselves in all these different environments because humans spread barely rapidly around the globe,

and we used to. We've established ourselves and created cultures and all sorts of unique environments, and honestly, we are the most successful out of the primates in not regard so kudus to us um, and that is because of corporative breeding. Did you just wou Probert? Yeah, of course, yes, like we have to, we have to ratio the rest of the primates, you know, very very based on us. We literally reassured them, literally were re feeling everything on

this goddamn planet except for chickens. And no, except for chickens. Corn is definitely ratio. Thus, yeah, for sure, for sure cows too. Man. Oh, yeah, that's true. That's true. Cows chickens on this one. For sure. We have a lot of them. Yeah. But I mean there's many different species of goods and there's only one species a few months. Yeah, you know, I mean, what's the population of dogs? Oh, it's actually every time I look, it's less than you'd expect.

What nine million? Yes, that's ridiculous, less than i'd have expected. I want more, give me more. Do millions like rookie numbers like I was going to expect, like at least a couple of billion just based on but no, just nine. Yeah. Every time I look it up, I recall being like, oh, there's not as many dogs as I thought there were.

I guess they would corporative bredas sure not. And only four hundred million cats was a rookie numbers cat Come on, cats, But it's actually probably I mean, party for the best. They do a lot of damage, my dad always says. My dad always says that we need more dogs in the world to fix the fucked up humans. Yeah, I mean I feel a lot of pressure to put on dogs. That's completely fair. I feel like that's really our job to fix up humans. Yeah, no, no, no, well I

mean dogs for that. I mean cots and dogs are pulling a lot of weights as it is, you know they are. What are ferrets doing? Yeah? What a fish doing? What are ferrets doing? Andrew ferrets? Fucking ferrets? Yeah? And like fucking goldfish? Right, what are you guys? What do you what a goldfish? What have they been doing lately? Motherfucker's like, get off your asses and stop us from killing people. Goldfish, stop the war in Ukraine? Goldfish, Come on, I mean to get to cut gold fish. Some slack.

They're busy dying because people would want to take care of them. Yeah. Yeah, they're like all of the people treat them like house plants. I didn't think we would have Andrew being a goldfish to apologist on this podcast. Correct if I'm wrong, But I don't think Cool committed any like wool crimes or anything within my rights to

defend them. They haven't stopped any work crimes either. Plus, I mean, this is my police snell kill talking, and I've I've you know, I've I've neglected my fair shaff Yeah,

you know, speaking of cross species cooperation. When I was younger and living in Texas, there was this one day where like we're out on this in our like fucking backyard area, and we see walking through the alley behind our houses this massive turtle probably three four pounds, like like easily like three or four feet uh in in circumference on his shell, just like an enormous animal, just like strolling around the neighborhood, not a species that you that you see in Texas wild. So we like kind

of try to corral him. We can't lift him, he's massive, but we like corral him into the into our yard area. And give him some cucumbers, and eventually his person comes around and the guy explains that like, yeah, when teenage mimut ninja turtles came out, a lot of people bought a bunch of different kinds of turtles, thinking they were

good pets. But they didn't realize that there's a lot of the turtles that get sold like never stopped growing, like if you keep them alive, they just keep getting bigger, and so he like and they smelled about only if they're time. He had adopted this turtle and it lived in his yard and he said like, yeah, he's really strong, Like I have a good fence, but every two or

three years he'll just walk through it. Like most of the time he chooses to stay in the yard, but every couple of years he was, I'm just gonna go on a walk and and he's like yeah, he just like breaks through the fence. It takes him about a second, like if he wants to do it. That's like, I don't know if you've seen Baki, have you seen back? No? Is this is this me um and no this is

not my my web coming out story. I have not read of you with much in that regard but I started back he recently and the first episode they established that all these people are coming to Tokyo right for

like some kind of fighting competition. And the way that they established those people as are dangerous is that these are all like criminals and like death through and so like in the process of being put to death, like one person is, you know, being injectives, only one persons being electrocuts, being hung, and they all managed to break free after they die and like break off the prison easily.

This one guy, he was imprisoned underwater. He breaks out of the underwater prison and swims several miles up to the surface and then swims all the way to Tokyo. And it's like, for some reason, not to it will break it out of his inclusion whenever he chooses. Just reminded me of like they're trying to establish his power levels. You No, he's he's too powerful to be contained, um. And he's probably still alive because they live forever um, which is again why they're bad pets. Yeah, because what

did you do about slavery? Yeah yeah, yeah, well that what he may not have been around for slavery, but what did you do? What are you going to do the next time they're slavery turtle. You know, are you gonna stop it? I don't think so. You're a turtle. We mean, next time, is this something you should be telling? What is attention to the Supreme Court? It's not. Well in the future, that's sure, that's sure. What leave the turtles out of this? Well if they stop the Supreme Court,

I will stop shooting on the turtle. Is you're just doing that meme from where people were like I gave up my plastic straws for the turtles. Where are they now? That was a thing. Yeah, it was bad. I don't remember that. It's like, come on, just get a well. I will say that. I mean, at least for corporative breeders. And I think our our tendency of corperative breeding tendency probably has something to do with the fact that we adopt other species as pets and as members of our family,

because you don't really see other animals doing that. No, you know, um, I think there's there's some kind of like fish or crustacean or something that that keeps another species like as livestock. Yeah, there's a couple of species to do versions of that for sure. Right, But I mean we love our dogs and our cats, our ferrets and our snakes and our tarantulas and our ferrets questioned goods. Yeah, people are trying to like domesticate foxes so we could

love them too. You know. It's the people they are, people who who keep big cats that, people who keep like ms, and people who keep all kinds. We just you know, it's like we've got to catch them all, you know, like we just want to take all these creatures and we wanted to love them. I don't know that says about us other than the fact that our cooperative nature extends beyond the boundaries of you know, us

as a species. We inhrated very high levels of mutual tolerance, of perspective taken and other pro social impulses from ancestors who use our parents or care and provisioning of the young two survive. I mean, we didn't invent complex corporation. Our pre human ancestors did, but we elaborated upon it. Yeah, it's um. It's always interesting to me to think about that. I think back up to one of the first time I ever went to a war zone was Ukraine, and it was this We were in this little town called

of Dificult. It was getting shelled by the Russians, and there was this big the way they do the heating over there, they have these events going underneath, are these tubes going underneath all the houses to supply them with

like gas and stuff. And there's this this big was this big central like kind of box thing and in one there's a few of them in the town and stuff that like is the I don't know, I guess it's like the like nexus of a bunch of different houses all whatever heating systems, so it's warm, and the people they're like when the war started, a bunch of people fled and they left pets behind, you know, sometimes

they didn't really have a choice because it's war. Um. So there were all these cats and dogs, and soon all these breeding cats and dogs, all these kittens and puppies, and people who lived there had like turned that little junction box for the heating system into this like massive kind of open air cat and dog sanctuary. So like there were all of these like dozens and dozens of puppies and kittens just like living together in this big

heating box. Um. In then the over this like being taken care of by all these local ladies who would scrounge up food every morning and make sure that they were all taken care of. UM. And it was interesting because you could see all these like cats and dogs living together and all of these people coming together to take care of animals they didn't know. UM. At the same time, like all of the people were doing their level best to murder the folks like a mile and

a half away and vice versa. UM. So we contain multitudes of human beings definitely. I mean that's possible to write like the fact that we are sue eager to like share another emotional steeds, you know, to empathize and do we either we assume eager to involve ourselves and and give and share with those who are unrelated to us. I mean there are a lot of species that do

not realise the young at all. Um. And then there was the do and try to kill other people's young, and there was a two stick care of their own young. But you know, we even in this like super individualistic capitalists, will we still find ways to look out for each other. And I think that's beautiful. Yeah, of course, you know, cooperative reading doesn't mean that there's like constant like on either dynastore like cooperation and yeah all the time, it

still can't be competition, which you know, all these different things. Yeah, but behaviorally, anatomically, and emotionally modern humans cooperative breeders. And the crazy part is those you know, three um traits you know, behavior and not to be in an emotion,

Those illustrats not evolved simultaneously. So for example, of physical features like our eyes and the fact that our eyes are are able to you know, we can see the whites and our eyes and that way we can put ourselves in other people's perspectives and that kind of thing, we could see the emotions more clearly. You know, the fact that we we were prone to sharing our smiles, and the fact that, um, you know, our vocal courts have such range to be able to communicate to many

different things. Um. While these are hallmarks of the fact that you know, even before our super big brains developed, we already getting these treats that would have helped us in cooperation. But I wanted a lot of time though, because you know, a lot of the shapes we developed before language. Um, it's like what was the first word of humanity? You know what was the first sentence? What was the first thing like we said? And how did

other people react when the person said it. I can imagine that, you know, like agriculture, something that's developed independently, um, multiple different occasions in different places. But I still wonder, like what those foost conversations might have been avoked. Yeah, I mean I think a lot of them probably would have been arguments with other people who didn't want us

to do words. UM who will ultimately right, you know if if only Yeah, I don't know, it's interesting, Like I think it probably like we we just did a couple of episodes about the history of of of gynecology UM, and one of the things that we talked about at the start was like the prehistory of medicine, which which likely began in an organized way UM by like likely the first people practicing medicine in any way, we're pregnant women and women who had been pregnant trying to help

each other survive pregnancy, right, UM. And I wouldn't be surprised if at I mean, food gathering is obviously the other one, but I wouldn't be surprised if like language started as a way to try and like communicate and better survive making babies because it's it's like super dangerous and also entirely necessary um and and something that kind of particularly benefits from communication. So I don't know, I wouldn't be shocked if that was like the first thing

we talked about, so to speak. Mm hmm, that makes sense. But I'm also thinking as well, and it just occurred to me it's pretty possible like that the first language was not spoken language. I feel like it may have been like a form of sign language, you know, because you know, we have these hands, and people tend to talk with their hands, so yeah, oh yes, I think hypothesis is that, you know, we use the hands to

communicate things before we started speaking. I mean, the fact that we were able to teach apes, you know, other apes to use sign language, I think that's a good

sign that we can lead to communicate with that face. Yeah, I mean, it's also you know, probably how our communication with dogs started, because that's one of the things that makes them special is they're pretty much alone in animals and that they like and kind of instinctively grow up understanding that when we gesture at them it means stuff like if you point dogs will look where you're pointing a lot of the time rather than at you, which is like a rare trait in animals. So yeah, I

think you're probably right on the money there. Huh. I didn't even think about that. That's true. That's true. And of course that makes it fun because you could always fake them out and throw something stupid to do. Yeah. Yeah, and does fall for that ship So I love she does not fall for that. I can't fake her. I can't fake her out. That's probably why she's the woman

of the host. I'm you're all wrong pretending to throw stuff at a dog and then it goes running and then it realizes that you faked it, Like that's the best. I can't relate because if I try to do that, she looks at me like a good try. Uh huh, Okay, Sophie. Where you need to go is corgy Con in San Francisco. One of these years will they let Anderson? And even though she's only she does she's only party. There's nothing but acceptance of corgy Con acceptance and hundreds of corgies

frolicking in the surf. It rules. She'll try to hurt them all. Yeah, they are all trying to hurt all of them into it. They are all very excited and don't know what to do with each other. It moves so as the book progresses, Hotty spend some time talking about how we are similar to and different from other greed EAPs, tweeling about how we use eye contact and smiles to bond even from a young age. Um, you hm,

we people we've be tend to hear about it. But the fact that babies cries are so attuned towards attention and capturing the attention of people, Um, these are all in like basterds. Yeah, yeah, I mean I was. I was a screamer. Apparently I used to real real ball, ball and ball and ball. In fact, one story I was told was that the neighbor called and was like something happening to Andrew, and my parents were like, nah, he's just grand. There's like three o'clock in the morning.

But I mean, look at me now, I'm balling for justice, that's right. Yeah. One interesting treat that you know humans have is all willingness to like share our babies with others, other grade apes. You know, those mothers. They tend to have like constant contact and care with their children, you know, like they don't let others touch their children at all, probably because like other mothers tend to want to kill their kids or of course harm to their kids, they

tend to be very protective of them. Whereas you know, as all parents, we are you know, full of fledged cooperative readers. You know, we have not only shared our young with others, but al paar intervals have been been recorded breastfeeding the young of others, you know, and and masticating and passing like hard to digest foods to infunts. I'm mixing up my terms a bit in terms of you know, what what is a primate and what isn't

ape versus what is you know, just whatever. But mamosets and tamarins which are colored strike kids or calatressids colortry kids, they are also corporative breeders and they're very fast breeders as well, rapid rapid breeders. Um, so you know, good for them. It's also typical of our species. We tend to be very fast breeders, and that's why we reshoot

all the other great tapes. What I find interesting as well is that we'll be able to breed so rapidly despite the fact that our um do you'll remember um the word for like carrying a child. I'm just blacking right now, Gregors. No, no, no, I think you're you're thinking of the incubation period. Is that what we're trying to think of. Yeah, but that's such a that that

feels like a very the humanizing way of witness. Yeah, I'll just say that carrying a baby, you know, and the costs because on you know, woman's body, on humans body, Um, it is like a whole thing. It's a whole thing. Yeah. And if we keep will have ha been so many in one lifetime despite the cost necessary to raise each I mean other animals they have like meets and seasons and you know, they have set amounts of children they

could have in their lifetime. But no, mm hm, you know we could just I mean, they're their stories of women who have had like dozens of kids, which is you know, unfortunate circumstances because you know, in those cases it tends to be um, not necessarily willing. But the fact that we are capable of having many kids is lends towards the importance of having support systems in place. Because other animals don't tend to have more children they can care for if that is you know, the care

for children. A lot of them just eat their kids

if they can't care for them exactly. Can't do that once, you know, makes sense, Yeah, whereas we kind of evolved to have support systems in placement, speaking of eating babies, kind of there kind of is a dark side to that, um because even though we tend to have you know, these children and stuff, and we tend to were supposed to have these support networks to care for them, the practice of infanticide is actually something that has a long long history UM in human practice, where if a mother

determines that they're not able to raise their child, they don't have the support systems in place to care for that child. Different practices would typically be used to you know, deal with that child. And that's of course what makes the anti abortion stances um soon inhumane, you know, because Yeah, the whole reason we that abortion is so um important is because it protects the you know, the autonomy and the agency of you know, people who can carry children.

And yet in this will it continues to atomize us and individualize us and separate us um you know, shipping some people of their support networks, so we can in our support networks. It's still expected to and punished heavily if you do not just pump out as many children as you can. And it's it's sick, it's really sick. Yeah, that's not great when it comes to those support networks.

Most people are familiar with, you know, extended family like for example, grand appearance UM and I fact, an infant survival is significantly affected by a grandmother's presence, which is why humans tend to live long past their reproductively viable period. You know, human females live after menopause for pretty long time in commarison to other species, and of course their grandmothers and there of course fathers. UM. There are sisters and god parents and really a lot of other um

cultural systems in place, even polyandrous meeting UM. I think I mentioned that in the previous in the previous episode. There are also forms of like bilocal flexible residents patterns where you know, you always have kin around to take care of your infants. And I would say that it's it's kind of tough because a lot of people these days, you know, struggled with the extended families. Um, it's very

much cool. Um, I love you, but I'm glad we live in separate kind of situation, you know, Like extended families definitely have a lot of proves and cons um which is why we actually find I think interesting in a lot of examples of chosen families throughout different societies, and also even there's some evidence that that might have in the case in the past as well, where unrelated

people would form groups together um. As one example, I remember reading about, of course this can't necessarily extended to prehistoric times, but I've seen it in multiple different hunter gatherer situations. But um, where we have this this clan system in place, um, and you can not so how far you travel, you can expect to receive care for members of your clan. UM. In North America, I think it was like the Beer clan and the Elk Plan

and all these different plans UM. In Aboriginal Australia, they ablso have different groups as well, and so people were able to interrupt with each other across huge distances and set them in different places and connect with others to

find kin you really necessarily directly related. Yeah, there's a couple I mean there's a there's a book called sets It On that I read many many years ago that's about kind of like the evolution of human sexuality and how some of it's been like how different cultures have looked at things like like what makes someone apparent UM, And there's all these different attitudes, Like before we had kind of the scientific understanding of like where you know,

how how babies are conceived um, that we have now there were all these different attitudes this idea and I forget the name of the people who, but they still exist with somewhere in Latin America, and their their their belief was essentially that when you got someone pregnant, that was the start of the process, and then after like conception, the person with the baby would go around and yes, yes, I remember that woman for the baby, and the idea

was that like, well, yeah, when they fucked, that person's like essence gets added to this forming child. And one of the things that that does socially is it means that it means that for that community, UM, children weren't

seen as having one father. They're seen as having a bunch of fathers, all of whom were like responsible for teaching the kid and raising it, which is like, oh, that's a very sensible way to, uh, to organize your little society is to is to is to ensure that like, the kids coming up have as many adults who are like responsible for them as possible, which is, broadly speaking, the best thing you can do for kids is to have a bunch of adults be interested in their their

their their success exactly because I mean, like, if you have like one of the best hunters in the village raised in your child, and you have the best craftsman of the villageries in your child, and you have the best fisher villageries and child, that child is gonna have a very well rounded education. You know, it's going to be able to learn a lot of different skills that they're going to need. I mean, that's just one of

the many positive effects of having multiple care givers. The development of a child's world view and sense of self, their concept of self and others, their concept of empathy, the concept of independence, how they how they view the world as either dangerous or insecure or giving and welcoming, and so I mean, we are so used to this nuclear family world view, which is these independent um households that we don't consider the fact that having a broad

range of people raising them is actually crucial to their personal development as children, to the human development really having

all those different perspectives and stuff in place. And I mean, that's part of what Pretty talks about, especially in her final chapter, that being how in modern times, the accumulation of property um, the emergence of patriarchy um, even the stuff in the post industrial era, all of these would prompt to shift from cooperative breeding, from cooperation between groups, two war between groups, especially with property, because when you have property, you have a need to hold onswer property.

And the whole idea of property is you and yours, the exclusion of all others, right, you know. And so at the end of her book, she also speculates we might be losing our art of nurture because we are

continually evolving um. But she wonders what might be potential evolutionary effects we if we're wearing children who are not living in internet contact with a variety of caregivers, because especially within those first two years of life, influence rate and responsible care taking relationships developed in their potentials for empathy, mind reading, and cooperation and collaboration. I mean, these behaviors are the outcome of complex interactions between both genes and nurture.

The question is, how can these in their potentials remain more than potentials, you know, I mean, because the development of them is far from guaranteed. A lot of children these days are raised without extensive social contact. UM. I mean, even in the year of COVID, where all children are

isolated at home, especially the heights of pandemic. I really wonder if we will see like a Mark at like distinct generation of like within a range of two years of children who just aren't as socialized because for those first two years of their life they were kind of isolated. Well, those first few years, they're like, they're kind of isolated because there's this lack of empathy, lack of corporative skills, and lack of attachment that may cause it's Mr Mark,

It's it's really trauma. Um. But trauma doesn't necessarily stop people from continuing that drauma, from reproducing and carrying that on. And so I really I'm really curious us to see what the effects that might be and also what we can do to try to um cube that negative impact. The last question she asked is, really will humans in the future still be empathetic and curious and about the

emotions of others because of our ancient heritage. Can you not care I'm paraphrasing here, or will these systems that we have in place evolve us in the more Marcafellion direction. Well, I guess that's the mystery that we're all going to get to watch unfold in pieces, at least over the course of you know, the rest of our lives and

everyone else's lives. It is, I don't know. I I think the overall arch of it speaks more to the things that about us that are good into increasing cooperation, because that is like the story of the last couple hundred thousand years of human evolution, although at the same time some of that a lot of that cooperation has

gone towards fucked up ends as well. Like, I mean, all of the good and the bad things happening right now are are one way or the other examples of cooperation, right, Like it's it's, uh, yeah, I don't know, let's help things get better. So I think we could do more

than hoope, I think we can act. Yeah, We're going to have I mean, like that's the thing, right like part of how specifically in the United States, I mean, but internationally to the right has gotten so much over the last really five or six years in particular, is cooperation across borders and across like ideological differences. Like there's there has been like tremendous sustained cooperation that has allowed them to amass power, the power that they're early exercising.

And the only thing that's going to actually counter that is the cooperation um an organization if a much larger amount of people, Like there's not that many of those folks, that's why they've had to be so organized. There's a lot more of us. But we're also can't stop fighting about ship. So it is it is like we are going to have to evolve in real time to cooperate better with one another and more effectively in order to

in order to wrench the wheel back. That's true. M hm. Anyway, that's not lose uh And let's not lose your plug, Dobles Andrew. Yes, you can follow me on Twitter. I don't disclose seem true. I'm finding me on YouTube and truism hell yeah, hell yeah. Well, folks, that's gonna be all for us here today. That It could Happen Here until next time, Go happen somewhere else. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the Universe. It could Happen Here

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