It Could Happen Here Weekly 23

along with Garrison and Chris. Um, we are pre empting the episode that will be airing after this because Um of events that happened in Portland, Oregon this weekend. On Saturday the nineteen there was a weekly racial justice march. UM. The march again it occurred. Its occurred every week for a couple of years now. UM. It is instensibly led by the mother of a Patrick Kimmins, who is a Portland a young black Portland man who was killed by the police a couple of years ago. UM. This is

a regular thing. As a general rule, you'll see a lot of folks in the right talking about this. March is like an Antifa gathering. Um. This almost never gets any coverage whatsoever. Because as a general rule, UM, it's it's just a march where people, you know, protest police violence. It's not something that that tends to draw much attention, UM,

even within Portland's UM. This Saturday, a person who lived in the neighborhood where people were assembling for the march UM left their home confronted a group of women who were acting as corkers. Corking is a job at protests. It's a traffic safety thing. It's people on a mix of usually bikes, motorcycle scooters every now and you see like a one wheel and their job is to kind of route traffic around the march in order to keep people from getting hit by cars. UM. It is a

safety thing. UM. These folks were confronted by this person. Reports on the ground that have been covered in local news from people who were there say that he started out yelling at them, calling them terrorists and um. According to one person who was on the scene, within about ninety seconds began firing. Uh. He hit and killed one woman, UM, and he wounded four others UM. And he himself was shot by a protester who was nearby, who was to

all everything we know so far, legally open carrying a rifle. UM. He is the shooter. Um is in critical condition in the hospital. UM. One of the people who was doing traffic security that night is dead. UM. I believe at least one is still in the hospital. The others have been released. That's that's the the actual like, that's those are the facts of the situation as they're known. The protester who returned fire quickly afterwards turned themselves and their

rifle into the police. UM. You know, the police to the stuff that they do in these instances, and then released the person who had responded defensively to the shooting. And that's where or we are right now. UM. Portland police have been very cag and saying anything about this. They have framed it as a clash between a homeowner and protesters. UM. One thing we can say, based on where this person came out of it does not appear that they were a homeowner. Looks like they left a

would have been like a rental thing. Not that that particularly matters, but it's interesting the framing with the police are choosing to use here. UM. And yeah, there's there's fairly little information as of right now, the name of the shooter has not been released by the police. UM. Neither has the name of the protester who responded UM to the gunfire. But we do know, you know a number of the people who were hit. We know the person who has deceased. Avoid kind of spreading anything more

specific than that until there's there's evidence. There's not yet video of this, although one of the people who was there says they have a go pro that was taken by the police that may have something. I don't know

the extent to which we will get that information. Again, the police have been acting to uh kind of make this look like a clash rather than what the evidence that like reporters at OPB and the Portland Mercury and even the Times have have found, the interviews they've conducted, UM, it seems fair to say that this was a mass shooting UM that was stopped by a protester, as opposed to what I would call a clash YUM. But that's that It's obvious Portland police aren't going to want that

narrative to come out very telling lee. The mayor of Portland, Ted Wheeler, issued a statement where he talked about the shooting as a piece of the city's ongoing gun crime, did not mention the woman who was killed, did not mention the injured, but expressed his sympathy with the police

for being so tired. Um, so you know that's Portland's Yeah, I mean it's pretty sick and like you shouldn't like it's not like dismissing it by saying it's Portland's saying like this is like no, there's there's been growing rather right from the city and people the past few years

that have basically been encouraging something like this to happen. Um, and now that it has, it is also pretty sick looking at different like media framing and police framing and talking about it's a homeowner and how it was like, yeah, it was like a clash, not like an outright attack on people. Um. Yeah, so it's it's it's bad. It's it's pretty gross. But what we can do right now

is support the people who were there. Yeah, they go fund me for medical expences and you know, mental health effects in thee because it's a bit some of the wounded were themselves plugging up the bullet holes of other wounded while they had also been shot. Because it was a lot of the people doubled as medics or had some sort of medical training. Um, there were medics who were like threatened by police when they arrived on scene for not being willing to stop providing um pressure to

a gunshot wound. Like a bunch of ugly stuff happened. There's a mix of ugly stuff and like stuff that seems ugly but it's pretty normal. Like the ambulance did not move in immediately, which obviously people on scene were very angry about. That is standard everywhere for like ambulances at active shootings, and it's just I mean, it's not pleasant, but it's also like they're not ever acting from as much information as the people who were there maybe have.

I'm not I'm not gonna blame you know, e M T S or whatnot for following s OP in this situation. I will blame the police for their responses to stuff like this obviously, and the fact that, um, you know, it's it's unlikely that a satisfying police investigation will be conductive. That said, it does seem like we already, based on the early reporting that exists from again a number of different news organizations, number of different local journalists, that we

have a pretty good idea of the basics of what happened. UM. Obviously more will come out in addition to you know nothing, but respect to the medics who responded, UM, I think it's worth acknowledging that the protester who shot the shooter UM seems to have, from the evidence we have handled themselves as close to perfectly as you can in a defensive shooting. UM. They stopped the threat, UM, they went to the police, they turned in the rifle. They did not.

And there's a number of reasons for this, including the fact that, like the last time there was a shooting that was involved the left wing demonstrator, that person was hunted down and killed by U. S. Marshals UM. But it also I think helps when it comes to the legal stuff that's going to wash out on this the investigation. It really helps that this person dotted their eyes and crossed their ties to make it very clear that this

was a UM A very like legal self defense situation. Obviously, I think a lot of the folks who participate in these things don't particularly care about the law one way or the other. But in terms of how other people see what has happened and what the fallout to this is and maybe the degree to which people properly put some blame on the city for this. I think it is helpful that the person who responded UM with their

rifle to their shooting conducted themselves so carefully. So, I mean, I have I have a lot of respect for everybody on the ground. A lot of hard decisions had to be made, UM, and it seems like in a a the worst case scenario situation, the people who were on the ground handled themselves UM with a tremendous amount of thoughtfulness and encourage. I think that's everything. Yeah, I don't think there's not nothing much else to say at this moment right now, to safe, be careful, and again the

go fund me. Just type type go fund may stand with Portland into Google. It will take you to the go fund me UM and you can help folks out there. Hello, welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison, and today we're talking about two of my favorite things, which is unions and coffee. UM. Joining me as a usual is Chris and Sophie. What do you guys think about about coffee and unions and the combination thereof big on unions like that, like like making them like having them not

big on coffee. It's it's too bitter. I can't do it. Unbelievable. Union's great coffee, great, Chris bad, Chris gets the wall. It's the ultimate canceling. That is more intense. We are coming down all the coffee issue. I don't ever tell prop that. Don't ever talk prop. You don't like coffee. I worry. Um and anyway to to join us to discuss coffee and unions is a union organizer and uh

also someone with a podcast, so that's fun. Uh but Kayleie Schuler, Hello, Hello, thank you so much for having me. You know what they say about unioniced coffee, that's better, It tastes better. That's yeah, that is that is that is what I have heard, much better quality. That is true. Maybe that's the problem that Chris has been having. Yeah, yeah, that's the that's the thing. That's a Chris jumped to jump to conclusions. But you failed, you failed to consider

the uh the coffee question. Um. Anyway, we're gonna be talking about unions and coffee and Starbucks today because there's been a massive wave of Starbucks uh location unionizations around the country. And I like to start by kind of discussing the origin of this like wave of unionization efforts all across the states. Yeah. So, um, you know, I'll just stay right off the bat like, um, legalities, logistics, the nitty gritty is still not my forte and all

of this. UM. So I might not do the best job explaining it, but I'm going to do my best, um, and to get into the origin story of the whole movement. I'm just gonna get into my origin story a little bit um with this effort. So UM. I started working at Starbucks last year, and uh, not long after, I was approached by uh my fellow partner, my friend Tyler de Geer, and he's also one of our committee members here, and he was like, hey, did you hear about what

has happened in Buffalo? And as you guys probably know, uh, Buffalo was the first to unionize um, and so he was really excited about it. I was like, yeah, sounds cool. Probably not my thing though, um and he was like, no, it is, like, just let's talk about it. I was like, all right, fine, we talked about it. I was like, oh, this makes so much sense. We should definitely do this. So um, as far as I know, this uh started in Buffalo. They reached out to Workers United uh because

they knew that this was something they needed and wanted. UM. And then when they successfully unionized, I mean, it just sparked so much inspiration across the country and we hopped on really quick. UM. Other locations in Boston also hopped on not long after, and uh, yeah, it kind of

spread like wildfire. Yeah, it's been wonderful to watch the kind of wave of of of attempts and in some cases, like in a lot of cases of like successful attempts just kind of take a you know, just go all Like it's how fast they've been happening in so many different places around around the country. UM, I'd like to talk I like to talk about like why the Starbucks unionization kind of effort is so important, Like why why

this is? Like of course, like unions are obviously like generally a net good, but like why specifically is it's is it important to unionize these Starbucks local shows? Like what types of like UM issues is the unization trying to kind of solve and give you know, workers better conditions at these at these stores and cafes. So this great question, And first I want to start by saying Starbucks is a great place to work. I say that all the time. I reap the benefits. There are benefits,

good ones. They pay minimum wage or whatever, like, the pay is decent, We have benefits. It's really a lot of people who work at our Starbucks day it's one of the better jobs they've had. And we deserve a union for It's I mean really, in my brain, it's kind of akin to insurance. Right, you have it in case you need it. If an emergency happens, you don't have to pay the whole um e er bill out

of pocket. You've got some coverage coming from somewhere, right, That, at least in my mind, is what this union is for UM. That being said, we also just want to obviously democratize our workplace. We want to have a spot at the bargaining table because we you know, we have HR, we have people to go to. But unions are partners looking out for partners, and that's it. Starbucks looks out for partners and profit. You know, it's a business. It's a huge business. UM. So this would just give us

UM a stronger sense of empowerment. And uh again, I really think of it kind of like insurance, it's just us making sure we're taken care of at all times. Yeah, what what type of kind of you know, whenever the discussion of union's kind of starts at workplaces, there's always like an element of like secrecy and you know, being

worried about you know, different types of suppression. So what types of kind of things that people been doing when the when the union is like trying to get trying to get trying to get off the around to organize, like like are people using like signal chats? Like what what is what is like in this in these stores? How is how are we trying to get more people to like be comfortable with this idea and get like get started with the organizing process. That's a really good question.

And we're still doing that work all the time. That work doesn't really end, especially because um, it's commonly known now so I don't feel as scared to say it. But there are being there is union busting happening. It's happening all the time. Um, and it's scary and it's intimidating, and it's meant to be and it's effective, you know. So, Um, we have a majority yes vote in my store I

already know that, but it also takes upkeep. It takes maintenance. Um, it takes checking in with people and you know, for my money, checking in and saying, hey, how are you feeling about this? Are you doing okay? Like I know that this is scary. I know that you're hearing things like do you have any questions? Um. It takes us doing our due diligence and researching the things that they're saying. Um. And yeah, I mean it's it's kind of a constant

thing as far as like technically how it's done. I mean lots of group chats, just like, way too many group chats. That that has been most of my experience with most most political organizing in general is just way way too many group chats. Yeah, in terms of like what's Tucks is doing to start their like union busting response? Is this website that they have launched? Yeah, I I know you've I know you've tweeted about this, uh about this site. So I would love to love to discuss it. Yeah,

I mean I just went off. I didn't really think much of it, you know, I just I saw it on there and just was like, this is lies. Um. I mean, well, for one. I'm trying to remember everything I've read and tweeted, but the one that's coming to mind is when they say this may affect your relationship with your store manager and it may make it difficult for to me, that is that may depends entirely on

how much um, union busting Starbucks wants to do. If you want to tell our store managers that this will negatively impact our relationship with them, if that's how you want to frame it, then yeah, I probably will. Um. If you if you want to make it more difficult by not negotiating the contract easily with us, um, yeah, then that might happen. It's not that's not a union problem. That's a Starbucks problem that they are framing as a union problem. Um yeah, I can't. What were the other

things that I common it on. I just like to also explain, like what the site is and what it's like trying to do. Oh sure, yeah, I mean it's it's um, it's union investing. It's uh, it's giving it's giving partners the facts that they need to know, you know, like, it's it's we want to make sure that you are

informed before you vote. Know, Um, that's what that is. Yeah, it's this like sleekily designed page that has a list of facts about about organizing and all the reasons why it's going to negatively represent, negatively affect your relationship with the Starbucks Corporation. Oh, this was one of the points. Said, Um, the union may not negotiate for some things you are hoping for, and some things you value now might go away.

That is so ridiculous. That's a threat. Yeah, that's a threat that your well being will be changed, Like we might not negotiate this contract ry nicely with you. That it the union is us. They love to talk about the third party and oh, your your store manager is gonna have to work with a steward. The steward is going to be someone who already works in the store. Yes, the steward is us. The union is us. Why would

we negotiate a contract that doesn't benefit us. That's so silly, it's it's it's it's very typical union besting kind of behavior. And if you know, if they can just if this type of propaganda, you know, can just convince a few people and and and scare and scare only only a couple of the people that will be enough to kind of cause division and shutdown efforts in the store. Right, So that's that's that's all that their goal is is to prevent you know, at least one more store from

not doing it. That's like as long as they do that, then it's then then then it's like successful. Um. Absolutely, And you know, based on how many people work at an individual, individual store, that's not entirely unlikely, right is it'll you know, it will, like you you, union busting efforts do work in a lot of cases, and that's why they still do them. Absolutely absolutely, yeah, And that's why it's it's really important for UM. You know, if

there are any partners listening to this, UM. And partners, by the way, is what you know we call ourselves

at Starbucks. UM. The the social aspect of this within your store, the checking in with your partners and seeing how they're feeling about it, and having UM as many face to face conversations as you can have and really really sticking by each other is really important because yeah, like I said, these UM tactics are tried and true, they're effective, they're intimidating, UM, and so you have to really support each other through that and keep reminding each

other like, no, there's a reason we're doing this. This, this is actually still a good thing, you know, because top of our jobs, and then a lot of partners are in school or they have families, Like we already have a lot going on, and then we have to go into work and be reminded that our desire for a union is not valuable to Starbucks and so they're going to make things harder by doing all the things they're doing. Um, you have to really really be there

for each other through this process. Yeah, I mean that's, you know, solidarity, one of the key of the key tenants of this type of you know, the type of organizing. I know, Chris is a pretty big union appreciator. I mean, I I like unions, but but Chris, Chris really really, really really enjoy So I'm wondering if you if you have anything he likes them so much, he'll He'll even like unionized coffee. He'll be like this coffee still, it

will it will good work. Chris love the some of the there's some stores in Chicago that are unionizing, and I'm like, hmmm, maybe maybe we should check them out. Yeah, you should at least at least check about and say like hi, it'd be like, yeah, great, what's a great thing to do. Um, definitely go to those stores, go up to the counter and offer you or um, order your coffee, and then ask them to write like unions

strong or we love unions as your name. Um, because when the baristas are making the coffee and they still like see that sticker come through, it's we really love that, Chris.

They have great tea there too, ice cream. Yeah, the tea, it's really good, or the chi Like listen, I'm saying information though about like, yeah we have there's finally a store that's like somewhat near Los Angeles where I am that that is announced that they're unionizing, which is exciting, like okay, California, way to join the party late, but

you know it's it's cool ahead. Yeah. One thing I'm interested in is how how big is the shop, Like how many people are are sort of like well, I'm not not just like like just how many people there like could potentially join the union, I mean anyone could. I think we have about twenty. I could be so wrong, but I think we have around twenty partners in our store right now. Um and yeah, any well, yeah, just

about anybody could join that, not anyone who's salaried. Yeah, okay, but I mean that seems that seems pretty common across all the different stores. Is around that it's around like twenty union eligible people per location. Seems roughly accurate based on the stuff I've seen from you know, Seattle to Philadelphia to Boston to Buffalo too, you know, all all places in between. And yeah, so part part of part of like the actual more organizational structure is a linked

to Work as United. Yes, part of the part of the Service Employees International Union UM affiliate kind of a family of unions UM who's kind of led the led the campaign or you know, has been part of the campaign UM to unionize the you know, thousands of locations through the States, and yeah, I think around like eighty locations, including two of the company's flagship ones inside Seattle and

New York, have have joined this this effort. And it does seem like every day there's like more stores popping up. Who are who are who are saying yeah, this is a good idea. This is whether it be to you know, be like, yeah, some of our equipment is old, and it's like, you know, it causes like keep burns because it's not like maintenance properly or being like, yeah, there's a lot of like sexual harassment caused by like some like some like patrons that never gets addressed by management.

Um and or you know saying like yeah, I may be deserved to be paid more than fifteen dollars an hour UM. With rent being you know as high as as high as it is, maybe we should be paying over twenty bucks an hour. I don't know how everybody

else is doing, but my rent situation is interesting. So rent has been ballooning in recent in recent months even it's been it's been really going up, which I mean, I'm sure we'll talk about it at some point on the show here, but yeah, like there's a lot of there's a lot of issues that ares being like, yeah, maybe people should be paid more, people should be at the bargaining table. There's a lot of things to address to make it a safer workplace, to make it a

workplace where you're more respected. Um. And it's uh, it's really nice to see people saying, yeah, I'm not gonna put up with the city more and we can do something about it, because like there are mechanisms to to do this right, that's why it's happening. So that's that's

very uh, very exciting to see is taking place. It really is, and it you know, you make a lot of great points and bring up a lot of the benefits of having a union, and its just like it just surprises me how anti union Starbucks is is period um, because it's just it's like, I don't know, you, Yeah, you paint such a beautiful picture, because it is a beautiful picture to have autonomy and um, respect and empowerment

in the workplace. You know, they they train us to work through the lens of humanity, you know, by their words and U it's pretty humane to let people have a say, a real stay in the workplace, you know. Yeah, I think it kind of exposes that type of you know,

pretty pretty corporate language, that formative. Yeah, exactly. It's um, I am interested in like the other like kind of union busting or soft union busting kind of stuff going on even like before this website in terms of how like man like how like management has been responding, um and how more like like what like what like the local responses to wind stores start talking about this, Yeah, And and another fall up to that is I noticed

that COVID was mentioned on this on this website. Is that being brought up within union busting at all or is that brought I just it was like a huge red flag for me that they used like, well, we helped you during COVID, we were there for you, which really did not. That's like that's like that's like that's like abusive terminology. That is pretty manipulative to be like we we helped you during a pandemic. It's it's like, well, yes, as you should, because yeah, you're the place where I

was employed. I give something to you, you give something to me. And yeah, and as I Twitter ranted in the comment, you know, like with peace and love. We had to beg to get our cafe closed out like we we Like, it wasn't like we just uh cases rose and they came in said, hey guys, we're gonna close it like we had. We were calling and um making a stink and I mean we were talking about striking, but then remembered we're not unionized yet we didn't, but uh yeah, I mean it was we Yeah, we were

really fed up. Um people sitting in there for hours with their faces out, you know, as cases were rising. So UM, Yeah, great point. That's really pretty manipulative, because like you should be helping us through covid. UM. That's not like a that's not a benefit, that's just that's like, yeah, it's not killing people. It's like should should be something that's just kind of always there. Shouldn't shouldn't be an extra,

you know. Yeah. And I mean as far as UM, you a sort of local UM interference, I guess I'll say UM, I do want to say UM. In my case, our store manager, UM, I really care about her. UM. I have a great working relationship with her. I really respect her. She's done a lot of good for our store. UM, and she's really just doing the best she can having conversations with us. UM. She has her opinions and feelings about it, and I just try to listen to them,

and she listens to mine. UM. But there definitely Yeah, I mean as soon as we filed for an election, we started actually as soon as we started organizing, and they sort of caught wind. UM. We started having barista meetings, which are as vague as they sound, UM, And people who had worked there longer than me said, we've never

had these before. UM. Maybe once you know and if years. Um, So we started having all these meetings and not even talking about the union at first, but all of a sudden they wanted to hear from us and fix things in the store and and all this stuff and be super helpful and present. And then there definitely just was a heightened corporate presence in the store. Um, people we've never seen before coming in, like, hey, how are you doing? Want to talk? It's like, no, you're a stranger. I

don't how to talk to you. Um. So that was weird. Um, but yeah, yeah, there's there's definitely definitely just a shift in presence. Um. Again, any of these meetings and um, yeah, it's been interesting. What what do you kind of how do you see like the situation resolving? Like do you do you like how how like do you have has also like yeah, what's like the state of of of your stores specifically? Yeah, so we are on our way

to an election. Um, we've requested an election. Uh so we're really just like in a waiting period for that. We don't know exactly when it's gonna be. We've heard soon, um, but who knows when that is? Um. We yeah, we have some we we had to do a zoom hearing for some of the legalities for things here in Massachusetts. That was interesting. But yeah, so we're we're just waiting

for the election at this point. And the election is what will uh you know, that's when we're gonna cast our yes or no vote UM, and we will find out whether or not we're gonna unionize. And I think we will unionize. It's looking that way. I'm confident, UM, and I really look forward to that. What do you think, UM, Like, what do you see as happening after the vote is done, like, like, assuming it is a vote yes, Like, how do you think this will impact UM working at the store going forward?

It's gonna be interesting and it's going to be an adjustment, right because from the time that we vote and we vote yes, Let's say we vote yes and we're going to unionize, there is it could take a long time. It could take a year. We don't know. It could take more and less UM to get from that vote to you know, what we refer to as the bargaining table UM to negotiating a contract with Starbucks UM. And

in that time there are things UM. And again, if partners are listening, you can do your research on this on the n l r B website. UM there. You know there are things that will be UM different in that waiting period. Right, So, if if Starbucks decides to release um a nationwide UM Spring raise, because why not we love giving you raises, UM, we would be exempt from that because we're in negotiations. Because we're in this

sort of in between spot. Um there, there are little weird things that we might have to just be aware of no going in UM in that sort of interim. Uh yeah, and then eventually, you know, those raises and any other things that we've sort of been waiting on

get brought to the bargaining table. Yeah. I think this is an important thing for people to understand when when you're doing union organizing, right is you know you have this giant push and you have like you have to have the push to get to get either recognition or

to get those the National Labor Relations Board vote. But most unions that go under go under in like before the first contract, and you have to like that's that's something that you know when when you when you talk to people who who are the professionally you can't union organizers, they talk they talk about this constantly, just like you have to hold it together during during that period between your first like bet, between when you when you're when

when you get recognized it when your vote ends that first contract. And it's hard in a lot of ways. Yeah, because the things we're talking about, like management will do you know, they'll they'll intensify the union busting because they're hoping the union will still fall apart. But if you hold it together and if you get that first contract your union, like you know, you you now have a union and you've basically stabilized and at that point, like you now have a seat at the table and you

have to take your seat the table and fight. Yeah, but it's a big responsibility when when you say hold it together during that time, do you do you mean, like, um, just through those changes and that interim and that sort of weird awkward phase, like you have to like just hold it together like mentally and just kind of power

through it. Yeah. Well, also I mean you have to, like you have to just keep making sure everyone's involved, which is something that's difficult because especially after sort of the initially people because people have also had like a job to do it this entire time, right, they're still they're still making coffee, they're still making the podcast, they're still doing whatever, So you still have whatever. Have you ever done? This is sort of beside the point, but

it's fun. Have you guys ever done like the sixteen personalities personality assessment? At some point? I've never done it. It's really fun. I just did it for school, and it's the thing that tells you, like, I'm an i n f J TV and my thing is the advocate. Sophie, what's yours? You look like you had one ready to go. I don't remember what it was, but I remember having to do it like fifteen times in school. Yeah. I also, I also forget what I the one that I did

for when I was in school as well. But I brought it up because I'm thinking I want to send it to my fellow organizers and be like, do this and we can sort of highlight what each other's strengths are um and start playing into those because, like you were saying, Chris, like it really is a team effort, and I think it only really works if you are utilizing people and respecting people's strengths, you know, because not everyone has the same strengths. Like, yeah, you might be

a kick as graphic designer. But like not everyone can do that. You know, maybe they're better at hosting get togethers, or they're better at writing emails or whatever. You know. I think, yeah, playing to strengths is so important in the long run because yeah, it can take a year to get to the negotiating table, which which like is horrible, Like that shouldn't be like it should it shouldn't be

that long. Um And you know, tactics such as like specifically, you know, raising wages around a unionization effort so that people in the union don't get it. That is like another form of union investing. Like that is like like I don't think they haven't thought that through, Like that is that is part of that whole process being like oh yeah you could have a union or you can get higher wages now, Like that's like, that's that is

part of what's going on. It's because they want people to not sign on to have long term benefits, so they're gonna offer these short term benefits. So like it really is like because of how elongated the unionization process can be, it gives a lot of time for people to get burnt out. Um And and combating that like combating being burnt out is one of the most important parts. And yeah, it's it's really it's really challenging sometimes. Oh my gosh, absolutely, I mean I love that conversation. I'm

like a mental health dweeb. Um, it's it's my it's what my my podcast is called Your Messy Friend, and that's basically all I talk about is mental health. And yeah, the burnout, I mean, I'm recovering for burnout right now. You know, Um, it's very real. You have to make sure that you know, while you're taking care of everybody else and making these efforts, like you have to make sure that you are checking with yourself every day and making sure your needs are being met because giving from

an empty tank does not last long. As I'm sure you guys know. Yeah, if you uh, if if you're, if you're, if the water in your espresso machine is out, then nothing can flow through to make this for you exactly. See. It was what an amazingly crafted metaphor. I just not tortured it at all anyway. So what is the like turnover rate at the store? Like, like, how how quickly are people coming in and out of jobs? And how

has that been affecting organizing. The cool question. Um, we haven't had a ton of people leave since I got there, I mean, and I definitely I can pretty confidently say none of those had to do with unionizing. Um, it was all for just like different reasons. Um, we've had quite a few more people come in recently, and I would say that, Um. I mean it's it's weird because our current store manager, uh was great. She was hired around the same time that we really started amping up

union stuff. And you know, it's almost unfortunate because I think she thought it was it was about her and it just so wasn't you know. Um. But yeah, so it's who knows if it was just because she was there now or because of the union stuff or both. But uh, they did start hiring quite a few more people, um, around the time that we started organizing, And yeah, I mean it's you have to walk this fine line when

you have new people coming in. Of course, you want to get to them and give them your info um or at least give them resources to look into before corporate gets to them. UM. But then you also they're they're learning a new job. It's really fast paced and overwhelming, Like you have to be careful not to totally overwhelm them either. I mean that that's really something I've just tried to keep in mind throughout the whole process. Is like when my friend Tyler approached me, I was like,

I don't know what this is. I don't I don't know if this is necessary for me. And now I'm on the committee, you know, so you know what I mean. Like, it's that thing where I'm like, Okay, if I could be convinced, maybe anyone can. All right, is there um any direct action that people who are listening or any call to action you have for us that we can prot to our listeners or links or anything that you think would be useful for our people to know. That's

a cool idea. Yeah, thanks. Um. Like we mentioned before, if you want to just like stop by your local unionizing Starbucks and get a coffee with the name, you know, unionized or union strong. That like that in person support, especially when your first organizing, is really really helpful. Even just stopping by to drop off a card or say hey,

good luck with unionizing. Um, that really means a lot. Um. You can follow SB Workers United on Instagram and Twitter and just engage with us UM reach out if you need info about how to organize the people on Instagram or so, I mean on all the platforms are just like so on top of responding UM and uh, website. I think we have a website, I would assume, so I would assume at this point. Yeah, I mean, we have a pretty pop in Instagram and Twitter, but UM, yeah,

I don't. I don't think I'm forgetting anything. I think that's that's about it. UM, and just making noise on online is also really helpful. You know, I love when people comment on Starbucks posts and they're like, yeah, how about unions though, yeah union. The website is s B workers United dot org affiliated with the Workers United and

the Starbucks. You know, I think effort, which has ways to donate or by by merch in support of the union and that kind of stuff, which funds I'll go to the go to the campaign and you know, just in case it wasn't clear, like and this is something you'll hear from Starbucks. Is all of this about the third party and Workers United is going to do this

and that, blah blah blah. We essentially, you know, we work with that they promote our cause you know what I mean, they're here to support our mission and our goals. I mean, you'd be amazed by how much partners do for this, you know, united so much. But we we do the nitty gritty every day, communicating with each other. We're communicating nationally now we have a platform for that.

Um and yeah, it's really cool and so like they are, they're kind of like, I don't know, the supporting beams of of everything we're doing, you know, it's us, yeah, but like the actual makeup of it definitely is with Starbucks employees, you know, and all the people I've been in like Twitter conversations with our d m s who are involved. It's like, yeah, like everyone who's like actively involved in doing it all has worked in a Starbucks before, um and still and still are like it is. It

is definitely being led by the workers. Um and yeah, that's really great and really crucial. Um. Do you have any do you have any other plugables either for yourself or for yeah, anything else plug your Yeah, thanks guys, Um, this was really fun. Thank you for having me on. I love podcasting. UM. So yeah, I mentioned sp Workers United on Instagram and Twitter. Make sure you give them a follow, follow Barista's you find along the way. Who

are you know speaking up about this? Show them your support. Um, my podcast is called your Messy Friend. You can find me. I think wherever you get your podcasts, definitely Spotify that's what I use. UM and yeah that's about it. Well, thank you so much Kayleie for joining us today. You talked about Starbucks and unions. UM, follow us online on Twitter, Instagram, at Happened Here pod and cool Zone Media and I think that does it? Does it for us? I can't

wait for y'all to win. Yeah, absolutely can't. Can't. Can't wait for you guys to win. As soon as as soon as Portland locations start going, I'll definitely go in and support. But until then I will make coffee alone in my my, my, my lonely, my my lonely espresso machine. Um. But yeah, thank you, thank you so much for for coming on to talk. Thank you, thank you so much. Welcome to It could Happen Here, a podcast about things falling apart and even occasionally about trying to put them

back together. Today, as is too often the case, we're going to be focused more on the falling apart thing, because today we are talking about the situation in Ukraine. UM, it is as I I type or not type because I'm not writing, but you know, you get how I'm used to thinking. As I say this. Russian troops have just moved in to two regions in eastern Ukraine that have been occupied by what are generally called Russian backed

separatists since two thousand and fourteen. Vladimir Putin gave a speech that I will be we'll be talking about a bit with our guest um and announced his intention to recognize those breakaway sections of the country as independent republics. Uh. And the area that he has chosen to recognize includes about sevent territory that is currently occupied and held by the Ukrainian government. So it's a big mess. UH. This is some have said like a soft version of the

invasion that people were expecting. I think it's probably more accurate to say it's a slow start, um, compared to what is potentially possible and very likely coming in the future. To talk more about this and about being an anarchist kind of trapped in between you know, NATO and Russia and everything that's flinging around right now. Is Ukrainian journalist Romeo Kokratski Romeo, Welcome to the show. Thanks a lot, thanks for having me. Been a big fan of yours.

So it's an honor to be here. And you are in your in Kiev right now, right? Yeah? Correct? And and how is everybody keeps asking this all around? But how is the mood? Um? As you know, to the extent that there's a way of saying that, like I've i've, you know, have things kind of taking a turn since

Putin actually made his first big play. I mean, as much as journalists like to say, there is no magic to instantly bull every resident in the city to find out, Yeah, walk around and talk to everybody, just like all the four million or whatever citizens in the city. Let me just let me just ask him. Um. But like, there definitely has been a turning point. Um. Like one of the big refrains that I've seen, like personally and everyone has been saying, right, is that Ukrainians are so calm.

Look at these pictures of them like shopping in malls and like going to school. What else are you supposed to do? What else are we supposed to do? But I mean that this true, people have been calmed. But since yesterday evening there definitely has been a shift, um, and even casual conversation, uh in key of like I was sitting, to paraphrase a famous columnists usual framing, I was sitting in a cafe and overhearing the wait staff

chat amongst themselves. Um, and obviously the the the whole conversation is, oh is Putin going to push into Kiev? And anecdotally we're semi anecdotally, I guess, Um, apartment prices in the western cities like in Lviv and uge World have really spiped up, like incredibly so that people are I wouldn't call that. That's a depressing way to pay attention to, that a reason to pay attention to that, Like, I wouldn't call it a mass panic. Um. There's no

like bank runs, no, like all the stores are stocked. No, one's like hoarding. Um. But at the same time, there is a study trickle of people going west and kind of making plans at this point. Yeah, and UM, So this to kind of give people a little bit more context before we get into some of the more political dimensions of this um. Right now, there has not been a massive escalation um of violence outside of the areas

where there have been fighting for several years. You know, there has been an escalation on the front line that's existed since UM, but there has not been like troops pouring across the border in other areas and stuff. And

that's obviously probably the number one worry. UM. It looks like what's about to happen is or at least it's hard to say, because Putin has recognized the borders of this breakaway part of Ukraine as significantly larger than the area they actually control, and he has moved troops, Russian active duty troops into that area. Now, Russian troops, I'm from what I've heard about three thousand have been in the breakaway areas for years now, UM, but a significant yeah,

a significant number have been added now. And obviously the fear is that because he has recognized the territory of these these quote unquote in his terms breakaway republics is being much larger than what they control, that Russian troops are going to participate with the separatists UM in attacking and taking those territories from the Ukrainian government. UM. That's

one concern. Obviously. The the concern attached to that is that it would be not at all inconceivable for a conflict that started that way to spread to a much wider part of Ukraine. Um, this is all coming alongside a speech Putin gave that, unfortunately, is going to be one of those things people here about in history books. Um. Yeah, out of it, God damn mind. And it's one of

those things. We will talk some more about how the Western left sometimes I don't want to be like because this is also largely the the online left, but how the online left talks about Putin sometimes. This was not a I want to return to the Soviet Union at speech. This was I want to return to czarist Russia's borders type speech. Like the guy has the Czarist imperial crest emblazoned on the gates to his palace. So I'm really

not sure what people would have expected. And unfortunately he's better at his job than any of the last tsars were because he's he's achieved a notable amount of success towards that goal already. Um, and yeah, he he a number of things that were it's one of those. Like one of the things he said, which is a line that folks like him in Russia have been saying for a while, is that Ukraine. The existence of Ukraine as

an independent polity is a mistake. And as an anarchist, you know, there's this like, well, yeah, I don't I don't like the Ukrainian state. I don't like any state in particular. But if you're if your only disagreement is with the statehood of Ukraine and you're fine with the statehod of Russia, you know, then then perhaps what you actually think is that people in Ukraine should not have any autonomy to disagree with the government in Moscow. Um.

And I think that's the case here. Um. There's a there's similarities between how Putin and those like him in Russia treat Ukrainians um with how for example, the Turks treat Kurds in the southern part of the country. There's this this thing you'll hear a lot from Turkey, where like, there's no Kurds in Turkey, They're they're mountain Turk who

have lost their their language. And there's this denial from Putin in the Russians that Ukrainians are a people, that they exist, and this this is a something that has translated. Most people have heard versions of this, and just any of the coverage you've heard of Ukraine if you've ever

heard of it referred to as the Ukraine. What that is is part of a very old um line that kind of exists to allow Russians to deny the existence of Ukrainians as a people and make it make it seem more like it's just kind of a geographic region, which is not the case. And why you wouldn't refer to you wouldn't call it the Ukraine anymore than you would call it the Canada. Um, it just isn't the

way you, you say, should say that. But um. Yeah, So I think that's at least enough of a background to get into the real media what we want to talk about. So, and I'm just gonna kind of open this up to you to chat about what you'd like to say and what you think needs to be gotten across to the international left, because internationalism is something we value a lot here and it has been hard to

find in this conflict. Yeah, Like, growing up in the York in the nineties, one of the core values I kind of absorbed, I guess through osmosis is the value that every single person I met, regardless of whatever corner of the world they came from, is the exact scene beings me, UM, and it wasn't. And and that kind of realization was one of the things that I guess I wouldn't say pushed, but UM conspired to to turn

me into a leftist, a socialist Marxist UM. And part of that, especially when I was learning about what the hell all these isms were, UM, was internationalism, the idea that well, our struggle isn't within the the fabricated borders of what ever UM polity has has decided to impose their their authority. UM. But internationally, every single worker is the same as every other worker. We're all struggling with the same issues, we're all fighting the same forces, UM,

and generally speaking, we have the same enemies. Ah. Now fast forward to two h I go online and what do I see? Well, Ukrainians are all Nazis or Ukraine shouldn't exist, or how can we support either of those? It's two fascist states fighting each other. And I'm sorry, Ukraine has got a population of forty four million. You want to tell me that every single one of those forty four million or Nazis Like people didn't even say

that about Germany. They were literally the Nazi state, I mean the United States, um for that man like, we had four years of Trump and openly fascist authoritarian lee and no one seems to say, well, I guess the U s should be bombed. Well, I guess there are some. I mean, there's definitely there's definitely people that yeah, but generally speaking that's not exactly the view that people take right. Um.

So it's it's been a long process of disappointment. Well, I say, long, Um, there's always been the kind of well what are these people really think about Ukraine? But breaft of such a strong impetus to take a side, I guess, um, it hasn't been in the forefront. And now every day I see people that I would have considered comrades, that I would have considered um friends and brothers, just kind of turned their back on me. Because I live here, right, any any aggression, any action that's taken

will literally affect me physically sitting here and cue. Um. So it's been it's been really really immensely disheartening to see that every single value UM that I thought the Left was supposed to value, that that I thought the left was built on um by people with rows emojis or hammering sickles in their user names or whatever the hell it is, and we should probably talk about some of why this is and what the what the history

is here. So, the most kind of direct thing that people can point to when they when they call Ukraine a fascist state or when they talk about this is the existence of the ass Off Battalion the AS of

Italian as a paramilitary organization. That means it's it's not officially a part of the governmental military structure, but it it does receive it has received arms from the government and it UH functions as part of Ukraine's defense forces UM for the for the purposes of fighting off the Russian back separatists UM and the AS of Italian and Nazis. There's there's you know, the the you can There's been

a tremendous amount of reporting on that. On that matter, it's a big problem in the Ukrainian government deserves a significant amount of criticism for the degree to which as

OFF has been allowed to continue existing UM. But there's also a lot that gets left out when people focus on that, including the fact that, for example, the political wing of as Off right sector, which is kind of the that it would be fair to call that the umbrella term for like the far right parties in the Ukraini Ukrainian government have been pretty effectively siloed away from political power through very active measures to about like what is one percent of um like representation, and so it

didn't actually pass the threshold tantor the new barliament. Yeah, they're they're nonentity politically, they're just non popular there. Um campaigns failed, their models fail, their agitation fails. Ukrainians do not want to vote for Nazis. Yeah, and it's it is.

It is a an ugly situation. I I remember talking with when I was reporting on the mightn uprisings, which is when, again for people who aren't up on recent Ukrainian history, they had a president who tried to do a dictatorship um, and people rose up and fought him in the streets. Um. It was a very gnarly time.

About two hundred people were shot by government forces. Um. And eventually the president was forced to flee the country, which is what precipitated everything that's happening now, because that president was pretty closely tied with Putin and the people fighting him. UM, we're not all they were not pro NATO rebels, but they were more definitely more supportive of closer ties with Western Europe than they were with Russia. UM. And that again, those are kind of the precipitating events

for everything that happened that's happening now. Um. And some of the people who were fighting the president's forces were fascists. UM. And it's one of those things. I remember talking with protesters at the time who were like, well, am I supposed to get in fight with them at the same time as I'm trying not to get shot by riot police. It's like, what what do you expect me to do? And it is a nasty situation, and it's one of

those things. UM. I don't know, Like I don't know what to tell people about that, because it's it's it's ugly, and it's uncomfortable and it's messy. And that's also Ukrainian history. There's a lot of ugly, uncomfortable, messy things here is there's with every country's history. It doesn't mean people in Kiev deserve to have their housing blocks pounded by Russian artillery. Doesn't mean that people in Vadivka deserve to have their

homes pounded by artillery. UM. And whatever criticisms you want to make about how the Russian government or how the Ukrainian government has handled as Off, And there are many criticisms to make that's not really relevant to the people living in these areas having their homes destroyed on a daily basis by mortar fire. I just want to make like a couple of things really clear. The as Off

Battallion is like a thousand guys like Macs. And the reason, one of the reasons at least that they rose to such prominence in the beginning wasn't only there um ability to mobilize in the early stages of the Russian war against Ukraine. It was also because they had very strong financial backing um from the former Interior Minister um Arsenivakav.

And Ivakav is no longer in power, UH. And one of the things you can see immediately was the like almost nullifying of fascist street marshes and fascist demonstrations UM in Kiev outside the President's office. That all vanished because more like in Ukraine, ideology is not very strong. And this is something UM that I've noticed a lot of people UH from the US in Europe have trouble understanding about Ukrainian politics. People here are not really ideological. Our

parties don't map UM. Aside from a couple of outliers like rights actor UM, it doesn't really map to any left right access UM. People typically will always want the same policies, like they always want a pension, they always want UM universal healthcare to be better, they always want the roads fixed. UM generally policy something most Ukrainians actually agree on UM. As a result, most of our elections are purely personality based. That's one of the reasons m

Zelenski Voladimer's Lenski Orur current president. One was because he was a well known comedian. Yeah, and people liked his personality, and he put out a whole TV show as a pr stunt um before launching his campaign, and people voted for that personality the on screen h And so when there was far right activity, and again I want to stress that that activity, even the street activity, has almost disappear, it's because the far right is typically used in Ukraine

as a political tool by one. All of our were one interest group against another. That's why when the money disappeared, they disappeared. Because the leaderships, the leadership of these fascist groups typically speaking, we're not UM that ideological themselves. But they did like having USUV s and they did like buying guns and um, hiring hookers and doing drugs. Like they liked the money and that's why they did it.

And they would convince a bunch of teenagers to go out and wave a couple of torches and march or chant. But these guys were really purely in for the money. Um. And again you can tell that because when their financial backer disappeared there in order to be found. Yeah, And it's one of those one of the things that is very frustrating to me. I can't remember one of the earliest projects that I did that was like a for belling cat as we were there was a Pride march

in Kiev that got attacked by Nazis. This was a couple of years back, and we were kind of trying to identify the individu Jewel fascists who are like beating people in the street, and it's spending hours pouring over that footage. It makes it incredibly frustrating that there are people outside of the country boiling it down to while all of those people are fascists, all of those people are part of a fascist state, and it's like no a lot of those people. Quite a few Ukrainians have

fought Nazis in the streets, you know. Um, that's a reality of the situation. And it's it's um and it it's it's ugly in part because if you actually want to look at what's been happening, uh with the Russian back separatists, there's a lot of fascists over there. Um, there's a lot of paramilitary organizations and like far right groups that have been used by the Russian government. Yeah, yeah, literally literally because they're fascist leader Yeah, like Lagner, like

many Nazis. It's it's it's hard to to understand to sleep from my perspective, um, because not only is Russian fascism have far more influence on Russian policy than any Ukrainian fascists has ever had in Ukrainian policy. Um, it's also that the Russian project and the narrative they use. Um. There there's this joke they call are not really joke, a slurred they call they call Ukrainians Nazi's been darists, um.

For those who don't open Darrow was a Ukrainian nationalist leader partisan fought against the Soviets UH, and he his organization was implicated in quite a few war crimes, significant number of war crimes, war crimes. UH so clearly been near himself, probably not a great guy, Yeah, but to delegitimize all Ukrainian kind of independence movements that I've propped up over the years, the Soviet government and now the Russian government has always he's insisted that there is no

legitimate way for Ukraine to be independent. We're all Nazi Bandarists no matter what. And that's why you had UM. There's a picture a couple of days ago of a solidarity marshin Kiev UM with UH some of Kiev's LGBT community holding up Bandara's flags, not because they're gay Nazis, because it's a way of, yeah, retaking this slur back

from the Russians. And it's all part of the complicating factor here is that because of how geo politics worked out in that period of time, there are very uncomfortable but kind of inextricable ties between UH Ukrainian, the basic idea of Ukraine being a nation independent from Russia and anti communism, and because of what was going on in anti communism in that period of time, we're talking the

thirties and forties. It means that a decent number of those early Ukrainian nationalists were either directly implicated with the Nazis like Bandera, or at least had uncomfortable ties. And that's a messy part of history that shouldn't be shied away from. But for example, the same thing is true

of Finland. Like you can say the exact same thing about sucking Finnish nationalism, Finnish sovereignty and whatnot, um, And people don't call Finland a Nazi nation, um even though Yeah, the fact that they were stuck between the USSR and Nazi Germany means that there were a lot of Fins in that period of time who made some real fucked

up choices, um like. But also there's a lot that has to be like, you can't adequately discuss why those choices were made if you don't talk about, for example, the holodomor you know, which was the starvation genocide of several million Ukrainians by the Soviet government. Like people to go back even further, um and to I don't know, Bernard, my leftist production a little bit, if you go back to the Civil War itself, where um, a lot of this started most of the nationalist groups, I would say

nearly all of them. There were one or two monarchists minor monarchist groups in Ukraine, but the grand majority of them were in fact socialism or socialist. They had like the hammer and sickle and wheat on their currency and everything, because at the time that was what one votes UH

from the peasantry. But when the Bolsheviks crushed every independent Ukrainian social movement in exchange for bureaucrats that they imported from the Empire and just shoved into Ukrainian cities, H, Well, then you had Ukrainians that wanted to be independent and wanted to have a better life than under the Tsar. Well, now suddenly they don't even have that support um from

the Bolsheviks UH. And obviously, as a Ukrainian UM, I can't talk about this without bringing up Nestro Macnu, who was a anarchist leader, the leader of the Ukrainian Black Army UM during the Civil war. And what happened to them, Well, the Bolsheviks betrayed them and killed all of them, and of course the movement UH and then smeared them all

is UM. How to file rapist cannibals if I remember correctly. Yeah, Yeah, there's a lot of of of disinformation you can find about that time, just like today, you know, only the names have changed exactly. So if there is no other outlet for Ukrainian nationalism and the group that you thought maybe an ally in UH destroying the empire in granting you self determination, turns out to be a continuation of

that exact empire. Well it's pretty logical. Maybe not right, but it is pretty logical for people go to the

for people to go to the other extremes. And it's one of those One of the things I think that should be noted more, as we talked about earlier, is that one of these stories of Ukrainian politics, particularly in the last got close to a decade since the Maidan, is that mainstream Ukrainian political leaders and Ukrainian voters have overwhelmingly rejected that sort of nationalism this time around, UM and have gone out of their way to silo it out of active political power, UM in a way that

one could argue is more successful than has been done in the United States. UM. And absolutely we didn't ye Trump, Yeah, no, you get you guys basically elected John Stewart. UM. Pretty much I mean that was his Um. Yeah, it was his whole thing. He put on satirical political sketches, that was the entire show. Um. We did basically elect John Stewart. And you know, I have my criticisms of Zelenski, um

as a lot of people do. Uh. And one of the things we love saying in Ukraine whenever people are like, oh, look at all the look at all the Nazis there, We're so not We're so anti semitic that we elected a Jewish comedian that's how. That's how anti semitic we are. That we have huge minorris standing in the middle of Kiev during the high holidays, that's how. That's how anti

semitic we are. Yeah. And and Zelinski's uh prime minister is also a Jewish Man, which makes Ukraine the second country in the world to have a Jewish president and prime minister. Um. Yeah, like we don't care because it's not it doesn't even come up in campaigns like what even when Romney was running uc Democratic campaigns, um painting is a scary Mormon or the ads implying in a moment you don't even have that level of religious antipathy

in Ukraine. It's it's it's just a much more complicated We're actually talking about the problems of the far right and and to fascism, you know, in Ukraine. It's a much more complicated story than a lot of people on you know, social media or whatnot want to give it credit to because it's just easy to some things up in one sentence and not have to care about a looming humanitarian catastrophe. But that is what we are looking at.

If this invasion, it will be bad. If Russia uses active forces in order to take the remainder of those two provinces from the Ukrainian government, it will be a nightmare of almost unimaginable consequence. If the invasion proceeds on the wider scale that is possible at this point, um. And it is no, no no, no, please yeah. UM. I've been a dumor on this basically since I first heard about the build up, um, because Putin has made it very clear over the years what he considers Ukraine to be.

Like you mentioned, he doesn't think that Ukraine should exist as like a polity. Um. And as a result, I have pretty much this whole time been pretty sure that he's going to attack you. Um. And now we're coming to a very definite tipping point. Um. Just today, Putin's made a lot of moves. UM. Like you mentioned, he authorized military force to be used um in the Damas.

And actually he's gone further. He's authorized military force to be used abroad, UH, which I mean obviously that means Ukraine where else that's where his like the about I think seven of the entire Russian Army is currently around Ukraine or close enough that they can reinforce um without a lot of yeah, at least of the active duty, because the Russian military there's a small actually competent right yeah, yeah, yes,

but the professional the contract soldiers, yes, Um. And especially on the northern border, Uh, there are a lot of battalion attach groups that are basically sitting and waiting, I

guess for whatever the order will be eventually, um. And in Belarus, And since Putin has given this authorization to operate abroad, and he stated that he recognizes these puppet authorities as I qual him um that he recognizes their borders as the entirety of the Donetsk luconsk o BLUs, which again only a third of those territories are under the de facto control of public authorities. Two thirds of both provinces are still under Ukrainian government control, including the

the critical port city of Marieuple. And now that Putin has authorized forced to be used abroad, well, it's kind of I mean, at least it is incredibly obvious to me what the next steps are from the Russian perspective. If I want to subjectate you right, um, and I think a big failing he is people in the West, especially the western left, um, no, very little of for example, the Chessian Wars, oh god, especially the Second War, and what happened to Rosnie, Yeah, Africa during that war, and

what the Russians did the subjects that population. And if anyone thinks that Putin treasures Ukrainian lives any more than he did Chechen lives, then I've got a bridge of the proto sell them. Though you should act now because the valley's gonna drop real fast. Yeah, And it's one of those if you, as a good leftist, have spent a significant amount of time reading about the horrific crimes

of of imperialist nations in Africa and Southeast Asia. In the America's um, what the Russian Federation did there is on that scale. It's it's absolutely on that scale. It was. It was a titanically ugly war. UM. And I mean any modernly you can look at what they did in Syria yea, or what they are doing in Syria, what they continue to do in Syria. UM. But as it turns out, UM, Syrians learned this lesson that I am learning now about big portions of the UM Western left

a long time ago. Yeah, which is that if you can find, for example, some Syrian rebels who are shitty and Islamists or whatever, you can tar every single person whoever stood up against Bashar al assad as A as a terrorist UM, which is really easy, especially if you're getting paid Kremlin money to advance that line and you your name is Ben Norton. This brings us to the place where there really aren't clear answers, which is like

what can be done? And it is one of those things where it's like, well, uh, that's not an easy question, because you do have to when you start grappling with like all right, well, like should what should NATO do? What should other European non NATO nations do? Like what what what is actually capable of? Like potentially altering or disrupting the courses of action here while we're talking about

the Russian state, which has a lot of nukes. Um, we're talking about a situation that could spiral out of control in a way that very few situations globally are capable of potentially spiring spiraling out of control. And so it is a not a situation where anyone who tells you this is clearly the thing to do that will work, is I think trying to is probably full of ship and a little unhinged um because this is a real

fucking ugly one. Um. But some of what has been done, Um, we just got the news today that I think we both found surprising, but it is very positive that the Germans have canceled construction of the Nord Stream to pipeline, which is a gas pipeline from Russia into the EU.

Um that a lot of folks were saying Germany was not going to take any sort of stances, solid stances on Ukraine's behalf because of that pipeline, because of how Germany, along with a lot of Western Europe, is tremendously reliant upon Russian gas exports, um for just like keeping themselves heated in the winter. UM, so that's a positive move. I I tend to be critical of the ability of

sanctions to do much. UM. And if we're looking historically at sanctions, particularly to how they're most often implied, they have a tendency to just harm regular people more than they have to do it. Like we can look at the sanctions in Iraq right which which were part of why something like a million people starved. Um. We are talking about different kinds of sanctions in general, and we're talking about the sanctions being imposed by NATO countries against

the Russian state right now. They're largely sanctions against members of the Duma. UM, There's there's a lot. It's not the same as looking at like what was being done to Saddam's Iraq. That said, I'm still very hesitant to say I think that sanctions are going to disrupt Putin's course of action. I'm curious what you think can and should be done here, you know, like what is do you have any kind of clear idea in your own head about what might have a disruptive effect on on

what Putin is doing? Learned to teleport and shoot Putin in the head with a nimillionator. I mean that would be that'd be great. There's there's a can we that tear had we that teleportation capacity, there would be a list. You know, put my skill points into that. But realistically speaking, the Russian state is authitarian. It doesn't really care what its own citizens think. It definitely doesn't care what other people think. However, Um, Russia has been, at least in

um the modern realm, relatively image conscious. UM. Which is why I think one thing that could work, for example or not, could work, but would perhaps force the Russian state to consider its actions a little bit more carefully. And I want to be very clear when I talk about the Russian state, I'm talking about Putin himself. Yeah, the government. He has no there's no like other decision

makers in Russia. And that was actually perfectly encapsulated um during his speech the other day where he just outright, um like eviscerated the head of his foreign intelligence service. I'm live TV for the whole world to see just utterly humiliated the guy for no real reason, just because he can and you could see that. And we're talking about Russia's top spy. I mean, beyond Puttin himself stammering like a frightened school child when Puttin addressed him, just

with just a hint of sharpness. Um. So when I say to the Russian state, I'm referring literally to the body in prison of of Vladiman Prune Um. And like, honestly, yeah, I would love to see people pick at Russian embassies and make demonstrations and marches and so on. Um. Do I think that will have a practical real effect, to be honest, No, say with the sanctions. Um, I'm sure Putin's pet oligarchs and members of his party and the

uh the people that in theory keep him in power. Um, the oligarchs, the the polimentarians, the mafia lords and so on. I'm sure they're gonna be pretty mift if their yachts and their multimillion dollar properties in Miami and New York, in London and the villasm the French Riviera when when all that gets taken, I'm sure they'll they'll be pretty annoyed. Um. But I don't think Putin cares. I think that he has a really irrational um desire to subjugate Eve specifically, Um.

He sees Kiev as um what we call in Russian, the mother of all Russian cities. Yeah, it's the um the place of the Kievan Ruce. Yeah, the word Russian comes from Kievan Ruce, you know, exactly exactly. And I just don't think that Putin is going to turn away from that goal because a couple of his buddies are complaining that they're mega yachts got taken in by the British authorities or whatever. Nor do I think they're gonna care that. You know, there are a couple of marchers

outside of embassies in New Yorker something. Um, but that may help spur the world as a whole, the international community into taking a harder line stance against because Simeon comes time and again. Um, Like, the guy's a gangster, he's he's like a security service thug. If you've ever like interacted with like a petty like sergeant, police sergeant or something that has just a bit of authority and prety much show imunity that that's put into a te um.

The dude thinks he's over educated, uh and the cleverest nimble, Yeah, I think, But for really the way he talks, in the way he's acts, he's just a bully. He's he's he's got the same basic personality as like Villan Wether, you know, the fucking head of the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department. He's like, not like a beat cop, but like one of the cops who rises to run a union or run a city police department. Yeah, he's good at consolidating power.

He's good at at exercising organizing others to exercise violence on his behalf. But yeah, at the end of the day, he is primarily a bully. And it's one of those Um, I don't know, Like, when it comes to arms shipments, that is a historically Again, if you look at the history of partic like let's just say specifically NATO shipping arms places most of the time, that does not improve

the situation for people in that country. That that has been a historical reality of arms Shipment's not just with NATO as a general rule everywhere, when you ship more guns into an area, that that rarely improves quality of life. Um. But we are not talking about a country that has had any kind of centralized political legitimacy or what not collapse. You're not talking about a country that is in the

middle of tearing itself apart between thirty or forty different sides. Um, it's not the same situation as well, let's ship a bunch of guns to Libya, you know. Um. It just isn't there different histories, different political realities on the ground. I don't know that I actually think any amount of arms shipments would dissuade Putin from advancing either. Um. But

I I don't know what else to do. I certainly am not against the idea of like, Okay, guys have some A G T M s, you know, have some wire guided missiles, have some javelins, um, because like, what else are you gonna do? Um? I mean, we're not going to and I'm certainly not saying we should send US troops in um because again we have to consider the nuclear situation too. UM. What do you think is?

Where are your thoughts there? Um? Because this is something that I I'm very I'm very mixed on, although again I'm broadly fine with Yeah, I mean, at least give people the ability to fight back. Yeah, it's a difficult one, especially, like you noted, the military industrial complex has very rarely

improved any situation the world anywhere. Yep, this might be one of the few exceptions, UM, because the fact is that Ukraine doesn't really have the tools to defend these to defend ourselves we have, UM, or at least our government claims that we have the strongest army in Europe, which, to be honest, with all the defense cuts that Europe can come, that may be true at least on the ground sense. Certainly the most combat experienced army in here. Yeah, absolutely, UM.

But what we lack entirely is air power and air defense UM. And what Russia has in spades is air power and air defense. And as we saw UM when the US invaded Rock, Well, you can destroy conventional army in a couple of days by just bombing the ship out of it uh. And the Russians have quite a few missiles UM aimed straight at Kiev and quite a view planes waiting on standby, I presume to bomb the ship out of Kiev. Uh. And it would be nice to have some way to to defend ourselves against that UM.

But again there's there's not much that can be sent. Yeah. Of course stingers and javelins and so on, UM. That will all help raise the costs of the occupation that follows the initial bombardment But if Putin goes for the strategy that Assade has used in Syria, which is bomb the living ship out of every civilian residential area in the city until the people just submit or are all dead, um, well, there's not really too much we can do about that.

And that is like, there is a lot that individual that that trained and motivated soldiers with small arms and munitions like javelins can do even to resist a country with with overwhelming air power. The corollary to that is that in doing that a lot of stuff, everyone around

them dies, the city is turned into a graveyard. Um. I've I've seen that with my own eyes, and that's that's I mean, got to be the thing if you're looking at this with any kind of reasonable lies and not just like trying to find a political angle to support that has to be your main concern is that the potential here is for a tremendous loss of life

and also for the creation of millions of refugees. Um. And this is something in another of audio clip that you published a bit earlier on Twitter you say, which is that like, if this goes as badly as it can, no matter what your politics are, this will become your problem. Yeah, I stand behind that absolutely, because there are a lot of Ukrainians and while most of us have no desire to live under the Russian yoke, the majority of us are not trained fighters. Were just people, just regular people.

And I know, especially in the US, UM, with our like out of control gun culture, imagining like they're the singular guy, you know, they're they're the macho man with with all the guns, take down the government all by themselves. I'm sorry, it's a fantasy. It's a fiction. Um, that is how things work. Uh. And quite frankly, most people

are not psychologically suited to combat. That's why armies take so long to break soldiers down to teach them to murder people, because that is not something humans do naturally. And the majority of people subjected to that kind of violence will run. And again, there are forty four million of us, and they will run and run and run. Pretty much everyone in the world. You saw this with Syria,

sell this with Libya. Um, you've seen this pretty much with every single place that has experienced massive violence in the modern world. Um, that's the reaction. Yeah, and that's when we run. We bring all of our biases and

problems and cultural predilections to you m hm. And it's yeah, I mean that's that's really that out to end on and it is you get a lot of folks you know who who rightly you know, focus on and think a lot about revolutionary struggles in places like Vietnam and um in an Afghanistan and will point out that like, well, you don't need to have as advanced to military as your opponent to win. And again, just the corollary to that, all, Yeah, the corollary to that is that like, yeah, but millions

of people die. Millions of people died in Afghanistan, millions of people died in Vietnam. Um, that's that, that is the reality. Yeah, you can resist an imperial power with minimal technology, but you're not going to leave that fight with a family alive still, you know, Like that's that's how it goes. Um. So let's all say a little prayer for I don't know, peace, Uh, I hope the

worst doesn't happen. Um. What has there been kind of mobilization that you've seen within the the activist the anarchist community and in Kiev, um to you know, any kind of mutual aid stuff like or is it just one of those situations where it hasn't started happening yet and nobody really knows what would even be useful to do if it does. I'll say this, Um, it may come as a little bit of a shock, but anarchists not

typically the best organised. Yeah. Um. Specifically, like a lot of my UH friends who are active in the anarchist um movement in Ukraine have simply joined the territorial defense battalions or the regular army and will simply fight as soldiers. Um. There has been a very strong I don't know if you called denial um. A colleague of mine used the term doomed optimism, and I really like the side of that,

so let's go with that. Yeah, there's been this really strong doomed optimism amongst Ukrainians that the worst will not happen and there's no real reason to prepare for anything, because well, things are going to be fine. Um. And that's what our government tells us as well, things are going to be fine. They don't see any massive attack groups or I mean, I feel like that's contradicted by the the open source intelligence that I've been looking at. But I I am just one guy. I obviously don't

have the intelligence apparatus of a nation state. UM. So I mean maybe they're right, Um, but generally speaking, people have just been joining the army, going to um tactical trainings. Um. But this is all very basic stuff like going the woods, learn how to set up camp and you know, clean a rifle kind of kind of things. Um. Nothing like combat training, because where would you get that except by

joining the army and going to the front. Yeah, it's the kind of training that might keep in the event of a full conflict when out of ten of those people alive long enough to learn how to fight. Yeah, and and that might be worth it. Yeah, I mean yeah, if you're talking about like yes, not not to say people shouldn't be doing that, because people should do whatever

they can. Um, how are you kind of a close out like as this Like doom scrolling is the thing we all talk about, and there's there's plenty image just sitting here in Portland. We just had a mass shooting on a protest this weekend, and so there's a lot of doom scrolling going on in my community. But we're not staring down the barrel of a hundred and ninety thousand soldiers you know, potentially uh, hitting us from the

air and ground simultaneously. How do you How are you like focusing on the stuff that you can do anything about and the stuff that you can productively handle without losing yourself in that obvious amounts of cannabis. That's good. I'm glad you guys have decent pod access. Yeah. I actually don't know what I'll do if, um, if my current supplies got out to be quite honest, um, but I mean it's been definitely a struggle. Um. And the past couple of days, especially my mental health has not

been especially great. Um. But again, I'm one dude. Like, I'm not in very good shape. I have or vision, one of my eyes don't work, I'm diabetic. Like, I'm not gonna go out and grab a rifle and start killing every rooskie I see, you know. Um. But at the same time, I've got a job to do. I as an English language journalist in Ukraine. Um, I have this is your busy season, Yeah, it's my busies. Like one of my jobs is to counter Russian distin information and too like tell people the truth of what is

going on here. Um, And that role will only get more important if the the conflict expands, um from from the scope that it is now. Uh so how am I doing? Well? I'm still alive, um, having off myself and uh I'm still I'm still working. So I think as as good as I can be under the circumstances. Yeah yeah, UM, well I hope your weeds supply stays stable um at the very fucking fingers. Yeah. Um. All right, Well,

thank you so much for coming on the show, Romeo. UM, do you have anything you want to plug kind of as we as we go out here? Um, just if you really want to know about what's going down in Ukraine, I am co host of the podcast called Ukraine Without Hype and find it on any podcast platform. Um. And if you really want to get a look out what's going on in English um with only a tinge of leftist bias, um, then tune in. You can follow us on Twitter Hype Ukrane um and again on any podcast

platform that you use. So it is later awesome, Well check out Romeo there, check out this podcast, and you know, just try to keep your eyes on the situation and don't let yourself be uh overwhelmed by what some random person on Twitter tries to sum it up. As you know, people are more complicated than that. It could happen here coming to you live from my room in Chicago. But but importantly we were coming to your life, and it could happen here Central where the gamers have seized the pod.

It is me, Christopher, it is Garrison. Hello, fellow gamer. Hello, and in the gaming trenches with my razor headset on, looking into my uh the video powered view flinder, and I'm ready to continue on the fight. It's gonna be great. We're talking about talking about gaming, We're talking about the military, we're talking about why the two of them crossing is extremely bad. And uh, with us to talk about this

are two people who are somewhat less clownish than we are. Um. This is Katie and Chris from Gamish for Peace, which is an initiative of Vesterans for Peace. We welcome to the show. Hello, Hey, thank you. I take offensive being called less clownish, and I'm just trying to live up to your standard. I'll have you know. I am very very clownish and clumsy and all of those good things.

And he trusted me with weapons. Oh god, So I guess starting out, I want to talk about I guess very generally the history of counter recruitment, because this is something that's been going on in the U. S. Military for I mean, it really is like from from what I could tell, like about as long as there's been

you know, recruitment for the military. But I was wondering if we could start I don't know, maybe maybe maybe around sort of the Vietnam era when you when there's you know, very very serious and intense sort of left wing kind of recruitment, and then we can go from there. Yeah. Yeah. So coming out of Vietnam, you have Vietnam veterans against the war forming, uh, and there's a massive pushback on uh,

the draft. Uh. The anti war movement is pretty much at its strongest, and Vietnam veterans against the war over

time becomes a veteran for peace. Veterans for Peace has a long legacy of sitting at the front of the anti war movement peace movement, participating in nuclear abolition work, kind of recruitment work, the escalation work out of Save Our v A, helping veterans get assistance with disability benefits, and making sure that the traumas that veterans suffer and the communities of UM impacted by the military suffer are getting treatment for the care UH deported veterans because Vietnam

that's served and then got deported and that continues to this day. UH SO Veterans for Peace at a multi pronged approached, the anti war efforts UH and UH two thousands around UH two thousand seven, Ish Iraq Afghanistan Iraq Veterans against the War later known as Iraq Afghanistan Veterans Against the War comes along, and that's a new generation of veterans carrying along built on the legacy of Veterans

for Peace and being non veterans against the war. UM. You know, there's a long history of Coffee ops g I Resistance, UM Outreach doing work with veterans, trying consciences, objective object or work UM g I resisted work in in there, and there's just a long legacy of just betteran sharing their experiences and coming back and really ah wanting to make sure nobody else goes through that and making sure that they get the help they need and kind of slow that that beat of the war drune

that seems to media seems to always be picking up. And that's where we came in. That's definitely a good way to put it now, especially born out of the pandemic, a lot of the recruiting had to move online. They didn't really have if they wanted to keep recruiting, they had to go online, and that's where a majority of the newest generation is they are watching Twitch. Twitch had a viewership like pretty much competing with Netflix streaming UM as of this summer, and I'm sure that hasn't really

changed much. I'm sure it is just as popular UM and the audience for Twitch skews very young. So that's really what started to worry members of Veterans for Peace, like, Okay, we might need to ramp up truth and recruitment UM initiatives,

which is what Games for Peace came out of. Because the thing is, if you're forming a paras social relationship with these younger kids by streaming and forming those laserships, getting them on discord and talking to them, you're getting a one sided view of what military services about, and you are definitely not getting the uh, imperialist informed viewpoint for sure. UM. So Venemans for Peace kind of came

out of that. That's like very insidious looking, uh, hidden and subtle way of of recruiting using the video games that have already historically been used for recruiting purposes. So it's like a double it's like a double whammy that got on us there for those not inundated in the game or warfare like we are. Um, how let's I think we should briefly describe what twitches because I know a lot of people probably probably isn't actually away of of Twitch. That's the words we are down in these

trenches finding off the cyber net stop. Um. Yeah, So I guess twitches like a live stream platform that is primarily used for live streaming people playing video games, and people kind of help their own like brands and like personalities and like para social relationships with an audience via them playing these games and kind of adding their commentary, you know, variety of games. You know, sometimes it's like mostly chatting with people like inside like a group chat

while playing a game. Um, or you know, it's some of more focused on the game itself. It kind of varies, but yeah, it's a it's a it's it's arguably the biggest live streaming platform. I think it was brought by Amazon a few years ago. Um. And yes, there is a there is a US there's a there's a few US like military channels on there that are actually like

relatively popular. Um. I guess the other thing to kind of get into for some background is, like you mentioned, you already kind of alluded to this, like the history of the U. S Military using video games for propaganda because they've been they've been one of like the earliest funders of games for this reason, I think getting into that history is like interesting, um, and something that some people are definitely aware of, but a lot of times

can get overlooked, despite you know, Call of Duty being one of the biggest video game franchises in the world. Yeah. Absolutely, the military is involvement in video game video can design using as recruitment, using it primary Initially, at first it was thought of as a training tool and they started looking at it for training. Um. If you think back to like early nineties Doom, the original Doom had a

mod released called the Marine Mod. It was a modification designed for the Marine Corps to use to train marines in as early the early nineties when Doom was at its height. And then then that grows from there. You have first to fight, Uh, what is it. UH. Game called First to Fight features Marine Corps marines and dress Blues where you're tactically UH fighting a battle in UM

in which you never want to do. If you know anything about the Marine Corps Blues, you do not want to be doing anything in those that isn't getting drunk exactly. Drunk and dancing and blues all they're good for. UM. Yeah, so you have you have a First to Fight and then it turns into Call of Duty America's Army, which thankfully just got pulled down all its platform from its platform.

That's a huge win. But the Army started design getting into the development of video games for training, UH and then got into it for as recruiting, and America's Army is a perfect highlight of that where they just flat out had recruitment posters and training things UH in there with links to how to get to recruiters or get more information about joining the military joining the army. UM

you have armor to UH. You could you could argue and draw the line from military training simulators to pub G Underground, which is one of the uh most biggest Battle Royale games, which is where you get Fortnite out of so you can draw these lines straight from the military's involvement in designing training and recruitment materials to what

our kids are playing the most these days. And really one of the most kind of sick factors of this is like how much games have been designed and pushed towards basically training people for um like uh, I guess we're trying to think of the term, but like combat at a distance in terms of like ding like drone combat. There's just like they started just use the Xbox controllers

for some like drone missions. Like like it's like there are specifically looking at the pipeline of specifically young males who get into this type of gaming and trying everything they can to push them into a career where they just kill people in overseas countries using the same technology, using you know, using video game controllers, using like you know, operating systems very similar to what we're being used in video games. And I mean, like in video games are

a very effective propaganda tool. If you're thinking, like, okay, I mean I just enjoy playing more games. It's not like, what's what's the big deal? Like sure, like I also

enjoy playing war games. Sometimes they can be a fun um you know, I like this like tactics based games, but these have been shown to be very effective at recruitment, to the point that video game footage and video games were like one of isis favorite recruitment and propaganda tactics as well, like this is it's a it's a thing, like it's not it's not just like oh, it's fine, Like no, these these things are actually kind of a

profit of Yeah. Um, they are very effective in that manner as a recruitential and there is a real synergy between gaming developers and the d o D because of how effective uh, you know that recruiting can be, or the recruiting tool can be. Um, similar to movies. Uh, you know, the military entertainment complexes is a term thrown around a lot for good reason. You know, you have there is a black box of politics. Whenever you're watching a movie that picks uh yeah, some sort of power

structure against whatever the villain is doing. There's there, there's always something there, and video games are not too different from that. You just have a little bit more say and where the story goes, but maybe not even it depends on the development. But um, there's article in in the Atlantic that was it was actually like about a book, um from beincause Dexter Thomas Warplay, and it's all about

video gaming and the relationship with the military. And they said the Pentagon avoids pitiful, expensive efforts to create their own training simulators, and developers get fat government checks so they can help fund these new games, new virtual reality things under the guys of it being a useful training tool for training in like virtual virtual reality environments, which it scares me already. Um. And then game developers are like, great, I can get a government grant, so even if this flops,

we still got the money out of it. That's not an uncommon phenomena. Yeah, I mean in terms of like filmmaking, Yeah, like there's been there's rules for like Pentagon contracts with film studios to be like, if you want to use you know, U. S. Military equipment or personality, to follow these specific rules to portray the military in this light, um, which often do get followed just because people want to

use the cool equipment and stuff. You know. I'm still agree that my that my beloved Transformers got cuted by the U. S. Military and all of their films as a result of films are pretty pretty bad. Um. Yeah, I'll have you know. They are film art. No, I'm sorry, I can't even keep your straight. I hope as a as someone with many many star scream action figures, I I dream of one day of having good Transformers movies.

I mean, you got the classic, the you know, the eighties classic, Um, You've got You've got the Touch, um and the bubblebe film is okay, but it's even still that one got cooked. That one got cooked by the military pretty pretty severely. Yes, it's it's funny that you mentioned isis using video gaming. Uh, there's just a recent report came out. It's linked to the u N. I believe it's linked to the u N. Council on Counter

Terrorism or Office counter Terrorism. Uh, talking about violent extremism and gaming, the link between video games and violent extremism. And what's really interesting is it's not so much at the video games themselves are the issue. It's the gaming

adjacent space. It's it's the para social relationship development, it's the meme, and it's the what what we've what we've known in in the gaming world for a while as associated with like the behaviors and culture around gamer Gate and things things like that where we see this uh, this toxic culture that um is easy to cultivate inside these spaces and and be co opted for more to

various things. UM. And that doesn't that's that doesn't mean that the military isn't banking or utilizing those same principles to to get its recruiting messages across. The military is another violent extreme position, right. You're whether it's you're the violent arm of capitalism and the state or or violent like domestic terrorists or something like that, you're still um opting into or your position is still getting mobilized towards

potentially doing violence. And these gaming adjacent spaces are make it really easy for recruiters of all sorts to be in there and push people to more of that side of things. Yeah. One of the things I remember when I was like a teenager on Twitch was like, so I watched just like a lot of harsh Stone streams, right, and this is like these were, you know, like completely

mainline hard stone streams. And there was there was this artist who everyone called Kebab the German and uh, yeah, so it turns out that Kebab the German was a miss.

It was like a shortening like abbreviation of his actual name, which was removed Kebab, And this guy's stuff was just being played on like every major like like Twitch, like all the major harshonal streaments who just playing groove Kebab songs and it was like and this this was just like what like this is just what Twitch was in like fourteen fifteen, and yeah, like there there's so much like the the the extent to which just this sort of like i mean just overtly fascist like milieu would

just seep into just like you know, here was a bunch of people playing a card game and like it wasn't and it wasn't even like like I mean some of these which were like really reactionally like I've seen I've seen streamers who like will like watch videos of like cops doing right like raids on people's houses on stream, like you know, like you have those people who are like really florright, but some of these people were just like I don't know, they're just a lot of them

are just regular people, like the regular people themselves extremists yeah yeah, yeah, just value Yeah. Well even then like some of them just like I think with like like with with with with like with the Germans like they just didn't know, like they just they just like didn't know what was going on, and so they were just you know, spreading all of this stuff and it was

like it was horrifying. Yeah. Absolutely, And actually I'm glad you mentioned that because about a year ago, the Army Sports Channel got in trouble because one of the streamers didn't catch on to to there were two user names that were explicitly white supremacist. One of them was um six million was not enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah, real, real gross.

And I guess like just the whole idea of multitasking between playing a game, trying to interact with chat, and trying to make sure you're you're on screen and all of those things. They didn't realize it, or they willfully didn't realize it. I don't know which one, and I'm not going to make a judgment either way, but they did. They had to shut down that stream, and I don't think they streamed for a couple of weeks after that.

They had to like reassess some some things because they're like, hey, actively, you know, white supremacists people are on your stream, you should probably you should probably do something about that. And I feel like if you're the U. S Military streaming on Twitch, that someone's job should just be to prevent

that from happening. Like yeah, but the resources. Yeah, but like they kind of have this problem though, because Twitch has a there's a there's a huge just like like core, like a large enough base of Twitch users are just like fascist or like hard right wingers that do things like like there have been a persistent problem on Twitch

for for years now of like these hate raids. It's like people doing mass raids on like anyone who's white and anyone who's like not just white dude, and just like hate rating their channels and like spamming the chat

with like slurs and stuff like that. And you know when when that's you know, and that that's too large, Like yeah, like those those are the people, like you know that that's a large enough part of Twitch that like even even even if you're like taking the most charitable thing, which that the US, like the Army is not overtly recruiting white supremacists, which like okay, but like even even if you give them the benefit of the doubt, right, like that that's a large enough part of just what

Twitch is. They haven't a center in front of blind eye and and radicalization, specifically right wing and white nationalist radicalization in the military is well studied and well established as an existing phenomena. I knew someone personally who uh got caught trying to smuggle weapons for a new or Nazi group. And that's all I'll say on that. Boy. Yeah, yeah, no, it is a thing, and it hits really close. It is definitely a phenomena to have was in the military.

And um, these paramilitary Nazi groups actively recruit from people coming out in the military because they have the trainings that they want. And I mean, I trying to figure out a way to tie this back to recruiting online. But it's like, with all of this in mind, it is very insidious that the target is explicitly young kids. And I'm not saying that just to be like, oh, you know, because we've got a lot of We've gotten pushed back with saying, well, the military doesn't recruit kids.

They you can only sign up in their seventeen about that as a kid, that all that is a kid. Second of all, it's like the thing is it's it's it's just like grooming children. That's that's what it is. It is. It's the same process of grooming. That's that's what's going on. One of one of my best friends growing up, like because it was my best friend for like a decade, Like I met him in first grade.

He was my friend for the entirety of school and then he got like because his parents sent him away to like, uh one of one of those like uh like summer like like military school camp, and he was just never the same afterwards, and he's like a fascist now, and yeah, that sucks. Yeah, that does suck. That there's not a better word for that. That that sucks because yeah, they can't sign up until they're seventeen, but that's not

the point. Isn't convince seventeen year olds. The point the points to ingrain this idea in them when they're like sucking twelve years old on the internet. And that is just what grooming is, right, starting it when you're when they're young, so when they're old enough, they will be

able to sign up for the thing. Like that's that's what the process is, and that's what like, you know, military propaganda reqruipment has been doing for a long time, but the specifically the way it's being done on the internet around gaming is extrasidious. It was literally it is explicitly said by one of UM A recruiting officer, Dr. E. Case Wardinsky, and I apologize if I'm pronouncing that wrong.

But then he literally said, we have to confront this question of will you wait until they're seventeen or will we start talking to them at age twelve thirteen, fourteen fifteen when a form the set of things they were thinking about doing with their life. Because we're literally saying we want to groom children. It's like, yeah, so I think now would be the time to kind of get

into the countering side of things. It's like, yes, this is a this is a big problem, as we've laid out the past twenty minutes of what can we do about it? Yeah, so what can we do about it? There's um a good deal that we can do about it? Right, um we we Veterans for Peace, the Truth and Recruitment UH working Group came up with an idea for the Gamage for Peace initiative concerned veterans and gamers and UH

and allies. Because Veterans for Peace isn't just comprised of veterans themselves, it's also allies and accomplices UM came together and started forming the an online community of our own UM where we have kind of adopted some four channels. Have changed this concept of four channels to change. One do education, talking about UH, sharing our experiences as veterans,

talking about and unpacking recruitment tactics and techniques. UH. Start talking being extremely vocal and raise awareness around the recruitment techniques that we've we've already been talking about, right. Uh. Second, we're doing some mentorship and leadership stuff. Starting to develop programs in local communities that offer alternatives to the economic draft. Right, like just throwing it back to where we started talking

about coming out of Vietnam. It has already said that sergeant hard Times is the best recruiter and it posts posts the drafts we went when we went to an all volunteer force. You have to have a reason to join, and there's a thing called the economic draft, and it's the impoverished conditions that many kids and people face that

forced them to go into the military. Right. You don't have healthcare coming out of high school, you're in an abusive home, you're not talking to a guidance counselor no college is coming to You don't know how to pay for college, You don't know where what you're going to do because you're eight in and on your own. And that's what we keep telling kids. So you have the economic draft, which encourage gives an opportunity for recruiters to go, hey,

this this program will solve everything. And what what people don't realize is what's being asked is are you willing to kill for a camaro? Are you willing to kill just to have a roof of your head? Are you willing to kill for medicare? Right? So we're starting to focus on developing mentorship and leadership programs UM include helping kids and young adults get into college or find mutual aid programs and within their communities start doing stuff locally

because this is the problem is pervasive. Right. Not everybody needs to escape abuse of home and it is fine staying in their community, but doesn't know how to survive within the community because they don't have the resources there. And we also look at the what's going on in the world today and and recognize that things must be done at a local level. UM and you can be part of leading that change. Right. Ingesting some of our

world concerns. We ourselves do direct actions. We go to gaming conventions, speak out, try to actually do counter recruitment right where the recruiters are. We just it's really pervasive. If you, if you if you go to any kind of con or any kind of can, any kind of like game fest or whatever, um, you know, comic cons, there will always be multiple military recruitment boots there, like like Navy, Marines, Army National Guard, like all of them. That they will all all be there. And it's not

not my favorite thing to see. No, no, it's frustrating. Yeah, board games aren't even safe, right. The Army Esports team has a forty K team, So if you play Warhammer forty K, they have nationally or internationally ranked forty K team playing in the major circuits. You know, it's most

insulting about that, sorry, Chris, most insulting about that. And I know this because one of the streams that we do, I host it is called ad Slam because we started out as like roasting military recruitment ads, but it kind of morphed into just like general veteran and military depictions and media and to them was on the or at least referenced the Army e Sports Warhamerpoty K Team. And you know how people will like take their figurines really seriously,

they paint them. They look really cool. The Army like spray painted them gold and it's called the Day. And I'm like, really, you have all of these resources, you are using the recruiting budget which is ridiculous and astronomical, and you spray painted them gold. Are you kidding me? Come on? And it's just an insulting that it was

so low effort, but they still get the praise. Um. A lot of people report like having positive viewpoints of the military after interacting with members of you know, the Eastward Team or the Booth or whatever. So I'm I'm genuinely annoyed that it's also low effort on that matter

and they're still getting a positive response. Bothers me, that's a perfect highlight because being there on like the hate using military terms nowadays, but being their boots on ground, you know, uh at it at these conventions, uh doing providing truth and recruitment right, talking about alternative Uh really just being there in front of recruiters and and talking to the people that they're targeting and family members, letting them know like, hey, we as veterans, right, don't let

this be what shapes your child's future or your future. Right, there's other opportunities for you. Um and and you know, whether that's if you're into gaming, start designing games, right, Like, there's there's so many opportunities within the gaming community that doesn't want to put you into the military pipeline also, right,

So it's not the game's fault. It's not like it's it's that the state's using right now, right, um and then we're trying to form some our owny sports teams also, right, so we can compete directly against them, kick their as in some of the tournaments that they host. Um. You know, my my dream is to see some gamers for Peace jerseys getting awarded like some trophy next to the Army sports team and just dunking on them so across all the if we lose, if we're up there, we still

get to dunk on them. See, we had so much more fun. We don't have to go clean up barracks room after this. Like the ultimate goal being us being able to provide tangible alternatives. So a kid coming out of high school thinking like, well, I either go into a lot of debt to go to college or I join the military. If we can get um not a hold of them, that seems predatory, but if we can talk to them, or our organization can provide that alternative and say, oh, well, you don't really have to do that.

We have a scholarship program that we can offer you, or we can provide a lite, at the very least education about what they're really getting into so they can make a better informed decision. Because the main problem that I have with the way that recruiting works is that you are not getting a view of what life would actually be like. You are not getting a view of

what you're fighting for. The There's a whole lot of like these vague concepts that they tell you that you're fighting for and then you're supposed to feel great about doing but none of those are real in practice, liberty or protecting the homeland, none of that is what you're doing. You're helping Northrop Grumman create a profit. Right Like, there's uh and so at least, at the very least someone who thinks that they have no other options, and in this country that might not be too far off right.

We don't have a universal health care system. That was part of the reason why I joined the Marine Corps that I knew I would get healthcare and I knew I would get money to go to college and not be in this loan debt that I was in. So I'm definitely not alone in that. And UM, if maybe we can even just provide a more holistic view of what decision that you're making, that would be considered a

win to us. So that was my soapbox. One of the important things is trying to push back on the motion offarious things that we're seeing right, whether that's games that are becoming way to train, some training simulator. Uh. There's another campaign that Gamage for Peace work on, and Veterans for Peace worked on the platform six Days with Care.

The Council on American and Islamic Relations U pushing back on again called Six States in Flucia, which was delayed to quarter four two of this year, So we got it was pushed by a year, whether through our efforts or for whatever reason, but it was pushed by a year. Um. And this game is dubbed a murder simulator, uh, because it is. We look at other games like Escape from tarkov as as teaching fundamental skills through tried and true

teaching methodologies for military skills. Um. You know, we were talking about counter recruitment and truth and recruitment to give people an opportunity to make informed, have an informed decision about their participation in the war machine. But also we're trying to push back directly on the war machine and and say hey, there's better uses of our money for for as as a government to take care of our people. There's a lot of fundamental things. There's the contributions to

the climate crisis. Is the military's number one, uh impact or of the on the climate war is never green You can't green watch the military. Um, the you know, we have just so much going on around all the

ways that people don't realize that militaries involved. We have the future of German warfare, kill, cloud technology, gaming technology, and the military and militarism is so tightly wound right now that just pushing back and trying to parse those two things apart is one of the things that is most effective for counter recruitment and also for mobilizing people to be like, hey, we actually deserve better, Like get

out of my gaming space. And like, get me some food, sovereignty, get me, get me like, let's let me be part of my community. Get out of the gaming space and stop using what is fun and has actual educational value, mental health benefits, physical health benefits, commune to impact social impact like this, this gaming tool, this gaming technology we have can be used for so much good. Uh, but we need to disentangle the military's usage from it and and stop framing our our time, our time enjoy that

we enjoy with our friends and family. Uh through this lens at the military forces to view with her. Because there are so many great games out there, like like we are in one of like right now we have the most amount of games ever released, most amount of good games like always being announced and released all the time.

There's so many great stuff to play, and yeah, there's anything that can be done to push people away from stuff that kind of promotes this you know, colonial imperial it's kind of mindset um is great, right, Like That's why I kind of appreciate the cartoony aspects of Fortnite. Even though I hate playing Fortnite and we'll never really do, so, I still appreciate it as opposed to like the heavily militaristic kind of aesthetics that other you know, similar Battle

Royals show, um. Because I mean because with with with as many games out there as there is, Yeah, I think any kind of attempts to push people away from the more problematic aspects of you know, specifically shooting games, UH is great. Yeah, And just noting that when you're playing these games, especially if they are relatively close to reality, UM, understand the impact that you can have by pointing out simply that your friend doesn't respawn in real life. Right.

And also keep in mind if you are playing a game that that is close to a recent reality, that you could be playing through someone's actual trauma. So I'm not telling you not to play the games if they are. We've gone over a couple of like Squad uh and and others that are like very very realistic um in

their application. Just keep in mind when you're playing it that maybe look at it through that lens, like would how would you feel if you were playing through a game but it was the exact moment of your trauma. And I'm not even saying from the military side, I mean from from the people who were being bombed side, you know, so just just want to have more people

be more mindful with what they consume and how. And again I'm not telling you not to consume it, just telling you to to think a little bit about it and what that type of media can do while having that baggage onto it. And there is a place for

that's in the military experience in gaming. Right Like when I was in when I was deployed to Iraq, I took an Xbox Stege six year over there with me in the bottom my sea bag and we had on camp filution, we had a local area network of Xboxes in all the cants when we sat there and played Halo and and Gears of War and when that dropped walls there, right, Like, that's how we stay in touch with each other. It's how we process like auditory things

and and and our combat experiences. Right, That's that's valid sublimation and processing of our traumatic experience as a thing. And games have that And that's not a military exclusive thing or veteran exclusive thing. That's for all communities. Um. But what we have to do is add context and nuanced when we're playing these games and go oh, um, there's another side to this story. That's the local civilian

that just had a bomb cave in the ceiling. Right. Uh, there's there's these these instances where we've removed that because we're so focused on the competitive nature instead of the storytelling in the full scope of what that game is allowing us to process. Um. And that's why I don't like, I'm not blaming recruiters or blaming like coming up to people in the military and going, you know, you're horrible.

It's not the right thing. Hey, I was there, right, I did the six years in the Marine Corps, and and um, you know, instead of going, hey, you're a horrible person or things like that, like we're trying to offer them them the recruiters and other military members of the community that go, hey, you're allowed to speak out against the things that you know were bullsh it while

you're in there. Because if I knew it was a bullshit while I was in there, and I couldn't speak out, I didn't know I had a community to speak out to or with. And we're trying to offer community to them. Um. And that's beyond beyond just video games, but that's drone operators and infantry eyes and and people that are just fed up with what they see in a system that

is supporting a crumbling infrastructure. Right, Like, Um, you can only deploy so many times without developing either becoming completely dead on the inside or having developing some semblance of empathy that goes, Hey, deep down, I know something's wrong here, and I just don't know how to uh Like, I don't know what that feeling is. Well, that feeling is is just empathy for the human condition and not wanting

to see people traumatized through war. Right, Um, that that idea of us going into like even post nine eleven, like immediate post nine eleven events early on they had they went there with the right, right idea, I want to defend my community. I want to be do do service, right like I don't have another option. Yeah, I'm an economic drafty, but all in all here to help people. Yeah,

it was, it was. It was a genuine thought, Like, it was a genuine idea, right people, you can very much disagree with like the intentionality the propaganda that like governments were doing to promote the war and the unjust reasons for that, but for the but for the regular people, right, Yeah, it was, it was, it was genuine feelings that caused that to happen, and overlooking that, I think MSS what

makes the recruitment to work. You know, if if if you just look at all the people who join the military as being like, oh, they're just like bad people who want to kill you know, brown people. You're like, but that's you can think that, but that doesn't actually do anything to understand how recruitment actually works. And then if you can't do that, then you don't know how

to actually counter it. Right exactly, if you are a veteran and you feel like we do this whole thing was bullshit you and that can be uh an incredibly alienating experience. I've been there, because it feels like with the amount of veterans we saw the January six events, um, all the veterans that you see that get through to the right wing side of the culture of war, I just want to say that we see you. You're not alone,

you are you are not crazy. I promise you. We we are trying to build a community of people like that who understand it and promote healing through that community, political education through that so that you can create resiliency within your community and as well as at least put a little bit of pressure on the military entertainment complex and the military recruiting apparatus. Yeah, fuck the military, Fuck war war, It's truth, all right, Tea two. If anything

specific that you want to plug, yes, join our discord. UH. You can find if you search the discord, you can look up Gamers for Peace and you will see us on Twitch. We are Veterans for Peace all one word, and we stream several times the week gaming content content of out um different alternatives to military service content, breaking down propaganda and recruiting efforts, as well as other political education things. Sometimes it's just a random community game night

as well. Um, actually, no, that's not random. Those are on Thursdays, so there. Um, Chris, should I should we add anything? I got something? Um? Uh? The if if one of the first things you can do besides going to discord and checking us out on Twitch. UH. We actually have an online digital direct action campaign going on UH that we're pushing to allow content creators on Twitch as a platform to be able to opt out of military ads UH on their channels. So that is our

campaign that we currently have ongoing. There's a petition it is uh bit dot Lee Slash, Twitch Military ad Opt out is the u r L. They'll take you right to the Twitch petition that feedback your Twitch. We're looking to hit a thousand at least a SAP on that petition, UH to get some get a response from Twitch, and then go from there, allowing content creators to take ownership of their of the the ads and stuff that are on their channels, at least when it comes to military

recruitment UH, and then going from there. UH. We also UH are doing actions and planning things constantly. So beyond lookout, joined the discord all that good stuff. Oh, if you need help navigating that, I'm a mod in the discord at plantipa she slash today and you'll find me. We'll try to put that link for the petition in the show notes so people can find out with a with a with with an easy click. Awesome. Perfect, All right, Well,

thank you too for joining us. We are it could happen here at happened here pod in the places, in the places, the places you know, all the places, they're all there. H Well, thank you everyone for listening, and yeah, go play. I don't know Mario Kart eight or something, you know, something something fun. I don't know. I enjoyed. I enjoyed the Mario Kart games as a as as someone of my age, very very very integral to my driving education. So yeah, go play Mario Kart eight buck

war War not another generation. Oh boy, it could happen here is the podcast that you're listening to. All right, St Andrew, that that's my job done today? Why why don't you take over? Good job. I'm proud of you, Thank you. Welcome everybody. Another wonderful episode of it could happen here today. Open to take a look at another book, well, two books, this time, this time works of fiction, and

this time by an English, unfortunately writer named Alice Huxley. Right, we'll be looking at Ireland and Free of New World, the sort of twins of speculative science fiction. I would say. Aldice Huxley was, like I said, an English writer and philosopher, and he actually wrote a lot of books, um fifty in his lifetime. To be precise. He was also a French teacher who interestingly enough, taught George Owell. But I did not know from yeah, but from what what his

past students have said. He wasn't a particularly good teacher, Okay, but he was a good speaker. Um. He was also a very very big fan of psychedelics and mysticism and philosophy, and particularly like advit I don't know if I'm pronounced that correctly, but advate vendata, which is like a Hindu spiritual practice. Yeah, I know. He's He's even referenced a lot and like occultist and chaos magic books written like post the sixties. He's yeah, yeah, yeah, he's He's like, um,

that guy, it's his name again, Alan Watts. Yeah guy, yeah. Also very interestingly, Um, Huxley actually had LSD injected into his veins. It's a basic Yeah. He was like he was dying, as you know one does on their deathbed, and that is the traditional thing to do traditionally. Yes, while in the process of dying, because he had like advanced learning your cancer, he had to write to his wife Laura. He was just like LSD intermuscular. He's like, okay,

Jackson him fucking muscle. And she doesn't inject him with one do she injects him with two doses and then he dies like several hours later. Incredibly based what away to go? Staggeringly based and honestly, if if he was like speaking on the deathbed. I would really love to know, like what that experience was like, like, are you just like dancing through hell? Like what's going on? I mean it could it could think I can see of being

the most amazing thing and also extreme plainly terrified. Right as a general rule, when like Pete, they've done studies on like giving different kinds of psychedelics, usually silocybin mushrooms to um people who are in hospice and it it generally reduces their fear of death. Yeah, they they go in peace. Yeah, yeah, it just makes them like, ah, you know what, everything is the same as everything else, and we're the imagination of the universe. I'm going to

go back into space, which is fine. Good for them, Yeah, yeah, good for them, good for them. If I want my death bed, I a pread wouldn't want to be thinking about death either. Yeah. I mean that assumes that, you know, we get a deathbed, you know, and that's the kind of wild thing about death. You don't know when it's going to happen. But so it too into the topic

of discussion. Brief New Wild and Ireland right to summarize the plots of booth, I guess I'll start with Brief New will it is the more famous of the two. I don't think a lot of people have hood of Island compared to Brief New World because briefe like New World and high School. But I have not read Island exactly, and it's like it's released as a lot of out society that that that we read about the Dystupias, but

not the Utupias. But anyway, Brief New World, you know, it's really up there with like in terms of um, you know, it's it's notoriety. Um. It is like one of the quintessential dystopias. It's set like several hundred years into the future, like four which you know, to place, which is several decades ago. Brief New World was set in two thousand and fifty four, two thousand five hty ce, so several Star Direct times. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But however,

in the book, it isn't called two thousand five. It's called six three to a F a F standing for after Ford. Because in this world, and I'm sure we'll get into this a bit, Henry Ford, the Assembly, lying guy, the monet guy, he is basically god. He is the god of their world, you know. So yeah, that wouldn't be ideal. They say things like by Ford's name and that kind of thing, you know, and his school sort of simply line structure. Um. It's basically it's chopolated to

society as a whole. Right, there's this world state where emotions and individuality a condition out of children, and everyone belongs to everyone else, and you know there's children are created in like factories and generated to be part of specific classes, whether it be alpha, beta, gamma, telta, or epsilon. So it's like it's kind of like, what's what, what's

what's happening today? You know, in terms of the Greek alphabet um, we are the alphas who are bred to be like the leaders and stuff, and you're the absilons who are bred to be like the menial libras, and you have the folks in between, and like they're literally conditioned, you know, so like in the factory, in the baby making factory, which is in this case literal and not

a euphemism for the womb um. You know, they like poled back on oxygen or they apply sitting chemicals or sitting hormones in order to like condition people, so they don't do like genetic um like coding or whatever. They just they do a chemical concoctions in those sort of test tubes. And yeah, I mean the story of the world is really how it's affecting, like that's on the top level of people within it and sort of contrasted with sort of reservations that exist in their world where

people are a bit less restricted. Um. And it ends pretty tragically, but the next book also ends it tragically. The extra for being Island, which is like the utopian twin for a Brief New World in a lot of ways in terms of memory, mirroring a lot of the same themes that Brief New World explores. Right, So in Ireland there's this specific island called Parlor, which is um fictional.

I mean, there was an area in India called Parlor, but the island of Parlor in this world is like it doesn't exist, right, And it's basically seen as this oasis of happiness and freedom and where it's inhabitants of resisted capitalism and consumers um and technology. Right then this journalist, another British guy named Will farnaby Um pulls up on their island and he's basically trying to scoop out the island for exploitation because he's friends with this industrialist who's

trying to like extract oil from the region. And while he's going through the Ireland and really going through the society going through the book, there are a lot of monologues and stuff. I mean, this book is kind of heavy on the monologues and the discussions. It's kind of like Alice Sucksley's soup box for all his ideas, just laying them all out there. Right. So Will enters Palace a cynic, but by time he comes out, he's like

he's had like layers on layers of epiphanies. And I don't know for those who have been reading to one of everything recently. Um in chapter two there the authors David When Grown, David Group. But this sort of outline some of the discussions that were happening that were happening between Europeans and Indigenous Americans at the time of arrival, and how those discussions were shaping both um apparentily the

Europeans view of society. Interestingly, it's kind of like reflected here because you know, I have this white man who pulls up with all his English ideas and it's basically these indigenous inhabitants and parlor basically deconstructing his ideas through dialogue, UM, and through debate and discussion, and unfortunately it doesn't end

very well. Despite you know, being convinced of the purity and brilliance of the polonies we have lived in, Um, he already made the deal with the industrialist and pola um Is has basically been sold by an by neighboring country and so it's downfall is now inevitable and that's how it ends. Oh and also UM will want to be kind of as like an LSD. Well'sund really LSD. But it's like a psychedelic trip. Yeah, it's like a combination like pilocybin almost yeah, yeah, and true how that

Sucksley fashion? Yeah Yeah, there's like a lot of the tropes and like themes that were president Brave New World exists in island, but as like their inversion so like in terms of like it showed like the like Brave New World that's written before Huxley had psychedelics. It was like his his version of drug use is so different in that book. It's more like a pacifying drug Um, whereas the drug use in Island. It's more like an

like an enlightening drug. So, but there's a whole bunch of themes that like parallel but are also inverted on each other. Yeah, exactly exactly, And we're gonna get into those themes just now. But to summarize, Brave New World is basically humans becoming less than human because of all these technological and sociological um efforts, where as Ireland is

like the opposite we had. You know, humans are able to come into the fullness of the humanness um while still using science, except in a way to enhance their

quality of life. I don't know if I missed any aspect of either plots that and if you want to like touch on a real quick no, no, no reallyy okay, yeah, I mean I will say the one thing is it just because Brave New World also has this sort of like weird like going to a reservation plot that's like, yeah, kind of a b plot, but you see, sort of it's another one of those things instead of like I don't know if inverteds the right word, but the sort of context of it is very very different in Island

than it isn't Brave New World. Yeah, yeah, because I mean, in a sense you have this outside protagonist who is introduced to this alternate way of living UM and is transformed by it, you know, except in Brief New World, you know, he ends up killing himself and in Ireland, well he already sold out the island. You know. I will say, UM, one criticism that I want to get out of the way before we get into like the concepts and you know how they might apply to politics

as a whole. Really is Huxley, like a lot of authors and thinkers and ideologus of his time, has this

very unsettling a fixation on overpopulation. It's kind of like what we were talking about UM with the last book we discussed here UM, this sort of weird fixation and over population and you know, people dying out and that kind of thing UM in in parliam in Ireland there's a sort of acceptance of UM of population as something that needs to be you know, avoided until I guess it brings us to the first theme, which is the use of contraception in both books, right, Like, on one hand,

you have in Brave New World where there's like mandatory contraception and people are literally not allowed to like naturally give both. You know, they have to have babies through test you, whereas in parlor, you know, there's reproductive education and reproductive choice and expressive sex. And it's really like a complete contrast. So I guess I want to do something like I like speculating and thinking about how anarchy

would operate. UM. I think there needs to be a lot more of that in terms of UM creative works and discussions. I mean, like there was at the Cafe by mal Tester, and there are some like utopian fictions out there, but I like less than utopian, but still interesting explorations of anarchist society. It's like there's Lucky the Quins that is possessed. It is interesting to me that even in mainstream sort of imagining, whenever there's an attempt to envision a utopia, there's nearly always a lot of

anarchist principles involved in that. It's basically impossible to imagine a utopia without aspects of anarchist theory making it into it exactly. And it tends to be like some elements of anti work in there, and like you know, like to post work, post hierarchy, freedom of association. Yeah, yeah, yeah, as I kind of want to look at that, look at these works through that lens as well. Here mostly Island, considering Island is a clue so actually than free New

World is Yeah, i'd say so just a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, Like when you look at how sexual liberation is treated in Ireland, it is pretty much an echo of what anarchists was seeing about free love in like nearly twenty like late nineties Sentry. You know, because I feel like I'm a good one, like free choice and contraceptive access

and that sort of thing, reproductive choice, free love. It's really in Paula, I would see, Um they have this sort of elements as well of like communal child rearing, I mean in Um, which is another thing I spoke about that and like my video in December on the family, like the fact that humans basically evolved in an alloparental arrangement, in a corporative reading arrangement. Yeah, there's because of capitalism

moved away from that. Yeah, there's a lot of if you if you study how kind of different societies that were not capitalists handled child rearing, there's a lot of like very interesting. I think my favorite is it was some indigenous group in Um South America, whose like cultural belief was that you didn't you didn't have like one man have sex with a woman, and that like leads

conceiving a child. It starts the process. And so once you've started the process of making a child, the woman then is going to pick out all of the guys that she thinks have traits that she wants to be like part of the child she's making and has sex with them, because you're like gradually building the child by having like adding additional sperm to it, which means that when they have the kid, all of those guys that she had sex pregnant have a responsibility to rear the

child and teach it things, which I think is objectively

the best way to treat kids. I mean, even like it's that's such an interesting metaphysical concept in terms of like what constitutes like even like the the idea of genetic makeup, because even though it's not like literally true, it's still like if you can convince yourself of that in your head, then it kind of is physically true, and it will it will be true enough for the kid because like really because most of the father those treats are gonna like manifest in the child anyway because

they were raised by them. Therefore, I think we should

all agree to just act like it works that way. Yeah, but I mean like and also like in terms of like the group living in Island versus like Brave New World everywhere else, it's always like you don't you have group living because you've lost like the idea of individuality, right versus groups living in Island is more like you know how like anarchists have like group homes and that's it's it's very similar to group living allows you to be the best version of yourself because the best version

of yourself exists in the community. Yeah, exactly. There's like there's like a barista or whatever. There's a kind of like like a jokey fruition fist. I think about a lot where it's like if you see a block and like you're looking at it like a black block, right, It's like the way you can tell that there are mooise involved is if you see a bunch of people

actually like legitimately wearing all the same thing. It's like like it's it's it's like it's it's really like it's it's it's extremely rare that like even even when you're doing this for security reasons that you can get a bunch of anarchists who actually literally all wear exactly the same thing, because it's like it's like, yeah, you have this sort of like I mean, okay, this is this is not like always true, but like it's it's I don't know, you you you have this thing where even

when you're like even when anarchists are like trying to sort of like fade into a single mass, it's like be like like they literally can't do it because everyone has this sort of like this individual definitely seeing people be bad at block more often than I've seen them be good at it, Yeah, it's like whi I mean

like the actual hiding part of it. Yeah yeah, but I don't know, like it's it's it's it's there's there's there there there there's a way of sort of egalitarianism in sociality where like you treat everyone as if they were exactly the same and like and you know, and there there's models of this word. It's like yeah, it's like okay, you actually try to like force everyone to be exactly the same, where like everyone to be exactly same in the class and like that sucks. And you

shouldn't do it. And the alternative to that is everyone is just sort of like in a group, but they're all like I don't I'm not entirely sure if this don't make any sense, but it's I don't know, there are a group thing. Yeah. Yeah, it's like the purpose of the group is to like maintain like you know, maybe like maintain the differentiation of the individual. Yeah, to foster what makes the dividence is really good at being like their own person and give them the tools that

can you can set that up. Yeah, I think exactly. Like culturally, we have like problems thinking about that because like the sort of American version of individuality has to do with like no, no, no, you're you're an individual because you have no connections to anyone else. And it's like, well this sucks and it is bad because and that kind of goes back to the whole spoon building a

baby concept. I didn't think I would ever use that freeze individuals only individuals because their combination of influences are unique to them. Yeah, well not just that. I mean obviously it's a gene's a component, and I'll know a lot, but I think key aspect of it is that you know, because we are reason these different environments surrounded by different people,

we have different experiences. That's what builds us up. You know, Like I can I can already name off the top of my head, like a bunch of like defining movements from my childhood. You know that basically changed my course, you know, like the one time I got cyber bullied, not basically like shifted my perspective and my approach the internet to that kind of thing. You know, it's like it really, I really can't imagine how someone could come away with the idea that an individual is just an

individual on their own. Yeah, they just they just pop out and are that thing. Yeah, I mean yeah, because like a large portion of you was built up of previous you, and previously like exists, like your previous existences makes a large portion of yourself. And like sure you can say you have a little bit of like ego from the start, like your actual self self that that you know, contributed to the way you interpret events, which then will in turn build your personality. But I think

these things are not opposing. These things work in tandem. But yeah, yes, it is the whole group living components and also in that group living components. You notice and at one point in the book, Um, one of the children like basically in passing mentions that you know, they don't want to go by a certain person because they are mad at them or whatever. And so they basically have that freedom to remove themselves from that situation and go on, um, sleep at another house or another space

until that sort of situation is resolved. And I think that also would really be a crucial element of society, particularly for children, having that freedom of associate and freedom of movement, because imagine how many abusive situations could be avoided over him. Indeed, if children had the ability to come out of it. You know, we strict children of choice and allows these sorts of dynamics to persist. Yeahstand these dynamics that persist in the next generation and so

on and so on. It's this thing that's having a resurgence in the United States right now and is like at the core of all of the book banning in the anti trans legislation, which is this idea that like kids shouldn't have a choice because that would interfere with parents having absolute control over the life of their child. And then includes the control to like, if a child says I'm this or I'm that, the parent can say

absolutely not. Yeah, exactly if you had like this, if you sort of like too with like someone from from the past or someone who lives in like a cooperative reading arrangement, that the pear and the child is the pearance property entirely, it would look at you like real funny because the child is part of the community, doesn't belong to anyone, you know, if it belongs to anything. It just belongs to the community as a whole, as

as we all do. Yeah. But yeah, another element I think I find, um, I find really interesting and the way that probably society operates is that and I guess in comparison to brieve New World, unlike in brief New World, where drugs are used like UM likes, and like all drugs are used for a pacification and control and self medication and that kind of thing to sort of like chill you out and prevent you from basically going mad

in a mad society. Um in Pala, you know, Chunky's is used for bonding and for enlightenment and for social connection and social cohesion. It is really really using that that he changes what drugs do in his books, like after he starts doing them. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, Now,

I actually don't know. You know, I used to have because I I had the opposite arc with with drugs, where I started doing them when I was very young and had the belief that like they were kind of inherently this mind opening tool that could be used to expand the borders of reality within human beings, and as an adultum in part through some of the research I've done on the far right, come to understand, like, no, you can also use them to reinforce the very limited,

terrible things you already believe, And there are folks who do that quite effectively of appeal you esotericism kind of. Yeah, I don't know if I just made up that too. I like, I like that term. It's thinking of it's an accurate it's an accurate term to describe the thing we're talking about. I'm taking it, okay, Well, yeah, yeah, I mean that that's absolutely correct, because I mean, yeah,

like those sort of psycho psychedelic substances and stuff. Yeah, they can open your mind, but they are as they are ultimately drawing from your mind, drawing from your past

experiences and beliefs in some capacity. The way I always describe it is that, like, psychedelics are an acceleberance to the fire that you've already built, and they can make it flare up, and it can be really cool and awesome, and it can flare up and be utterly terrified and be like oh no, no, no, no, no no no no, but it's always kind of amplifying the things that are you've already built through like the kindling of yourself. Yeah.

It psychedelics do not create things um within you, but they can lead you to realize things you wouldn't already realize, or they can lead you to reinforce things that you're already doing. And it kind of depends on what you go into it with. It's like you know, Leary said, it's I think it was leally set setting in dose, and like your mind set is one of the most important things for what's actually going to happen when you

when you take psychedelics. Yeah, and if you're a Nazi, you can get better being a Nazi from taking as if you're a Nazi, you're gonna see Hitler pull up, Yes, my son, continue the good work. That's That's the thing a lot of people don't understand when I've tried to, like when I tried to talk to people who are like really obviously pro psychedelics and like, yeah, they're so like freeing that you think about new ways, And then I explained to them, there's like, well this isn't this

is an easy segue. But if somehow the conversation goes to the point to be talking about all the Nazis who do psychedelics and and then like do like weird esoteric rituals while doing like like psyched drugs, they can confuse these people because like how could you be a Nazi? Well, you're you know, in that mindset, and like, well it's actually for all of yeah, for all these reasons that we've discussed, it can actually assist within that like it's

like fantastical, genocidal, conspiratorial thinking. It can really can really give that a lot, a lot of credence in someone's brains, because especially if you've spoken to someone who has taken psychos and I've had a specific kind of experience, you can't talk them all to that experience. Yeah, as far as they consume that is that is solidified in the mind. You know, this is reality. I just had a glimpse that the reality kind of thing, you know. Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

It's one of those like if you want, if you want an illustration of how psychedelics do not work the way some people claim, just make a note of the fact that at every street fight between fascists and anti fascists in Portland, both sides, every single person had fucking weed on them, Like the fucking the far right like smoking pot as much as everybody else. Um, they just also do cocaine. Where is where is? Antifa does yeah, yeah,

and does ketamine. The Proud Boys do cocaine, and they both have everybody's got joints, and both people and people and people on both sides have dropped acid and taking shrimps.

Yeah I can. I can say this from a point of journalistic certainty because during one of the rallies where there was a permitted event at the Federal Park, the police were there and telling people they could not take weed onto the Federal Park because it was federally illegal, and every like both sides, people were like alright, shit, Michael, turning back because they couldn't walk on with the weed

in their pockets. That's gonna who kind of wounds to me because m I don't know if you all saw this teet I put on recently, Like there's still this resistance to drugs and particularly to like kind of this and you would think that, you know, after decades of research and decades of understanding and really decades, not even decades, centuries of its use in various you know, religious and spiritual practices that by now, you know, in a post colonial country would reach the point where you know, we

let it go and we deternalize it. But although the we're kind of in the process of it, we still have this situation where the police are like constantly burning down like fields of cannabis. Like they pull up and they're like, we just seized and burned down like one million dollars worth of cannabis and arrested. This is than the others, Like, why are we still at this point where um, basic basic like plants and tubs and medicines and whatnot. Still he saying this stigma it's not grounded

in any sort of reality or logic. You know, it's just colonially, you're a prejudice. But that was brief aside, Yeah, yeah, I the only thing I have much left to see boat Island and brief New World. Well, you know, listeners, go home, put on some Hitler speeches, drop some absolutely absolutely not that is the worst idea. Do not do that, Go to the woods, go do basically literally anything else besides that specific thing. It's that specific thing that is different.

Different people can can disagree. No, like that is like one of the worst things to do to your own brain and psyche. Absolutely not. Yeah, just do whatever, whether literally anything else. Watch Star Trek, put on, put on off the I have. I've watched a lot of Star Trek while tripping. See, there's there's so many better things to do that that thing you've said. Mm hm, go watch the movie Conspiracy starring Kenneth brand Of a shipload of mescal and that could be funny. They don't even

know what mescaline is, neither instructions. Do not compute if if acid made time different? What? Yeah, that's kind of mescaline. I mean, mescaline is like the the active thing inside pot. Yeah, mescalin is is a psychedelic the most intense time dilation I've ever experienced, where like you will feel like weeks have passed and it's been like seven hours. Um, it's

pretty dope. I definitely recommend mescal and everybody go take mescaline even where at that, Um, well you if you, if you, there is a way to get the cact which are legal pretty much everywhere because they're just cactuses and a lot of people use them decoratively, and then using a what do you call the pressure cooker, you can you can get the mescal and out of the cacti. I've known people who have done it. I have not personally done it. Obviously, that would that would that would

be a crime. Never criminal. We would never, we would never advocate that. Yeah, but but there are ways too. There are ways that like a person with minimal resources can get mescal and out of out of the right cactus. And people have done it, you know, So there's the criminals have done people. There's this thing anyway. Yeah, alright, Saint Andrew, that was awesome. I'm gonna go to read Island now. Um it's a good world. And I haven't

read this. I would write bummed, I guess at the end of this, I am kind of bummed that as as imaginative guy as he was, his This was his final book too, well, in his utopian story had to end with it being crushed essentially by industrial expansion. Yeah, and like co option, I mean like it is it is, it is interesting. Yeah, this this was his final book. This was like his like send off in like in

a way. That's that's an interesting component, right because like in Ireland yet like the utopian society, but there is a king, yeah, and a queen mother, but not they don't have like the kind of power that you know, we were typically, Um we still upon kings and queen mothers. You know, they're still they're still able to destroy the society ultimately by collaborating with the military dictator enighbor and

the industrialist oil guy. But I mean they are not really that involved in the day today run into their society, you know, like Hallo would be the same with without them. And interestingly, the reason they were taking parts in the destruction upon these societies because they were educated in Europe by Christians and then went back to Parlo. Yeah, it's

interesting because he's kind of playing with it. Sounds like the same thing Token was, because like Jared Tolkien at the end of his life kind of identified himself as like this weird sort of monarchist anarchist where he wanted there to be thought the ideal society was one in which people, you know, there was people could not exercise power over each other, but there was a little hierarchy, and that you had a king who couldn't actually do anything,

whose purpose was to act as a figurehead. Um and I I don't entirely get what he was going through here. He wrote a lot on the subject himself. And it's interesting that Huxley is kind of playing with the same idea, but is is obviously being like, well, this is a bad idea. You know, it could only work for so long, um, YadA, YadA. I don't know. I find that compelling. Again, I want to read this, and that's something I may dig into more.

Is kind of like how Token conceived of the ideal sort of monarchy versus how how Huxley was thinking about it. I think that's kind of interesting. Yeah, well that's gonna do it for us here, and it could happen here. Uh Garrison tour dot com to sponsored to dot com. No, just drop some acid and Google Hitler. Okay again, like seriously, don't don't, don't literally do anything else. Don't do that. The woods are lovely, the beach is magnificent. Talk to

the ocean. It's so much mountain mountain unless you yea like something. Yeah yeah, go to a to have go to a comic con U literally think my suggestions. I will talk about that experience at a later date. All right, that is uh, that is the show. Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the Universe. It Could Happen Here

is a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.