It Could Happen Here Weekly 20

give this a try, visit spreaker dot com. That's sp r e a k e er dot com. Get paid to talk about the things you love. I'm j Calburn, host of deep Cover. Our new season is about a lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago. He bribed judges and even helped a hit man walk free until one day when he started talking with the FBI and promised that he could take the mob down. I've spent the past year trying to figure out why he flipped and

what he was really after. Listen to deep Cover on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to our show. I'm Zoe Deschanel and I'm so excited to be joined by my friends and cast mates Hannah Simone and Lamar and Morris to recap our hit television series New Girl. Join us every Monday on the Welcome to Our Show podcast, where we'll share behind the scenes stories of your favorite

New Girl episodes. Each week, we answer all your burnie questions like is there really a bear in every episode of New Girl? Plus you'll hear hilarious stories like this that was one of your things you brought back from yea all professional basketball players. Yeah, listen to the Welcome to Our Show podcast on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let you know.

This is a compilation episode. So every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's gotta be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions. What a all right? The show started, Garrison. Hey, we're gonna be talking about Canada again, so yeah, um and to discuss Canada and politics and the happenings here.

We have another journalist who writes for I Believe Anti Hate Canada and like the Canadian Anti Hate Network and also Vice. I Believe Right, I've written for Vice. I'm currently researching full time and extremism researcher for It's a new initiative called the Online Hate Research and Education Project. It's actually partnered with the Canadian Anti Hate Network and it's it's under the new Burger Holocaust Education Center, which

might be renaming very soon. I'm I'm very excited for you guys to get into a twit their fight with James Lindsay. I can't wait. So, yes, Dan here has joined us to talk about Canada because I've gotten a few messages about this thing that's happening. My mother, who's in Alberta called me a few days ago to talk about this thing that's happening. So it's been it's it's I'm getting a lot of things, and it's definitely worth discussing, specifically on some of the rhetoric that people are using

around this. So I'm actually I'm gonna I'm gonna hand it to Dan to talk about what like how did this thing, like what is it? And how did it kind of get started? Yeah, well, so Garrison is not alone, by the way, for anyone not in Canada. Every single person's mother in the entire country is called using about it. I just got another message literally right now, like literally this second. It's gonna nothing. Moms of Canada have been activated.

Moms in Canada, I've been activated, but not in exactly the same way that they're being perceived to be. So the quote unquote trucker convoy, which I might get into a little bit later, but I'm kind of like against even calling it a trucker convoy. Yeah. It was started on January and by a former Wigsit party now called the Maverick Party member Tomorrow Lich and a group of like very active far right grassroots protesters. You do a lot of organizing like this, uh, and most of them,

most of their activities kind of go back to tea. Yeah, they go back a decent a decent amount. Yeah, like this, I mean there's links to people that have been doing it in the nineties in Canada's movement right now, but a non binding motion against U I think it's a M three. A few years ago really mobilized people, and it's kind of been more consistent since then of the

same groups of people. Yeah, that's that's when we talked about in our first Canada episodes about kind of how we got to that point and now like those same people are still kind of behind what's going on right now. So yeah, there's this alleged caravan of truckers of all the truckers in Canada going going to Ottawa, um and Canada a truckers and so this thing was kind of originally organized by some like known far right figures and the people associated with like the Canadian Yellow Vests, which

kind of died down, but it didn't die down. It just morphed, right, morphed into a very strong anti vax of presence in Canada right now, the antibacks movements getting a lot of popularity in Canada, and it's run by these guys who were doing we Exit, which is like West Exit, but for like it's it's it's like for Alberta NBC to go away from Canada because the rest

of Canada's too liberal. Um, so we Exit and the Elves have really changed all of their focuses into this anti vax thing as a way to do recruiting, and they've prompted this kind of movement of truckers going to Ottawa UM for few specific reasons, which I think Dan probably knows a little bit more about than I do. Like I I know the gist of it, but you've

been focused on the on this slightly more than I have. Yeah, I guess the main reason is it works um like just from the perspective of getting attention and being able to get a message out. UM. There's been a lot of traction on this that these scripts don't normally get.

I think the last trucker convoy UM that was done under this sort of umbrella, it had like nine I think was the total amount of like trucks that made it to Ottawa the last time this was trying to be done and it was basically the same demands and the same reasons. So this one was started on January and it didn't get that much fuzz the first couple of days. The original goal was set at a hundred

thousand dollars. I don't remember the exact time, but once it hit that pretty fast, and it hit the first million pretty fast. In ways that like these fundraisers really really don't. Like the last big one we saw in Canada that was quite alarm me in that fast cap out under four thousand dollars and that was um for a barbecue for a barbecue that got defied protests last year and uh ended up getting like all it's it's a bad door shut down. So there's a lot more

money now in this one. Yeah, because this this fundraiser which was supposed to go like hand in hand with these truckers protesting the vaccine mandates because they're upset that they're not allowed to truck into these states because they're not vaccinated. So they have decided to all truck into Ottawa as like a pseudo strike slash like blockade type thing because they're saying that they were not going to do our jobs and we're gonna kind of block off

access to these roads um until this mandate is is removed. Now. Of course, the funny thing here is that the mandate that to enter to not being allowed to enter the States to do your trucking roads, that's not a mandate by Canada that's done, but that like that's the rule in the United States because you're entering the United States. They're the States is actually the ones to being the block edge. The government has no control over this. Yeah,

it's not like it's not actually the thick. The way to get the message out and support is incredibly effective because something I think like percent there was a survey recently of Canadians are against the mandate, which is like really huge um for like Canada's anti vax movement to kind of get that like support and like a lot of people are mobilized too. By there's a trend of posting. It starts with four chain of tea, but it's getting revived a lot again now of people posting like empty

grocery stores. Even a Conservative member of parliament recently posted an empty grocery store. And as for people's emails to try to like change the laws, it turned out to be from the UK. It was a stock photo. Uh. And there's been like even like the stores themselves have had to come out and make statements being like we're not we're not empty. We have we have like we are in the process if we restocking. That's up in the US to where it's like we're literally emptying that

shelf to move stuff from storms. We've had really bad snowstorms for a lot of the real photos of like empty shelves and it's just like, oh no, the salads tap out and the store just make a statement. It's like, yeah, we had two snowstorms a day in a row on

our truck. But like the narrative that they're trying to push is like these these mandates are causing these shortages um and and the propaganda is working even though it's all on a false premise, because first of all, it's not like that that those aren't that that's not causting that the second of all, complainingly to Canada's that's not Canada's not the one who's making the restrictions and the States are the one that's that's blocking from doing this.

But but it's it's not actually about these issues. It's that's not the reason why you're getting all these people driving to Ottawa because there is a lot of people. There's not many trucks, but but there is there is a decent amount of people. You know, it's that that are that are going this because it's not it's not actually about these specific issues. It's this general um like seething hatred of Trudeau and like a generalized grievance that

has gotten this broad support. It's gotten enough financial backing the fundraisers what like like like over six million dollars now, um. And it's it's not like it's just what it actually is is an incoherent kind of intention just to go to the capital and cause problems, right. That that's what they're actually that. That's what like the underlying thing is for a lot of a lot of the like explaining

why it's gotten so picked up. Some some official demands like have been put out and they would be even more confusing like to read than like some of them are there. A couple of the most recent ones are just very general like stop this divisive nature that our government is imposing kind of thing, like I'm paraphrasing, but it's it's really quite bland. Um. Some demands from sangital groups involved. One they say they won't leave until Trudeau steps down. Others say at one point said until every

politician stopped down, stepped down. I think that was when before someone kind of pushed in more realisticals into the movement. But like in terms of like what they're talking about,

for like the rhetoric surrounding it. We're seeing a lot of rhetoric around the sentence being like we this can be our version of January six, but like they're saying that like in a good way, like that's that's the thing that at least some of the organizers, And then it's being carried out into like the generalized rhetoric is that this this should be our own version of this, which is which is interesting on a few ways, but like also like this would not have been said like

seven months ago, but it's being said now, which means like there's been a shift in how January six is being viewed. There was this initial like really distancing and now it's like it's becoming almost like more acceptable to acknowledge that it was maybe a good thing in your eyes. And it's like that's an interesting rhetorical shift that that's

been going on. But then it's also concerning on just like a regular level to be like, yeah, these people wanted these people are saying they want to do their own January six. That has obviously physical implications for all these people trying to drive to Ottawa do either blocking

off roads or just like making the government inoperable. Yeah, a coast streamer or a streamer in what's called the Plaid Army, and now that's sometimes kind of just being rebranded as like Diagalon network quote unquote, which we can get into more, but it's it's gonna be sillier. Yeah, they're they're kind of their own, they're their own issue

for later. Yeah, they're their own issue. But it was one of their streamers who is very tangently connected to like a lot of the the far right people that are involved in this protest movement leaning up to and in fact Pat King, who was officially one of the organizers of the convoy until he wasn't and then he was again. That was a whole dramatic thing for a day,

like he streamed alongside Plaid Army guys before. Um so someone on Plaid Army said, and I would quote I would like to see our own January six event, see some of those truckers plow right through that sixteen football and on January that was put up on CTV News made Alive, and it's kind of scared a lot of people. I think. At that point, former Conservative leader Andrew Sheer had already voiced support for the convoy there's been a lot of other like members of Parliament stuff voicing support

for the convoy. Uh, some of whom really didn't seem to know like what was involved and really just kind of heard Tenant like in passing, Oh it's against these mandates and I opposed these mandates too, and it's like, if I think it's the true DEALU base well, side on, it's gonna help you. You're gonna help your political career. Yeah, yeah,

it's completely true. So have they actually started like blocking roads or is it just a bunch of random people driving down to like driving So there's there's a few differently converging points of the convoy. I think I would say probably the biggest one. Um, but it's it's hard to kind of keep track. Uh started in British Columbia and it's going So for this, I'm sure not everyone knows like math for Canada. So like here, just Columbia's

like our west coast. That's our our California. UM, and Ottawa is it's close to the west and it's in Ontario, but it's on the border of Quebec and Ontario, and that's where our parliament is. That's our capital city. So it's coming from every which way, but I think the largest contingent comes from British Columbia and it just basically goes eastward to Ottawa, picking up people along the way. Yeah, yeah,

it's it's it's, it's it's heading in that direction. Um, how do we know about I know some people have kind of already some people have kind of already sort of arrived in Ottawa, but most mostly people are expected to more arrive in the next Like, well, we're recording this Thursday night, so this episode will probably come out on Monday. Um, people are expected to arrive on Saturday is the day that next. People are expecting like everybody to be there at least have an understanding of it.

The convoy itself arrives Saturday. Um, there are people like coming from further east who are like staying overnight in town and kind of just showing up the Parliament events. So like, by by all accounts, the Parliament show will probably be a lot bigger than the so far. Yeah, I guess we haven't mentioned numbers yet, numbers nor like what what they actually really plan on doing once they get there, because it's been so much talking about like

why this got started. And what's the like driving motivational factors? Yeah, like their their goal is to get to a place and do a thing, and and that's the Yeah, the thing is that's it's mostly unclear. And I have seen discussions about like blocking on like doing like trying to assemble like a trucking strike. Um, and then like blocking off accesses so that the government is forced to obey

their demands or else like the country will shut down. UM. Then some people maybe are just kind of doing it as a one day protest. It's it's it again, it is it is. It is pretty unclear, but people are headed to their UM, what what is the what is the numbers? At least from where we can see like online and stuff. So their numbers have been the number of trucks. Yeah, fifty people became fifty trucks very quickly. UM. And that same number I think Rogan repeated it, I know,

said yeah, yeah, Joe Rogan said it. THEO Fleury one on Laura Ingram and repeated the fifty thousand number. He said, fifty thousand truckers, not trucks specifically. UM. As far as I know, THEO Fleury has no official involvement Convoy and it's just a fan and it is just repeating some numbers that like organizes themselves have kind of echoed. Um. This is also complicated for me because this is very

troubling in a lot of ways. But also I'm a huge fan of the song Convoy, so this is really devastating. Please continue, It's all right. Yeah, So Canada spurr It protest movement has kind of happened doing this in February of Kelly and Farcas, who's like a mainstay of the

anti mask, anti VAXX movement. Uh. And in between when I'm talking about and right now actually dated Pat King for a while, who's kind of the most uh outspoken person organizing the current convoy claimed that a hundred thousand people were coming to Parliament for what was then like an anti mask demonstration. Before the event, data will look changed to fifty uh. And I was actually there, it

looked closer to like two people. I had friends that had counted like hundreds and seventy people, so not quite fifty uh. For all intents and purposes, the current one will be longer. Reporters doing great journalism along the way have estimated up to like four hundred people so far, um, including I think fifteen trucks outside the bass Pro shop in Toronto this afternoon. I was counted. Side note, if nothing else, got to give them points for stopping at

bass Pro in Toronto. It's a pretty sweet bas Pro. Do you love a good bass Pro shop? My favorite is the one they built into the Giant Pyramid. Yeah, obvious, Nashville, baby, So the bass Pro in Toronto, if you're ever in town, Robert, it's the only place around that I've been told that sells sub sonic twenty two rounds. So if you're like in the woods, so I feel like in the woods, but like you don't want to like scare your neighbors

because the woods aren't bad. Big Yeah. I used to have some friends and I used to go shooting in a suburban neighborhood with two because it's technical. Don't don't do that. Definitely it was there was it was legal, Oh right, Canada doesn't I do not. I don't endorse them, might have. Might have to cut this part out for regional sharing. Go leave this all late, just a bunch of words, make it nonsense with bleeping please continue. Yeah, so only fifteen trucks were counted by CBC at that point.

Um and like videos and stuff have been right, Yeah, yeah, there might be a couple dozen slightly short. But I think by the time Bobby Saturday, I think there's a decent chance that there might be maybe around fifty trucks to a hundred trucks. If there's anything more than like five hundred, all of the media footage will look like there's fifty. That's enough trucks, Like nobody's cameras going to

be able to show the extent of them realistically. And then yeah, once they're there, it's unclear what they want to do. Some people just want to do the function up thing. Some people want to carry on the tradition of like what the most of the anti like vacs anti mask protests in Canada have been, which have been pretty big, But it's been it's been, it's been mostly standing with signs. UM so it is it is it?

It is really unclear because again, most of the truckers in Canada probably are not going to be there nor to necessarily endorse this idea. UM nor is like right because they're pressing the their their whole initial issue is not even based on an actual like thing. So it is I'm not sure how many people are really gonna show up because I don't know even how specific it

is to an issue. UM one. One just really interesting, funny, interesting thing that I thought about is like with with some of these people you know talking about you know, going to Ottawa and not leaving until the mandates are dropped with the entire government resigns. Like these people who are talking about this like block engine shortage and stuff are also like the same people who get very angry and Indigenous people for blocking off roads and trails um

for like oil and pipeline protests. A lot of them, yeah, some of them. Some of them are indulged in pretending

and stuff like pat King. Back in September, Um kind of went on like a kick where he just let a lot of people believe he was Indigenous and claimed someone not correct them that is that is weird, and a family member of him went on Facebook and like bombarded people with information that he was not in fact Indigenous, and it was all very weird and a lot of people held them to comments in the past where he talked about Anglo Saxon's having the strongest bloodlines. Uh yeah,

that is. I think Pat pat King probably deserves his own little deep dive on one of the pods. But but yeah, like it's it is like with all the people talking about blockheads and stuff all you most of them coming from like the western side of Canada. Um it is. It is uh yeah, like you're you're talking about all these things and like there's really big pro oil sentiments and all of the in all of this crowd because a lot of it is connected to financial

and political stuff, not necessarily even this vaccine issue. It's been more like a symbol to just represent their general kind of upsettedness at the way at the way things are going for them. It's interesting to me. So when I first heard about this, my I was I was like, oh, okay, so this is gonna be like the Chilean truckers and I was like, okay, well this is really bad. But it's like it's interesting to me, like how few people they've been able to mobilize, Like that's like not a

large number of truckers like that. It's get Yeah, it looks like a lot of like vehicles when you when you see like footage photos and videos like like in I'm gonna like a lot of like Telegram and Facebook groups of just people just like sharing pictures and photos of the rally of the convoy passing through their talent and like it's like what Robert said, like it's here when it fills up both sides of the camera and you have a wide depth of field, it looks huge

and it's it's really hard to count. Uh. The money is preposterous. Also, side note on on the money um The funds were frozen a few days ago on the twenty five, but today one million dollars was released back to them because they gave go fund me a pretty clear plan allegedly according to go fund me for for how they're gonna distribute it. The rest of the it's it's I think it's like six point seven million now, so the rest of the five point seven million I

think is still frozen. Okay, well it is. It is, so it is so much money. Uh yeah, we should do something like that. They could They could actually buy truck nuts for a dred and fifty thousand truckers, which is the most I've seen them. Guests, truckers are coming. They could buy it all or truck nets off Amazon for all of them and still have the vast majority of their funds left over. Yeah, but see that would be an act of actual heroism, and they're not going

to do that. The reason why I wanted to talk about this is one to like acknowledge that it's happening, right, acknowledge the tactics that they're using in terms of trying to go into an urban area and block off like trade routes essentially, um. And then I wanted to talk about like, first of all, it doesn't matter that like the fact that this is happening is divorced from any kind of direct cause, right because they're they're actual grievance

is false and their grievance doesn't really actually matter. It just needs there needed to be some kind of cultural or propaganda push in order for this physical action to happen. And that's been done. It doesn't even need to be like coherent um. And then escalation people driving here doing

this thing. And then I know there was this one interview, um I forgot on what news channel, but they interviewed this one trucker guy part of a part of this con part of this convey in my hometown of Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. Um and he's he said, um, I advocate civil war. If people don't want to step up, we have guns, will have some we'll stand up and we'll bring them out. But like, so that's the quotes, like in the fact that you're just openly saying I advocate civil war in

relation to this movement is like my goals. My goal here is being like people fantasize about Canada's being a place to escape, you know, like Canada is like the other from the States, and like, no, it's the same, Like we are like where you cannot escape away from fascism. There is no really there's no real away right now in terms of there's no safe ground. It can spread to where you are and for people living in Canada.

When you have people on the news on like Global News saying I advocate civil war within the context of this of this like, um, you know, convoy movement, it is it is an actual thing worth paying attention to. It is an actual problem of it's it's huge and earlier today and I might pronounce his name on but Dale Manuk, doc from CBC Toronto, tweeted a story because he on behalf of CBC contacted an actual organizer of

the convoy. They have different regional organizers and and their website list them all um and it had Patking funny side dot it had pack King listed as an organizer while they're go fund me had a statement saying they had no connection to him, which was very funny. But yeah, So CBC Toronto contacted them and the guy responded, enough lies you quote slate blooded trader. Evil will get its due in the end. And after a little yeah after yeah, after it, back, yeah, after it, back and forth, very

brief back and forth. Uh, and just like a couple of questions. Uh, the organizer ended with, you know, you toe the line for the global corporate coup taking place under the guys of public health. You can't be that dumb traders will swing in time. Oh boy. Yeah. I do think Americans don't fully understand how much the anti vacks movement is tied to far right politics with in Canada and it's like been like the driving force of far right politics for the past two years and it's

gotten so much larger. Um. It is like it is, it is. It is a thing like when when you have when you have people on camera saying we want to January six, I advocate a civil war, talking about not leaving until the government either resigns or mandates are dropped, and then threatening physical violence on top of that. Um yeah, like it's it is. It is a thing that could happen there, And that's kind of why I wanted to

talk about it. Is like, yeah, when I have my mother calling me dozens of messages from random people like worried about this, then yeah, it's it is an issue, like I've it's it's it's not it's not not a thing. O. The rhetoric is so universal against uh anyone they perceived to be leftist too, that it is really dangerous. Like there's been a little bit of talk of like counters

in Ottawa. Um, when the numbers are this big, like there's no safe weight for people to to stop that sort of thing, especially when all all the vehicles are on that side. Like it's a it's dangerous. There's a lot of violent stuff, um even uh, like I was looking today the People's Party of Canada's they got like five percent of votes in our last selection. They had a little bit of a scandal, uh during our election, which is at the end of last year. Um, where

a writing director for I think it's am. It's the great area of London. It is Elgin, Middle six, London, so they're they're writing directors and not their member of parliament writing. Um was revealed to uh post like sculpt mask not tea memes and memes comparing Bernier, the leader of his own party, to Hitlert, so like probably not a negative comparison, Um, And he was not fired for it, but he was fired after it came out that he was being charged for throwing rocks at our prime minister. Yeah.

He actually, he recently said on a live stream he was asked he was currently on trial and he said yeah, I mean as far as I know, Like he's been posting images of like trucks running people over and that's just like one connection to h to the legitimacy of it all, Um, Like you, I mean the plat army guys, the ones who talked about driving the truck sixteen feet,

they're also connected with Bernier. They've had Randy Hillier on their podcast before, who's a sitting politician and a member of provincial parliament, which is kind of like our state senate equivalent. Over here. Um, they've they've had him on and like there there's some like legitimacy to it, um getting on and when you just talk about the broad

movement in general. Former Conservative Party of Canada leader Andrew Shear, who had kind of a rocky departure from the party because he alleged leaves campaign funds to pay for his kids private school. So I not like he had already signed on and endorsed and been interviewed. Erin O'Toole, the current leader of the of the Conservative Party ah just today actually h said he was going to engage with them.

Earlier this evening, Sergeant in Arms Packrins McDonald sent an email to our parliamentarians ahead of Saturday's trucker convoy protests and quoting Justin Link's twitter here, there have been attempts to collect mpeas home addresses. As such, the Sergeant at Arms is advising to avoid the rally and go somewhere safe. That apparently wasn't listened to Erin O'Toole, who said I'm gonna do it anyways, and Justin Link tweeted later tomorrow,

I will be meeting with truckers. A tool announces right after Parliamentary Security warned MPs to avoid the pro us entirely. So it's not great. Yeah, I mean again, this will probably come out after Saturday, So if we don't talk about this again, then that means probably it's good. I mean, they showed up, they protest, and they conticipated if we're following this up in a few days with another episode,

that that be something bad happen. But again, even even at this point, it is still worth talking about in terms of like the generally like this is like this is the kind of like the net of why this is so important for everybody is what you were saying about, Like, when you've got this many people, this many trucks coming from an outside and moving into a city, there's very

little that can be done against them. Um, like, there's not there's not really much of an effective counter other than trying to get another massive people in cars to confront them, and that's, um, you know, a potentially dicey situation. So this remains a very powerful tactic. We've seen it used all over the United States too, like, and it's this idea of like blockading a city. Even though this is kind of the earliest step in taking that is is this is gonna be the last time people try

to extend to this logic. Yeah, So that's that's kind of the surrounding cultural reasons and shifts and rhetoric and like applicable nous as like an act of like an act of like protest or like like revolt or insurgency, whatever whatever you want to use. Is there's interesting because like a lot of these other interesting thing about the States compared to Canada is like the States we have like we have like an actual like far right movement, like we have like we have like conservatives, when then

we have like the far right movement in Canada. That that distinction is not much of a thing. A lot of a lot of there is. There is some far right figures trying to push stuff forward, absolutely, but a lot of like the space in between conservative far right is kind of a little bit more fluid. Like a lot of these people who are showing up are not

like far right protesters. They are kind of regular conservatives, but they're still getting sucked into saying I advocate a civil war like that is just a regular conservative dude. He's not a member of any kind of political thing. He's it's like it's that is just that is just kind of what this culture on the western side of Canada really really like a kind of defaults to almost when when you start going into this kind of like anti Trudeau territory, because that's the their their their main

their main politics is anti Trudeau. Like that is that is what they are. So anything that gets to that point is allowed, whether that is conservative or that is like more far right, as long as it's anti Trudeau, then it's it is a valid politic. And that's another distinction in the state that there's a thing in the Canada that I don't really see as much in the States. It's very familiar to me when you talk about how anti Clinton is um fed into Trump is um like

that that is I think a worthwhile comparison. And because there were a lot of American conservatives who could get in bed with anybody if they were staying against Hillary or Bill um cool stuff. Well, this is all fun. I hope to not talk with you about this again, Um, but there is a chance there is a chance people have conversations, um if you wouldn't want to after af this episode airs, if people want to see what happened, right because this this air is probably Monday, um, and

the convoys set to arrive on Saturday. Where can they find work talking about this, whether that be like your Twitter feed or um if you know, if any you know articles are planned. Yeah, so I'm planning on live tweeting. UM. I can't make any promises because safety is always a thing and I won't to know what it looks like

until Saturday happens. But I'm planning on live tweeting. My Twitter is at spineless L. That's the word spineless and then just the letter L. So yeah, you can check in on his account to see if he has a thread by the time this episodes out. Um, And yeah, that's how that's how you can kind of figure out what happened if you're just listening to this now and then in the time, there'll be a lot of Attawa media covering it if you just want to see the fallout.

I imagine the Canadian Antia New Work might talk about it more. They put on an article today on it that that covers more of the kind of problems that the far right that we talked about today than the most other media will go into. They did. Uh, that was a very good article. And then also today um I Elon Musk tweeted and support of the Canadian truckers.

So just in terms of let's just as as a good example, I think this situation is a really great way to start thinking about politics and culture UM and how they relate to each other, and how this type of thing succeeds and how it succeeds UM and why this rhetoric is so successful in bringing in so many people in Canada and raising six million dollars almost seven million dollars. But anyway, that is that is the show

one more plug dance so people know where to find you. Uh, I only really am active on Twitter, so again it's at fineless out the word spineless is then I don't have a spine. And then the letter L on Twitter, thank you plug your get her account. You're getting wow yeah, real real get our user vibes coming off of Dan the only social media platform that Joe Rogan looked at and said, Robert's just trying to get me to plug my sock puppet accounts. Yeah, everyone, this is fucking off.

You could follow all my sock puppets at Fascist Wizard dot c a of anyway that is uh that that doesn't for our show. Thank you for listening, and yeah, convoys Canada Can't Can't Escape excellent. If you're having what grows in the forest trees? Sure no one else grows in the forest. Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too, because when we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest

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your podcasts. It's the New Year's again. Whoa. Yeah, welcome, Welcome to the Year the Tiger. This is a special special lunar New Year's edition of It could Happen here, a podcast that he is today just about well, it's still about sort of things falling apart and things being rebuilt. But I wanted to specifically, you know, do do it

do it? Do a special luniar Year's episode and spend some time, I think talking about Chinese nous and how what sort of being a part of the Chinese diaspora in sort of in the US and Canada is like, and you know how how that how the influence is, how we organize, how what what we're afraid of, what we're sort of proud of? Um. And with me to talk about this, we have j n who I think first time I ever returning guests. Yeah, who is it works with claus On? Hello j n Oh what an honor.

Thanks thanks for inviting me back. Yeah, thank you for coming. And we also have Jane She who is a queer Chinese settler living in unseated traditional and ancestral territories and Bisquian Sasquamish and slave with tooth nations in what is falsely and fakely considered Canada. Um. She is a poet, writer, editor, and an organizer and does many other cool things. Hello Jane, Welcome, Welcome to the show. Hello, thank you for having me.

Um just wanted to share that it's Muscuiam squamish and tooth. Yeah. Sorry. I Fortunately I do not live up north and so my my pronunciations of tribal names are even worse than they are for the tribal dames that are around me. So my apologies. No where is nowhere. So al right, before we get into a bunch of extremely grim stuff, I wanted to because this is the this if you will be listening to well, okay, unless listening to this on Monday night, in which case, uh, congratulations on beating time.

But most of your probably gonna listen to me listening to this on on lunar New Years, and so I wanted to before yeah, before everythink it's completely dark. I want you to know what you choose favorite Chinese New Year's food is because this is like my favorite holiday and it's basically my favorite holiday because in Grand Chinese tradition, it's just an excuse to eat a lot. So yeah,

opening the floor up. Yeah, I think you're the expert here, Jane, so feel free to I am not laid on the knowledge. I am not an expert. Just because I fault dumplings does not mean I'm a ne expert. But I I mean I haven't spent like lunar New Year's with really that many other people in a very long time, so my sense of like breath of food has really really narrowed to what is available to me. Um. And I also have been really struggling with the dumplings that I've

been making because of like carpal tunnel issues. But I've been thinking a lot about jellyfish lately. Like I keep thinking about jellyfish, and I keep thinking about like the sesame anything with sesame in it. Yeah, and like just boiled dumplings I feel like are really great for me at this particular moment. Yeah, my favorite is uh. In Cantonese, it's called me and go, which is it's a comment

really yes, um. And the way my mom used to make it all the time was like dipping it in an egg first, um, And so it has this kind of like eggy crust on it, which is really really awesome. And I've been making that for the past couple of years myself where I am, and I can't wait to go to the grocery store and grab some because it's only available around this time. I guess they don't really

produce it any other time. And last time I went to visit my mom, she like loaded my suitcase full of them and that was able to eat them fast enough, unfortunately, and some of them went fast. Oh no, we have we have one in our refrigerator. I think it's I think it's it was in the freezer. It's now, I think in the refrigerator and all incredibly excited to cut into it on New Year's Yeah, do you do? You guys do the because I know so we we only

have red bean ones. I know there's like brown sugar one. Is there something that are like plane wait? I just wanted to check, like is it nanal? Yeah? Or at least so like the sort of like flower thing that is like shaped like a semicircle. Yeah wait, yeah, I feel like there's different circle. Yeah. We usually cut them into like like square strips, but I think that's just like a cooking ease of cooking thing. Yeah, And it usually comes with like a date or something on top. Yeah,

when it's packaged. That's so interesting because I feel like the nanoal that I grew up with doesn't usually have a lot of things on it. It's kind of like sticky and kind of plane and I'm just this is this is a new thing for me. Yeah. Yeah, the ones we usually get just has red beans in it,

and then there's like the one date on the top. Oh, I don't know if you're thinking of like towning Go, which is like a different type of dish um where it's like white rice cakes and then you you can like it's like saucy and then yeah, like different ingredients in it. Yeah, I think it's a different Ours are just that they're like they're they're pretty close to the Yeah, I think I think I'm just talking about the just

regularly and golic. They're just like like they're they're they're they're basically plain, but there's some red being like cirta into the dough and then it's just like the flat brown thing that you like fry. Yeah, all right, this is we've now done dessert chat. I would honest honestly much much less grim time than most of the stuff that happens on here. And you've all been now subjected to it. I go eat Chinese New Year's food, it's great.

Ah yeah. So on two things that are somewhat more grim Um, I think there's there's two big things I wanted to talk about that sort of related to, like I guess Chinese diaspora, nous um. I guess we can start with talking a bit about anti Asian violence and police violence, because I mean it's not like so my sort of into this is that my my someone Okay. So one of the things that's happened in the past about two years was this the huge sort of spike

and anti Asian violence. But then you know, part of what happens politically around that was there was a huge attempt to essentially turn anti Asian violence, is you, I guess like the anti BLM, like especially in the US, But I think I think this happened elsewhere too, where there reserves it didn't I don't know, it worked in

some places and didn't work in other places. So I went to the research Chicago and a few is it a few months ago, now maybe it's a couple of a month that you ago a Asian Chinese international student like got shot on campus and this turned into a huge sort of like bring more cops on campus that there was a huge petition that got signed. It was that people were like asking for security cameras and asking for our cops, and like the u c p D like a couple of weeks later just like shot a dude.

And so that there there's been I've been seeing this tension a lot. I was worrying a f YouTube had also sort of run into similar stuff and what your thoughts, We're on it. UM. I mean, I feel like, unfortunately with Canada, there's like this dynamic where we look to the States for news and validation and this weird way that I find really delegitimizes the unique struggles that are here that are different. UM. There are there's a different kind of police system. There's like the local police like

Vancouver Police Apartment UM. But then there's also the RCMP, the Royal Mountain Canadian Police, which are in other the municipalities. And the RCMP was created specifically UM as a tool of settler colonialism to enforce the Indian Act, which is UM, I guess the most succinctly way I can put it as segregation UM of Indigenous peoples from settlers, and there's a lot of displacement of black communities across Canada. But and there was also slavery in Canada, even though we

like to pretend that there wasn't. And so against this background, I guess um and ongoing like police brutality, whether it's in what's written territories or just the police killing people. There's a lot of mainstream Asian Canadian and Chinese Canadian institutions that are very very much complicit in the system. Like there is an organization, an immigrant Chinese Canadian organization in Vancouver who one of the board members is a

cop who is married to a a city councilor. And a lot of the discourse at institutions not people themselves necessarily, but institutions create around for example, the revitalization of Chinatown or the preservation of culture is around Oh there's graffiti in the neighborhood Chinatown and mancouver Is in the downtown E Side was just considered, um, the poorest post is considered the poorest post a cold in Canada, and it's like a tight knit community with a lot of Indigenous people's,

Black people people in poverty, struggling against the poisoning massacre UM, wherein the government is not providing UM safe supply, and where the police just kind of like are everywhere pointing guns and everyone displacing the tens cities. And so when there is an easy and not an easy but just like a demon, I a group of people that UM,

the general public doesn't know enough about UM. If you walk through the downtowning side and talk to people, you would talk to people about their experiences with residential school, their experiences with missing family members, experiences with poverty and in the in the broadest terms, it's like the way that try and Town is being gentrified. People tend to

blame the poor UM. And there's like this divide and conqueror mentality within the Asian diaspora, whin the Chinese diaspora specifically, and so similar to what happened with UM Michelle go similar to her UM, there was a South Asian elderly woman who a group of people who lived in the intensity had killed pretending to be cops when they knock on her door, and the county one of the city councilors UM in Vancouver was like this, we need to

stop indulging in these tense cities. Um. Meanwhile, there's a lot of like marginalized people in these tense cities who who who can'ts um, who need to live there because it's COVID times and society has abandoned them. So it's like anti Asian racism and violence has also the hate, the so called hate crime thing has so apparently increased, um,

And I don't think that it's hasn't increased. It's just that like the way that the media, the way that the institutions within Canada is also jumping onto the police wagon, the police the hate crime angle rather than learn from abolitionists. Rather, Yeah, this is a long way I'm putting it. It's like simpler, It's simpler and I know a lot of details. Yes, yeah, I mean I think that Yeah, I think that tracks.

I mean the targets are slightly different just based on such a snews but on the sort of local context. But I think that, yeah, that tracks a lot with what we've been seeing here as I think there's a there's another thing that I don't know, So I I really don't like the term, like because the did the Twitter hashtag stop asition hate, Like I hate that framing

of it as sort of hatred and not racism. But even the sort of the anti Asian violence framing, which I've been used a lot, I think has problems because you know, I mean, this is one of the things you were talking about, one of the things that I've

seen a lot. It's just you know, any time, like you know, there are genuine sort of racism attacks, right, but then there's so just like I mean, one of the sort of scare things that happened here was it was like a bunch of people's, like a bunch of restaur like Chinese restaurants got broken into and robbed, and everyone was like, well, this is anti Asian violence, and

it's like, well, no, like this is just theft. And and there there's there's been this sort of like collapsing of something bad happens to an Asian person with specifically sort of like targeted racist attacks, and I think that's been well, I mean, that's been a problem. And there's also the secondary problem of you know who even who

even gets included in this in the first place. Like one of one of the biggest things I've been frustrated about is, you know, the sort of the selective inclusion of South Asian people like I there there was there was a shooting at the fed X facility last year by a guy who was like very much, very far right, kind of like pilled online guy, and it killed a bunch of SEAK workers. And there was never there's just nothing, even like no one talked about is anti ation violence.

But then you know, selectively, you get inclusion to tell these Asian people when it's like it's it's it's like people get folded into being Asian when it's like useful to call from war police. But then when it's you know, not useful for that, or when it's you know, especially when it's working class people getting killed, there's just sort of nothing. And I've been I don't know, I've been really frustrated by this dynamic a lot um. Yeah, and Jan, I want to know what you think about this too,

because I have no talks slowing enough about Yeah. I mean, you know, wasn't there there was a hate crime build that was passed in Congress, right, uh, And there was supposedly quote unquote supposed to be addressing all this quote unquote anti Asian hate stuff. And you know, the only thing that accomplished. Was it created like some some government organ to like oversee these efforts to address hate crimes and then more funding for the police, right, So I

think it was. It was a very kind of direct impact. We could just see how this discourse transformed into exactly what a lot of you know, organizers had said would happen, which is more funny for the police and not making communities safer. Right. So, UM, I think the real conendrum for me and the thing that really kind of you know, I spent a lot of time thinking about this, and I get I get kind of frustrated, is um, you know, whenever these these attacks happen on you know, Asian heritage

or Asian identified people. Um, the response, I mean, it's it's a good natured and it's well meaning, and I agree with it, but you know, the response is always like the telling folks who have been victimized or those who know them, um, that more police is not the answer, right,

And you know, I think that's true. But then I think one struggling with is how to make this message resonate with those folks, right, because I think there's a way that in some ways that can alienate them even more and make them even more reaction right, because that's

you know, the media has often spun that argument. Uh, they use further instances of violence to spin that argument of like when when people say the answer is not more cops, it doesn't make a safer the media is able to spend that to say, look, this isn't working right, it's things are actually getting more dangerous all the kind of like scaremongering tactics with crime statistics and all that stuff,

which are usually false anyway. So I think that's what I'm trying to figure out now is like, you know, because in in Chinatown, l A, where you know, where I've done some work, there was community meetings with c c D, the Chinatown Committee for Equitable Uh what's what's

destan for? I always forget development. Um. They had some meetings with community folks to kind of like, you know, hear what hear what they wanted to do to address this, and they kind of like a lot of those organizers had, um, you know, they're coming from that viewpoint that calling for more cops is not the answer, and so some of

the mail they're from the community, but they're not. They weren't part of the kind of like senior population of Chinatown, which is, you know, it's like low incomes seniors is kind of like are the folks that are being pushed out and by developers and all the gentrification happening as well. Um, some of some men were kind of like, Okay, well we should start kind of like armed neighborhood watch um.

And you know, I think in some way that taps into this kind of like we protect us type of ethos, right, It's it's not relying on a state or government or whatever police paramilitary force. Um. But then I think the question that some folks had I heard the secondhand, was that, um, you know, are are these people actually from the community, and are they actually doing this to address the needs of the folks who are most affected by it? Right? And so I think some folks were uncomfortable with the

idea that there should be these kind of like street patrols. Um. And so there's there's just so many different ways to approach this, and I haven't you know, I'm not laying way or anyone, but I just haven't seen an effective way to counteract that call for more police. Yet. That's a really good point, because I feel like in when especially UM Asian women, people who experience like various forms

of sexual violence or UM street harassment. UM that sense of unsafety is amplified when we witness other people getting murdered in public spaces. And so I think in a way, it's like understandable why people want to grasp for any kind of solution and and also why that kind of trauma can be weaponized or like taken advantage of immediately, like just because I'm like, who asked for you to be street crictials of Chinatown? Who decided that you make

the communities safer? Have you consulted the seniors? Have you have you talked with all of the seniors, all of the elders to ask them, like, how would you feel if I did that? Like where is that suggestion coming from? And I think that like the other argument is that like mental health resources is an alternative to policing, even though UM policing and mental health systems are very, very

very connected. UM. Edward Wong has an article about that in Upping the Anti And I don't know, I just think that like there has to be like a way to talk about this without invalidating each other's trauma. And invalidating um people survival instincts as well, because I feel like UM for years, as someone who's done work in the anti violence sector. It's not that I wanted there to be more policing. It's just that like a lot of survivors might be like, hey, I actually do want

use the court system because this person is dangerous. Like that's like, as somebody supporting a survivor, I can't just go up, no, you're wrong, less cops right, Like that's that's not a compassionate response. And it's also not a compassionate response to go, hey, you're making this like all about yourself and you should like to be talking about like black and Indigenous people like like like that's that's

also really insensitive. So it's like I feel like there's a way that there there is like a way to talk about abolition that really needs to respect every survivor or every like communities like trauma. And it's not an easy thing because it's not like our communities have had a good way to respond to trauma, Like we haven't

really like we're still breaking the cycles of intergenerational trauma. Yeah, and I think this this kind of comes back to another sort of difficulty of this whole project because you know, a lot of the sort of the abolitionist framework is about like transitioning things towards community solutions, But like what is that you know, like, what does that even mean when you're dealing with you know this, this is this is part of the problem with well, okay, you have

armed self defense groups, but you know what happens when inevitably and this is this is just something that happens just you know, this is this is this is the nature of security forces, right is eventually you're going to get a beaters in end. It's like, okay, well what

happens then? And what happens when you know, like the abuses of people inside the community and and this is compounded I think by this problem of like what like what even you know the I think I think there's there's there's there's a broader problem of like what Asian nous is and there they brought up and this is this is also sort of localized problem of like what

even like is the Chinese community at all? Because you're dealing with something that's incredibly fragmented, You're dealing people speak different languages, you're dealing with people who have been in these places for you know, some people have been here for century, some people who have been here like two months. And I think that makes it really difficult in a lot of ways to sort of like even even just

bring together something that could be a community. And I know, I know what happens, and I know, you know there's there's there's lots of different sort of like fragmented communities, but but I think it makes this harder because there isn't a sort of like ready made thing you can turn to and go, Okay, well, this is how we're going, like this is the group of people, and this is the sort of like social sphere, and this is the community that going to turn and to to sort of

deal with this stuff. There's just this kind of a bunch of amorphous different groups. And then also you have the problem that like you know, if you're gonna talk about like political forces nation communities like the Busines associations are extremely powerful, and you know, we have different objectives than they do, but they're also like extremely well organized in a way that most other sort of like Chinese

groups aren't. I don't know that that's that's that's been where my thinking has been going on this, Yeah, I think, um, this there's some residents with what you're saying and the kind of dynamics that you're identifying and what I've kind of witnessed and experienced in like Hong Kong despor organizing and which I think, you know, there's a lot of overlap with that same type of like small business organization type of thing that usually dominates China towns across North America,

which is the case in l A and actually c C. He spends a lot of time fighting the small business organizations UM because they are very friendly with developers UM, and they're usually pro um you know, pro securitization and anti for folks and all that kind of stuff. So there is that that element right where a lot of times, you know, you are fighting against people who might have

to like same heritages for example, UM. And you know, for me personally, that's that's very much the case with Hong Kant ASPERG groups, right because you know, many of them are very conservative, are right wing and not only just kind of held personal beliefs, but advocate a lot for these kind of you know, these policies and politicians and all these different things that I really can't stand

and I'm aligned against UM. And you know, I think it's a lot of folks want to take the kind of pregnantist root of like we'll work with you things that we where we have points of unity, otherwise we don't, Whereas you know, I guess some people see me as as a little bit more rigid in the sense that like I don't want to work with these folks at all, because UM, I see them as kind of themselves as as a force that is causing more hard than good,

especially if with these Hong Kong aspert groups. The usual mantra is like Hong Kong first, like everything that we do is is serving Hong Kong UM, and that you in the desper That usually means kind of like non partisanship, lobbying, congress, all those different things, UM. And then kind of like completely ignoring or being agnostic of local and domestic issues UM. To oversimplify a little bit. So, you know, I think

that's been on my mind a lot. I know your question was about Chinese noess, but I guess for me that that kind of filters a little bit further down to like what is being a Hong Kong. Right, Yeah, it's really difficult to organize with your specific quote unquote ethnic or diaspora community, and the the meaning of diaspora

is not a cohesive community but people's memories of home. Um. It's like a difficult thing to kind of but but your head against because it's like you have your UM diversity, equity, inclusion framework of organizing, and then you have the every day like what what what these frameworks can't simplify, which is the tensions between your communities. Like I didn't grow up experiencing overt racist violence when I grew up in Richmond. UM.

Richmond is an extremely East Asian and Chinese suburb. UM that saw first um, not first but just like at some point a wave of Hong Kong diaspora because of and then afterwards more like mainlanders, um, and so on the playground, somebody was like, are you from Taiwan mainland or or Hong Kong? And that was when I was like seven, And that was my introduction to what it means to be in diaspora in this particular kind of way.

And um being like just right like in that and in that and and figuring yourself out within that and seeing how there was just an absence of community because of how like these different geopolitical experiences have like separated us um and made more difficult um Like when we filter our parents political beliefs onto each other, it's kind

of like this awkward thing. But but I think that like UM in in trying to contend with that in the in the present, it's sort of like, um, we have these older institutions that other people that that the older generations have built. What new things can we build? What things can we um? Because I feel like I'm I'm really rigid too. I'm like really not great at across the aisle. And when I do, it's not it's

not really about anything substantive. It's like hey, like hi, it's good to see you know, Like when you live in a place you you don't want to make like make enemies, but like it's it's a really hard thing, um. And it's even more heartbreaking when you find out slowly that people are just taking advantage of you, right like, and I don't know, it's it's a it's a really difficult thing to organize against when you're like you all hate me, great love it. This has been they could

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Happen Here? Podcast? It recognizes that Lunar New Year's is not, in fact, just one day, and in that spirit, our special New Year's episode is going on for a second day. So there's the rest of our conversation with Jane and Jane.

You know. The other thing I wanted to script touch on like this is I think kind of defferenting off the topic, but I think is also something that I've been running into a lot, which is that like, you know, you have this kind of like you know, you have this kind of bind right because on the one hand, you're stuck between you know, like a lot a lot of the organizing and sort of in Asian communities has

all of these problems. And then you know, okay, well, you know the other thing that's happening is is the sort of mainstream American left and the mainstream American left, I think the Canadian left has problem similar problems with this is like it's a bunch of just like it's a bunch of tankies, it's a bunch of people who love the CCP. It's a bunch of just we are genocide deniers and like people who think that every Asian person who like doesn't like the government is a cia

psi op. And I don't know. This is something that I've like, I mean, I've I ran into a lot trying to, i mean help people doing Kong Kong organizing is something I've run into just in like every organized like I've run, I run into this an anarchist spaces to like it's it's just I don't know, it feels really bad because it's like like you're you're just sort of caught between and I guess it's sort of there is three way triangulation, right because on the one hand,

you have this sort of like you have the local dynamics with you know, the sort of the sentence of the sort of reactionary smum business owners. You have this, you know, the Chinese me also being sort of split in between like pro and anti CCP factions, both of whom have like are absolutely chock full of fanatical right wingers.

It's like, well, okay, it's like the CCP verspout times and it's like I don't want any of them to win and then use them out, and you're caught in the middle of this sort of you're caught in the middle of the sort of I don't know, I think it's sort of like a fox geopolitical struggle, but like one of one of the big sort of ideological conflicts being between both the CCP in the US sort of like using the specter of each other to sort of

like disturb their basis. And I don't know, I am incredibly frustrated by I'm incredibly frustrated by the way that these groups have expected like the ant CCP, like the pro CCP groups are sort of selectively been using and

like selectively been using anti Asian violence. As you know, they basically making the arguments of the import into anti ation violence is that, well, this only happens because people say many things about the CCP, and if no one didn't like the CCP, then there wouldn't be any violence, even though like anti asition violence here predates the existence of a communist party in China by centuries, like we we like the we we invaded, We invaded China, like

how many times? At least twice, maybe three I think at least twice and maybe three times like before there was a communist party. And so I don't know. I I feel trapped a lot between these dynamics in ways that are very frustrating. And yeah, I just I want to open the floor to talk about that. I guess I see it as like co optation partly um, but I guess I also see it as how power works.

Like I there's like this local paper and I was researching sort of the history of Chinese diaspora organizing locally, and there was a spat in the paper between two people who one of whom is from um a newer Hong Kong diaspora. There was like a whole spat um in the paper about his history. And there's the history of like those tensions are like written in the community itself, like it's it's it's not a new thing that people

argue about what happened on June four. It's not new that people are really mistrustful each other and that there are actual like government forces that infiltrate and and create a like basically deny other people's struggles, like um, when

that the that government is themselves perpetuating it. And I guess it just is really hard when fellow organizers that you otherwise really like I want to get along with our our like uncritical of the state that has oppressed your family, because you're just kind of like you're kind of like, wait, so are we have we had a conversation about this, Like we clearly haven't talked enough if this is what you believe in. And it's just a little bit hard because it's like community building is not

assuming that we're in solidarity. Community building is actually like doing that hard work like what is your community experiencing and what is my community experiencing? How are we being like weaponized against each other? Like yeah, how are these governments like manipulating like communities? But that's like really hard when trust has been probably broken like me, Yeah, I think you're so right that it's it's really about cooptation and a lot of it, Like what I've witnessed is

really so much about UM. And this is like like you're saying, Jaane, this is a much older dynamic than you know, just the past couple of years. Is like, uh, states being able to use this kind of home and desper of framework to um demand loyalty through like targeting

desperate people's guilt UM. And so there's so many like guilty desper people I know who are like you know, usually from usually from a class perspective, right because they had the their family had the resources to leave or uh they were not born in the home country or whatever because of their family background, that type of thing, and and they want to subsume that by taking this radical you know, anti U s anti Canada stands um, which is fine, Like obviously being anti US and anti

Canada is a good thing, but um, the thing that's really kind of frustrated me the most is seeing these kind of like radical folks in North America, especially queer folks, who are like they'll take the most reactionary positions against women and queer and you know LGBT folks in China,

for example, by supporting a state that is repressing them. Right, So it's it's such cognitive dissonance to me, Like, I don't understand why these folks can't see, um, that they're kind of perpetuating this violence in the service of this kind of overarching imperative of not ever seeing anything bad about China because it will help, it'll it'll bolster the US propaganda war machine, which is like, there's absolutely a way that I mean that absolutely happens if you do that,

uh un carefully, right, if you just kind of repeat um US media narratives and stuff like that. But I think there's absolutely a way to do both right and UM.

To me, the way to do that is to not um support the state discourses that demand loyalty from the dask brow, but to actually, you know, it's the grassroots thing, right, it's just kind of like we support career folks around the world who are struggling under oppression from their governments and that type of thing, UM, and being able to very carefully say that with nuance UM, and to be against both at the same time, for example, UM, well,

that's really really difficult right, Um, And people have very kind of vitriolic reactions when you try and do that. Um. As you know, she set up talk Chris. So I don't know this. This is still the contrum for me because I tend to take the more rigid stance against against these folks. But I know people who are very kind of they take a more compassionate stance, which is like these these are newly plus politicized youth. Um, they're

just coming to a lot of these politics and positions. UM. And you know, being anti us is better than not being anti us. Is It's what a lot of folks say. And you know, I agree to a certain extent. But then it's also like if they're being miseducated in these histories, UM, that's okay to a certain point when you're exploring and

discovering these things and becoming radicalized. But you know, like Jane said, there's also these kind of material, direct impacts that you have on people that you work with, that

you organize with, that that are your friends or loved ones. Um. That you know, that kind of explanation of like, oh, they're just learning is like it's insufficient in that kind of individual way because you're still hurting people and threatening people around you, right, So I think there has to be a balance and like being able to steer folks in into these like non Stalinist, non statist directions even while they're discovering. I hate how we're even having to

be like staring people into a non Salista perspective. I'm just like, I'm not a horny for stalin I like the thing that pisces me off about this, it's just like like they're not even Stalinist, Like this is the thing that's frustrating, Like if if, if if they were merely twentieth century Stalinist, we wouldn't be having this argument, because you know, twenty century Stalinism is like well yeah, okay,

like twenty centy Stalinist or anti market economy. And it's like, no, they've they've somehow found a way to take literally the worst aspects of Stalinism and then be like, okay, but what if what if? What if Stalinism but also capitalism good at the same time, And it's just like how

how did you do this? Like how how did you come up with an ideology that like I don't know, I mean, I think I think Also, I think that's been frustrating to me about this is like it's a way of sort of of of it becomes this way of channeling you know, you have the diaspert guilt in the one hand, that you have just random sort of like white leftists sort of white guilt, and it becomes this way of like channeling that into this sort of follow anti racism where you know, you get you get

people who are like actual professional like hacks, right, like Roger Day for example, being like, uh, you know, to doing things like wow, if you if you, if you could, if you criticize this time you state it all that sinophobia and like you're directly leading to people getting killed.

And it's like, no, that's not how this works. And there's this kind of it's it's it's it's this problem of they have this this fundamental inability to see Chinese people as people and not a sort of undifferentiated mass

that can be sort of rallied behind in ideology. And I don't know that's been I think weird to deal with because you know, like yeah, like you you're always just in in Chinese communities, like you're always you're just you're just gonna have like you know that there's going to be a few people who are just sort of like pro CCP right wingers. Right, that's just that's just

a sort of defailed political position. But there's there's this way in which you get this, you know, people adopting I mean just things that like if you said this about any like white American for example, if you if you argued that any like a white American making a thousand dollars a year wasn't in poverty, but like you just couldn't do it, you like, you know, it's it's it's literally impossible, like you you'd be laughing out of the room or you know, like you're you would you

would you would be like ratio out until the cows come home. But you can just but everyone and people just say this constantly, like this is just just a thing that was like well, if you look at poverty productions, like well Chinese China is eliminated absolute poverty. It's like, yeah, okay, they a thousand dollars a year is outside of this now.

And I think there's these ways in which it becomes hard to intervene in this stuff because like every every Asian person especifically, if the Chinese person just becomes a sort of token that like you know, you just sort of like throw at each other as just like oh, well yeah, here's the Chinese person who says that the CCP is good. It's like, well, here's another Chinese person

who says that it's bad. And it's like you never It's like on both sides, whether whether the process people realize it or not, it's their agencies being sort of stripped by them and they've they've been turned into this sort of instrumentalized like you know, in the in the same thing that they're also doing to us is that they're turning into sort of these instruments that you can use to like back your own sort brought in political agenda.

And this, I don't know, like this has gotten me to just I I just don't work with these people anymore. Like we tried it, it was a disaster. They screwed us over and so I don't know, but but but I think that's that's a that's a lonely stance in a lot of ways. Like you know, if if you take this kind of like hardline position, you're not gonna most people, even other people who don't support it probably won't follow you there. I don't know, it's weird because

I find a lot of organizing is really lonely. It's like it's not like like I want to boast around being like why aren't you all donating? But that's not that's also guilt, right, that's like projecting guilt onto other people, um, and that's not in effect the tool. And I think that like like so right and addressing both the white guilt but also the diaspora guilt, and also just how frustrating it is to organize against the state when it's like two people, like three people doing it in a

little group project for lack of a better word. But it's sort of like, how do we make this sustainable when it's so lonely? And how do we use the resources that are available to us two not replicate these systems yet again, And I guess when it comes to the left or progressive in Canada, it's like so frustrating because it's like there isn't actually a lot of community outreach to like racialized communities. There's no trens Nation. There's a lot of like nonprofit work that is frankly very

draining and co optive themselves. Um Like, it's it's a bunch of social service organizations in a trench code and a bunch of political organizations that don't work together or talk to each other in a trench code. And um so I understand why youth would join like leftist like radical organizing, but it it's just really heartbreaking when it's you're they end up reading in reading groups where they're reading historical or so called historical texts that erase your histories.

Like it's just such a like like reading is great, like political education is incredible. Um but I'm like it's hard not to grow resentful. So when the guy at the top is the university educated white dude and they're reading texts that literally erase your entire family, and it's um that like yeah, for me, it's like just really

personal that way. It's like there are people who are suffering in the present and you're reading a text by a white sociologist from the eighties, Like like not like I'm like it's not that like I I don't think that we should do that political education. It is just that like at a reading group, will you listen to

me when I call you out. Yeah, I definitely, you know, both of you saying that this work is really lonely, especially if you take if you stand up for yourself, for you you really kind of stand by your principles.

It's like that's so true. And um, you know, not to speak for everyone in laws on, but just my experience has been like you know, everyone just everyone hates us, like it's you know, we got hate from the right, we got hate from the left, um and from Hong Kong's asper from Hong Kong locals like it's it's just sometimes it's really hard to see, you know, because we're we're trying to stay true to our principles, but it's hard to see sometimes whether there's an impact or whether

we're just kind of like in a little echo chamber with twenty other people, you know what I mean. And um, it's hard to find that balance because I don't want to become more and more pragmatists where I'm just like, all right, well, you know, I'll work with these people, but I don't agree with them on these fundamental issues just on this one campaign or whatever happens to be.

I don't know. I know that's a part of like building power quote unquote like that a lot of uh certain, so those groups like to do or they're they're really

focused on that kind of thing. But I don't know if it's too much of an academic view to to be like, if you're going to do it that way, you're you're you're changing the outcome already, right, because you're not addressing these kind of fundamental issues from the start um And I think that view can sometimes lead to like a lot of non starters where you're just like things don't ever get off the ground because you insist on whatever fundamental principle that you that you want to

stick to, uh like anti nationalism for example. So yeah, just just kind of reiterating and commiserating with you all on the long laitness of that. People think that like not working in these sort of united different things is

this like sort of purityological position. But like you know, I mean so when when Occupy Ice was happening, right, Occupy Ice wound up being a kind of big friend thing and one of the groups involved with it was the was the Party for Socialism Liberation, who are this sort of like very much sort of like the basic the tanking cult, like they've There's not a lot of other horrible stuff that will talk about at some point, but I mean, one of the things that happens, you know,

Occupy ICE is that they you know, in Philadelphia, they destroy the encampment, like they convince enough people to just leave and do this completely pointless like march they can do a photo op of like people in front of the mayor's office, and they do it, and they camp

collapses because suddenly there's not enough people. You know, they don't even get a majority of the people, but it doesn't matter, because they pulled enough people out that you know that the camp couldn't be held against the cops anymore.

And I think that in some senses, this is kind of microcosm of what they what these people actually do, which is that you know, these people will never have any actual institutional power, right you know that they're they're they're never going to create their like salentist state or whatever, like they're never going to get this. They're they're never

gonna hold any power. What they can do is there are enough of them they can they can siphon off and people from actual leftist movements into this sort of just like white ring pro capitalist stuff that they can they can cause peoples to collapse, and I mean they've done this. They did a lot of this dream the uprising, and there is a lot of them, you know, intentionally leading people on pointless marches. There's a lot of competing

with the police and stuff like that. And I think that you know, it's it's it's like having seen that like multiple times, right I I you know, I you know, for me, like not working with him is an incredibly pragmatic position because we tried it and they blew it up.

But it's this problem especially you know, you have people who are radicalized in and it's like, well yeah, I mean, I don't know, like a lot of them never saw this stuff, right, don't know who these people are, and their first instroduction to the left is just like incredibly well financed like media blitz, and I think that has you know, I think that as consequences both for us sort of like people on the left doing like Chinese people on the left doing our own de asport organizing,

and it has consequences for the broader left, and like you you can see other sort of versions of this right where you know, you have a sort of right wing we've been infiltrating left to spaces and destroying them like they're they're like there there was thing dow Cream Resistance basically blew up a like an anti lithium protest of the U S by just like going there and

just hammering transphobia constantly. And so I don't know, I think there's there's this sort of dilemma because fundament like they will say a lot of the same things we do, but we have fundamentally different goals and that manifests itself at you know, on the level of of of organizing individual campaigns. But it's something that's really hard to get people to see. I think we've lost a lot of

movements because of it. Yeah, not to be you know, not to pile on the cynicism or anything, but I think I honestly do think, uh, you know, as all those new Cold War stuff ramps up, which is like completely independent of what a lot of folks, like grassroots folks are even thinking or advocating, it's all just kind of up to the the two uh you know, Chinese and US governments as they ramp up their own tensions.

I think it's really going to start like people are going to start these people who are um, you know, tankys or whatever, are going to start narrowing our choices further and further, right, like, you know, as soon it's going to be an athema to to not you know, take the anti us position. And that's it, you know what I mean. And I think that's really scary to me. I don't I last year, I thought there was still

room for intervention. But things are closing so quickly. And you know, my personal opinion is that a lot of these kind of bigger groups like No Cold War UM and others like Code Pink are are definitely being you know that they have much more funding than a lot

of other groups who are boarding more nuanced positions. And so like you're saying, it's just like these media blitz is that these shiny events and all those different things are very appealing to newly radical radicalized folks, right because they think that this this is where the power is and this is where we can actually make a difference. Um, And yeah, things to me, things look pretty bleak in the near future. I mean it just takes one Yeah, yeah,

I will see. I think I think they made one major city mistake, which is they tried to do the new the push the giant like new cold war war China thing at the exact moment of the US and Russia we're like heating up in actually, and this left them like kind of off balance because they've been for the last two years the whole things when the US is to accelerate tensence with China using any seltentions with China, and then it turns out that they're not doing that

and in fact, like they're gearing up for just more proxy word stuff with Russia, which is the thing they've

been doing for the past decade. So I think, like, I don't know, like I think they their problem essentially is that they run into reality and there are certain points at which, like you know, you you can lie a lot, right, but when when when the line that you're pushing is about what the mainstream media is going to say, and the mainstream if you just pivots and it's just completely about something that's entirely unrelated, Like I think, I think that hurts, and I think everything that The

other problem they have that that makes me hopeful is that the way there their base is getting split by just the anti vax grifters, because so many of their media people just you know, are are just are just full on grifters, and you know, and you're you're seeing splits right now and gray Zone about like basically between

pro and anti vad X factions. And I think that also will help us in the long run, because you know, say, say what you want about most leftists and even most tankies, like anti VAX is like a bit far even for them, and because you know, and the other things like the the it's it's hard to do anti VAX without beginning to take positions that just like it's been baked into just sort of anti Chinese racism in so many ways that like you can't really like you know, like you

can't simultaneously be pro incredibly CCP and then also be talking about how the US is trying to implement social credit, right, you know, these these are these these positions are just contradictory, and I think that's something that plays to our advantage and I think is weakening them to some extent because they've they tried to have their cake and eat it too, and now they're sort of, I don't know, they're there. Their conspiracy theory base is interfering with their like left

base in ways I think you're helpful for us. It's just so interesting how like the anti vax position is literally rooted in racism and ableism. Like, um, there's an article in The Conversation called the inherent racism of the anti vax movement that has like really good history around white settlers being afraid of African medicine, um um. And then there's also just the able ism of assuming that

your kid will get autism if you get vaccinated. That was that that's been a huge thing before the pandemic, and that was part of how this was effective in the first place. And um Yeah, and obviously the anti Chinese um like uh, anti Asian like scapegoating as well. But um, I guess that also ties into like just how broadly a blest the left is and how like disability justice is not something that a lot of people

know about um or care about. And it's yeah, I don't know, it's a huge problem for me as a disabled person. Yeah. I wanted to add really quickly too. I mean, I totally agree with you, and you know, I think one of the pernicious things that I've noticed though, is like these kind of big you know, quote unquote

anti imperialist accounts like on Instagram for example. Um, they take this anti vax position precisely by saying that it's anti racist to take that position, which is like, it sounds that sounds very kind intuitive, it's not that does

not reflect reality. But they will point to instances of you know, anti black us um US medicine for example, you know, like the Tusky experiments, and then say this is why we shouldn't trust the U. S. Government on any of this, right because look what they've done in the past, And it's like that logic makes a lot of sense in a lot of ways, right, but you know, they obviously ignore the impacts that you know, anti vax UH and COVID has had on you know, black and

other POSD populations. Right. So I think I don't know if it's exactly like, I don't know if it is appearing as hypocrisy to those people and then their audiences too, right, because I think they're able to spin it in this in this way. Yeah, but I think I think my my my argument here is I don't think those are the same. I don't like those are the same basis, Like I don't. I don't think that the majority of

the Tanky base are people who are anti factors. And you know that you can see a line of this right of of you know, like one of the big things that like they're they're they're obsessed with sort of like with the Cuban healthcare system, right and like Cuba's

Cuba's vaccines. You see this stuff from them a lot, and you know, and they also talk about like, yeah, like China's doing really well accolicating COVID, and I don't think those positions are like, I don't think those people are the same people who are also turning around and then talking about how like you know, talk doing the

Caki experiments the vaccines are actually like racism thing. I think I think there's some overlap between them, but but I don't think that those bases line up enough for it to you know, not have the effect of just kind of like tearing them apart. As their media people flip been too into one of the sort of camps.

And I think the other thing, like, you know, if if you look at what's happening with like, uh, like Max Bluemada right now, is that he's just like full on like like he's just full on touring with like just straight up right wingers to an extent that even like even people who being habituated by the sort of like Syria false flags stuff into sort of working with right wingers, like you can't look at these people that you know there's just these actually just like Republican operatives

and be like, well, okay, we're we're on the side of these people and also like support Cuba. I just I don't know, I I have I have some faith in these groups being separate and they're being there being a point of cognitive dissonance where the system break out. I guess I've seen people who have gotten out of tanky is M by having to interact with the actual CCP, and and that that that that gives me hope that there's there, there's there's a point of cognitive dissonance at

which it falls apart. And I don't know, maybe maybe I'm just sort of like hopy m in here, but I feel like it's so interesting how like there are a lot of people for whom politics is a parlor game and not their every day like lived experience. Like I would not be like like if I see my communities struggling. Um, and when people are dying or people are really like struggling with intragenerational trauma. I'm not gonna sit here and pontificate and theorize about like, um, things

that don't impact my communities. Um. And yeah, Like the angle about classes so important here because it's like a lot of people can't insulate themselves from like the broader communities around them. Like if you're going around saying untruths in the media and your communities are like, hey, that that makes no sense. Like, um, if you're actually connected to people like like you would hopefully, unless you're just a big asshole, um, you would hopefully take some accountability

for what you're saying. Um. And yeah, I just I just worry because this pandemic has also like really isolated people, like they people are not like talking to each other, and that makes it more easy for people to to be like, oh, I'm I'm just right, like this is my perspective, and I just yeah, I think about that the conditions in which we come to certain conclusions, like the conditions under which we become more vulnerable to CULTIU

type things or like oversimplified like understandings of history, because like, I feel like the the anti vax uh like not taking the vaccine being uh anti racist is a very like manipulative like argument because it ignores the fact that these experiments UM on black and Indigenous people in North America and beyond are like about neglect and are about um deliberately deliberate ongoing genocide and how like it's completely

understandable for for people to not trust the government. But but like when the vaccine is actually a tool of protecting people, Like, there's not a lot of like campaigns other than people who are uh rooted and disability justice saying hey, vaccines are like here to protect us, and how can we make how can we make like a like, how can we resist the medical industrial complex enough such that we can make people feel safer taking them at vaccine?

How can we bring people in as opposed to fearmongering, because I think that fear is so powerful. It's like, once you're afraid, you're you're not gonna you're not gonna even look into the research, right, So I don't know. For me, I just think of all of this as like manipulation and human psychology on a on a like broad social basis because it's like the stage is a big cult and these little groups are little cults. Yeah, do do you have any other things you want to

say before we head out? Happy new here. Yeah, you're the Tiger. I'm looking forward to retweeting art like actually Fuary not January one. Yeah, yeah we should, I think my okay okayo closing less depressing question. Yeah, what what do you think is the etiquette on retweeting? I like, yea, every retweeting like you're the Tiger art before the actual before like Lunar New Year's. I've been torn on it because I just I like the art, but also I'm like,

it's not the years yet. I haven't seen any I guess, so I guess I'm lucky. I have been either guilty or just not guilty, depending on how you see it. Like I have retweeted all of the Tiger art on January first because I did not care. I wanted to

see the tigers um. But I hope that I see more tigers like in the coming days, because if the Tigers aren't coming, or if we aren't retweeting it, that that is an issue, Like there need to be like a second like a like a like a like like a like a second wave of the tiger are no pressure to all of the artists. Well, alright, So if if people want to find you or work that you have that you want people to find where, where where

can they do that? Or if you also do not want them to find you, that is completely also valid. The Internet is terrible and a mistake. Yeah, I mostly and do not perceive me mode um completely valid. If you want to check out allow song stuff feel Free, a low song collective dot com. It's good work. My social media is um pepakal poetry um on Instagram. I uh um. I have this graphic that I've turned into a sticker and it's raises funds for families who were

affected by the fires and floods. Um. It's a sticker that says immunocompromised people are worth protecting and it went viral multiple times. So I guess I cannot help but be perceived objections. So yeah, I don't know. Yeah I'll poetry. Yeah, this this is what happens when you create things that are both incredibly politically powerful and also gorgeous. So yeah, be be be cursed with the reward for good work. Which is also being perceived. Yeah, yeah, well you can.

You can find you can find us at happened here pod on Twitter, Instagram, there's the cool zone. You can find it. Yeah, go go, go, go retweet Tiger Art I go throw a brick at your sheriff non actionable and yeah, destroy the American and Chinese States. Happy two years? Oh boy, prop. You know what's fun is is live shows,

live podcast shows. Live podcasts are incredible. You know what isn't incredible is the plague, which is why we've decided to find a way to give you all a live show that won't spread the plague, a virtual live show. We had to pivot, and one can say you could really watch it from anywhere. You could watch it from anywhere. You could watch it. If you're on the I S S in space right now, you could watch it, if you're if you're in a trench in in eastern Ukraine,

you could watch it. Uh, if you're driving and and don't care about paying attention to the road, you could watch it. All of these are options. With a Verse totally eliminated the problems of living in a three dimensional plane. We have. It's it's groundbreaking. You could call it the metaverse. Anyway, It's going to be February at six pm PST. Prop

is going to be the guest. Sophie's gonna be there too, and you can buy tickets at moment house dot com slash behind the Bastards, slash behind the Bastards, moment house dot com slash behind the Bastards watch it later. You don't have to watch it. It's so bad, you guys, we gotta do this. What are you talking about? It was good. I thought everybody was going to be on board with this ship. We're all just saying the same ship over each other, all at once. That's that's so

that they notice it. It's called chemistry. This was really bad. Adoption of teens from foster care is a topic not enough people know about, and we're here to change that. I'm April Denuity, host of the new podcast Navigating Adoption presented by adopt us Kids. Each episode brings you compelling, real life adoption stories told by the families that lived them,

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hosts are Christopher and Garrison and our producers Sophie. How's everybody doing today? Great? How every How does everybody feel about war? Oh? Yeah? Now, if you were to get us, based on your knowledge of history, what generation of war we're in right now? What would you what? What would y'all guess? I feel like war isn't it's it's it's newer in relation to like human beings, Like the idea

of war. I'm guessing like there's been like battles, but like the idea of like war, I feel like isn't super old compared to how long there's been humans walking around.

So I don't know, this is maybe I mean, I know the answer, but like it's it's like like that's that's definitely we definitely passed through like at least a couple of stages and at least a couple Chris, like gotta be at least twelve Twelvest, you're way ahead of William s Lynd, who spoilers is the guy who came up with the concept of fourth generation war, which is

what this episode is about. Right. One of the things when we talk about things falling apart is um the unsettling growth of a number of different hybrid conflicts, Ukraine being the most like blatant modern example, Syria being the deadliest example in our lifetimes. But like these weird hybrid conflicts that are a mix of shit happening on the Internet and like disinformation going out all over the world.

You could even think to like what was happening in Bolivia a year or so back, and like all those weird accounts that were like based around Langley, Virginia claiming

to support the military coup. And you can look at like from the same this disinformation brought out by like the Russian state that is usually as part of like a conflict either you know, they have disinfo operations and Syria disinfo operations around the conflict, and you crane that are kind of designed to muddy the issues and to detract international support and also to like drum up support within for like in the in the case of Ukraine, you had like this media blitz against the legitimacy of

the Ukrainian state in favor of like a more UH like traditionally Russian um UH style of government in the East, and like that led to this breakaway republic that was supported by the Russian government. And like so these are like hybrid conflicts is kind of how these are referred to. And there was a guy named William S. Lynd who in nineteen eighty nine wrote a book with a couple of US military analysts. Like he was an analyst for

the military. He was not serving in the military. The other guys he wrote this this thing with we're serving at the time, and they wrote this this book kind of trying to be basically what Lynde was doing. He was very influenced by our loss in Vietnam when I say, are here, like the loss of the American state in Vietnam, and he was trying to determine, like number one, kind of like find a way to codify and explain the

changes that were happening to warfare in this period. Was also influenced about what was happening in Afghanistan with the Russians were experiencing UM and find a way to like move forward and allow the United States to win wars again, right, Like that was William S. Lynn's goal UM, And so he came up with this concept of four or he and some other guys come up with what they called fourth generation warfare UM and first generation warfare is like

Napoleonic Arab warfare. So, like as Garrison was saying, you may note that he kind of starts his that it's pretty late. That's pretty late we had wars before. Yeah, that's there's a lot of stuff that leads up to like, yeah, if I was gonna try to categorize different types of

warfare that would not be the one I start with. Well, and like the reality, of course is we'll talk about like when you start looking at different kinds of warfares, there's wars that look remarkably like the ship going on in Afghanistan and Ukraine that are occurring like several thousand years ago, um, like something like like in the same places.

To like it's just like if you wanted to if you wanted to talk about like kind of the modern style of wars that we saw that we've seen really in the last like hundred and fifty years, they're not all that dissimilar in a lot of ways from like the kind of conflicts you saw between Rome and Carthage um, which are these really like big nation states style conflicts

and and have a lot of similarities. But but William S. Lynn described the first generation of warfare is beginning after the Peace of Westphalia in sixty eight that ended the Thirty Years War um. And it's the kind of warfare where you have these like big tightly ordered groups of men marching towards each other and like firing very inaccurate

weapons and mass together. Right. Uh, this is ended by the era of the machine gun and the semi automatic rifle UM or on the bolt reaction rifle, I should say, and that leads us to second generation warfare, which is linear fire and movement with heavy reliance on indirect fires. That's still huge groups of guys charging, but they're not marching in close order, they're not like firing in volleys um, and they're supported by heavy artillery like World War one

kind of ship right um. Really we start to see this in eighteen seventy and then World War One is kind of the height of this kind of warfare, and over the course of World War One we more merge and again this is william S Lends way, we emerge from second generation to third generation warfare, which is where you've got infiltration tactics to bypass enemy defensive lines and collapse at which is kind of the Germans and their altrogs tactic and stormtrooper tactics are really kind of pioneering

that you've got the idea of defense in depth um. And so this need to bypass the enemy and like this leads to blitzkrieg and leads to all sorts of ship um and then that kind of starts to collapse and Len's estimation around Vietnam, and you get what's called fourth generation warfare. Fourth generation. I'm actually just going to read a quote from a military history wiki that I thought had a pretty good description of all of this.

Fourth generation warfare is normally characterized by a violent non state actor fighting a state. This fighting can be physically done, such as by modern examples Hezblah or the liberation Tigers of Tamil alam Um. In this realm, the v n essay, these violent nonstate actors use all three levels of fourth generation warfare. These are the physical actual combat, which is considered the least important, mental the will to fight, belief

in victory, etcetera. And the moral, which is the most important. LYND says and includes cultural norms, etcetera. Um, So obviously I think that this is kind of nonsense. There's a lot of people, So there's a lot of folks, the people who buy into this, and it's very popular on the right. Well, we'll look at like what's happening in Ukraine.

It's a perfect example of fourth generation warfare because you have Russia flooding the zone using spot nick and a bunch of other kind of media organizations to drum up um discord and like anger between East and West in Ukraine, uh and support for potential Russian action at the same time as you have them backing this dictator um and then you have like the West sort of supporting the people protesting against those dictators and like so you've got

like this this digital conflict, this information conflict that eventually

leads to fighting on the ground. One of the areas in which I think Lynda is really off is talking about like the physical as the least important, especially if you're going to consider Ukraine an example of fourth generation warfare, because if the Russian military had not intervened, there would not still be a conflict in Ukraine, the separatists would not still hold land, and in fact, the Separatis were on the edge of getting completely wiped out by the

Ukrainian military because they were a bunch of nonstate actors with minimal support and minimal weaponry before the Russians moved in brigades of active duty combat troops and armor um including like gigantic fucking missile launchers which they used to shoot down that Malaysian airlines flight. Like that. It's it's just not I I don't think that that what what Linda is saying is very um very well describes what's

actually going on in the world. But it is important to understand the concept of fourth generation warfare and fifth generation warfare, which we'll talk about in a bit um, because it is so useful in the way in which particularly guys like Steve bannon Um conceive of conflict because they you will hear the term fourth generation warfare constantly, and it's also something that has used a lot within

our military establishment. Now a lot of people hate it, and within you can find a lot of papers buy dudes writing like analysts who are working for the Defense Department for the army actively like shipping on Lynd and talking about how he's at best is kind of like reinvented ideas that existed in warfare for thousands of years, and he's kind of summarized things in a way that that is needlessly flattening, and like some people will say, you basically like ripped up like added the Internet to

Klauschwitz uh and pretended that you'd invented a new style of conor that you defined a new style of conflict. Anyway, that's like an introduction to the idea of fourth generation warfare right. And there's a lot of things that he gets again like if you're if you're a history a military history wong, which Lynde pretends to be a lot of ship that he gets wrong. Um. So one of the things that he says, like one of his famous

phrases that every military eventually craps in its own mess kit. Um, the idea that like every military that that is great eventually like has a gigantic funk up because they get too used to doing the same thing, which is true um. And he describes it as like um. The Prussians did in eighteen oh six, after which they designed and put into service a much more improved model mesh kit mess

kit through the Sharnhorst military reforms. The French did it in eighteen seventy, after which they took down from the shelf and old model mess kett the mass draft Army of the First Republic and put it back into service. The Japanese did it in ninety five, after which they threw their mesket away swearing they would never eat again. And we did it in Korea in Vietnam. And now when four new wars so far we've only we've had the only military that's just kept on eating. And that's

a really dumb statement. That's all really historically and accurate. So, for example, it's true that like the Prussians had a great military which then got its butt kicked by Napoleon and they had to completely redesign it, and by the time eighteen seventy came around, they were extremely dominant on the battlefield against the French. Number One, he's crediting the military reforms of like tactics and strategy and ignoring things like Krupp inventing it an entirely new kind of cannon

that was utterly dominant on the battlefield. Um. He's also ignoring the fact that this Prussian army. Um. He's saying, like the US is the only army that does the same thing over and over again and fails and keeps on eating. Well, the Prussian Army is the army the Germans took into battle in World War One and two,

and spoilers, they didn't learn enough from either of those wars. Um. He also talks about how like the French had their you know, crapping in the mess hit moment in eighteen seventy after the Franco Prussian War, and they changed their army and it was much better. Like, well, they didn't win World War One, like they were on the side that one, but if it had been them against Germany, they would have gotten fucking steamrolled. Like it was not going well for them for quite a while, and they

lost a whole generation of young men. So maybe and and again this is like what he's saying is basically we because we're losing so constantly. The reason that we're losing is not because we are picking bad conflicts. It's not because we're picking to engage in conflicts when we shouldn't at all be engaging in conflicts. It's not because we use military force in like a fundamentally venal and corrupt way in order to benefit a small cabal of

military industrial corporations. It's because we we don't have good battle doctrine, and that's why we're not winning in these conflicts, which ignores everything about the reality of the conflicts that like he's talking about, Like the problem is not a lack of combat dominance, which is is what you were

seeing with like the Prussians fighting Napoleon. It's what you were seeing with the French fighting the Germans in eighteen seventy, right, Like in those cases, the Prussians had a massive failure of combat dominance against the French, and the French had a massive failure in combat against the Germans. Their doctrine was just worse. Um, US soldiers are great at getting into gunfights and great at winning gun fights. The problem

is not a lack of combat ability. The problem is that there's no way to win the conflicts that we're getting into. They are unwinnable wars that were never things that like, there no amount of change in doctrine would have made Afghanistan a success because it was a stupid are Like it's like if if that were true, like

coin would have worked. And yeah, no, like absolutely yeah yeah, just complete total and utter failure, like enormous numbers of people dead, enormous numbers of like people traumatized for generations, and the U S still just lost both wars. Yeah, and and and and if you really dig into Lynd and others like him, what they're actually saying when they say that, like we need to reform like the way the military works with new battle doctors. We need to

be killing even more people. We just didn't kill enough in Vietnam, like the five million we bombed or so that wasn't enough people like that. That's the reform that he's really talking about. Um, is Lynd one of those people who like rants about the like the the the al Salvadorian option. UM. I'm sure he does. I don't know exactly what he said about al Salvador. He's a fascinating kind of fascist. Um. He is absolutely a fascist. He was the director of the Center for Cultural Conservatism

at the re Congress Foundation. UM. He wrote a or he helped to popularize a declaration of Cultural Independence by Cultural Conservatives, UM, which is like these there's a lot of the seeds of the ship that we're seeing today, right that like American culture institutions are being collapsed because of like liberal decadence and conservatives. Cultural conservatives should separate themselves and like set up parallel institutions where Bannon comes in.

And that's where Bannon comes in. That where like fucking Andrew Torba and gab come and they all advocate this ship. Yeah, because they're all they all adhere to that kind of uh. Yeah, like politics has culture and there's downstream. Yeah, and there's some weird differences with Lynd, Like he's a huge mass transit and urban rail advocate, which I guess I agree with him every once in a while, a bad person does have a good opinion. He loves he loves him

some fucking city trains and stuff. Um, but he's also he was a major factor. He was one of the earliest, like prominent conservatives who was like yelling about cultural Marxism and kind of the modern political period. I mean that makes sense because he was really into it. Sounds like he's real into meta politics. So yeah, that's in Metapolis. Yeah, So, like all of this stuff makes a whole lot of sense if you're yeah, if you're if you know what,

if you know what meta politics are. It's also kind of explains how he developed the different generations of warfare

using it through a framework of metal politics. Actually really makes that fit if you believe, like Breitbart famously stated that like politics is downstream from culture, and if you also believe what Claus I think it was class Wits that said that like war is politics by other means than like you can make cultural can cause wars, and like, yeah, like that's a lot like kind of I think the thought process behind Yeah, because this this really defines what

he means by fourth generation warfare of war being handed out specifically by the culture instead of having it be abstracted to be like people marching towards each other with guns because he's, he's, he's, he's putting the he's putting the culture kind of back into it. Yeah, and he and he's and he's in. And obviously culture was never not a factor, and of course not like every single war has, but a major factor, like all of this

ship he talks about is being characters to go. Fourth generation warfare has been happening in one way or another for thousands of years, but it's it's not that these

things are done in like temporal succession. It's like because because like a lot of the stuff that makes up fourth generation warfare, like the more like guerrilla warfare aspects, come way before people with guns marching towards the other Africans doing that to Alexander the Goddamn Group for the Birth of Christ, A lot of a lot of this fourth gend stuff is actually like kind of more similar to what original warfare probably would have been, Like Yeah,

which I think yeah. I think to to his credit, I think he does actually recognize that at some point in his writing now and and and the thing about this is, well, we can pick at it, and I think there's a lot that's ridiculous in his attitude. It's it's close enough to the way that reality works that if you're going, if you're thinking about conflict in this framework, you can be very successful. It's not like an It's inaccurate in some ways because he's he is wrongly describing

why certain things work. I think is a lot of what he's doing. And he's wrong about winning wars. I'll say that, um, if if the American military were to make the fucking lend the Secretary of Defense and give him total power, like he would keep on losing wars as hard as we've been losing wars for everyone listening to this as lifetime. Um. But in a cultural sense, the kind of culture jamming, which is a term we'll

talk about more in the future. And but the kind of like the propaganda arms and stuff in order to the the the the media warfare in order to either insight or justify real conflict or or and this is one of the areas in which they have been really effective to alter the dimension, to alter how internationally a

conflict has responded to. So one of the big successes of people like this has been effectively eliminating any kind of left wing support for liberatory movements in the Middle East, UM, for liberatory movements or for like just like what's happening in Ukraine. It's kind of like reflexive. Well, if there's uh, if there's a movement for liberation among the people of a country, it's probably the c I a like like

carrying out some sort of op um. That's Lynda and his people UM and people influenced by him have been a big part of pushing that. UM. It's why Steve Bannon is in and is so friendly with like some guys on like chunks that they call themselves the left and whatnot. It's because, um, there's there's a lot of uh, there's a lot of ties there, and that is an area in which they've been successful because international support really matters. UM,

you know, it's it's it's uh. And I think like the death of internationalism is one of the bigger successes that like these these thinkers have kind of had. But yeah, I don't know. That's that's that's that's a chunk of what I had to say. You guys want to know more about william S Lynd because he's I certainly want to learn more about Williams. William S Lynd cultural conservative, right big on the traditional Christian values of America. You want to guess who he considers his ideal leader? Uh

jfk No, the House of Hogan's all learned. He's a

Prussian monarchist. Wait oh yeah, I mean politics. He's certainly into hegel and he thinks that the Prussian the Prussian monarchy was the best government there ever was and was like unfairly crushed by the rest of the world, and like should have won World War One and everything would like he's he's and so he's he's very much like a conservative monarchist um and a weird kind because like, my god, dude, if you're looking at like monarchs who were like the Hogans all learn has had like in

the modern era, like the first Kaiser Wilhelm was broadly competent, but like it went to ship as soon as a help in the second and he blames all of World War One on the fucking tsars like it's it's very silly, like his ideas of history are like very stupid. I have an incredibly silly theory of history based on Hagel, which is that, like every everything Hagel. Briefly, for the listeners I know, do not, this is this is this is this is the thing. Okay, okay, this this is

this is. This is my crank theory of history based on Hagel, which is that every about forty years someone attempts to apply Hagel, someone like takes charge of an incredibly large state and tries to use Hagel to run it, and every single time they don't understand the dialectic and it doesn't work. So this, for example, like if if you can take this as a very granul level, right you have Mao Mao has no idea what a dialectic is.

You can you can read Mao's work. He has no clue, Like he just doesn't he like, he doesn't he doesn't get it. He thinks of a dialectic is when one person with a bat hits the other hits the other side, and then when you destroy the other side, the dialectic is resolved. Right that that's not what it is, right Maw like, because of this, the entire Chinese revolution just implodes, everyone dies, it returns to capitalism. Is a complete failure, right, you know. And and like a lot of the Nazis

are very much into Hagel. They have again incredibly similar failures. The other group people like Lynda think is part of this is that all of the people who planned the Iraq War were like enormous Regelian's right, but they've gotten to Hagel through this weird like they they've been doing this, they've been doing these kind of insurgency stuff and so

but they're kind of insurgeny stuff. Was they read Mao and you know, so that they're so they're they're they're reading Hagel, but then they're also reading Hagel through Mao, and Mao doesn't understand what's going on either, And so when they try to apply the Hegelian dialectic and they're like, Okay, well, the end of the end of the end of history, the end of the Hegelian dialectic is the United States. We're just going to impose this on a rock and

it catastrophic failure. So the war listening is do not attempt to apply Hagel, you will completely annihilate your entire political movements, like every every everything, everything you love and dream of everything, like every ideology you've ever had. Uh, it will, it will crumble beneath you. And yeah, you will watch your cities, and you watch your cities and Armi's burn. That's that's fine because the last time my resistance movement, we're just going to be postcanty and object

oriented on ontologist guys. Throw a bunch of names, and I'm gonna get like of people are just why the funk am I hearing about these dead people? The thing I actually wanted to to bring up on this is like how fourth and fifth gen are the idea of the fourth and fifth gen get applied onto like more

insurrection based um like revolts or groups. Right, you can see like groups like the Earth Liberation Fund and Animal Liberation Front kind of pick and shoes elements of the fourth and fifth generation were fair to kind of to see how their groups formed or were operated um. And even you could argue that like Ted Kazinski was like a fifth fifth generation warfare because he was completely autonomous

and the actions. Let's let's introduce the idea of fifth generation because we just talked about fourth generation warfare, which was Lynn's idea. Fifth generation warfare is a concept that

has come up I believe Daniel Abbott is his name. UM, And the idea was that like it's a new type of warfare that like characterizes a lot of conflicts in the modern era where almost everything is non kinetic um, but it is still military action UM, so military social engineering, misinformation sorry, or attacks not just like decentralized, but like states actually using UM organized and often fighting non state

actors who are using kind of the thing. Yeah, and this and a lot of this would involve artificial intelligence, fully autonomous systems systems not just botan nets, but like algorithms that can like handle a lot of the quote unquote fighting. UM. William S Lynd hates the idea of fourth generation, fifth generation warfare because he's a narcissist and he doesn't like anyone using the idea that sound every

head of the dialectic. It keeps going. So what I was, what I was thinking, is like, is like a lot of you can apply fis generation warfare to like these types of groups who are mostly like they do some they do some fourth gent tactics in terms of like terrorism, right, Like they try to make political statements through terrorism and have terrorism an influential thing, but they're demands like you rarely like fifth generation stuff has not been around a

long enough and no one's really been super successful at it in the past enough time for us like to like recognize that, right, because you can look at a lot of a lot of like an insurrectionary type stuff around like the Again, I'm just gonna use the Earth Liberation Front as an example of like a group that attempted kind of these types of tactics, um and they may have succeeded in the physical sense, but they did

not succeed in like the cultural sense. Really, um, So trying to like look at these types of things and how they relate to like specific that you know, if you're gonna use like the take Kazinski example, same thing, except he's not a group. He's just one person, which is kind of more of a fifth gen thinks he's like fully autonomous, whereas I think, um, you know, stuff like the e l F tried to have that kind of militant group dynamic that is more similar to fourth

generation warfare. So it's like this picking and choosing of like trying to trying to do physical action than trying to do cultural action. And it's it's not like the things that have succeeded. Let's take for instance, some the defend the Cascadian forest thing who just got just got um this is the specific action they were working on

to protect a specific chunk of the forest. Uh. The judge of approved their approved their motion because they were they actually were successful because they did not form this militant thing right now, they were just doing the cultural and it actually really succeeded um as opposed to just you know, burning down buildings and stuff to try to

get your action forward. So just trying to look at like examples of when when like the goal is kind of the same and certain times succeeds, certain certain types don't. How that might influence like organizing and how to selectively use like insurrection, but have it not be like a default mode for like always your group is better if

it's insurrectorary. M Yeah, And I one of the things that does characterize that I think is useful if we're because again I have my criticisms of the value of any of these like phrases as kind of discrete concepts. But one of the things that I think is useful about the concept of fifth generation warfare that does talk about something that is legitimately new to conflict that has not really existed before before the Internet is omnipresence UM.

That that the conflicts are not limited in geographical space or in time, and in fact is like a constant factor all around you at all times because of the way the information sphere kind of actually functions. UM. You know, you can look at kind of like the mix of street fight and information warfare, doxing and whatnot between fascists and anti fascists for the last few years. It's omnipresent.

It's always going on UM, and the battle space is kind of potentially everywhere, even though it's fairly rarely kinetic or physical UM. And I do think that that's an area in which, um, it is really worth having a new term and kind of defining a new term, because that's one of the few things I think that has legitimately changed. The Internet has made all of this stuff that's been happening for thousands of years faster UM. But the thing that it's really created that was not present before?

Is this the this omnipresence um. So I do think that that's really useful when we like, I would like to how conflict is different. I would like to kind of like think about like January six, within these frameworks, right of how of how disinformation and information was used relatively successfully to get a lot of people to actually move towards the more um you know, kind of backed by half the state, backed you know, not backed by

well the larger majority. And yeah, how like it's a it's like a synthesis of the fourth generation of fifth generous ideas, which is why you know, there's a lot of overlap with these terms specifically um, but seeing how like one leads to another and it's not they're not necessarily alusion exclusionary. Yeah, I guess like the result is whether they win or lose. Right, that's that's like that that's what makes it a war? Is is the is

the is like you decide afterwards based on the result. Yeah, I mean it kind of Yeah, that's certainly like how more modern wars happened, Like with Afghanistan, it wasn't so much like a clear like World War One. There's an armistice and like negotiated end of the war and at a certain date at all ends. It was a lot we haven't done that since we haven't done that for the state, Like you know, I've never known the States to do that for a month, because if you don't

do that, you don't have to admit you lost. Yeah, exactly right. If you just kind of like leave and ship gets real fucked up. Um, you can just be like for one thing, you can say like if we'd stayed and spend more money on that, or we could have we could have pulled it out, um, which is one of my Like there's a lot of great criticisms of how the Biden administration handled things in Afghanistan last year, a thousand of them. But at the end of the day, it's like it was never going to be good, Like

it was always it was this horrible war. We were killing way too many people. Um, we weren't achieving anything. And that fact was made really clear by the fact that as soon as we pulled out our guns, Um, everything collapsed. And that was always going to happen. And you can needle around the edges of how we could have you know, better taken care of people who we had made promises to or whatever. At the end of the day, it was always going to be fucked because

it was a thing we never should have done. And that's that. Like this idea that Lynde has it like, no, if we fix our doctrine, we have better tactical doctrine, we have better like we have that. One of his big ideas is UM. He came up with this concept called movement warfare that's been hugely influential in the way

the Marine Corps functions UM. And the idea behind movement warfare is like you should always have a bias towards action, and Lynda is very consciously UM trying to make this basically the evolution of a German tactic called ALP Drugs tact Tea, which is like individual unit tactics basically. So it's like midway through World War One, the Germans start to realize, like, all these mass wave human charges aren't working great UM, and we should probably like figure out

a way to get around these defenses. So they start training what are kind of the prototype of special forces, These like stormtroopers whose job is to like sneak in and not be seen and jump into the trenches and like you know, fucking axes and clubs and automatic handguns and um, fight in a way that like soldiers had not really fought in a long time. A lot of it was like melee was this really and there were

a lot of technical things had to get around. Barbed wire had to not be seen, how to like deal with machine gun nests, um. And one of the keys to it was like the German started to retrain their soldiers to were like you have to have like these individual units of five and ten men have to have like total autonomy. And then unit commanders have to have autonomy and they need to be will able to like will tell them we need you to be in this

this place at this point in time. But it's up to you to figure out how to do that because if you're if you've got this one guy who's three miles back giving the commands, everyone's just gonna get mowed down by machine gun fire. Needs to be more nimble, um.

And that's part of why in World War One, in in World War two, because the rest of the people fighting the Germans, like even the US, had not caught up to this kind of battle doctrine by the time World War Two was over, UM to the extent that the Germans had, And it's part of why there's such a lopsided casualty ratio in favor of the Germans in that war is they had what is very close to because all modern combat tactics are based on what the Germans started doing at the end of World War one

UM and had really like nailed down to a science in World War two UM. And Lynda is saying that, like we need to extend that and like that's the thing we've gotten too far away from and we need to have. You need to have like this bias towards movement and this the like officers need to be super aggressive and like always pursuing these kind of kinetic options. And again, as the Marine Corps battle record will show, this is very effective when you were getting into gunfights.

But when was the last time the Marine Corps was on the side of a winning war. Like again, it doesn't we can all needle about how to make our troops better at like killing people, but at the end of the day, we're losing wars because we're getting into wars that are not winnable, and that's not something you're going to fix with battle doctrine and doesn't understand that

because he's a fascist. And I think it's just like this, this is the real like weakness of their politics, which is that was like yeah, well, like it's it's they're

they're they're trying. It's like they can't tell the difference between war and like they don't think there's a difference between war and politics, right, and that means that they think that there's a military solution to every political problem and it's like, no, there's not, and like this is this is how this is why is how they keep destroying themselves, right, is that they you know, like like

this is what happened to the neo cons. I mean the neo cons are sort of held on in this kind of rump shell, but it's like neo conservatism and how they're just project Yeah. But but it's like you know, like they don't they don't have like even the people who used to be their base, like aren't there base anymore?

Like those those people are all moving yeah yeah yeah, And it's it's it's like maybe they could have maintained it if they hadn't just like literally blown it apart, like trying to conquer a rock, and it's like they all do this. They all eventually are like, well, okay, well we'll find a military solution to this, and it blows up in their face because it turns out that, no,

you can't actually do this. I mean, I think all the syndicates a general progression into the more metapolitics idea and cultures politics ideas that we're trying to solve all these political problems, like at least like locally within us, you know, we're trying to be trying to do them culturally and choosing them in selectively in other countries, right because the more kind of the the idea of like let's just keep entering wars, which we're also doing at

the same time, only very very like like very specific regions. But I mean the trend of like first, you know, like Trump's not necessarily and like Trump's not really can Aniogon He preferred the cultural jamming like that was was his preferred method, and I got him relatively far in four years. And there there's an argument that lynd is a big person who that he learned a lot from Lynda, even though I don't think he ever read his books. All the people he surrounded him with, where fans of Lend.

There's a picture of Trump and Lend together and like a copy of or at least Trump together with a copy of his book, um, which is titled, uh the Next Conservatism UM. And I'm gonna read a quote at this point from The American Conservative, which Lynde has written for, that describes this book because it's it's uh useful. Um The Next Conservatism offers a comprehensive agenda of what Lyndon way Rich, who's his co author on this, call a

cultural called cultural conservatism. While the book aims higher than mere policy, the specifics mentioned are Trumpian reductions in legal and illegal immigration in America, first trade policy, and robust investments and domestic infrastructure, particularly street cars and trains in a less Trumpi in Vain. It also promotes homeschooling and incorporates some ideas of from the New Urbanism as part

of a broader program called Retrocal Chure. Of its connection with Trump, lynd says the book runs parallel to what he has been saying, but he doubts the billionaire's familiarity with its more philosophical ideas. Now here's the part that is going to be really unsettling. And this, I think is what lynd may actually be going for, rather than any kind of reform in the military to improve its

ability to win foreign wars. Quote. In nineteen four, an article appeared in the Marine Corps Gazette by Lynde and two of the authors of the nineteen piece, where he introduced the concept of fourth generation warfare. It ended on a dire note. The point is not merely that America's armed forces will find themselves facing non nation state conflicts and forces overseas. The point is that the same conflicts are coming here. The next real war we fight is

likely to be on American soil. So that's what's going on here. Like, and that's the thing where biased towards action and increased killing power. If all you're really trying to do is murder everyone who disagrees with you using the military very quickly, well that might work for you. People should know about this. He has a fucking fiction book called Victoria, which actually if you go to like TV tropes, um, the there's a TV It's not just

TV tropes anymore. Like there's a trope page from my book After the Revolution and it's directly compared to Victoria, as like they're the opposites of each other because Victoria is like a book about a civil war in the US that these like weird fascist uh like monarchists win

and like it's, uh, it's pretty fucked up. Like the problem is that like like like all of these like the Northwest is controlled by like environmentalists like leaders who get like eaten by these animals like wolves that they reintroduced to the to the society, and like California is so feminist that it's illegal to have sex and make babies, um. And the South fails because it's it's too multicultural um.

And yeah, like it's it's all. So the person who wins the war is like the governor of Maine who's a retro culture practitioner um and considers himself a subject of the Kaiser. I maybe getting a couple of details wrong, but not that part. I know. But it's a fucking nuts nuts So I've only read like little bits of it.

Maybe one day I'll get through the whole thing. But that's that's the thing with all with all of these like cultural gamers, like they try to put on like war aesthetics, but all of them are the nerdiest fuckers he'll ever. He's so stupid, and I like all these guys are so they're so nerdy, all of them. Yeah, and like lynd, everything about him makes sense when you understand that his primary guiding directive is anger over the

fact that there's no longer a kaiser Um. He's a little but also like again, he was not lying about there's a picture of like Trump of this fucking book. He's not lying that. Like fucking everybody who was like pilled in that White House knew about Lynn's ideas and have been He's been hugely influential, and not just among like the American right. His books have been found in

like al Qaeda hideouts and ship Like. He makes sense though that that that that like all of all of that really tracks is because yeah, like the the barrier between like terrorist action as a part of fourth generation and in some ways fifth generation warfare and then the type of like culture jamming, those things go hand in hand. Like that is like that is the goal of it

is to make it work that way. So that doesn't surprise me that those types of terrorist groups would be reading his books for advice so or for like to

like figure out how the other side thinks. Yeah, all right, well that's probably enough talking about william S lind for today and cultural and the fourth generation, we'll talk There's a lot to dig into about how these ideas have influenced chunks of the right, how they're currently still being used for like these omnipresent conflicts that are going on right now. And again I do think particularly the idea of omnipresence is really useful for understanding modern conflict. I

would I would go as far as to say, like crucial. Um, so this is necessary background information to people to have, for people to have for like some of the other ship. We're going to be continuing to talk in this about in this series as we you know, as we talk more about kind of kinetic conflicts or at least building towards kinetic conflicts. Um. But yeah, I think this is this is a useful kind of grounding. And now I'm going to send Chris and Garrison off to write an

episode explaining who hegel is and everything he believed. I Yeah, it's gonna be great. You're gonna you're gonna hear you you will watch me go mad in real time. It's gonna be great. Yeah. The other option is I can just read the Wikipedia page for Hegel with like a really offensive German accent. That that's better than that. Actually better. I'm gonna go to I will. I promise you one thing, which is that I will wind up either Russian or Australian by the end. I can't stop that drift when

I whenever I start doing. You know, I am a good chairman. Y'ah. My name is Mr Hegel, the absolute on media. We're gonna stop that right now. I probably should look for your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure in pebbles, They see a windy path that could lead to adventure, and they see you. They're fearless. Guide.

Is this fascinating world? Find a forest near you and start exploring and discover the forest dot Org brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. I'm Joe Piazza, the host of Under the Influence on season two of Our podcast. We're exploring what it means to be a woman on social media. We're going into different pockets of influencing to talk about how Instagram is a reflection of all the weights that women are mistreated in our society, and we might just have a plan

to shut it all the hell down. Listen to season two of Under the Influence with Joe Piazza on February ten on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Oh Macron, great timing. M hm, I love Oh Macron. I'm Robert Evans. This is it could happen here a podcast about Greek numbering schemas. Garrison, What do you? What do you? How do you? How do you feel about? Oh Macron? This is the thing to do with the topic we're talking about. So this

is this is an update. A few of right last week were earlier this week we discussed the uh the Trucker Convoy scheduled our episode recorded before the Truck Convoy for after the Truck Convoy had already done a bunch

of things, which was really good. So we we recorded to talk about the fifty trucks that were that we're going to show up at Ottawa and the thing things did happen, Maybe not that not because like I've been listening, some of their claims are like an Alex Jones is parenting there now that it was like eight hundred thousand to a million truckers and there's three hundred thousand truckers in all of Canada, like but it was like it was like it was a lot of people like not

to not to downplay what happened. So we're going to give an update on what happened there and kind of discussed maybe any ramifications that stuff like this could have going forward. But to help with that, um, we have Dan who came on last time to help discuss Hello, thank you for coming on again to talk about the

same thing. Thank you for having me. We last less off with you saying that you hope I don't come back on again because that would be a good thing and it would mean that the bad things did not happen. So sorry to be here under such circumstances. Yeah, you want to go over the bad Yeah, So let's let's briefly do like a recap of like what this thing was like, like why why was it happening? And like what was the idea. When we last left Canada, a bunch of truckers were angry that they had to present

evations evidence of vaccination. This spiraled and, as I'm understanding it, at some point then rejecting all public health measures. Yes. Actually, the the exact demands are for the federal and provincial governments to quote terminate the vaccine passports and all other obligatory obligatory vaccine contact tracing program uh, to terminate COVID vaccine mandates UH, and quote respect the rights of those who wished to remain unvaccinated UH. And here's where it

gets weird. UH. Avisive rhetoric attacking Canadians who disagree with government mandates. Kind of hard to say when that one's fulfilled and finally ceased to limit debate through coercive measures with the goal of censoring those who have varying or incorrect opinions. That's what the convoys for. I mean, do you all know what a government is? Evidentitally I was at some debates in with the state that went a lot uglier than it looks like this. One went oh yeah, yeah,

we we we can talk about that. This this the standoff has been well there's been just that it's been a standoff in that regard. So it seems like they've kind of hooligan around a bunch of towns and threatened a homeless shelter if they didn't give them food, and that they left trash everywhere and set up a checkpoint on the border or just a blockade on the border. I think it's probably more accurate. There's been blockades going

on and up the border. I think the most noteworthy is an Alberta and coop right now, But I might be pronouncing that wrong. And what was the police It was something along the lines of we don't think there's like a policing solution to this problem. Oh yeah, so you're totally up to date that that happened today. Yeah, so a little after two pm t D on a lafter two thirty pm today, the Ottawa Police Chief Pewter slowly said in a press conference that quote, there may

not be a policing solution to this demonstration. Is it really that easy? It's evidently it's that easy if you wait till kind of like the media has had a few days and most of the coverage is just like breaking bad things still happening. Uh so it's it's not great. So what what was the lead up on set? Right? Because they were all they were all all the trucks and caravans and stuff. We're supposed to rive on Saturday. What was the lead up on Saturday? Like? And like

what what what happened like the actual first day? Yeah, so Saturday was technically the first day. Actually Friday. Throughout the day a lot of people started arriving. So the occupation has been we're recording now Wednesday. Um, it started on Friday and the main like the largest contingent of the convoy was staying overnight Friday night in a nearby town called Armfire west of Ottawa, and they moved in from Armpire to Ottawa on Saturday morning. At the same time,

people converged from other parts of Canada. UM to Ottawa's east is Quebec, and to Quebec's east the maritime provinces, and three thousand people at least came from Quebec and so with the convoy to on Saturday, kind of coming

in from different parts. The day between Friday night and Saturday afternoon and Saturday was kind of the big day, the big party, Uh, the main point of contention and the main thing that happened was some major streets are gridlocked by vehicles moving into the city into the very crowded core of auto of my hometown and staying stationary on busy roads. Both commercial and residential roads are part

of this. Driveways for both businesses and residences were blocked off, fire roads were blocked off, and wance roads are blocked off. Local businesses that stayed open had to close throughout the day Saturday, largely UH, some managed to not, and many of just stayed closed already because they knew what was going to happen, and this happened. Closures that happened on Saturday are mostly still going on today as I'm speaking

to you Wednesday night. UH closures followed patterns of harassment, some alleged assaults which Rover mentioned before elso happened at homeless shelter in downtown Ottawa and pretty much everyone I've spoken to I've I've been in Ottawa visiting it to my hometown, and pretty much everyone I've spoken to who lives in the downtown core is that a slew of story since Saturday of either harassment at work or just

harassment walking through the streets. And the worst part of it all is that right now there's not a clear ending in sight. What is it like on the ground there in terms of I know, there's like kind of like a blockade around the border. But they're like, what else is like around Ottawa? What's like? What? Like? What what is what's it like to walk around in these places? And like how big is the area that these people are staying at? Like where are they staying at? Are

they all sleeping in their trucks? Staying at hotels? What's like what's like the It's an excellent question. There's there's a mix of hotels were booked up the week leading up to the weekend. As as the new cycle kind of exploded, more and more people called into hotels in Ottawa. A lot of people actually brought tractors. People are also sleeping in their trucks. Uh. Of course, people have like family and stuff staying in Ottawa. Sometimes they're staying with um.

It's a mix of everything. Actually, I know a guy who even his car was like blocked off in the parking lot. He has to parking because he's downtown. He doesn't have street parking or driveway parking like it's in a public lot, and he couldn't get his car out for over a full day because an RP camper set up near him and just blocked him off. So it's a mix of everything. Uh. Starting on Saturday, there's like a lot of partying, a lot of music, a lot of kids. Uh. It's gotten a little bit more chaotic

and less condensed since then. And also the area is hard to gauge because streets are actually constantly as vehicles move out for one reason or another. Streets are kind of being retaken back organically by the city, but then sometimes throughout the day getting retaken again back by the convoy. So the occupation has been a little fluid on some

of the outside streets. Wellington's Street, which is the street outside of Parliament in Ottawa, has been consistently occupied, to my knowledge, blocking off kind of not actually blocking off, but you have to walk past them as a pedestrian to get onto Parliament Hill. So that's where the kind of the core is, the action of the action is,

and everything else spreads out from that. And near hotels, uh, there's a little more action because that's generally where people are staying how has members of parliament and like local politicians been reacting since Saturday. I know there was there was some videos of like I think one of the MP's from Alberta was giving an interview that gained some traction online. Um, but yeah, it's kind of curious, like how the like different government officials are talking about this.

I'm actually so glad you asked that because as of today, the divide in members of Parliament has actually led to some pretty incredible political ramifications. So last time we spoke, I think Arin O'Toole had just earlier in the day endorsed compoints that he'd be coming down. Arin o't tool, for those unaware, is the leader of the Conservative Party of Canada. He's a real, real o'tool. Wow, whoa mind blown? No one, No one could have seen that joke coming.

Every every Canadian listener just like collectively roll. Yeah. So Aeron o't tool and just endorsed the convoy. He'd been getting some tough questions about it following everything we just talked about and more. Aerono's to will walk that back and said, you know, he didn't approve of the way that the convoy was acting in Ottawa. This led to a swift referendum on his leadership, and earlier today aerono' tool was voted out as the Conservative Party leader in

Canada and that does have pretty big ramifications. I know, I talked about Erin o'tol a decent amount in my previous Canada episodes for codapp and here. Um, so yeah, it will be really interesting to see who, uh what's Do you have any idea of when the new person is going to try to get voted it? Like, when when do you think that process is going to happen to fill that spot. I'm actually not sure. I haven't looked up when it's gonna happen. It feels like there's

been months before. Whether there's an intimaters of the Conservative Party. The main concern right now for those outside of Conservative politics is because Erin o'tool was considered relatively moderate. That you talked about in the Fascism Canada episode, how Erin O'Toole picked out Darren Sloan from the party for being pretty kit on donations from neo Nazi Paul Front on his campaign. Uh. Overall, like that's a pretty great thing that Erin o'tool that kicked him out of the caucus,

like regardless of other elements of that leadership. Uh, there's worrying that that kind of won't be continued forward, especially because Sloan was also in the leadership race and Sloan has only gotten further right since then. It is just despite air no tools, not great aspects, which there are lots of. He did, he did, he did take it.

He did kind of hold back some of the more problematic uh conservative like elements, whether that be you know, people from you know, from his own party, like like Derek, and then also keeping kind of the people's party stuff at bay Um. Yeah, and that will be an interesting kind of power struggle now, that will be something to observe. I think the thing that concerns me most about all of this is the implication of the implications for this

is a tactic. We saw a version of this that was more limited in scope and time in Portland when this huge Trump caravan rolled through downtown, blocked off big chunks of downtown and like just maced and shot people with paintball guns at random, and it was kind of like, I think everyone there surprised at how many folks they got for it. Um, this is a much more evolved version of the same tactic. And it's kind of stuff we talked about in the season one of it could

happen here. This idea of like people coming from these conservative majority areas in a place where the vast majority of people are liberal but centralized in the cities UM and blocking those cities off or otherwise disrupting their ability to transit UM, potentially their ability to get things shipped in like food UM, like their ability to use free

movement UM. And we've seen pieces of this again in a bunch of places, and in Oregon during the wildfires, you had these rural communities setting up checkpoints and stuff looking for people from the cities that they could bill as Antifa. And it's this it's this world worrying trend for a couple of reasons. Number One, when you get ten people to do something like this, even if the city has hundreds of thousands of people, that's effectively too

large a group to police UM. And the police don't want to police it anyway, so there's not even really an attempt to stop of them UM. And it's a way in which the vast majority of Canada, at least based on the polling I'm aware of. UM is not in support of the causes these guys are backing. Was it of the country supports some level of like vaccine mandates, um, if I'm remembering correctly the last one I read. So

this is not a popular movement. It's not even super popular among the truckers, like the actual it doesn't matter how many people in the cities you can get. If you can get fifty people to do something like this, the police won't will not take action, and you can negatively impact the lives of a huge number of millions before it gets radical, right, that's when these guys are not coming in with guns with the express plan to eliminate people or trying to specifically block up food. They're

just kind of sucking around now. But it's this kind of is this thing we've talked about where you have this is the thing in Canada and the United States you had liberals kind of outsourcing the protection of society to this group of increasingly heavily armed and aradiqualized people

who are now in a lot of cases fascists. UM. And that means that when there's a problem with a large chunk of people who hate everything, you stand for the people that you have completely outsourced protection to are all unfavor of fucking with you because they hate you. And it's it's a problem in Oregon, It's going to be a problem in fucking New York City or whatever at some point, it's a problem in Ottawa. Um, I don't know, am I am I off base here? Am I am? I am You're not on base at all?

And uh, like there isn't there isn't anything to to really elaborate on past what you said the last time we spoke. I think, Robert, you said there's not a whole lot. It was what you said that could really really be done with the vehicle occupation tactic and unless a lot of people are willing to meet them with an equal force, which unfortunately Ottawa didn't have. Like it's an Ottawas. Ottawas a relatively large city in Canada. There's

over a million people that live here. Also by land mass, I think the largest city in Canada, like east to west, it's it's very spread out, so it's a low population density. So even the affected area downtown is actually like pretty small in relation to the city itself, which is pretty unfortunate and like it's not a particularly packed downtown for

a large sis downtown. I am. I am curious kind of on the violence aspect um has Like I know, there's been like um increase in death threats to members of parliament, like specifically liberal members of parliament, specifically liberal members of parliament who are women who are maybe not white. Um. So I would curious see if if you have any more kind of information on that side of things, and then how how violence has popped up in a few

places throughout the past like a week. Basically, Yeah, there's been a lot. So, I mean, even if you're going by what's reported like right now, there is by most estimates, under a thousand maybe at most a few thousand, very far spread out people as part of the convoy. As of yesterday, there's thirteen active police investigations. The police of the city the City of Ottawa said in the an Oppressor.

We obviously know when there's like thirteen active investigations in anything this big, there's way more that's not being reported, not being investigated. Um, like they took you know, like these things are going to thirteen is going to be resultful of something bad. So some of the things that happened. Robert mentioned before the alleged assaults on a houseless person inside of Shepherds of Good Hope, in which a security

guard was also called a racial slur. Uh. There was a house that deplayed displayed a rainbow flag outside of it that had harassment and poop thrown at it. Um, they're being we need to get a hundred thousand people together to throw their own poop back at these people. It's the only way they'll learn. Yeah, fighting fire with fire? Is that that expression? I'm sure just emerged from just

a tossing poop at each other's strategy. It's meant for this. Yeah, there's been suggestions all of our social media channels on like here's how you can poop in snowbanks without getting caught. Businesses have been harassed, they've been violence. So like what I think maybe some context that that isn't always known in Ottawa on Saturday and until recently, dining in restaurants

wasn't allowed. We were actually in relatively strict lockdown following around the chron wave and a lot of people even coming like didn't know that. Like I spoke to people on Saturday who were like, hey, do you know like when the restaurants around here opens, so we can like sit down for a meal. And I was like, there's no sitting down on auto this. So what people were doing, they were going inside cafe is like two burns and stuff, and they were just refusing to leave in eating their

food there anyways. And if there was no seats, they were just like eating in line. It was also minus twenty eight degrees in Ottawa on Saturday and very very cold on Sunday. There was an extreme cold weather warning, so especially when people brought their kids, there wasn't a lot of other options other than like swarm the malls and swarm restaurants. And even then the mall, the main mall downtown Rito Center, was closed part way throughout the day because it was not a safe place. So I

already talked before about routes getting blocked. Also not physical violence, but honking has been keeping people awake. There's been endless honking if you watch video footage from it, and even in the background right now I'm coming from Ottawa, like I can hear honking in my background. Um. Some people allegedly parked and then urinated on the tomb of an unknown soldier which is yeah, this isn't political. Is even the wrong way to describe a lot of the what's

fun about this for these people, it's that they suck. Yeah, it's fucking it's just it's just fucking cooliganism. Uh And that's yeah, it's it's fucking cooliganism. There's gonna be a lot more stories coming out, for sure, U as things progress, um of stories of harassment, Like I've talked to people who have gotten a cat call in the night. People getting violent altercations, street fights, and I'm sure are going to break out. It's kind of at a very tense

point right now. And Auto we're at that point. We're like, Okay, we're seeing some signs like pops getting thrown at the houses. What's gonna happen next? Because the police are saying they don't have a plan, and the truckers are saying they're not leaving. What's it like outside of Bottawa, across across all the other places where there's like similar activity happening. They're all looking to us and being concerned. From what I'm talking to, Uh, anti fascists and Alberta are particularly

concerned right now with the coop protests. There's ongoing to uh, I keep seeing popping up like US Canada border activities. In the same there's a few attempted convoys by Americans and even before in Europe there was a few attempts. Some got turned away. Some Americans got turned away the Canadian borders. They weren't vaccinated. H Yeah, which is you know, like it's like you think, because that's the reason they're saying they're protesting, they would have remembered that and thought

maybe that's gonna like come into play, But I don't. Yeah, I don't know, because there is a certain point where if you get enough people going, it would be interesting to see people really do just try to like drive through the border. M Yeah. And I mean there's been people like you look at social media channels, a lot of them saying like the borders are blocked right now

with thousands of truckers supporting our cause. So if you saw that and you believed it, and then you went to the border and your turn away reading a vaccine, you meant thought, well, I thought I had you know, nine people the same causes being we're ready to use for us, which begs the question, but what happens when you do exactly. I don't want to find out. Yeah,

that's yeah. That's the thing is like if if if they do, if they did have what they say they had, would they just start doing those things and not even think about it and not even think about like the politics of it. They're just doing it to do it. Yeah. I should also mention too, we talked last time about

a Plaid Army slash Diaglon members comments. Uh. They were broadcast on the news about doing another quote January six, uh, and it came out the news to do was first reported by Frank magazine and I think by the Canadian Anti eight network that he was arrested on fire up striges in No Scotia before coming here. Worth noting he was reporting live on Info Wars on the Alex Jonestones

Saturday before this came out and Derek Skid coverage. Yeah, Derek Sloan and Nazrael event were also on the same program, So I mentioned Info Wars before. That's that's great, that's what's going on there. Can you see any like beyond the conservative leadership? What other kind of political implications are people thinking about in Canada? It's really tense seeing what's

gonna come for other cities. Also, Otto was expecting a second wave some other people in other places that kind of didn't think the first one is going to be huge success. We're saying, well, now that it's an occupation, we're coming, and police are even saying there's a second wave. It's a very tense place right now. We don't really know what to do. Community places are taking direct community members are talking about taking direct action because it's been

so long. This isn't something that the city of Otta is particularly used to, unfortunately in my lifetime, and so the ramifications of the future pretty jarring. But what's alarming is how successful this occupation was with a relatively small number. I think the highest estimate it was eighteen thou people into a city of over a million, which isn't really that many when you think about it, but the strategy

was very, very effective. You think about how many fighters it took for Josh to take control of mosl it if people if there's not resistance, like there's only really a few areas of a city that you need to occupy in order to have a great deal of control over what can be done. Yeah, and that's the tough part is they have a lot of control over that small area in residents lives. They don't have a lot of control over Parliament, which is what they're protesting for. Yeah.

I've also just to see has the Canadian military said anything about these protests and the situation. So the Ottawa Police chief in his pressure day was asked a lot about that, and he's still shying away. He's still saying he doesn't think military is the only option, which if you're an activist on the other side of things and worried about police escalation hurting you in the future, that might be a good thing to hear. Yea and a see of shitty news. I'm not convinced that the military

would fix the problem. I'm not either. And also Ottawa had other police forces coming to They said they're spending eight hundred thousand dollars a day, uh, initially to just costing police. Yeah. They also said they've only, like bylaws, only had a hundred fifty tickets since this whole thing started in the ocupied zone. So it's it's unclear what a lot of them did other than you know, keep up appearances. Uh. Like I was walking around, I saw

York Region police officers walking around with their patches. That's hundreds of kilometers away from Ottawa. So the police presence, especially on the weekend, was not low. We we had plenty mhm. They either didn't know what to do, I thought it would die later, or a mixture of all the above. And there's been talked to mixtures of Some police officers have not been happy with it, but there hasn't been really anything in the news yet because no

one's come forward. A lot of like tweets of like from reporter saying I have an anonymous source in the auto police. It says they wish more actions were taken, some saying otherwise, it's not really united right now. And yeah, it's scary. Is there any counter protests being planned for Ottawa? If I knew, i'd say so, because by the time this errors, they would have happened. So I think you'd be safe to talk talk about. But fortunately I'm not really insure. I'm not actually sure, but it might not

be the best person to ask. Yeah, we're keeping an eye out. Well. The good news is that all men die, and so long as men die, liberty will never perish. Right, that's good it's an upside. That is an upside, it's an up positive shot. All right, Well, that's gonna do it for us. We'll keep an eye on this and um what what results from it, because it's all pretty concerning,

um and worth having having an eye. And I'm particularly curious is to just like what kind of direct community responses to this develop because I think that's going to wind up being the only long term solution. You know, It's kind of what people saw in Portland that you there's a there's a degree to which like the only thing that really works as a response is is outnumbering them. Yeah, on that note, it might be maybe not the smoothest transition.

But there are actually some Autowa mutual Aid funds and then Advocate Secrets that are doing some some cool stuff. And there's there's too many of the list for everyone, but others have compiled lists, and I'm gonna point to you there so ROSE Ottawa, which stands for Rainbow Autowa Student Experience as there's two s l G B t q I A plus post secondary students on unseated algonquin on a Shnave territory. Though they have closed op donations

for themselves following a wonderful spike recently. They have a list of black lead and black empowering organizations on their website with donation links and you can reach that at Rose Ottawa dot org slash donations. Uh, there's a cool little Instagram account called transis Beautiful O T T O T T stands for Ottawa and that's all one word. It's been plugging small fundraisers for queer folks affected by the Convoy, including housing support on their Instagram. Again, that's

transis Beautiful O T T on Instagram. Uh. Something we didn't get to talk about, which is ram Ranch Ram Ranch dot c A r A n dash Ranch dot c A a website was set up in the name of trolling the convoy zelo chats and has been doing a fantastic job about there's a whole army of trolls in the Trucker's elo chats and it's been really entertaining to tune into. They've compiled the list of charities on

their website. You can check that out at ram dash Ranch dot c A and clicking on the Rancher's donation zone and yeah, where can where can people find you? On the Internet. People can find me on the Internet. I'm super active on Twitter at at spineless L where it spineless the letter L fantastic. Well, hopefully, hopefully this gets all resolved and I don't need to fly up to Canada to go to a protest, and if if we do, that'll be fun. I've been wanting to go

to Canada for a minute. Yeah I can, we can? We can uh take drugs at to Morton's. Would Yeah? God, you know, I haven't vomited in a tim Horton's bathroom in a long time. Our local McDonald's that got famous on the internet for fistfight that someone pulled a raccoon out of their backpack during had to actually stop being twenty four hours after the mayor pleaded with them because it was using up too many police resources. That is the best kind of place in a year. That's so dope.

Oh god, yeah, I wanna. I want to set up somewhere on the border in the East coast to tim Horton's, directly across the street from a waffle house and just let them fight. Well, yeah, we we do. We we do this. That here, that's that's you'll have to bring that for you have to bring that over, bring a waffle house fives over. All you need to do is watch a man get stabbed and then spiritually you're at a waffle house. That that ties back to the future

of the convoy. You're right, well, that doesn't for us today, everybody, when people'll see you later. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe. It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. Or more podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our website cool zone media dot com or check us out on the I Heart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening. The art world it is essentially a money laundering business. The best fakes are still hanging on people's walls. You know they don't even know or suspect that they're fakes. I'm Out Like Baldwin and is a podcast about deception, greed,

and forgery in the art world. I just walked in and saw this bright red painting, presuming to be a Rothko of course, art forgeries only happen because there's money to be made, a lot of money. I'm listening to what they're paying for these things. It was an incredible mans of money. You knew the painting was fake. UM. Listen to art fraud on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.