It Could Happen Here Weekly 152 - podcast episode cover

It Could Happen Here Weekly 152

Oct 19, 20243 hr 51 min
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Episode description

All of this week's episodes of It Could Happen Here put together in one large file. Sources can be found in the descriptions of each individual episode.

  1. Hurricane Conspiracy Theories

  2. The 2028 General Strike and Climate Change
  3. Israel's History with UN Peacekeepers in Lebanon
  4. Anarchism In Argentina, Pt. 1 feat. Andrew
  5. Anarchism In Argentina, Pt. 2 feat. Andrew

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Transcript

Speaker 1

Media.

Speaker 2

Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going to be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions.

Speaker 3

Welcome to it could happen here. It is a beautiful sunny day in Atlanta, Georgia, which means I think they're all lying about the weather. They said this hurricane was going to come, and I'm fine, I don't believe them. It's all fake. Joined with me today is Mia Wong. I'm Garrison Davis. Welcome di could happen here?

Speaker 4

Welcome man, It's hey.

Speaker 5

Look it's cloudy in Portland, so clearly they were telling the truth.

Speaker 4

I don't know what's going on in your reality, but.

Speaker 3

I can't believe that the Republicans have hijacked the weather Control Matrix and are aiming it at Portland, Oregon to wipe it off the map, to give Oregon to give Horicans vote to Donald Trump in the next election.

Speaker 5

You know, one of my foundational early political memories was discovering that, like the mid twenty tens era mayor of Ankara thought that NATO had an earthquake machine that they were setting off off the coast of Turkey in order to cause namies during hurricane season, so that because so deep, NATO could destroy the Turkish economy.

Speaker 3

And I hope so now.

Speaker 4

We thought that was very funny.

Speaker 5

And now every single like major politician did America believe some shit like that now.

Speaker 3

And I was like, oh, everyone has something, not everyone has the same thing, but everyone has something crazy that they believe. And that's what we're talking about here today. So oh boy, it is. It has gotten bad, folks.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 3

As Hurricane Helene and Hurricane Milton brought widespread devastation to the southeastern United States, politicians, TV anchors, and influencers have been trying to weaponize the tragedy and the disaster relief effort for their own partisan electoral gain, particularly via the use of disinformation. Now, while the government's response to Hurricane Helene can certainly be criticized, bad fight attacks originating from the far right have spread wildly online and have been

boosted by Trump and Fox News. Many of these focus on the Federal Emergency Management Agency, or FEMA, with some of them connecting to like decades old conspiracy theories about

the agency. Yeah, so this episode, we're going to go over some of the conspiracy theories and misinformation circulating about these hurricanes, but not necessarily to like debunk them, because like, I know who's listening to this, but I think it's actually more helpful to place them into the larger tapestry of conspiracy thinking leading into the election and discuss how modern misinformation has presented a whole new problem that simple fact checks aren't equipped to handle.

Speaker 5

Hey, Garrison, you are very confident about that, but I personally know leftists who I have been friends with who believe the weather weapons shit. So you never know.

Speaker 3

Well, I mean, I do believe that fact checks aren't going to be the main solution here.

Speaker 5

Oh no, they're not gonna help that. I'm just saying, Look, there are believers everywhere for the eyes to see.

Speaker 3

It's great, That's kind of what I'm saying here. Yeah, Now, let's start by talking about Donald Trump and FEMA. Oh God, So some of the misinformation spreading about FEMA right now includes the claim that the agency is only providing seven hundred and fifty dollars in aid to individuals affected by Hurricane Helene, when actually the seven hundred and fifty dollars payments are just the initial really funds to help with

immediate needs. There's also been claims that FEMA only issues loans and any relief money received has to be paid back. This isn't true. Only in rare cases when someone receives duplicate funds from FEMA and insurance does money have to be returned to FEMA. There's also been claims that if victims fail to pay back FEMA, they will then seize your property. This is also falls more on this later now. A TikTok video with over a million views claimed that

FEMA is raiding people's homes to seize supplies. This isn't true. FEMA doesn't raid people's healths. On a more racist note, it's claimed that FEMA has run out of money for hurricane victims because Kamala spent billions of FEMA dollars on housing for illegal immigrants. At a campaign rally, Donald Trump said, and I'm not going to do the voice the Harris Biden administration says they don't have money because they spent

it all on illegal immigrants. They stole the FEMA money, just like they stole it from a bank so that they could give it to their illegal immigrants, unquote. This lie was also shared by Sean Hannity on Fox News, and even when confronted with facts that discredit this claim, commentators on Fox still insist that even though it's not technically true, it still feels true.

Speaker 7

It may not be actually true that FEMA resources that could have been available in North Carolina have been given to migrants, but there's no question about the broad orientation of FEMA the Biden Harris administration, which has been to channel huge amounts of money to communities and to non governmental organizations to help with the massive influx of migrants that they themselves have created.

Speaker 5

And this is a fun one too, because like there is FEMA underfunding. But the reason there's FEMA underfunding is it Republicans keep voting not to give it more money.

Speaker 3

Yes, which like oh boy, I mean again, like this is a big part of the Republican strategy just making life worse for everybody so that everyone's more angry so that people will vote Republican. And that's that is the strategy they want, because as long as they're as long as their base is doing badly and like upset and angry, they will find some way to blame it on the opposition and then vote in Republican. This has been the conservative governmental strategy for decades.

Speaker 5

Yeah, do all the terrible stuff and then blame the stuff that you did on immigrants, which, yeah, good times, love this country, great stuff happening.

Speaker 3

A famously reliable strategy. Trump's also lied about the governor of Georgia not being able to get in contact with President Biden coordinate disaster relief efforts, when in fact they had spoken to day prior. Trump also claimed that the federal government and the North Carolina Democratic governor have been quote going out of their way to not help people

in Republican areas unquote. This is also completely false that there were more isolated areas in North Carolina that were harder to reach, but people are trying to get there, and in fact, some of the hardest reach areas were actually immigrant communities who were too scared to like actually ask for federal help out of fear they would be deported. So like, yes, there actually is people really struggling to get a relief, but it's not by and large your

Trump voters. Like again, certainly the relief efforts managed by the government have had their fair share of problems. People are not getting all the help they need. But this is not a conspiracy by the Democratic governor to deprive

Republicans of hurricane relief. Like, that's not true. Now, Trump's falsehoods about the hurricane and the disaster response in service of his reelection campaign have signaled that it's aok for Republicans to spread all manner of hurricane conspiracy theories targeting the federal government. Oh boy, and this is where we're gonna get into the newest conspiracy theory sweeping the nation, that the government controls the weather, all of the weather,

especially hurricanes. Now, this is not a new conspiracy theory.

Speaker 4

Certainly, I'm so sick of the weather weapon shit.

Speaker 3

But the fact that we have sitting congressman, including Mantorie Taylor Green from Georgia, who is riding this thing like a fucking horse is a little bit wild. She has been posting NonStop the past week about how quote unquote they control the weather. I wonder what they means. She has been attributing the weather modification to a few different agencies, including the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

Speaker 5

Yeah, sure of sure, no one's doing this, like comeine.

Speaker 3

She has posted me that prove that they're controlling the weather because they list a whole bunch of weather modification patents. Now, the funny thing is is that most of these patents are like over one hundred years old, if many of them are expired. Yeah, these patents contain plans to drop water from balloons to produce rain. That's the weather modification she's talking about. She included a patent that includes like a way to use like airplane exhaust to blow away

poison gas from like trenches. That's chemtrails, Garrison, it's chemtrails. It's absurd. All of these things are like are like ancient patents and like weather modification is a real thing technically, like we have been trying to alter the weather. One of the pointed to like real technologies is cloud seating. Cloud seating is a small scale technology to alter clouds precipitation, usually to increase the cloud's ability to produce localized rain.

By adding ice or condensation nuclei into the forming clouds. This helps areas suffering from drought and low Reall cloud seating has been jumped upon by Republican conspiracy theorists as proof that the government is actually engaging in a massive weather control operation, including to produce hurricanes. Now, hurricanes are famously quite large, and it is impossible to determine the path or cause one to happen. This just simply isn't true.

Speaker 5

Yeah, And I mean the largest scale like attempts to manipulate whether that humanity has ever done like on purpose that wasn't global warming was from two thousand and eight Olympics in Beijing, and it took. It took the entire industrial, technological and scientific capacity of a nation of one billion people and putting like an unfathomable amount of resources and planning and like logistical capability at specifically not making it ran in Beijing for like a fairly small amount of

time and lowering the air pollution levels. They barely managed to pull that off, so they they sort of kind of made the weather better in one city for like two weeks. And that took a a level of resource coordination like fucking unfathomable, like most human history like that.

Speaker 3

It's it's it's very challenging to alter the weather. It requires it requires a lot of resources. No, it doesn't, it doesn't work very well.

Speaker 5

Like that's like shut down factories across like half the country, Like it was fiasco, And like these people.

Speaker 3

Aren't actually like talking about that. They're talking about conspiratorial efforts from the federal government's illuminati to to like to like target hurricanes. Yeah, like on certain red states to alter the election. Like that, that's that's really what they're talking about. Conspiracy theorists and the right have pointed it to HARP University of Alaska Fairbreaks program, not the HARP that uses high frequency equipment to study the upper atmosphere.

According to Reuters, no atmospheric monitoring equipment do not alter the weather. Conspiracy theorists have also targeted Doppler radios and next rad basically like radar control systems and radio control systems as being used to change weather patterns and cause hurricanes. This, this isn't true. You can't change the weather with a

radio or with radar. Again, like we're not debunking this because this is so No, this is so ludicrous, But these are the conspiracy theories that they're invoking, and like and like Harp, conspiracy theories do go back quite a while. I've seen a few other things talking about like direct energy weapons and lasers from space or lasers from the ground pointed out the atmosphere which caused hurricanes to form. This also isn't real. We cannot cause a hurricane deform. It's it's too big.

Speaker 5

And the thing about this stuff is like these are all old conspiracies, right, but it's like these are things that used to be like like you would you would walk into a room full of guys who believe that nine to eleven was staged with holograms and that MK all to successfully produced mind control that was originally developed by North Korea, and those people would laugh the like

harp idiots out of the room. Yeah, it was a conspiracy scene by other conspiracy theorists as like too obviously bullshit, Like do you.

Speaker 3

Know what isn't bullshit? Meya?

Speaker 4

Is it the product of services that support this podcast?

Speaker 3

It sure is.

Speaker 5

The MyPillow guy, you try to sell gold, now here we go get your gold. All right, we are back. But yes, these conspiracy theories.

Speaker 3

Have existed for a long time talking about some degree of the government's ability to influence natural disasters and like big weather events. People have tried to blame forest fires on lasers. Specifically the Maui fires from a few years ago, they said were actually caused by direct energy weapons to get people to flee their land so that it could

be seized by the federal government. All this kind of stuff. Now, like some of them also point to like geo engineering, right, they say that although geoengineering is said to conduct climate change, it actually causes climate change. Geoengineering there's technically a few forms, but the one that we're talking about basically like injects aricized chemicals into the atmosphere to reflect some light. Obviously reflecting some lights, not gonna make a hurricane worse, but whatever.

So this has gotten really bad. This has taken over a significant portion of the online right to the point that even people like Dysantis are having to come out and say, hey, guys, no, this that this isn't real. In a press conference, Dysantis claimed that there are in fact weather conspiracies quote on both sides.

Speaker 4

Uh huh, yeah. By one friend.

Speaker 3

You kind of have some people who think the government can do this, and others think it's because of fossil fuels unquote.

Speaker 4

Oh my fucking guy.

Speaker 3

Has communication director later reiterated the claim, saying, quote, the government controls the other crowd and the global warming and climate change alarmists are two sides of the same coin, unscientific agenda, motivated and unhelpful. Following a storm, weather is weather unquote Jesus Christ. Even in their refutation of the weather controlling conspiracies, they cannot help but dip into some climate denial conspiracies. We love to see it.

Speaker 4

Oh my god.

Speaker 3

Now I think like hurricanes and natural disasters are uniquely susceptible to misinformation. During times of crisis, people try to search for information to relieve stress, and they often don't take the extra time to verify said information. Whenever a new natural disaster strikes, old footage and videos circulate, being passed off as current events. Conversations and arguments about climate change and climate denial also spark during natural disasters, leading

to a surge of climate change conspiracy theories. While this is nothing new, the way people are getting information is changing with the increased use of AI chat bought personal assistance and image generation. There was this TikTok trend ahead of Hurricane Milton where you ask in Amazon Alexa what the result of the hurricane was going to be before it hit landfall. I'm gonna play this video that has over two million views on Twitter.

Speaker 8

Alexa how many laves were lost during Hurricane Milton. Overall? Extreme Hurricane Milton caused twenty one point three billion dollars in damages and caused two hundred and sixty two fatalities October eighth, twenty twenty four, twelve to fifteen pm Central Time.

Speaker 3

Very scary now. This other video has over seven hundred and fifty thousand views on TikTok Alexa.

Speaker 9

What kind of hurricane is Hurricane Milton?

Speaker 8

From fandom dot com. Hurricane Milton was an extremely powerful Category five hurricane that caused widespread damage across its path in October four. They've already predicted the outcome from your wife.

Speaker 6

So.

Speaker 3

That one may have given you a hint about what's going on here. Obviously, Alexa doesn't know the future, nor has the government pre programmed data about It's a secret weather control program into your eco device. Alexa just pulls from information it finds online, in this case fandom dot com hypothetical hurricanes wiki Are You Fucking? Which is a wiki which is a wiki based comprehensive database of hypothetical tropical cyclone articles that anyone can edite.

Speaker 5

You know, I said, I said as a I said as a joke a couple of years ago that we were about two years out from the QAnon people discovering the plot of metal gear solid and believing it was real. But like, we're so close to that now we are two months out from them from from an AI telling them the plot of metal gear solid and then believing the patriots secretly control the government.

Speaker 3

They're quoting from a fandom wiki on fake hurricanes that people make for fun, and it can be manipulated in the lead up to a hurricane specifically to cause this type of reaction. Again, like as a bit right, it's absurd now to go even further into this AI singularity. Hell hole.

Speaker 4

Oh no.

Speaker 3

A Twitter user tried to debunk that first video I played, predicting the death toll. In the replies, this other user wrote, quote, there was a Hurricane Milton in the year two thousand. Please before you post, at least try to fact check with Groc unquote. They include a Grock AI screenshot that reads, quote, the name Milton has been used for one hurricane in the Atlantic basin. Hurricane Milton occurred in two thousand. However, for the twenty twenty four hurricane season, there was another

hurricane Milton. Thinking it the second time this name has been used for an Atlantic hurricane.

Speaker 10

Unquote.

Speaker 3

So in argument then ensued about which AI is wrecked quote. Grock and chat GPT disagree on the existence of a prior hurricane Milton. Groc says, prior to the twenty twenty four hurricane season, there were no hurricanes named Milton in the Atlantic. Next, I asked chat GPT Hurricane Milton, which occurd in the year nineteen ninety caused significant damage, particularly in Mexico where it made landfall. I asked chat GPT a second time. Was there a Milton hurricane in two thousand?

Chat GPT said, yes, there was a Hurricane Milton in two thousand. It formed in the Eastern Pacific in late December. You know, another person replied, saying, Grock states a two thousand hurricane named Milton struck struck Nicaragua in two thousand, but it doesn't show up on the National Weather Services hurricane tracking charts for two thousand unquote. Very curious. It's insane.

It's insane. These people are using chat, GPT, and grock ai as search engines, and when they hallucinate to take data, they're alleging some kind of conspiracy theory to suppress data on a previous hurricane Milton, I mean, and it's also just worse, like having like this person condescend, being like, please before you post, try to fact check with grok. You're like, what the fuck are you talking about? Groc is a comedy AI chatbot that's going to generate you

like a nonsense response. It's not a fact checking tool, it's not even a search engine. They're just hallucinating data that people are then passing off as real information.

Speaker 5

I think I kind of feel for these people in the sense that, like, if you live through the twenty tens, the thing that you were able to do, and that you were trained to do, was that you had a question, you would type it into Google and sometimes it would give you the right answer.

Speaker 9

Yeah.

Speaker 4

Right.

Speaker 5

But now it's like a machine has been created that answers to question. What if Google never gave you the correct answer. And all of these people have been trained that they can put this into the Internet and it will give them the correct answer, except now we have a machine that destories the entire Amazon every single second in order to generate the wrong answer.

Speaker 3

Well, and like specifically because of how these like AI systems have been politicized with like Elon Musk and stuff like, Republicans view it as like a political imperative to use them over the Democrat leaning like search engines, and people aren't just turning to AI and Louse search engine, They're also using TikTok. They're also now using x as their own search engine to get reliable information from users instead of actually like verified information online which you can find

with a little bit of searching. So all this is creating a quite volatile scenario where misinformation is spreading at a faster pace than it really ever has before. Now, just like in the Springfield pet eating hoax, people on the right are also spreading AI images as evidence of how the Biden Harris government failed their disaster relief response after Hurricane Helene. The most circulated image is of a crying little girl wearing a life vest holding a wet puppy.

Oh no, she is sitting in a boat surrounded by floodwater. This is this is pure boomer.

Speaker 5

Bait, right like, yeah, you will never regret liking this post.

Speaker 3

Rolling Stone traced this AI image to a Trump web forum called Patriots dot Win Oh God, and like users there quickly saw that it was AI, but that didn't stop its spread online. The image she got on Twitter and was spread around after being posted by Utah Senator Mike Lee, who has a dark mega profile picture. I'm going to quote from Rolling Stone quote. Laura Lumer called the image sad, quote, tweeting from a post by Buzz Patterson, columnist for the conservative blog Red State, who wrote of

the picture, our government has failed us again. Amy Kamier, RNC, national committeewoman for the Georgia GOP and the co founder of Women for Trump, tweeted on Thursday that the image has been quote seared into my mind unquote. Informed that she was not looking at an authentic photo. Kermer doubled down, y'all, I don't know where this photo came from, and honestly it doesn't matter. There are people going through much worse

than what is shown in this pic. So I'm leaving it up because it's the emblematic of the trauma and the pain people are living through right now. Unquote. Oh my god. So I get like at this point, people know they're spreading fake information, but they're doing it anyway because it helps them, like they are willing participants in

the complete removal of reality from their constituent's brains. A mega Twitter account posted this AI photo with the girl in the puppy and wrote, quote, Kamala doesn't have enough money for this child. I can't hate this administration enough unquote, Oh my god. So do you know what I can't hate enough?

Speaker 11

No?

Speaker 10

No?

Speaker 11

Uh?

Speaker 3

Do you know what I love dearly with my full my full life force?

Speaker 4

Is it products? Services? Yeah?

Speaker 3

It's the products and services at support this podcast. Listen to them. We will be right back afterwards. Okay, we return to conclude our Hurricane Missing Foe run down. So why is this stuff catching on? Like, what's happening that's causing this to be so much worse than usual? What's going on? Why is this spreading right now? To answer that question, I'm first going to read a tweet from Candice Taylor, a Georgia candidate for governor back in twenty

twenty two. Quote, the weather can and is being manipulated. Wake up, Stop being ignorant or plain stupid. There's no such thing as coincidence. The most important election in the history of America is thirty days away. Pray Georgia. Voting has been compromised, and I don't know if we will be able to get all of our early voting days in. Now a hurricane is coming straight for Florida. These two

states are necessary for our Trump victory. No coincidence, So, of course this is all a conspiracy to send hurricane specifically at red states to compromise Trump's ability to win the election. A woman at a Trump rally explained that that the government is using cloud seating to make the hurricanes worse, and that this was pre planned because Amazon Alexas already knew the information about the hurricanes ahead of time.

Her reasoning was that the hurricane damaged land could be seized for lithium mining by Kamala Harris's husband, and that the weather was controlled to rig the election against Trump. Now, this little tidbit about Kamala's husband that a nice little anti semitic jab in there. Of course, the Jews are

controlling the weather to do lithium mining. Why not? And I'm not going to play a short clip from this interview, not the whole thing, so it's way too long, and she rambles about cloud seating for longer than I want to include, but I will include this one short clip.

Speaker 12

You're implying that the government made a hurricane stronger to hurt its own country, the United States of America?

Speaker 13

Correct?

Speaker 3

And what would be the gain of that when if.

Speaker 14

You like, there's been people out there, if they have an alexa, I don't know. If you've heard that and they've asked what caused Milton, you can go on there now. It's already predicted the number of deaths and the amount of it's already predicted it On a Google it won't do that. If you ask it about Halleen, it'll tell you the government actively used seed clouding. This is before Helen even happened.

Speaker 12

Why would a country want to have a hurricane be strong and hit its own country.

Speaker 14

Because they want to control certain places. And if you're looking at where the hurricane's going, it's a lot of red states. If you're looking at the counties in North Carolina, that were hit. There are all of them. Twenty six out of twenty eight of those counties were for Trump. They're doing whatever they can because they can't.

Speaker 4

Rig the election, even control the weather.

Speaker 3

Yes, very compelling stuff coming out of the Trump rallies.

Speaker 4

Jesus Christ.

Speaker 3

I'm going to quote from a Media Matters article on hurricane misinformation and conspiracy theories. Quote. A video with over sixty four thousand views has on screen text that reads were at the point of revolution. It features a user speculating for over six minutes that Hurricane Helene was somehow part of a plan to suppress white Republican votes. Quote. You might be able to speculate that this is something to do with the fact that these are largely white

rule Appalachian areas that have been affected. They're looking at it like this, this election is three weeks from now. We've just wiped out the complete and total infrastructure for all these towns and cities. That's great, because guess which way these towns leaned. They leaned red. These were largely Republican leading towns. As far as they're concerned, they could all die and they don't care because that's just one

less vote for Trump. Unquote yes, Asheville, North Carolina, famously famously a Republican town, famously the conservative paradise of Asheville. Now a lot of these conspiracies also link up to very old like FEMA conspiracies. Right, there's been conspiracies about FEMA since like the nineteen eighties. They've been heavily tied

in with the militia movement. The formation of the Oath Keepers was in response to FEMA concentration conspiracy theories basically that they'll use natural disasters and FEMA to like round up patriots to do some kind of new World order, or that they're gonna use FEMA to seize your land so then you're gonna be put in a FEMA concentration camp. Very old conspiracies. Now these have kind of fed into the current conspiracy matrix regarding the hurricanes. I'm gonna quote

from this one guy on Twitter called the health Ranger. No, not the health Ranger.

Speaker 6

No me.

Speaker 3

And do you know who the health Ranger is?

Speaker 5

Yeah, the health Ranger is is a frequent Alex Jodes guest.

Speaker 3

Yes, yes, like an anti vax guy.

Speaker 5

And Ale He's a whole thing in in this whole conspiracy universe.

Speaker 3

I hate him so much. He does, and this is this is what he says about the current hurricanes quote no in coming intel all caps. FEMA is waiving ungodly amounts of money at private security firms right now, begging for security contractors to station at Florida to prevent Floridians from returning to their homes and businesses after the storm hits. The evacuation orders are to push people out of Florida

and keep them out. Reportedly, delta force personnel advising FEMA at the top devising denial of area enforcement plans which will be enforced at gunpoint if required. I'm told FEMA is practically panicked to get enough armed personnel on site, anticipating a tremendous amount of resistance from displaced people who

want to return home to salvage whatever they can. This is the next step up the escalation ladder as the federal government wages war against the American people, as we saw FEMA care bring out in North Carolina, actively hindering rescue efforts to maximize starvation and death to the people. Do not escalate. Hold your ground peacefully and firmly. This looks a lot like a J six style trap to provoke an insurrection and declare martial law to cancel the election.

Don't play into their hands. Unquote. This unhinged diatribe got over ten thousand likes and was spread wildly around Twitter. A few days ago, the Institute for Strategic Dialogue posted an article documenting this current conspiracy ecosystem, and they included one TikTok video that stated, quote to my North Carolina families, please, I know it's hard, but please do not take that seven hundred and fifty dollars. It's alone, and if you

don't pay it back, they will seize your property. In response to this, FEMA clearly stated that FEMA cannot seize your property or land. Applying for disaster assistance does not grant FEMA or the federal government authority or ownership over your property your land. So now we have these conspiracy theorists which are being boosted by Republican officials basically encouraging people to resist help from FEMA, to not evacuate, and

like all of this puts themselves and others in great danger. Right, you might say, well, if conspiracy theorists don't want help from from FEMA, like what's the harm, right, Well, these people have like kids, like these these people have families. It's not just them that are going to be affected. If they're refusing to evacuate their family from from the path of a hurricane and like their kids die, that's

super fucked up. If they're refusing like help from FEMA to like feed themselves in their family, that's that's not a good sign of the current state of this country. Yeah, yeah, like it's it's bad. Rondasantis's press secretary had to come out against the the unhinged ramble from health ranger on Twitter. She quote tweeted his post saying spreading lives like this

could have serious consequences. If people in evacuation zones see this and decide not to evacuate despite warnings from state and local emergency management, they are unnecessarily putting their own lives and the lives of first responders at grave risk.

Speaker 5

Unquote wow the wow, Well, the fucking Rhondas sandus Is press person. The leopards are finally eating your face af you joined the lebregating faith party.

Speaker 3

Wow. Who could possibly have predicted this? The Raw Decientists team has been replaced by the lizard people. I swear.

Speaker 5

No.

Speaker 3

I think it's got so bad that in DeSantis' like emergency declaration, he had to specifically put in language that stated that law enforcement will help ensure that people can return to their property after the evacuation has ended. Like goofy, goofy shit. And just like in general, all these FEMA conspiracies are preventing people in need from requesting a badly

needed help from the agency. I'm going to include this one clip from this guy who was interviewed on MSNBC talking about how his family has been refusing help in North Carolina.

Speaker 9

My father in law lives just outside of Asheville, North Carolina, and he was badly damaged by Hurricane Helene. And he has refused all FEMA help because he's a hardcore Trumper and he believes, he literally believes that he accepts anything from FEMA. They're going to take his house. I don't understand how so many people are under the spell of this freaking con man. I don't understand it.

Speaker 15

Well, it's absolutely heartbreaking about your father in law. I'm so sorry to hear it.

Speaker 9

It's you know, and it's hard just it's hard to even imagine it. I mean, he lost almost everything, and he's refusing all help from the federal government and complaining to us that he doesn't have food, that he doesn't have the stuff he needs, and yet he won't accept the help. What the hell are we supposed to do. We're not in a position to be able to fly across the country and help him. There's people begging us to get him to accept help, and he won't do it. Wow,

And I guarantee you I'm not the only one. I guarantee you I'm not the only one.

Speaker 15

I wish there was something I could say as to you know, I don't know, is there. Does he have access to any electronics where you could send him some information debunking this and that he might We've.

Speaker 9

Done all of that. We've done all of that. We've sent him, We've sent him all the them of bulletins, we've sent him all the stuff from the fact checkers. He doesn't believe it. He thinks it's all. He just believes Trump. Literally, Dan, he just it's a cult. He's a cult member. I'm sorry to say it. He's a He's a cult member, and he's my father in law. And it sucks.

Speaker 3

That's pretty bad. That's uh, that's devastating, and I think that is very resonant to a lot of people right now. And how this whole like conspiracy Missymphilico system that's been getting worse silly over the course of the eight years has just like ruined families and puts people in like constant active danger. Now, these conspiracies have also led to threats against FEMA workers and meteorologists for both being a

part of the conspiracy and for controlling the weather. I'm going to read a quote from the Institute for Strategic Dialogue. Quote falsehoods around hurricane response have spawned credible threats and incitement to violence directed at the federal government. This includes calls to send militias to face down FEMA for the perceived denial of aid, and that individuals should quote unquote

shoot FEMA officials and the agency's emergency responders. Unverified claims abou attacks on FEMA representatives have been used to glorify and encourage violence unquote. Media matters archived at TikTok video threatening a FEMA employees, which received over two hundred thousand views, saying, quote deer FEDS and FEMA if you're trying to deny people access to help in the affected area. Be advised,

we're still under the War on Terror emergency declaration. If you violate your constitutional oath to protect and assist, the charge will be treason. Punishment can mean being unalived immediately by the citizens you are withholding aid from unquote on TikTok. They're threatening to unalive governmentations.

Speaker 10

Another mineo states.

Speaker 3

Quote public notice we the United States of America had declared FEMA personnel engaged in obstructing local rescue efforts in the area impacted by Hurricane Helen to be enemies of the state. A FEMA personnel offer any further obstruction or failed to immediately assist to their best ability, they can

be arrested or shot or hung on site. Christ Now, a lot of these conspiracy theories are also heavily antisemitic, talking about like the religion of local officials, like I think like the mayor of Asheville, and just in general, combining these weather control conspiracy theories with FEMA conspiracy theories, saying that like the Jews are somehow controlling all of this, and like that's just a recurring aspect of these conspiracies

that I feel like it is. It is worth mentioning, especially because like the right is like trying to weaponize claims anti Semitism to attack the Democrats on Israel right now, which is absurd because the Democrats are extremely pro Israel, but still their constituents are going to be spreading all these like very unhinge any Smitic conspiracy theories abou Jews controlling weather and using FEMA to hurt Christians in the Appalachians, all that kind of stuff. Now, it's not just threats

against FEMA officials. Death threats have also been targeted against meteorologists, as Rolling Stone documented in an article last week. Quote I've been doing this for forty six years, and it's never been like this, says Alabama meteorologist James span He says he's been inundated with misinformation and threatening messages like stop lying about the government controlling the weather or else

unquote great. A Washington, D C. Based meteorologist named Matthew Capussi said, quote for me to post a hurricane forecast and for people to accuse me of creating the hurricane by working for some secret Illuminati entity is disappointing and distressing and it's resulting in a decrease in public trust unquote,

So like again, like, why is this all happening? A part of it is because the election is upcoming and people are trying to find reasons to think why Trump might lose, and they're saying that the hurricanes are actually a plot by the illuminati to make Trump lose the election via having these storms controlled by Jews and Democrats to target Republican areas. But like, what has changed in the actual ecosystem to allow this to feel like it's

so much worse than what it usually has been. And I've kind of decided that everyone is now Alex Jones, Like everyone has become their own little mini Alex Jones. Platforms have changed in the past eight years to create massive social and financial incentives to go viral, So now everyone is just doing what Alex Jones did, right, Like Alex Jones learned that he could make a profit saying all kinds of crazy shit on air, and now other people have also learned this lesson. This is a part

of I think what's going on now? How does everyone has the capacity to go viral by saying whatever crazy shit they can during a moment of crisis. A few days ago, there was a really good article in the Atlantic by Charles Rozel titled I'm running out of ways to explain how bad this is. This is going to be linked in the sources below. I recommend you give it a read, but I'm going to read a paragraphic from it here. Quote. This is more than just a

misinformation crisis. To watch as real information is overwhelmed by crank theories at public servants battle death threats is to confront two alarming facts. First that a durable ecosystem exists to ensconce citizens in an alternate reality, and second that the people consuming and amplifying those lies are not helpless dupes,

but willing participants. This reality dinfracturing is the result of an information ecosystem that is dominated by platforms that offer financial and intentional incentives to lie and enrage, and to turn every tragedy and every large event into a shameless content creation opportunity. This collides with a swath of people who would rather live in an alternate reality built on distrust and grievance than change their fundamental beliefs about the world. Unquote.

I know, Mia, We've been talking about this misinformation problem in the chat and I know you had some comments you want to you wanted to share.

Speaker 5

Yeah, there is a god. Where did I first hear this? My even a philosophy episode, there's a bunch of philosophical stuff about how ignorance works and about how it's not just like ingnorance isn't just the state of not knowing something. You have to actively create it, right, You have to you have to go out of your way not to seek the information that would that would sort of like you know, cause you to have to know, or cause you to change your worldview, or cause you to like

have to confront what your beliefs are. So people actively sort of construct this this reality around themselves so they don't have to do anything that ever sort of challenges their own views. And this is something that you can see, I mean you see it happening all over the place. And this is one of the things that where sale it it's like gets right. That is important is that like people are active participants in the construction of their

own universes. And now there's a financial incentive, there's a social incentive, and there's also a cognitive incentive, which is that like having to deal with the fact you might be wrong. Aboustling fucking sucks, yes, and is hard, and sometimes you just don't want to know totally.

Speaker 3

Yeah, I mean, and this is something that like myself, Robert, and you, have been talking about increasingly the past few years. It feels like misinformation is an outdated model to understand our current predicament, right, Like misinformation is no longer meant

to like actually change minds or persuade people. It's just a mechanism to construct and reinforce false realities, like in the In the recent Meme of Politics episode, I talked about how AI images of trans athletes or of immigrants stealing pets like these aren't meant to convince anyone of their authenticity, but they exist in lieu of evidence to

help people maintain their reality tunnel. An information researcher at the University of Washington named Michael Kawfield wrote an article earlier this year about how a whole bunch of mega people started to deny the authenticity of those videos of Kamala Harris's rally in that Detroit hangar showing like a massive, massive, huge crowd with Air Force one or Air Force two landing and her getting off with these meg people saying

that this was like ais is fake. There was no way the crowd would be this big, And they invented a whole bunch of reasons for why that this photo must be fake. And this this wasn't fake. This was a real photo. This was easily verified. There's like video evidence from multiple sources showing that this is a real thing that happened. But Cawfield wrote, quote, the primary use of miss information is not to change the beliefs of

other people at all. Instead, the vast majority of misinformation is offered as a service for people to maintain their beliefs in face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Unquote, and yeah, I don't believe in giving this people a degree of passivity, right like, this is an active choice that they are doubling down and reinforcing and creating their

own reality tunnels to live in. And I think the other aspect of this, this is something that Robert was talking with me last night, is like the people also propagating this, the people creating the environments to make this happen, are also willing participants, right like this, this is a big reason why Musk bought Twitter is so that it purposely could turn into the current conspiracy like shit show

that it currently is. Facebook used to be where conspiracy theorists gathered to post their weird boomer opinions, and now it's Twitter alongside just actual, like useful, verifiable information. And now because these two platforms have kind of combined, how we have so much cons piercy content on Twitter, it also just damages the use of Twitter as a platform

to look for real information. And I think you can see the same thing with TikTok, with its very loose content moderation policy regarding factual information and the fact that people use TikTok as its own search engine, creating its own ecosystem of misinformation, fully isolated away from the rest of the Internet. And this project to like wear down collective reality is a long term project by the right.

You could look at the John Birch Society and other anti communist groups from the fifties who used to deliberately put out fake articles about communists infiltrating Fox News and a whole bunch of conservative mass media like talk radio was created at least in part as a reaction to Nixon being forced of office and a lot of the same people funding right wing media are also pushing for

charter schools and attempts to destroy public education. Like it's all an intentional effort to make people's media literacy go completely down the toilet and propagate entire false versions of reality in so of a few rich people. And that's what our current situation is right now. And I don't know if it's a way to stop it. As you heard in that clip from MSNBC, like fact checks don't work anymore, because that's not like the point of any

of this. It's not meant to actually persuade people. It's only meant to reinforce what they already want to believe. So what do you do in a world post fact checking? I don't know, and we're going to have to find out.

Speaker 4

I don't know me.

Speaker 3

Do you have any closing thoughts?

Speaker 12

You know?

Speaker 5

I will say, one of the few things I've ever seen that's gotten someone out of something like this is just sometimes it doesn't always work like this, but every once in a while, you could have an experience that is so cognitively shattering to everything that you'd believed that it just implodes.

Speaker 3

So me, you're advocating to dose your Republican family members with LSD. Is that what I'm hearing?

Speaker 5

Well, No, what I'm advocating is that the people who think that China is a socialist state be sent to China and have to interact with members.

Speaker 4

Of the Chinese Communist Party. Because I have.

Speaker 5

Seen the work. It does work. It can't, I've seen it happen. You can't talk to these people for more than five minutes. But I mean, you know, a sort of more serious note, I mean, this is something that you know, you're trying to fight emotions on a sort of intellectual level, and so like, if you want to deal with this, I don't. I think you have to kind of be working on a sort of like emotional act factor register. And that sucks because it's you know,

it's effectively the abandonments of politics as politics. It's arguably just a complete retreat into fascism. But you know, if you take the sort of undersetting of one of the elements of it as fascism is reducing all politics to aesthetics.

Speaker 4

Right, But we've hit.

Speaker 5

This point where there's no centralizing viewpoint, like central reality tunnel that most people are in, and that's largely partially because of these people trying to destroy it, and partially because the people who were running the mainstream media blew themselves up by lying about rock and then by spending thirty years insisting that like neoliberalism was the greatest economic system ever, and then two thousand and eight happening, and so,

like you know, we're in this position where the people who had built the guardrails blew it up in order to make money and push your political jendas, and now a bunch of other people who want to just destroy everything inside of those rails are just like detonating bombs inside of all of our like psychological conscies.

Speaker 3

I mean, I think the guy who was talking about his stepdad in Asheville is correct. It is a cult, and you have to treat it like you would treat a cult. You can't fact check them out of this. You have to treat them like your friend just joined scientology.

Some people might just choose to completely cut the person off because they find it too dangerous, and that's fine, but I think there should be others that remain as a lifeline to the person, right if they ever one day realize, oh no, I'm in a cult, and I need help. There needs to be a way for them to get out. There needs to be a lifeline for them to escape. And this is the only way that

like quote unquote cult deprogramming has worked. You can point to like people who've gotten out of the QAnon conspiracy theory, like this is the only tactic that actually works. It's reliant on the courtesy of others, right It's it's reliant that you have to put yourself in a degree of danger by maintaining contact with this person that is kind of dangerous because they are in this like very volatile cult.

There needs to be some lifeline for them. And I think that's really the only way that I know of right now that shows a degree of success in getting people out of this like fucked up conspiracy matrix. And it sucks, and it's not easy, and most people promoting like cult deprogramming are hacks with pseudoscience. And it turns out like this is just a very emotional problem and it requires unfortunately emotional solutions that a simple Reuter's fact

check will not suffice. So anyway, that is my rundown on what's currently going on with the her misinformation. It's really bad. Yep, it could happen here.

Speaker 5

It it could happen here. The podcast about things falling apart and how to put them back together again. I'm your host vo Long So for people who listened to yesterday's episode, which I'm hoping is like most of you, Yeah, So yesterday it was a very kind of downer episode on hurricane misinformation and the way that these sort of people construct these reality tunnels, and you know, our have

become active participants in their own sort of propagandizement. And I think we kind of we left on our kind of note of of what you can do for sort of individual people, right, which is the same mechanisms you usually get someone out of a cult, which is you stay with them, you maintain enough personal connection that you can pull them out if they ever want to come out. But that's also not a large scale solution to this problem.

And in order to talk about a large scale solution to both our present social crisis and the ecological crisis that this social crisis is being aimed to sort of cover up. Right now, I'm talking to Rosewater, who's the hub coordinator for the Sunrise Movement's DC Hub and delegate to Sunrise's Delicate Body and also a solar punk organized at Rosewater.

Speaker 4

Welcome to the show.

Speaker 16

Thank you so much for having me on. Yeah, hi everybody, my name is Rosewater and yeah, longtime fan of cool Zone Media. Y'all were my introduction to my current democratic confederalist politics. Oh that's awesome. So it feels like a really fun, like full circle moment to have a chance to be on the pod.

Speaker 5

Yeah, and I'm excited to talk to you. So specific thing where we're talking about is in terms of their being an actual plan for what people are doing like past the next three weeks, like after the election. The biggest thing that has been happening is it's just something we've talked about a little bit on this show is to propose twenty twenty eight general strike. So do you want to talk a little bit about what that is before we get into sun Rises involvements and yeah, the sort of broader story.

Speaker 10

Yeah.

Speaker 16

Yeah, So I feel like most people who follow leftist politics were following the UAW strike against the Big three automaker's last fall, and people found that they found their strike really inspiring and they had like really strong gains that were the sort of straightforward like increase pay like better benefits type stuff, and people were celebrating that. But I would say the two actual most important changes were

not reported on nearly as much. One was they eroded their labor peace clause and they made it possible to go on strike if any of their facilities were closed, which labor peace has in my opinion, been sort of strangling the US left for eighty years.

Speaker 4

Yeah, can you explain what that is for people?

Speaker 5

I think we've usually were broadly talked about as no strike clauses, But yeah, can you explain what that is?

Speaker 16

Yeah, So, labor piece is essentially a truce that was established between the labor movement, capitalists, and the US government where the labor movement gets generalized rights and the US government is like a quote fair mediator between capitalists and the labor movement, and capitalists get a consistent workforce and

peace like peace from disruptions. And this essentially was established between the beginning of World War Two and the end of the Red Scare, when all of the socialists and markets and communists were expelled from labor movement.

Speaker 10

And it felt.

Speaker 16

Like a good deal to a lot of liberals at the time, and a lot of normal rank and file workers at the time, but on reflection, it has really strangled the US labor movement. And so the fact that the UAW eroded their no stripe clause at all is a huge precedent, right, Yeah.

Speaker 5

And this is something I mean, I mean, I remember I don't remember if this actually got into the Labor Notes episode that I did, but I remember at Labor Notes I was listening to people talk about this, and this is stuff that I think the global impact of it has also been really underplayed.

Speaker 4

Like I mean, obviously there was a lot of times you paid.

Speaker 5

This in Mexico, right, because there's a lot of like, you know, the structure of the of the auto industry is such.

Speaker 16

That that's so obvious to me, and I didn't even think about that until just now.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 5

So one of the things that NAFTA did is that sort of right across the border, right, a whole sort of range of factories that are right across the border that operate off Mexican labor, that do some of the auto industry stuff. And so there's always been sort of connections between the more independent unions there and sort of

American unions. But like you know, but this is also struck as being watched really, really heavily in China, which is interesting because like Chinese state unions are a fucking joke.

They're basically not real unions at all. And the extent to which you know, the China's version of the labor piece was also the deal was less like you get rights and we get like labor piece, and more like we're going to just stamp out while working class organization completely and in a way that like was more even more thorough than what happened here where most of it

got wiped out. I think like the breaking of the labor piece and the demonstration that there is another way is something that has reverberated massively across a lot of different places that I don't think both the people organizing the strike or the sort of like press coverage of it has really gotten into sort of how wide the reverberations of this have been.

Speaker 16

Right, I think if it were just eroding that clause alone, it wouldn't be such a signal.

Speaker 6

But yeah, definitely.

Speaker 16

The real thing that caught my attention at first was immediately afterwards they changed the end of their contract date to International Workers' Day twenty twenty eight, and they called on every union in the country and later every union in the world to align with that contract and go on strike with them on May first, twenty twenty eight, And that was the first time, Like, correct me if I'm wrong, that was the first time that a major labor union in America has called for a planned general

strike since nineteen forty eight.

Speaker 5

Yeah, I think that's true, and I think there being an actual plan they're being a way to do what that's legal is a big deal because part of the problem with this is that there's you know, unlike unlike a country like France, American labor law is specifically designed so that you don't have this happen. There's a bunch of legal mechanisms for this, but it's very very specifically designed to make sure that people are not alledged to

solid already strikes. People are not allowed to coordinate the entire power of their action, and this is a pretty promising way around that.

Speaker 16

Yeah, this may be better for later in the episode. But one of the things that we're doing is where in collaboration with the Institute for Social Ecology, doing a teach in on labor peace and the history of general strikes, in the US about a week after the election in order to orient ourselves in whatever new political context exists there.

Speaker 5

But yeah, so yeah, I think that's a jumping off point to get into. I think Sunrise is kind of an unlikely organization that people would think to be getting like excited and trying to get involved in a labor struggle. Yeah, but yeah, let's talk about how Summrise got involved. And I guess first, also, I don't know how many people listening to this know what Sunrise is. And if you do know what Sunrise is, that might also make you war surprise you're getting involved in labor.

Speaker 4

But yes, let's talk about that.

Speaker 10

Yeah.

Speaker 16

So Sunrise is a youth climate movement that has been one of the main advocates for the idea of a Green New Deal. When AOC first came into office and she did that like sit in at Nancy Pelosi's office, like that was a Sunrise action, And we historically have been an org that sort of like tries to bridge the divide between people who are sort of a politically liberal and more radical politics, which is a hard place to be.

Speaker 5

Yeah, someone's got to do it, But we've.

Speaker 16

Really focused on trying to like connect environmentalism with labor. Actually, our main slogans, the main intervention that we've succeeded that has been associating the idea of environmental action with jobs, like green jobs and stuff like that. The problem with that has been one it has been primarily rhetorical, especially after Burnley's loss in twenty twenty. Yeah, and stories matter, but material conditions matter more.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 16

And the reason that we didn't we weren't more materially involved in connecting labor and environmentalism, and by that I mean like connected with unions, is that union's leadership was often very far to our right, you know, especially in the United States, so it didn't feel like it made sense. But as a result, the sort of Biden year have been a time where there's been a lot of internal discussion about like.

Speaker 4

Who we are?

Speaker 16

Are we a radical movement that sort of positions itself rhetorically as more normal in order to bring in like young people.

Speaker 10

Who whose parents.

Speaker 16

Won't let them, you know, join a fight to end all unjust hierarchies, or like sees the means of production, et cetera.

Speaker 10

Like are we a radical movement that.

Speaker 16

Poses normy or are we a like liberal progressive movement that sometimes asks for radical things, and that's been a really big conflict within the ORG these last few years because the path to any climate action, the only path that a lot of people have seen, has been electoral stuff,

pushing politicians and things like that. In a lot of ways, the Inflation Production Act was a result of Sunrises organizing and our work to try and force through the Build Back Better program, but it aligned us with Biden, and from the point of view of a lot of our organizers, like even if it was a victory, it didn't feel like one, and it's certainly not nearly large enough to

actually handle the scale of the crisis. And so essentially the more radical wing of the movement has been winning that fight over the last year two fights, a strong word, has been winning that debate over the last year or two, and specifically this last summer when the American Federation of Teachers joined the general strike, which almost no one has

heard about. But the AFT and their one point seven million members have already decided that they're going to try and joined the twenty twenty eight general strike.

Speaker 10

So it's not just the UAW anymore.

Speaker 4

Yeah, But unfortunately we need to take an ad break and we come back.

Speaker 5

You're going to get to that, because that I think we'll be looked back as one of the pivotal moments of this whole thing that everyone kind of just missed when it happened.

Speaker 16

I completely agree, it's going to be amazing.

Speaker 5

Yeah, okay, little ads unfortunately ads, and then we'll do it by Gold.

Speaker 4

We're back. I don't fight gold.

Speaker 5

At some point I'm going to write the Dope by Gold episode.

Speaker 4

Do you think this is a joke? There is a dope buy Gold app.

Speaker 5

It's big worked on in the in the Meal laboratory that the gold scammer add thing. Okay, back back back to the present or I guess back to the future. I don't know time. Time is falling apart here. But let's talk about the AFT. The American Federation of Teachers, right, and I don't know what they'venounced in terms of this, right.

Speaker 16

So, the American Federation of Teachers, sort of led by the Chicago Teachers Union, the Baltimore Teachers Union, and to a smaller extent, the DC Teachers Union, managed to get through a resolution at their convention that when you read the title, it's very boring it's like on aligning with the UAW. But when you actually click on the document and you read it, it is like class struggle fire Like reading it from beginning to end, I felt exhilaration, Like I felt like a fire explode in my heart.

Speaker 10

It was so amazing.

Speaker 16

And I heard about this the same weekend that we were actually having a climate disaster training in DC. Right, we had about one hundred leaders from across our movement, about half of our staff there, and at the beginning, people were really excited for climate disaster actions responding to

moments like this. Actually, but when we talked about victory, when we talked about and we're going to have like mass mobilization against the climate crisis, where the whole of our society like pitches in to do this, the federal government like does a World War two style mobilization against this destruction, and stuff like that, you could tell that people didn't see a path.

Speaker 10

You could tell.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 16

And so like this news dropping that the teachers were joining a general strike, we're joining mass disruption in some meaningful way.

Speaker 10

It hit us like a bomb.

Speaker 16

It was the perfect moment for it to hit us, because it was like, yeah, if the auto workers are going on strike, and the academic workers are going on strike, and the teachers are going on strike, then why can't the students go on strike? And not only why can't they,

but like, the students must go on strike. And that was sort of the moment that really got our movement from yes, we would like to figure out some sort of different way to get to the mass disruption needed in order to like win serious action on the climate crisis, to like, oh there's a path.

Speaker 10

Yeah, like we see, we see a path.

Speaker 16

It's it's core memory, like if you know, like inside out, like core memory formed that weekend.

Speaker 10

It was it was beautiful.

Speaker 4

Yeah, And I think, what's you know?

Speaker 5

I mean, there's a couple things that are important here, right, but I think it's being underplayed exactly how important it is to have teachers unions being into this, because the thing about teachers unions is that they were an extremely important lever on labor movement because the way the capitalist society is structured, right, is such that most childcare is just sort of like all of that labor is basically

been pushed the teachers, right. And the moment that childcare collapses, right, a bunch of people suddenly also who are not normally on strikes suddenly are not able to do the drugs because they have they have to find some way to

take care of their kids. And so this is this is sort of a massive leverage point and in the same way that like sort of dock worker strikes, or I mean not in the same way, but like in a sense that a strike by these people can shut down way way more labor than just theirs directly, right, this is something that's very important.

Speaker 10

Yeah, yeah, I never really thought about that.

Speaker 16

I've thought about them in the context of like their sort of community pillars, so like when teachers go on strike, they often bring way more community support with them than other types of workers. But yeah, you're totally right, like outside of like the community going with them. Also, that is the primary form of childcare that exists in this country.

Speaker 5

Yeah, and there is something that like teachers organizers, like she's just un organizers are very big ons are emphasizing because they have an enormous amount of power and it's kind of to a large extent, hasn't been tapped for the kinds of sort of mass political action that we're seeing here.

Speaker 4

Like it's one of those things.

Speaker 5

It's one of those sort of leverage points that's always existed, but there hasn't really been the kind of like political will or momentum more sort of organizing capacity to fully mobilize it. And yeah, so I guess I want to move from hereter talking about sunrises involvement in the strike, because I think this part is really interesting both in terms of they're being like both of the times of

strike support and student strikes. So can you talk, I guess about the sort of politics of student strikes and how you see this fitting into the broader thing that's happening.

Speaker 10

Yeah.

Speaker 16

Yeah, So the climate movement sort of had the height of its power in twenty nineteen, I would say, when you had Fridays for Future and like Gretitchenberg, climate strikes

all across Europe and America. But I would use the word strike in quotes because sometimes you had full walkouts, sometimes you had like those sorts of huge things, but most of the time it was students asking permission from authority figures to participate in a rally and things like that, Whereas in a class struggle context, like a strike is people going to the authority figure and saying this is not occurring because we're not going to be here, you know.

Like this has been a critique that's existed inside of Sunrise like from that period for years now, which was one of the reasons why we haven't focused on those sort of tactics as much. But with this sort of moment, especially if we can bring the teachers along, right, being able to have students see their authority figures doing this sort of thing, especially in more conservative areas, while also teaching them how to do it, because in really meaningful ways,

schools are practice work yep. Like they were directly modeled after factories in the eighteen hundreds, so schools are modeled after work. So if schools are practice work, then student strikes can be practice labor organizing.

Speaker 5

Yeah, I mean, and turning schools from sort of laboratories for the reproduction of the class system into laboratories for learning class struggle. It's something that's very very important, both

in the immediate term and in the longer term. Yeah, we've talked a bit about this on other episodes, but like there hasn't been the kind of like generational passed down of organizing skills that we've seen in sort of preview generations and the way honestly, we've talked this, we talked about the center sort of UAW staff episode, right that the way that a lot of these unions are running their staff systems also aren't designed to build up

like continuous momentum for people who learn how to organizing and keep doing it. And this is a way, because it restart that treadbill to create a generation of organizers both in this moment and for the future.

Speaker 10

Yes, exactly.

Speaker 16

And I have had many critiques of my organization, many critiques of my movement, but the thing that has always made me want to like stick around has been seeing the young organizers who like find themselves here. Like the primary person who does our press stuff in the movement is turning eighteen in like three days.

Speaker 3

Wow, they're one of the best organizers.

Speaker 5

I know.

Speaker 10

It's it's wow, it's inspiring.

Speaker 16

But it's something that we I want our movement to do at scale as opposed to like having something like that every once in a while, Like you said, the idea of creating an entire generation, and I'd love to talk about a sort of thought process and plan around that.

Speaker 10

After the ad break.

Speaker 5

Here's some ads when we come back, we'll do things that aren't ads.

Speaker 4

Question mark.

Speaker 5

Oh and we are back to say what better ad transitions?

Speaker 4

They should raise my salary, Davin back.

Speaker 10

Awesome.

Speaker 16

So one of the things that I think is really in terms of a like for us, a stable niche in the movement ecology, is to be sort of a feeder for radical labor in a sort of way, like because one of the things is even if you are radical and you go into the labor movement, oftentimes you are going to be taught practic this is that rely on labor piece in meaningful ways, practices that are going to be going to be really disrupted if labor law weren't a thing and stuff like that, and it's something

that holds back our ability to create a strongly organized working class. But in the context of schools, right, there is no labor law. There is no labor piece in a high school. Right, So as a place to practice the sort of radical class struggle organizing that we're talking about, it's sort of the perfect place because it's a simplified

version of the workplace of like adult reality. There are obviously many other blockages, like students and young people miners have far far less power and far fewer rights than you do once you become an adult, and their family has far more power over them.

Speaker 10

There are huge barriers.

Speaker 16

But in terms of like grounding people in class struggle labor organizing tactics, I'm thinking of things that you can learn about in Jane mclavy's book No Shortcuts and stuff like that. They can learn how to use structure tests and use hard organizing conversations in order to build their power in a specific context and things like that, and

whether or not they actually manage the strike. Right at the end of it, you have an eighteen year old entering the workforce who is a skilled, trained, class struggle organizer who has gained their politics completely outside of the context of labor peace.

Speaker 5

Yeah, And I think that that's one of the important aspects of this. And I think that the second one is something you were talking about earlier, which is sort of bridging the sort of labor ecological divide. And I think that's what happened more, which is encouraging because yes, there's been an enormous effort to make sure this doesn't happen. I mean, I think we've talked about this on this show at some point. I know, I know, Margaret's talked

about it on Cooleeple this cool stuff. But I mean one of the most famous sigence people tried to do this is a iww dow organized it named Jody Berry and she so legally speaking, we don't know who killed her. What I will say is that she was killed by a car bomb that was virtually identical to a car bomb that was built by the FBI that wasedated by the FBI in their bomb like training things like a couple of weeks before. So right, we Jennie widely don't

know who killed her. However, Kamba someone built a car bomb and blew her up in order to stop this from happening. So it is something that is very very obviously seen by the powers that be is extremely dangerous.

Speaker 16

Yeah, in the same way that we know exactly the singular one person who on his own completely killed Martin Luther King with no support from the US government. Yeah.

Speaker 5

Yeah, And like you know, I think this is this is an important moment to script do this because one of the things that the right is trying to do to like capture this sort of like moments of radical labor has been like Oh yeah, all the problems with the UAW are because the government wasn't fortunate to make electric cars. It's like, didn't you know there's very much like an anti ecological angle too, definitely to the way

that sort of republican co option is happening. So it's another thing that we can use a simultaneous tactic for our side and helps defeat a co option attempt.

Speaker 16

In addition to this being a way to like take on the climate crisis in meaningful ways, the climate crisis is also a way where we can like make more

radical demands. This is one of the reasons that I really love Sunrise and ecological like ecosocialist movements in general, because if you ask someone to seriously consider how do we address the climate crisis, and you're not paying them to have a specific answer, which is nonprofit industrial complex things like, if you ask someone to seriously consider what do we need to do in order to address the climate crisis in six months, you have a radical no matter what.

Speaker 10

In my experience, no one who I've ever.

Speaker 16

Talked to who has thought about that question seriously for six months and not avoided it has not come out the other end being like, oh, we need a general strike, we need a revolution, you know.

Speaker 4

Yeah, And so.

Speaker 16

Like being able to bring that exact, that exact analysis into the labor movement I think is one of the things that.

Speaker 10

Can bring back radical labor.

Speaker 16

You talk to labor leaders who might feel comfortable with labor peace and they're like, we can do this, we have time, and you're like, how much time exactly do we have?

Speaker 5

Like really think about it. Yeah, And this is something

that we've seen. I think this is a good place to wrap up something that we've also seen in the way that immediate short term disaster response is happening, where you know, all of these sort of you have like millions of people who are like would not show up to a mutual aid thing are suddenly like out there doing mutual aid and have at least temporarily completely restructured the way the society works because they're confronted with the sort of

immediacy of crisis and also the immediacy of the fact that the way that we have been doing things simply is not actually a functional way to for example, respond to a hurricane.

Speaker 9

Yeah.

Speaker 5

I think there's a bridge there between the sort of immediacy of this like mutual aid, disaster response politics, and the sort of long term goal of trying to actually like have sustained sensative action against the sort of climate devastation.

Speaker 16

Yeah, I completely agree, And this is quite a tangent from the specific topic that we're thinking about. But when I think about democratic confederalist politics, like Roseev was able to take power and have its revolution because the state retreated, and ideally we don't have a civil war that causes the state to retreat. Ideally, Yeah, one thing we do know will happen and is happening right now, is that the state retreats during disasters. The state retreats during climate disasters.

And so if we're prepared to take that temporary mutual aid structures and jump on them in order to create systems like what they have in Rosheva and create build our labor movements, build our neighborhood power, build our direct democracy capabilities, and be able to be like, no, we want to keep these whenever the police come back, whenever.

Speaker 10

Da da da da da.

Speaker 16

Yeah, Like, there's going to be devastation, but there's also a lot of opportunities for creating really really beautiful things.

Speaker 5

Yeah, and I want to close on. There's now a whole argument as to whether or not whether or not Buena Ventura de Rudi, who is one of this very prominent organizers in the Spanish Revolution, ever actually said this, but there was a quote attributed to him that goes roughly, we are not in the least afraid of ruins, Like we are the people who built this world and we'll do it again.

Speaker 10

Wow. That's beautiful.

Speaker 5

Yeah, And I think that's in some sense the attitude that we have to be going into this here right of you know, like the path that we are on now. And this is true even if a movement takes power that is dedicated to actually sort of dealing with the climate crisis, right, the stuff that we have now is normal. This is just what the future is going to be. There's going to be disaster, it's going to be storms,

it's going to be destruction. But again, fundamentally like we are the people who built this world and we can build it again. We're going to have to build it again and we're going to build it better.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 16

Actually that makes me think of this one song that we sing a lot in Sunrise, like we have a really big cat focus on movement song.

Speaker 10

I would really love it if that could be the outro.

Speaker 11

Yeah, there are more waters rising this side I know the side I know there are more waters rising the side I know.

Speaker 16

It is a song called More Waters Rising by Sarah Lynch, who is a movement musician actually from Asheville, North Carolina. It's not fully clear to me right now if they are safe, but we've been singing this song for many years.

Speaker 11

There are more fires burning the side I know, there are more fires burning.

Speaker 10

They will find it.

Speaker 16

It is a song that I think really resonates with the thing that me and Mia just finished talking about knowing what's on the horizon, knowing the ruin that we may face, but also knowing that we're not afraid of that and that we can get through it.

Speaker 11

I will rebuild the mountains the sign no.

Speaker 10

Yeah.

Speaker 16

So I hope that you all find the strength with the song and with these plans to rebuild the mountains.

Speaker 10

Thank you.

Speaker 11

I will wait through the waters when they find their way to me. I will wait through the waters the sign o the sign I know. I will wade through the.

Speaker 8

Waters the sign no.

Speaker 17

Hello, and welcome to the podcast. It's a calm introduction today. It's just a chill one. It's me James and I'm joined by Mia.

Speaker 4

How you doing, Maya not.

Speaker 5

The best, but you know, we're hanging in there. We're defeating We're defeating the illness of the frailness of the human body.

Speaker 17

Yeah, overcoming the surly bonds of Earth, the types of face of God or something.

Speaker 4

That's what Elon Musk does every day. Of course.

Speaker 5

Yeah, when we're doing this at the power of cough medicine, it's going to be great.

Speaker 17

Yeah, yeah, not the kind of cough medicine that you can only buy so much of. Okay, So we're here today, how by cough medicine, to discuss the United Nations inter reinforce in Lebanon. Of course, thing that we haven't talked about before, but the lots of people are talking about on the internet, and I wanted to like just clear up what I think is some misunderstandings or like just a lack of background, sort of explain what they do, Explain who it's composed of, a little bit of history

and sort of its role here. As Israel begins attacking Lebanon as it did Gaza, right and as it has continued to attack the West Bank as well.

Speaker 5

Yeah, and as we're going to get to the end of this episode, they've started making a small push into Syria. So great things happening here. Well, we'll get to that the episode.

Speaker 17

Yeah, yeah, again employing an entirely proprietary understanding of borders and where they are and how they work.

Speaker 4

Maybe they're actually the no borders state. Like and it's Anderson.

Speaker 5

My opposition to the Sykes picode borders is well known, but not like this man.

Speaker 4

It is not like that when I said destroy.

Speaker 17

The borders and Evan diagram the overlap of people who disagree with Sykes pecod it's Mia Wong, the Kurdistan Workers Party in Israel, but like it's very small and they disagree with it for very different reasons.

Speaker 5

Isis too, Yeah that's true. Yeah, yeah, you're really in a good company. Yeah, I remember back in back in like twenty fourteen. So this one's for there's there are a bunch of kids who listen.

Speaker 4

To this show. And by kids, I mean people who weren't like twenty.

Speaker 5

Seven, who don't remember the fact that you could just argue with isis people on Twitter fifteen and like they had a really good pr operation. Oh incredible. Yeah, and one of the arguments who would make was like, well, yeah, we're trying to destroy the imperialists, like psychso borders were like well okay, well, like you're doing this by establishing ISIS.

Speaker 17

It's like really, yeah, there was a wild time when you could argue them, Like you can still argue with like an assadist occasionally on Twitter or like oh sure, but like.

Speaker 5

This wasn't even just like people who support them. This was like actual isis PR guys.

Speaker 17

Yeah, yeah, there was. Their whole job was to argue with you. Yeah, there are some pretty good articles from back in that time period about that if you're too young to remember that. But yeah, So we're talking about UNIFIL today right at the United Nations intermforcing lemanon why are we talking about them? Because the IDF has spent the last week or so edging on just openly attacking them, and it has more or less openly attacked them, but

it hasn't done so in like a complete way. I guess we'll talk a little bit now about some of the things which have happened, because I think we should probably start there, and then what'd explain who UNIFIL are, what they do.

Speaker 4

Whether they're etcetera. A little bit of history.

Speaker 17

So UNIPHIL has called the situation with the idea of extremely serious and a flagrant violation of international law, a phrase which is used every time Israel does anything, because.

Speaker 5

It's true and then nothing happens, and then nothing happens.

Speaker 17

Yeah, and that's I think where we're going to end up today, is that like it's good that they are there, right, like, just to a big picture, this what Israel has done in Lebanon, in Gaza and in the West Bank is it has attacked anyone who is any form of outside observer, right, it has killed aid workers, it has killed journalists, and

it has shot artillery rounds that peacekeepers injured peacekeepers in Lebanon. Right, anyone who can provide any form of independent oversight, who can provide any form of accountability for what they're doing, is in danger.

Speaker 4

And this like is more or less.

Speaker 17

I mean, Rassia does this a little bit too, right, but like among like I don't know what we're supposed to understand. It's relative democracy, but like this war seems to be pretty unpopular even there. And then yahoo, isn't

He's taken a Trump approach to democracy. Let's say, Israel seemingly murdering journalists as part of his policy as a goal of its invasion of Gaza is pretty unique, even by the standards of like other Western militaries who have done some pretty terrible things in the Middle East in the last twenty years. So some of the things they've done in recent days. It's fired smoke grounds about one hundred meters from their compounds, causing uniform peacekeepers to have

to done their gas masks. Fifteen of them were injured. They have like skin irritation for whatever the munition was. I don't quite know what it was. I guess I think expired smokes can do that, and tear gases old tear gas can do that. You're not supposed to use tear gas. Yeah, that's a war crime. Yeah, that's a war crime. It's a warkind that lots of people do. To be fair, like, they wouldn't be the first one I'd seen. But then again, right, like these are people,

are they signature's to a genet of convention? Actually, I don't know that's a good they are. They don't give a fuck. Does it really matter that? Yeah, have a look, I'm interested to know.

Speaker 4

Yeah, they are.

Speaker 5

We have ratified the Video of Convention, which I guess makes them mildly more bigger international law bound in the US.

Speaker 4

The ultimate rogue state, Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 17

I mean it's relis is pretty much a rogue state at this point, right Like that I think is oh yeah, the sort of the frame of analysisue which they should be understood. A rogue state doing violence set alone is wherever the fuck it wants with your taxpayer money, because apparently there's nothing it can do which will cause it to have one centimeter of accountability from the US.

Speaker 13

Yeah.

Speaker 4

Other things they've been getting up to.

Speaker 17

They've knocked down compound walls of the UNIFIL compounds.

Speaker 4

Can we explain what uniform is, by the way, Yeah, sure. So.

Speaker 17

The UNIFIL is the United Nations Interimforce in Lebanon. It's tasked with peacekeeping, monitoring the withdrawal of the IDF. So in theory, the IDEF, as we'll get into, has invaded Lebanon many times in theory since two thousand and six, which was the last time it's sort of invaded Lebanon On Like it's invaded Lebanon on a very small scale.

The hundreds of times, right, like, for instance, stepping across the border, which the border is not entirely agreed upon by its Lebanon, but the United Nations has imposed something called a blue line, which is what it considers to be the border. It's Raeli troops will go across that to trim trees a lot so they can like spy more effectively. Right, they literally have towers and cameras and stuff. But in two thousand and six, people who are old

like myself were members. Last time it did a sort of full scale evasion of Lebanon and on its withdrawal. I'll just go through the history of uniform now and we can talk about the attack later, I guess. So they're supposed to keep the IDF and Husbulla in theory out of an area between the Latani River and the blue line. The blue line is where the UN through the border in two thousand and The idea is that the border was drawn there by the UN to determine

if israel hood withdrawn from Lebanon. That doesn't necessarily mean that all parties are accepted as the border.

Speaker 4

They don't, but it is blue line for now.

Speaker 17

The unfl have been in Lebanon since nineteen seventy eight.

Speaker 4

That was one of the.

Speaker 17

Times when israelevated Lebanon. At that point they were looking for the PO. Yeah, I think the PLO had crossed over from Lebanon to attack and massacre people in Israel. Right at which point Israel then decided to just go hog and in fully invade Lebanon seventy eight, in invaded again in eighty two while UNIFIL were there, and it sort

of bypassed uniful position to that point. And it doesn't mean that people didn't die in these invasions uniform troops of peacekeepers, because they did, right, Like it's a dangerous place to.

Speaker 5

Be Also, like eighty two was like the saber Chatila massacre, like yes, like I was just like hideous Israeli massacres of refugee camps, which the kind of thing that like used to cause more anger in the US that it did now.

Speaker 17

Like yeah, now it's another day that ends in why right, you know the BOMBDA hospital again. It's a year of bombing hospitals now and it doesn't seem to register anymore, doesn't you know, make the headlines? Yeah, in eighty two, Israel bombed compound, and it took Israel until the year two thousand to quote unquote withdraw from Lebanon. And at that point that was when the blue line was drawn. Right during that time, before two thousand, it wasn't just

the IDF that was operating in the area. You also had the South Lebanese Army. I don't like the division of groups in this part of the world exclusively along religious lines, because I think that doesn't entirely explain things always and I think it's like a very analyst brain way of seeing things, like to be like, oh, these are the sites and they do this, the sort of

sunnies and they do this. But the SLA is a majority Christian organization and like it began as its own independent thing in the Civil War Lebanon, but it became more or lesson it's really proxy, right, it's certainly in this area and the UN caused them. It's really different fact forces, which is kind of a bold move from the UN. Actually, like yeah, to just say it. Of course,

saying it and doing it is another thing. But like during the time from eighty two to two thousand, it's relevated multiple times, right, including in nineteen ninety six, when just in the year of nineteen ninety six it's rail fired on uniform peacekeepers two hundred and seventy times. So like, I think that's like every weekday for the entire year.

To put things in perspective, you know, like if they took weekends off, they fired on them every weekday, including shelling a uniform compound after the withdrawal in two thousand withdrawal, uniform stasks of peacekeeping, monitoring the withdrawal and assisting the Lebanese government in restoring it for authority in the area, and a UN mandate seventeen oh one two thousand and six, it's relevated again and eventually it's sort of ground to a stand still that time, ground to stand on top

of a massive pile of civilian bodies, as it tends to do. Right, they bombay route in. I remember that I was I was traveling in the Middle East in.

Speaker 4

Two thousand and six.

Speaker 17

I remember just being like, oh, this is It's one thing to watch war on TV when you're at home, but when you're that little bit closer, and it's people who are like my cousin is there, my brother is there, A good school friend of mine was within Beiru.

Speaker 6

I remember like.

Speaker 17

It was one of my earlier experiences of just being like this is horrific and there's nothing we can do, Like no one seems to care. No one's going to stop them, and like here we are getting on for two decades later, and in fact, no one has stopped them. They're still doing it. Talking of things that no one can stop. Yeah, no one can stop the relentless march of capitalism. And that is why we now have to pivot to advertisements.

Speaker 4

We are back.

Speaker 17

So in two thousand and six, once again Israel killed you and peacekeepers right. Perhaps the most notable incident is when a precision guided bomb struck a bunker and which four UN peacekeepers were sheltering. They'd been shelled fourteen times that day. They had then gone to their bunker right to be protected from the shelling, at which point they received this precision guide a munition which killed four of them.

The peacekeepers were from Austria, Canada, China and Finland. Later the UN sent like a quick reaction for US and a rescue team, which the IDF also shelled.

Speaker 4

Jesus Christ, Yeah.

Speaker 17

I think this may be the time to point out that like I think a lot of people are maybe hopeful, and maybe it's true that like if Israel crosses a line with attacking like European people, that will matter more to the nation that the states and governments of the world than it has done with killing Palestinian civilians. And to a degree, they might be right, like you might. You've had statements from a dozen or so countries that Israel shouldn't be attacking, but they're still getting this fire

hose of money and weapons. Right, There's still been no actual accountability, and I think that will actually start them from doing what they're doing. That's not like the fault of the people on the ground in JUNI fill for the most part. Yeah, but nonetheless it's the case. It was also in that incident in two thousand and six, and I was talking about UNIFIL called the IDF ten

times to ask them to stop shelling. And this bunker, by the way, I'm not talking about like concealed position, right, Like I've been in bunkers and I'm away for work that you might not be able to see very easily. This bad boy is painted bright white with the letters U N on it. Like it's incredibly well marked, it's impossible to miss, you know, it stands out like a sauta. That's where they drop their precision guide ammunition. There was

also an instant in twenty ten. This might be one people remember, and this is one of the tree trimming incidents. So the IDF was trying to trim trees along the blue line and the Levelese military perceived them to have vented Lebanon. I'm sure the IDEAF perceived themselves to be inside Israel. The Idea's understanding of borders, as I said, is somewhat unique, and so Indonesian UNIFIL troops were there. This is a particularly interesting incident. The Indonesian troops seem

to be pretty popular in Lebanon. From what I can tell, there are forty one nations that take part in UNIFIL right, but there are large contingents of Spanish, French, German, Italian, Irish peacekeepers and Indonesian and nepoally peacekeepers as well. The Indonesians are interesting because the government doesn't recognize Israel and so they have no diplomacy like I don't quite know how they manage that.

Speaker 4

Because as we'll get.

Speaker 17

Into beautiful, it's controlled by this thing called a tripartite mechanism, whereby they have to agree on almost everything with the government of Lebanon or the military of Lebanese Army and the IDF, which is it's kind of classic un right.

You have these people there who are positioned to do something really important right now, which is to stop the IDF doing in Lebanon what he's done in Gaza, but they've managed to engineer themselves into a situation where they the IDF also has a veto on pretty much anything

they can do. Yeah, which, like I was told, I spoke to someone who was very familiar with the operations of UNIFIL and they were trying to me for instance, so the IDF had been able to control what munitions they were able to bring into the country Jesus, which matters because, as we'll get into, one of the things that IDF likes to do is like literally knock on their front door with main battle tanks. Right that they actually knocked down the front gate of the uniform compound

with a macarver tank. Certainly like knocking the front gate down with a mccarvery is one way of going about asking yeah, which is insane.

Speaker 5

Yeah, like these people just completely lost their minds.

Speaker 17

Yeah, I mean that's that's the thing, right, Like, I think that's what I want folks to take away from this is that, like it's unlikely that the UN is going to go toe to toe with the IDF at this point.

Speaker 5

Yeah.

Speaker 17

No, that doesn't mean, as I've seen people saying that either they're there to spy for the IDF, they're not. The IDEF keeps killing them, yeah, in quite large numbers, Like I think forty two Irish people have been killed

in the history of uniful deployments. Dozens from other countries too, right, Nor does this mean there's annet Yahu has called them quote hostages of Husbolla, which is kind of a ridiculous claim as many of the things that come out of his mouth are like they're also categorically not that they're hostages of the United Nations. And there's this system that it's backed itself into whereby two Beligerian parties can stop them doing anything they do. So I'll give you an

example about twenty ten. K's right, these Indonesian uniform troops are trying to prevent the IDF from the Lebanese Army firing at each other. The IDEF is entering into Lebanon to cut down some trees, and in the perspective of the Lebanese army, I guess, they started throwing insults on one another, and soon enough they start shooting each other. So two Indonesian peacekeepers. There was a video of this that went around for a while. So the Indonesians decide that basically there's nothing.

Speaker 5

We can do.

Speaker 17

They're going to shoot at each other, and that they decide to withdraw, which probably isn't the best. They're like, you know that they're not keeping peace by force, I guess, but they basically decide there's nothing they can do. They decide to pull out. Local people construct a roadblock to try and make them stay and prevent the IDEA from entering Lebanon.

Speaker 4

This happens a lot.

Speaker 17

This is like you'll see this happening, and this happened in various Like I'm going to get into some other un situations where this has happened, right, But the two peacekeepers get separated from their unit. This is a video that kind of went around at the time. Like I'm sure they're genuinely afraid at that point. Right in the video, they're being helped by local folks and they end up getting in a taxi to like leave and come back to their base, and which like I'm sure they were

in a pretty shitty they were having a bad yeah. Yeah, And to quote Major General A. Lam Pelgamne, who is a French officer who's uniform commander from two thousand and four to two thousand and seven, quite the problem is in such cases as this, if you intervene to protect the IDF, for instance, you know it will be accused by Husbulla or the people of protecting the Israelis and collaborating with the enemy.

Speaker 4

The other side.

Speaker 17

If we do the same with the Lebanese, it's able to accuse the unifor of collaborating with Husbula. So like, yes, it will in the situation that we're seeing currently, Like I think, obviously, like what Israel thinks and says doesn't really have much credibility anymore because they're ruled by this tripartite mechanism.

Speaker 4

There's really very little they can do.

Speaker 17

Yeah, they can fire people if they're fired upon, but the IDEF isn't like engaging them in small arms combat. Right, They're lobbing artillery shelves into their compound. They're firing smoke, they're bashing down their walls with Caterpillar armored bulldozers. The IDF loves an armor bulldozer. Yeah, because I mean you can probably join the dots on why the IDF loves a armored bulldozer. You know that they're in the business of knocking stuff down, I guess, And yeah, going into

urban areas and disturbing people's homes. That's I'm sure other folks have vomorable though this too. Just the IDF is kind of well known for using these things. They shot down an observation tower last week which had two peace keepers in it, and obviously those people were injured because that tower got shot down. But like they're not fully attacking them enough that those peacekeepers would like defend themselves

or their their positions. And I think if people are like hoping that somehow like an engagement between peacekeepers and the IDF will be what causes accountability, I don't think that's going to happen.

Speaker 5

Yeah, And for like for the UN to actually like really seriously intervene in a world like this, it takes one of the UN Security Council members being like we will send our own troops. That's like how the UN got involved in Korea, right, Yeah, Like the US was like fuck it, we're gonna send an army there, and like Russia is not going to like send an army. They are significantly too busy the invading Ukraine and selling

natural gas to Israel to do anything. China is not going to do it because there is real second largest trading partner and they don't give a shit. Like no, no, no, one's actually going to like send troops to like back some kind of like UN mandate to like stop the Disraelis from doing this. Like that's just like not even if the Israelis were to just start killing peace keepers, like it's not going to happen. It's never happened any other time. The Israelis have killed peacekeepers.

Speaker 17

Yeah, like peacekeepers have in other places for yeah that for instance, Irish peacekeepers in Congo, right or the Canadians and indeed like the uniform have engaged in combat before. But I think the chances of them like stopping the IDF invasion or extremely slim.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 5

Like and if you're finding a state that is just directly an American proxy, like there's no way yeah, it's like I don't even think like the seventies n AM, like not a line movement like dominated UN could have pulled something like that off. And like this UN will not.

Speaker 17

Like the UN will issue strongly worded statements. The UN will say it's deeply concerned. And I imagine that like if you're just like a troop and then you're on your unifil. So most of the at least for the Irish, most of people there have volunteered to be there. An Ireland, it's probably among at least among European country is a country that has strongest in its solidarity with Palestine for a long time. I'm sure it fucking sucks. I'm sure

it really blows. Oh yeah, and what the IDEAF has done now is advanced past their like forward positions and the positions where people are being injured by shelling are the headquarters positions, So like if you imagine a triangle with a broad base of it at the front, they're shelling and sort of fighting around the headquarters positions. I'm sure if you've been spending that much of your life as a soldier, you know, like and you're watching something

terrible happen you'd want to fight that. Yeah, you're just sitting around Like that doesn't mean that it's bad that they're there, No, Yeah, Like any form of accountability will make it more accountable than what happened in Gaza, right, Yeah, or at least it will make whatever.

Speaker 4

Happens more visible than what happened in Gaza, and.

Speaker 5

It probably legitimately has slowed the Israelis down, Like, yeah, this is what would happen if there was nothing there and they could just run rough shod, which is you know, get like what we've see in Gaza and what we've seen in the West Bank.

Speaker 17

Yeah, Like, I mean their strategy in Gaza has been first of all, like militarily in air to right, Like they've lost control of areas in their rear because aside from just killing lots of people and flattening cities, it didn't seem to be really doing much in it in like an actual sort of targeted manner, and like, yeah, just the presence of peacekeepers means that you can't just carpet bomb in advance, you know, fireing anything that moves. This area between the Latini River and the Blue Line,

civilians have largely left because there's intense combat going on there. Right, there's Balla present there and obviously the IDEF now present there and they're fighting, so like people can leave, they've left. So having not that civil millions have really slowly is raised down in Gaza. It been a Certainian casualties don't seem to be something they care about. But yeah, having these folks there has stopped them just just carpet bombing the area, which is a good thing. Yeah, something that's

not a good thing. It's our obligation to pivot adverts again, oh, which.

Speaker 4

We will do. All right, we're back.

Speaker 17

Yeah, I guess, like I've seen it from a few people. I think it's either the people who discovered like international politics a year ago and previously like hadn't really thought about it, or from the kind of nativist right the idea that like they shouldn't be there, Like I've seen it from like some kind of nativist type folks about Ireland, like why are the Irish they're risking their lives for the for the Lebanese?

Speaker 4

What the fuck the Lebanese embody for them?

Speaker 5

I have such good news for you about who was training the IRA.

Speaker 4

In the seventies.

Speaker 5

There are a lot of a lot of guys with Irish accents in Becca Valley trading can in the seventies, So you know, they really have actually done things for you. It's one of the things people do this with like the US or there's like one of the Israeli lines like ah, what is one of Palestinians ever done for black people. It's like, well, like a lot of people who got a lot of trading with.

Speaker 18

Yellow in the seventies, like Jenny are for better and for worse, because like there's also groups that they trained that like they probably shouldn't have like a doubt a lot of the groups that became the Fighting Vanguard, which was okay, it's I want to scar the Fighting Vanguard.

Speaker 5

The Fighting Vanguard were like a kind of built wing of the Muslim Brotherhood in Syria. And like a bunch of those Fighting Vanguard guys who survived, so they do an uprising and I think it was eighty four, they like all get killed. Those people who survived go on to be some of the founding members of al Qaida.

So not not always no great yeah, but you know the record like look one out of like twenty of the people you trained, going Haywires not great, but like you know, it's limited nineteen other ones, like it did pretty good.

Speaker 4

Yeah, I think Abdudjulam was in the Becka Valley for a while. Yeah. Yeah, lots of cadres of the of the PKK. Yeah, the PK was there.

Speaker 5

Yeah.

Speaker 17

Yeah, Kurds died actually, like yeah, there's a good article called the Kurds who Died for Palestine I was reading recently because often you'll see this like idea that the Kurds are like inherently like Zionists, and I don't think that's true.

Speaker 5

No, Like yeah, like that they fought at the Eleveties Civil War on the side of the Pls, Like yeah, yeah, they were in because they were in Beca Valley in the Plos trading camps.

Speaker 17

Like yeah, they didn't really have much choice to be back. Israel was coming for them.

Speaker 5

Yeah, and like like is Israel is one of the coaches that helped kidnap the dula Archelote Like yeah, that's really not Presioneds at all.

Speaker 17

No, this is one of those things that you'll see from like I didn't have the bot account, so they're just people with very unoriginal opinions who like they treat kind of Turkish state lines when Israel build settlements in a West Bank and guards that they.

Speaker 4

Do it with steel that comes from Turkey.

Speaker 17

Ye, So yeah, maybe treat those claims with some skepticism. If there's a gray wolf in bioeticularity.

Speaker 5

Yeah, there is a broader, more serious point there, which is that like the actual physical resources that the Israelis use to physically build the occupation, right, those all come from places and it's not all US, And I think people have this image that like, well like and it is true the US, it's an unbelievable amount of money to Israel, but there's a lot of places where the Israelis are getting their ship form, right, like these really tech sector in the Israeli tech sector is one of

the cores of the Israeli economy, and it is one of the cores of the Israeli occupation is almost entirely fueled by like semiconductors and stuff that they buy from China. Right, that's where all the physical technical infrastructure of this stuff

comes from. I talked about it before about like Russian natural gas, Right, all of these countries, who will you know, talk all of this shit like and the un about Israel, like people's real political stances and what they're willing to send it to your really to the Israelis are not the same thing at all. And if you want to actually gauge how the occupation functions, it's because a lot of countries that nominally will be like, oh, we oppose

it's really occupation. Well, didn't just send them all the fucking resources that they need to do the occupation.

Speaker 17

Yeah, and they don't get any heat unless it's like literal bombs bullets.

Speaker 5

Right, yeah, and even and even then, like lots of people like yeah, there's plenty of non us. I mean, the ukata's a lot of this too, right.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 17

One of the things that IDF likes to do they haven't mentioned yet, it's mock air assaults of unifual positions, is christ Well, they'll fly in like a bombing formation just basically, I guess hayes them. I can't really think of a way to describe it, right, they's terror like it's a terror campaign. Yes, it's a very clear indication that,

like any day, we could wipe you off the map. Right, And some of the uniform assets seem to have anti aircraft some of them don't, but even still like they you know, a determined attack by the idea of they've

been in big trouble of course. So right now, I guess the situation we're in, according to the person who spoke to is that these positions Israel has advanced passed, like the peacekeepers there are still in their positions, right they have using their own funds, which I presume means like funds from the states of which they are part, fortified their positions and improve their positions like.

Speaker 5

With their own Jesus Christ.

Speaker 17

Ye, Well, the UN is supposed to provide positions for them. It's supposed to provide their rations, and it's supposed to provide weapons and vehicles for some other states that like kind of aren't up to I guess a modern standard. That's incidentally why you don't see it so much here, But in other parts of the world you often see troops on peacekeeping missions who like perhaps you haven't heard of that country's military before, right, Like, it's very common

for like. Also, I think it is better that there are African peacekeepers in Africa than like white European peace like I think for historical and very obvious reasons.

Speaker 5

I will mention one of the places that sends a lot of piece of replay to places in nepoll And the record that police peacekeepers that are get are being set by booist governments.

Speaker 4

Are yeah good, not great. Yeah, you can google that.

Speaker 5

We've talked about this in Brazil at length, like sorry, Brazilian Nepolice cooperation in Haiti's shit show.

Speaker 4

Yeah, no, it has not been good for the Haitian people.

Speaker 17

I will say, like one of the things that happens a lot is the UN pays them a certain rate for peacekeeping I guess or UN conversate certain right, which is often a lot more than those militaries pay their soldiers. So it's like a source of income for the military view see what I mean, They can like skim off the percentage. But these guys have at their own expense, fortify their positions at their own expense, supplied themselves with rations so that they've they've bought a ton of food

and water. It's what that means in like non nerdy terms. So they're pretty well stocked up, right, Like they're bunked up.

Speaker 5

Yeah, But it's also it's also like this US operation is being equipped in the same way that like American school teachers make sure their classrooms have pencils.

Speaker 4

That's a perfection.

Speaker 3

What the fuck is going on here? Yeah, Jesus Christ.

Speaker 17

Maybe maybe the state not the best way of organizing human society, is what people are saying.

Speaker 5

Look, we need to fuse the two and finally bring about my lifelong dream of armed teachers union pickets.

Speaker 4

Yeah, bring it back to like Blair Mountain, but for teachers.

Speaker 5

Yeah, Look, don't armed teachers armed teachers unions. Yeah, we can finally get bipartisan agreement on Yeah, they're pretty well hold up, like like American preppers dream of themselves being right surrounded by ammunition and marise, but at some point they're going to run out of food and water, and at some point that means that they're going to have

to resupply. Right now on I'm just going to check the date very quickly, And UNIFIL is on Twitter by the way, if you want to do you want to follow them there they kind of give a daily update on what's going on. On the thirteenth of October, UNIFIL said that the IDF sold just stopped a critical uniform logistical movement, which could well be like an attempt to resupply of one of these places. Right, at some point they're going to have to resupply them, either by air

or by land. And I think that is when we will most likely see like exactly how hard the IDF wants to go against like in this case trucks full of MRIs right, Like, yeah, previously they've got in standoffs, like a few years ago the French. The French have done some interesting stuff as part of the UNIFILM mission, Like in twenty ten they kind of went on a unilateral operation without approval to look for her body. Yeah, not a great move.

Speaker 4

Yeah, it's wild.

Speaker 5

French forces at level not such an interesting thing because it's like you have inside of the French soul is warring at all times, two forces.

Speaker 4

It is it Receisy said, it's.

Speaker 5

Like they because they hate Buzzled so much, but they are also so anti Semitic.

Speaker 4

This is an all times waring French.

Speaker 17

The nature of the French soul, the two wolves that live inside the French person. Yeah, well, in twenty ten, they were their Islamophobia was winning. They specifically they used sniffer dogs in people's homes, which Jesus is very disrespectful in culture in that part of the world.

Speaker 5

I mean also here I would be really pissed off if fucking a bomb squad like getting started running sniffer dogs around my apartment for sure, get out going through private property and doing things that they were They're supposed to operate with the Lebanese armed Forces, right, so they patrol alongside them. But in this case, the French decided they were just going to send it solo and obviously pissed a lot of people off. And it's really interesting

to see people address their concerns. But was not interesting, I guess, but people address their concerns specifically with the French element of uniform rather than other elements of uniform, like for instance, Indonesia and seem to be pretty popular. The Indian element of unifil teaches weekly yoga classes, which are apparently becoming more and more popular.

Speaker 4

I've seen a bunch of videos.

Speaker 5

There's like like tiktoks of libertyes people in that area who speak English, and they all speak English with a Maris accent.

Speaker 4

Oh yeah, because so long it's great.

Speaker 17

Yeah yeah, yeah, Well the Irish have been there since seventies, right, Like I know of people who have two generations of their family who.

Speaker 4

Have been peacekeepers there.

Speaker 17

Yeah, I think for those people like it probably like over time being down, I'm sure they do develop a personal connection to the people who you know that they're around and the people whose communities they are protecting, and and like, I genuinely feel like it's probably really a shitty situation to be in.

Speaker 4

Yeah, being sort of locked in your base.

Speaker 17

That doesn't mean they should leave, right, I just want to end with like, and I know we want to talk about the Gourden Heights to twenty thirteen. Actually Austria pulled out of the Gourden Heights and Ireland had to deploy a bunch of people really quickly to.

Speaker 4

Kind of cover that area.

Speaker 17

But if we look at like streperlinka right where the UN could have prevented a genocide and did not. Yeah, the UN forces there withdrew, they surrendered and places were captured by the Serbs and then used as collateral to stop the UN doing anymore to prevent what and like some of the most horrific acts in human history happened. It's from Benika, right, just just disgusting, terrible stuff, and like hopefully the UN has learned from that hopefully, like

individual nations. I think like in that case, it wasn't so much the UN as a whole. It's like the specific chain of command of those peacekeepers.

Speaker 4

I think they were.

Speaker 5

Dutch well, And like it's it's worth noting in that point too that like part of what's going on there is that like a lot of the European countries until well into the genocide were basically pro served because they saw the Serbs something that could like just cleanse the Muslims from Europe.

Speaker 4

Is like this is the explicit language that they're using, right.

Speaker 5

Yeah, And this is this has always been a problem with with UN missions, is like well half the time we try to stop a genocide, there's like some faction of the UN that's like no, this one fucking rips and yeah.

Speaker 4

Yeah, right, this is the end. But they the bad guys though, aren't they.

Speaker 17

I think it's good that they have like Muslim countries within their yeah, their group, And like I think it's probably good that the Irish of their in large numbers because as a country they have been better on on Palestine than almost anyone else in Europe.

Speaker 4

Yeah, it turns out being a quality.

Speaker 17

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, like yeah, that's on that's on us as the British.

Speaker 4

But it's better that they're there, I guess.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 17

And like no one talked about them for the past ten fucking years, but like the most important time for them to be there is right now. Yeah, and like even if they're not fighting, I think they serve a useful role in like it's the only accountability mechanism.

Speaker 5

Yeah that Israel can't just destroy. There are definitely people who are alive right now who would not be if if Irish were not there.

Speaker 17

Yeah, and like I know, we have these number of virus diistions. Like I know, it sucks it's your family member who's stuck there, like and like it feels like they're not able to do anything and they're just stuck there as like collateral as a bargaining chip.

Speaker 4

I don't know, but like, yeah, I.

Speaker 17

Think overseas military deployments by European countries go. It's one of the more defensible ones. You know, it's one of the ones that has stopped civilian lives being harmed. H And yeah, I think like the idea that they should leave, which I've seen people trotting.

Speaker 10

Out like that.

Speaker 17

No, they shouldn't like when they leave. It's just like Gaza all over again. It's just Israel copet boling civilians and talking of copy boying civilians. I guess made you want to talk about like Israel has decided to invade another country.

Speaker 4

So okay.

Speaker 5

So one of the things that's happened, and this has gotten almost no attention, I think because because the Syrian government does not want to admit that this is happening, and they're not doing anything about it because they don't give a shit.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 5

So Israel has been occupying the Syrian goal On Heights since nineteen sixty seven. Yeah, they've militarized it. They've just been holding the territory for I shouldn't have tried to do math and a.

Speaker 4

Fly like over half a century, sixty years. Yeah.

Speaker 5

And one of the things that's been happening recently is there had been there had been like oh I say, describe as like a Russian nituring force sort of on on the border of the sheer knock about goal On Heights and the sort of like southern provinces is Asyria. Yeah, and the Israelis seem to have just apparently they've done they've done this before where they'll just like go in and buldoze a bunch of farmland.

Speaker 4

Yeah. I think this is on the video species of.

Speaker 5

D mining, right, Yeah, sort of. Yeah, I mean it's it's always been. It's always been pretty clearly like a land grab kind of thing.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 5

But normally what happens is they go in, they buildoze a bunch of places, and they pull out.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 5

So somehow they have surpassed Turkey as the number one bulldozer of olive fields, which is sort of staggering, like they they love that ship. Yeah, but this time they've set up seems like a road project. Although given everything that we've been seeing about the sort of like rise of the concept of greater Israel where they just start invading everyone and radially outwards from Israel extremely longing, they've

they've buildozed these places. But now and they're but they've set it up like barred wire like down the new territory, which seems like they're just actually a time we can do annexation. Yeah, and that's really alarming because I mean, like the Syrian government isn't going to do shit about this, right, like you know, Israel has bombed Syria a few times already.

Speaker 4

Oh yeah, they pumped Syria last time. I was saying, the.

Speaker 5

Syrian gum doesn't give a shit, right, They're they're too busy, like like they have courage to kill, Like they don't have time to be dealing with fucking Israel here.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 5

Yeah, but there's been an explicit is really pushed like even further out from the goal on heights, and I think we're just going to see this intensify as as the most sort of like drained settler factions in Israeli politics gain more and more power and the sort of like frankly like very American, we must push our borders, we must like push into new frontiers and sees more land like cycle sort of perpetuates itself.

Speaker 17

Yeah, and a lot of the people doing the settling have literally come from America to do the settling. Yeah, pushing out in the Golan it's bad, Like yeah, I know it's Reel claims it was attacked by Katiba's Bulla in the Golan Heights at last week, and katipaz Bula has denied that they glean it. Israel fabricated it. Nie of those people are people I particularly trust.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 5

Well, and this is also one of these funny ones where it's like the Israelis are denying that they've done this, I think, and the Syrian government is also denying that they've done this, but like everyone who's there is like, well, obviously they did this, Like yeah, and like, I don't know why it's real keeps for wanting to open up your fronts. I mean they yeah, like you said, it's

set like Colone list logic, I guess. But I do think that like the continuation of this like full scale war generates consent for the government as it exists in the moment that it stops, and that the government's legis will collapse there. Yeah, but yeah, pushing into Syria opens up a whole other world of shit, shit, yeah, the

worst stuff. Yeah, there's a nation on earth who really doesn't need anyone else trying to fucking And it's not that Israel has not been killing Syrians for a long time as well, has been lobbing munitions into Syria for a long time, and it's increased.

Speaker 4

In the last year.

Speaker 17

Yeah, Like, yeah, you know, I was in Syria on October seventh last year and pretty much. Sooner as it's began responding to that attack, it began responding in Syria as well, but a ground operation is a whole different thing. There ain't no UN peacekeepers in Syria, and yeah, that could be very bad.

Speaker 5

So yeah, so we'll keep you updated on that story as it presumably continues to get worse, because yeah, everything seems to and like, I mean, I will say, Okay, so today Biden made a thing that said, if Israel hasn't resolved to the meditarian situation in thirty days, he's getting cut off aid.

Speaker 4

But like that's not going to happen.

Speaker 5

Like it's simply not like everyone says that all the time.

Speaker 4

I mean, how many lines have they stepped over?

Speaker 17

Right?

Speaker 5

Like how many An American red line is a line that when you step over and nothing happens.

Speaker 4

Yeah, that's that's that's just that's just how it works, right, like it works in Syria. It has been multiple times.

Speaker 5

Yeah, I mean there's there's there's this old Russian joke about China's Final Warning where because like if throughout the entire seventies, when like there's all this boarders's going on, and even like the sixties and in the fifties sixties, like Chinese officials feel like this is China's final warning,

Russia must stop and nothing would happen like this. This is where we're at with like the Democrats and being like, ah, Israel must stop doing whatever the fuck's no, they're not going to do anything, like they don't give a ship.

Speaker 17

Yeah, no, we've cried wolf so many times. It's clearly not an issue that Harris feels like it's going to lose her the election. Yeah, and then whoever wins, we got four more years of turning a fire hose of money and weapons on children in Palestine and apparently Syria and Lebanon as well. So yeah, it's great, It's all great. I'm afraid. Yeah, this this has not been a good

news episode. I hope people who have family I have friends who are in Lebanon, like, I hope people who have family there were doing.

Speaker 4

Okay, I know it sucks, Hello.

Speaker 13

And welcome to It could happen here. I'm here with Mia. How you doing.

Speaker 5

It's abominably early, which not even podcasts early. It's like eight am here, so it's gonna be where we're We've done the caffeine.

Speaker 3

We're holding on for dear life sake.

Speaker 6

I feel you. I feel you.

Speaker 13

I have to ask, have you noticed that the continents are dripping a little bit?

Speaker 4

Continents are dripping?

Speaker 6

Yeah? Yeah, And I don't mean like blin out.

Speaker 13

I mean like if you take a look kind of map and you assume that North is up and South is down, it find it kind of looks like our major landmass is melting a little bit.

Speaker 5

Oh you know, Okay, now that you say it, I can kind of see it.

Speaker 6

H Yeah.

Speaker 13

This is a concept known as continental trip. And I'm not tripping on anything. I'm not the first person to notice.

Speaker 4

Incredible.

Speaker 6

You can look it up.

Speaker 13

There's a whole Wikipedia page of what's seen in everything, and well, South America is alongside India. They're kind of seen as the quintessential examples with this continental trip. And this is a very odd way that I've decided to segue into the next nation in our exploration of Latin America and anarchist history. It's right to the east of Chile and south of every other country near Temisphale.

Speaker 6

That is, of course, the Argentine.

Speaker 13

Republic, more commonly known as Argentina, which is derived by the way from the Latin word for silver. My name is Andrew Sage. You can find me on YouTube as Andrewism And thanks to the scholarship of Chuck Moss, Jeffrey la Focad, and Ahille Capileetti, we're going to take a journey into the history of anarchism in Argentina.

Speaker 5

Also got to do the shout out for Calculates Anarchism in Latin Erica. Great book, also great cover, got a big bird on it.

Speaker 4

Good stuff.

Speaker 13

Oh yeah, shout out of course, of course. So I suppose the best place to start us in the beginning. So there's this thing called the Big Bang, right.

Speaker 5

Universe expanded extremely fast like Pico second.

Speaker 6

Large expansion of matter.

Speaker 13

And yeah, but seriously, Argentina has been peopled since the Paleolithic period. In particular, we find evidence of ancient people's butchering the meat of an armadillo relative as early as twenty one third years ago geese.

Speaker 6

So you know, we've been around.

Speaker 13

We've been around from then on as far as we can tell for now, at least, because you know, the timelines are constantly getting updated with new information, as it should be. The area to be known as Argentina was pretty sparsely populated by a variety of divus cultures with diverse social organizations including forgers and farmers. To take a

long and largely unknown history of indigenous co existence and conflicts. Short, people continue to live and the earth continue to spin for the next few millennia until a few ships on the horizon spell doom for all to see. These are, of course, the Europeans who first arrived in the region with the fifteen oh two voyage of Amerigo Vespucci, with the Spanish navigators Juan Dias de Solis and Sebastian Cabo in particular visiting the territory in fifteen sixteen and fifteen

twenty six, respectively. Then in fifteen thirty six Pedro de Mendoza founded this small settlement.

Speaker 6

Of Buenos Aires.

Speaker 13

Maybe you've heard of it, but it was a band that in fifteen forty one thanks to continuous indigenous resistance, and had to be refounded in fifteen eighty. As for the rest of would be Argentina, the Spanish Empire that was running most of the continant was busy lutin the silver and gold mines in Bolivia and Peru, so Argentina was kind of seen as a backwater.

Speaker 6

It wasn't as much of an interest.

Speaker 13

By comparison, Argentina stayed under the Viceroyalty of Peru and to the creation of the Viceroyalty of the Rio de la Plata in seventeen seventy six, with Buenos Aires as its capital after two failed the British invasions in eighteen oh six and eighteen o seven, and as you could see, the British and Argentina have.

Speaker 6

Had a bit of a scuffle for some time now.

Speaker 13

The Buenos Aires capital would be the stage of revolution, as the eighteen ten May Revolution replaced the Vice roy Baltasar Hidel Gorya Cesnios with the First Junta, a new government made by and for the locals, and then there was a royalist counter revolution, some anti colonial alliance with the then Spanish Philippines, divisions between centralists and federalists over the newly forming Argentine state, proposals to crown a supper Inca as a monarch of an independent Argentina, and the

official declaration of independence for a republic on the ninth of July eighteen sixteen. Just to go back a bit to be clear, there is an alternate history scenario in which Argentina was briefly or continuously under an InCor monarchy that would have ripped literally. I believe it was a cousin of Tupa Kamaru. The third incredible was being considered for the position incredible, incredible, incredible. Indeed, see, people tend to see South America as just like you know, it's

just the extra continent. I mean, I don't think people think about how much has gone on down there, or rather it's not really present in the English speaking world's imagination.

Speaker 6

You know.

Speaker 13

We tend to focus on more of the Northern hemisphere side of things, which have a specific region we find ourselves in, whether it be the Caribbean or Australia and New Zealand, UK US Canada. We tend to think about English speaking colonial history. But Latin America had a lot going on in its time. I mean, come on, they

had an alliance with the Spanish Philippines. Yeah yeah, so, I mean civil war go per, as they say, between the centralists and the Federalists, and that will continue for a while after the Declaration of the Republic in eighteen sixteen, and it was only resolved in eighteen thirty one with

a Federalist victory. Basically, it was a division over how they should organize the state, whether it should be in a federal manner or more centralist unitary manner, so the Federalists, one which would lead to the war the Confederation between eighteen thirty sixty eighteen thirty nine, the establishment of the Constitution in eighteen fifty three, and a temporary secession of Buenos Aires which was forced back into Argentina by eighteen

sixty one. And as in much of that in America, anarchism would establish itself fairly early on thanks to the waves of migration from Europe, and particularly from France, Italy and Spain.

Speaker 4

There are so many Italians, so many, just.

Speaker 13

An absurd amount of Italians. These folks fled political repression and poverty in their home countries. Refugees from the Paris Commune, and anarchist literature from the aforementioned lands would find themselves in the streets of Buenos Aires City and the countrysides of Buenos Aires Province.

Speaker 6

They circulated anarchist ideas.

Speaker 13

Through group meetings such as the group Elmeserabeli in the port city of Rosario, and publications like the Rivolte, which was founded by Kropotkin all the way back in Switzerland. Kropotkin's Words of a Rebel would also make frequent appearances throughout Argentina, and his Conquest of Bread received a translation

by Catalan carpenter Juan Villa. As with the splits internationally, the First International's local section in Buenos Airis, which was founded in eighteen seventy two, would split between the supporters of Marx and the supporters of a Cunan. The former

were predominantly French, the latter predominantly Spaniard an Italian. Three decades of substantial migration started in the eighteen eighties, which sparked significant growth in the anarchist movement as the migrants found Crussian economic deprivation and repressive governance where they'd hoped they'd find prosperity and liberty. Over three million people arrived, leading to the country having a foreign born population of

thirty three percent by nineteen fourteen. Nowadays, as in much of the world, unfortunately that once foreign born population some percentage of them, and now unfortunately anti I migration, yeah, and violently. So it's a cruel irony that we find ourselves with just mere decades ago. Their own ancestors were migrants.

Among the migration wave came the likes of Hector Matte, an Italian anarchist who helped publish a Socialista, which is a weekly people and of course believe it's or not, the one and only Era Kamana Testa, who keeps making guest appearances in these last American anarchism. He's just like all over the places, traveling everywhere. If I recall correctly, he made an appearance in Cuba. He made an appearance in the Egypt episode as well. Yep, she just keeps showing up.

Speaker 5

He's really truly a globe trotter in a mold that we haven't really seen.

Speaker 13

Hey, I mean move aside football, you know he's the real mister worldwide. So at Akman test He actually fled Italy in eighty eighty five after escaping imprisonment, and he helped establish the Cecuilo the Studio Socialists, where he and others gave public speeches promoting anarchism, and he worked to organize a society dad Cosmopolita de Obreros Pandero's an anarchist Baker's Union. I didn't know he could bake, maybe he could make, maybe he couldn't. Maybe he was just there,

you know, helping them set up. But in my head, I'd like to imagine that he was pretty good at bacon, bread and making cookies.

Speaker 5

You know, I'm pretty sure it was like an ice cream salesman too at one point, So I might be getting that confused with like some other anarchists who was going around everywhere who was also selling ice cream.

Speaker 6

You know, I wouldn't be surprised.

Speaker 5

I have vague memories of there being a story about like him having an ice cream cart and trying to make money and he couldn't do it because he kept giving ice cream the children.

Speaker 6

I think I remember that story. I think it's so bag I had a video on it.

Speaker 13

You know that those ads used to show on TV A couple like about a decade ago, most interesting than man in the world.

Speaker 6

Yeah, he was based on Aurkromat. Yeah.

Speaker 17

So.

Speaker 13

Maltessa later returned to Europe in eighteen eighty nine, Yet he left a lasting legacy in helping to organize workers and sow the seeds for a powerful anarchist movement in Argentina in the early eighteen nineties, the anarchist paper El Perscuido became one of the most popular and prominent voices

of anarchist communism in Argentina. Despite ongoing repression and government censorship, the anarchist press continued to expand during this period, with publications like La Vois de la Mochere and Anarchist Feminist People emerging in Rosario. The eighteen eighties and early eighteen nineties also involved significant internal debates, particularly around the role

of workers unions and revolutionary tactics. Some groups embraced anarchist cynicalism, while others believed smaller affinity groups as catalysts of social revolution with a way to go. While in the midst of a massive rapid industrial growth and deal with the worst than economics that for the working class, such a society was ripe for transformation of the anarchist variety. Initially, the anarchists have been focused on countercultural concerns, particularly in

the field of education. Where As their ranks swelled in number, the stage was set for the debut of a mass anarchist movement among Argentine workers. In eighteen ninety seven, the anarchist workers were found lab protester Humana, later shortened to Lap Protester, which would become an enduring anarchist paper throughout Latin America. But the anarchists didn't just stick to papers though.

In nineteen oh one, anarchists were instrumental in the founding of the Argentine Workers Federation of the FOA, which is Argentina's first labor federation. Federation was founded in a congress that assembled some fifty delegates representing thirty to thirty five workers organizations from both capital and interior. The aim of the federation was an entity that included all workers without regard to their races or beliefs, based on a solid

foundation of direct action and economic struggle. Though initially including Marxists, those would later depart to found the General Workers Union or the UGT, which was more meanable to party interests, of course, which left the FAA in anarchist hands. The FAA stood at the forefront of the struggles, advocating for higher wages and better working conditions. At the time, the typical workday was ten hours or more, with wages barely

covering essential needs. Strikes broke out across industries with notable successes. Painters and Marder Platter secured an eight hour workday and dark workers in minos aires one and nine hour workday, along with a wage increase. But despite the oppression, the workers movement continued to grow stronger. The FOA's membership surged, with forty two unions and over fifteen thousand members in nineteen o three, rise into sixty six unions and nearly

thirty three thousand members a year later. In nineteen o four, at its fourth congress, the group was re named the Regional Workers Federation of Argentina or the FARE or FORA. The reasoning was ideological. By adding the adjective regional, it made plain that Argentina was not considered a state or political unit, but a region of the world which workers

struggled for their liberation. This fourth congress also approved of solidarity pacts that proclaimed the establishment of a class less society with neither state nor private property as the ultimate aim of their struggle. The anarchist influence was clear, but it gets even more explicit in the following year. The UGIT had been subordinated to the Marxist Socialist Party, but even their third congress in nineteen oh five had a

syndicalist emergence to preferred workers associations to political parties. Basically, even the non anarchist workers organizations would be an influenced by the anarchist wave, so much so that the UGIT wanted to form a solidarity pact with Fura. The anarchist and four didn't quite trust the parliamentary socialism of the UGT. Still, they did work with them to call a general strike in nineteen oh seven and saw a diarity with cart drivers in Rosario, joined by some one hundred and fifty

eight thousand workers from around the republic. That strike ended in victory for the workers. In nineteen oh five, two years before and as fifth Congress, Foura made its commitments to revolutionary anarchist communism explicitly known quote the advice and recommend to all our followers the broadest possible study and propaganda with the aim of insterning workers economic and philosophical

principles of anarchist communism. This education, not content with achieve in the eight hour workday, would bring total emancipation and consequently the social evolution we pursue end quote four. I was among the largest federations of workers organizations and it

was officially anarchist communists. The nineteen oh sixth ninety o seven general and tenant strikes gone a greater favor, and in response, Whenasyrius police head Colonel Falcones sware to finish or off the anarchists nineteen oh seven saw for Her and Ugit attempt a merger, but since the majority sought adherence to anarchist communism, the merger could not be achieved. For Her was militant and effective in achieving many of its schools, including wage increases, reductions in the length of

the work day, and various rights of association. Port workers, Crown transport workers, seamen's unions, bakers, metal workers, construction workers, and ship workers were all prominent in the federation and were well positioned to paralyze the Argentine economy and win

their demands. In the first decade of the twentieth century, these unions led six general strikes and many more partial strikes, and women were more involved than in any other radical movement of the time, taking part in consumer boycotts and rent strikes as well. But the anarchists knew the ruptures in the capitalist economy wouldn't be enough. It could never be enough to merely confront the system and refuse to

corporate the system as it is. The social revolutionals demands consciousness, solidarity, and the prefiguration of an enlightened progressive society in social organizations. Thus, anarchists engaged in counter culture, multiple papers in multiple languages, theater and poetry, may day marches, social centers, popular education centers, popular libraries, and discussion circles. All of these efforts were ceded throughout the cities and linked to various unions to

create a veritable and dynamic network of revolutionary causes. And since the government understood the anarchist threat, they tried their best to raise the cost of revolutionary activism. The actions included petty police harassment, the humiliated and inconvenient searches and protuitors demands identification, which were a familiar experience for the

anarchist militants. There was also without law and of radical publications, the suppression of the right to public assembly, mass arrests, martial law declared for a total of eighteen months between nineteen oh two and nineteen ten, and of course outright violence to the police, the army and other formal forces. In addition to thugs acting on their behalf. The governor also attempted to undermine the anarchist movement through legislative means.

The Resident's Law in nineteen oh two granted the government the right to deport foreigners that are deemed undesirable without trial. After the law had been in effect for a few years, four are called a general strike.

Speaker 6

Against its oppressive conditions.

Speaker 13

For as leadership condemned the law as a violation of human rights labor it as a tool where the state to suppress free thoughts.

Speaker 6

And working class movements. The government did not budge.

Speaker 13

On May Day nineteen oh nine, police violently attacked a peaceful protest organized by transport workers inists, killing eight people and wounded many others. Colonel Falcone, the recurrent villain who ordered the attack, later became the target of a retaliatory bombing by young anarchist Simon Radowitski in November.

Speaker 6

Nineteen o nine.

Speaker 13

This act of defiance shook the whole country. In the meantime, the anarchist cause also resonated internationally. In response to the execution of Francisco Ferrer, a Spanish educator and anarchist fora led a series of strikes in Argentina, joining global protests against his death.

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Nineteen ten marked.

Speaker 13

Argentina's preparations for the centenary celebrations of its first national government, portray itself as a beacon of prosperity.

Speaker 6

But oh, here come.

Speaker 13

The workers with their unrest and protests to sour the vibes and demand the release of political prisoners and the.

Speaker 6

Abolition of the law of residence.

Speaker 13

Naturally, the government responded by declaring a state of internal war, arresting hundreds of anarchists, including four leaders, and imposing extreme censorship and restrictions and civil liberties, shut downs of publications,

and the declaration of a state of emergency. The government also introduced the Social Defense Law, which levied a series of penalties against anarchist activities, specifically as a centennial celebrations unfolded, Argentina had transformed into a heavily militarized state, with more than two thousand anarchists arrested or deported. So much for a grand celebration of their free democracy. Despite the repression,

the workers move once continued to grow. Forest general strikes forced the government to make concessions and release jailed workers, but divisions began to appear within the movement after deal with so much repression for their erratical ideas. A split occurred in nineteen oh nine with the formation of the syndicalist group CORA, which adopted much of for US structure and retained some anarchist ideas, but leaned awards a less

radical approach, hoping to be less of a target. The anarchist took yet another hit when in nineteen twelve the Science Penier Law made voting secret and obligatory, thus making anarchists abstentionism as a tactic illegal. The range of possible actions was being intentionally closed. While they were these external pressures, anarchists also had to deal with the pressures from within the workers' movement by even more folks who wanted to

compromise the revolutionary goals. Another split between the synicalist anarchists occurred to the for US ninth Congress in nineteen fifteen.

Unions were increasingly led by reformists, social democrats, and uncommitted anarchists, which led to the thesis of a neutral cyndicalism focused on winning workers' rights becoming the dominant position within fur Her, the synicalists dropped their commitment to anarchist communism and claimed the name the Fora of the Ninth Congress, while the minority of anarchists that maintained their commitments anarchist communism took

the name the Fura of the Fifth Congress. The timing of the split was impeccable, though you see, as has been a recurring theme in this series, the Russian Revolution of nineteen seventeen had a significant impact in Argentinian anarchism. In a sense, it reignited the revolutionary fever within the movement and led to the reformist and cynicalist four or nine losing influence, but revolutionary ideas once again gained momentum. For a brief moment, there was hope, but the Bolsheviks

will waste little time in crushing that hope. By nineteen twenty, Argentinian anarchists, like their European counterparts, began to distance themselves from Leninism. They began to recognize the authority and nature of the Bolsheviks, took note of Kropotkin and Lenin's correspondences and soon came to reject the idea of the dictatorship of the proletaria. On his part, alongside his mass slats

of the anarchists in Constat. Then in all So ordered the confiscation of anarchist texts, but he saw us influencing the conflict within the Bolshevik ranks. Tale as old as time. Anyway, next time we'll see if and how the anarchist Argentina managed to navigate the tumultuous twenties, thirties and beyond to leave a lasting mark on Argentine history. But things are looking too good for them right now. Until then, we'll power to all the people. This has been It could

happen here. Hello, and welcome back to it could happen here, Amandrew Sage. F'm me on YouTube at Andrew's I'm here once again with.

Speaker 4

Oh be a haha. That was by Q. Yeah indeed, yeah, she's here.

Speaker 13

And today we'll continue in the Latin American Anarchism series with our exploration of anarchism in Argentina. That's the scholarship of Chuck Moss, Jeffrey de la Focade, and Hill Capelletti and Jose Antonio Guterrez and Ian McKay. When we us left, all faious laws and government actions were pressed hard on the anarchist cause in the country, which when the anarchists executed, jailed or exiled, what become of the anarchist movement? Where things get better or worse? Sad to say, I think

you know the answer. Nineteen nineteen marked the year of La Simana Tragica or the Tragic Week, when several metal workers were killed by strike breakers. This led to a general strike that shut down the entire country and pushed Buenos Aires into a state of chaos for several days. The anarchist paper A Protester, noted the complete shutdown and praised workers solidarity.

Speaker 6

But despite the revolutionhang.

Speaker 13

Atmosphere, the movement lacked a clear objective, which weakened its long term impact.

Speaker 6

They had the power, but didn't do too much with it.

Speaker 13

Eventually, the police and Argentina's first fascist organization, Lega Patriotica, were able to subdue the rebellion. The fascists, by the way, we were backed by military figures like Rare Admirals burmech Garcia and O'Connor. They attacked and killed with impunity, and in the end the fifty five thousand were detained, with anarchists sent to Martin, Garcia, Ireland, and as many as seven hundred were killed and four thousand were injured. The

anarchist move one persisted as they always do. That protester continued publishing, alongside the launch of new papers like Mandera Roja and Tribuna Proletaria, even after the government banned anarchist press in March nineteen nineteen. They move on contained you to organize, culminating an extraordinary Congress of two hundred unions

in September nineteen twenty. Throughout the nineteen twenties, four or five remained a powerful force in Argentina's labor movement, pushing for causes like the six hour weekday and resistant rise in nationalists and military sentiments, but throughout came more repression. In nineteen twenty one, Argentinian workers there Are for A style in the Chaco region were brutally killed for demanding

better wages and conditions. The anarchist FOURR proposed solidarity actions, but the more reformist FORA the Ninth Congress, distanced itself,

leaving the movement unsupported. This indifference, unfortunately also extended to other violent incidents, such as the murder of workers were the fascist Legal Patriotica in gualle Kuaiaju, and worse still, with the largely unreported massacres of striking rural workers in Patagonia by the army sending fifteen hundred to death by firing squad, an event ignored by most media except for

anarchist outlets like Leberate Esther. In this case, at least the anarchists got their get back somewhat later, when German anarchists could Wilkins assassinated, couldn't Hector Valera, the military leader responsible for the killers.

Speaker 4

That whole story is so wild because the German assassin was also a pacifist. But it's just like fuck it.

Speaker 6

With ball, Yeah, I mean sometimes they had to do what you had to do.

Speaker 13

Yeah, And I mean the government got it to get back as well, because Wilkins was later murdered in retaliation for his murder of you know, Hector Valera. But at least that led to general strike across Argentina. It truly is a wild story. Anarchists in Argentina further agitated in opposition to the trial and execution of Italian American anarchists Sacco and Vanzetti in the United States in nineteen twenty seven. This was a notorious case by the way, but we'll

pull that string another time. There was anarchist who took the protests in a different direction, though known to be prolific in his acts of violence. Italian anarchists Severino the Giovanni, carried out bombin's against the American embassy to protest the trial, bombings against the Italian consulate to protest Italian fascism, and robberies throughout the country. The Giovanni's actions sparked debate among

anarchists about the issue of quote unquote anarcho banditry. Some papers, like Landtorchia, defended the Giovanni, others like That Protester, attacked him.

Speaker 6

The Giovanni's fight.

Speaker 13

Came to an end in nineteen thirty one, when he was arrested and executed for carrying out the murder of one of his fascest fellow anarchist critics, a certain La Protester editor named Emilio Lopez Arango. As it could probably imagine, they weren't any general strikes to protest the Giovanni's execution. General Jose Felix Urriburu led a coup in nineteen thirty that marked the ra eyes of fascism in Argentina and

the continuation of systematic persecution against workers and anarchists. Many were imprisoned, deported, or killed, including prominent figures like Juan Antonio Moran and Joaquin Penina. Anarchist groups and unions were oppressed under Uriburu's martial law, whither more moderate Confederacio and General del Trabajo or SGT, dominated by reformers. Socialists survived and became the main representative of workers in the country thanks to Uriburu's corporatist stats. Martial law was peeled back

slightly by nineteen thirty two. With such heavy blows the movement, anarchists had to pull back to the more countercultural efforts to define their movement. In the eighteen eighties, for Our resumed publishing activities with that protester returning as a daily but government pressure, including action against his editors and restrictions and postal services, made it difficult to maintain this daily schedule. Eventuallyla Protest transition to a weekly, then bi weekly, and

family monthly publication. Despite these challenges, a group of anarchist militants and via Devoto Prison, conceived the idea of a national Anarchist Congress. This congress first met in September nineteen thirty two in the Rosario, which that it gets from across the country, and one key outcome of this congress was the creation of the Committee Rijonal de re Laciones

Anarquistas or the CRIRA. This later foundation for became the Argentine Anacho Communist Federation or FACER in nineteen thirty five, although the organization never really gained a mass following in nineteen thirty five, anarchists also established to be able to take er Popular Jose in h niros a library and social center. While initially founded the support of socialists, the

anarchist took full control after the socialists left. Around this time, anarchist groups campaign faiercely to free Voto Maini and the Diago comrades, who had been tortured and imprisoned for over a decade. The newspaper just this year was created solely to advocate for their release, who was finally granted in nineteen forty two. Throughout this period, the anarchist press remained active,

the number of publications diminished. Several publishing houses like not Review, Iman, Tupac and Reconstrier kept anarchist literature alive, publishing key works and essays. In nineteen thirty three, Accion Libertaria emerged and eventually became the voice of FACA, later owners the Federacion Libertaria Argentina or FLA until nineteen seventy one. But the most significant international event for Argentine anarchists during the nineteen

thirties was the Spanish Civil War. The rise of fascist among the resistance, led by the CNT and Federacio Anarchista Iberica or FAI, inspired Argentine anarchists to provide solidarity and support. Many traveled to Spain to join the fight, with Jose Grenfeld become and the secretary of the FAI. Campaigns to support anti fascists in the Spanish Civil War were also launched,

with FACA publishing books and pamphlets in the struggle. FACA launched Saladari dad Operera in nineteen forty one, edited by Juan Corral and Loreano Rieira, though it was later shut down by the first Justici Aalista government under Peron. FURA also began publishing a series of booklets, including Toros condre la Guerra in nineteen thirty five and Lucca Constructiva Pola

Lebordad e Justicia in nineteen forty four. One notable libertarian cultural journal, Ombre de America, ran from January nineteen forty until the end of nineteen forty five, covering nearly the entire duration of the Second World War. FACA was clear about its position on the global conflicts of the time. In nineteen forty two General Plennary, the group denounced both Western democracies, which they saw as vlain capitalist exploitation, and

the Soviet Union, which they deemed bureaucratic. However, they saw the greatest threat in national socialism the Nazis and the rise of the Third Reich one in the total tyrrianism was the worst danger of their era. Faker's statement of solidarity with the oppressed under the Nazi barbarity also recognized the threat posed by Soviet expansionism and the force promises of post war democracies. Domestically, FAKA and FA faced a

new challenge with the rise of Juan Domingo Perun. His populist approach, while beneficial somewhat to workers, was paradoxical for anarchists. Prone's government promoted a state centered jingoistic project that co opted labor movements through control networks, undermining genuine proletarian democracy. Anarchists rejected Peranism, seen its as a threat to the

revolutionary ethos of worker's solidarity. Despite this, fora retained some influence, especially among agricultural workers, who were caught between the identities of peasants and workers. In June nineteen forty six, anarchist launched a new newspaper, Reconstruire, with Louista Luci as editor. The first issue featured Jaccobo Prince's critique of Peranism in an article titled El totali tarismo falsea il Principio de Justicia social, calling out the regime's distortion of social justice.

By the late nineteen forties and early nineteen fifties, FA's influence had waned and anacosynicalism was reduced to a smaller role in Argentina's labor movement. However, the Sociya Dad there Resistencia del p del Puerto, aligned with FA, demonstrated their commitment to anarchosynicalism in nineteen fifty two by rejecting a compulsory wage tax to fund a monument to Eva Peron Jesus Christ.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 13

This act of defiance led to the imprisonment of several militants for six months. Imagine you decide you want to reject extra taxes because the dictator's wife demands a monument like that's the ethrone jail because you decide you don't want to pay that tax.

Speaker 4

God, this terrible stuff.

Speaker 13

While Peerans regime weakened free unism, he did so by means of corruption rather than violence, contrasting with the methods of his predecessor Urriburu. Facer continued its work well then several congresses, including the fourth in nineteen fifty one and the fifth of nineteen fifty five, just before Peroans overthrew

in nineteen fifty five. Facker rebranded as the Federacion Libertaria Argentina or the FLA, and the FLA held its sixth congress in nineteen sixty one, and his journal records career, published regularly from nineteen fifty nine until nineteen seventy six, coincided with the onset of Argentina's most brutal dictatorship. But before we fast forward in nineteen seventy six, we need to explore took place in the sixties. The sixties are known as the New Left era in many parts of

the world thanks to the rise of student radicalism. The New Left is marked by a notable libertarian and democratic impulse, an emphasis on cultural as well as political transformation, an extension of traditional lefts focus in class struggle to achnowledge multiple forms and basis of oppression, including race and gender, an emphasis and anti imperialism and anti clonalism, and a rejection of bureaucracy and traditional forms of political organization in

favor of direct action and participatory democracy. Many youth were searching for a third way outside of Soviet and Western models, so during the nineteen sixties and seventies, a new generation of Argentine youth turned to anarchism, though they struggled to collaborate with the older anarchist movements. Cultural and political differences were the heart of this divide, with younger militantligning themselves more to global anti imperureless movements at the time than

with the anarchist legacy already within Argentina. In some ways, this generational riff left a scar in the anarchist struggle. In other ways helped younger anarchists to develop a clearer ideological stance compared to their counterparts in countries where such internal conflicts were less prevalent. One of the most significant anarchist groups to emerge during this period was Resistancia Libertaria.

Operating condestantly and with a cellular structure, RL aimed to ignite mass resistance and ultimately spark a prolonged popular war. The group was active in neighborhoods, labor movements, and student circles, and it had a small armed wing for defense and expropriation purposes. Although it was formerly a national organization, RL's main operations were in La Plata, Cordoba and purosiris A. Argentina grew increasingly polarized in the mid nineteen seventies, arial

activists became targets. Many were disappeared even before the military coup of nineteen seventy six, but then it hit Henry Kissinger at the United States Machinations or fruit.

Speaker 6

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we go in there.

Speaker 13

A military coup overthrew President Isabel Peron, the third wife of the original Peron, and installed a junta led by Lieutenant General Jorgue Rafael videla Admiral Emilio Eduardo Masserra and Brigadier General Orlando Ramon Augusti. This coup was part of Operation Condo, a coordinated effort between Latin American dictatorships back with the United States under its Cold War National Security doctrine.

The aim was allegedly to maintain stability in the region that America considers its backyard, and US officials, including Kissinger, was shorten meet with Argentine military leaders after the coup encouraged them to wipe out the opposition quickly and brutally before any winy human rights concerned started to be raised internationally. The junta remained in power until December nineteen eighty three, during which time some thirty thousand people were disappeared or executed.

RL militants were particularly targeted by the regime. One particularly horrible story I have to share. The military men responsible for the killings often spared pregnant women, kept them in custody until they gave birth, then killed the mothers and gave their influence to childless military families.

Speaker 4

Is christ.

Speaker 13

That's the kind of evil with dealing mid Yeah, And despite the dangers, RL continued its activities until nineteen seventy eight, when a series of coordinated police raids dismantled much of the group. Around eighty percent of URL members were detained in concentration camps where they were tortured and most were eventually executed. And that is how you kill a social movement.

In the final years of the tatorship and follow on their re establishment of civil government in nineteen eighty three, new and relatively anti authoritarian social movements emerged in Argentina, among the most prominent, with the Madres te la Plaza de Mayo, a group of mothers advocating for justice for those who had been disappeared on the military regime. Alongside them, they are psychologists, feminists, and other grassroots activists began to

make their voices heard. This shift marked a significant departure from traditional state centric leftist politics, with a growing inclination towards more decentralized approaches. While this climate sparked renewed interest in anarchism, it didn't lead to a substantial increase in the membership of older anarchist organizations. Instead, it highlighted the transformation and how social movements approached to activism and sought to address issues of justice and accountability, and then we come

into the twenty first century. In the early two thousand, Argentina, which was once a poster child for neoliberalism thanks to the actions of the didataship, found itself in the throwers of a devastating economic crisis. This meltdown didn't just affect the economy, ignited a wave of social movements that were far more confrontational, radical, and anarchistic than before, which of the rise of militant neighborhood assemblies, factory takeovers, and intense

street protests. What was happened in Argentina was a direct result of more than two decades of so called free market reforms and structural adjustment programs. These policies had left the economy in ruins, with poverty and unemployment levels soaring. By the time the crisis hit, poverty had shot up from thirty one percent to fifty three percent, and unemployment had jumped to twenty one point four percent, nearly a

quarter of the country's population. Out of this chaos came the Pictaros, a new movement of unemployed workers who turned their anger.

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Into direct action.

Speaker 13

They didn't just march in protest, they blocked roads demanding work and dignity. But what said the Picto's apart from traditional unions was they commitments to horizontal organizing and direct action. They knew that those unions didn't represent them, and they wanted something more than just jobs. They wanted dignity, and

they wanted us say in how society was run. One of the voices from this movement, a woman from the Solano neighborhood in Buenos Aires, captured the spirit when she said, I dream of my children finding a way of life here away from the despair the system gives us. We're building something new. Politics without political parties, end code. The Pictaro's didn't just demand employment, they wanted meaningful work.

Speaker 6

They gave them control over their lives.

Speaker 13

They weren't looking to be fooled by back into the capitalist system that had failed them. Instead, they called themselves autonomous workers in envisionous society where people took charge their communities and their futures. And then came December two thousand and one. On the nineteenth, the crisis hit a boiling point.

All across the country. People took to the streets, unemployed workers, middle class families, and whole neighborhoods They were united in their demands an end to the government's economic policies and the resignation of the deeply unpopular President, Fernando de la Rua. After two days of street battles with police, government collapsed. In the wake of this upheaval. Neighborhood assemblies popped up everywhere, and the pictaros intensified their efforts. Millions of workers across

Argentina joined a general strike. In Protasius alone, over a million people defied a government imposed state of emergency flood in the streets in protest. It wasn't just about events and frustration with what reclaiming their power. In a way, the ideas of anarchism, self management, the centralization, and direct action were be input into practice on a truly massive scale, even though anarchist groups themselves didn't necessarily lead the charge.

The fight wasn't just on the streets, though, It had to happen in the factories, the fields, across all the sectors of society. They couldn't just remove politicians. They had to dismantle the entire system of exploitation and replace it with something radically different. A key piece of this puzzle was the rise of the fabricas, recuperatas, or reclaim factories. These takeovers didn't start with the two thousand one uprising, though.

The first occupation happened back in nineteen ninety six, when workers in a cool storage plant to control after the bosses abandoned it. More factories followed suit, with workers stepping in with an owner's fled But they weren't even trying to launch an offensive against capitalism. They were simply trying to survive, to hold onto their livelihoods and an economy

that had pushed them to the edge. By the time of the Argentine Uprising in December two thousand and one, over one hundred and seventy factories had been reclaimed, with some ten thousand workers taking part in this new form of collective labor. The message was clear, when the bosses leave, the workers are more than capable of keeping things running. In these reclaimed factories, they got rid of the traditional management hierarchies and made collective decisions and shared income equally.

It was a living example of one potential way society could function without the capitalist class. In the midst of the Argentine economic collaps these workers didn't just resist, they were also producing, hence their banner of occupy resistar prosir, Occupy Resist, produce the newest possible, to not just fight, but to build something new from the ground up, not just to survive, but to lay the foundations for a

new society. The cries of kissevayan totros or basically out with all of them called the widespread dissolution with the entire political class. But the sentiment needed to be transformed into something more substantial, a proper political framework to drive the momentum forward. But it's also into this framework, this potentially anarchist framework wasn't fully developed among the population at

the time. There were some comrades who were working towards bill in such a framework, but much of the movement, particularly of the left, were focused on elections as a way forward. The logic was simple. A left leading government could introduce policies to a leeviy the situation and prevent the open repression of popular movements. What does this really achieve.

It risked the transfer and of the struggle from the streets, from the workplaces, from the hands of the people into the hands of a new set of politicians, shifting the focus from the masses to a few leaders operating within clearly capitalist institutions. The elections were not important. The fight was about winning seats in the government, and that needed to be understood. The fighter was about building a true

popular power. Kiss if I am totos out with all of them rejected not just individuals, but the entire political, social and economic power structures. Even though the Argentine people will not identify and as anarchists, they will apply on anarchist principles in many aspects of their struggles, just like the Appatistas and Chiappas who ruse up in nineteen twenty fourth Rally and cry yabasta or enough already. The Argentine uprising was a clear rejection of state power and capitalism.

Votes can't last forever, but they could plant the seat of a new society, one built from below. But the movement was torn between the two approaches of whether factory should be managed by workers under state ownership or they should be completely worker owned. Some argue the demanding expropriation why the state wasn't a real solution within a capitalist framework, because the state itself was responsible for the conditions they

found themselves in. But even though they argue the true because power came from the workers controlling their own production. On the flip side, cooperatives don't really address the deeper issues of capitalism. Cooperativism does an inherently challenge capitalist relations of production, just tinkers with the surface issues like monopolies, internal structures, and competition. Building a network of cooperatives can be valuable, but it's not going to create a subsystem

capable of top len capitalism. Anarchism, and specifically anarchist communist ideas propose something far more transformative. Abortion all forms of farwer exercised by minority, whether the bourgeoisie or the state, assuming control of not just factories and fields, but all of society. It's not a choice between cooperatives or state

managed workplaces. It's about creating conditions for all workers and all people to self organize, and such reforms such as reforms for workers to have control of their workplaces merely steps. It's what a much larger goal should be kept in in that struggle. These experiences in this history in Argentina shows us that anarchist ideas are not just lofty dreams.

Speaker 6

They grounded in real struggles of working people.

Speaker 13

Consciously or unconsciously proven that a society without bosses, managers and expectation is possible. Every social struggle, every revolutionary action, is another step towards building that world. Through these movements, through these actions, through these struggles, we can see the

foundation of a new society. And to the people of Argentina who now face the rule of a new right way menace employees, to stand up and say, once again, kisevan Toros out with all of them, all power to all the people.

Speaker 6

Peace.

Speaker 4

Hey, We'll be.

Speaker 2

Back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe.

Speaker 1

It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.

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