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human blood. Tell me about it. Yeah, that is the reason, sharing that you have encountered mosquito, So I want to I want to talk first about their life cycle and then about their their predation on charene So mosquito. Say, the eggs in stagnant water. That's water that's not moving, right, I know some things, Jane. Okay, okay, not everyone knows about stagnant water, Charine. There are listeners too. They might

not know. So their eggs hatch into lava, and the lava become puber These stages are all aquatic, right, They all happen in the stagnant water, right, And then the adult mosquito hatches from the pupa and it hatches on the surface and then it flies off and it sucks up your evening.

And as we'll see, like one of the main ways to control them is like limiting the amount of stagnant water for some species only the females that a species are the bloodsuckers, and in some cases they don't need the blood and in other cases to lay their eggs they need to have a blood meal as it's called,

which is which is a nice words unsettling. Okay. Yeah, So the mosquitoes that are vectors for human diseases, so they're like the transportation vector vehicle for the disease between one person and another those are the guys who often need a little blood meal to lay their eggs. They don't only attack people, actually, they sort of have a preferred species, but in a pinch, they'll go after anything with blood. And I've seen them get really thick on cattle and stuff in the summer, or horses.

Because if you have a water tank, right, and then mosquitos are breeding in the tank, it's where you want to keep that tank moving like right.

I have type of blood. Yeah, me too. I feel like I'm victimized like more than most people by the mosquito and they choose me. Yeah.

over time. If you're getting bit and all the time, others can become more sensitive and then increased sensitivity is known as Sketos syndrome Skeeter syndrome. Look up and what it looks like. Because I'm very sensitive to them. Okay, maybe we've got two diagnosed es in one episode. We've got skin bacteria and Sketa syndrome.

like in your mouth. Yeah, it was crazy. It was bad, Shane, Yeah, it was fucked. One had just stung me before, like the extent which I swell at when beasting me. I got stung in the leg on a training ride and I had to upgrade to like exit shorts because like my thigh just become like yeah, and then one got me in the mouth.

including viruses, parasites, and bacteria. Some of their greatest hits include yellow fever, Dangay malaria, Tuderimia zeka, chicken gunya, and West Nile virus. Speaking from experience, some of those are really shit and you are best avoiding all of those. That's going to be my advice to you as a doctor. In one European history, it really fucking sucks to get some of these. I've had some diseases from some mosquitos,

and I would not recommend. The mosquitoes don't actually get sick themselves, and it's like it's immune system can destroy the virus, but if it bites someone else and then bites you before it's immune system destroys the virus' genetic code, you can get sick and at some parasites. Apparently malaria can make mosquitoes more apt to go biting. It's interesting. It kind of turns them into zombie brain mosquitos. That's how I like to think about it. With malaria, which

is kind of the main mosquito vector disease. I guess that we think about the parasite replicates in the liver cells and then moves about by the bloodstream. If you get bitten again, the blood could then pass that malaria to the next victim of the mosquito. I'm going on a trip soon for work. I'll probably be on it when you will hear this, And like, because people are

traveling more, all these different diseases are becoming more common. Right, They're endemic in one area, and then people come from that area to another area, and then mosquitos are hopping around when they're in a new area. That then thats

rereading in that area. So I was talking to some folks, like on the areas where migrants travel north, all the types of malaria are now currently present, which is great because you've got people from all over the world, right, and then the mosquitoes are hopping from someone from China to someone who's come from Mauritania and spreading their little mosquito vector diseases around. So that is bad treating. Do you know what else is bad?

how do we prevent them from biting us? First of all, we can stop them having little useful pools of stagnant water to replicate in right Like, this means like, if you're like me, One of my friends referred to my my garden as a quote Alaska yard, which I think is a is a way of saying that it's a mess and there are lots of like car parts and like little little things that I am fixing soon, you know.

And I guess having an Alaska yard is bad for the mosquitos, like especially things like tires, right Like, you know, if you have a big car tire, water pools in there, and they can have a little breed in there, same as buckets in marshy areas, what people do is they dig ditches that allows water to move so that water doesn't sit completely still, and then introducing certain fish. It can also help. Certain fish will eat, including the mosquito

fish will eat the lava of the mosquito tilapia. Also this so like you can have a nice little if you're a person who eats fish, a nice still situation where you're reducing the disease burden. And also like providing a food source, which is something they're working on, that you can drain swamps. Of course, Donald Trump famously has drained the swamp right, yeah, I hear no malaria do you see anymore because of Donald Trump? But doing so

obviously destroys an important habitat. Certainly you don't want to just be draining swamps. I was reading about something in Florida they do called rotational impound management, where they kind of allow water levels to fluctuate and then they have these clever little gates that mean that that other species like the fish and the crustaceans can move about that they're keeping them water moving to stop the little mosquito eggs.

For me, the other way to do it is to try and kill them, right, So, there are various ways of doing that. One of them is to create an environment where they would want to lay their eggs, but then have that environment kill their eggs. So there are various at home ways of doing this, so like you could make a stagnant water thing and then blitz up the eggs or filter them out, or you can put things with oversides in there which to kill the eggs. Some of them also kill the mosquitos when they come

and lay their eggs. You can also use their little hunting senses against them, right, so you can create an environment that attracts them either by seeming like a person or by seeming like a good place for them to breed, and then you can filter out the eggs from where they lay them right, or you can kill them when they come on in. There are things called lava sides. Maybe that's what I'm using with my chicken thing actually that destroy the lava. There are little bricks that you

dissolve in your water. And there are some pretty low risk insecticides that you can use, and there are also higher risk in sexicides, or at least underpopular intexticides. And this is where a friend of the Cauzone media network DDT comes in. Are you familiar with DDT Treed?

spraying down whole neighborhoods with DDT. Right, and people kind of became aware the DDT actually isn't a great idea both pre ecological and health reasons about sixty years ago, when Rachel Carson published a book called Silent Spring. It's kind of one of the foundational texts of the environmental movement, right, And I think people often credit like Rachel Carson with

being the only person that that's not necessarily true. Like you can look at migrant farm workers actually and see that they have been for a long time being Like, I don't think it's great that you're dosing us with this pesticide all the time. Like maybe maybe stop spraying us with the DDT. You stopped playing the places. I want to quote a really good piece there in the New Republic on DDT. We now know that DDT causes tumors in myce and rats. It thins birds eggs to

the point that mothers indiversally crushed their gestating offspring. It may disrupt bird sense of orientation, sending them out to see to die. It fundamentally alters the reproductive ordinance of a array of critters. It can poison animals even decades after spraying has ended. Further, a growing body of evidence has linked DT to numerous forms of cancer in humans, especially breast cancer. Studies have shown how the levels of

DDT in our bodies track inequalities in human society. For instance, there are higher DDT levels in black people than in whites, and higher levels in poor people than in rich ones.

to use DDT. One thing we can do to kill them is they introduce predators, which is kind of cool. Tilapia is one predator. Dragonflies or another. I love a dragonfly. Big interesting flies. So like in Bikina Faso, they're working on a fungus with a mosquito specific neurotoxin, which is kind of cool. It can just grow and kill the mosquitos.

The World Mosquito programs also trialing a bacteria that when mosquitos carry it, it amps up their immune system, so like they kill the virus or the parasite or whatever it is more quickly, so then they're less lightly to be vectors. There's also programs which introduce male mosquitos which are not able to have kids either they're sterile or they're breeding results in eggs that won't hatch, so that's

kind of interesting control the population that way. And they also have these really interesting genetically modified mosquitos that need antibiotic tetracycline to grow. So they raise a batch in the lab and gives them the tetracycline that they need right, and then they let them out to breed and then when they read because they're young don't have tetracycline that they don't grow and they don't make it. It's really

interesting to think about. Like some folks are advocating for completely eradicating them, just wiping them off the face of the planet, which would seem to have many benefits, right with all these diseases that they vector. I'm one of those people. Yeah, you're a mosquito genocider. I found it's interesting pieces that they're like a forest's defense mechanism against humans. Like if we look at that, like the ecosystem's.

right and so right, it's hard, real hard for me sitting in America to be like, no, we shouldn't. But I guess I understand that argument. But if we go about it by fucking dousing whole areas and DDT again, then that's not great either, right, that can have it. That can then can have it downside. Anyone else has its downside, shrim It's having to pivot to add every ten to fifteen minutes in this job that we do. So we're going to do it now we're back. We

are entering the final trimester of our podcast. And yeah, if you like that, I'd like to. I'd like to think of them as trimesters, the last slice of this little podcast cake for you guys. So I wanted to present some little strategies I like to use please when I am going to places where I am worried about being eaten alive by the little flies.

mosquito net. That's nice. Yeah, it's really nice. Like I like it so I don't have to fuck around with like draping it and worry about like the little gaps, right yeah, And I use that a lot. I use a whole little system that they make, and it's it's really nice. If I'm in hotels, seat a Summit makes a sleeping bagliner. A I like to take seking bagline out when I'm going places like I got fucking fleas

from a hotel bed in Rwanda. Oh no, yeah, it was bad, like if you think mosquito had to try it having And for people who haven't seen me, I'm a hairy person, like have long hair and had a beard, and fleas were just upon me and it was bad. So I like to take a little sleeping bagliner. Now that's treated with a mosquito repellent. But it must be safe for skin and stuff though, right, yeah, yeah, it's it's embedded in the fabric called permethrine. We'll talk about

it in a second. It's the last thing I use is a head bugnet. I'm a massive advocate for the head bugnet. I know you look like a complete lemon, but like it's just I don't like to be bitten in the face. No, I have been bit in the face, so yeah, it's not fun. Yeah, take it from Charine bite survivor. If you have a brimmed hat, it's much nicer because it sort of hangs in front of your face. Then,

but I wear with these all the time. If you like to see wildlife, it's nice to you because it's kind of camouflaging, like it takes the glare off your face. You get really bad in sticks up in Scotland, like when I've been out there in the summer time at Form one, and I wear a lot in California, like there are some places like to hike where we have year round water here, but it's definitely pretty gross by like the end of the summer. You know, it's like

it's been sitting for a while. But water is a bit constraint on your on your hiking out here, right, so you kind of need it. So I'll go down there and filter my water. But I wear my little bug face net and it works great. I love it. So after that, you can also do repellance. These come in two forms, so it's the one that you put on your clothes and the ones that you put on your body. Right. The one that you put on your

clothes is called permethrine. The thing with permethrin is that it's a neurotoxin for cats, which is very bad for cats. So Soya makes a little spray bottle of it and you can spray it on your own clothes and treat them right. But if you have cats you have you must do this outside like you can't do in your house.

With your cats. It's safe once it's dry, so that you can spray them, let them be on your washing line or what have you, and then and then when it's dry you can you can bring them aside and then it's safe, honestly, Like you can also send them off to a company I think it's called Insect Shield and they'll spray them for you. In the way they do it somehow bonds it for much longer, like normally at lasts for about six washes, but with them you

can get like ten times as many washes. You can also buy shit, like I've just got a hoodie from a company called First Light, who make like fancy hunting stuff that has the insect stuff built in. Yeah. I like that because then if you have a hoodie as well, you can put you know, you get like a lot of coverage. But like, if a cat likes sat on this clothing, it's fine now because it's bonded. Yeah, your cat could like go and curl up in it and then have a sleep and things. So even if it

gets wet, that's okay. It's when the permethro in itself is wet the first application, that's when it's risky. Okay, I see, I see. If you're going to do that, you want to do your socks as well, because they fucking love to bite around the ankle.

toxic to aquatic invertebrates, fish and bees. Because with all these things that, I don't want to just be spraying and insecticide into the world, right like yeah, and damaging like innocent non micro predators. So what the thermo cell does is you know what people have those little things in their houses where they put an essential oil in and it puffs and picture house not nice. Yeah, it's like that. It's like that, okay, and it does that.

But with this metaphlutherin and they work okay, like if you're in your tent stuff they work like they don't work if it's windy, they don't really work. They can be nice, like if you set them up and let them get going for a while and then come into a space, they can be really nice. And then you have other things like a fan. You can have the electric traps, right, which kind of bring even electrocute them.

Deep is the most popular one. People are pretty familiar with Deep. It was developed by the US Army in the forties. The big thing with D is it's really hard on plastics. So I'm not a contact lens or glass wearer. I don't know a contact lens is made of glass or plastic? Isn't the wrong person? Man? Okay, yeah, I have worn both, and I have no idea. I'm going to say, like a that's with that perfect vision. I have won neither, So I don't know.

So after that it's just you're buying yourself more time between applications. Also, it gets more concentrated your risking damaging your gear. And like, I don't like the way it makes my mouth feel, like with the spray. If you spray it, you get this like metallic dry mouth. It seems like you're killing yourself when you walk into a cloud of deep.

I mean I like their sh yeah, I do. I think they're really cool company. Actually, they seem to make stuff that like solves problems and then just keep making it. They don't make a new thing every year, different color and trying and rehype it, you know. Like they did really cool shap in the Marshal Islands. It's cool to see and like. Yeah, as companies go, I think they're pretty right on. They also gave us some water filters to help with the migrants the other day, which is

very nice of them. We needed some water filters for folks crossing the border and they gave us some. So they are my friends. But yeah, their one is good. They make a nice sun cream actually as well, so you can you can double dip there. I'm sure it's not up to the standards of your your imported sun creams, but.

the climate is changing. These swampy marsh areas are drying up, so we're getting more stagnant water and less through flow. Like this is becoming a bigger problem, and our healthcare system is continuing to be fucked and getting worse, certainly in the United States, but so United Kingdom and other places. So yeah, be careful of the mosquitoes. Remember to do your sun cream before you're before your mosquito cream or lotion or whatever you're using, screen your mosquito screen. That's

sort of a I got a mosquito scream? You got anything to add?

episode or the development of anarchistsinicalism in Peru. So they continuing along with my previous research on anarchism and other parts of the world, much information I've gathered as thanks to the work of Stephen J. Hush and they shoudn't found the world, particularly anarchism and cynicalism in the colonial

and post colonial world eighteen seventeen, nineteen forty. And you know, people don't usually think of Peru when they think of anarchistsinicalist struggles, not even in the context of Latin America. Folks familiar with that history would quicker consider Brazil or

Argentina as sites of anarchistsinicalism. You know, in Brazil, the roots of anarchism could be traced back to the late nineteenth century, to the influence of European immigrants, and by the early twentieth century had anarchist ideas keen interaction across the working class, with the establishment of various associations and newspapers like the Brazilian Workers Confederation founded in nineteen oh six.

Anarchists would play, of course, a crucial role in the General strike of nineteen seventeen, and then, unfortunately, with the rise of Jitulio Vargas and his Estado Novo regime in the nineteen thirties, there was a very severe oppression of anarchist activities in Argentina. He also had anarchism taken route in the late nineteenth century, again largely due to the influence of European immigrants, and by the early twentieth century Buenos Aires had become a hub of anarchist activity, with

numerous anarchist newspapers, clubs and unions. The Argentine Region of Workers Federation, foundated nineteen oh one, was a leading anachosynicus

organization that advocated for workers' rights and direct action. Sadly, the movement reached its peak during the first two decades of twentieth century, and fortunately, similarly to Brazil, due to the repression they endured, particularly during the infamous Tragic Weak in nineteen nineteen, where a major workers strike led to violent clashes and a crackdown on anarchists and labor activists.

The overall movement went into a decline. Peru during this period was predominantly an agrarian society with a large and economically marginalized indigenous population. It hardly resembled a nation into throes of industrialization. So although there was significant capitalist growth in Peru's export sectors, chiefly mining, sugar, cotton, and wool, vast areas of the country remained largely unaffected by these

capitalist changers. Aside from Lima and its adjacent port city, Calau, which served as the nation's administrative, commercial and financial hub, sizeable Iwan economies were conspicuously absent. This lack of urban centers typically assumed eight with industrial growth post a unique challenge for the development of a robust labor movement, but

laborment would still arise. The working class in Lemaclaur would emerge beginnings in the eighteen nineties and early nineteen hundreds, spurred by the export boom that invigorated the urban economy. Profits from the export sectors with reinvestments and new financial institutions, infrastructure projects, utility companies, and consumer goods industries by native and foreign capitalists, and this economic growth led to a

dramatic rise in the urban labor force in Lima. The number of manual workers grew from about nine thousand in eighteen seventy six tony twenty four thousand and nineteen oh eight, making up seventeen percent of Lema's estimated one hundred and forty thousand residents. In Kalau, the workforce grew at a slower pace, doubling in size Streeen nineteen oh five nineteen twenty to around eight thousand out of a total population

of fifty two thousand. So this is not a bustling industrial heartland by any means, and peasant based society is are not exactly known for their syndicalism, But despite its unlikelihood, Peru was indeed also a place of anarchist cynicalism, though

most notably within Lima and Callao. The nineteen tens and twenties were the Heydi of syncalism Peru, as anarchist ideas and publications were circulated by a small handful of radical immigrants intellectuals, alongside the labor organized and efforts of craftsmen and machine tenders who were inspired by Pruron, Bercunan, Kropotkin,

and Manchester. Thanks to their efforts, anarchist cynicalism would come to dominate the still fledgland labor movement in Peru, spreading its influence beyond Limacalau to the working classes along Peru's northern coast and central and southern highlands. Workers in factories, crafts, transportation, and rural settings all found appeal in the ideals and

practice of the ideology. Of course, at the size of the movement of the time, the anarchists may have dominated the movement, but the movement itself and the anarchists with that had constituted a minority of Peru's urban and rural working classes. Keeps that in mind as we proceed stea

emerging Peruvian working class was highly diverse. He had workers of different origins, gender, race, ethnicity, age, skill level, and despite these differences, they all were dealing with long working hours after between twelve to sixteen hours a day in poor conditions for meager wages that barely covered basic living expenses. Seeking to improve their dire working and living conditions, workers began to turn to anarchism because the elite dominated political

system in Peru was simply not taking them on. But there was a handful of sympathetic dissolusion elites like Manuel Gonzalez Prada, an upper class intellectual who became an anarchist after interacting with French and Spanish anarchists during a self imposed European exile between eighteen ninety one and eighteen ninety eight.

Gonzales Prada founded the first anarchist publication, Los Parias in nineteen oh four, and this was soon followed by other anarchist newspapers like Lassimier and the Roja, Elambriento, Umanidad and Oprimido.

Anarchist slogans like Kropotkins liberties and not bestowed, They're seized were prominently featured in these newspapers, and these publications, mainly produced by radical intellectuals such as Glicerio Tassara and hil Rihi Cali, Carlos del Barzo and Ino Sincio Dombarozzi, introduced workers to European anarchist ideas and perspectives on the state, the Bouchoisi, the church, property and class relations. Anarchist study circles further promoted these ideas among workers, operated by both

workers and radical intellectuals. Groups like the Center of Socialist Studies First of May in Lima and Love and Light in Calao, provided spaces for discussing anarchist principles, and these study circles, like the anarchist press, emphasized workers, self emancipation and cultural advancement. And somehow this man manages to come up in practically every single one of my explorations of

anarchist history, that being the Spanish anarchist Francisco Ferrer. He was the guy who kick started the modern school movement in Spain and led to the creation of anarchist schools worldwide, and he was also unjustly executed by the Spanish state.

was no different. On October seventeenth, nineteen oh nine, the Center of Socialist Studies First of May organized a public protest in response to the execution of federer A by the Spanish government, and these sorts of demonstrations were not new to the workers in Peru at the time. In the previous year, an anarchist musical group associated with the Center held a performance to commemorate the nineteen oh seven

massacre of Chilean mine workers. Furthermore, annual media celebrations in honor of the Chicago Martyrs were also supported by these

study circles and the anarchist press. The first media celebration in Lima, organized primarily by the Federation of Baker Workers Staff Peru, took lace in nineteen oh five, highlight an international working class solidarity and the struggle for the eight hour workday, while honoring Peru's first worker martyr, and to the dedication of anarchist leaders, publications, and study circles, the early years of Peruvian anarchism and labor organization laid the

groundwork for a movement committed to justice and dignity for all workers. We can say that by nineteen eleven anarchist cynicalism had truly firmly taken route. Why because this was the year of the first general strike in Peru by the urban working class, spearheaded by anarcho synicalists. In March nineteen eleven, five hundred workers at the US owned Vitarite cotton mill initiated a strike demanding higher wages, a reduction of the work day from thirteen to ten hours, and

the elimination of the night shift. And I found these demands very interesting because I'm imagining even now people back then saying, you know, how lazy can you be? You know you only want to work ten hours? Like, come on, some of us, some of us are putting in sixteen, seventeen, eighteen hours, pick up, pick up the slack.

IF and I just fl air. And they don't have any funding, right because everyone's so dirt poor that like that there isn't much surplus to contribute to their children's education. And they have once they've taken care of their subsistence needs. And there's this line in the book which for whatever reason, it's just like a line I aspire to write something

that's beautiful. It's the Ruty was very fond of children, and so he risked his life robbing banks to fund their education, which is like, I just love the pivot from like he liked kids and therefore he conducted arm bank robbery throughout the world.

But he would do it to to like prove sure everyone that he wasn't stealing for his own personal benefit. They'd be like, we get this to this school and we bought some textbooks and like that. You know, they needed school lunches, so we got some sacks of rice and bananas, and like, as you can see, the entire money from this bank heightst has been redistributed, and we're off to another country to do the same.

we have to. So here we go. Okay, we're back, and yeah, you're telling me about their their twenty nine day general strike or the strike rather than a general strike.

continued to gain momentum in nineteen twelve nineteen thirteen. In October nineteen twelve, the La Protest group succeeded in forming the first Workers Regional Federation of Peru, united various worker resistance societies modeled after Argentina's Workers Regional Federation. The FORP, as it was also called, advocated for both immediate improvements

and long term social revolution, even to unite workers across Peru. Unfortunately, as is the case with many workers struggles in this time, economic instability and state hostelity during World War One led to the disillusion of the FRP in nineteen sixteen. Thankfully, this setback was temporary. Between nineteen sixteen and nineteen nineteen, Anacosynicolus redouble their efforts, focusing on organizing both urban and

rural workers. Following the death of Manuel Gonzalez Prada nineteen nineteen, worker run union presses emerged, spreading anarchosynicalist ideas and replace in earlier anarchist publications. This renewed activity strengthened the labor move lead entity establishment of new labor federations and the revival of the FORP, and with the deteriorating conditions during the war years and real wages fallen sharply, they had

to be a wave of strikes in nineteen eighteen. The most significant strike occurred in December nineteen eighteen b nearly twenty nine hundred textile workers demanded an eight hour workday, finally making some progress.

Of course, the state has like the state has grown exponentially stronger.

its coercive violence against you. And like that's how all

of these these winds occur. But it doesn't happen without organization, without community, without like all the things that they had built in Peru, right like before they did their first strike, they had to have confidence that their strike woul succeed, and presumably a strike fund and a means to collectively support the people who weren't getting paid and they have to build all that and then like these things can kind of cascade once the once the movement has a strong base.

the factory. Although they were eventually dislodged by troops, their active resistance demonstrated their determination and boldness. It isn't that fascinating that these workers were willing to seize the mill they had worked at because the mansion plan and closing it down. They were willing to take control of ath place and work at it and you know, couldn't contribute to the economy. But the troops were mobilized to ensure that they did not exercise autonomy as workers to self

organize their own labor. It's either under management or out of a or there's no working for yourself or working as a collective. Also, in nineteen twenty one, the FORP was replaced by the Local Workers Federation or FOL, which lashed out against the government's legal rules against strikes. So in nineteen twenty President Leaguiya put forward a new constitution with very strict provisions to regulate this wave of strikes and to put the labor conflicts under arbitration by the state.

And so the Local Workers Federation the FOL, which had replaced the FORP in nineteen twenty one, lashed out at this government's legal ruse and vowed to completely ignore it. At the time, as well, alongside the labor struggles, Anaqua Syncalists were struggling to transform culture. Contrary to the idea that the f WEL neglected cultural issues, evident shows they actively developed as work in class culture. Their strategy was a war of position against rule elites, even to create

a counterculture that challenged the dominant bourgeois values. At the nineteen twenty one FOL Congress, workers affirmed the importance of both economic improvements and cultural uplift, which led to the establishment of initiatives like a worker's daily newspaper, a popular library, and various cultural associations. One key example was the central musical Obrero de Lima, founded in nineteen twenty two, which

used music to promote workers' rights and solilarity. Workers also participated in social events like the Fiesta de la plant a secular festival designed to compete with Christian holidays and promote class unity. They also held Madia celebrations and organized tributes for foreign comrades. Moreover, the FOL supported the creation of popular universities to educate workers and foster cultural and

political awareness. Meanwhile, also in the late nineteen tens and nineteen twenties, the southern highlands of Peru saw the emerging of a dynamic network of anarchostynicalist movements. The network thrived amid the burgeoning will export economy. The will trade's expansion spurred economic links and infrastructural development, which turned Arakeeper into a key economic center and the hub of the anarchisyndicalist network in the region. Aracosynicalism and Araqkeeper was influenced by

four major factors. A radical liberal press, the labor movement and Lima, immigrant anarchists and cross border connections with Chilean anachosynicalists influenced by thinkers like Manuel Gonzales Prado, intellectuals, artisans, critique, Arakeepers, conservative society through radical publications such as Lariete and Bandera Roja.

These radical ideas burned significant actions like Atraqueper's first major strikes in nineteen oh two, the inaugural media celebration in nineteen oh six, and the establishment of pivotal organizations such as the Worker's Social Center of Araqkeeper and the Worker Coalition of the Neighborhoods. The labor movement in Lima, along

with influenzers Argentina and Chile, further inspired Attkeepers workers. By December nineteen eighteen, motivated by reports of workers struggles abroad, Artisans and Workers and Arakeeper, founder of Society of Workers and Mutual Assistants, the SOSM. In July nineteen nineteen, following Lema's example, at Keeper's main labor organizations established a committee to combat the rising cost of living. When the demands were ignored, they too launched a general strike, which lasted

eight days and received widespread support. While some wage and benefit demands were met, many of the committee's requests remained unaddressed. So after the general strike, Atkeeper's workers founded the Arakeeper

Worker Federation to advocate for their rights and demands. Further, that federation was one of numerous unions and federations, either being the Local Worker Federation of Arakeeper or Fuller, which emerged between nineteen nineteen to nineteen twenty six in response to calls from the fr Repeats enhanced the worker's capacity for direct action against capitalists and state depression. Like their count parts in Lima, at A Keepers, anarchistynicalists employed direct

action to achieve both immediate and long term goals. The protests against a railway tariff hike in nineteen twenty three pressure the government enough to suspend the increase, but nineteen twenty five was perhaps their most pivotal year because the Popular Workers Assembly, which is an ad hoc coalition of anarchistnicalist groups to at a Keeper and Lima called for a general strike against the Road Conscription Law, which required adult males to register and to work on unpaid state

infrastructure projects for upward of twelve days per year. For the Assembly, this was more than just an unfailed law. This was a symbol of the state's utter disregard for the working class. As a strike unfolded, the authorities sought to crush the movement, arrest in labor leaders and attempting

to dismantle the anarchist organization's influence. But even with only a small industrial sector and a relatively small population, at a Keeper's labor movement demonstrated a remarkable level of class consciousness and solidarity beyond strike to use a variety of methods to build solidarity and consciousness among workers, from worker libraries to football clubs. One key figure in this movement was Ramon Rossignole, a Spanish architect and passionate anarcho syndic list.

Arriving an araqueper in nineteen nineteen, Russignole turned his office into a hub of anarchist thought at activism. His influence was profound as he trained future leaders like Jacinto Leendo and Francisco Ramos, who would become central figures in the labor movement. Roussignol's efforts extended beyond traditional activism. He also founded a popular university in the footsteps of Francisco Ferrer, and it stuve as a place for workers to receive

education and become politically conscious. Endo, a key port city in Peru, the influence of the International Workers of the World was particularly strong. Louis Armando Trivigno, a key Chilean IWW leader, published a series of influential articles in a newspaper called Labor Testa in nineteen twenty two. He extolled the virtues the IWW's methods and called for international solidarity

among workers. He was best received right in Moyendo, where by early nineteen twenty five, maritime workers from Chile had established close and secretive tie to the local Peruvian workers. Under the cover of darkness, they held clandestine meetings and an old house at Ailey Street. These meetings would lead to the formation of a local IWW branch right in Moyendo. But it wasn't just a meeting of the minds, but of the shared struggles and victories of the workers that

sevented these ties. In February nineteen twenty five, a popular general strike in Moyendo saw workers fighting back against unjust practices by British owned companies. The strike was a massive success, and the solidarity from Chile and IWW members bolstered the Approvian workers' resolve. The government's response the anarchist synicalist movement was severe there on the spread of what they saw as Bolshevik ideas. They cracked down hard on the Moyendo

labor movement. Security forces were deployed to suppressed protests and activists were arrested or reported to Chile. Of course, government repression efforts were not fully successful due to resilience of loose, flexible and decentralized organizing the seeds of anarchistniclists thought had already taken route. Throughout nineteen twenty six and beyond, the labor movement and Moyendo continued to be a site of

struggle and resistance. Workers engage in protests and work stoppages, driven a by the ideas of direct action and social justice that have been nurtured through the interaction with Chilean Wobblies.

and conditions. His work, along with that of other provincial migrants like Esequiel or Viola, bridged the gap between the urban anarchosynicalists and the rural indigenous communities. Reviola was a passionate advocate for both indigenous rights and the broader anarchosynicalist course, pushing back against the paternalism of the state toward indigenous community and connecting the struggles of workers and peasants alike. He spoke out against bourgeois pigs Yankee imperialism, all while

encouraging pride in one's indigeneity. Alongside Reviola, Salazar and Ayulo would also guide the SEPT and the Provian region of Indian Workers Federation toward anarchist syndicuist ideology, organization, and tactics. Even after his untimely death in nineteen twenty five, with Viewler's legacy continued to inspire anarchists and indigenous movements. Indigenous leaders and activists have been grown fed up with the abuse of practices of local authorities and the gaminalists, the

rural bosses who exploited the peasants. Pedro Jose Rada Igama, the Minister of Government and Police at the time, blamed these uprisings on known agitators. He claimed that these agitators were convincing the indigenous people that they rode conscription law and other municipal laws were designed to oppress them, even though the indigenous people could see for themselves the effects of the law. Both the anarchists and the indigenous organizers had laid the crown work, but it was the people

themselves who chose not to accept such state impositions. Uprisings broke out across Cutsco and Puno District authorities had to suspend the conscription several provinces due to the intense resistance.

The sheer force of the crackdown was so extreme that the city mayor and the municipal council had to appeal to President Leaguya for the suspension of the law, and they succeeded at least temporarily until July nineteen twenty six, and as soon as the law was reinstated, the Popular Assembly reignited the resistance, leaving went as first issuing direct threats to the officials enforcing the law, noting that they had the home addresses of the Conscription Council and was

not responsible for any potential consequences of their actions.

nineteen twenties. Despite increasing state repression, the anarchists Sanrachist Nicholas did not let up for as long as they could, so over the first three decades of the nineteen hundreds, anarchist syndicalism in Peru spread thanks to a mix of factors, the distribution of radical ideas through publications, the influence of activists from other countries, and most importantly, the work of

local organizers, most prominently in Lima Kalau. Despite facing immense challenges and a significant decline by the end of the nineteen twenties, the movement laid the groundwork for future labor politics. Former Arachas cynicalists joined new political parties and an effort to carry forward their ideals, compromising a long way, so

the influence didn't fully disappear, but it did transform. Still, their spirit lived on somewhat in the ongoing fight for justice and equality in Peru, one that continues.

There has been some good reporting, and like, there's always going to be right wing disinformation anytime you talk about the border. Right, just today, Border Patrol released video of a woman falling to her death from the border wall. Border Patrol agents stood there for twenty four minutes watching

her struggle. There was a ladder, and they decided to watch her struggle until she died as she fell, and then she died well watching this like objectively tragic thing, right, Like when we think about how we get to fascism, we get to fascism when my taxes pay people to stand there and watch a woman die rather than do

a single thing to help her. And then a bunch of fuck wits on the internet immediately start excusing this like it's it's so predictable that it was going to happen, and I'm just once again disgusted by the whole fucking apparatus. It's the border, I guess. So I want to talk about the things that have changed, right, and I want to talk we'll sort of start Boy outlining who Kamale

is with respect to the aborder. So everything she took over from Biden, Kamala has been sort of offering more platitudes than specifics, right like her campaign is mostly based on vibes. Like I went to her campaign website to see what her stances were on the border. It is not mentioned. I think that's notable. But recently, in some speeches she did offer some concrete ideas of what her border policy might look like. So I'm going to start

with her campaign ad. This ad incidentally opens with what I'm pretty sure is a drone shot from Campo, California. I've taken pictures in reverse of that shot hundreds of times. You can find them on my website. Slate bought some of them off me. Maybe a month or two ago, No, not even like, maybe maybe two or three weeks ago, I guess. I watched a mother breastfeed her five month old child, maybe a couple of miles from there. It was one hundred and five degrees. We were able to

give them water. I saw someone in severe hypothermia right very hot. We were able to call them off. I spoke to a Sudanese family who were really struggling with making this long walk. They have to make out there. None of that shit made it into the Karmela border advert, right, of course not. So I'm just going to play this advert for you, Shuen on the border. The choice is simple.

Donald Trump blocked money to stop human traffickers. Kamala Harris prosecuted trans national gang members and got them sentenced to prison. Trump is trying to avoid being sentenced to prison. There's two choices in this election, the one who will fix a broken immigration system and the one who's trying to stop her.

being a cop is also being lazy. So I want to play some stuff that she said in Atlanta this week.

walk the walk. That's what you just heard, right, And then she goes on to reference Quavo, which is cool and normal. So let's talk about that leadership, and let's talk about the bill she's proposing. Right. This is a bipartisan bill that was proposed last year and that didn't succeed. Right, it's the one that Democrats are making a big fuss about.

Republicans getting the border bill. It's one of the only good things they've ever done, actually, because it represented a massive right wood swing from where Democrats have previously been on immigration. In the bill, DHS could close the border if border patrol encountered four thousand or more migrants on

average over a seven day period. The border would then have to be shut down if encounters reached a seven day average of five thousand, or if they exceeded eighty five hundred in a single day.

And this is important because under title forty two, which I made a series about last year that you can listen to, I would like it if you did, people can be returned to Mexico. And as you'll see, and under this proposal, people can be returned to Mexico and then they will try and come back because most of the people coming to our border are not from Mexico. Nor do they have roots in Mexico, nor can they

be safe in Mexico. So they will try and come back, and they will try and come back in a different place, in a more remote place, and that will result in a higher risk to their lives making that journey. Right, So, eighty five hundred individuals across the whole border doesn't mean it to have them five hundred people. But yes, those numbers are reachable.

and I think that that is a problem. So when it's closed, quote unquote, now, we can't close the border right like a physically we cannot be We're not going to close the border and be like Okay, Mexico. No tomatoes, Okay, No tourists can come into Orlando now, right that that's not what it's about. Is open to capital and is open to wealthy people. All we're doing is closing it to the people who most need a help, that being

people seeking asylum. Right, So when it's quote unquote closed, they would still process fourteen hundred migrants through ports of entry. That would presumably be people arriving using CBP one, which is a fatally flawed app which doesn't work for black folks, which has been hacked. All the appointments are sold booked up month in advance. You can only use it north of Mexico City. It's a complete mess. Every single migrant I have encountered has tried to use CBP one and

given up. It's not even available in that many languages, right, I think is English, Spanish, and Haitian creole. Right now, Well, it's ludicrous to suggest that this is accessible, and it doesn't work very well on Samsung phones. I have a pra a foil. I guess a foyer out to CBP about that. But you know, maybe in six years, after like several court cases, I'll get it back. But I know that people are buying iPhones migrant advocates both in Mexico City and north of there to allow migrants to

access the app. They're trying to help them overcome these hurdles, right, but like, fucking come on, you know, we've got the entire US government here and it's my friends trying to get five bucks from from you know whoever to buy an iPhone so migrants can share it, Like it's obscene. Only unaccompanied miners would be processed if they between ports of entry, right, So that's people under the age of eighteen without their folks, anyone who tried to cross between

ports of entry. So port of entry is when you cross the border with your passport and you go through an office at support of entry. Right, So if you cross in another fashion over a river, over a wall, around a wall, under a wall, through a wall, just across the desert where there isn't a wall, that's between ports of entries. If anyone tries two or more times, then during a border emergency, they will be barred from the United States for a period I think it's a year.

I should note that this bill didn't pass, but Biden did write an executive order setting an arbitry cap twenty five hundred encounters per day, which you will notice is lower. And it removed the requirement that border patrol ask migrants if they fear persecution. So this is really important. It's called a shout test. And the difference here is between me saying and ensuring you've just come across the border, are you here because you fear persecution? Can you not

safely go home? And me just saying get in the fucking van, and you having to articulate that you fear persecution, right, Which is that requires them to know that they have to articulate it. It requires them to be able to articulate it in a language it's intelligible to the officer or whoever's interviewing them. Right, it's a much higher barrier. And in both cases, right, you could have the same person and they could be rejected because they didn't pass

this so called shout test. It's ridiculous. It's a really bullshit workaround for someone who is clearly eligible for asylum, right. Yeah, And like any good faith actor wants to find out if that person is going to be persecuted when they

go home. And so moving to a shout test like you are consciously saying some people would and to send home they will fucking die, or they will be tortured, or they will face persecution of other means, right, because they didn't articulate in the right words their fear of persecution. And it's just there is not a good faith argument for this. It's just get numbers down at the cost of human suffering. So in this case, right, I have

met migrants with pretty rock solid claims. I don't want to go into the details of their cases too much. I will in the future, but like you know, I'm out at the border a lot, and I'm out in the back country there a lot, and I try and help people whenever I can. I talk to them about

their claims. And I'm not going to ask someone to justify their trauma to me with seventeen documents, right, But some of them have shown me things which I do believe would would be a very cast iron assilum claim, and they seem to be since Biden's executive order just getting booted back across the border, so he kind of worked around that part of the bill failing. But let's look at what else is in it. So if the

bill that Harris is saying she will reintroduce. Of course she herself can't, right, it's a legislative act or senator or how over the House would The bill would limit border closures to two hundred and seventy days, two hundred and twenty five days, and one hundred and eighty days for the first three years, which no, there's no limit in the Biden executive order, So I guess that's better. I guess I mean fucking two hundred and seventy days when you can't claim asylum, that's a lot of days.

There's also funding a lot of funding for more border patrol agents, of course, more asylum officers, as well as more than one hundred judges. We do need to move people through the immigration system, but a lot more pressingly, we need to open legal passways that are not walking across the desert and passing a shout test. It would mandate detaining migrants so they try to enter the US outside of ports of entry, depending their asylum claim. So

this is really big. Actually, it's going to result in a massive increase in the amount of asylum detention beds we need. The bill contains funding for another ten thousand more beds will probably end up needing more than that. But all of these beds are not in state run facilities, right, and private facilities. ICE coordinates with it's cour civic. It's people who when Biden first came into office, he wrote he wrote an executive order about getting rid of private prisons.

These are the private prisons. This is how we reallocated money to those same people doing this terrible thing, right, which is locking people up for profit. I've heard terrible stories about the conditions in some of these detention centers. And this is the guy who ran on and bragged about closing down private prisons, sending more money to private prisons just for migrants dot citizens because apparently their rights don't matter as much, their lives don't matter as much.

Talking of things that don't matter, Sharin, should we take an at break? That was beautiful, James, thank you. So we're back, and I want to talk about what Harris has done as VP, which is they put her on this root causes beat right, what she's supposed to go after the root causes of migration. So I want to start with this message that she sent to the people of Guatemala.

Knowing that the people who are here for generations, they want to stay, they don't want to leave, but they need opportunity, they need assistance, they need support.

tuberculosis coming into the United States. An element of Title forty two of the United States Code it contains this. The idea was never to use it as a de facto block on asylum, which is what the Trump administration did for a year and the Biden administration did for nearly three years. The Bidens Registration did it for much much longer. This ended in May of twenty twenty three, and it was used. They called it catch and release, right.

It was used to bounce people straight back. As we spoke about before.

We should. I didn't see a single elected official from the Democrat Party. I guess fucking Jim Desmond turned up, but I wish he wouldn't. He turned up, told lies about who paid for the aid, and then forced his in turn to apologize for it when a bunch of people turned up at his office. Really great integrity. I didn't see a single Democrat for the months that border patrol held thousands of people in open air attention without food, water, or shelter, and for the months of my friends and

I took care of them instead. What was doing was trying to connect business leaders with economies in Central America to quote create jobs. Right. She has some success with a Japanese car factor in Guatemala and a Swiss coffee processor buying more beans and committing to more coffee purchases. Right. But this shit does not work and it has never worked. Right. Obviously, my position on global economics is not the same as hers.

But we can't trickle down the causes of migration. We can't do this with like a rising tide levels or boat GDP stuff. Even if we do buy this kind of freakonomics tier bullshit, it doesn't matter because the change is going to take decades to come.

the largest contribution to the climate change. Right, But this idea of like trickle down economics to stop migration, it doesn't address the issue that most of the migrants are no longer coming from the places she's going, right, So she's worked pretty extensively in the Northern Triangle, Guatemala, Hondoras, in El Salvador. These are places which sent a lot of migrants. May be in the earlier Barber administration, but

that's not the case anymore. Right, those are not typically places I see migrants from, right, I see migrants from Venezuela, and we're going to get a lot more of those. I see migrants from Turkey, many of them, but not all of them, Kurdish. I see migrants from North Africa. I see migrants from the Sahel. I see migrants from India. I don't particularly see people from the Northern Triangle. So the idea that like lifting the economy in the Northern

Triangle is going to move the needle. It's just not. Even if we buy the idea that it's possible, I don't think it is. So that's calmer. Let's take a look at Donald Trump. I guess I should give people a trigger warning I'm only going to include a little bit of Donald Trump audio here, but yeah, you can tap the skit button if you don't want to hear

Donald Trump talking. So, Donald Trump's policies largely are in response to things that are not real or proposing things that the president or Congress cannot do, or that the president cannot do without the support of Congress. So his first thing is talking about ending birthright citizenship. This is not a thing that he can do by executive order, right. This is an amendment to the Constitution that requires an

amendment to the Constitution to party back. Now, you can mend the constitution, but I don't think you'd ever get support for ending birth right citizenship. Right. This has been the case since after the Civil War, and it exists to stop people disenfranchising the children of formally enslaved people.

of which will also profit the illegal alien parents. This policy is a reward for breaking the laws of the United States and is obviously a magnet helping draw the flood of illegals across our borders. They come by the millions and millions and minions.

US immigration system. I remember that. Well, that sounds familiar. Yes, okay, yeah, so like you'll meet people almost everywhere I go. I tend not to go to countries that are highly represented in the US immigration system, right, those being countries that find it easier for people to get visas like h one B's right because they are more economically maybe close to the United States and have educational credentials that translate across.

So the Trump administration had made the diversity visa program it's such a massive cluster fuck that it effectively didn't work. And the way that this happened was because you don't just win the green card lottery and they mail a green cards to your house, like come on over, Bud, you win the lottery, and that gives you the right to go to the EMBAS set to do an interview, and then you make the application. Right then the check you off on any checklist you might be on, all

the stuff that would normally apply to a migrant. It's not like an amnust visa. And what the Trump administration did was make it very hard for people to get these appointments, especially during COVID and this has been the case with the Bide administration as well. They get the lowest priority now the cambuc and appointment that other people's stuff gets to sort of overtake them in the line, right, because you only have a year from receiving it to

claiming it. De facto. This means that people don't get it right, So we are not fifty five thousand people are not coming because of the diversity visa. Even if they were, this is not very many people. And like it's just Trump. I don't know, maybe he saw the phrase diversity and became triggered. But it's a weird little bugbear, which I guess if you can focus on weird little things.

But still, the diversity visa is great. The people I know who often most deserve visas people who can't even afford to make the trip right to walk here or you know, if you're not in the continental Americas, it's a lot more expensive you have to fly. I guess you could take a vote. But some of those people. I thank my friend who driving all around Iraq is applying for a diversity visa, and like, I really hope

he gets it. Lovely man. Trump also has this buck there about DHS paying benefits to quote illegal aliens.

care to learn the difference. Even people who have legal status face a range of hurdles, like sometimes they have a forty quarter work bar for example, right, so that it means you have to have been working for forty periods of three months consecutively. Again, this is kind of He might be talking about something called the public charge rule, which can interfere with your citizenship or visa application if you've taken certain times of benefits. So maybe he's looking

to make that a little bit broader. But again it's really unclear, and it's kind of identity politics s grifting. The next thing is we're getting towards QAnon territory. Now, great, I.

were not exemptions for vaccinated people. It's very obvious that they use Title forty two cynically as an immigration law. That is not what it is. Also deporting someone back to the situation they were trafficked from. Maybe not smart, like maybe maybe especially a miner who is trafficked here, maybe we could help them, you know, one of the richest countries the manager has ever seen. Maybe not just bumping them straight back to that country, maybe showing a

little bit of compassion. Human trafficking is a problem, but this is not the solution. So Harris kind of touts her prosecutorial experience when she talks about human trafficking. She's actually been better than some not punishing people who were trafficked, right, So I was reading that at one point she asked prosecutors not to use the term teenage prostitute because like,

that's not really a thing. What we're seeing there is somebody who is being trafficked, right, or somebody who has been victimized to taken advantage of manipulated, and seeing them as perpetrators is fundamentally missing the fucking problem. And this is what the legal system does far too often, right, is it goes after the people who are the vactims, not the criminals. She twice brought criminal charges against backpage dot Com, which is a website. I guess what peop

book and like find escorts. I'm not familiar with these things, but I know that some sex workers were opposed to that because they felt it drove them kind of onto more underground platforms, which which were even more risky to them. But obviously if people were also being trafficked on this platform, So like her record, I guess it is somewhat mixed. You know what else is somewhat mixed? Shereen what James, it's the products and services that we get to support

this show. You know, sometimes it's the cops. Sometimes it's terrible coffee, sometimes it's gold. You never know what you're going to get. Ooh, we are backed, and we are back to one of Donald Trump's oldest chestnutes, and that would be his stupid wall right that he wants to build.

build the wall. He's continued to build the barrier, which is a wall. He has repaired other sections of war, he has upgraded sections of fence to wall. They're both doing this, right. There's maybe Donald Trump would do more of it, but sometimes I feel like his general and competence might prevent him from doing any more than Biden's. Like potent migrant. If they call it deterrents, right, deterrence through death, it is probably a better way of phrasing it.

Trump also talks about a total ban on taxpair dollars to give legal aid to undocumented people. Again, I'm not sure if he knows what he's talking about. I don't know what he's talking about. He might be referring to it. We have a program in San Diego County where San Diego County pays for some people to defend migrants who are detained by ICE, right so they can have access to a lawyer. ICE has responded to that by moving those people to Texas. Oh that makes sense, Yeah, yeah,

totally normal. Good, I'm glad we voted for the anti fascist guy. Everything's going great, exactly. You can listen to my episode about that if you want to know more about that. But I don't know if he means like they don't get public defenders if they're accused of a crime. Certainly.

that one, Like she is not proposing invading Mexico. So much of what Donald Trump says is insane and it doesn't make sense. So I wanted to look at some of the people who kind of lean on Trump, some of the people who might be a little bit more coherent right when it comes to crafting that policy. Right? Could it get Steven Mirror on the podcast sad? But we did get these people from the Texas Public Policy Foundation who Robert and Gare spoke to at the Republican

National Convention. So here's zem talking about visas and immigration.

the needs that we have. Make sure that you can you know, it's not about like what is the total number, But if we are needing labor, we needing people in these areas, you can you can kind of like as a dial, you can turn up and down in certain areas on certain visas. And so I think if you do have to first like stop the problem, and then you also have to make systemic changes that will overhaul the system and make a lot easier so that people are incentivised to actually do it the right way.

I wanted to see what Robert and Geh had asked some about this mass deportation seeing because I've seen some people holding like mass importations now sign at the RNC, and that's always a good sign that we're not sort of sidestepping into fascism. So let's hear what you said about that.

That's the first step, and then I think from there you can actually understand figure out what a reasonable time frame to do that is.

big crunch point. So what this means is taking people who have homes, lives, jobs, and families and tearing them away from one of those things and tending them back to a country that they may not have been to in decades, that they may never have been to at all, a place where they will undoubtedly face hardship, if not persecution, and certainly having lived here having family here will make them more likely to be ransomed or blackmailed or any

of these things that happened to migrants when they're deported. Right, this is pretty bleak. Like I guess Harris hasn't advocated for this, which seeing the amount of the amount of people who fucking respond to my tweets with your going home to like I A am a US citizen and b fuck you. They yeah all the time, all the time. Yeah, it's so funny. Okay, got a life, But yeah, it does seem that there is a wing of the Trump

And I talked to Trump people. I was in the mountains this weekend, like I was in Wyoming mincing about in the mountains. It's lovely, but in talk to some people and I've never really come across anyone who can like in the flesh. Maybe it's just because those people are so repulsive. I wouldn't talk to them, and it's probably quite likely. But advocated for this right, like this idea of mass deportations, Like like I said at the start of this show, like how does a country get

into full on fascism? It is this. It is my taxes and your taxes, and some of the people who are listening taxes paying for people who have done nothing wrong, right, who have lived here, who haven't done any crimes, who haven't hurt anyone, to be at our expense, expelled from their home, detained in a private prison, who's own a company, make massive donations to politicians, and then flown across the world at are expense, and then dumped into a country

where they no longer belong. And that is as close as we get, I think to like someone saying like send them to the camps without saying that, like, yeah, look, what was the Armenian genocide? The Armenian genocide was a mass deportation, right of people forced to walk across the desert and die on the way. Like if you don't think this Trump ship is fascist, like I really don't know what to do. It doesn't matter if it's fascist or not, right, Like this is the kind of rhetoric

that's genocidal. Like I don't want to argue about like Robert Preston and like different definitions because that doesn't matter. Like this shit is it is genocidal, It is dehumanizing migrants, which is been a project of the right wing news media and increasingly the liberal news media and also the Democrat Party now apparently as well as the Republicans. But this is a market step to the right. Both of

these are right. The Overton window has moved so far right on migration in the last eight years that it's almost an unrecognizable place. And I guess what I when I end up by saying what I always say about this is like the solution is not within the argument about who to vote foreh Like these are state policies.

These are also often set by the legislature, as we saw when Biden's board bill failed, right, and that would require a change in the legislature, Like there isn't a third party that can get a majority in the legislature

right now. So the way we fix this is ourselves, right like we are seeing in the UK right now, like violence towards Muslim people and itance towards masques, violence towards Islamic cultural centers and people stepping up to defend them like that is the only way we fix this is by stepping up and shouldering our responsibility to our communities, and people did that in the Trump administration to a degree, Like when I'm twenty eighteen, when I was down in

Tijuana looking after folks who were part of the caravan that Trump made a big spectacle in the midterms. People showed up, churches, showed up, a soccer mom showed up in minivans and helped us, and it was cool. The thing was fucked, but like, I respect that we look after those people, and that hasn't happened to as much of a degree since. And we've had more people than we had in twenty eighteen in the open air detention sites.

And so I guess where I want to end is whoever wins, it's still our responsibility to take care of migrants, because neither of them is going to And we are continuing with policies that will accelerate climate change, We are continuing with policies that will impoverish people all over the world and enriching people who are already super wealthy, and

those things will continue to drive migration. We can't change those things in an actionable amount of time, but what we can do is try our best to meet people who come here with Kindness and so yeah, I would urge you to do that. I guess if you want to volunteer, you can email Altro Lado It's ala Trelado dot org. Border Kindness always need your money, borderlind Relief Collective, always need your money. And those are always things that you can volunteer with or places you can say your

money if you don't have your time. But you can also organize in your own neighborhood. I'm speaking to some people today who are organizing in Maryland to take care of some Kurdish refugees who I know, like they weren't doing anything a year ago, right, they saw a need and they saw it being a met and they realized that they could meet it, and they've made a huge difference to people's lives. So like, wherever you are, there are migas in your community and you can do that too.

Welcome to it could happen here.

It's like you're caught between a rock and a hard place when discussing this topic, because if you point to an actual trend that you're seeing showing a genuine spike in anti Semitic incidents, there's like a subset of people who are very focused on the genocide in Gaza, very rightly so, but they might push back since claims of anti Semitism have been so conflated with any display of anti Zionist politics, or even worse, they might even question,

why are you talking about this when there's this other horrible thing going on right the actual genocide in Gaza. Now, I think, meanwhile, if you avoid this as a lesser or a non issue, if if you don't talk about these things. I would argue that actually strengthens the Zionist political project of tying Jewish safety solely to the state

of Israel. And in some ways, I think ignoring this entire issue legitimizes a degree of criticisms that are being leveled against these massive protests and calls for a ceasefire and justice in Palestine. So, I guess how long have you been putting together this book and how much did the war in Gaza this past year kind of change the scope of it as you were writing this?

Since Ben and then I both come from like a history of organizing a Palestine solidarity movement and me with Students for Justice Palestine on campus, then with the Jewish Voice for Peace. So we had seemed to basically firsthand how accusations of anti semitism basically leveled just constantly at Palastine solidarity protesters, and then also in research and covering the far right, seeing obviously the growth of anti Semitism in white nationalism, both in the US and internationally, and

that only increased increased over time. So we wanted to work on something that took that seriously and also sort of revive different traditions from the left that talk about anti semitism, whether it's anti fascism or different kind of Marxist trends or the Jewish left kind of bring it to one place, talk to other folks who are also taking it seriously, and weave that together. All of that is different. And before October seventh, because we were turning in the draft of a book like a matter of

days after October seventh happened, Oh wow. We went and talked to the publisher and we're like, well, the whole world just changed. I mean, we have to we have to make changes the beat it. And so we've made some and basically like address some questions there and I think you can kind of see the in the conclusion of like the very end of the book kind of where we cut it off in November December area and

sort of have acknowledge that things are different here. But I think that there's also bigger questions that we're talking about now that like we're doing interviews and writing articles and stuff afterwards about how that's changed. But a lot of this really I think one thing that's important is that because we make very clear, like very incredibly clear, the anti Zionism not the same as anti semitism, in a way, that conversation is the same as before, because

we're actually talking about where real anti Semitism lives. And if you look at the way that this course is now, particularly from groups like the Defamation League, is it's basically built entirely around, you know, attacking college protests, right, attacking these mass anti genocide demonstrations, right. And since that's so foundationally different than how we understand anti semitism, there's a way in which, like the conversation that has the book

is sort of the same. And what do you think about this, Ben.

immigrant xenophobia, Anti Semitism is deeply connected. Right, these George Soros conspiracies are being used by authoritarian leaders like Donald Trump and JB. Evans and the rest of them to build up the MAGA base and to attack the foundations of our multi racial democracy. And we've seen it have

deadly results for Jews and for other groups. You know, white nationalists, you know mass shooters who are motivated by anti semic conspiracy theories have attacked synagogues, have attacked Latin X communities like black communities, and so yeah, anti Semitism is part of that machinery of oppression. And so our book tries to reframe the conversation and give Justice Organizer a way to take back the conversation away from the right.

dominant population. That's slightly different with Jews, though that has been a component of some pieces of it historically is basically a narrative that people who feel disempowered then use to sort of like reclaim a sort of kind of populous energy. And a lot of ways it ends up being a place where folks are directed by people in power to put their class anger away from the actual

rule in class. So I think in a way, when people see anti semitism, they also recognize that there's legitimate class anger or legitimate like disenfranchisement, and I think that's actually troubling to sort of want to undermine that feeling always necessarily. I think there's also just the complexity of Jewish identity that's shifted over time, different populations, different communities, different politics, sometimes religious, sometimes more cultural, sometimes more ethnic.

That can make it confusing. So it's hard to use one model for understanding impression than projected onto this And so in a lot of ways, you kind of have to come at this question distinctly from kind of other forms of oppression. That's actually true of most forms of oppression. They have a lot of distinctiveness. But I think like you have to kind of learn about those contours. And again, I think part of it is also that this hasn't been a big part of the left conversation in the

last twenty or thirty years. It is to be more frequent that this would be like you know, maybe trainings and left spaces where people would talk about that. It just simply hasn't been the case that much recently, and so I think there's actually a big lack of just understanding of how to notice those things and to talk about them. And then I think weaponization has become such

it's not just such an overwhelming part of it. It's actually the dominating converse station on antisemitism, particularly in the US. So when you hear about anti semitism, it's overwhelmingly going to be directed by the center or the right, or

for institutions directed at Palestine solidarity movements. And again, people get heartened skin to that because they don't want to like give an inch on those sorts of things, and I totally understand why, and so I think that also has created that boundary of where examination would normally take place.

And I think it was DeSantis who just called all university protesters hamas, right, not saying that they're like Amas, but just literally saying that these people are like are Hamas, Like Hamas took over university tests. And meanwhile, you would be hard pressed to find anybody on this camp talking about, you know, this strong degree, especially considering DeSantis, the strong degree of anti Semitic people either involved in their own

campaigns or like their actual supporters. It was just a year ago where DeSantis's campaign staff released a video of him with the sonnet rat It's like com on, buddy. So it is interesting how how they've been able to try to weaponize those claims while completely ignoring like the structural anti semitism like baked into this new wave of nationalist politics that we're seeing in the United States.

she's using them both for the same purpose. And it's not only DeSantis, and they're right, I mean in Jonathan Green Black ahead of thedl I remember, like a few months ago, said that students of college campuses were Iranian proxies. And when you use that language, you're basically authorizing military

counterinsurgency against protesters. It's just it really puts Jews in danger, you know, not to mention Palestinians and the Muslims, you know, basically all groups, right, because sure there's occasionally a stray anti Semitic comment that shows up at protests, because anti

Semitism is part of our world. There's anti blackness, injustice movements, antiology gutsppistry, and anti Semitism, I'm sure, but that's no comparison to when you have like Elon Musk, the richest person in the world, one of the most powerful people in the world, saying that Jews are engaged in patriot against whites. Right, there's no comparisons in terms of power and threat level, So it's really making Jews less.

Rothschild's conspiracy theories or basically presenting kind of us in them populous narrative around theories about globalists and things like that. So there's really no comparison that we're talking about anti simpatism when it shows up on the left versus the really deeply inlaid way that it exists on the right.

And like Ben was saying, right now, we have a situation where the right is overwhelmingly united in support of Israel and using that as their evidence of support for Jews, and then pushing great replacement theory claims which are inherently anti Semitic on the one hand, or really kind of mobilizing Jews in their rhetoric for their own kind of geopolitical aims, which again is not based out of like

a deeply held love for Jews. It's either built on sort of a Christian Zionist eschatology or just simply an opportunistic use of this might already grew up to sort of push their other political values, which itself is kind of a deeply held anti Semitic way of treating the Jewish community. And so when we're looking at this, we can't let the rhetoric that's become the dominate actually stand for how we understand anti Semitism because it's been so politically motivated.

putting together like lists of incidents, like maps. And as I was putting together my piece looking at this uptic and anti Semitism a few months ago, I was, you know, looking through this ADL map and the amount of like equivocation between just a standard pro Palestine protest protest that I was present at, and I was like, this was a Jewish led protest, and having that be equivocated with acts of like actual like neo Nazi terrorism as well as acts of like genuine anti semitism from people on

the left. Basically it's resulting in like data poisoning, which makes it really hard to actually unpack some of these like larger issues that are that are facing both like Jewish people, people who are very concerned about Palestine and people who take like the threat of like you know, you know, far right nationalism quite seriously.

other things. And the way that they even set up the reporting system just privileges those kind of protests, so people it teaches, for example, they'll partner with the organizations and show people how to report, and so they'll end up mass reporting these protest events and then underreporting white

nationalist incidents or like violent incidents. So what you end up seeing in their data is that they've actually undercoded white nationalist events because of the way that they kind of set up the data, and they don't really track things like housing discrimination, workplace discrimination, and extews. Those kind

of things really don't fit into their model. So what you end up with is this kind of map that just privileges people saying from the River to the Sea is like this inherently anti Semitic meme, and then undercounts like what often Jews will report as what makes them feeling unsafe, comments of work, or actual pressures when buying homes, things like that, like that doesn't really show up. You've

experiences of Jews in prison, those don't show up. So you end up with this really skewed image on what it is, where you assume that the left is overwhelming the responsible party, and then it actually in visualizes a pretty growing force on the right, and even institutionally just like in structures of kind of like American culture. So it's really hard then to say, like, well, how do I know what's actually happening here? The adail's the largest organization.

Every organization then uses their data where am I going? It leads you in a really big kind of a gap in how to understand what's happening. So we can look at pretty clear evidence that there's a rise in anti Semitism by looking at things like street attacks or by looking at the rhetoric on the right, but it's hard to get like a clear picture of it because every organization is that's oriented looking at the left.

the radical left right. In the nineteen seventies, as global criticism of Israel's occupation mounted after the nineteen sixty seven you know, six Day War Group sixty, ADL look really pivoted further from whatever original mission they may have had about like genuinely countering bigotry to really becoming like Israel defense organizations, and so in the seventies and eighties, like you saw them spuying on anti apart side activists, You

saw them attacking Arab American you know, professors at universities. You saw them spying on acta even left than Jewish groups like New Jewish Agenda, you know. And so it's not only Jonathan Greenblatt, It's not only since October seventh. The d L has been playing this role for a long time, along with a whole lot of Christian Zionists and both sides of the US political establishment and the other career is setting like the stakes are extremely high.

The right and the center are trying to legislate their definition of anti Semitism, to destroy free speech and to protect his real's genocide.

against the genocide. And we saw this with the with the campus university protests. You saw this, you know, especially at Columbia of like a lot of a lot of these kids are Jewish people who are heavily involved in these protests and in calls to do a very extreme crackdown and investigations, It's hard to see how that's not just like calling for for our government to like further oppressed these Jewish people who don't like agree with one side's opinion on something.

you know, shutting down events with Jewish speakers. Right, So it's it's really like literally policing Jewish thought, right Like, we know, there's over a century of Jewish opposition to Zionism and Jewish solidarity with Palestinians, and from the very beginnings of the Zionist movement, which was originally a Christian movement in Christian Europe by the way, you know, and we've always had long traditions of Jews who have resisted it.

And so when the state is legislating saying only like a certain expression of Jewish identity is valid, that's also anti Semitism, right like.

being the case. And we kind of talked about this as like a good Jew bad Jew distinction, where like anti Semitism ends up being mobilized against whatever kind of the culture decides as a bad Jew or whatever the organization's decides, it's the bad version of a Jew, the kind of Jew that they don't want to actually deal with.

And this happens in this pro Israel consensus whereby the khu Nyahu, basically the far By coalition running Israel right now, builds alliances that they need around the world with far Bright parties and Hungary in South Asia, Indian with the Hindian Nationalism, with other places, and then those movements are pretty explicitly anti Semitic, therefore making Jews in various countries around the diaspora less and less safe, right, and so this sort of model of making Israel the bottom line

on defending against anti Semitism is one that strengthened the right, helped to build up Christian nationalism domestically, and then that creates this kind of general culture of unsafety for Jews where the only Jewish voices that are then held up are the ones that justify Christian nationalism on the one hand, like you'll see at the National Conservatism Conference, or ones who are so aggressively pro Israel that they're totally willing to partner with Christian science groups or the far right

wing of the Republican Party or national conservative parties in Europe. And so this ends up as a situation where like a increasing number of Jews, particularly in the US, or Jews around the left, which again is still disproportionately Jewish, feel increasingly targeted by the political consensus, and at the same time, this pro Israel rhetoric ends up being with the fact of sure by which anyone's kind of set to.

on like an inherent level. And this can also be coupled with this assumption that like every Jew is a secret Zionist until proven otherwise, and you have to like get every new Jewish person you meet to like prove to you that they're not secretly as Zionist, which is, you know, very antisemitic.

inherently evil. And I do believe it is worth discussing kind of the flip side of this, and I think avoiding talking about actual antisemitism on the left I think only serves to harm all of us, and because it is something that I think is happening, and I think should be talked about even if it makes people like uncomfortable. And I think it's a it is a mistake to assume that just because you're on the left, that you're like somehow immune to antisemitic thinking, whether purposeful or not.

Like like both of you mentioned, like we live in a society that has a great degree of structural anti Semitism, and a lot of these people, I think, who might be attending some of these protests or might just be posting online who knows, might not even be intentionally spreading anti Semitism, right, but in action, that's kind of what they're invoking through like ideas of like you know, the Zionist cabal that secretly controls all of the media, all

all of all of the government. You know, those types of things. We're starting to like invoke these like larger secretive organizations that are that are pre planning this whole thing. And like just to some degree from a lot of the discourse that you see, I feel like some people think they can just like control f Jews to Zionists, and like if you're able to control f Jews to Zionists and the sentence still works, that means that you're

doing it wrong. That means that you're probably approaching this from a problematic standpoint. And there's a whole bunch of aspects about this sort of thing that you do talk about in the book, like, you know, including identifying Judaism with Zionism and how that also only hurts all of us, including this like weird uptick in like Jewish race science that you're starting to see more and more of claiming that like all modern Jewish people only come from Europe.

And it's like there's just a whole bunch of this kind of stuff that we're all kind of pushing to the side. But I do believe it is like worth talking about in some degree because this is going to not only harm people who are calling for an end to the genocide in Gaza. I think it does like strengthen this notion that a lot of this and this project is built on, which is saying that we need Israel as a way to secure safety for Jewish people around the world.

on the other side, like liberating Palestine. But what you see oftentimes when you see a mooment grow really dramatically, really quickly, is that there's just not a kind of like common baseline understanding always of that, and conspiracy theories are a great way to fill the gap on them. Yeah,

and that's true of really any movement. It's just that, in particular, in this case, we have this long history of anti Semitic conspiracy theories about Jewish power in particular, and then we're talking about sort of like powerful political actors on the other and so making clear distinctions is just not there necessarily. So, you know, we talked with lots of folks that have been sort of litmus tested

when entering kind of less spaces about Zientism. I talk to folks where other organizers ask to see their passport before they're allowed to come to media's crazy. It's it's wild, and you think in most of the cases people we kind of identify that as being kind of wild. We

make a lot of distinctions. We talk about, like the sort of difference between talking about a Israel lobby organization like APAC and its power or kind of a vague diffuse Israel lobby that you know, control controls Western politics, that kind of thing.

ideas are a part of the culture. And you know, I've been around the left long enough to see like virulent transphobic ideas show up, to see like queer phobic is in general be very very present. There's no reason to believe that anti Semitism wouldn't show up here either. Where folks are sort of like consumed by anger, what people are looking for clear answers, what people are trying to identify that And I think the easy answer is

often to paper over it. And I think what we talk about here is that that exactly is what sort of pro Israel voices want in this case, is to know that the Left isn't good to deal with it, and so the alternative to that is to both like create like a sense of like how would we confront antisemitic institutions and where structural anti semitism comes from? And then also how do we deal with that internally? And we talk with a bunch of social movements that have

done that. Right, anti fascists are actually pretty used to talking about anti semitism when it shows up on the left. That's pretty common. Jewish left has talked about this historically.

There's other voices, So bringing that back and sort of making that a safe place to confront and then then figure out then where is it like you know, just a bad idea that you deal with and you talk about you have like education, and where do you draw lines where like you know, this is now not a person that's not allowed in or these are voices we can't partner with that kind of thing. I think that's something people work out on the ground.

And similarly, having like an anti Semitic conspiratorial view of like anti Zionism, that also will mask the root cause of Palestinian impression by distracting from like the like the very like real like geopolitical mechanisms that have caused this situation to take place, and distracting from that with like these tales of like you describe it as like innate

Jewish wickedness or a global Zionist power. And I think that's a really good understanding because people often, like I think, have a general idea that like, yeah, anti Semitism is like in a lot of ways used as a way to not fully confront like the mechanisms of capitalism, and realizing how you know, it's kind of a kind of like a similar situation with Palestine is a way for people to understand that a little bit easier and to like reiterate the point about how you know you're not

immune to anti semitism just because you're on the left right. Something else you also bring up in the book is like Marxist Leninism has a very mixed history with their relationship to anti Semitism, and I think you do see this with with with the degree of the discourse on

this issue. You know, if you compare you know, anarchist viewpoints on like statism and anti Zionism to a whole bunch of Marxist Leninists talking about this issue, I do believe there is you know, generally maybe more anti Semitic undertones among some of the more like statist communists. And I think you talk about like the Soviet Union's own oppression of Jewish people and kind of the continued programs that happened even after the end of World War Two.

the root causes of power. And that's really I think where if you want to develop like a structural understanding of anti Semitism and how it connects to capitalism and all the other systems of oppression, that's where you got to go, right Seeing how, especially in times of crisis and massive discontent like today, with the rise of nationalism, with you know, widespread alienation, that's when anti Semitism really rises and is mobilized by authoritarian and nationalists, you know leaders,

when there's millions of people who are are fed up that they don't have a job, they don't have any savings. They know the media is lying to them, they know that politicians don't represent them. That's when these conspiracy theories, you know, really take root on the right and on the left. And that's why you have you know, Trump and Steve Bannon and the rest of them, you know, saying, oh, go look at the globalists, Go look at George Soros, you go look at cultural Marxists.

might look like. So a few months ago, I was at the Emory University campus occupation and maybe like a week in or so, Enemy of the Pod Jackson Hinkle showed up in person along with Hawes and a few of those kind of like cronies. Right, These are people who are like conservative communists, mega communists. They're basically like Douganists or like third persists, and they basically become influencers that monetize the genocide and gaza for their own like

personal political profile. So this guy showed up one night and no one really knew what exactly to do, Like people knew who he was. There was people talking with organizers, and like organizers tried to talk with him and be like, hey, can you like not be here and he's like, well, no, I want to be here because blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. And you know, certain people would try to get into like political arguments with him, which is I think is completely useless. And it was. It was

kind of a weird situation. And then we learned that he was slated to speak at an event the next day. Now it's unclear if he was kind of hijacking this event or if he was actually invited to speak, but regardless, he was going to show up and make some kind of speech at an event later that next day. So some people put together this flyer kind of going through Hinkle's politics, his history of anti semitism, rabid queer phobia, racism, all these things that explain kind of who he actually

is as a person. And these flyers were distributed that morning, like before before he was slated to speak around the venue. As he went up on stage, a decent number of people in the audience who had these flyers protested to be like no, like you can't be here. He was escorted out of the building, and then he was escorted off of campus. I think this was a very effective way of handling a situation like this. It didn't give him like an opportunity for like extra clicks.

this kind of general call to stop the genocide in Gaza. Meanwhile, a few weeks ago, there were protests in DC as net Nyahu was speaking to Congress, and there's this video going around of people like graffitiing the fake liberty bell with like just pro Palestine slogans and stuff, and like, everyone's freaking out about this. Not everybody, you know, a

certain section of political people, we're freaking outbout this. A whole bunch of other people were like, Okay, well it's graffiti on a fake bell.

of destroys any ability to cultivate forward momentum. It's like they're doing it just so that Democrats will be pressured into condemning it to reinforce like their own hopelessness, performative spiral of doing nothing but edgie graffiti as political praxis, And I see this as kind of a general pattern of people trying to establish themselves as like the most radical and using that as a weapon against anyone else.

And it's just like a form of political posturing. It's it's hardly any different from posting a black square on Instagram. They don't want any actual movement or any actual change. They want to be the coolest, most correct people as

the world ends. It's kind of like a cowardly way out because, as you point out in the book, it's kind of hell to actually have to deal with and work with people who have some degree of like morally compromised politics, and that actually requires like caring about the ends, but it's the means that make you look cool. Things like this are kind of bound to happen. At any kind of protest that has more than, like, you know, fifty people, right, there's going to be someone who does

something that the main protest is not aligned with. And on that note, like what advice would you have to people who are attending these protests and you see someone who maybe does something that's a little bit questionable whether that be you know, like harassing just a random like

visibly Jewish person, or you know, writing graffiti on a synagogue. Right, these things that are like really not helpful and actually kind of do display a degree of maybe like like like coded anti Semitic motivation.

that were arrested by cops, yeah, pretty brutally and then detained. Right, So there actually was these attacking like a Jewish contingent of like religious figures totally. I think also there's been a number of examples, I think where folks really just aren't prepared for something. And I think this is actually sort of a long conversation people should have on the left. I remember years ago, I was with a group that

created sort of like an accountability document. The idea was is that if something happens in an organization, it often just organization. If there's interpersonal issues, if there's like interpersonal trauma or assault, things like that, and so getting out in front of it and just like having a sense of like how you want to deal with things, and like having had consensus amongst folks with like this is like appropriate behavior, this is how we want to handle stuff.

That's always a strong thing to do. But at did George I think it was at George Washington University campus at the end of April. Patrick Casey, who's formerly of Identity Europa and the American Identity Movement, showed up at the encampment and wanted to talk to people, want to ask them questions and that kind of thing. And people were totally obliged him. They were in photos with them, let him take video. It's because they didn't know who

he was. Yeah, right, in reality, he didn't actually find anyone that was going to basically support his vision. He stopped people asked, you know, will you allow right wing anti zionists here? They basically said no. He did find one person with a hat that said Israel did nine to eleven, who then told him that the Jews projected Christ. But he was also kind of on the edges of the encampment. Sure, the reality is what happened was a white nationalist came into an encampment and took photos of

use and posted them on a white nationalist website. That's what happened, you know. So there actually was anti semitism. It affected the Jews of the encampment, but no one know who it was. And I think the flip side of that is having partners with groups that actually do know who Patrick Casey is and be able to say, oh, that guy is not here, it's not legitimate. I think with someone like hinkele Maga communists, that's really confusing to

people group. I mean, that's why he does it, Like it's a duginous and kind of grave zone types and this kind of version of authoritarian kind of like right leading right coded so called communists. It's there literally to confuse people and to bridge the gaps between the right and the left, and so again pilding that base of people talking to them, having like internal trainings about how this stuff works, and like, what these groups are? I

think that's always going to be a good thing. We talked with one organizer who had an organization that had put together a training for other groups on anti semitism and invited all these groups to come, and you know, wanted to get feedback on the training. So they did the training and everyone kind of like thanked them and then went on to ask them questions. And the questions

were exceedingly anti Semitic. It was things like, well, how do you talk about the New York housing market when clearly Jews.

never made Jews safer. We have right now a system where Israeli nationalism is supposed to be the primary vessel for Jewish safety. I don't know about you, but when I look at Israel, I don't think to myself, what a tremendously bumps of safe Jews? Like this, we have a situation that I don't think the political solutions actually offer Jewish safety and instead just create like more and

more social division and more and more social hierarchy. So we have to kind of look at the left and how to build a left that can confront anti Semitism, and that is really the only option we're being given.

stop what's going on. And I think like people have this like inclination that maybe we shouldn't talk about it, maybe we should just like try to ignore it because it's uncomfortable or it might like hurt the cause. And

I think that's just absolutely reversed. And I think, like you said, like making making inroads with like anti fascist researchers to help, like I to fy you know, when these things are happening, who bad actors might be, you know, people that might try to trojan horse certain issues to kind of alter a popular movement. Is all great ways to start, Ben, Did you have any other other kind of thoughts on how to handle this like unique political moment.

this is definitely like there's an anti Semitism here. And I actually like went up and like talked to the person and they were like really nice, and you know, I explained to them, like, you know, there's a thing called the Bible which is an anti Semitic myth that's harm juice for centuries that is like feased on Christian children's blood, and that like it seems like that image of the Israeli soldier is like seems to like have a big nose and that's kind of like a hy

stereotype from Europe. And they were like, oh, I didn't really know these things. They took the sign down and left feeling like it was a good conversation, and so like things like that, I think there's some understandable fear, like among Jewish people that you might see signs like this at rallies, and when you do, I think, just like trying to have conversations, it doesn't always go well,

but often it does. And I just think, like you know, for any marginalized group or form of oppression, the more that people just deep in their understanding of like what anti Semitism is how it shows up what some of these these tropes are.

so we should be clear. And I also think, like you're saying, the fact that so often, like atmusations of anti semitism are weaponized against our movements makes people don't want to talk about it, makes people think, oh, this is just a right wing issue, or if we talk about it, or we're just lending treat ince to the right.

that's just a failure right there. And so it's really incumbent on people to sort of try and move past that and confront those things, because that's the only way that like social movements can actually gain kind of efficacy. And the other thing is that they're directly tied to other forms of oppression. If you look at like the all out assault on trans healthcare and transtitutions right now, it's overwhelming using anti Semitic conspiracy theories as sort of

the scaffolding to hold it together. Absolutely, And this has been historically true about anti blackness in the US and the other forms of oppression, and so these things are intertwined. So I think it's important just to acknowledge that like anti Semitism is not like just a Jewish problem or affect Jewish people. It's really baked into these kind of interlocking systems of oppression. So we should see it as

a way of confronting other things as well. And to make that, can I give it value or can value to confront on its own terms?

lot of hope. Along with the growth of the left, you know, more broadly right surging to the streets in support of Palestine, we're seeing like new generations and folks across all generations and Jewish communities who are building new ritual modalities, new modes of Jewish identity, new politics, who are really questioning old ways of doing things and really building a Jewish future beyond nationalism and militarism, and connecting

our struggles with all other struggles as they've long been connected, you know, like Jewish left has been around for a long time. And so yeah, we're really living at a historic moment, both around this issue and around all of our movements in general. So that gives me a lot of hope.

of them. So I think that's a great place to do it, and also kind of requesting them at libraries, sort of like pointing folks to both of those things. So that's a great way to support the book.

We're going to get more into him next week. But the thing that I wanted to sort of start our discussion about the vice presidential candidates with is attempting to reconcile something that I've seen a lot of discussion about and sort of I don't know, kind of confusion to some extent about about how do you actually make sense of the sort of two halves of Tim Walls's record, right which, on the one hand, he's signing a bunch of extremely progressive, sort of welfared legislation while being the

governor of Minnesota, including things like universal free school lunch. I said it was lunch of breakfast.

lest we forget started in Minnesota. Yeah, that's where the Third Precinct burned, and also using the police to sort of like horribly brutalize protesters against Line three, which is an oil pipeline through a bunch of indigenous land that probably I don't know, we're probably two years out from like an unbelievably horrific oil spill coming out of it that everyone's gonna go, how can we possibly have predicted this?

It only had spilled a million times before, et cetera, et cetera, and that walls like rammed through and had the people who were resisting it like horribly beaten by a cop. So how do you sort of reconcile these

two halves of this guy's record. And there's like a local politics explanation which I see bandied about a lot, which is true to some extent, and that explanation is that he's not really a progressive and he's mostly kind of a moderate who she's going along with a pro fairly progressive Minnesota legislature and is getting credit for just like signing bills. And that's kind of true, but it's also I think ultimately a cop out, because we are on year about one hundred and forty of the welfare

state and this shit keeps happening every single time. And what's really sort of at stake here analytically is that the relationship between the welfare state and violence is significantly deeper than the record of one guy. And so today what we're going to be doing is not really talking

about Tim Walls so much. What we're going to be doing is we're going to be going back through some of the history of social democracy and trying to understand how it became entangled with the sort of use of force with police violence, because I think there's a story there that's been completely buried by the tidal wave of

just like I don't know whatever walls takes. And you know, I think presidential elections are something that has a tendency to just destroy everyone's analytical capacity for like two years. So yes, let's resist that and go do something interesting. Yeah, okay, Yeah, So I think the place to start with this is this is a place that we start I think not infrequent amount on this show, or at least I do.

And that's the sort of original debates from you know, about the eighteen thirties through roughly the eighteen seventies early eighteen eighties, when it changes about what socialism was going to be. There's always been to some extent, like a bunch of different kind of understandings of it. But something that you know, what you'd call the sort of left wing of the Democrats, which is like everyone at that point, right,

and the anarchists kind of agree about. And something that Mars agrees about with sort of the anarchists at the time is that socialism is you know, it's the free association of producers, right, you know, it is the working class abolishing itself, but then also like being the people who directly run the new society that's sort of brought about by this thing without sort of the stage or sort of political mediation.

Bibegone era that nobody needs anymore. And in this period, it's very clear that socialism is we're just directly controlling the musa production and it's directly democratically managing their lives. But this becomes less clear as the eighteen hundreds go on. Something that David Grayer points out, and I think I've quoted this on the show before, but it's important here. While this is sort of going on, right, there's two kind of trends in the development of the state and

the development of sort of socialist ideology. One is a move in the eighteen seventies and eighteen eighties, socialists start watching states build railroads and this drives them completely nuts. It just obliterates their brains. It's like this and the post office just like absolutely nuke their brains, and they start going, Okay, hold on, but what if instead of workers directly managing their affairs and having you know, workers coordinating like the production of society, what if instead the

state did that? And socialism was literally when the state

did things. And this is something that like even Angles is like pretty hostile to in the sense that like he's a status to some extent, but he also is very wary of doing things like calling state onwn enterprises socialism, right because like, well, no, obviously that's not necessarily true, because like you could just have capitalists state owned enterprises like lots of places US and includingly importantly sort of Bismarck's Germany in this period, which we will come back to in a second.

Right that that had been the original socialist project is being eaten away on one hand from its own parties. But then on the other hand, as sort of David Error points out, the capitalist class realizes that all of these sort of autonomous institutions that the working class is building, like your unions and your giant political parties have their own sort of welfare system. The state realizes that you can replicate these and use it like a direct buy

off to stop these people from revolting. I'm going to read a passage from David Graver's The Utopia of Rules outovon Bismarck's reaction to Socialist electoral success in eighteen seventy eight was twofold on the one hand, banned the Socialist Party, trade unions, and leftist newspapers on the other, while when this proved ineffective, socialist candidates continued to run and win as independents to create a top down alternative to the

free schools, workers associations, friendly societies, libraries, theaters, and the large process of building socialism from below. This took the form of a program of social insurance for unemployment, health and disability, etc.

loyalties day as conservative nationalist project. When leff Ring regimes later did take path, the template had already been established, and almost invariably they took the same top down approach, incorporating locally organized clinics, libraries, mutual banking initiatives, workers education centers and the like into the administrative structure of the state.

He is the guy who creates the nation of Germany and thus will forever live in infamy. Is one of the most evil people in human history. The line directly from him to Hitler is incredibly straight. But the second part of this is what social democratic politics turns into, right, which is this effort to sort of central all of the sort of autonomous institutions that the working classic constructed and to centralize all of that activity into the state.

and the cerb democratic elements fanish entirely. I am less interested in that here, and I am more interested in the extent to which it ties all of these things to state violence. Now, James, do you know what else is tied to state violence?

of that. But in the late eighteen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds, everyone who is like a Marxist in any stripe is a social democrat. And this is true equally of reformists like Burnstein and also people like Lenin right, like the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks, both are splits from like the social Democratic Labor Party is it social Labor Party was I forget the actual name of the Party of the Swim, but it was a social democratic party of like Russia.

both just two variants of the same thing. And you can see this most clearly ether ways they come to power, the way they embark on this project of centralizing power, violence, production, and the organization of society into the state. Both of them take power by machine gunning their enemies, and the left with the newfound power of the state. Alongside this

sort of Russian revolution, there is the German Revolution. And the German Revolution is defeated when the Social Democratic Party of Germany, which had been the Party of angles right like Marx like write stuff about their platform like this is the premier social democratic party in the world. They take power by stopping the revolution, slaughtering the communists and using the sort of proto fascist Freikorps to just kill

them all. This is how Rose Luxembourg is killed. So the first social democratic government to come to power in Europe since I guess technically there was about two months in eighteen forty eight when there were also Democrats in France, but that lasted very very brief amount of time, you know, So the first time they come to power is in Germany.

And in Germany they come to power in this blood bath that you know, sort of destroys like the rest of this like armed left and attempting to centralize politics and military power in the hands of the state. This is how they defeat the revolutionary movements. In Russia. Basically

the same process happens. Right, There's the first revolution, which is the February Revolution nine seventeen, and then the Bolsheviks take power in the Second Revolution, and the moment the Bolsheviks take power, they spend basically the entire rest of the Russian Revolution in the Russian Civil War just straight up slaughtering every single other left wing faction in the entirety of Russia, which ends in sort of the massacre beyond Oh yeah, oh yeah, they tell a lot of

Ukrainian leftist they are killing anarchists from like azuer Baijan to like fucking Spain, like a prominent appearance.

sort of opposition to any kind of like autonomous working class. Right, for the Bolsheviks, the working class is going to be directly subordinated to the Bolshevik Party and to that platform, and any dvash or any attempt to sort of like manage yourself like autonomously is just going to be stamped out, right, And Lenin's attempt to do this is going to be sort of like followed by Stalin doing this even more.

social democracy. There's also sort of more liberal forms of this, right, like FDR does not conceive of himself as a social democrat, like he thinks of himself as a liberal when the emergan liberal tradition is a bizarre one. But you know, we actually talked about this in my episode about the time that Wizards of the Coast, the creators of magic, the Gatherery deployed the Pikerton's against the guy for revealing what was in.

a thing there. But when Lenin is talking about trade union consciousness, the thing that Lenin believes is that they need like middle class petite bourgeois like fucking theorists to come in and teach them what socialism is. And this is an explicit part of their theory, right, And this is the same sort of paternalisms that they have to be like led, even the sort of vanguard working class needs to be led by these like theorists who I don't know, emerge from like Lenin's friend group in exile

in Switzerland or whatever. And FDR's sort of policy works as I think, it's not really understood how similar FDR's stuff is to like how the New Deal's seen at the time even by people like outside of the country as compared to like the others from massive social up people say he plays supposed to sort of Soviet com

munism or even like fascism. Like Nehru, the guy who is going to become like the founding Prime Minister of India, has this whole thing in like nineteen forty one where he's look at the New Deal and he's going, this is either going to produce communism or fascism.

Because before this, the US, I mean, we've talked about sort of Blair Mountain on behind the Bachelors before, right, like there are just open wars between the like literally capitalist armies and sort of union armies, armies formed by labor unions, not like the Union army, Like you need.

And unfortunately for sort of the rest of us, Right, if you're going to maintain like a capitalist system, somebody has to be pulling the triggers, and that's now the police instead of these sort of like private armies. And the other part about this bargain is that the unions also have to basically disband their armies, right because the miners are blurboutain right, they have like seventeen thousand guys, like all of them have rifles. They will go out

and they will fight. They have machine guns like they have cannons.

path and season their land. And the contradiction of this, right, the fact that like the people who nominally want sort of welfare state also normally are like revolted at the fact that they're burning millions of people alive, and like Vietnam, Cabodia and Laos, like, this contradiction is kind of what terrors a part of social democratic politics and what replaces it is. You know, like if social democracy is a carot and a stick, right, neoliberalism is just the stick.

It's just more prisons and hit you with the thing instead of this sort of like more genteel process of while we're still hitting you with the stick. But also, here are these handouts if you don't like oppose us. Yeah, so we've talked about these examples. I want to kind of move into some more modern examples of this because I think everything I've been saying is old, right, but this stuff is still happening today in the social democracies

that exist, right. Like one of the biggest examples of this is there's two kinds of social democracies that people point to, depending on where in the political spectrum they are.

One is like the Nordic countries, right. And this never worked on me because one of my foundational experiences, like as an activist when I was like a little baby at fifteen year old in twenty thirteen, was talking to someone who had a mounted cavalry charge done against them by the Swedish police because they were doing an anti fascist action and trampled by fucking horses because that's what

the state is. And you know, so like that's like kind of on the one hand, but the thing that we're seeing right now is, you know, the remains of the welfare state being paired with this incredible, like rabid anti immigrant violence, right. And this is the thing you see in places like France too, right, where you still sort of have the welfare state. It's also this unbelievable violence against sort of non white people and anyone who's trying

to like enter the country. Yeah, I think it's was it Sweden or was it Denmark that had these laws were like they would like seize the property if any immigrant who came into the country.

centralize the state? The answer is it starts enforcing its borders. Yeah, in order to sort of like create underclasses of incredibly dispossessed and incredibly battered and brutalized people who can be splitted for labor.

way worse than the US. Yeah, and this is true, and like fucking all of these places, right, Like this is surely how the crew worked in twenty twenty was because the Bolivian government kept just like handing money to the police over and over again, and the police like did a cue against them.

like moderate abolitionists. So these are the people who are you know, whose thing is like, Okay, we're going to defund the police and we're going to like reallocate their resources to like funding welfare programs. And this is like obviously this would be good. But if you know anything about what happened after twenty twenty, none of this stuff ever happened, right, No one ever defunded the police, right, Like, there was no sort.

this is what twenty twenty was, right. Twenty twenty was was the most serious uprising in the US, like the most serious challenge to the authority of the sort of draychnically anti black like settler American state, right, and it was something that promised something different and even in you know, and that meant that everyone, whether you were a fucking like hardline fascist or you know, you were Tim Walls, right, your one goal was to smash it and was to

deploy state violent. The state violence you had in your hands, which in this case was a National Guard, was to send them in to make sure that these people never fucking burden their police station again. And that's what happens.

we cannot allow this to happen. And I think we've seen that domestically to a degree in the US.