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Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's got to be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions.
Welcome to could happen here. I'm Andre Si Jeffy channel ANDRASM.
So today.
I wanted to really draw attention to the strategies of resistance that have marked the stories of the African diaspora. Of course, the diasporas is widespread on diverse, and you could find oscotad hundreds of millions in communities across the globe, largely to see impact of the trans Saharan, Transatlantic and Indian Ushan slave trees as well as voluntary migration. Many millions of stories could be told, but very few of
those stories have been told so far. My focus is really on the African diaspora in the Caribbean today and what strategies they used in their struggle and how those strategies could potentially be utilized today in our contemporary struggle.
So for some context, in case you know you just arrived on Earth a couple couple of years ago, enslaved Africans suffered truly deplorable conditions from the moment of capture, through the passage and the season in process, and to the last of their days on the field of the plantation. Yet in spite of the deplorable conditions enslaved people endured, resistance endured. It was both inevitable and constant, as even their enslavers recognized. Resistance, of course, began in Africa itself.
Enslaved people often fled to escape local captors who were seeking to profit from the demand for slaves. Entire villages would sometimes relocate to fortify their settlements to avoid capture. Veellion was common among captives as they weighted to board
ships during the initial loading and even on the high seas. Tragically, perhaps bravely, some choose to resist by taking their own lives, either during the journey or during the brutal season in process upon their arrival in the Caribbean on the plantation itself. Resistance took many forms, tailored to specific circumstances and opportunities, but acts of defiance were a constant throughout the history of slavery in the Caribbean.
While not all forms.
Of resistance were as overt as the famous revolutions and rebellions, each act played a role in shaping plantation society, undermining the institution of chattel slavery, and ultimately hastening its demise. We can classify these acts of resistance into three key categories, non cooperation, confrontation, and prefiguration. Non Cooperation involves the deliberate refusal to comply with those in power, using both overt
and COVID methods to protest against oppressive conditions. Confrontation is about direct and assertive engagement with oppressive forces, aiming to disrupt or undermine them. And prefiguration refuses a deliberate organization of future social relations, institutions, and practices in the present,
envisioning and enacting a better future. It's important to note that these categories, of course, often overlap into dynamics struggle against slavery, non cooperation, confrontation, prefiguration intertwined, embodying.
The seeds of revolution throughout history.
In fact, Wherever people are faced depressure, these forms of resistance have emerged.
The era of slavery in the Caribbean was no exception. Acts of non cooperation.
Were perhaps the most common form of resistance on the plantation. Non cooperation to many forms, often subtle yet impactful. Enslaved individuals would act carelessly, feign illness or pretend ignorance. These tactics slowed productivity and provided plausible explanations for accidents by sabotage and tools machinery. They further disrupted the operations of
the plantation. Arson was another method used to strike back against their pressors, causing significant damage to property and resources.
Secure in extra meat through.
Covid animal slaughter was a way for the enslaved to supplement their meager rations and exit a small measure of control over their own survival. And of course, running away was another powerful form of non cooperation. Individuals and small groups would escape for various reasons, to find psychological relief from the relentless oppression, to reunite with loved ones, to protest their harsh material conditions, or to carve out an
alternative way of life within the oppressive system. These escapes were not just about physical freedom. They were acts of defiance. They challenged the fundations of the plantation system. Modern day activists and workers often engage in so forms of non
cooperation to challenge capitalist structures and state authority. Just as in slave people would intentionally slow down or damage tools to reduce productivity, modern workers might engage in slow downs, work to rule actions, or even deliberate sabotage, which also falls into the next category of action. These actions aim to disrupt efficiency and profitability of capitalist enterprises, often as a form of protest against unfair labor practices or to
demand better working conditions. Pretended ignorance was, as I mentioned, a common tactic among enslave people to avoid the harsh demands of plantation labor. We might look at the quiet quittin folks who do the bare minimum required for their job, refusing to go above and beyond in order to avoid burnout and to resist the expectations that seek to exploit them.
Running away from plantations despite these fair consequences was a powerful form of non cooperation that of course sought to reclaim autonomy in modern times, though not equal valent strikes and walkouts silver similar purpose. Workers leave their positions to protest unfair conditions, risk and financial stability to demand systemic change. In the Plantation era, acts of confrontation involved direct assaults
on the system itself. Like I said before, the plant has lived in constant fear of revolt, and this fear was especially heightened during the Christmas season. What seemed like benign dances and festivities often disguised rebel oaths of secrecy. Poisoning was another faired form of confrontation, a subtle yet deadly alternative to open rebellion. The mere threat of conspiracies and plots, whether real or imagined, kept the colonial regime
perpetually on edge. Colonial legal systems were primarily designed to manage colonial property, which included enslaved people. These laws were harsh and allowed for severe punishments for any perceived transgressions. Enslaved individuals could face proof consequences for unauthorized movement, large gatherings, possessions of weapons, or practicing secret rituals. Master The art of subterfuge was thus crucial for survival. What does that
tell us about navigating our current legal context? While planters tried to soy scored among the enslaved by facilitating ethnic division by separating African born from Korean born, from dividing domestic and field laborers as put in skilled and unskilled workers, they stay people too about manipulated plantation politics. They carefully studied the personalities of their wide overlords, subtly provoking divisions
between bookkeepers, overseers, and owners. A Nanci the Spider Trickster, a popular West African folk tale character, became a hero, inspiring strategies of disguised satire, trickery, and deceit. Yet despite their cunning, many rebellions were quashed before they could even begin, and those that did spark were often brutally suppressed. The divisions fostered by the planter class between Creole and African
and slaved people hindered revolutionary efforts. While all revolts sought greater power and freedom, Africans typically desired all out war and the establishment of an African lifestyle apart from the colonies. In contrast, many Creoles the Caribbean born Africans aimed to modify the system to gain the rights of free wage laborers. Such conflicts helped foil revolts in barbaeos in sixty, maybe three Anti Guns seventeen thirty six, Saint quix In seventeen
fifty nine, and Jamaican in seventeen seventy six. What does that tell us about the risk of unresolved divisions when undertaken revolutionary action today. In the past, enslaved people used secret meetings and COVID planning to organize revolts, often disguised as social gatherings. Today activists can use in encrypto communication
or parties as staging grounds of political activism. Today, poisoning maybe off the table, but its evident that property destruction, including our sun, has persisted as a means of protest. The efficacy of that method protest is perhaps situationally dependent, but it certainly sends a message. Activists of today must confront legal systems, just as since slave people in the past needed to when descent is shaped against the statuscope. There's a time and place for court battles and bail funds,
but they are not lasting means of resistance. We do need to brainstorm more permanent means of liberation from this legal system. Finally, just as a NANSI, this FIA trixter issued as a symbol of clever resistance among the enslaved. We need stories and symbols that can just as potently in power. There's a time when Guy Fowk's masks served
as a powerful symbol of resistance. As a creative species are symbolic, species will always need those signals to guide and encourage us, to give us safety in numbers, in a sense of solidarity, even if such symbols alone are not inherently liberatory. Finally, acts of prefiguration may seem less
viable under their grim conditions. But even if they could not build the socio economic autonomy that characterizes robust modern prefigurative practices, enslaved people still managed to create networks of support and resilient cultures that offered respite in a world that sought to strip them of their humanity. Mutual aid was truly the name of the game in the face of social death. They cultivated ties of real and fictive kinship.
Since biological families were often torn apart by callous slaveholders, with mother child units being the most common familiar arrangement, many and slaved Africans extended their concept of family beyond biological kin These networks of fictive kinship provided emotional support, protection, and a sense of belonging, helping to preserve their humanity in the midst of suffering. An example of this resilience can be seen in the rotating savings and credit associations
that developed among enslaved women. Despite their marginal earnings from market activities, they pool their resources and rotated lump sums of money to each other in acts of mutual aid, all without their master's permission. This practice not only provided financial support, but also reinforce the bonds.
Of community and cooperation.
Similarly, today's marginalized communities create networks of solidarity, mutual aid groups, and community centers to support each other in the face of systemic injustices such as poverty, discrimination, and violence. Such communities also often redefine family to include chosen families provide any emotional support and care outside traditional family structures, particularly
within LGBTQ plus communities and other marginalized groups. Today, grassroots organizations and cooperatives continue the tradition of economic cooperation, impowerant marginalized groups to economic solidarity, microfinance initiatives, and community based lending. It's important that we don't look at these in isolation. Confrontation alone is not enough, non cooperation alone is not enough, and of course prefiguration alone.
Is not enough.
So let's look back at diasphoric history to those who did bring those actions together, sometimes successfully maroonage the active and slave people escaping plantations to establish independent communities, to find the Maroon experience deep within forests and nestled in mountains. Across the Caribbean, thousands of Maroons forged their own path shape in history through resilience and defiance. As runaways, they
were inherently non cooperative. As warriors, they directly confronted plantation society, and as community builders they aim to prefigure a better future for themselves and their descendants. Maroon societies varied widely, shaped by local geography, available resources, and their relationship with
colonial powers. They thrived in rainforests and mountainous terrains, which offered natural defenses and facilitated guerrilla warfare tactics Led by captains charged with defense, Maroon settlements prioritized vigilance, fortification, and constant readiness. They communicated with neighboring communities, practiced evasive maneuvers,
and engaged in both defensive and offensive strategies. Prior to the Haitian Revolution, Francois Macandial and his network of enslaved and Maroon allies struck fear into the heart of Saintomique. They targeted plantation owners with acts of sabotage and arson, challenging colonial authority with daring raids and strategic strikes. Beyond warfare, Maroon communities were self sufficient, producing or acquiring what they
needed through raids, trade, or cultivation. The trader with pirates, merchants, and other Maroon settlements across islands, while hunting, fishing, and farming for sustenance. Yet their precarious existence often necessitated careful population management. Some communities struggled with maintaining numbers, while others cautiously accepted new recruits, balancing growth with the risk of attracting clonial attention.
It is unfortunately not all good.
In the history, though, despite Faerce resistance, some Marone communities opted for peace treaties with colonial powers, ensuring their survival over generations. However, these treaties often came at a high cost, seeding autonomy in exchange relative peace and limited rights under colonial rule. The seventeen three to nine Treaty in Jamaica, for instance, imposed British control over the Maroons, restricting their land rights and obligating them to capture and return their
fellow escaped slaves. While many Maroon communities ultimately succumbed to colonial pressure or were unable to remain hidden, some notably in Jamaican Surnam inture to this day, regardless of their fate, all Maroon communities defied the clonial order, asserting the independence and capability even slaved Africans to conceive and pursue freedom. What lessons can we take from their struggle? How can
we apply their strategy in our resistance today? The struggle of the Maroons offers us some useful lessons, in my opinion, when they succeeded, it was through strong community ties and solidarity. They built networks of support and cooperation that were crucial for survival. Today, we need to be fostering unity among diverse groups facing systemic oppressure. Building alliances across different communities strengthens our collective power and our resilience against common adversaries.
Another lesson we can glean is that the Maroons adapt to their strategies to the local terrain and resources available. Similarly, modern resistance movements can benefit from strategic adaptation to current
socio political landscapes. This includes utilizing technology for communication an organization understand the media and digital as well as the physical landscape, as well as adapt in tactics to fit specific context, because not every tactic is going to make sense in every situation, and we can't be going through the emotions. Also, as the Maroon communities sort of establish self sufficiency as much as possible in their struggle, they cannot adequately resist if they were still fully or mostly
dependent on the beasts they were fighting. They needed to be producing their own food, goods and resources. Otherwise any all our confrontation would be suicidally premature. We as movements, need to prioritize building sustainable practices and self reliant economies to reduce our alliance and oppressive systems. We cannot confront these systems if we are still dependent on them. We will not succeed. If so, the Maroons were also flexible.
They shifted between defensive and offensive strategies as their circumstances demanded. Movements can benefit from maintaining that kind of flexibility in tactics. We cannot be all offensive, we cannot be all defensive. We must strike a balance. Finally, though this is projection on my part, I believe some of the Maroons would have had long term vision despite their immediate challenges. I believe they maintained a long term vision of freedom and
autonomy that sustain their resistance over generations. Contemporary movements can benefit from a similar long term perspective, recognizing that meaningful change often requires sustained effort and commitment across time. That's all I have for today, All power to all the people. You can follow me on YouTube at androism and on patreon dot com slash Same Truth.
Peace.
Hi everyone, it's me James and I am joined today by Kirsty Zitlau, who is a border water drop volunteer I've turn some water rops together, and also an immigration writer. And we're going to talk about ice transferring people in their detention and generally the sort of post a rival process that migrants asylum seeker specifically faced when they come to the United States. Welcome to the.
Show, Thank you, thanks for having me, Thanks for being here.
So I think to start out with people when I speak to them like in my day to day life, are very unaware of the situations that migrants face when it comes to obtaining legal representation. Right, So maybe we could start off by just explaining that this isn't like if you're accused of a crime rate in theory it's a civil proceeding, but also they'll lock you up, but
you don't get a public defender assigned to you. Right, So can you explain someone Let's say someone comes through the hole in the fence in Kumbo, right, they get detained at the o EDS, We give them a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and then they get taken out processed. What happens after that? So from when they come to three, what said in terms of their legal representation? How does it work?
Yes, so I'll address the street release folks as well as the people who are then taken to ice the attention. Yes, yeah, so I'll start with the street release folks. So they well, first, anybody who irregularly enters the United States not at a port of entry is subject to detention, not just by
border patrol, but by ICE. The fortunate situation, I mean, sorry, the lining, the silver lining of this, you know, entire awful situation is that there's so many people coming that there's not enough detention space to detain everybody, and so hence the street releases. So the people can then go directly to their family. They will go with a notice to a peer which starts their immigration court proceedings, which
was issued by Border Patrol. So immediately they have to navigate the immigration court system, starting with the fact that the notice to a peer might have a false date on it as far as their court date. So that's the first it's the first issue.
What does that mean when you say a false date, Like if they share up on that date, the hearing won't be happening.
So there's been a trend over the years to put to be decided as a hearing date on their notice to appear, which is the first document that says, hey, you're now we can put in immigration court proceedings. We'll send you a later notice to your address that you gave us of when you're actually going to have that hearing, or rather the court will. So the immigration lawyer bar pushed real hard on this issue and said, no, this is BS. You need to put a date in time.
The reason they weren't is because they didn't want to take the time to coordinate with the courts to make sure that there's actually a judge on that date and time that they assign, so to satisfy the legal requirements that we've pushed for, they often will just put a fake date and time, So, in other words, they haven't done anything to verify whether there's actually a judge sitting at some court that day or time to hear their case.
Yeah, they're just making it up.
So this is exactly so.
This is of course incredibly confusing and very dangerous because they basically need an attorney immediately to explain this concept to them, because they first of all won't know how to look for when their actual court date is, which is a link that I don't think Border Patrol ever gives them. And then if they miss their actual court date then they will of course be ordered deported and the you know, then ICE is after them, and really they have no other options at that point. So really
the need for an attorney arises immediately. And often immigrants have been robbed, they've paid all their money to transnational immigration to criminal organizations, excuse me, so, and an asylum case is costly, so they have a right to an attorney, as you said, but only at their own expense. So this is a tremendous challenge off the bat, as you can imagine.
Yeah, and then just to further sort of go down that pathway, the attorney is paid for their own expense, but without an attorney they may not be able to obtain a work permit.
Right, So one hundred percent, I mean navigating the process on your own is as an immigrant, it just seems basically impossible to me. I mean, there's there's so much that even US as attorneys struggle with that it is, and it's evolving all the time. So even if you managed to submit your asylum application by yourself the process and then later submitting the work permit form and knowing where to send it and how to navigate uscis that's
I mean, like I said, it's difficult for us. I mean, let's just say I got a work permit with somebody else's photo on it the other day, so you know, so it's a total mess. And to have an immigrant and even navigate that process is it just seems impossible.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean I've no, I have not applied for asylum, but when I renewed my green card that myself and English is my first language. I have a PhD. I'm used to paperwork, and it was both scary and complicated, and exactly your whole future is resting on it. It's extremely anxiety.
By design too. I mean it's it's they haven't updated forms to become a resident since I mean, like the thirties or something, right, asked about it exactly exactly, and it's all just to make it a difficult as possible in the wait times and everything else.
Yeah, So how about the folks who go into ICE detention?
There?
So these are typically people, well, I mean that's just the thing. These days, there aren't the typical people who go into ICE attention. It's kind of it seems to me that certainly there's people who are mandatory detention, where if they have a prior deportation order or criminal or immigration history in this country, they will probably be detained. But I've also noticed a lot of racial profiling in
the detention. I have a few black clients right now in detention, and if they were white, I'm absolutely convinced they are not even white but Latino, they would have been released already. And one of them is a black Muslim man from Kenya and he's been called a suspected terrorist by ICE for six months or more that he's been into detention with zero proof whatsoever, and so they'll just hold them for that reason because he's a black
Muslim man. So these are often people with very meritorious cases, like for example, this man was an opposition party leader and recruiter back in Kenya. So these people just need I mean, whether they win or not win their case or not, can hinge on just being able to get representation, you know, because he's very intelligent and probably would have been able to put together a good case on his behalf. But the stats about people winning cases detained without attorneys
is very very low. So yeah, so then they have to work with a family member on the outside obviously to get a hold of an attorney. Not a lot of attorneys or all attorneys do detained work because it is so difficult to start with, I mean, access to your client is just so limited, and getting evidence, I mean, they have to have a reliable family and support network on the outside essentially to help them get evidence from their home country. I mean, how else do you do that?
Detained and so it's a lot of work coordinating as an attorney and so forth. So San Diego County saw that need and actually started a great program. I'm not exactly sure when it's starts arted, but apparently they weren't getting enough applicants and maybe it's been around for a
little bit, but they didn't know about it. And it's they set aside like five million dollars to specifically pay attorneys to represent people detained an O time ASIE, which is of course the big ice attention center in San Diego. So that caused there to be more attorneys, you know, or more or slightly more represented people at O time ASIE,
which was great. Yeah, because typically when I go in there, you know, this is just anecdotal evidence, you'll see a handful of attorneys, maybe a couple, maybe at most like five, and then you see all the detainees the immigrants sitting there, and there's clearly more than there are attorneys. So you know, I read a stat by the ALU that it's like something like seventy percent as of twenty twenty one did not have attorneys and detention centers.
Right, so they just won't be represented throughout that process exactly, and certainly like God forbid, you're a Muslim, Yeah, if you're a black Muslim man, you're like at the intersection of things that are going to have us sent.
Straight to jail exactly.
Just to briefly explain for people who have when we talk about ICE detention, what are we talking about, Like, what are the conditions and who is often operating these detention.
Centers excellent points. So these are for profit detention centers. So it is operated by ICE in conjunction with two large companies called Corcivic or Geogroup. And if you're not familiar with these companies, google them and you will immediately be horrified. Yeah, so it's a horrifying state of affairs. Essentially. One of the biggest things in one can google this
right now is the wrongful death suits and payouts. So literally the business model is to allow people to die detained as a cost of business rather than give them proper medical care or take them to the hospital and so forth. And they will pay out and they do pay out millions to families. And I've seen this in action, not that any of my clients died, but just the the gravity to which the health situation has to be in order to have a prayer of getting them out.
Yeah, it's it's very sad. Like I think one thing that I come back to now, like four years issue into a Biden administration is that like on one of his first decutive orders was he's going to end for profit prisons, and he never did shit about the ice detention, Like right from the outset there was like, these people do not have the same right to the people, and we don't care about them as.
Much, exactly exactly, and at this part well and at this point too, it's like, given that he's done a one eighty on anything that was pro immigrant or that he said he was going to do at the beginning, you kind of start to wonder, is he just being paid off by the same people, by a geogroup or cor civic you know they they contribute millions of dollars to whoever is running for president for good reason. So it makes you wonder from that aspect as well.
Yeah, like it certainly it was in his immigration reform built right between increase the amount of ice detention facility beds, us cells or whatever, how do you want to put that. Hopefully this advert that we're about to pivot to here is not for cour Civic Audio Group, but if it is, fuck them.
Amen.
All right, we are back and we're going to talk about this process advice relocating detainees. So this is something that you've actually you've done interview about recently, right A Pece written about it.
Yes, Yes, I did two interviews about it, just because it's an issue very close to my heart. For several reasons. Detained work is very very difficult, and just the fact that few attorneys do it. I mean more have now in light of the County program. But still it's very emotionally draining too. You see, you literally see the decline of the person in front of your eyes, both mentally and physically, and it's just it takes a lot out
of you. So these people need and deserve our presentation, and like I said, are often detained unjustly and have strong cases that they could actually win. So basically these people deserve representation and need it the most. I mean, they're basically the most marginalized out of any immigrant there is.
So for ICE to suddenly start transferring mass transferring, I might add, represented detainees when they never have in the past and they haven't their own memo from twenty twelve that says they shouldn't do this except for exigent circumstances, you know, like some and they describe it as some medical issue or something severe that requires it. It's just it's pretty obvious that this is just direct retaliation or just designed to get attorneys out of O Tai, because
there's been more of them in there. And we tend to make a stink and we tend to we tend to ask, hey, why haven't you given a decision on my client's requests to be really east and what's going on here? And we tend to send a lot of emails advocating for our clients, and we tend to be pains in the asses. And before this happened, I noticed that ICE was just not responding at all, whereas I had some relationship with the ICE agents that are at
the detention center. Just to back up, every client is assigned to a deportation officer, so you technically have somebody from ICE to communicate with, and they're supposed to be in charge of the person detained, you know, whether they're released or whether the treatment like any they're their point of contact. And so even under the Trump years, you'd be able to Yeah, you might have to follow up, but you'd be able to communicate with a couple of
them or some of them would do you know. And so I noticed in the past year or two that this is has just been kind of this scorched earth approach where they just won't.
Get back to you or yeah.
And they're also not responding to requests to have people released for just months and months and months despite attorneys asking. And so it doesn't surprise me the timing of this and that they would do this now that I'm reflecting
back on this, as well as the county program. There's more attorneys at O Tai Mesa now and so I mean essentially what happens is if the person is transferred, which they've all been transferred to places like I think Colorado is probably the best option, but generally like Louisiana, Mississippi, things like that. Texas is where my clients are currently.
So these are places where you can imagine there's a not a lot of quality immigration attorneys and b not a high chance of winning your case given the nature of the judges that are there.
Yeah, sod migrants articulate to me that they would not want to be in the fifth circuit exactly. Come here in the ninth circuit exactly. They're getting sent right back to the fifth circuit there exactly.
And that's where my clients are now. And one judge from Otai decided, who scolded me for suggesting that this was even by design. He told me to act more professional. He didn't say anything to the DA just attorney about what his client was doing. It told me to act more professional, changed venue for that client. I was talking about the Kenyan client, and so we're now in El Paso,
and thank god he has a strong case. But even then, I wonder, because that's it's I mean, if it's well known amongst migrants, you can imagine how badissy.
If it's someone who knows nothing of the US.
Yes, I mean, so it's just it's ludicrous that you have, you know, people pretending like judges, you know, just like this had to happen when you have you know, seventy percent of people you know. At least that's slightly dated, but still I don't think the percentage is that, even if it's fifty percent, why not unrepresented people? So to do this, it's just a very obvious, like fuck you. I mean, it's just there's no other way to to justify it.
Yeah, and like when that happens, right, so you have this this gentleman from Kenya who's who's been transferred to to Texas. That then you then have to travel to Texas right for his hearings to talk to meet with him.
Yeah, so that's the whole that's the whole big battle. And I have I have two different clients with two different experiences. So so he I will either have to appear via WebEx from my home. But then the judge now has two people remotely because my client's not an El Paso either, he's detained an ants in Texas, which is a blip about three hours away from Dallas or something.
So they and this is also by design, right, they put all these attention centers in the middle of nowhere because God forbid, the public sees that people seeking asylum are in prisons. So anyways, so both of us are
going to be remote if that's the case. So, I mean, I think there needs to be some personal contact and maybe if I can have some communication with the DHS council, I have to go to El Paso to give my clients the best chance of something, you know, otherwise we're both faces on this video with a with a fifth circuit judge, you know. So the other the flip side of the coin was that I have another client who was transferred and his trial is literally around the corner.
It's next week. So yeah, he was transferred four weeks before as individual hearings. So I filed something scathing, saying, judge, please don't consider changing venue. This is you know, yeah, he's been detained long enough. He's a twenty one year old by the way.
I mean, so.
DHS sheepishly filed something. So Counsel for ICE filed something saying, okay, well we're asked, we agree to that. We just asked that he could appear via WebEx from ants in Texas. Also, right, so now he's going to be a face on a screen. But I can be at o tie. But still, I mean, these are all significant disadvantages. I mean, judges are evaluating immigrants to see whether or not in their mind they're quote credible. That means do they think they're lying or not.
That's very hard to do on a video because you're looking for body language. You're looking for subtle things, you know. And also it's just like the human aspect of it is very important.
You know.
It's easier to deny asylum to somebody on a that it is somebody sitting in front of you. You know, there's so many there's so many small aspects, and so Ice claims like, oh, well, well you just you can communicate just fine, you know, you can commune. We'll offer you calls and even video calls. And I'm like, okay, you don't understand anything about being an attorney and what
it means to to actually represent clients. At the the person's final court hearing, they are asked to swear to the contents of not only their asylum application, but also all evidence they filed. And so if how on earth can you show them and sit with them to show them the evidence in person? You know that you can only do and personally. So it's just this whole concept that you can that you can even adequately lawyer remotely or over the phone. It's it's just it's not possible.
Yeah, and especially for people who are less you know, like I spent less time on Zoom than we have in the past four years.
Right exactly, And a lot of these people are are are traumatized, you know, and are you like, as an attorney, you need to build rapport with them, and you do that by meeting with them in person, otherwise they might not share vital information with you, you know. And and honestly, the family of the twenty one year old mainly hired me to be with him during his final hearing, and so now I can't even do that, you know, just to try to calm and you know, these people are petrified.
They've been through so much and now they have to talk about all of it in front of this American judge and a robe from a prison. Yeah, and I have to be their only ally is not even with them.
Yeah, And like there's understandably in a little country saying something on the phone or on a call might be a risk, right one hundred percent. You know, it takes I'm not saying it's not a risk doing it in this country. Like all of these things stack up against them.
I spend most of my time telling my clients, like, hey, what we discuss on the phone is attorney client privilege, Like nobody could use this even if they try, and it doesn't calm them down, because it's just they think they're being recorded, probably from their experiences in their home countries. And frankly, I don't even know if we're being recorded. I just know that it can't be you are, it
can't be used, you know. I mean, so, yeah, there's so many things that go into representing somebody who's detained, and I just knows all of this full well. So this is a very deliberate choice, and it's something we haven't seen before, like ever. I mean, everybody's pretty shocked by this.
Yeah, when did it begin, sort, I.
Want to say a couple months ago. But this mass transfer they did that sparked us to talk to the press and so forth was over Memorial Day weekend. So
they liked to do that too. I've noticed over holiday weekends because last year they were trying to deport a couple of my clients even though they had things pending, and they try to do it over the weekend and so on purpose, right, and so the client's families would call and be like, hey, he's being printed, like processed for being deported, and so we immediately Yeah, I had to do this twice a year ago, so I had to send two emails based documenting and ceasing the ICE
attorney being like hy, they have a pending XYZ case. It is unlawful to stop what you're doing immediately. But like, had we not been notified over the weekend and sent that email, they would have been deported despite having a k So this is the type of stuff that regularly happens. But it's very ballsy to me to transfer, Like I think it was probably like one hundred people or hundreds or something, you know, I mean over a Memorial Day weekend,
you know. And of course, oh, their memo, by the way, also says they're supposed to notify the attorneys, you know. I mean, I heard from frantic family members who are like, why the fuck am I getting a call from ants in Texas?
Oh?
Oh, and this is rich. You'll appreciate this. It wasn't even one transfer. They first went to Eden, Texas, which is another lovely place in Texas. And then a week later we're moved to this place called blue Bonnet because they have to give them pretty names, right, detention facility
at Antsen. Yeah, and so I had arranged a egal call it the first attach a facility and then had to like do it all, do this process all over again, and they ask you for everything but like your DNA in order to prove that you're their attorney, you know, to get this legal call. I mean, I spent two weeks just trying to figure out where my client was and these are two. Imagine this is sucked up like
all my time since Memorial Day. I mean, there's other clients, you know, I've I've been struggling to get to their cases. Like thankfully I haven't had too many deadlines, but I mean it's it's been brutal.
Yeah, that secks talking brutal, pointing. We have the brutal obligation to transfer to ads for a second time. So we're going to do that and then we're going to come back. All right, we're back. So we've heard about how ice A transferring people across to different different parts of the United States. What I wanted to talk about now was another recent development, which was Joe Biden's executive order,
not the very recent one on role in place. People have seen that, but it's one quote unquote closing the border. Can you explain, we haven't really seen that impact on the ground yet, but can you explain, these people are supposed to get essentially a document forbidding them from reentering for five years.
Correct, And it's not just any document, Yes, it's the
worst document. So it is an expedited removal which is a fancy term for a deportation order that when issued by Border Patrol CBP, carries with it a five year bar, and so that means you're not admissible in any way, shape or form to the United States, and if you try to re enter during that time period or even at any time irregularly, you will then be put in what's called withholding only proceedings, and that essentially means you were no longer eligible for anything, not even asylum, just
a very very difficult form of asylum, which is called withholding or protection of the Convention. It's torture, which is also very difficult to win. So that those are the two things you're stuck fighting. And then you are also mandatory attention, so there's no possibility of you getting out unless you're in your case, which is of course very
very difficult. So can I haven't seen this play out, you know, like we're saying, it's it's relatively new, and yeah, but I can imagine based on my experience and based on what all of us know, that like, people aren't gonna have any idea what this is, and they're gonna and plus there's desperation and other fact. I mean, they just came to the dairy end. They're not gonna let
a piece of paper stop them, you know. So, I mean, so these people are probably going to turn around and try again and end up being in this withholding only posture, which means they're now really screwed in terms of having a way difficult time winning any sort of relief and definitely detained, like they will not be released. I've had clients on occasion like every blue moon be released, but the way I is acting these days, I don't think
it'll happen. So one of the thoughts I had is is this justifying additional detention centers if we're now having going to have probably more of those types of people, But its just in general, I don't see there being a shortage of people they can detain, So I think.
Yeah, no, I think they Yeah. I don't think that we have an option in November to vote for a person who isn't going to build more prisons.
For refugees one hundred percent, one hundred percent, which is which is why. And I think that's something very you know, it can be you can take it and be like, Okay, I'm so depressed, you know, blah blah, there's nobody to vote for, like you know, because basically Biden has done, you know, gravitated so far to the right.
I called all the stuff that they waved it up in twenty twenty sod Trump will do this. Biden has story exactly right.
And so I don't even know that I called him Trump Light, but I don't even know if he's Trump light anymore. He's like more like Trump medium or almost there, you know.
So less racist speeches.
Exactly, Trump minus the racist speeches exactly. So it's just, I mean, so the way to look at this is that like literally we are their only hope. I mean, the government here is not only like not only gonna not save them from anything. They're in creating all these situations,
putting them in more peril. So it really behooves us to find all the different grassroots organizations, and there's there's so many of them that we can help and donate involundar teer our time too, because that's literally all these people have.
Yeah, so let's talk about that a bit, because something both you and I do as we participate in water drops, in in migrant aid of various kinds, welcome stations of the thing we've been doing recently. You know, you and I were out Now I'm just going to collapse on itself, but we were out in a place near the border. We were there when we met the two Mauritanian dudes.
You carried the Chinese exactly. Yeah, Yeah, it was so beautiful, right, Yeah, it was such a wonderful Like obviously it's pretty bleak that the guys aren't able to use one of his legs properly, and yeah, therefore two people who don't share a single word with him had to carry him. These two Mauritanian men met. I'll just rewind to tell the
whole story. Yeah, we were driving down the road and we kept meeting groups of Mauritanian refugees coming north, and we were able to help them by giving them water in quick interruption.
By the way, I looked up Mauritanian and unsurprisingly, they have female general mulation, child labor and basically any like it's just horrific capital punishments.
Yeah, gay people, right exactly. So these people, very very nice, just wanted mostly a bottle of water, and you know how far tw weekend surrounded to border Cotrol, which is what they intend to do. And they kept saying that there's a guy with a broken leg, and we were like, oh shit, like, but that's potentially fatal in this place that we're at. They just keep saying, go down the road,
you'll see him. So we keep going down the road and we come around the corner and there's two guys sort of eat and then a third guy in the middle of them with his hands over both their shoulders, right, and they're sort of humping him down the road. And it turns out this Chinese man only speaking Mandarin, he had like a brace, like an external fixation on his leg,
like like bolts through his leg and couldn't walk. And these dudes have been carrying him for two days and they couldn't she speak the same language like they didn't. They weren't able to communicate, and it was the most humane thing, and it made me just so ashamed that like these people, in a time of desperation for themselves, have taken the risk to help other people, and then here's our government just being like, screw you. If you don't belong here, we're going to put you straight in prison.
Or especially these these are mostly Muslim African men from Mauritania right there. They're generally sort of that that will be one of the more persecuted demographics. And perhaps you can talk about like how you got into participating in water drops and how other people could do so, or any any form of a direct mutual aid I supposed to says like advocacy.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I mean I think I think the main thing to take away is that it's easier to help or participate then one would think. You know, I think you look at this issue of immigration and it's so overwhelming right now, and it can be a bit like, oh god, you know, what can I possibly do? Or you know, and even if i'm you know, what difference am I making?
You know?
And it's just like I have the same struggles working as you know, an immigration attorney, because you're just like God, you see just the vast need and you know, you focus on the person in front of you, you know, And not to sound cheesy, but that's the life you can affect and so we're and all of us collectively have an impact more than we know, you know. So I think that's just the first thing to share. So
don't don't feel defeated and think that. Remember that if you have twenty extra bucks a month to spare, for example, like if you donate that to supplies for migrants, then that literally allows the work of water dropping to continue. And you know, that's the other side of the coin. If we can go out all we want, but if we don't have money or supplies to drop, then nothing gets done, you know. So if you live in any part of the country, really you can find a reputable organization,
you know, or BRC is a collective. I volunteer with Borderlands Relief Collective and every cent goes directly to the supplies that we drop, and that's a very it's huge tangible source of help. All of our supplies are consumed, as you know, within a week or so, we think, you know. So it's just there's so many different ways to to participate. There's organizations that allow you to talk to detained immigrants, you know, like Freedom for Immigrants or
you know, there's different ways you can help. If you want to communicate with them. There's also detention Resistance, who works with the people mainly in No Taimesa to help just provide even a source of support, just someone a human being to talk to, who can help them with little things like writing letters or putting money in their
account to be able to contact family members. I say little things, but those things are huge because if you can imagine being an immigrant in another country and you know somebody in that and you're in a prison, but somebody in that country or a few people are are
showing you love. I think at the end of the day, whether you're officially deported or when asylum or whatever, those are the things that stick with people because I know that they're going to remember that probably for the rest of their lives.
Yeah, And I think it's the least we can do to be welcoming with exactly exactly.
That's why the welcome stations that we do are so beautiful too, right, because it's just I mean, what we were doing that day when we met those two people or the three people rather, and it's just like they get they get a help a loving, helpful person as their first exposure to the United States, and then you know, I said, instead of border patrol, which makes them take off their shoelaces and treats them like you know.
Criminals, exactly exactly, and it's nice. I I've exchanged for numbers of those people and they're like, oh, you're the first American I met. You'll always be like my first American friend. Someone'sta the other day and I thought that was really sweet.
It's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing. I think about that all the time with my clients. You know, I'm just like God, I feel so fortunate to meet all these people, you know, from different countries. It's just and I'm embarrassed to say that I have to usually google where the country is, you know.
I mean, it's awful.
I don't know what our geography education was, but let's just say I didn't get much of it. But you know, just where am I going to meet people from Belize, from Kenya, from Trinidad, from Chad, you know, and be able to really share life with them to a certain extent or you know, I know their most vulnerable and awful experiences. I know their family, you know, or about their families and about them, and it's a really beautiful thing.
So it's just, you know, unfortunate. So to have to interact with them and in a prison is just you know, it's just it's just ridiculous, you know. But so that's why those welcome tables are I think so just pure and precious because at that moment there's no bullshit involved yet, there's no US government. It's just humans interacting with humans.
Yeah, it totally is really nice. It's one of the better things that I like to do. And yeah, if you if a replace where you can do it, you should do it. If you're not, it would be great if you get in your money. I am going to read as we finish up a plug for the sidewalk school Matamoros and they NOSA. I just want to like they are in desperate need the money right now. They do amazing work with people on both sides of the border. I've been on a panel with Felicia for UCLA that
you can find if you're good at googling things. It's on YouTube. It's the Allied Community Arts Brigade. UCLA hosted the panel, so if you if you search that and border panel, I'm sure you'll find it. And if you want to know more about the Sidewalk School. I recommend it, and we're joined there by people from Border Kindness and Alotlado, which are both excellent organizations working on the border here.
But the Sidewalk School are working with refugees and assigum seekers on both sides of the border in Matamoros and by Alsa so in Texas area, and they definately need your money. If you would like to support them, you can go to gofund dot me slash zero six CDOC seventy six and we'll include that in the notes of this podcast as well. Kasin, thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it.
Thank you, James.
Welcome to take it up and to here a show that today is very urgently about things falling apart in Kenya and how to put them back together again. I'm your host, Miya Long. What you're about to hear is an interview about the Kenyan protest that was recorded on Sunday, July twenty third. At time of recording, it is now Tuesday the twenty fifth, and in that two day span, the situation and Kenya has gotten significantly worse. Kenyan police
are firing live ammo into crowds of protesters. They've killed at least five people today. That numbers expected to rise as more protesters die in hospitals. The government has deployed the army and shut down much of the internet in an attempt to stop news from getting out. On Kenyan TV, political leaders called the protesters criminals and a threat to
national security. Meanwhile, protesters made good on their slogan occupied Parliament by storming and then partially burning down the parliament building. As politicians continue to meet their demands with bullets. What we've seen today is terrifying cops shooting live AMMO into churches, cops opening fire on people waiting for medical care. Meanwhile, to the fury of the protesters, Kenyan troops arrived today in Haiti to begin the US backed occupation of the country.
We spent this interview largely discussing the local Kenyan political leads, but this is also an international crisis. Much of the impetus for the brutal tax increases on basic goods came from an international monetary FUM bailout deal that required Kenya to increase its taxes to twenty five percent of the country's GDP. Thus Kenyans are being robbed twice, once by the Kenyan political masters of the cops shooting them in the streets, and again by the IMF and their neolibal
wealth extraction program. As the struggle continues. Let us now turn to our interview into a more optimistic time and movement to get a real understanding of what the protests are about. Welcome to it could happen here a podcast
where the here is currently Kenya. Yeah, I'm your host Miya Wong, and we're we're going to talk about a bunch of protests and a bunch of very very very interesting sort of political developments at Kenya that I think have gotten very distressingly little coverage in the sort of
like Anglophone maation media. And with me to talk about that is Justine Wanda's a stand up comedian, a political satirist, and a writer who's created Fake Book with Justine about well basically all the stuff that we're going to be talking about today are there are things you will see on this show. Justine. Welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me me. How are you doing?
Ah?
You know this is this This is one of those morning recordings so I'm a little bit unhinged, but it's okay. We're I'm really excited to talk to you. So yeah, yeah, I'm really excited to talk to you.
And I yeah.
So I think I think the place to start here is can you talk about So these protests are about an upcoming finance bill, So let's talk about what actually is this bill and what's in it?
Okay, So for me to be able to talk about the finance bill, I have to talk about the finance bill that was past last year.
Yeah, go for it.
So in twoy twenty three, we had a finance bill that was passed. Most of the financial last year had something called the housing Levy, which basically requires every single Kenyon who's employed to remove a little bit of their salary to go directly to pay for an account where they'll pull the money to build Kenyon's affordable houses. And in Kenya, house is not especially a crisis in rural
areas because most people have their own personal phones. The issue is usually the urban centers where housing is actually very expensive and it's it's very poorly infrastructured, like there's no water, sometimes there's no electricity in certain parts, like people have done a lot of illegal collection connections. So last year the bill was kind of rummed through and
there was so much public participation. Actually in the beginning that was like a lot of people got angry about the bill forcing people to take money out of their pockets to contribute to a fund that didn't seem like they had a plan. And a lot of politicians were actually on TV and everyone was watching every interview and they're like, you don't make any sense, we don't understand. Yeah, it's like, what is that money for? We're not sure, but we know we're to building houses. How are you
going to manage the money? Who's going to be in charge of the money. How is this? Like every single aspect was met by like some form of deflection or like a lie, just like a lot of there wasn't any accountability in the in what they were telling us. And even the person who was in charge was like on TV, he was sweating. He looked like he was lying though who wrote time. So everyone was like, if this is how you're speaking about it when we aren't
giving out money, what will happen after the fact. But the bill sailed through and one of the elements that was in that field that wasn't even in the news was that avocado farmers in the country will start with charging us will be charged a certain amount of money on their produce and they have to produce receipts on
this every single day. What like if yes, if you sell like an avocado, one avocado or of avocados, you have to do a breakdown of like your sales and like provide receipts to the government and then like you're charged for it. Oh my god, and yes, and the MPs this like earlier this year, were like when the bill usually like sometimes it takes a while for the closest to come into effect. It takes like maybe a
couple of months. So the amoungst their farmers were supposed to get charged was supposed to go live on sorry in February or something. So in February, farmers are getting attacked by like the Kenure Revenue Authority. They're being told you need to provide these receipts and everything, and everyone is like, I don't understand because we weren't informed. And then the politicians who did not read the bill but first it were like, oh, we didn't read the document.
It was too big what yes, exactly, So like that kind of information was what that was what was on the news just before they introduced now the financial twenty four So it's like, we know you didn't read the one from last year, you passed a bunch of bill, is that you didn't understand the impact of it in the long term, So why would should you? Why should
Kenyans trust you with this new one? And then they were like, no, we have the best economic interests that had And then everyone was like, but the billy passed last year to increase revenue didn't work. So if it didn't work, what makes you think having a bunch of new taxes they're going to work. And they couldn't answer that.
And now this finance built entertain wants to introduce much of your call tax, where if you own a car, you will pay like a certain amount like I think two percent that's of the voliation of your car, and you paid to your insurance company every single year.
Wait do you insure?
What?
What?
Why?
Wait?
Hold on, so why why is the tax? Why is this being paid to the insurance company?
Because that's that's how people asking. It's like, we understand because insurance and Kenya is mostly run by private entities just know exactly what they're doing, so it's more like a way to privates and get money into people's protects so we can't see and then and end up being stolen and there will be no thoportability. But they say it's easier because the insurance company is already handled this kind of stuff. So it's on top of your insurance.
On top of the insurance you pay for your car, you pay the motor vehicle tax as part of that. And I'm like, that's ridiculous. We don't trust our money on any given day. Why would you think we would just to suddenly with the branch of money being granted by a private from somewhere because they're not going to show us their books.
Yes, it seems like part of this too, is just that the sort of tax infrastructure isn't very like the tax collection infrastructure isn't very good, because you would think that that wouldn't be that hard for the government to just collect. Instead, we have like a like an Ottoman style tax farming situation.
So I love it you say that, because like that's how that's exactly how it feels like everything is run. It's very we're the smartest people in the room. We can't make the wrong decision. But you've made the wrong decision again and again and again, and now we're like, we want to see the approach. We want to understand how this is going to work in the face of unemployment, in the face of like the country has not been in good economic trajectory for a while now, and that
those economic shocks can be felt. A lot of people are closing down their businesses. A lot of people are downsizing, which means it's less people employed. Even the beauty industry, which is mostly like random inputs, because they're chudgling so much input duty, the beauty industry can't even stand on its own, so people are not just buying less makeup. It's like people who are those stores and any of
those kinds of basay. This is can't even have the like the person who comes to get the job days. It becomes a bit of a problem. So everyone is like, if you're going to charge us more, you have to have an infrastructure that works for us.
Yeah.
Yeah. Another tax that they're adding on the Finance bill is the inputs duty fee to like sanitary towels, wheelchair tired, like because like Kenya doesn't manufacture a lot of stuff. So you find like our like the pad manufacturing industry in Kenya, like sanitary towers, only two percent are manufactured here, like a big chunk comes from outside and they want to increase the input duty on that. So that means the pads in the market are going to be even more expensive.
Yeah, and that's something that like that that's not that's not a like that's that's that's that's not a luxury good. You just need that.
Yeah, So everyone was like, Okay, I guess though, we'll just have to stop having periods. Is like that, that's what you're saying, Like we're govern have to magically, Yeah, we're gonna have to figure out magically with nature to just stop having periods because you guys want to tax us in this particular way. And it's it's not just like the small things because like the problem with the
Kenyans space, especially with sensitive issues. So our our third president, his name was Mikey Baki, was the first one of the first presidents in the world to remove v ty on sanitary towers. Like he was seen as like someone who's setting an example for so many people. And then the fact that this is happening when this country was seen as like a chin setter to like not just African countries but other countries around the world when it comes to like very important goods, it was felt like
going backwards, and not in a way. It's not like we didn't have an example to follow. We actually did have a set precedent on like how an economy is supposed to work. So everyone who's grown up in these particular environments where they felt safe and protected by the government and like the government taking they live on very important issues was like, you can't say building Kenya, buying
Kenya is a top priority for you. And even electricity costs are expensive, yeah, because even this will adds like a fewel levy tax it's going up by seven shillings, which is way too expensive. So you pay for your fuel, but like most of the charges on the fuel is just the levees and taxes and they're adding a little bit more year.
And it seems like from the way that these are being structured that you know, I mean, one of the things with direct like I guess we call them sales taxes here is that the incredibly regressive. The people who get affected the most by are the people who you don't have that much money versus something like doing you know, versus doing like an income tax, and like the people who are the highest owners. This is this the burden, This falls entirely on people who are poor and can't afford it.
Yes, that's I think it's very scary to think a lot of our politicians because they get paid with taxpayer money, and what they did when during when they were writing, when they were contributing to the budget, they were like, we want we want this and this, want to be added for this and this thing. But the problem is, like when you look deep down what they're looking for, they don't want to pay taxes off of their salaries.
They want to find a way for taxpayers to pay for part of the taxes that are being added so that they don't have to lose money. Yeah, and every yeah, everyone is like, we know your budgeting for corruption. We can see you, we can see still, we can see you still, and we don't want to be part of that. And now to them it was like we're being aggressive because we want we want them to be held accountable for their very punitive for the punitive measures that they're
sending to like regular opinions. As you said, a lot of sales taps is affect every day before and we don't know how else to stop it. And I think that's why they protest are so they're catching fire and everyone wants to be out in the street.
Yeah, and we are going to we are going to come back and talk about the protests in a second, but first I here, here are some products and services that are I don't know, probably also be taxed. But all right, and we are back. Yeah, So okay, I think I think people should should have like a decent understanding of the fact that these taxes are these are tax to some basic commodities that people need. And that's one of the easiest ways to start a protest movement
is to suddenly make it too expensive to live. So let's talk about who. Yeah, how these protests sort of started and how they've been being organized.
My issues that we can't really say how the protests started, but there was a lot of anger by Kenyons online because Kenyons are chronically online, like especially the younger generation, a lot of people have cell phones, a lot of people are not tuned into the news really, but the information sharing happens whell Like when a clip from the news is cut put on tiptop, people see it, this is happening, so it will get angry and then they shared.
So what happened with the the Finance book. People would cut very little clips from the news and then someone would help put it in context. So that's where my channel comes in, where I'm not just using the news clips. I provide evidence like I've got through the Finance built, and then even consults with people who are in like ask lawyers on Twitter, like people who have resources and understand the law, or like what that would mean for
everyday cannons. I would literally reach out and it got to a point where I am now in communication with the right channels, like you can directly ask how this would impact people, like if they tax bread more or like refuse to make it easier for suppliers to get items for the supply chain, how does this affect everyday people? So that helps bridge the graph of information and now with more people critically not just looking at their news
but finding the evidence for themselves. Really have helped us get to a point where when you share, we are protesting about this issue. This is where we're going, this is what's happening. This this will happen in a certain town. So like Nairobi had its own occupy parliament reject the financial demonstration, it happened in Mombasa, to it happened in neary Elderate, all these smaller towns where people will live, but they're people from rural areas. They won't really care.
And I'm like, you don't know that. Yeah. And also something that's really magical that's happened. A lot of Kenyons were like, Okay, maybe there there are a lot of Kenyons who live in rural areas who don't have media that doesn't cater to traditional listeners, like people who only speak certain languages so vernacular stations. So people started using TikTok to do direct translation. It's like this is the script, yes, this is the script for the the financial buildings. Are
the taxes being added. This is the tax on bread, This is the tax on your on your vehicle. This is the tax that will happen on like period and sanitary paths and diapers and everything. So someone does the whole break down in their vernacular language and they share it on their family Whatspp groups called penans love whatksapp. That's why if you're if you want to do anything proper gandalate, you can easily bot onwards app before messages
are crazy. So because like WhatsApp is mostly co opted by antis and moms and people who love to share. Please go to chat share share this to seven friends. People took that mandy to where they send it to their moms and then have it shared like seven of their friends who don't understand me do what the finance bill entails. And that is really changing the landscape of like who gets to interpret the bills, who gets to
understand how it influences them. And it's been very very effective, So people who are passive are more and more understanding of like why everyone is on the streets.
Yeah, yeah, it seems like it almost seems like there's isn't there's kind of a I don't know, it's like a TikTok think tank that's been sort of doing this valuation that has been spread through That's that's really cool.
I'm just saying it's absolutely lovely to see because like tribalism has been a tool that's been wielded, especially during elections, to make onions look like they don't care about each other and they can't go beyond their differences. And this time it's like, yeah, we do have language barriers, but
we're not going to let that affect us negatively. We're going to figure out a way through the noise before they start co opting those spaces and start saying, oh, gen z, kids are lying or millennials are just started getting money, so why would they care about taxes? And so everyone is making sure that those spaces are not corrupted. Yeah.
Yeah, it seems like a really sort of incredible popular education thing that's been empowering this. Yeah, so I want to, I guess talk about I mean, one of the things that I think maybe kind of breached the I don't know, calling it like the Great Firewall is exactly right, but it's like, I think one of I think one of the parts of this that has gotten a little bit of play in the sort of beautia over here has been the police response, which has been terrible. Yeah, about what the cops have been.
Doing, Okay, in Kenya protests Historically, protests have always been extremely violent, Like during the Moi era, people used to get beaten unlocked. MOI was al second president. He was in office for twenty four years, so he was a power holder a least those words, there's a power holder. He didn't want to go anywhere. He wanted to stay in power as long as he could and to counter anyone who would go against him. People were tortured, people
were disappeared, people were children like dropped in forest. Many families couldn't find their members, especially if they went out of protest or do anything. That's why Wankarematas story, who's like one of the biggest environment total champions the world has ever seen. Her story was so unique because in the face of the most brutal dictators and every thing, she showed up and like she didn't just disagree, but she brought back and she did she use the same
tactics that people are using now. She informed the very ignored part of the population to get the information across that if they start taking away your land and putting down your tree and you won't be able to pumb, you won't have anything. This is this whole place is going to be at their set in a couple of years.
So everyone was funnying because like land is a very sensitive issue yea, And that's why the movement worked so well because she was not speaking, she was not just peaking against authoritude that she was going to like the people who who were going to be affected the most. And during those protests she was beaten up. Her hair was like young top her hair. It was very Yeah, it was very graphic and very painful. Like you watch these videos and they're like, who does something like this?
And now it's very replicated. Sorry, it was replicated again like throughout his presidency, but throughout the years, a lot of civil rights movements and all the community based organizations like came together and they will still protest about staff, but the issue it had moved on from like large protests to even smaller protests, being like they would send the police to bitter people who are speaking up about any issue. And usually because like you're in smaller communities,
there's no way to track. So if someone lies in Quibera and it's a slam area and it's mostly disenfranchised, the community organizations there, no they turn and find justice for the family. But because our police are mostly helped, you can't hold them to account because they work for the state, it's very hard to get any form of justice. But this time was it last year when people are protesting about the cost of living. I think it was just shortly before the finance built twenty twenty three past
people were protesting. People were out and they were angry about everything, and people were beaten up. Someone lost their two year old child because the child was beaten by the police. Yeah. Yeah, Like there's a woman who lost her son. Because usually when you're at protests, sometimes the people who are passing by, but because you're there and the police are there, they end up eating. Even if you're not past year, you're not back to the process.
So that there's a woman who ended up losing her son last year to the protest, and her adopted son too. And then this this year, like a couple of weeks ago, she died in a flood in my daddy, So and then yess are like seeing their terrible nature of like how state violence kIPS continuing. So this time when the protests are being organized, everyone who is like make sure you're peaceful, don't carry in stones because like throws stones
like Perry stones. You couldn't even pick up teas and like throw it back and everything, and this time everyone is like, just make sure you're very peaceful, only use your voice, protect each other. Like a lot of the announcements around the protests like make sure it's paceful so that they don't have an excuse to say that you are out on the streets doing something illegal. You don't attack shops, you don't try and force yourself into anyone's premises.
And what happened that was very beautiful this year is like the establishments, like the one I'm in right now was helped protect citizens who were protesting, so kids would be out of this then start getting teaters and like they would open the door, people would come in and they would close the door until the away. Yeah, so you find establishments are working to not just protect people, but also to be to be part of showing like
this is our premises. It's not being looted, it's not being destroyed, because destruction of property apparently is a bigger problem than you losing your life. So most people felt they were safe at the protest, and they also felt like they were seen by other protesters. So it was largely peaceful, very well coordinated. There's information on how to get medical help or in case we're arrested, how to
get as bigal assistance. So every single element was like we're not just going to ban out of like going into the streets, but making sure everyone returns home safely.
A lot of the protests in the past war they got a little violent because maybe some of the protesters went road and obviously their politicians love to use bad actors where they implant a bunch of people who go and destroy business premises, and then it looks like the protesters didn't come there to actually protest, they were there for their own selfish reasons. So this time what happened is like a lot of the protesters were given the
right information on how to stay peaceful. It's like these are the streets to use, these are the meeting points, These are the contract people for in case you get injured, is this medic in case you get arrested, these are the lawyers in case your friend disappears. Make sure they have a live location on so we can track them
and everything. So it was widely successful because that kind of peaceful and well coordinated navigated towards spaces that were if not before, like the safety of everyone was a priority and because our leaders can't really find who started the protests because it's mostly like a group who led the movement, they've started abducting who they feel like our community leaders.
Yeah, yeah, so I guess that that's something I wanted to ask about, was like, has the police response actually been any less bad this time that has been with other So.
This time on Thursday, they shot, Yeah, they shot into a crowd and one of them ended up shooting at twenty four year old and he bled out he died. His name is Rex Marsill. And then another kid was also shot. His name is Evans Kiragu was also shot, and I think they were trying to get him help and everything, but he died yesterday, I believe. And there's still other rochesters who are yet to be found. And then yesterday morning there's a very popular Twitter personality who
was disappeared, like they kind of appracted him. Yeah yeah, But then Kenyon's held a space online for over six hours and they're like they were dragging government officials and like if you people don't return this particular person, we will, And it was very particularly funny because Kenyon's, you would think this younger generation people don't have concentration issues. No
one is going to listen to us. But like everyone was like online and they were paying attention to like every single speaker just to keep the space longer, holding space for the person who had been taken. And he was found his lawyers, the lawyer, sorry, the lawyers in church found him and they went and like they went and got him and he went back safe, but obviously you could see he was visibly shaken. His creaturent name
is crazy and aerobian. Yeah, and then now today they took one of the doctors was organizing for a blad drive in like in a certain up market area. They just picked him out, and like, no one has been able to find him until now. So people are still advocating to like getting back and a lot of big personalities are making phone calls. Lawyers are showing up that like if you see this particular car, if you if you sit in your location, timely informants share the information.
So everyone who's online is trying to get the right information to make sure that that doctor is brought back. And yeah, ironically that doctor is actually unemployed because the the government is refusing to hire new medical personnel because like it's too expensive when we see them, like driving around in new cars has like very expensive shoes, and everyone is like, your shoes could literally pay like three
doctors high high the right thing. Yeah, but I can ends up pushing to make sure everyone is safe and everyone who's lost, especially big Twitter influencers and big media personalities and influencers are coming together to me, they use their platforms to help find anyone who's not who's been disappeared or been abducted. Yeah, h.
Where do you think the difference of going from here? I know, actually, well, actually I think I think I've lost track of what reading of the bill they're at right now was.
I thought it was the third reading or it's a it's at the committee stage. So at the committee stage they go through the every single close and they try to justify why they should keep it or whether they're
going to disband it. But everyone is just like, we don't want any of this because some of the bills, there's a there's a part of the bill that I didn't mention where the Kenya Revenue Authority is supposed to go through Kenyon's personal data to see you're dodging taxes and I'm like that, it's ridiculous because a lot of people in kinda are supported by a family member. So you find, you find if I have money, I'll send it to my kids, and then my kids made my
body to their friends who's probably in trouble. So if it looks like I have money coming in, it's probably maybe because of like a family contribution, a personal contribution. So they want to charge more taxis on that, and it actually makes no sense. So it looks like they're
chasm how much money you look like you have. Yeah, yeah, it looks like they're checking how much money look like you have, and then they want to taxing on that or like say you're evading taxes, And it's scaring a lot of people because once that happens, it feels like there's no safety in anything you have.
So I guess so from from there, So is the strategy right now based around sort of trying to get these trying to get the committees to just like to have this bill sort of die there or.
A lot of us are trying to make sure the bill doesn't go any further than it is, and everyone is tracking their empasse. So what happened even before the protest people started sharing their MPs numbers. Every single person would find like a member of Parliament's numbers, and we're like, if you if this is your relative, please give it to us. If it is your side, cheek or whatever
whatever where you relate to this person. Because it's government officials, their numbers should be public anyway, citizens should be able to reach them. And because they wanted to hide behind their big, big cause and big houses, we were like, okay, we're going to find you where you're asked, and we're going to text you and we're going to tell you to vote no. And most of the impulse were very dismissing. They were like, uh, the party that i'm that's backing
me is the one that got me into office. It's like, no, people voted for you, you should represent their views. So a lot of canyons held their lives where's like, I don't care what your boss is telling you or what party this is, you have to vote with us. So a lot of MPs who are shamed online some of them had to but like they changed their votes. Incredible, Yes, yeah,
I dontieve we should do this more often. So that's really that really gave hope to a lot of canons who are feeling like maybe their work isn't amounting too much. But we lost. We lost that one battle. A lot of us ended up using the battle to the second reading because many of the MP's were So there's this fund called the CDF IDIF fund. It's the constituency the Constituency Development Fund that MPs kind of use it like
their personal bank account. So members of Parliament, Yeah, members of PARLIAMENTI get the CDIF fund and then they'll use it to go and like so it's supposed to sally take care of like bursaries or any county emergencies directly affecting constituts. But what IMPY is doing is that like they wild it as a parsenal bank account. So it's like you have to like do a lot of us kissing and a lot of performative nonsense for you to even get some of the money, and a lot of
people don't actually end up getting the money. So what the budget makers did They decided to talk up the CDF fund so that more emplies have more money, and usually they just potet that money. So they're like, Okay, I feel like my budgeted corruption has hit the account, I don't need to do the right thing.
Yeah, so that's just literally a bribe exactly.
It's like the best way is like and they're like, no, I'll have more money to take care of the constituency. It's like, no, you steal this money anyway, you guys have any You're not going to do a conscience today just because money. So most of all are trying to get the parts of the budget we've seen there, then let's put into efforts that go there directly to education and healthcare, even if even if it's directly to the
school instead of the individual. Yeah, so that that will help cut down on that kind of corruption that a lot of mpies run with. And I think that's scaring some of them. And we're hoping we're hoping to get more people to be to push their members of Parliament or any nominated representatives to recognize that all these items that they're voting for it's not just going to affect us, but will affect them and the money that they're hoping
to steal. So if you're going to steal progress, we're going to don't get any of the money here.
Incredible, Yeah, is there is there anything else you want to add before you wrap up.
Yeah, I'll say usually when a lot of stories and like the African continent are covered, it's usually like Africans vote for bad leaders, and well that is true. Most of the times, people don't feel like they have an option.
Yeah, and like you know, if you you listeners statistically are probably either an American or a brain, so like you.
You you know exactly what that's like.
You're like someone who just you have Trump and he's like a contra now right now. So yeah, because the little so TikTok, something happened I think yesterday or something where people were like, how dependans vote for this person?
You are such a very dark criminal past, and and everyone was like, have you guys seen yourselves? You can there there are no highs. Everyone makes very foolish mistakes and all of us look like we don't know what to do to make sure people like that don't ascend into power, because like group things sometimes gets us to
like very dangerous places. It happens everywhere. No one is any less affected if someone who you hope to lose games power, like you're all in deep trouble, Like no one is on a higher pedestal than the other all of you can actually lose a lot. And one of the things that we are trying to remind each other's
we're trying not to get to this space. So what canons are trying to propose like a direct manifesto where any person who's running has to have like a close in their manifesto that is going to even be turned into like a policy and law where if you steal any money or we co found doing anything corrupt, you have to like remove yourself from office immediately, like there's no bargaining to do whatsoever, Like you have to live office immediately, and then we're going to seize all your
property anything. Yeah, it's like if we're going to get into power, make sure the salary you're getting is then now, if you have any ambitions, let them die now, like do everything before you get into earth. And I think that's so encouraging to see because everyone is not just looking at them now and like all these bad taxes and the bad leadership that we have, but also looking to the future of like how do we make sure
we don't get here again. So that's really encouraging to see everyone is making sure that they hold people to account across the board, like if your protesters, make sure you're safe, make sure you know this information. But also for the future, this is what we want. So it's not just like we're moving bad taxes, but if we're going to pay taxes, are they going to be used?
And how how are we going to make sure that the future of the and cheap is being protected by collective interest and not just like individual worship, which has been a very very big problem in Kenyan culture because like over here musicians are barely celebrities, but a politician would work in here and like people would like lose arms and legs to just see hi. So we're trying to make sure we fix that too. Yeah.
Yeah, So I guess the people listening to just want to try to help support the protests. Are there are there stuff that other things they can do in places they can go to find more information.
And.
Because a lot of it is group organized, I have to find the the information. I could send it to you. Yes, I don't know if from the top of my head, because I think and like most people would like do individual A lot of we have a lot of mobile money transferred, which are usually direct to the person so that it doesn't work with various channels and then people end up misappropriating or stealing. So if community lens, so I'll have to find the information and then sharing.
Cool.
Yeah, and okay, if if people want to find you on the internet, where can they do that?
So on Instagram and TikTok, it's pay work. We just tin like at people with Justin, like the full handle on Twitter, it's at official f w w J. So it's official f w w J, which is just people with just In official people for.
Yeah, we'll get we'll get that in the description too.
Yeah. Yeah, I do have my personal account, but I don't know if I want to give that. Yeah, I just know I can still give it. It's at Justin wonder j U S D I n E W A n D Yeah cool.
Yeah, Jessine, thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming on the show talking about this has been great.
Thank you so much for having me in letting me like just run my mouth work up.
Yeah, and good good, good luck to you all. Hope you fucking hope you stop them and bring them all down.
I really hope we do. If we don't, it's gonna be so sad. Yeah, thank you so much.
Yeah, of course, And yeah, let's spinak it off here and you too can go make your politicians lives miserable.
Welcome back to it could happen here a podcast where Robert Evans is lying down on a cout because he just feels exhausted from sleeping a leftn full hours. Garrison, you were much younger than me, and don't seem to feel exhausted because you just woke up after staying up all night, did you?
Yeah?
No, not as exhausted.
I hate you.
Do you know?
Do you know what is exhausting Robert?
Elections?
The twenty twenty four presidential election.
The twenty twenty four presidential election. Yeah, I hate it. I hate it, Garrison, I hate it. But also I have made a commitment. I have made a commitment to making a prediction about the election this year and sticking to it, even though it's going to make everybody angry. And I have a good reason for doing so. It's because I want to try one of the rarest drugs that exists in the world today, that Nate Silver. Shit. See, everyone's been wondering since like twenty twenty what's up with
that guy. Did he like lose his mind? Was he always kind of like out there and we just didn't notice because he he got lucky a couple of elections in a row. And the answer to that is no, Nate was a pretty reasonable guy. He comes out of like not politics. He only got into politics in two thousand and six because they banned online gambling and he got angry about it. And then he accurately predicted the two thousand and eight and twenty twelve elections.
Which wasn't hard to be fu Which wasn't hard.
No, it was not. I mean, he got all the states right, but it was just a matter because people have pointed out he didn't seem to be nearly as accurate in twenty sixteen or twenty twenty. There's a degree of fairness to that. But like twight and twenty twelve were our last non smartphone elections where there wasn't this like big, you know, demon of social media kind of
hiding behind everything and making everything a lot weirder. And I think part of you know, I think what ultimately caused Nate's madness though, is that in twenty sixteen he did pretty well. He like laid out he was a twenty nine percent chance of Trump winning, and when he explained what that chance was, how Trump might sweep the Blue Firewall states and whatnot, it's basically what wound up happening, and as like a reward for being more or less correct.
While the election was going on, all of the Democrats hated him because the news sources they liked said that Trump had only a two percent chance of winning, and then when the election was over, it became like mainstream kind of reality to just say, yeah, Nate fucked that one up. He finally screwed up, and I think that
that mix of things is what's driven him insane. So I've decided to predict that there's a twenty nine percent chance that the election is basically the same as twenty twenty and now, unlike Nate, I don't have any kind of math to back that up. It's just a gut feeling.
But I'm calling that now because I want people to get really angry at me now, and then ideally, when I'm right, they'll get even angrier at me, and then I can go insany it on social media and just gradly become completely unhinged and see what it's like to be Nate Silver, the Ultimate high Garrison.
See, I thought you were going to say you thought there was a twenty nine percent chance that Nate Silver would just completely completely lose it and do some like like.
You do a major terrorism.
Yeah.
Yeahs that's what I thought.
Yeah.
He drives a double decker bus into the end of the Lincoln Memorial. God, that's my that's my hope.
He storms the five thirty eight headquarters.
Yeah, he's gonna take it back once and for all.
Okay, so today we're gonna be talking about election polling. Uh, the debate is very very soon here in Atlanta, Georgia, And as a little bit of a preparatory measure, we want to go over some of the actual poll numbers for the twenty twenty four presidential election. I like to start with this Iowa poe from Seltzer and Co. Now, Iowa's a weird one, right. Iowa has has gone read pretty consistently the past two years, although twenty twenty was
closer than twenty sixteen. In twenty twenty, Trump won the state by fifty three point one percent to Biden's forty four point nine percent. But the numbers right now are much much worse for Biden. Not good, No, it's it's it's pretty bad. Tr Trump is leading Biden in the general election in Iowa by eighteen percentage points, and third party candidates, including Kennedy and the Libertarian candidate Chase Oliver, are receiving a combined fifteen percent support. It's pretty bad.
It hasn't been this bad in a while.
Now.
People like to use this specific Iowa poll as kind of a barometer for the Midwest in general, and that's, you know, not completely accurate all the time, but it is something that people do consistently to as a general barometer for Trump's possible success in the Midwest. Now we have minnesotatae.
Because one of the most probably the most viable path to Biden winning involves holding that quote unquote blue firewall, which doesn't include Iowa obviously. It does include Michigan and Wisconsin, both of which are generally within the margin of error in most polls but looking very sketchy for Biden compared to how he would like them to be at this point.
Wisconsin's not looking great. Minnesota. According to a survey a USA poll from just a few days ago, Biden is up six points.
Yes, Yes, Michigan is I think the one I was saying is a little closer. Yeah.
So that's kind of the situation with this poll. And I'm not going to get into any of the more specific numbers because the numbers in this Iowa poll are going to be actually pretty reminiscent of more of the general election numbers, which we're going to get into, especially when we're going to start factoring in things like the conviction and Trump's popularity among independence which could very well be a major deciding factor in this election. So I'm
going to quote from Forbes here quote. Trump leads Biden by one point fifty to twenty nine percent in a CBS poll released Sunday that comes after a streak of surveys found Trump's lead has slipped since his felony conviction Manhattan last month, including a Fox News survey released Wednesday, the nineteenth that shows Biden up by two points, a three point swing since the network's May survey. This was among a streak of five poles since mid June that
show Biden beating or tied with Trump unquote. So Biden has made some considerable progress in the polls in the past month. Biden and Trump are now tied in the Morning Consults weekly survey, as Biden has now been leading Trump by a point in for two weeks in a row. A month prior, Trump was way way ahead of Biden, and the two are also tied in the Economist You Go of survey released last Thursday, as well as a PBST Marrist poll from Tuesday the eighteenth.
Yeah, and there's a couple of things. I mean, like, it's easy to say that's probably due to the conviction, because that's the biggest thing that's happened since then. But I also think there's a decent chance that some of that is just the result of the fact that Trump is now definitely the nominee, which was a little more up in the air previously, so now people are kind
of forced to consider what that really means. But it does seem in general like there's been motion and like things have been moving in Biden's favor since the conviction. So I don't think it's wrong to say that probably overall the evidence suggests helps Biden at this point.
Yeah, and the Fox News survey is really interesting because they have this They have it on a graph here and you can see Biden steadily moving upwards on the graph very consistently, and Trump has largely flatlined. If not, is actually kind of moving a little bit down. Robert F. Kennedy Junior is also moving quite down. Yeah, not completely surprising considering the whole brain brainworms thing.
He's going to be the most interesting thing, the most interesting thing because whether or not Trump wins could mean whether or not we are able to continue doing what we do. But OURFK is kind of the most interesting thing for me in terms of like, are is it going to Is there going to be any kind of evidence that there's actually real hunger for a third party
which everyone keeps talking about. Is this constant topic of discussion in US politics, but it never happens, and and people were getting very RFK is obviously a bad guy to pin your hopes on a viable third party on, but I am interested to see if it if it, because there's a decent evidence that the primary chunk because when you factor in RFK, Biden's lead doesn't go down right, because RFK is really popular among a lot of the
independence that Trump is already strong with. And so the big question is, like, is he going to drain votes from Trump or just kind of fizzle out. And I think right now the smart money is kind of on fizzling out. But it's it's a little hard to say.
Do you know what we can say for sure though, Robert.
That Robert F. Kennedy Junior is the primary sponsor of this podcast.
God, I hope, so, I hope, I really hope we start getting some RFK ads on here.
Look, folks, if you if you're not sure whether or not you want to vote for RFK, we get it. You know, obviously it's a this is a big choice. But our recommendation is head down to the Gulf of Galveston and shove your head in that in that Texas coast water, get a couple of Amibas rattling around on that brainy ores, and then see how you feel about our FK Junior. You know, all right, we are back.
Let's talk a little bit about independence, because this voting block will basically be the deciding factor in this whole election. So that PBS Marrist poll that found Trump and Biden tied also found that Trump has lost six points with independent compared to their poll taken just before his conviction last May. And Biden has gained eight points with independence and now leads Trump by two points in that category.
And similarly, the Fox poll also shows Biden leading by nine points among independents.
And that's a massive shift. That's enough of a shift that I wonder how much polling methodology maybe to explain for it, Like were they just pulling these people? Were they pulling them badly before? Or are they pulling them badly now? Because that's that's quite a lot of movement.
We'll talk a little bit about pulling methodology here at the end, because it might. Yeah, it is, certainly the polling methodology produces a large degree of the numbers. A lot of these polls have a margin of error of about three point five percent. But this this finding is consistent across almost every single poll being done right now.
A political uh ipsos poll from mid June found that thirty two percent of independence say they are now less likely to support Trump after his conviction, with twenty one percent saying it would be an important factor in their vote.
Yep, And I did. This is the kind when we were taught would talk in the group chat before the conviction. I would. I made a note a couple of times of the fact that there's a sizeable number of Americans who are not what you'd call high information voters but just feel really gross about voting for a felon. And I think these are the kind of people who are independence a lot of the times. They're not people who think much about politics. They're people who.
Makes part m typically yeah.
Yeah, yeah, and they can kind of make a swing, gut decision on either of these guys in a moment, and if you tell well, he's a felon, that matters to some people. There's like the this frustrates a lot of like high information political analysts, the fact that so many Americans just kind of like make almost random decisions like flip of a coid calls about what to do, but.
Which is also what makes pulling very hard. Is right, but all all polls also into hey, that this will probably be a much closer election than twenty twenties, and in an election this close, small shifts among independents could very well determine the outcome. Now, I'm going to quote from that Political Episos report on their own poll quote quote A plurality of respondents in our poll, thirty eight percent reported that Trump's conviction would have no impact on
their likelihood support Trump for president. Thirty three percent of respondent said that the conviction made them less likely to support Trump, while only seventeen percent said it made them more likely. These results were worse for Trunk. Among respondents who said they were political independents, thirty two percent said that the conviction made them less likely to support and only twelve said that it made them more likely to
support Trump unquote. And that same poll also found that nine percent of Republicans say they're now less likely to support Trump.
Yeah, which is massive, and that that actually makes me want to bring up one of the guys the analysts I've been reading, because this is actually the extent that there's any real basis behind my twenty nine percent chance things work out basically, like twenty twenty one, it's this this fucking dude Helmet Norpoth Norpoth is he's one of these guys who's built a model, Like you get these every now and then, like because they're great content for TV news. Dudes like, oh, this guy's got a model
prediction the election. His model predicted the last forty elections properly, even though they like ran them through after we knew how the elections were going to go, and I don't know how fair that is. Helmet actually did accurately predict a couple of like the last He's had his model going the primary model for like the last seven elections,
and it predicted five of them correctly. Now, one it got right was twenty sixteen, although it predicted how Trump was going to win wrong, it got that he was going to win right. I don't know how much credence you want to give that. And he fucked up in twenty twenty, although you know the fact that there was a pandemic, then I'll give him a little bit of grace. The other one he fucked up was twenty was two thousand, but he called it.
He called it for Gore.
So yeah, well, I'll read from his website describing like how this works, because it's relevant to what you're talking about in terms of independent voters, and it's also relevant to what I think is another major factor and who's going to ultimately win, which is likely voters versus like correct.
If I feel like it, I'll vote because Biden's lead jumps substantially when you consider likely voters correct whereas Trump does very well with like maybe voters, and I kind of don't feel like this is going to be a high turnout election. Rights, that's what I am seeing.
We have some data on this that I'll talk about later.
Yeah, yeah, And Helmet's model works that way. So quote, the primary model gives President Joe Biden a seventy five percent chance to defeat Donald Trump in November. This forecast takes account of the performance of the two candidates in the early primaries. Biden won the Democratic contest in those states by far larger margins than Trump did and Republican ones. What also benefits Biden and the general election is an electoral cycle that fits the sitting president in a nutshell.
A White House incumbent facing no significant challenge in primaries
almost always wins reelection for the electoral college. The most likely outcome of the twenty twenty four election predicted by the model is that Biden will get three fifteen and Trump two two three And basically, so part of why I think this guy's probably a hack, but it's kind of interesting is he's looking at how they performed relative to each other in their primaries, and you could there's a degree to which you can say, like, well, primaries
are absolutely not general elections. But what it does show is relative how much Trump's support has faded from Republicans. And Trump actually did considerably less well in the primaries
than he did in twenty twenty. Right totally, there was a degree of actual like hunger to vote for Kerry Lake Humaya, I think, is the Arizona Right candidate who was running against him, and he showed weakness in a number of primary states that was not there in twenty twenty, which suggests, along with the polling you showed, you know that like nine percent of Republicans are less likely to vote from after they can an amount of weakness in his base that could be pretty meaningful when we get
to the election. And I don't think it's been taken into account enough by, for example, folks on the left looking at how much everybody hates Joe Biden, which is also a very real factor. But I think that people are kind of denying the degree to which a lot of folks who should be his based don't like Trump anymore.
Yeah, and this is one of the weird things. Post to conviction. There were some pundits who are trying to make an argument that somehow the conviction would actually make Trump a more popular choice, which maybe works if you're like a contrarian, but it doesn't really make much sense. And if you look at like the approval ratings for the conviction and the verdict, they fall pretty pretty well on party lines. It's really going to come down to independence.
Like everyone who's going to vote for Trump, who like really really really want to vote for Trump, are still going to vote for Trump, right, Like that's how it goes.
Absolutely not, and they will buy the I'm voting for the felon hats that Facebook keeps trying to sell.
Made absolutely right, Like, those are not the people that are in question, But there is a large number of other people who do not own a mega hat who are actually, you know, questionable in who they're going to vote for. On this note, I'd like to like to quote again from Forbes quote. Polls consistently show the conviction is a low priority for most voters in deciding who to actually cast their ballot for. The political Ipsos poll found that fifty three percent said it's not important said
it's not important to their voting decision. Well sixty one percent in a Reuter's pull released last week, said it won't impact their vote unquote. Now, one of the clearer shifts that we have seen post verdict is a sizable increase in Biden voters who list stopping Trump as one of their main reasons to do so. This we have numbers from March to now, is that the main reason for supporting Biden. In March, we had forty seven percent saying it's to oppose Trump. Now it's fifty four percent
saying it's to oppose Trump. Which I think that number will only increase the closer we get to the election, because people don't want Trump to be present, and again even though they don't like Biden like. The other thing with these numbers is that the percent of people who say I like Biden as reason for supporting him has decreased since March. Yes, yes, by four percent.
Of course, because he's not likable and he's he shouldn't be president still, but Trump is even like and people understand like I that is the number one thing when I go out of like my the bubble of my friends and whatnot and talk to family members or just like have conversations with ret like uber drivers or whatnot about politics. I have not heard a single person state a reason for vote. They want to vote for Biden that is more important than I don't want Trump to
be president. That is everyone that I encounter basically like I'm, I'm obviously you have other people, but it is weird to the extent to which that's what this election is going to come down on. And I kind of think it's evidence that like of a of a failure and strategy in Trump's part, because I think he probably could do better if he were to focus on allaying those fears that he wants to become a dictator as opposed to harping on like one of the things that's interesting
to me. He's campaigning very heavily in Wisconsin right now. He's already made like two visits just to southeast Wisconsin in the last two months. Because Wisconsin is up for grabs right Every poll I've seen basically is within margin of air. It's either guy's game, and it's a critical state. And Trump is hammering Biden on crime in Wisconsin. Right look at how your dims have done, look at how
much more violent this city's become. And about one percent of registered voters in Wisconsin consider crime a major concern in a presidential election. And part of that's because like violent crime has dropped and like massively in Wisconsin and nationwide over the last year. And I do wonder the extent to which because Americans' views on crime are not
based on how bad crime actually is. But I also wonder if people are start are like the degree to which that's a vote in concern for people is fading because it has dropped so much. And I'll be curious to see if kind of Trump's strategy of hammering the Democrats because they're bad on crime is going to prove to be a serious misstep.
Well, even Fox News has had to do recent segments talking about how there actually has been a drop in crime, even though Americans feel like it hasn't, which is quite funny little tidbit. We're all looking for the guy who did this moment. Now, I do want to get through a few more conviction numbers. I'm going to quote from politicals report on their own poll regarding the importance of
the conviction in people's vote. Quote, twenty two percent of respondents said the conviction is important to how they will vote and that it will make them less likely to support Trump. Only six percent of respondents took the other side of the question, saying they are more likely to support A nearly identical negative effect showed up among independents, with twenty one percent saying they are less likely to support and five percent saying they are more likely unquote now.
Of those who say the conviction is important to how they will vote, seven percent of Republicans say they are less likely to support Trump. So that's an interesting number, and only thirteen percent say they are more likely and like, come on, those people were always going to vote for Trump anyway. Forty percent of Democrats, of course, say that
they are less likely now. Twenty eight percent of Republicans say that the conviction makes them more likely to support Trump, but it won't affect their vote, and among those who said the conviction isn't important to how they will vote, forty percent said that it has basically no impact on their support of Trump. Most those people are independents now.
Political also asked respondents if they thought the prosecution was brought to help Joe Biden, and most around fifty one percent disagree with the claim, but forty three percent agreed and said that the case had probably been brought to help Biden, and these results are roughly similar among independents. So still most people don't think so, and there's people who have, you know, suspicions. Not not super surprising.
Now.
Political notes that these thre might be movable, though these are not necessarily locked down opinions as quote, roughly a third of all responders and independence said that they still do not understand the details of the case. Well unquote,
so glorious, those are not really set in stone. And Political also notes that there's a number of upcoming events and variables that could change of the public's opinion before November, you know, including all of the ongoing efforts by political operatives to influence people of the public perception of both the conviction and just you know, the election in general.
The debates obviously too.
The debates as well as Trump's sentencing in Manhattan on July eleventh, which could possibly you know, entail a period of incarceration. Probably not, but if it did, that would that would certainly impact impact these numbers. And also Manhattan Dish attorney Alvin Bragg's testimony before Congress on July twelfth. This this, this could impact the numbers you know regarding you know, how many people think this case is legit versus how much peace think is just purely like a
political move. But still about half of adults do approve of Trump's conviction. The AP did a poll with the NORC a week after Trump's conviction, but before Hunter Biden was convicted on that federal gun case, and uslts seems more likely to support Trump's conviction than they are to disapprove, with at least forty eight percent saying they approve and just twenty nine somewhat or strongly disapproving and twenty one you know, not approving or disapproving, to quote from the AP,
Republicans are less united on the verdict than Democrats. Roughly six and ten Republicans disapprove, while fifteen percent approve the other to and ten neither approve nor disapprove. Overall, opinions on Trump have barely budged. About six and ten US adults have an unfavorable opinion of Trump, just in line from our findings in a poll conducted last February, four in ten have a favorable view of Trump. When also largely unchanged since February. The numbers are equally poor for Biden.
For and ten US adults have a favorable view of the Democratic president, while six and ten have a negative one unquote.
Yeah, this is very much unique in races that I can recall a race to the bottom, like who can alienate? Who will alienate less of the base?
Right, Like, yeah, no, we Polls consistently are showing that there will be historically that there is historically low voter enthusiasm. Both candidates have very low favorability ratings, and an NBC poll found that sixty four percent of voters say that they are very interested in this year's election, which is a twenty year low, so, you know, not great numbers. And a new CBS poll found that among young Americans who did vote in twenty twenty, only three quarters to
say that they'll definitely do so again. Now this this poll also does show that Trump's support among young voters has been almost unchanged since twenty twenty.
Yeah, he's done about two percent better, which is fairly minimal considering how much Biden's lead is among that group.
But overall, young voters do believe generally progressive values pretty consistently, including support for a ceasefire.
And that's i mean, part of the reason why we may not see which could be catastrophic for Biden, because twenty twenty a lot of his win came in the fact that he did deliver so much of that, like so many young voters came out, turnout was so high, and they overwhelmingly supported Biden. There is also, i mean kind of a reason why that might not wind up mattering, which is where Biden I mentioned earlier. Biden does really well among likely voters, much better than he does among
the general electorate. And this is part of a shift among white voters with degrees that has been We get a lot of talk and this has been significant, especially like Latino voters shifting towards the GOP has been a really important story too, but this one does not get talked about as much. In the four years since Biden took office, white men with degrees have shifted twenty four points towards Biden, and he has gained nineteen points with among white women with degrees, which is like a huge
amount of his support. And also that's one of the groups that's likeliest to vote. Like the strength that Biden has gained among kind of middle of the road leaning conservative suburban voters is potentially going to be a cider in this election.
Yeah, and according to The New York Times and Sienna, the polls do seem slightly skewed in Trump's favor actually this year, mostly by disenfranchised voters who may not participate in the upcoming election. And analysis they did found that Biden had led the last three of their polls among twenty twenty voters, but trailed among registered voters overall, which is basically exactly what you're saying.
You know, Garrison, speaking of likely voters, are I don't know, that doesn't really lead. And here's the fucking ads. Look, you don't get you don't get a good one. Every time we do this, folks, there's too many.
Are likely to listen to these ads.
They're fine, So.
We are back.
Is polling actually useful? This actually useful anymore? The answer is kind of. But you know, people have gotten really really anti polling in recent years. You know, it's a twenty sixteen elections certainly contributed to that. Although yeah, if you look at the actual twenty sixteen polls, it's kind
of it's kind of interesting. In twenty sixteen, Clinton generally pulled much higher than Trump for the duration of the race, though in late July the two were neck and neck, with the gap closing once again in late September and the week of the election, Trump was on average trailing by less than three point five percent behind, which is often in the margin of error for these polls, and pollsters usually consider something under three percent being a toss up.
Now this is three point five percent, so still is it was trending towards Clinton, and there's there is reasons why in terms of their polling methodology that was flawed, But the polls were actually a bit closer than I think what public perception seems to remember of the twenty sixteen polls.
Yes, and this is a part of why the public memory of twenty sixteen and to an extent, twenty twenty and to an extent every election is shown so bad is you can't emphasize this enough. People are dogshit and understanding what poles say, right. They are really bad at understanding uncertainty. One of the things that I hate to keep going back to the Nate silver Well, but I think he's a fascinating case study. And one of the
things he pointed out after twenty sixteen. The minute you have a forecast where there's less certainty, people don't like that. The minute you have a forecast that doesn't have a Democrat winning, they don't like that very much. And it's to point out, like his he kind of started to become a heel as soon as he started showing that like Trump had a real shot at winning, and as his as his forecast continue to show kind of weakness
among the Democrats, it got people angrier and angrier. And that's most of what makes people determine whether or not something is a credible source on the election. And that's kind of why a lot of this is like a doomed effort, is because people consider, you know, an expert credible if they are saying something they want to hear, because most of what people want in terms of election polling is to feel reassured that things are going to be okay, right, and that's that's your kind of It's
always like a confirmation bias game. And it's also one of those things where, like the instant you do well, if you are legitimately a rigorous, you know, expert, and you predict things correctly, you're going to suddenly be this focus of so much media attention and have so much money and job offers thrown your way that it will inherently drive you mad, which is part of why again, I am predicting a twenty nine percent chance that things are basically the way they wear in twenty twenty, so
I can get all that sweet, sweet CNN money, you know, if I wind up being right. I am curious, Scaris and kind of in that line because as our as our official poll expert, you kind of came into this, I don't think with a strong set of biases about what would happen when you actually started drilling down into the numbers, did that change it all your impression of what was going on this election?
I think I thought that the numbers for Biden would be slightly worse. I think that's kind of the general feeling, and that has been you know, what the numbers have kind of looked like in my cursory glances the past few months. But looking more into kind of polling science, what these pollsters are are saying the gap is usually within this three percent, that it feels like it's going to be a very close election. It'll be much closer
than it was in twenty twenty. Poles thought that twenty twenty would be a much much more obvious win for Biden. It was, it was, it was a closer election than what people thought. But this I think will be even even closer. So it's it's gonna be it's gonna be a tricky one. We're going to be kind of on the edge of our seat come.
From election night, which is what no one wants to hear, right, No, especially since you have this, You have a lot of people who want to hear Biden is doomed because they have, for generally good reasons, come to despise Biden over the last totally four years, and they just want to know that like the things they're angry about matter, And the thing that I all I can say to those people is like, I don't know that anything matters. And I
do think there's a really good chance. I think this is basically a coin flip.
Yeah, And I think you know, polling is is going to look very different this year because Trump is not the incumbent. I think there's a lot of other factors that are contributing to the polls, and pollsters have adjusted a lot since twenty sixteen, to make sure that more Trump support is accounted for both in twenty twenty and in twenty sixteen. The error did not come from overestimating the support of Clinton and Biden. It came from underestimating
Trump's support. And this has been fixed fixed for via a number a number of methods. You know, there's certain theories people have had, like the quote unquote shy Trump voter theory, which is kind of largely disputed, of saying that you know.
People certainly by this fucking point.
Yes, no, saying that people who like support Trump are too scared to tell pollsters that they support Trump, quite quite silly. It's essentially it's essentially blaming, blaming, like pull errors on people just lying to polsters because they're too nervous. So, I don't know, there's a lot of other stuff we have. We have adjusted for white, non college educated voters, you know, because people who have a college degree are more likely
to respond to polls. So all this does get adjusted for, especially since twenty sixteen, because that was the main cause of the polls kind of being fucked up that year. So what exactly happened in twenty twenty, Then if these things like the not in college vote and the shy Trump voter theory were sort of adjusted for well, a few things happened. The pandemic one, you know, made certain
pulling things. Ure's a little bit unique. The election also featured the highest number of voter turnout in decades, something that we're probably not expected to see in twenty twenty four. In twenty twenty, the national polls were too favorable to Biden by three point nine points, state polls by four point three. I'm going to read a report from the American Association for Public Opinion Research analyzing twenty twenty election poll errors.
Quote.
If the voter's most supportive of Trump were least likely to participate in polls, then the polling error may be explained as follows. Self identified Republicans who choose to respond to polls are more likely to support Democrats, and those who choose not to respond to polls are more likely to support Republicans. Even if the correct percentage of self identified Republicans were polled, differences in the Republicans who did and did not respond could produce the observed polling error unquote.
If this was indeed the issue, it was probably made worse by Trump in twenty twenty by being very disparaging to polls, making his base probably less likely to honestly engage with polling metrics, and both in twenty sixteen and twenty twenty there was large large post mortems among the polling community trying to figure out how to improve, and twenty twenty two's polls were more accurate than any election since nineteen ninety eight, with almost no bias towards either party.
So that is a good side in terms of the accuracy of polls.
This not being nonsense, Yeah.
Correct, So a poster named Nathaniel Rackitch said, quote, polls true utility isn't telling us who will win, but rather in roughly how close a race is and therefore how confident we should be in the outcome. Historically, candidate's leading polls by at least twenty points have won in ninety nine percent of the time, but candidate's leading polls may less than three points have won just fifty five percent
of the time. Unquote, And that kind of lines up with our current situation, right, Biden was even though the polls were slightly skewed towards Biden in twenty twenty, he was so far ahead that most of the polls in terms of saying who would win, we're still correct because Biden was just so far ahead this time. That will not be the case. That's not that's not what the
polls are going to say. The polls are going to show this being a much closer race, and that I think that is what it's going to be come come November. So yeah, that's kind of that's kind of the low down of the current the current polling situation. I'll be curious to see, you know, what the numbers are post debate and especially after the sentencing in July.
Yeah, we'll see. And I should note that Nate Silver just released his official forecast today and it's it's almost the opposite of that. We're German Man, who gave Biden a seventy five percent chance of winning, Nate gives Trump a sixty five percent chance of winning. So we are going to see which of the election pundits who make their entire living off of gambling on elections winds up getting to be fetted on all of the talk shows
in like January of twenty twenty five. That'll be That's why I'll toss up honestly, thereal'll toss up a helmet versus Nate Baby, who's gonna win? I kind of think they both might be common. Oh yeah, that wasn't the opening of the podcast, or unless it was. I guess it was because we were recording Welcome to It could happen here, Harrison. I had to open an episode about a terrible, terrible piece of voice acting history with some horrible voice acting of my own. It was the only right way.
It's true, it's true, but there has been some really bad voice acting going around lately. Yes, oh boy, So do you know what we're gonna talk about today, Robert. We're gonna talk about the South Park of X.
And I know what you're all wondering, what the fuck is X? Did you guys? Is that a placeholder? Did you like type in a placeholder because you forgot the name of what this is? The South Park of or whatever? No, no, no, we're talking about Twitter.
We are talking about the first animated sit slash calm on X Slash Twitter, titled The New Norm Show. Not to be confused with the twenty twenty two low budget movie The New Norm. This is a new animated project from the Great Minds over at Dave Rubin Incorporated. Yeah, was so bad but also so insightful that I did a whole bunch of drugs and wrote about two thousand words about this project and uncovered some kind of shocking
things that we will slowly get into. I first just want to go over the mini pilot itself, because right now the only thing that's out is like this three minute or so little mini pilot, And we'll get into why this is the only thing that's out right now, but I'm first just want to do kind of like a short play by play, and it will be short because it again, it's only three minutes. Yeah, of what happens in this new perspective animated sitcom that they want
to air on Twitter dot com now known as x Yes. So, I think the first thing you need to know about it, you know, besides you know, the Dave rubenness of it all, it looks like early two thousands flash animation, like really bad early two thousands flash animation. It's not good.
It's not good. None of the characters can like really express things, and the perspective is always a little bit off. Yeah, it looks like something like a moderately competent person could have animated in this course of an afternoon if the people paying them did not actually want anything that looked very good.
Well, and I think that is kind of what happened. They posted one video showing the animating process, and it does look like this one person did it in like a day. So anyway, it starts with an older man sitting in a living room chair scratching at an ankle monitor. He reaches for a beer, only to find that it's
been wokefied with rainbow packaging. The man reacts in horror, and his more liberal daughter remarks progress, it's the new norm, and then a pandering a country music theme song plays, which we will we will play for you later just because it's so bad.
We're going to have to. I want to start just because this is the first shot of the episode and it was the first thing in the episode that made me very angry. And it's how small his feet are, like, especially if you're going to have.
The fact rob Lyfield feet.
He's got the rob Lyfield feet. And it's this is particularly a problem because the ankle monitor doesn't look like it's going to be a one off joke, because he doesn't just have an ankle monitor he has like an evil Amazon alexa that looks a little bit like it's been it's gotten some howl nine thousand DNA in it. Yes, that every time he says something that's not woke enough, it it yells at him, right.
It is offensive? Offensive?
Yeah, yeah, the fantasy progressive government that is in charge in his in this cartoon world has forced him to wear an ankle monitor because he's not woke enough. And so I'm guessing that's going to be a recurrent bit. And if has this sension ankle monitor is a recurrent bit, his feet shouldn't look like the ankle monitor should always
be falling off of them. No, it's so loose. It's so really bad animation, right, Like, I'm not even saying that's a good bit, But if that's your bit, you have to actually design the characters to sell the bit, as opposed to me constantly thinking how is that fucking ankle monitor staying on his goddamn ankle anyway, whatever.
The character was not designed with the ankle monitor in mind. That was a later edition, so definitely. After the theme song, the man addresses the audience, he says, I'm the old norm I want normal beer.
God damn it.
And I just want to point out this is like the only character that gets an introduction. We don't really learned almost anyone else's names, except for one other character, which he's just great, great for like a pilot. Anyway, So he steps towards his front door and the ankle
monitor starts beeping. He blames his liberal daughter for being put on house arrest for quote unquote threatening the school board, which he says he did because the school was quote brainwashing kids into thinking girls aren't girls and men aren't men. His daughter says, sometimes they're neither or both, or dressed like dogs. Anyway, his wife comes home.
Oh god, yeah, there's a real furry obsession in this EPI this show. I guess we'll talk about that later too, because.
This was birth years ago. This is not like a modern current take on WOKESM. But his wife comes home and with her is someone wearing a COVID mask sporting a pink mohawk. And here I'm going to play our first clip.
What's that worrying?
Actually that is one of my pronouns. Also, they them and me?
Your non binary?
How do you know that word?
I learned it in school.
That's why I'm locked up.
Norm.
The judge agreed to conditional parole.
What condition?
Where is my room?
That's saying here?
Chaz is part of a new government program.
To re educate homophobic, transphobic, racist Charlie.
Finally someone normal.
I don't understand your word?
Did that?
Just black whisper?
You're his friend and boss.
So something that isn't fully conveyed just through the sound is that when the daughter finds out that this new person is non binary, she gets like big, big, like lovey eyes.
Yeah.
And the black boss character, he is played by failed politician Larry Elder, and he's my.
God, that's Larry Elder. Yes, Oh that's funny. That's so funny. He's just there to show that black people like Norm, right, yes, exactly, that the progressives actually are racist for not liking Norm because the only black person they're going to put in this show thinks that he's rad. It's just a normal thing that you do if you're a right wing hack making a low budget cartoon. He is wearing, by the way, a Washington Redskins hat and shirt, and his.
Shirt discontinued four years ago.
Yeah, and his first his opening line in the show is him coming in and saying, I come over here to escape woke.
Yes.
Yeah. One thing I do think is interesting is that both this character, because Larry Elder makes a note that like his son is about to transition and is at least non binary, they don't really know what any of this means. So a little bit of the script is unclear as to what these kids actually how they identify. And obviously Norm's daughter is I don't know if she's non binary or just like into a like generally queer,
but like that is the impression you're left with. And again, if you actually were someone who was kind of conservative, conservative sympathetic, like Mike Judge making like a cartoon, you can actually get some mileage out of the accepting the idea that like, Okay, you've got these curmudgeonly older people and you've got their kids who are like way more open about this kind of stuff, and there's there's there's room for plots as King of the Hill did pretty
well that kind of lampoon the culture in general, but it requires a little more self awareness. Like again, if there was a little bit you might wonder, like, what are we saying if we're the people making this right wing piece of propaganda that all of the young people feel very differently about gender than their parents.
Well, yeah, that's why Norm keeps saying, I'm the old Norm. I want to bear. And the show was called The New Norm, not to be confused with the nineteen ninety nine ABC sympcom storing Norm MacDonald called it the Norm Shows. It's literally right, it's literally in the name. It's about you know how these people cannot cannot accept that times
change and they slowly get outdated social beliefs. Anyway, every single time that Norm addresses the non binary character, referring to them as pronoun or that his little AI Amazon assistant just bleeps out offensive. Offensive.
Jazz is here to re educate Norm.
In non bonary studies.
I'm allergic to dogs.
It's okay.
Billy is an emotional support dog and non binary.
Oh okay, then good dog.
Just amazing voice acting in that cliff and with a helpful laugh track, so you know what is a joke and when you're supposed to laugh, which is so embarrassing for an animated sycom to put on a laugh track, like oh my god, oh my god.
It smacks of desperation because nobody really liked nobody misses laugh tracks.
Laugh tracks are like if you have a live studio audience, you know, a laugh track kind of like makes sense. This is this is an animated sitcom. It's like if there's a laugh track on like Rick and Morty or like the Simpsons, like what the fuck are you doing?
Yeah?
Anyway, The two men sit down to watch sports, and Larry Elder laments that a non binary person is present in the room and starts complaining about his child.
I come here to get away from woke trouble at home. Ah my boy or whatever it calls themselves now is thinking about transitioning that try Regina transitioning to what.
Another humble whatever it calls them theself now amazing pronoun usage another fumble now. Norm tosses the gay beer to Chaz, the non binary character.
Of Jazz, Uh Chaz.
Chaz fumbles the catch and says, and that's not.
Even that's not a gay zoomer name. Chazz is like something like, that's that's gen x Chazz totally yeah, well.
Again because this is all made by gen x people.
Yeah, exactly, Yes.
Chaz fumbles the catch and says that they can't drink because they're not twenty one, and Larry Elder replies, y'all influence my boy and to cut off his junk, but draw the line at beer, and then Chaz hides behind the couch to call upper level government operatives who are advising them on this re education assignment.
I got it.
Before we get into this, I want to start with what doesn't make sense about that bit, which is that if Chaz was straight edge, right, and they were kind of chickin, if they actually knew anything about like the real sort of culturals kind of divides that are coming in around gen Z and gen Alfa, they could have made a point that like, yeah, this generation of kids doesn't get drunk and do drugs the way like millennials did, and that's an actual like cultural cleavage point. But Chaz
is not straight edge. Chas is just saying I cannot legally drink beer.
Which right, no gay person has ever.
Seen, which no game.
But it like the fact that unless unless they're straight edge, Yeah.
Larry Elder then comes in and says like, oh, this is a characteristic but it wasn't like a characteristic of you queer gen z kids. But the queer gen Z kid did not express that as like a characteristic of his identity. He was just stating this is illegal.
Because it's illegal. Yeah, very yeah.
Anyway, anyway, when.
Chaz is conference calling with this this upper level government we have, we have this general in like a in like a kink dog mask who barks, and there's a trans woman admiral who says, find a way to break him, maybe we can fix the country. I believe the admiral is a really transphobic character of US Assistant Secretary for Health Rachel Levine. And yeah, it's not even a good character.
It's just it's just it doesn't look like at all there is.
There's also another another character which Robert identified as a possible hate crime and and tasked me with locating who this person is. And I leave with about one hundred percent certainty that this is a character of Sam Brinton, who was appointed the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Spent Fuel and Waste Disposition in the.
Office Nuclear Energy. Are you kidding me?
Apartment of Energy?
Now?
Ah, these people are so fucking conservative social media brain, what are you fucking come on?
Brinton may be well known to some of our listeners as being let go in late twenty twenty two after being linked to a series of airport luggage thefts. One of the funniest things that's ever happened. This person could not stop stealing luggage from airports so much that they got fired from the Department of Energy.
That's amazing.
This this goes back to like twenty eighteen years. God, there's funny years of airport It's so funny. But again, if this was a good comedy thing, they would have some kind of bit like maybe maybe they would be holding like a like a like a you know, like a collection of luggage. But no, they're just they're they're just they're just standing behind the Progress Pride flight Like that's it. Like it's not funny.
Yeah, because again, because the actual funny thing about this would be to have like your government character be someone at the Department of Energy who got taxed with this through some sort of incoherent DEI narrative and also a character trait as they are always stealing luggage, and like
you could actually be bits around that over time. But they just they threw all these people in knowing that like the two hundred people who are as right wing online as them would get who all these were as opposed to doing the thing that you would do if you were actually making a show for mainstream consumption, which is like make fun of people that the audience will recognize.
Throw with Joe Biden in there right, like obviously you're doing this in twenty twenty four, Like where is anyone that someone who's not completely lost their mind to this stuff will recognize?
And this is this is the climax of the pilot. It's it's so, it's so bad. After Chaz has this little phone call, the fake camera zooms back to show a fake animated studio audience, and the bad country theme song plays once again, and and now now I will play it for you, because this section is both so pandering but also oddly genuine.
Towards the end, newly same as you know, everythanks changing and I don't know this will not Marri And thank God for relungbows and.
The ship those maids, it says the fall free speech.
When the song goes, thank god for Elon Musk and his ship, post memes he is the home for free speech, and unvoiced animated Elon Musk pops through the door for no reason.
And he's someone. Someone on Twitter took a screen grab off the Elon Musk and said they gave him that in Smith look and he does look like one of the fish people from Insmuth. That's not a flattering caricature. I think it's meant to be.
It is because like it's it's I don't know. This is a really interesting moment because this is where it gets like kind of like genuine. Jess Hawkin wrote, the part that blows my mind about this video is the Elon Musk cameo where the bitterness and resentment of the video melts away into still believing in Santa Claus and it gets it gets just so weirdly genuine with this, with this like the kind of heartfelt, saccharine Elon Musk ending Well.
Speaking of genuine, Garrison, the main thing that's genuine is our love of these sponsors.
Okay, we are packed so there. After watching this pilot, there's there's a lot of questions to be asked. Why is there a fake animated studio audience? You know, pretty bad? My friend Ellie Erman pointed out, like why is the protagonist so unpleasant even in their perfect fantasy world? And also why is the word sitcom hyphenated in the title something that you don't do? Just a lot of a lot of baffling things. So there was there was a
mix of reactions to this. You know, some of the blue checks on Twitter were kind of lapping this stuff up. One person with the username Amazing Gaming Productions wrote, I know some people are critiquing it, but my fee once and I laughed at a couple points. It's a good start. I hope you continue to work on it. We need all of the indie material we can create. And included in this tweet is a picture of a very poorly drawn avatar saying, Hi, my name is Indye David. I'm
here to fight Goliath. Mainstream Oh my God is a gamer Gate two themed gaming company who wants to create anti woke games. They've done in nothing. They just post really bad artwork. And I cannot overstate how bad.
Why his neck so wide and so long?
For how bad the TV show's animation is this? This reply was just so bad I had to point it out. Just incredible.
Yeah.
Now, Dave Rubin, the possible alleged potential most likely creator of the show, does air his work on Blaze TV, you know by by uh by Glenn Beck, and even even other Glenn Beck employees could not could not help but point out how terrible this is.
Uh.
Logan Hall, writer for Glenn Beck's The Blaze, wrote, quote, TV shows on leftism the cringiest, most unwatchable, nauseating trash ever created TV shows on conservatism, somehow even worse and one of the most brain poisoned. Conservative cartoonists George Axopolos basically like a discount Stone Toss wrote, quote, South Park had ed this has as much edge as uncooked sour dough. Between this and the Daily Wires limp cartoon, they may
as well be flushing money down the toilet. He then went on to say, give me a small team, a million dollars and total creative control, and we will make a cartoon pilot that will melt faces. So again he just wants to to get his own his own TV show, but a whole bunch of these, you know, kind of right wing cultural critics were we're not we're not infused with this, with this outing because it's because it's really bad.
So I want to get into kind of who is behind this now the full I hesitate to say creative team, but the people by the same team. Yeah, the team behind the New Norm Show. Not to be confused with the Fox two season documentary show The New Norm have been have been largely kept secret, possibly out of fears of humiliation.
Yeah, that's how you know it's a good show.
But we at least do know some of the voice cast, right, Larry Elder plays the token black conservative who only exists to affirm that the main character isn't actually racist. Now, I doubt Larry Elder has much involvement beyond lending his voice and the other two confirmed voice Again, I hesitate to use the word talent or even actor, but the other two voice contributors are Dave Rubin and JP Sears.
Now I believe these two could be much more critical to what makes up the comedy of The New Norm Show. Not to be confused with the Oatly Oat Milk series of online puppet shorts titled The New Norm anal show. Now, I assume most people listening to this are familiar with Dave Rubin. Like many of these right wing influencers, he's a failed comedian turned political podcaster who's been positioning himself further and further to the right over the course of
the last decade. Now, JP Sears was a quote unquote holistic life coach who turned kind of into like a YouTube skeptic type satirical comedian, and while trying to parody new age WU and conspiracy theories, JP was peddling his own pseudoscience and adopting more and more conspiratorial beliefs. Over time, JP and his comedy began moving further and further to the right. But the COVID nineteen lockdown was kind of the breaking point where he went all in on anti vaxx,
COVID nineteen and January sixth conspiracy theories. But I think there has to be at least one other contributor, you know, behind like the art and design of the show, and I can't I can't figure out who that is. I scrolled through all of the tweets to try to find out if this account had another name. I can't find out who exactly this other person is. There is there
is one mystery, one mystery component. But one interesting thing I did uncover is that the New Norm show, not to be confused with the twenty twelve TV show The New Normal, has been in production in some form for over four years. They've been working on this for over four years. There's one frame from a video titled Character Sketch Evolutions posted on September nineteenth of last year, and this show's project files stretching all the way back to
January of twenty twenty. They've been working on this since January twenty twenty. Early sketches of the daughter feature and Antifa and transgender tattoo on her left arm. Also she has a kefia and posters that read Vegans for Palestine, all all in twenty twenty artwork.
Wow.
Yeah, yehow that's kind of fascinating because the daughter character in the published pilot is just wearing like a hoodie and like a beanie's. There's none of.
These got like some bracelets that have like a there's at least one off her bracelets has a rainbow on it, which I think is the only queer signaling or like kind of it really signaling of any kind that we get. And she has an Apple Watch because lol gen z. But yeah, the otherwise her design is completely boring, like there's nothing going on.
And I found this other, this other thing that is maybe a little bit you know, behind the scenes, look at what this may have been. So last March this account posted a little comic strip saying I'll look at how it began as a comic strip. So possibly this may have originated as not being an animated series but instead an online webcomic, which might explain a few things.
And also that I assume the mystery contributor that we don't know probably was working on the webcomic and then kind of rope gain more and more people the sated series. But I am going to read out this webcomic just because it is fascinatingly bad.
Oh my god, Oh my god.
Norm says, for twenty years our address was seven Columbus Ave. Now it's callin Kaepernick Drive.
That's his daughter saying.
That, and everyone thinks I feel so. The mom says fancy, the daughter says woke, and Norm says sick. And then a whole bunch of news crews show up at Norm's front door. They say, what's it like to live in the most woke address in town? And Norman says, I refuse to call it callin Kaepernick Drive. It's Columbus Av. The news media says any last words before the angry mob shows up. Should we call a fire department for you? And Norman says, I thought you snowflakes defunded them too.
It's not even no, no one was talking about defunding the fire department. Not true anyway.
It's it's like it's just not even a joke, right, like the the there's not like a release of tension or anything with like the the end bit being like him saying, why would we call the fire department he defunded that? It's not It's like, it's not a joke.
No, Like the last series of panels are even more disconnected. Yeah, they are back inside the doors closed norm says Chloe, which I guess is his daughter's name. Never said in the pilot, Chloe, why must your generation change everything? And then the doorbell rings delivery. The mom answers the door and says, sorry, wrong address. This is now Colin Kaeprinick Drive. Ben Affleck Boulevard is two streets down where James Woods Parkway used to be.
My god, that's what is that? Even that is that? Even? Do you really like?
Is it?
They were okay James would get fallen. They replaced it with ben Affleck Boulevard.
If you could if you were someone who was like kind of conservative but not completely brain poisoned, you could actually get some good bits out of Like they changed the name of this street from Columbus Avenue to Colin kaepern to drive Now. The smart way to play off of that would be to make it very clear that the town has a bunch of existing issues with inequality and racism that they have not dealt with in lieu of changing the name of a single street and pretending
things are better. And you can actually, like there's things you could do with that were you actually making comedy. But like the fact that they the fact that the escalation is rather than sort of like examining this world and like why shit like this gets done just to kind of like make these like performative gestures. Instead, it's like, and next they're going to replace James Woods with ben Affleck? Which therey good do the gen Z kids do the
progressives like ben Affleck? Does anyone feel all that strongly about ben Affleck?
No, we had to start naving street after ben Affleck. Also, why would there be a James Woods Parkway anyway? Whatever?
Yeah, who's naming a street after name a thing? James Woods has been in like.
Oh my god. So the marketing of this pilot is even is almost as baffling as the pilot itself. Right, there's a few slogans they like to use, first of all, the South Park of X, which is already just brilliant, it's hard, legalize humor, very very funny, and make America funny again. They will often just tweet these phrases out with no context, and sure, why not. The home page on their website reads quote The New Norm. Not to
be confused with the ongoing podcast series. The New Norm is an animated sitcom for our woke world, an edgy yet family friendly comedy that shines a funny light on today's most divisive issues and gives Americans a safe space to come together and laugh. Just fantastic stuff.
Great, great, I love again. I made a comment about this, but I love that they're calling this the South Park of X because like the South Park, guys would never put a cartoon or anything else on X because they actually make things that are commercially successful and so real companies will buy their shows, whereas if you're putting something on X, it means that there's no money in what
you're doing. It means that you your show is going to be monetized alongside those ads for games that don't exist that just show like boy like little action cartoon characters leaping into the legs of like very horny drawings of Gorgan's and shit and actual straight up pornography because there is no money on.
X Family friendly so funny. Now, there are a few reviews that they post on the new norm website. Bill Mahers has brilliant, Dave Rubins has beautiful, Larry Elders has relevant, timely and funny men and Kevin.
He's literally in.
He's one of the voices, so is Steve Ruben and Kevin Sorbo says All in the Family for our time. Wow, Robert, Well, what is All in the Family? Because I am a zooming.
I need you explain a couple of things. All in the Family was a groundbreaking sitcom show from like fifteen or twenty years before you were born.
Even longer than that, I mean it was like it was like the seventies.
Right, yeah, oh shit, it was like thirty or forty years before you were born.
Yes, it's way way before my time. It's before your time.
Yes, yes, it is, and uh, Kevin Sorbo. Do you know who Kevin Sorbo was?
Even Robert I grew up watching Christian movies. I am intimately familiar with Kevin Sorboh.
Okay, okay, but I know why he actually got famous. He was, yes, in a show that again predates your existence.
But it's now just your bad Christian actor. Now, these reviews are funny, not only because two of these people giving reviews on the site are literally in the pilot, but also let's look at the Bill Maher quote brilliant. Do you think Bill Maher has seen this pilot?
No?
I don't.
He hasn't.
No.
Do you know why? Of course, because underneath the text that says in quotes brilliant, it says brilliant Bill Maher, HBO Real Time Host, And then in much smaller text, it says, speaking of the show creator's previous work featured on HBO, he's just talking about Dave Rubin being interviewed on his show. At some point Bill Maher said brilliant to Dave Rubin, And now they're using this as a quote endorsing this show.
Man.
I kind of I feel like, so fifteen years or so ago, back when he was still alive. Roger Ebert shared one of my articles that I wrote for Cracked, and I kind of want to take his feedback on that and claim that, like like dress it up his feedback for our podcast. Yeah, Roger Hebert loves this show that was made ten years after he died. Well he doesn't, but he said something nice about something else I did a long time ago, so I think he would support.
Show creator's previous work. It's amazing. And I we will return to the Kevin Sorbo quote about All in the Family for our time. Yes again, Like this isn't even just a parody of like All in the Family. They're they're taking certain they're they're taking certain elements, but but not like actually satirizing them. They're just kind of doing them again. And do you know what we're gonna do again, Robert, good ads, We're gonna, we are, we gonna, We're gonna go to add.
We're going We're going to transition, which the people who make this show would really hate.
Okay, we are back. I have a few images from the from the marketing of this that you're gonna love.
Robert.
Back in September, the New Norm shows. Twitter posted this picture It's a very bad cardoon Mike god, Ben Shapiro, Tucker Carlson, and Joe Rogan.
What are these?
It has one like and textra says who is your fav street A small they made bit Shapiro and Joe Rogan. Oh, and there is another another image of Norm the titular character saying thank you Chaya Wrycheck and Elon Musk for the freedom to say amen. Now that the word amen was undemonetized. So most of their marketing kind of look kind of looks like this. It's just it's talking about other more popular right wing content creators or just praising Elon Musk. That is most of the marketing for the show.
It seems their primary marketing strategy seems to be sucking up to Elon Musk to attract attention from him and his fan base. Now, I haven't seen anyone else talking about this yet, but the New Norm Show, not to be confused with the New Norm McDonald Show, actually released
their first video project last March. It was titled Elon Musk xaoc ai Animation unquote what, with show creator Dave Rubin saying the future of animation is AI The video starts with an AI image of Elon Musk in a black suit, with voiceover of Norm A dressing Musk saying, Hey, Elon, check this out. We cut to a congressional deposition where AOC is questioning Elon Musk, who is wearing a spacesuit about him, replying, quote unquote true to a meme posted by Norm saying that AOC is hot but not smart.
Mister Musk, call me Elon.
There's a slow motion love heart sequence of Elon and AOC staring at each other, and Elon says, I have a hands on approach to the world's population crisis.
You'll never get your hands up on me. I'm boycotting you.
Then go yourself.
God, he looks like a cherub in that spacesuit.
What is so?
Yeah?
Here, here's here's Ai Norm and AI Elon Musk sitting in this courtroom.
Now.
Norm says that it's because of Elon's reply quote that millions of people saw my post. So in this in this like little to no effort AI short, they straight up lay out their intentions behind all of this, clamoring for Musk's attention and approval.
Right.
Their goal is that if Elon Musk can see their stuff, maybe he'll spread it and it will be popular. That's the intention.
A nine year old boy, Oh yeah.
He does.
He does look like like cherub Elon Musk. Absolutely yeah. But so this is this is their entire strategy, right, It's to make content that they hope Elon Musk will see and then boost so that people will give them money. That's that's the entirety of the bit. In the replies to this AI short film, everyone who like expressed that they liked it, saying like so funny or just like a laugh emoji. The norm account replied to every single
one of these tweets with a thumbs up emoji. That's it, I got, that's that's it, like sometimes with a flaming thumbs up, sometimes with a regular thumb up emoji, but replying to every single tweet they just did a thumbs up. It's so it's so lazy, like like.
Content goes out. That's some intern who's getting paid by there in like or if they're getting paid or whatever, however they're getting evaluated. They want to be able to claim that they were doing lots of work. So yeah, they're just going through and thumbs uping every post. That's my wild So.
This is all kind of reminiscent of The Daily Wire's own animated comedy, mister Burcham right now, mister Burchram, we talked about in our in our in our Daily Wire episodes earlier this year, but it was it was pitched to Fox, like over a decade ago. They even made a ten minute animatic. Fox passed, and so did every other network and streaming service also declined to pick up the project until until it came across Jeremy Boring's desk a few years ago.
And Jeremy Bowring said, Adam Carolla, that's who the kids love these days.
So yeah, they green lit the show and it is now airing on The Daily Wire Plus. But most of the jokes are super outdated because again this was pitched ten years ago, over ten years ago, so there's a wholench of just like vegan jokes, Like it's jokes that maybe would have been transgressive in twenty eleven.
You know.
Of course, there's like there's like a few updated jokes thrown in there, but like not many. So in terms of the New Norm show, not to be confused with the many other projects with the same title, only the three minute pilot episode is out right now right. They are soliciting more money and that's the main drive of putting out this pilot is that they are spreading around this donation link like crazy. They've explicitly said when does
the first episode drop? Soon but sooner if y'all give here with the donation link.
Yeah.
Two other tweets read quote support this show to animate the first season, and support this show and help fight the woke mind virus with laughter unquote. I don't think this will actually ever get made because no one's gonna support this because it's garbage.
This is like that reddap Family an FT cartoon exactly, which I'm still hard well.
That they're doing is trying to get you know, like unfortunate souls to donate money to this, and uh, I don't think the right wing billionaires are going to be funding this the same way they fund other Daily Wire projects. So this seems kind of dead in the water. This seems like it, you know, not much thought was put into it. It's lazy. It's also completely stealing a Simpson's joke from nineteen ninety nine. This is the big thing
I discovered. So I've been trying to watch more nineties Simpson lately, Good for You, Good for You, Solid Move, And as I was watching the three minute pilot, something started to feel a little bit familiar. And then I read the Kevin Sorbo review All in the Family for
Our Time, and I realized something. This whole show is just stealing a cutaway gag from a nineteen ninety nine Simpsons episode about a fake sitcom called All in the Family nineteen ninety nine, in which a new, more woke and inclusive a version of the original show is airing on TV. And here's a collection of images Robert in my Google document that shows early concept art of Norm looking exactly like the main character of.
Yeah, Down with the Cigar.
It literally, the picture of him in the chair looks traced. It is the exact same. There is a diverse cast.
And standing next to him exactly the woman's study major in her birkenstocks exactly. It got a Rabbi in there as opposed to the which is some nineties diversity. Colm.
But like, and I remember that bit too, which is like a it's actually a because there were conservatives writing on the Simpsons in the nineties, one of the John Schwartzwelder, was like a famous libertarian, like he's a but he's also like funny, and so they made a good bit about like pec like the rash of like overtly politically correct shows right like it's it's it's a it's a fun little aside joke that Schwartzwelder was enough of a comedian to know is good for about six seconds exactly.
And I will play those six seconds right now and at nine thirty All in the Family nineteen ninety nine.
Who geez did he got me living with an African American, a semi American, and a woman American there.
And I'm glad I loved you so all, I love everybody.
I wish i'd shaved my money from the first show.
Yeah.
See, there's there's, there's there's a couple of different jokes there. Yeah, there's multiple jokes in that three seconds or so. It's such a good layered joke on the part of the Simpsons.
It has the parody of Archie from All in the Family kind of being like offensive in an old fashioned way, you know, bemoaning that he has to be around all these people, but also saying that he loves everyone in the way that these kind of shows like to play both sides by showing the main character is still good nature despite his faults, and then he flips again saying he's he's only come back to do the show because
he needs money. The bit doesn't overstate it's welcome, it lasts only like ten seconds, and yet is infinitely more funny than the entirety of this three minute pilot, And Dave Rubin actually thought he could just rip off a shore to obscure Simpson's joke and stretch it into an entire show and no one would notice. So I was really happy to find that this was just stealing an old Simpson's joke really poorly too.
And because I've been watching more older Simpsons, I've also realized that a lot of the jokes and ladyballers are also just completely stolen from Simpsons, but ripped of the context that makes them funny. So all of these like right wing like cranks we're trying to produce this comedy stuff, they're all just kind of going back to old Simpson's jokes that people, hopefully you have like forgotten and are injecting them without the actual humorous context into all these
anti woke projects. And it doesn't work. It simply doesn't. For one, it's plagiarizing, and the second and and like secondly it's it's just bad. But yes, I will I will post some of these comparison pictures on h on my Twitter at Hungry bow Tie if you want to see the uh, the shocking, shocking hard works.
That was a fine investigation, Garrison, because you're definitely right, like this is this is a carbon copy of of a cutaway gag about all in the family. That's so fucking funny.
Even the background house is the same look. They have, the staircase the same the door, like it's everything is in the exact same position.
It's wild.
I know they said this.
They sent this to an animator, like they sent that
screen grab to the animated That's so funny. God, this The Simpsons was such a good show and its golden years that people are still trying to competently rip it off, and again they compare themselves to like the South Park of X. South Park even did a much better job of ripping off The Simpsons and making that be the focus of an episode that like everyone rips off the Simpsons because of how the long they've been going on, Like yeah, anyway, whatever.
They were smart enough to remove the cigar in the final pilot, but all because because that would be just so obvious. But all the concept ared that they've posted on Twitter, like half a year ago has has him with a cigar wearing a white button up shirt and it.
Looks it is it is.
It is almost traced. It is like, yeah, his his his arm.
They threw on the vests distract.
It's it's phenomenal. So yeah, amazing stuff from Dave Rubin. He I guess shouldn't have quit interning at the at A at John Stewart back in the two thousands. Maybe maybe he could have had a better life, but instead, instead we get this, so great job, Dave Rubin. I wish you only the best in your future creative works.
Yeah, this is what's going to get him that plush writing gig on the Rick and Morty season. I don't know whatever the next one is. I'm sure he's on the cusp.
Oh he's close to breaking through. I can feel it.
Yeah yeah, all right, right, well I'm glad. I'm gonna go watch some classic Simpsons again.
Thank you.
For reminding me. Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the Universe.
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