It Could Happen Here Weekly 103 - podcast episode cover

It Could Happen Here Weekly 103

Oct 21, 20234 hr 36 min
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All of this week's episodes of It Could Happen Here put together in one large file

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Transcript

Speaker 1

As media. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going to be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions. Ah, welcome back to behind. Wait no, sorry, it could happen here.

Speaker 2

You know.

Speaker 1

We'll keep that in so that our audience, who I know is deeply tied to the myth of my own perfection, knows that I too, air speaking of perfect creatures who have never made a mistake. Our guest today is Dan Olsen. Hello, welcome, Hi Dan.

Speaker 2

How you doing.

Speaker 1

I'm doing well, not making mistakes exactly exactly. You are the Buddha I met on the road, and I'm going to say hello, teach me how to be flawless.

Speaker 3

Right?

Speaker 2

So, first, have you heard of gold?

Speaker 3

Yes?

Speaker 1

Yes, I was about to talk about gold. The perfect investment Dan, perfect investment vehicle never fails. So Dan, you are a YouTuber, an investigator, one of my favorite researchers. We had you on recently to talk well a couple of months ago, I donuple time, Flat Circle etcheda, but we had you wanted to talk about your work reporting on the NFT bubble bursting and on the metaverse bubble bursting, and more recently, you just published a two and a half hour documentary investigation into.

Speaker 2

The game Stop stock cult.

Speaker 1

Which is a lot of people are aware of the first part of this, which is that in January twenty twenty one, a bunch of folks started like buying you via some weird Reddit movement, started buying huge amounts of game Stop stock, which, in a period of pretty exaggerated decline, caused it to briefly surge in value to absurd levels.

Speaker 2

And I think that's where most.

Speaker 1

People kind of and then, you know, eventually it fell apart, and I think that's where most people kind of stopped paying attention.

Speaker 4

Yeah, they they remember that week where it was like in the news, and then they just kind of assumed like that was it.

Speaker 5

Yeah.

Speaker 4

So yeah, it's it's been a It's an interesting and weird ride because the evolution into like cult like behavior was.

Speaker 2

It was a very strange journey.

Speaker 4

It happened surprisingly rapidly, but also not that surprisingly, Like once you fully unpack it, you know you have this Internet movement that is very nebulous in its origins or not in its origin. Sorry, the orders are very straightforward, like Wall Street Bets is a gambling sub that had like it self describes as if four Chan found a Bloomberg terminal, so sure you know it's it's crass, it's

irony poisoned. You can get just as much social clout for losing thousands of dollars as you can for winning

thousands of dollars. In fact, there's an argument that there's more clout for lost porn than there is for like actually posting big gains obviously, like not like the healthiest or most wholesome community you could you could imagine, but you know, out of that plus COVID madness, plus stimulus checks and just general nihilism arose this kind of Frankenstein short squeeze play on game Stop that weirdly never actually happened, because the play just sort of turned into its own

self fulfilling thing that enough people believed in the idea of this short squeeze play that they just kept piling in and piling in, and suddenly like the short squeeze doesn't actually matter at all because there's enough critical mass flooding in that you just get this massive pump anyway, which convinces people that, oh, the squeeze is going on, because in the moment you don't actually know like what

mechanisms are driving the price movement. You just see number going up, and so more people kept piling in, piling in, piling in. I got a phone call from, you know, from a friend of mine who's like, hey, have you heard about the GameStop stuff? And I'm like, yes, I heard about it two days ago, So if you heard about it today, it's it's way too late.

Speaker 2

Do not over. It's over.

Speaker 4

And sure enough, like I went back and reviewed our text messages and like, and if he had bought, he would have been a just massive bag holder.

Speaker 2

Like it it plummeted, you.

Speaker 1

Know, hours later, and like for people who are not finance people, which I certainly am not, this is like if you watched The Big Short, Uh, that's kind of the tax I mean number one. That movie is seen as a blueprint by a lot of these guys. Obviously there's folks, knowledgeable financial folks who have critiques of that movie, but it is it is accepted as like almost kind of like a sacred text within the Game Stop Stop Yeah community.

Speaker 4

And it's weird because like they're the game Stop enemy, the the the ape.

Speaker 2

Okay, well I'll just use their lexicon. We'll go over real quick.

Speaker 4

They call themselves apes for reasons that are not worth explaining. Their enemy are short sellers. But short sellers are like Doc Bury short sold the housing market. And Bury is that's Christian Bales character, right, Christian Bales character.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Like.

Speaker 4

All of the main characters in that movie short sold the housing market.

Speaker 2

Like that.

Speaker 4

That was their play. That was the big short was. They're like, look, there's this bubble, we're going to short sell it. Then when the price goes down, we close our positions out and keep a tremendous amount of money.

Speaker 1

And I should we should go just because when I watched this with a friend, they did not know what short selling was. It's not I think normal, it's not a thing normal people will.

Speaker 2

Ever be in a position to do.

Speaker 1

The basic idea and this is all occurring with like stocks and commodities, but the basic idea is you make an agreement with somebody to get basically a loan of a bunch of shares in something, right, and with the understanding that you will give those back at a point

in the future. And then you take those and you immediately sell them for their their present value, right, and your hope, your like play it like goal is that the value of that drops and then you are able to buy back an equivalent amount to repay the loan and have made a profit based on the gap between those two numbers.

Speaker 2

Right, that's the idea.

Speaker 4

That's that's the that's the idea. You you can, as an individual like do this.

Speaker 2

You can.

Speaker 4

You can take out a short position with your broker, you can. You can do it through derivatives like puts. I wouldn't recommend it.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's it's not normal people's stock stuff.

Speaker 4

Yeah, it's not normal people's stock stuff. Like you're there's nothing legally barring you from doing it. But it really is kind of this like advanced play. You got to know what's going on, especially because like a thing that a lot of people in the description sort of skip over,

is it. Well, you're borrowing it, you know, you're borrowing a thing, and thus there's the expectation that you'll pay some kind of like you know, borrowers fee akin to a kin to interest on like the value of the thing that you've borrowed, but like it's it's not interest on you know, like a housing loan where the interest and like where your payments all are geared towards paying off the loan. It's just kind of like, all right, you owe me five bucks every single month forever as

long as you're holding this. And so you know, if you're not paying attention, like, you need to be very actively managing these kinds of positions otherwise, like your borrowing fees will just eat up all of your profit.

Speaker 1

Yeah, And it's the kind of thing where like today most of those kind of kinds of trades aren't even really made by people directly. They're made by massive banks of computers and algorithms and shit kind of yeah.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1

Anyway, I think that's that's enough background back to the kind of cult aspect of it, which is I think much more relevant for what we're talking about here. One of the points you made early on that I found really interesting is is that a significant amount of the

initial game stock game stops. I'm going to keep doing that hype was driven by influencers, right, and that there's evidence based on kind of the US government's analysis of this that got published that like regulators are paying additional attention at increasing attention to the influences that that or to the impact that influencers can have here, because there's this concern that, especially working in groups, there's like an ability for people like this to disrupt the economy to

a significant extent a way that would affect like normal people.

Speaker 4

Yeah, so one of the weird kind of so pump and dumps have existed forever, right. The thing was is that so the the memes stock run up, it wasn't just GameStop. It was about like fifteen twenty, like in January twenty twenty one, like so late twenty twenty, early twenty twenty one. It was about fifteen twenty different companies, you know, Nokia, BlackBerry, bed Bath and Beyond, like you know, just kind of a bunch of over the hill companies that were all sort of part.

Speaker 2

Of this this wave.

Speaker 4

And the issue was that in the game stop price run up, So the price went from at the end of twenty twenty as everybody like as sort of the meme wave like begins, and particularly once Ryan Cohen, billionaire Chewy.

Speaker 1

Founder Chewy the Cat treat or dog.

Speaker 2

Online dog food sales. Yeah.

Speaker 4

Yeah, when he buys in like that kind of like puts the stamp of approval on the whole thing. So it goes from like four and a half dollars up to nineteen something, and then at the end of January it goes from nineteen twenty dollars up to four hundred and eighty and so in that spread the short sales,

so there was short interest in game Stop. There was, in fact a rec less amount of short interest in game Stop, but the price increase was so huge, the volume of participation was so big, so many people were jumping on this that the short interest closing their position. The actual like short squeeze portion of all of this is only like ten percent of the price movement. All the rest of it is just people fomoing in on like this thing.

Speaker 2

That they heard about through their cousin.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 1

I think another thing that's kind of interesting to me is like, as this thing has evolved, you know, you mentioned that the actual price got up to like close around five hundred dollars by the time this thing kind of transitions into being this millenarian kind of apocalypse cult right, like not you know, nukes and stuff, end of days apocalypse generally, but like a the entire economy is going to come The belief that kind of has evolved broadly

and that obviously there's different kind of actions is but is that like there is going to come a point where, like the price of games stop stock will increase to such an insane some people say hundreds of millions, billions of dollars per share that it effectively allows all of these apes who have bought shares to hold the entire world economy hostage until they have their increasingly ourcane demands met, right, Yeah, that is the belief, and that.

Speaker 2

Is the belief.

Speaker 4

So so out of that, like so okay, so the short's closing was only like about ten percent of the of the total movement. So that leads to the conclusion that you know that the events of January twenty twenty one weren't a short squeeze, which is actually kind of true, Like it wasn't it wasn't purely a short squeeze. It was actually very little of it was a short squeeze, but because it wasn't a short squeeze like that term then allows the creative individual to fill in the gap

and just say that. It's like just say this like, oh, the short squeeze never happened, Therefore it's still on the table, the short like the the end. You know, it hasn't

happened yet, therefore it can still potentially happen. And in fact, if we just like look at the trend line, like I bet since it hasn't happened, since it didn't happen, and the position that they held in December was so reckless, it's only gotten worse since, which means that they're getting which means that these short sellers must be getting desperate, which means they're going to be willing to engage in

whatever level of depraved criminal activity is necessary to protect themselves. Therefore, it's just getting more and more and more and more extreme. Therefore, when this finally goes off, it's not just going to be like, it's not just going to be a five hundred dollars price point, it's going to be a nuclear

explosion that's going to topple the entire economy. Yeah, and that's that's this like of logic and what they and it all comes from that, just like missing the fact that it's like, oh, it wasn't a short squeeze because it was mostly fomo. The short squeeze was buried under a mountain of fomo. Yeah, but so it wasn't a short sc It's like, yeah, it's all just like based in these like word games of like, ah, you said it, you know that the dumb and dumber. You know, it's like,

what are the odds a one in million? So you're saying there's a chance. It's like, well, yeah, that's not what I'm saying.

Speaker 1

It's interesting because of the impossibility of the things they're actually hoping for, but also their fundamental belief that like it's inevitable, in part because you know, this is this is not wildly different from the psychology of like needing to believe in uh that you are going to paradise in the after.

Speaker 2

Yeah, hallmarks of millennarians. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1

Because of that, what you get is a lot of people who think that they are thinking scientifically, but what they're doing is taking an endpoint, and the endpoint is that you know this specific you know these hedge funds or whatever are are evil and you know, illegally bribing or whatever the government to stop us from succeeding, or

there's this other conspiracy. You're starting with this endpoint and then working backwards and like finding ways to explain the things that have happened within that framework, like the.

Speaker 2

Things that would need to be true in order for the yeah thing.

Speaker 1

To happen, like the thing that like Citadel must have ordered robin Hood to stop letting people buy and share game stock stocks rather than like, you know what what actually happened, which is that robin Hood simply like could not exist if they allowed this to continue. Yeah, and you know legally, I don't believe there's anything that was stopping them from doing that. It's medieval peasant brain kind

of stuff, is what I initially like. That's how when I was watching your documentary, I was like, Oh, it's this you know, this need to find this kind of like magical answer to the problem. And then I like interrogated that conclusion and was like, well, no, it's not. This is just the way people's brains work, right, Yeah, like we're pattern making. This isn't medieval pissant shit. They're no dumber than we are. Like, yeah, that's what this shows.

Speaker 7

Yeah.

Speaker 4

And one of the things that I love just kind of on that is that, like you if you had a time machine and you went back one hundred thousand years and and found a bunch of you know, homoliteral literal cavemen, yeah, actual apes more or less, you know, but like hundred thousand years ago, that's that's modern humans. Like, you know, genetically, that's genetically modern humans. You could just like implant yourself in their tribe and teach them calculus and you know, yeah.

Speaker 2

They would be short game stuff stuff that. It's like like we're like, things don't change.

Speaker 4

It's like he's like, yeah, no, we've been We've been doing this ever since we were you know, this pattern seeking doesn't change. It's almost like it is basically endemic to the human psyche. There's a really good question that that I've gotten in response to this is just like is this just secular religion? Like is this just are we just like wired to need faith in some shape or form and if that is not provided by some institution,

we will just invent it. And it's like I don't have the answer to that, but sign's point to yes.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Now, so I wanted to talk a little bit about one of the other things that you brought up that I thought was interesting is the way you've got this this cast of and these are you know, the influencers. These are the people who make a lot of these like arcane videos or put out these publish these prospectuses with dozens or hundreds of pages laying out you know, the arcana of how these different sort of anticipated apocalyptic financial moves are going to go out, right, Yeah, a

lot of these people. The belief is that that I think is accurate at least this is what I got from your documentary. Maybe I was interpreting you wrong, is that most of these or many of these people are not believers. They're manipulating a group of people because there's money in it. And one of the tactics that you see used a lot is kind of faux humility. Right, I'm just a dumb ape. You shouldn't trust me. I'm

not qualified to give financial advice. But here's the secret history of the universe to invest your money here.

Speaker 4

Now, So, I mean, you've seen this a lot with with various like cult leaders and pseudo cult leaders and just general like grift fluencers. You know, there's always this question of like how much of their own how much of their own hype do they believe? How much did they believe when they started, how much did they eventually just like convince themselves of as people you know, follow them, and I think it's it's very much like kind of a an individual case by case basis. Some of them

are absolutely true believers, like from the get go. Some of them, like a lot of them, are like soft believers, you know, you know where it's like they're not hardcore into it, you know, if you really pressed them, Like it's not motivating their their daily decisions. But what they're taking from it is like social reinforcement. That they've found a group of people who respond to them, who like their posts, who leave messages. It's like, oh man, this

blew my mind. I can't believe the system is like

this fragile. You know, my tits are jacked, lighting the fuse on the rocket ship, buying more moon tickets, you know, and they and they respond to that very socially, and and and out of that sort of soup of like reinforcing messages, it's really easy for people in those influencer positions to just kind of like hold conflicting like hold the conflicting beliefs of like, I know that this is impossible, but also so it is like fulfilling me socially to

say these things. I'll just I'll just juggle that inconsistency.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And the way the mechanics of social media, and particularly in this case, it's the mechanics largely of Reddit. That's not the only place this occurs, but Reddit is certainly

like the homeland. You could say, the way in which up votes and down votes work, and the way in which upvotes and down votes take you know, critical content people who are trying to induce some accuracy or you might even say sanity in the discussion, and that that gets pushed down and hidden after a certain point of time with enough down votes, as opposed to like the stuff that is fundamentally unhinged but is like utopian gets

up voted. It's it's the the physical, like the actual mechanics of how the site is structured to work enforce fund at a fundamental level, enforced group think consensus.

Speaker 2

Absolutely.

Speaker 4

Oh, and I mean in the best part about it. And we see this like all across Reddit communities. Which is this like it is it? It's the social enforcement of truth, that that people will take this social mechanism of up votes and down votes and use it as proof against the claim that it's like, oh, well if if your negative sentiment were true, it would have been

up voted. Yeah, because like there's this underline, there's this kind of just like implicit belief that people will recognize truth and will upvote truth, and thus up votes and down votes are are an accurate filter on reality, which is demonstrably not true.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 4

So yeah, that's intensely at play here because you'll see apes who will then like reference the fact that like that you know that it's like if this insane theory were false, why did it get so many up votes?

Speaker 2

Well? Because it it hypes you up. It makes you people are irrational.

Speaker 4

You got a tingle feeling in your tummy when you read it and the person told you that you were going to be a millionaire.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that's why.

Speaker 8

It's like asking why do we like magicians? Of course we like magicians. It's it looks nice, it's fun, it makes us feel a sense of wonder. Yeah, I want to discuss one of the terms that you use a lot that I missed the first couple of time because I'm not.

Speaker 2

I'm not.

Speaker 1

This is not a community I had studied. I thought you misspoke at first when you described like someone reach achieving a financial wind fall as wife changing money. I just thought you, like, I do that all the time, show it's delivererate.

Speaker 2

Yes, yeah, no, No.

Speaker 7

I was like, okay, this is a thing they say.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 4

A lot of people are like, I thought you misspoke. I'm like, no, that's because I was tricking you, Like I was. I was deliberately like very lighting in this term, like because like because they use it like obviously as a as an entendre yea, and I it's like, okay, like I'll just use it straight faced with no explanation three four times and then finally explain it at the end and make a lot of people angry when they realize that, like, no, they weren't just mishearing me.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 4

So that's one of those things like that goes to sort of the four Chan roots of of all of this, which is, you know, the sort of like crass irreverence slash misogyny of of chan speak and just this you know Wall Street bets will use this kind of like celebration of making so much money that you can afford

to be misogynistic and just like swap your wife. And it turns out that, like, as we know, you make a joke like that often enough, you're eventually going to attract the people who are just straight up like, yeah, I hate my wife.

Speaker 1

Yeah I want to be able to replace her, Yeah, using my using my crypto or my yeah whatever, my game stock Stop, god gains. I was wondering if you might lay out one of the things, the parts that was most interested in me was the whole Teddy Day, Teddy Day, Oh boy, Teddy d Yeah. Can you explain Teddy Day to our listeners?

Speaker 4

Okay, So Ryan Cohen, who fancies himself an activist investor, he buys into game Stop and gets a minority, pretty substantial holdings that count as like a minority thing. You need to file a bunch of paperwork with the sec that say, like you know, it's like I hold greater than ten percent of this company. And he used that position to basically get power inside the company itself as chairman as of a couple of weeks ago.

Speaker 2

He's now CEO.

Speaker 4

So so Ryan Cohen gets heavily involved with with Game Stop and he's like, I'm gonna turn this around because his real angs, what seems to be his anxiety in life at the moment, is this like sense of legacy. He doesn't just want to be like like, oh, I got lucky with an online pet food sales thing. I'm a I'm a real I'm a big boy finance guy, you know, I save dying companies, real rich guy hobby. He puts out a series of children's books called Teddy, named after.

Speaker 2

His late father.

Speaker 9

Uh.

Speaker 2

And these are it's it's five books that have a target audience of two year olds.

Speaker 4

That because you know, when when you're rich and you want to do something like that, you want to vanity published books. You don't just like go to an off the shelf vanity publisher. You make your own vanity publisher because in the scheme of things like that's just not that expensive.

Speaker 2

So Amazon has made it easier than ever, easier than ever.

Speaker 4

So he found this LLC, you know, air Quote Founds pays the like six hundred bucks in filing fees to create this LLC. Teddy Publishing files a whole bunch of trademarks. You know, we're talking like a few thousand dollars all in all in order to file, like in order to just file a bunch of paperwork. And this is all just like the scattershot stuff of like, Okay, we're making a product aimed at children, let's file the trademark for Teddy very broadly, and so it's going to cover like

basically children's merchandise across the board. You know, what if we want to put what if we want to put the characters on blankets or bottles or cups or plates or party supplies or whatever. So these trademarks are just incredibly wide ranging across just merch Yeah. But the existence of these trademark applications and this LLC becomes the seed for Teddy the company. As this like the mechanism through which Ryan Cohen is going to collaborate with Apes in

order to trigger MOASS. Because I guess this is the important thing about the mythology. Apes believe Ryan Cohen is on their side, that he is, he is their inside man, he is working with them. He is as frustrated as they are that this hasn't happened yet. But for like arcane legal reasons. He needs to like he needs to operate like a like a clockmaker, you know, he has to do everything very delicately and indirectly, and like his

hand cannot be seen pushing on the scales. So they think that it's like that this becomes the thing that they view all of their all of their hopes and dreams into his Teddy llc that it's like, this is the thing that he's going to use as the mechanism to do this. He's going to like buy game Stop via Teddy. He's gonna buy maybe some other company via Teddy. Teddy's going to get bought in to, like is gonna get bought by game Stop, like one way or another.

There were like hundreds of competing theories all rooted in in this.

Speaker 2

But then back in.

Speaker 4

January of this year, a insanity starts in two So in both GameStop forums and bed Bath and Beyond forums, the two meme stocks that are linked by Ryan Cohen, they they create this idea called Teddy Day, which is a combination of a bunch of things. So Ryan Cohen

tweeted several Titanic references. James Cameron's Titanic was being re released this past February on a day that aligned with National Teddy Bear Day, and so two different communities of apes, for completely separate reasons, latched onto this idea of Teddy Day. It was Friday, February tenth, twenty twenty three.

Speaker 2

They latched onto it.

Speaker 4

As just this that like, this is the day, this is when it's all going to come together, this is when he's going to make his big move. And a major driving piece of evidence that they had for Teddy Day was that in one of the Teddy books, the kids learned to read a clock and the hands on the clock are pointed to ten and two. So Ryan Cohen left them clues in this children's book published six months early, warning them that that February tenth was going to be the day that it all went down.

Speaker 2

That was the day of the apocalypse. That was Teddy Day.

Speaker 4

And it got just like the the spread of this got just like absolutely unhinged on the forms, like it was all that super stunk and BBB why we're talking about For like a week and a half leading up to it, the hype was like unreal and then of course nothing happened.

Speaker 2

You you I don't know if you noticed this.

Speaker 4

But but the US economy did not collapse last February.

Speaker 2

Oh that's good.

Speaker 1

I had been I have been living like a postal apocalyptic warlord under the assumption that it had. But all, yeah, I'll pivot now.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 4

So so it's just it's one of those like it's just such a great encapsulation of the fact that like that these communities, they will they will invent these these catalyst moments, convinced themselves that like, oh, here's a date that's upcoming, and then the moment that, like the great disappointment happens, some of them like bleed off, but for the most part, like it. Nothing can actually like stop the inertia. They can just discard it. And and they did.

They you know, no one talks about Teddy Day anymore except for the fact that like it, it had a brief Teddy Day two point zero as October second was like upcoming, because you know, ah, maybe it wasn't the tenth of February, it was the second of October, you know. And and sure like I'm willing to bet that when next February rolls around, like we'll we'll get Teddy Day three point zero.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I'm sure it just keeps this. The same thing has happened with like different kind of Christian apocalypse cults, right where you'll have a guy pick a day, then

the day comes and then there's always a reason. And fundamentally, because this becomes so much of someone's social life, because it becomes part of their emotional support network, because it's like fundamentally, you changes the way you talk, Like you learn so many new words that make it into your diction that like it's easier to just keep rolling the expected date ahead rather than like acknowledge that kind of fundamental hit to your self conception that admitting you got played would take.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 4

Yeah, the guy who does so religion for breakfast, Yeah, he picked up on the fact that, like I was using phrases like a great disappointment in in the video, like very deliberately, because it's like it's the it's the

same mechanism. So the great disappointment was like that's the event that caused the Seventh day Adventist to come into existence because it was like a expected date of the apocalypse of the Second Coming, Like yeah, didn't happen, and you end up with like this, then fragmentation of the aftermath, a bunch of people just bleed off. But you end

up with like a couple different factions. Ones who are like, ah, well, the date was like the date wasn't wrong per se, or like the idea wasn't wrong, just like the date was wrong, like maybe it's off by one hundred.

Speaker 2

Years or whatever.

Speaker 4

And you get other people who are like, actually, it did happen. It just happened in secret, like obviously it wasn't going to just like happen in Times Square. It happened, like you know, the millennium is already kind of like rolling underneath normal like normal looking society. It's going on right now. It's just day to day life hasn't changed. And that's how you know it's happening is that nothing's changing. It's like okay, okay, cool, so completely unfalsifiable, rad awesome.

Speaker 2

Love that for you. Yeah.

Speaker 1

So, one of the things that kind of related to that I have been thinking about a lot lately is we've.

Speaker 2

Got this.

Speaker 1

The story that keeps, you know, popping into the news every couple of usually a couple of times a year, that what are called nons are are increasing as a percentage of the population every single year, which is like people who are not affiliated to any religion. And I've seen, especially a few years ago, you know, atheists that I knew who were kind of like more active and like

atheism is a movement really celebrating this. I think that does Like the the assumption that that means that like atheism is growing more popular has been kind of fundamentally inaccurate. I think what we're seeing and what this this is kind of evidence of, is that like non affiliation with an organized religion is more common than ever. People are rejecting organized, settled religion at a kind of unprecedented rate

that's certainly undeniable. That doesn't mean they're as they are still believe and this is an example, right right, This is people are creating. The Internet has given created a tremendous capacity to build religions, and that's what people are doing.

Speaker 2

That's what this is.

Speaker 4

Yeah, And it's like how long lasting will it be? I mean, I don't in the scope of in the scope of world faiths, I don't think game stopism is is poised to stand the test of time. I don't think we'll be seeing an ape emperor any anytime soon.

Speaker 2

But yeah, like and and the thing is is that like you.

Speaker 4

Go back through history and like you you look at like religious archaeology, and like you start sort of breaking away from sort of this idea of Christian hegemony as being effectively like that it's like, okay, you know, once the Christianization of Rome happened, like it was was then locked in like until you know, Martin Luther, and then you get like fragmentation into sects, but like it stays like locked in, and it's like it's like nah, when

you start really digging into the history, it's like this is just this is always going on, This is always

boiling under the surface. You look at like Puritanism in America through a non like through just kind of like a human lens of like what you know about how people behave, and you suddenly start seeing that it's like, oh, they were just like in a constant, perpetual state of internal fragmentation as people had different ideas about like what was supposed to happen, what should happen, and just kind of like formed you know, cliques and factions, and sometimes

those factions got big enough to split off and then they lasted, you know, ten twenty thirty fifty years and then like either folded back into the main thing or or whatever. But this kind of like churn in in faith and belief is is just it's always there. It just in an organized, codified faith. It's a lot easier to lose track of it. Particularly from a historical perspective. It's a lot easier to just look at like the bigger picture and be like, ah, it was all the same, it was homogeneous.

Speaker 5

Uh.

Speaker 4

And it turns out no, yeah, sorry, that was a very no, no, no, there was. I threw a lot of like very big assumptions into a very tightly packed statement there.

Speaker 2

No, no, no. I think that was great.

Speaker 1

And yeah, that's that's kind of I think what I what I had to sort of ask about, you know, just sort of this fascination with the way in which almost anything can become a cult these day thanks to sort of the social dynamics of the different online communities and how they they reinforce each other. Like this is kind of at the center of almost everything that's a problem right now one way or the other.

Speaker 4

Right, Yeah, I think the thing that is new and modern really is the ability or is the I don't want to say ability, the phenomenon of decentralized self organizing belief systems. You know that like there's these a lot of the a lot of the meme stock influencers. You know, they're not leading it. They're just like nudging it. They're not in charge of it. And if they if any of them like tried to like really like seize the reins,

that that would get them like exiled. You know, any any kind of like overt power grab would be would be antithetical to it. But so it's the it's and it's the same thing like in QAnon, if somebody anyone who's come out and been like I am q listen to me, gets immediately just like just demolished by the faithful because like it's it's antithetical to their whole thing

to have a really identifiable leader. And and the fact that there is no identifiable leader, that that the leader is mythological is is useful and beneficial to the to the organization. And those kinds of like those kinds of movements, they're not unique to the modern age, but the modern age has made them very easy to form, almost by accident.

Speaker 1

Yeah, well, dan uh, this be something for people to continue to keep an eye on because it's not gonna stop.

Speaker 4

Probably, oh boy, I'm I'm there's gonna be some like amazing doctor dissertations on this subject in like ten years.

Speaker 1

Yes, I would, I would certainly agree with that. Well, Dan, you want to let the people know where they can find you.

Speaker 4

They can find me on YouTube. The channel name is Folding Ideas and I'm on Socials, Twitter, Blue Sky, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, as as Foldable Human.

Speaker 2

Excellent.

Speaker 1

All right, check out Dan's videos. Check out his YouTube channel, like and subscribe and.

Speaker 2

Check us out.

Speaker 1

But you already have because you're here, so continue to check us out.

Speaker 10

It's it's chaos in congreg This is this is it could happen here, the podcast about things Falling Apart and just this is a jest a falling Apart episode with though it's a kind of funny one.

Speaker 7

Yeah, I'm your host, Mia Wong and with me is Garrison Davis. Hello.

Speaker 11

Chaos every everywhere, but especially in Congress.

Speaker 5

So I just.

Speaker 7

Realized you grew up in Canada, which means I did. Yes, can can you explain what the speaker that? Do you know what the speaker of the House is for America.

Speaker 11

Yeah, it's the guy who like presides over the things and has the hammer and he yells, you.

Speaker 7

Know, that's that's that's that's that's pretty close. Okay.

Speaker 11

See see come.

Speaker 7

On, yeah, yeah, it's not bad. It's not bad. This is okay. So what we're we're going to go into a bit more death about what this person does because I don't know, the American Constitution was written by absolute clowns and there's some wild stuff there. But however, comma, you know, so some more seriously, this is a very this is a very sort of consequential and dangerous moment in American political history. And in this moment, Congress is incomplete chaos. It is it is. It is the most

non functional it has been in my entire life. And that is that is saying something like Congress has been non functional for my entire life. This is the worst it has ever been. And the reason this is the worst has ever been is that Kevin McCarthy, who is the now former Speaker of the House, was removed by a vote of no confidence on October third, which when this comes out, that will be exactly two weeks out.

And he is removed because he tried to cut a deal with the Democrats to avert a government shutdown untill the seventeenth, and he got the deal through.

Speaker 11

It would have been crazy if we had a shutdown till seventeenth. God, imagine, imagine, I met Jesus. Fuck.

Speaker 7

Here's the thing. Okay, there's no shutdown till the seventeenth. There's also a chance of a real serious chance that, like the shutdown starts and we still don't have a Speaker of the House. Oh yeah, like it's not that high, but it could happen, which is nuts. This has never happened before. Yeah, and so so I guess we should

we should go into specifically what hasn't happened before. And the thing that hasn't happened before is that no sitting speaker of the House dream their term, has ever been removed by a vote of no confidence, which is nuts because again, and I cannot emphasize this enough, for most of the two thousands, the Speaker of the House was a guy named Dennis Hastick, who was literally a pedophile, and he was not removed by a vote of no confidence.

So like, this is this is the level of you know, weirdness that we're in, like like literally the two hundred something year history of the US, this has never happened.

Speaker 11

And from my understanding, you don't actually have to be like an elected member of the House to be the speaker, which means they could carry on this tradition and they could get Polanski as Speaker of the House if they could ef thoughts to carry it over.

Speaker 7

You know, at this point, this is only we're gonna get you later. There was a there was a a two day span, two and a half days span where Trump was trying to get himself elected a Speaker of the House. Yes, yes, and then that.

Speaker 11

Which would be probably the most funny, the most funny.

Speaker 7

Oh yeah, results.

Speaker 11

Yeah, but you know so so because this is he also has a path to the presidency.

Speaker 5

Yeah.

Speaker 7

Yeah, you just have to get two impatriotes.

Speaker 11

Somehow and take it out. This is how Trump can still win. This is the path, guys.

Speaker 7

This unfortunately she's well, I mean here's the thing. Okay, legitimately, if Biden and Harris died in a plane crash tomorrow, I actually think Trump could win the would win the Speaker of the House vote.

Speaker 11

Oh yeah, absolutely, But this is this.

Speaker 7

Is this is how Berdie can still win. This is the path.

Speaker 12

So all right, so so you know we're in this, We're in We're in I don't know, We're just you know, this is all like nuts but like again, we are just we are in the wilderness, like we're in complete chaos lands.

Speaker 7

No no one the US has never been here before. And okay, the other thing we need to mention is, okay, so you know you were saying that there there hasn't like you know, we we need we need to bring back the like pedophiles to be the Speaker of the House. So Speaker of the House, not a pedophile. The guy who removed him as Speaker of the House. He's by Mad Gates probably probably.

Speaker 13

Yeah.

Speaker 7

So here's here's what I can say legally about Matt Gates, the guy who led eight Republicans to join the Democrats in the in the voter no confidence. He is a man best known for being investigated for the Department of Justice for trafficking underaged girls. What I can legally say is that he was suspected by the Justice Department of being a pedophile. There are there are like there were receipts from his like on his phone from like cash app of him sending money to underage girls. So you know,

bad things, bad things happening there. That investigation got killed because the bourgeoisie uh protects its allies. But Comma, we do not Speaker of the House right now, so something I think, I guess we should also mention this. So there's like a there's no Speaker of the House. There's some guy they put in who's like, is not actually an acting Speaker of the House. The only thing he can do effectively is like make sure that there's vote

specifically on there being another Speaker of the House. Yeah, And this has thrown the entire American political system into chaos because with no Speaker of the House, the House of Representatives cannot pass bills. They can't do it, They

cannot pass any bills at all. And because of the way that the American system was designed, not having this one person shuts down the entire effectively shut it shuts down the entire legislative branch, right because you can't get anything passed in the Senate without also getting it ratified in the House. And this has just shut down effectively, like most of the American government outside of the like,

you know. I mean, so the executive branches and all of the departments stuff are self functioning, but there is no legislative branch right now, effectively, is what has happened, right I think maybe subcommittee meetings are still running, but they can't pass any bills, and this is both a blessing and a curse. Normally, this I think would just

be a curse. I don't know. Maybe right now this is probably the best possible time this could have happened, because the consequence of this has been the US has been unable to follow through on its most sort of just rapidly genocidal impulses about Palestine because again, the House literally cannot pass any bills until they figure this shit out.

So we haven't been able to send money to it Laziel, we haven't been able to send like God forbid, like we haven't been able to plenty troops, which I don't know if they I don't know if there was actually the political desire to do that anyways, But you know, the fact, the fact that there was no speaker in the immediate wake of the stuff that's been happening in Palestine means that you know, they've they've been restrained from just like glassing the entire Middle East, which is which

is good. The downside is that again, we have until November seventeenth to pass a funding bill to avert the government shutdown. And not only is there like no progress on a deal about that bill, like the American legislature is currently incapable of passing any bill, much less the spending bill. So things are going great in the American political system. And okay, so we should we should ask the question why is this happening? And there are both

sort of short and long answers to this question. Both of them effectively have the same route, which is that the Republican Party is a coalition. It's one that usually has pretty broadly compatible politics, but it is a coalition between different sectors of capital. So think, for example, you know, you have your different right wing like tech mogul billionaires,

right like Elon Musk or like Peter Thiel. But these people align on a lot of stuff, but they don't necessarily have the same interests as like a weapons manufacturer or like coke industries, or I mean just like you know, like one of the big sort of tensions, for example, is that the Republican Party has a lot of backing

among the financial sector. Uh, the financial sector has very little interest in conflict with China because they have an enormous amount of capital like tied up in Chinese firms.

There are a lot of other like people who have a lot of like like even this is this is a thing between Elon Musk and Peter Teel right or like Musk is kind of more pro China than like the average like Republican tech billionaire because he has a bunch of contracts in a giant factory in China and so so okay, so this is this is a coalition

between different segments of capital who disagree. This is also a coalition between different like right wing social movements who are also you know, a very powerful part of the party. You have evangelical stuff. But I mean, you know, the consequence of this, and the consequence of the sort of shift right of American politics has been you now have this party where there are like libertarians alongside neocons, you have more moderate conservatives, and you have basic people who

are effectively neo Nazis. And the fact that the coalition is like this now, the fact that it is genuinely more so than it's been in a long time, a very broad and diverse coalition. This has made the House

of Representatives effectively unmanageable. Okay, and this has been a real issue in the Republican Party for a while now, partially because you know, and this is this is why we're getting the government shutdown stuff, like a big part of Republican strategy for the last decade, basically since Obama took office, has just been shutting down the government and doing art obstructionism, so you know, nothing can get done at waitgre have you have you been Do you remember

the last government shut down?

Speaker 12

Yeah?

Speaker 11

Yeah, yeah, it was only like two years ago. Yeah, it feels like maybe maybe it was longer. It feels like it was pretty recent. There was no it was it was in twenty eighteen. I think it was like, yeah, I see, because in my brain we're still in twenty twenty.

Speaker 7

Oh yeah, they were actually twenty So what I.

Speaker 11

Said when I say two years ago, what I mean is twenty eighteen.

Speaker 7

Yeah, I mean, and it's that one was funny because that was a that was a Republican president. Yeah, yeah, which is very funny. But yeah, but you know, but back when Obama was in office, like this just happened all the fucking time, Like every other week. There was like a threat of a government every single time a bill liken, a funding bill was going to pass Congress, like I had a bunch of family members get furloughed well at one point, because the government actually did shut

down for a long time. But there's a real problem with this, which is that this political strategy encourages, effectively the it encourages creating chaos, right, and this is something that Trump has been very good at sort of exploiting. But it also means that there's now this like qudra of politicos who've come up who are like incredibly right wing and effectively the only thing they know how to do is obstructing anything from functioning. And this is what

McCarthy ran into. He ran into Gates and his sort of like band of Mary I don't know, I was gonna call him a band of Mary weirdos, but that's way too complimentary. His band of like absolute fanatics. And the real issue here is that, Okay, so there's currently two vacant seats in the House, so this means right now, to win a vote in the full House. To become a Speaker of the House, you need two hundred and

seventeen votes. Sorry, hold on, there's new shit happening, like right now, McCarthy thinks that Jim Jordan has two hundred and seventeen votes. I don't know if I believe him. I don't know. Well, I'll just explain what's happening now and then we'll put that at the end.

Speaker 11

As like breaking news. Inswer that at the end, Daniel, thank you? Or keep it in right now is a funny bit, yes, because this situation is still is still developing as of time of recording.

Speaker 7

So yeah, like as yes, it's the only way should mention. You know, this process is complicated enough that like, yeah, as we are recording it, stuff is changing rapidly, like stuff has been. News is coming in.

Speaker 3

So what's been.

Speaker 7

Making it hard is that in order to get two undred and seventeen votes, right, the Republican majority is only they only have two hundred and twenty one votes. So if you want to become Speaker of the House, you can only lose four total votes, and this means you have to win both the Moderates and Matt Gates's coalition of fanatics. And this is effectively impossible. It is, it

is unbelievably difficult. McCarthy was able to do this because he pulled votes from the far right by like promising things like impeaching Biden and stuff like that, and also sort of cutting cutting his own deals with people like Marjorie Taylor Green who like and is And this is the other thing about about this impiacement vote is that it's not actually a purely ideological lines like far right versus moderate vote, because.

Speaker 11

No, like he he even split the more extreme contention of the Republican Party in Congress. It's it's it's really bizarre. Well, it's not bizarre because you can like understand it, but it is certainly interesting where where the dividing lines and ended up being for a lot of the people that we consider mostly being on the same side right because usually people imagine like Matt Gates and Marchie Taylor Green usually in the same kind of far right voting block.

And to see like divisions over over this vote is certainly an interesting aspect of you know, possible fractures within the even the extreme contingent of the Republican Party.

Speaker 7

Yeah, and this and this has been a really interesting dynamic, but it also makes it just like impossible, Like you have to in order to do this, you have to somehow appease the moderates and gates and like you're dealing with multiple different right wing fringe factions. Yeah, and then and this is you know what we talk you more

about the Freedom Caucus in a little bit. But you have to, like you're at a point where you're trying to appease so many different groups of people who all have kind of competing agendas, who also just have like personal beef with each other. And as of right now time of recording, which is two pm Pacific time on Friday, no one has been able to actually pull together this vote. We're gonna take an ad break, and then we're.

Speaker 11

Gonna do you know who else actually needs to be appeased by these same people?

Speaker 7

Is is it the products and services? It is podcast?

Speaker 11

Ronald Reagan Coin looks down upon Congress every single time that guy hits that little hammer, And Ronald Reagan Coin also looks down upon all of you. I think I think I have a good idea where to put my new uh my new four to oh one k investment in I'm going to do all all gold coin, move all that over to gold coin. It's stable, it's gonna be worth it, it holds value, and that is that is definitely my plan.

Speaker 7

Oh we're back.

Speaker 11

Hello everybody. Sorry, did didn't did not realize you were already back so soon. I was just talking with me about expanding my investment portfolio. Anyway, as you were saying, so, what.

Speaker 7

Has happened after that? The answer is an absolute clown show. I mean, this is this is one of the most like James.

Speaker 11

Lets let's not disparage clowns, shall we.

Speaker 7

That's true. This is unfair to me.

Speaker 11

This is we could have clowns in the audio, We could have closeted clowns in this phone call.

Speaker 7

That's true. That's true. Okay, I I yes, I've been being unfair to clowns by comparing them to the Republican Party. This has been this has been one of the most pathetic displays of politics I've ever seen. And I have followed the political trajectory of Israeli labor like this is. This has it's been truly awful. So all right, So,

so McCarthy is ousted. The problem immediately is that no one has any where close to enough votes to replace him, like like and when I say no, what like McCarthy McCarthy went down by he lost eight votes from the Republicans.

Speaker 11

Yeah, yeah, No one else is within like sixty, right, Like what like this wasn't just a power move for Gates then? Like he he was like was was he looking to.

Speaker 7

Take the spot or no? No, get the Gate. There's Gates has absolutely no shot of winning. He would get like ten votes maybe, like basically nothing. What he was trying to and this is this is kind of Gates is in this kind of obstructionism thing where he's trying. The thing he's trying to do basically is he's trying to like he's trying to set up himself as a political flank of like the moost Republicans, Republicans and everyone

else are these like sellouts to work with the Democrats. Yeah, and he's he's also been trying so so Gates's preferred candidate is a guy named Jim Jordan. Jim Jordan is the found he was the founding head of the powerful far right Freedom Caucus, and he's a really he's a real piece of work. He's mad.

Speaker 11

I feel like Jimmy Jordan has been a recurring character on this show. Yea, sometimes he's not a very n he sucks, like she's not quite like a full on neo Nazi in the way.

Speaker 7

Like yeah, but like he's not good. He's he's he's from like the far right. He's what I guess you would call the like the more acceptable far right of the Republican Party. Like he's from the Freedom Caucus, like is is a like a very right wing organization even within the Republican Party. But they're not seen as like weird fringe fanatics in the way, at the.

Speaker 11

Very least, they will hold the door open towards people that are even like like even way way more extreme.

Speaker 10

Yeah.

Speaker 11

Yeah, and that's been he's been serving in Congress since like twenty and seven.

Speaker 7

Yeah, he's a very he's a very high He's.

Speaker 3

One of the guys.

Speaker 7

He's he's been like the architect of a lot of well not the architect. He's been one of the figures behind a lot of the sort of like government shutdown stuff. He's been. He's he's been one of the guys who's kind of like I don't know, like he didn't he cause he didn't come in on the tea party wave. He came in before that. But he's been he's been a guy who's been pushing that kind of sort of

like that kind of very very rote with politics. His his original opponent was Steve Scalise, who is a kind of semi McCarthy ally kind of and you will see him described as being more moderate than than Jim Jordan, and that is maybe kind of true in the sense that like he's being back in the fact that like like Jim Jordan is being backed by like Marjorie Terry Green, Matt Gates and like Donald Trump. This is after Trump gave up his bid to like become speak of house himself.

Speaker 11

He backs, which would have been the funniest dot com Yeah.

Speaker 7

Would have been very funny. But however, we don't. We don't live in the funniest off possible timeline set. We live in the worst one.

Speaker 9

Yeah.

Speaker 7

Yeah, So that didn't happen. So the problem is the other guy is is again this is Steve Scalise, and again he's called a moderate. Scalise also wants there There is a report of him calling himself and I quote David Duke without the baggage and in in the early two thousands, he spoke at a David at a rally for a group founded by David Duke. Mm hmm, what.

Speaker 11

Without the baggage? What is left of David Duke? Like, how what is that?

Speaker 7

What does actually mean? Like we should I guess we should have mentioned so David Duke if people don't remember David Duke was the Grand Wizard. Yes, yeah, so what he says David Duke without the baggage, What he means is that he he has David Duke's politics, but he doesn't have the immediate what the fuck association you get when you mentioned the head of the fucking KKK that that that's what he was going for. Right, So this is not a good guy he's being presented as.

Speaker 3

And again this.

Speaker 7

Is what passes for like a moderate I mean, he's kind of in the modern the part, but like, this is what passes for a fucking moderate Republican in twenty in twenty twenty three, right, Like these people have always sucked, They've always fucking been like this, and you know the problem, Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's it's it's a real issue that again, like this guy who is like speaking at like it should like in any even remotely noma political system, having

given a speech at a rally for an organization ran by David Duke would immediately be disqualifying. But you know, no, like you can just do that. You can do that and you get to be a moderate in twenty twenty three. But the problem with the problem Scalisee has is that

Sclezi's problem isn't that again like clan bullshit. It's the fact that the way that votes for the Speaker of the House work is that So there's an internal blind vote inside of the inside of the Republican Party where each each each representative gets to anonymously vote like each a problem representative gets to a anonymously vote for their

preferred candidates. So Jim Jordan like kind of narrowly loses out to Scalise in the first route in the first vote, so he loses one hundred and thirteen to ninety nine, and so Scalise comes out as the guy who's the nominee for the Republicans.

Speaker 5

Right.

Speaker 7

Problem is, Scalise lasts one day as that guy. Because the problem is to actually become speaker, you need to win a vote on the House floor and the vote on the House floor with everyone in the House, including the Democrats. That's where he needs to win two hundred seventeen votes. He did not have it. He so incredibly did not have it. That again, within a day of him winning this vote, he is out. So Scalise is

now out of the race. What has been so the developments Literally as we are recording this, Jim Jordan has won a vote to become like the next he's the next person to vote because he was running against just

a fucking clown. Sorry I'm being offensive to clowns. He's just like a nobody, like just like some dipshit Republicans like picked off off the street, right, like this is where we're at, like that there's no one like if if Jim, if Jim Jordan can't do this, like there's like I don't know, like you would like bring McCarthy back, Like there's nothing he like Jordan. Jim Jordan's like the last even semi serious political figure of the Republican Party

who could even conceivably do this. So Jim Jordan has won the vote inside the Republican Party. However, come and and also the other important thing that happened literally as we were recording, is that he's been he's been endorsed by McCarthy now, which is kind of a big deal. McCarthy has said publicly that he thinks that Jim Jordan has the votes. I don't believe him, and I don't believe him because immediately after he said that, it came out that Jim Jordan is sixty vote short on the

floor of the House, sixty six zero. He is screwed. There's no way, like he has to get through sixty sixty votes and there's no way. I I don't see a path for him to do this, even even with McCarthy's support, Like, I don't, I don't think it's a

way for him to do this. As a time of recording, the thing that has happened is that the Republicans have all gone home because they get out at five, and he's going to try to spend the weekends like building up support, trying to build up enough votes in the House to like win speakership.

Speaker 11

But yeah, this has not seen where it seems like it's it seems like a pretty uh pretty chance.

Speaker 7

It's it's possible that like on like Monday or Tuesday or something when they're like, when this comes out, I'll be eating crow and I'll have to record like it that's true because of his date.

Speaker 11

But yes, because this does come out after the weekend. So yeah, but we will, I.

Speaker 7

Know buy this. I I absolutely just do not buy that Jim Jordan has enough votes. This is this is this is this is this is my analysis. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but guessing at sixty votes and like, there's no way, there's no way. So this is this is this is a fact. This is the current state of Congress right now, Like we don't we don't have a legislave branch. Everything, everything is in chaos. Nothing but down. Two more to go. We're almost there, fellas. Yeah, well

the executives. If we cannot come the executive. If we can not go the executive, the judiciary will fall by itself. Yeah.

Speaker 11

So that's that is certainly certainly exciting. There's always always good things to look forward to.

Speaker 7

Yeah, but you know, I think that I think a closing note on this is that the fact that the US effectively can't do anything right now while it's in the middle of a pretty serious like a couple of longline one is in the middle of like several very very serious international political crises and wars. Is has I don't know, it's been the thing right now that has been restraining the US from just like really going all out and trying to get it when of Palestine killed.

So I guess there's that, But I don't know. Our government is a joke, yeah, and like and I guess I guess. The last thing I want to say is I want to invite all of you, everyone is listening to this, to look at these absolute numbskulls, Like, look at what they're doing right now. They can't even pick the one guy who is necessary for the entire legislative branch to function. And I want you to ask yourself,

could we do this? Could like any of you and like your neighbors and your friends, run a political system better than this, because I bet the answer is yes.

Speaker 11

As mass bombing continues across Gaza, two point three million Palestinians remain trapped in the strip as the Israeli military conducts a total blockade. Israel has cut off water, electricity, and fuel while intentionally restricting humanitarian aid from being sent into Gaza. This is it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. On October seventh, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu gave a

speech addressing Palestinians inside Gaza. A part of the official English translation of the speech reads, quote, all of the places which Hamas is deployed, hiding and operating in that to wicked city, we will turn them into rubble. I say to the residents of Gaza, leave now, because we will operate forcefully everywhere.

Speaker 7

Unquote.

Speaker 11

The next sentence in the speech was left untranslated, but it roughly read quote, we will target each and every corner of the strip. According to the UN, by last Thursday October twelfth, about four hundred and twenty three thousand people had been displaced from their homes by Israeli air strikes.

That's about twenty five percent of the Palestinian population. Many sought refuge in crowded United Nations shelters set up in schools, but even those shelters and hospitals were attacked by air Last Friday, October thirteenth, Israel issued a military order for all citizens in northern Gaza, including Gaza City, to evacuate their homes within a twenty four hour period in apparent preparation of a major ground assault on the besieged enclave.

Over one million Palestinians live in this area. It's almost half the population of Gaza. In between bombings, Israeli military aircraft dropped thousands of leaflets into Gaza City advising civilians to immediately leave their homes and the un shelters, but not to actually try and leave Gaza, as the leaflet warned that if anyone approached the Israel Gaza security wall, they would quote expose themselves to death unquote. Israel laid out just a few roads that it was supposed to

be quote unquote safe to travel southbound. Thousands of people in a northern Gaza began to flee towards the strip's southern half on Friday morning, but as they were following Israel's orders, civilian convoys transporting Palestinian families out of Gaza City were bombed by the Israeli military at three different

points along the evacuation route. At least seventy people were killed, with hundreds more injured by the Israeli airstrikes as they were trying to follow Israel's impossible order to evacuate everyone from their homes in just twenty four hours between Netanyahu's speech and the evacuation order of northern Gaza. This leaves people questioning where exactly are these people supposed to go in Gaza told the Associated Press quote, we can't flee

because anywhere you go, you are bombed. Unquote. Gaza isn't that big. It's only twenty five miles long, and it's completely surrounded by Israel and the Mediterranean Sea save for a small section on the southern tip, which borders Egypt with Israel, sealing off access to Gaza. The only way in or out is the Rafa Border Crossing, located at the southern end of the strip, bordering Egypt's Sinai Peninsula.

The Rafa Crossing is a critical passage for humanitarian aid and serves as a vital gateway between Gaza and the outside world. One of the very first targets of Israeli bombing this month was the Rafa Border crossing between Gaza and Egypt. It was targeted by three air raids in a twenty four hour period, severely damaging the crossing, preventing it from operating and resulting in fatalities. There's video and audio of the bombings where you hear hundreds of people

make a singular scream. It's pretty gruesome. With Israel undergoing a quote unquote complete siege of Gaza, this crossing was the only way to send humanitarian supplies into the Strip and to let willing refugees flee the assault. The Egyptian Foreign Minister has said that Israel has yet to allow the reopening of the crossing. Egypt is expected to assist in delivering humanitarian aid to Palestinians and the enclave, but it has rejected proposals to accept fleeing Palestinians into its borders.

Both Egypt and Israel operate a blockade of Gaza to strictly control the passage of people and supplies going in and out of the Strip. There's no freedom of movement to enter or leave Gaza. Even when there's not a

declared war. One can't simply leave Gaza. There is no Gaza airport, at least not since two US and two Historically, the Rafa border crossing into the Egyptian Peninsula was only open to the public very sporadically, and often for very narrowly defined categories such as medical patients, religious pilgrims, foreign residents, or residents of Gaza with foreign visas or passports. But I don't have to tell you how hard it is

to leave Gaza even when there's not a war. Because late last year, we interviewed two Palestinians for a still upcoming episode that's being worked on. During the interview, they touched on their own experiences escaping Gaza. So we're going to play some of that interview for this episode, and I'll jump in occasionally to add some context. So here is Ahmed Matar and Abdullah al Casabre, athletes from a PK Gaza, one of the most recognized parker teams in the world.

Speaker 9

My name is Ahmad mat I'm twenty six years old. I'm from Gaza, Palestine, and I do parkour. I live at the moment tenniswit in because I'm open. Within six years ago after I got invited for the Eraword Challenge, it's a partcour competition that was organized in Sweden and Helsingburg. And yeah, since that time, I just live in Sweden because I just did not want to go back for so many reasons that we can just talk about it later in this episode.

Speaker 7

Hey, guys.

Speaker 5

I'm I'm a taddler.

Speaker 13

I'm twining, five years old and also in Barkour Athleta and I'm also right now in Italy. I got a chance to travel to Italy because I part debated in.

Speaker 2

A in a in a movie or in.

Speaker 13

A film which is the directory is in man village Girosa. He's an Italian movie. It's called more jumb But my friend he was the main character. I was one of the characters in the filma. So we got a chance to to participate in a festival in si And it wasn't really easy. It was really hard to do it because because you know, having visa Ahma as dad, it's we get a visa as a Palestinian, and especially from

gether city is something really really hard. And even though it's about having the business about it, traveling outside Gaza something else. This is also other completely different story. But we could manage that, and I've been here in Italy. I came to participate in Sishida. First of all, me and my friend we managed to get shing a visa and it was just for five days. And now I'm here in Italy for almost eleven months. In the other city.

You when you were there, it is not you don't really feel free as free, you know, because you're surrounded all the time by so many obstacutes, you know, which is which is really crazy and it drives even though because we were really kids and we didn't have a really good childhood somehow.

Speaker 9

Yeah, I remember since were we were kids, we were seeing that tanks or what is it called, Yeah, the tanks that bombs and we were seeing it in front of the street and we were hearing bombs and shootings.

And that was before two thousand and five. That was like since I was four years I could remember all of that moments where the tanks are crossing our road and we were seeing that I attacks happening between people together, and bombs and flights and drones and and that's something that for sure affects us as a kid, that we we get the far whenever we see some bombs and just we want to hide from the bombs and we

want to be close to the family. For me, all of these things that happened around me affected me that I wanted to be that guy who would like to enjoy life. In the same time, Gaza was a place that we had the situation, but we are the psychologically or how is it called, Like when you are affected by the situation where you know that you are you can be dead at a moment, or it can get a bump close to you any moment, or someone close to you who die.

Speaker 13

I mean kids the most important for the kids just there safety and we didn't have safety. The safety is what kids really want, you know all the time. I mean, when you're a kid, you just need your mom or your dad next to you because you really feel this kind of safety. But when we were kids, we couldn't have this kind of feeling because even our parents they were not really sure what might happen to us or to them, so how they will protect us. So it's

not really easy for anyone to protect the others. You know, no one able to you know, to do that. That's something affected us for sure, like because we we we we grown up in such things like that. Maybe for me an hour, if you were talking about this is maybe something usual, which is something normal, because I really

good used to it somehow, which is not normal. I mean it should have been normal for anyone, but for us, you know, we could it kind of normal because it's kind of we used to and now when I really because before I was really kids, so I didn't know what but it's really going on. I was really terrified and I was really scared, and I didn't know what

is really going to happen. But now when I'm kind of an adult and I know what is really going on and I see the kids when when because for example, the last four especially when I'm even outside, guess that it's completely completely different, you know, because when you're inside Gaza with your family and your friends top apply, it's

really different. But now when I can see how the kids they are screaming, how the kids they they they have this kind of feeling, you know that you know, they are really ter fired with the pomps because they are sneaks to them. So I can really myself and I just go through back, you know, the.

Speaker 3

Memory of the stories.

Speaker 13

That really happened via the memories, a lot of memories before about that it was really crazy.

Speaker 11

We're going to go on a quick ad break, but when we get back, Ahmed will talk about his long experience trying to leave Gaza. When Ahmed was younger, he began to share videos online of his athletic skills, slowly gaining notoriety around the world for his pretty impressive parker ability. Soon both himself and Pik Gaza were being invited around the world to perform a parker or to enter into

parker competitions. P k Gaza was invited to the Arabian TV show Arabs Got Talent, but they were unable to go on the program due to difficulties traveling outside Gaza. During this time period, the Rafa border crossing into Egypt was only open around six times a year and for

only a few days. To catch a flight out of Egypt, you need to have all of your proper paperwork, tickets, and a valid visa which lines up perfectly for when the Rafa border crossing happens to be open, and you have to also hope that you're not in the back of the line to get through the border crossing because they only let a certain number of people through each day.

Ahmed was invited to participate in the Red Bull Parker Challenge in China and even successfully got a visa to travel, but wasn't able to leave Gaza because the Rafa border crossing was closed during the timeframe when the visa was valid.

The US based World Free Running and Parker Federation tried to help Ahmed travel to the United States to participate in the wfpf's twenty sixteen competition in Las Vegas, but Ahmed was unable to get an American travel visa due to long wait times to use the Northern border crossing into Jerusalem, and even if you did manage to get into Israel, it was quite difficult to receive a US

travel visa as applicants were frequently denied. A park Ori Gym in Italy frequently invited Ahmed to participate in their summer and winter events, but the Italian embassy denied requests for a travel visa three times. In late twenty sixteen, Ahmed got invited to the Air Whip Parkour Challenge in Sweden, and with the help of some Swedish friends, he was

able to secure a travel visa in just two weeks. Unfortunately, when Ahmed got the visa, the Rafa crossing was closed, but by pure luck, just one day later it was announced that the crossing would be reopening. When he went to the crossing, he learned that there were thirty thousand people in line in front of him. With the crossing only set to be opened briefly and the temporary visa

set to expire, it was not looking great. After a very challenging series of events that Ahmed is about to explain, he was able to get to Sweden and just last year he started in a play about his own life and his journey traveling from Gaza to Sweden.

Speaker 6

Tell us a little bit about this. This is going to be a play about your life that they're doing in Sweden.

Speaker 9

So we have had the premiere for the play in ninth of May. So we have been doing the show for a while now, like we have had eight performances at the moment, and the play is about me with my family and then my friends from Peking Gaza. I also talks about the journey from Gaza to Sweden, which

was the biggest part of the play. That yeah, talking exactly about how it is to face the visa embassy, Egyptian control, Egyptian security when we get out of Gaza, that they have to also a Palestinian side that they have to interview. Was every like I have if I

have the visa. Let's say I got the visa after some tries, then I have to apply for the trouble which I have to stand in the queue behind all of that people who already applied before me, which is imagine nine thirty one thousand, Mike, you number is thirty thousand. Then I have to wait. And okay, let's say I got in front of all of that people and today I am here in the Palestinian side. Then this Palestinian side, then RAPA orders have to interview me and check all

why do I need to travel? Show me your documents if I have any mistaken my documents, and I go back to Gaza. Even if all my documents, I have the vision and everything. And then if you don't want me to travel, then I have to stay in Gaza. Okay, let's say I did best the Palestinian side. I am in the Egyptian security side, and there one time the Egyptian security sent me back to Gaza after waiting. I have the visa and I was like, no, what are you going to do? I'm going to do parkour. I

have a poor competition. Now what is parkour?

Speaker 5

Jump?

Speaker 9

Oh, then you go jump back in Gaza.

Speaker 7

I have to go back, and my.

Speaker 9

Family did not expect I would be backing as because I was at home around five am in the morning, and that was a whole day, like waiting to get to the Egyptian side, and then from there he send me back and yeah, and the end, I mean, without the help I could, I would not have travel because thirty thousand people in front of me. I have the Q number, but I am behind them, and I have the visa that will expire in two days. Like let's say that it starts in two days and it will

expire in twenty days. And if I don't travel in this twenty days, my visa will expire, and then I cannot travel with him. And the only thing I had to do was like going to the crossing the first day with my father. He went with me and we just stand there in front of the crossing. It's you know, there is a control, there is a list with names that you cannot really cross if you don't get any help. So I go there and then we just waited around

six hours, me and my father. Then the sunset came and good dark, and then he was like, I cannot do anything. We have to go back, and then we went back home. The day after my fight, tell my father list can we go, I have to travel, I have the visa. I just will explore. And then he was like, well, I cannot do anything. He don't know what he will do, my father. So I told him, okay, I will go for the guy. We have a guy close to us, like let's say my neighbor, but he's

a far neighbor. And he was the manager of the crossings between us, like managing of coordinating the visas or like the last between US and Egypt. So he can really do whatever he wants. He can enter Egypt whenever he wants. He's a very friend between Egyptians. So he's the manager of the christ he's the boss. So I go to him and I wait him outside his car. Like so, I was close to his car waiting him to get out of his home. I know he goes

to his work around eight in the morning. Then I wake up at seven in the morning and I go there waiting him to come to his car. I see his car. Then I was really happy that he did not leave to his work, and I knew that he's still there and I was waiting waiting, and then he came and then I show him my visa and I really have to travel the competition and they have to join this competition. And then he was like, okay, but do you have the Q number? Yes, but I am

the last in the list. Okay, but how will we do? I cannot tell you, but I have already. I told him I have already been into Egypt before, but the Egyptian security sent me back to Gaza and he told me, do you have the registration of that the time you travel? And I told him yes, and did have that time and it was okay, follow me to the crossing. I told him, yeah, but I can I go with you in your car so you don't forget me when you go there. Because he's very like beoble just run after

him and a crossing mariandn there. I had to tell me I want to go with you, and he said yes, okay, you can come with me. And then he told me, but you cannot stop. I told him, can I stop her and say goodbye to my family first? Because they did not know that I will travel. I just took a very small bag with me in case I really had like a tack bag with me and he said yeah, but you cannot stop. I have to go now. And

then I was okay. I called my mom, Mom, he's going to help me, and but I cannot stop say goodbye. And then yeah, I went to the crossing and he put me into like a viv that I had to go like in a very special past that was just five people in it. And I was very like respected by the control there and there was like I got

all the way today to Egypt. And in Egypt, I really met the same guy that he also asked me about parkour and he was like, oh you And then my friend, the guy, the manager of the crossing told me I show him what parkour is. I really had to go slept for him. I did a workster in that room where he the control chick and I was oh wow, so cool. Okay, here is the stamp enter to Egypt. But I had to go into that airport.

He did not know. You know, the Egyptian don't understand the visa, like if if it's in the visa, it says that it's gonna be valid in this day, if it's valid in this like imagine I get the visa today but it's not valid yet. But the crossing is opened today and tomorrow and the day after I have to travel in these three days, then the crossing will close for another six months, so I had to travel in them days otherwise I will lose my visa. So

my visa was not valid at that time. I traveled from Kasas, so he thought that it's valid.

Speaker 3

So he was, oh, go to.

Speaker 9

The airport now and travel from there. He thought that I can travel to Europe directly, but if my visa is not valid, Europe would not let me in. So I had to stay in the airport that time that my visa was not valid, which was five days, and then and I traveled, but I had to wait in the airport because he did not understand my visa.

Speaker 11

No one should have to do a Webster front flip to cross a border. Because there was still one week left until the visa became a valid, Egyptian security sent Ahmed straight to the airport to wait for the week. While in limbo at the airport, the Egyptian authorities locked him in a small room without his phone or his belongings until the visa became valid. After many harsh difficulties and compounding inconveniences, Ahmed boarded his plane for Europe. Ahmed

has built a life for himself in Sweden. He's been teaching parkour classes there for years now. In fact, that's how the play came about. The mother of one of his students is a theater director and she became interested in his story. By his account, life is much better for him now, but he still is not free to see his own family or to go back to his original home. Getting into Gaza is almost as hard as getting out of Gaza.

Speaker 6

And hopefully you guys can get back into your family's too, because I know that must be read difficult, being separated and not being able to get back.

Speaker 9

Yeah, it's been six years almost.

Speaker 6

Jesus man.

Speaker 14

Yeah, that's really hard, you know.

Speaker 9

Dramaton the Theater. I've invited my brother and luckily he got the visa from first time. He got help from the same guy and that helped me and asked him and he put him into a special vest. He traveled from Gaza with having doing and then now he's here and.

Speaker 6

Oh wow, he didn't have to be a backflip in the visa.

Speaker 9

I did not, because he's an artist and he had the visa and everything. So he got the visa because in dramat and the Theater Center invited him to be a part of the show with his cool piece of fabric that he drove. True. Yeah, Alla, the same way with the travel and you know, if you don't have someone to help you, you would not travel.

Speaker 6

Yeah, it shouldn't be that way.

Speaker 9

Abdulla had to get it also help because his visa also was also one week and one week and he had to prove that week and he's named the last of the place.

Speaker 11

Unfortunately, Abdullah had some internet issues and some of the audio isn't usable. But he similarly only made it out of Gaza because he had a friend who had a contact at the Italian consulate. When Abdullah tried to apply for the visa, the office wasn't taking any more applications, but this friend was able to explain Abdullah's situation to the consulate and they decided to give him a travel visa.

Abdullah also had to travel through Egypt and was forced to stay in a small present cell for three days without food or water. Once he got to the Cairo airport, the German airline he was booked on refused to accept his paperwork because they didn't want the responsibility of stamping his passport with the alternative of just going back to Gaza. Abdullah was able to find a manager of sorts and explain his situation with the travel visa and needing to

go to this film premiere or this Parkhorp thing. You know, it's not the easiest thing to explain, not everyone knows what parkhor is, but the manager was sympathetic, and then, just like what happened with Abed, they requested a Parkourt demonstration to see if this guy was actually telling the truth.

So the already exhausted Abdullah did a backflip in the airport as he was recovering from the COVID vaccine, and then the manager, seemingly satisfied, transferred him from this German airline to an Egyptian airline and he was able to make it to Italy and escape the prison of Gaza.

Speaker 13

When you're anyone who's a prison, the only thing that he thinks about, I mean, when you're a prisoner for the whole life, I mean, the only thing they think about is just how to escape. No, I mean that's normally because you just want to be free, because you're a prison.

Speaker 9

I've never been into the prisons, I.

Speaker 7

Mean I've never No, we both say.

Speaker 9

I mean, I've been to the Brazen of Gaza, but not the.

Speaker 13

Real exact That's exactly what I mean. So we both we were in a prison which is open, big prison, and the only way that we were thinking about is help to get out of that. And the only was really possible is just to use per food as an opportunity for us so we can get our freedom. And somehow now you're in Sweden. Im in Italy, we have this scant freedom, but at the same time it's really hard because our family is all friends and everyone. We still connected, not freedom, so it's still connected.

Speaker 9

Like I mean, I was trying to meet my family last in this summer and I applied for the Egyptian visa. Because I still don't have the Swedish passports, I have to apply as a Palestinian to go back or to visit Egypt. So I applied for the Egyptian visa to visit my family because my mother was in Egypt and so there to to attend the marriage of my actem. But she was there in Egypt with my sister and the yeah, I applied for the visa. I never with the visa, so I have to it's like I'm not

free yet. I mean, yeah, I will get the Swedish passport soon. I don't know when, but I'm sure it's not more than six months from now, because I have been applying. I have applied six months ago and it's usually not more than a year to get the decity. And usually it's accepted if you have everything correct in the country, like if you're legal and you pay attacks working, you're studying and another language, I'm good there, Just like I have to wait so in the end I will

be able to meet them. I would not be able to I would not say I will be free to enter Gazza whenever I want, because yeah, to enter gas at the moment I hear from people, it takes like three to four days and you suffer in the way, just like you have to stay in the car these three days and every thousand kilometers one thousand meters to get to stop by a control like a road control that they need to check everything you have, every bag you have take it out in the road and you

have put it back by yourself, and then the car continues another another control, and then in the end you arrive like Gaza and you say this is the worst part of my trouble because because they don't want to do it again, they don't want to get together and suffer the same way again and the same to get out of Gaza. To get out of Gaza. I mean, if I have the Swedish passport, for sure I will have I will have the best trouble from Gaza without worrying about getting a pieza or not. But in the

same time, yeah, I need to wait an aqueue. When well I traveled, When I will be able to travel from Gaza, is it like going to be one month, two months, three months, because it's like thousands of people who want to travel, and it just they allow five hundred people a day and that's maximum. And then I don't allow any more of that people. And then also

they they closed the crossing at any moment. And I remember the time I traveled from Gaza, was the crossing was closed for six months to three six months and it was none it was not open at all, and there was start thirty one thousand people in the front of me in the queue, thirty one thousand, So I imagine like I was the last person in the queue and they have to wait all of these people to travel, and the crossing was open just the three days every

three months. That means like in this three days, it's one thousand, five hundred. When is the rest gonna travel? When will I have to travel? And imagine you have a visa that is valid for like ten days. If you get the visa just for everything in Europe that is just three days, and then you get the visa for ten days, and then if you don't travel in that ten days, your visa get expired, and then you have to apply for a new visa. And then after that you have to wait because if you get refused visa,

you cannot apply directly. You have to wait six three to six months and then you can apply for the new visa. So it's really terrible, Like I don't want to go through all of that process again. And that's why I decide stay in Sweden and work in Sweden and get a Swedish citizenship where I can travel freely without worrying about oh, getting a visa or not. And because till now, because I'm not Swedish, I have to think about getting a visa or not. Will I be

refuse vicea or not? And even Egyptian embassy refuse my visa and they did not even answer me. Call them every day, did I give the visa? When will you give me the visa? I go to their office here in Stockholm. The end, they're like, oh, you have to call us, send us an email, and I call and send the in. Oh, we will call you when you get the visa. But will you call me that if I don't get the visa. No, we will call you

when you get the visa, Okay. And then they said to my mom, I'm not coming to the Egypt.

Speaker 6

Yeah, that sounds rough. And I know for a long time Abdallah was in Ghaza when you were in Sweden, right, and Abdellah was trying to get the visa to travel. Last time we spoke, you hadn't been able to get one. So I'm glad you did. I'm glad you're now a film star.

Speaker 9

You have been applying many times. Yeah, I remember we went together many times. And they also like there is a weird and also invited him and you had also and they got refused visa. And I'm sure he applied befo as to Italy and he applied for England. Yeah, I also applied Italy, I got refused Italian visa around four times, and I got the refused visa from Norway Oslo.

I got an event in two thousand thirteen and USA fight did me like for Las Vegas, and WFTF invited me for an event in Las Vegas that I could not make, and also Germany Hamburg and Hanover invited me. And there was many events that I could not make. In the end, I could make it to airwork. But the first year of the airwork like they invited me twenty fifteen and I applied for the visa, I did not get it. And then the year after twenty sixteen and got the visa because I had the help also

from another private invitation. So I got double invitations that it made it stronger for the consulate and the embassy in jury residence the visa and it was like yeah, it was twenty one days visa and directly when I arrived with and I was like, my friends knew I don't want to go back. So they taught me to the migration office in Helsingborg in Malmo and there I extended my visa for six months first and in that

six months I wanted to work and stay here. So I started to look for a job and I started my own job actually like start to work with hardcore or myself, like making classes that I was teaching in English, and I had one of the students translating to the kids in Swedish, so he was getting three classes. It was tough at that time. I was like it was hard for him also to translate because he was not more than thirteen years old, who was so shy and everything,

and I was forest forrest. You learned the Swedish language because of that, because I wanted to work, and I just started to know hands, head and the food, knee, and it was easy because it was similar to English. And by the time the kids had taught me to speak Swedish at the moment because it was the only way I learned Swedish. It was my way to learn

Swedish was I was the kids all the time. The kids language was the easiest to take, like to back out, because the kids have a simple language that you can really learn it much faster than talking with another that talked really fast and talking very advanced Swedish. I dreamed to travel from Gaza and then I made it. I did travel from Gaza and then you think, Okay, what do I want to make next? And then I I want to work with Packport, and then I started working

with Pakport. I never expected that I would be in the biggest theater stage in Sweden. A then I am here in the biggest theater stage in Sweden. That's just like being able to come and watch my store and watch me perform in Parkour and telling nice story to the It's like I never think thought about it, but just Parkour brought back to me.

Speaker 11

As an extra note, earlier this week, James spoke with Ahmed and Abdullah and as of a few days ago, at least both of their families were okay. Obviously, this is an ongoing situation, but I just wanted to add that in here because that's the most up to date information we have. Ahmed is still in Sweden, is still doing Parker. You can find him at Mataragaza on Instagram or his website Matargaza dot com. That's m A tar

Gaza dot com. Abdullah is still in Italy and is studying to become an English teacher, and just last February, Ahmed and Abdullah were able to see each other in person. For the first time in quite a while. The documentary that Abdullah is in is called One More Jump. It's about very similar questions on whether it's worth it to stay and fight for your country or try to escape and fulfill your dreams. Thank you once again to Abdullah and off Ed for talking with us. I'll link their

social medias in the show notes below. See you on the other side.

Speaker 14

Hello, everybody, Welcome to it could happen here. This is Sharene and I am so happy to be joined by my guest today. I'm so excited to speak to him. I am joined by dB Kashi. He is a pro palsying activist from New York and Israel, and there's just a lot of stuff I want to talk to you about.

Speaker 5

So welcome, pleasure to be here. Great to meet you, Sharen.

Speaker 14

I want to start with just some background for the audience to just like kind of get to know where the perspective you're speaking from. Can you tell me a little bit about your family history and where you grew up and where your parents are from and all of that.

Speaker 5

Sure, my parents were both born in Israel, and they, like Miny Israelis moved to New York City in the eighties and had myself and my two siblings, and as my grandparents were getting older, to whom we were very close, my mom decided to move back to Tel Aviv when I was in two thousand, so right before the Second Intifada. And so when I was thirteen eighth grade, I moved

to Tel Aviv for the first time. And you know, obviously I was very familiar with it, like visit every summer, and you know, grew up in in our grandparents' house, both of whom were Iraqi Jews who immigrated to Israel in the early fifties. And so yeah, so when I moved there in eighth grade, I was completely pretty much a shock in terms of what I was used to in New York. Obviously, I had friends from many different walks of life, many different backgrounds here. I was very

used to that, right. I didn't grew up in you know, a very staunch Jewish community. I had Jewish friends, but I didn't solely have Jewish friends, and so that's what I loved, that's what I embraced. But when I moved to Israel, it was very jarring. You know, I had studied in Hebrew for the first time, and you know, everything that we studied in school was pertaining to the Jewish identity. So every kind of history class, you know, you'd study about the Roman Empire and the Jewish people.

You'd study about, you know, ancient Greece and the Jewish people. And that's okay to learn about Jewish identity, but intertwining it with every aspect of the school curriculum and really thinking about the persecure really kind of hammering home this notion of persecution. Really kind of understanding how you know, And again, I think it's important to understand your history and history in general, but I think that kind of introducing this notion of persecution as a tactic to retraumatize

people that aren't directly experiencing the trauma. Right, So, everyone in the world learns about the Holocaust, but did you know that in Israel, Holocaust Remembrance Day isn't on the same day as the rest of the world's Holocaust Remembrance Day because they want to own their own kind of version of the Holocaust Remembrance Day, right, And so you know, when you think about the Holocaust, you think about other holocausts, other genocides that have happened, and Israel's failure to recognize

those genocides like the Armenian genocide, right, and the fact that you know, many people don't know, but you know, throughout history Israel has armed genocidal forces with Israeli made weapons to you know, support imperialist motives and colonialist powers around the world. So you know, even even now with what's happening in Armenia with the Iserbaijani's right, Israel's on the wrong side of that equation, right, And so it's never been about standing with the side of the oppressed

for Israel. It's never been about, you know, ensuring that what happens when they say never again, actually never again, never happens again to anyone around the world. Right. Think about their policies, the racist policies around refugees, right. I think people don't understand.

Speaker 13

Right.

Speaker 5

I have a very unique perspective because I understand kind of the minds of the colonizers. I can humanize the colonizers. I think there's a dangerous kind of maybe thinking about things from a bit of a different angle than kind

of people are used to. And also bringing it back to the events of the last ten days or eleven days, at this point, I think, you know, I've always kind of looked at and identified with the Palestinian struggle, right, And I've always seen it as a human rights struggle, right, and you know, as such, and as many well regarded activists and thinkers and intellectuals have always talked about the unification of all the struggles of the oppress, and that's

always always arrived at the identification with this struggle for the Palestinian people. I've also felt, you know, by virtue of this se this imposed identity of you know, Israeli, I've always felt directly responsible for the oppression of the Palestinian people, even though I've never done anything myself to champion or perpetuate that oppression. I've always worked against it

from a very very young age. Now, people always ask me, you know, kind of annoying questions like, you know, why do you care so much about the Palestinians when so many people in the world are suffering. And the answer to that question is I care about all suffering. But this is something that the government that supposedly represents me, that the entity that supposedly represents me is directly perpetrating, and frankly, after going to many protests in New York

and in Israel itself. I've realized that this is the most important human rights struggle of our generation for sure, but of modern times because it stands for all of it's essentially the last beacon of direct colonialism. Right. We

all know how kind of neocolonialism works. I mean maybe we do when we don't, but neocolonialism, through you know, different coupitalist structures, right, America has been able to perpetrate neocolonialism without actually having to occupy other people, you know, save for Iraq for almost twenty years, but or fifteen years or whatever, it was a very long time. But Israel is directly and physically occupying on other people, and they have been for the last seventy five years, right

officially for the last seventy five years. And that's been a constant, Right, It's not, hey, you know, here's a country and let's you know fight, let's continue our kind of battle in that way. It's been it's always been. If you're a scholar of Israeli history, of Zionist history, you always you start understanding that the goal was to take over all of Judaea and Samara, right, and that's kind of how the settler government that Netanyahu has in

power has been speaking for years. Right. I'm really upset and really kind of frustrated by the way that the Western media has been portraying what's happening over the last eleven days, because even Israeli media Halitz, which is an Israeli newspaper, which is very prominent one right, isn't portraying it the way that the Western media is portraying it. Right, they're criticizing the Netanyahu. There's so many people in Israel that are scared, right, All the leftists are scared. They're

being persecuted. They're signal groups doxing friends of mine, people literally fighting for human rights, they're doxing them. Islaelfly he's orthodox reporter that's been staunchly pro Palestinian and he's a very prominent member of the press. Angry mob of right winging extremists try to knock down his door the other day and he had to escape from the back door and run away, so they don't, you know, potentially kill him, right, And so these voices are being silenced in Israel. No

one is talking about that. Everyone in the West is beating the drums of war. The media is supporting that. We've seen on the kind of a micro but tragic level, what happened to that six year old kid that was stobbed to death by someone just because of the anti Islamic, anti Palestinian rhetoric that's being perpetrated. And so everyone's kind of losing their shit as all of a sudden, everyone's saying the same thing because everyone is being pushed to

justify this war. But people are starting to wake up, right, The UN's woken up in very very slowly. People are starting to wake up because they're seeing that genocide is actually being committed and so you can't throw your full weight behind genocide. But they're walking it back too slowly. And the people that I'm disappointed by are people that are supposedly smart, spewing complete nonsense rhetoric about two sides. Right.

I struggled, Right, this is important. I struggled. I know people who were killed in the Hamas attack personally and intimately know them. Right. You know my ex girlfriend's best friend was killed, right, She's We've hung out many, many, many times. She was a very sweet, very kind person. We know an activist who was literally because people don't understand. And this is for a lot of the kind of pro Palestinians that that and I completely empathize, and I

understand why people believe what they believe. Believe me, but this is for a lot of the pro Palestinians that you know immediately called all of them settlers, right, And I think it's important to distinguish because if there's ever going to be a path forward in this mess, we have to offer a new rhetoric that deconstructs the nationalist ideologies. Okay, I don't put the Palestinian flag or say free Palestine,

which I do as a nationalist ideology. I say that as a deconstruction of nationalism, as a call to freedom for all, right, though oppressed as well as the oppressor. Right, if you actually read everyone's quoting, everyone's quoting Phenonen, right, everyone's quoting all these revolutionaries, if you actually read the material that they said. Chae Gavari even said the true revolutionary is guided by deep with deep feelings of love

in their heart. And he said this at the risk of sounding absurd, he said that direct quote the people perpetuating in Israel. I can say this from a first hand account. I know very good people that are guided by nationalists and fascist ideologies. However, they've been manipulated, they've been lied to, They've they're fed propaganda twenty four to seven through the news and the sentiment in Israel right now. And I can tell you this, I'm getting messages from

people they think everyone is trying to kill Jews. That's what they believe, That's what they've been told. They think this is armageddon for the Jewish people. That's what the media narrative is in Israel. Okay, in spite of the fact that there are many people that are against what's happening, there are many people that directly blame Netanyahu for this, but they're being scared to believe that they're being going to be attacked on all fronts, and they have to

do everything they can to neutralize the threats. Okay, that is the survival kind of That is a fact. Does that mean that every single person in Israel is a terrible human being, as evil as some people say, No, that is not true at all. Right, And my point is, and what a lot of the revolutionaries said, right. Palo Freer in The Pedagogy of the Oppressed said in the

process of dehumanization, the oppressor dehumanizes himself. Putting that aside, though, I think that you know, for me, I see I know people that died, it was very difficult for me the post in the first two days. I think there were some problematic justifications for the massacre that didn't sit well with me because I'm a humanist. But in the same token, right, I think that I understand the context. I think it behooves us to understand the context.

Speaker 9

Right.

Speaker 5

There's a really famous quote. I forget who said it, but if you started the clock or started looking at kind of the colonization in America from when the Native Americans started shooting the arrows, you think that the Native Americans were the aggressors. Right. If you started looking at, you know, the colonization of Algeria when the Alga, when the local population started rebelling, you think that they were

the aggressive, right. And that's not to say in the same breath that terrible things happen to amazing people there.

Speaker 3

Right.

Speaker 5

What people don't know, and a lot of the Propolst movement doesn't know, is that many of the people living in the area on Gazas are actually activists, like very anti Zionists activists, right that many of the testimonies of the families of the of those activists are saying to stop the genocide, that it's not going to bring back their friends, their family members. Those are the people that were a lot of whom were killed in the attacks

because that's where they live, they work with. You know, organizations at GAZA like acknowledge that, right, understand the complexity saying hey, you guys are all settlers. That's just dumb. It's not factually true. Their grandparents were, their great grandparents were one hundred percent. But now their generations and generations of people, right, just like in their generations and generations of people that descended, Are they to be held accountable

for the actions of their ancestors. Doesn't make any sense. They should be held accountable for actions that they take now, for sure, right, holding your government accountable, you know, thinking about an actual solution to this terrible situation that one hundred percent people should be held accountable for. But to call them settlers as a justification for their deaths is something that I will never do, right, and I don't

think it helps the struggle, right. I think it's important to say and then simultaneously also say, did you guys know that Israel played a very major role in establishing the Commas, Like, don't be stupid, open a history book, see what happened. Right, Understand, don't just be quick to call and quick to say both sides. It's not a both side situation, even though the aggression was terrible, those

are those two things can be true. It's a devastating, tragic event, right, and I know many great people that were killed in it, But in the same breath, we have to remember what caused it.

Speaker 14

Yeah, Context is everything.

Speaker 5

Right, context is everything. Israel funded the Kamas. Bib has direct quotes in Israeli newspapers saying we have to fund the Kamas in order for is Palestinians never to have a state. He directly said that how do you guys ignore these statements. They've been very Bib has been very clear as to what is going to happen and what he's trying to accomplish. And then on top of that, to compound things, the settlers in his government right now

Isamal Bengvil and Smotrich are two settlers. They literally are settlers, like in according to the National Law they're considered settlers, okay, illegal settlers. And there the second and third most powerful people in Israel. Okay, I don't think people understand or know, but those two guys. There's there's a famous rabbi okay, in Jerusalem. He's an extreme missed fundamentalist rabbi, Jewish fundamentalist rabbi. What he's been calling for for a long time, Ka

sadaka is Kahana was right. He was a very fascist rabbi that was basically calling for the extermination of all Arabs. And they're basically they're called kahanistem and that's it's basically what the left in Israel used to call this government. Man tash Khanistem means government of Kahanists, Okay, that is what that's who's running the country. And this rabbi has been calling for in a biblical sense. And we all know when people have an utmost you know, devotion to religion,

that guides them right, not our world. Our world does not guide them. The religious texts and the religious leaders are the ones who tell them what is right and what is wrong right religious in religious fundamentalism, and so what this rabbi has been calling for for years has been a war to end all wars. Okay, that is what he's been telling them. That is what they've been operating under. Okay, their allegiances are to him, not to the Israeli people, like literally to that ideology, and so

they're in the government right now. Over the last year, they've been essentially adding illegal settlements at a rapid rate, emboldening and empowering settlers to commit violence that we haven't seen in many, many years, levels of violence we haven't been seen in many many years, even before this latest aggression I'm talking about over the last twelve months. And the biggest most annoying thing that I hear from Westerners that think they understand, right, they're like, oh, yeah, we

really care about Palestinians. But Hamas has to go two things to that. One, the fact that there are Palestinians on the West Bank and the Palestinians in Gaza doesn't mean they're not the same people. They're Palestinians in forty eight as well. They feel feelings of solidarity because they're all oppressed in different ways. Right, It's solidarity under this got under this Grand Zionist oppression that they experienced and so I think that it's a fallacy that it was

an unprovoked attack. It's a fallacy, right, It's not the case the fact that Aleksa kept getting bombarded by settlers on purpose, on purpose, I don't put it back like they did this to get a provocation. They've been provoking to get the retaliation for Hamas. They've been doing this for years. This is nothing new, right. Every time Ramas shot rockets over the last five years is because Israel was attacking ELECXA right right after Ramadan if you remember,

or doing Ramadan. Sorry, And so every time a barage of rockets came in right after that barrage rockets because Hamas wanted to show that someone is sticking up for them. But I'm just saying you have to understand the context when you're in a blockade, when you're living in a concentration camp. Worse than a concentration camp, frankly. Right, every electricity is controlled, water is controlled, food is controlled. You're not able to leave, right, You're not able to freaking

leave when you want. You're not able to come when you want, not able to. A sixty kilometer strip of land is the most densely populated strip of land in the entire world, depression is the highest, the highest rates of depression. I think the highest rates of child suicide are in Gaza. Okay, when you're living under those conditions, I have no idea how you don't. I have no idea what that would feel like. So how can I

judge anyone any response to that? Right in the same breath, I can also say it's a tragic thing that innocent people died, and they're innocent people, and I think it's important to hold that complexity. Also for the Palestinian cause. I think it's important to not lose sight of our humanity in criticizing the grave injustices that Israel has committed and putting the blame squarely on Israel's shoulders. That Hamas exists.

Speaker 14

Yeah, I think that's something that I keep coming back to is whenever someone is just all about condemning Hamas, which is like, yes, as you mentioned, like innocent people shouldn't have died, But I blame all the violence that's happening in Israel on Israel, like it's not you. Yeah, you can't just start like at a slave revolt as the beginning of history of slavery. It's like, no, actually exactly, they did that for a reason and they had no

other choice. And I mean for Palestinians, I think, like, what's the biggest context that's missing is like they've tried everything. It's not their first choice to kill people that didn't deserve it. It's I think I think that's what's been really annoying with the the people that have chosen to spoke to speak out that have never spoken out before.

They are so narrow in their view of them that it's so damaging because they have so many follow werds, or they're talking about the wrong things, and all of those things like kind of perpetuate a really dangerous environment where like a six year old kid can get stabbed to death. Or I don't know. I agree with everything you said, and I really appreciate you saying all those things before I forget. We're going to take our first break,

so don't go anywhere and we're back. Something you mentioned early on that I have been thinking about and getting getting really angry about is why people are surprised or like unexpecting you to speak out about Palestinians if you are not a Palestinian. I am not a Palestinian. I'm Syrian, and I am extremely vocal about the Palestinian cause and the Palestine. I've always been one hundred percent free Palestine till I die. And it's almost like surprising to people,

like why are you so worked up? Like why aren't you so worked up like that? That's what really gets me is your humanity and care. It shouldn't be contingent on your identity if you actually give a shit. And I think that's what I really want to like relate to people, is this is not the Palestinian's struggle solely for themselves, Like this is a struggle for all. Like if this genocide obliterates the Palestinian people, that's on humanity shoulders.

That's not like that that is so indicative of how depraved humans have become. It's just so upsetting. It's just a complete obliteration. There has been videos of settlers saying they want to flatten the whole thing, make it a parking lot. I mean, I don't even have to tell you what like actual media and like politicians have been

saying because it's like atrocious. But I think that's what I want to relate to people, is like if you're not, if you don't care, examine that, because that is troubling to me, if you don't care about actual genocide. And maybe that word has been used too much to like make people give a shit, but it really makes me people's humanity when they are able to kind of just like shrug it off and continue about their day.

Speaker 5

I've been practicing being hopeful. I think it's really important, especially in times like these, to be hopeful because without hope, and it sounds cheesy, but it's true, we're not empowered, right, We're not able to act. And I think what's exciting, what's I guess heartening to me is actually the people's response to what's happening. Yes, there are many influencers and celebrities that posted the wrong thing, I'm also seeing many that posted the right thing. I'm also seeing many people

that I'm surprised by. I'm seeing many people that I wasn't surprised by posting the wrong thing, frankly, But I'm also seeing many people white people, you know, black people, right like, people of all kinds that are disconnected, you know, from an identity perspective to the Palestinian people doing so much showing up. I went to the I was. I saw images from the protest in uh the other day and there, and I'm not talking about the Jewish protest,

which was amazing, right. What JVP did with if not now in front of truck Schumer's house was incredibly right. That's that's solidarity. That's that's that's real, right, That's that's that's that's humanity, right, that's what humanity should be. That's real solidarity. I'm talking about the protests though, that that was Palestinian lad in the midtown, and I saw tons of Jews there, m hm. And I'm not talking about the stmar Anti Zionist, you know Hasidic Jews, those are great, right,

and they're they're helpful. I'm talking about like regular regular ass Jews, right, like me, Right, people like not even wearing yamakas, like people with you know, small yamlicas that aren't like you know, Hasidic or anything, holding up signs to help liberate the Palestinian people. In spite of the Hamas, in spite of everything that happened, they showed up. They were not scared. A Pastinian flag doesn't scare them, right,

I shouldn't it shouldn't. But again, I want to be I want to I want to maintain my my I

guess I want to maintain the view of objectivity. I think again, you know, Devil's advocate, I think when when, And again this is not not me blaming, right, it's more so offering kind of a perspective to question how to kind of move forward when people Israeli's Jews whoever, right, are indoctrinated to believe that Palestine means no place for me, okay, And then you couple that with the anger anguish that the oppressed people are feeling and saying, yeah, fu fuck that,

like we we don't want you here, right, like you look what you're doing to us. I think that they view the Palestinian flag as a replacement of, you know, the flag of Israel, which many people actually kind of not many people, some people view it that way. And I think that the way I see it and the way many people I know see it, it's a flag that represents liberation from oppression, liberation of the Palestinian people who are being actively oppressed by Zionism, right, an ideology, right,

you know, perpetuated and executed by people. But it's still an ideology.

Speaker 14

So just like because I think this always comes up but being anti zion and it has nothing to do with being anti Semitic, And I think they always get completed, and that's on purpose to make people afraid to speak up about Israel. I can only imagine how brainwashed Zionism becomes to like the whole, like the education and everything, Like, is that something you experience like firsthand?

Speaker 5

One hundred percent? I think what we've seen over the last decade, right, the fact that Natanya has been in power for over twenty years, that's that's like the dictatorship level stuff. And people in America are like, oh yeah, the West, you know, there is a semblance of you know, power to the people in the West, as semblance of it. Right, we're seeing how much the media is in cahoots with

you know, power against the people right now. It's just very, very scary and everyone should be up in arms, no matter where your feelings lie. But there is you know, there's a new president. You know, every four years of a president is termed. Right, you can't be you can't be a president for more than two terms. Right. These are real things, right, these are real protections you have

three different branches of government. Right, you have local level local government, you have so many different checks and balances that are you know, corrupted and corupted in certain ways, you know, through lobbyists and you know, corporate interests, et cetera. I'm aware, but at least you have that system. In Israel, that system doesn't exist, Okay, there's no constitution and a

prime minister can't be termed. And so now Bibing Ntano has been in power and figured out how to survive attempts on his throne many times over through building coalitions with the right wing extremists, which frankly are against his interests. Like he wanted to kind of perpetuate status quo and just kind of be in power. Like this is kind of made it difficult for him to just be the guy who kind of you know, makes it makes everything

okay for Israelis. Right now, Israelis are scared shitless and so. But but putting that aside and going back to your point, the knock about was never even discussed until recent history, Like it was not like no one even knew what that word means. Right, we celebrated it as Jomat's mote independence day. So the Israeli Independence Day is the Palestinian's knockbat which means the great tragedy for those who don't know, and what they call it the catastrophe. Yes and so.

But but what's interesting and very sad is that in recent years, because of the world actually and when Israelis tell you don't know what you're talking about, don't comment on things you don't talk about that you don't know about. You most likely if you've done any any literally any if you read one book on Palistine, if you read on Palestine by Noam chomskyin and Elain Pape, like, you

know more than Israelis know about their own situation. And I say that wholeheartedly because I know what they study, right, They omit the large swaths of information in order to form the psyche through the narrative that they perpetuate. And so. But because of recent external and global pressure, because of the fact that the world's the new generation of young people have educated themselves on Palestine, you know, catalyze a

lot of them, catalyzed by the social justice movement. Right, the Angela Davis is the Tromskis of the world who always since the sixties I've been talking about Black liberation is incomplete without the liberation of Palestinians unifying struggles. They know more about history of it Israel and Palestine then Israeli's new. Okay. I've always been super impressed, not like not to say that people are dumb. I actually think people are very smart, right if they're willing to look.

But every Palestinian friend of mine, every single one knows so much about Zionism and zion Is history, right, there's scholars of Zionist history, right, But Israeli there's no idea about Palestinians and Palestinian history.

Speaker 14

It's just I think it's really unsettling because, I mean, for those who don't know, the catastrophe was like like the mass expulsion of like seven hundred and fifty thousand Palestinians, ethnic cleansing, massacres extreme, like just a disgusting show of forcing someone to leave their land and taking it over. It was atrocious and her and I think the fact that they can't even learn about power or like learn deeply about Palestine or Palestinians, it's like another way of

ethnic cleansing and like forgetting to even exist. And I think that's very unsettling because you can't just forget. I mean, at the same time, they say, like history is written by the people that are in power, right, or the people that like win the war, quote unquote, and they're very capable of convincing a big amount of people that likew like that they were never here.

Speaker 5

I think being hopeful is a practice, and I've definitely fallen into, you know, bouts of depression and helplessness and hopelessness also, I think we all do. But I think it behooves us to practice hopefulness, especially in times like these, because without it, we don't have the power to liberate the oppressed. Right, Yeah, and I think you know, yeah, I mean, like like you said, it's it's I think

it's also important. I keep saying the Palestinian struggle is the people's movement all over the world, right, and we're seeing that It's not me, I'm nobody, but but we're seeing that people understand that. Right. Like I said, people are smart, Right, you don't have to go to you know, an Ivy League school to be intelligent.

Speaker 13

Right.

Speaker 5

Palafreer talked about banking and intelligence, right, when you just consume information from a teacher, perpetuating the perpetuating the injustices,

and maintaining the system of oppression. Right, you can be as educated as you want in that form of education and not understand the world and understand the inequalities around you, right, But if you feel those inequalities, if you have that empathy, if you're able to expand your consciousness a little bit to also include those that you may not identify with or as or you know that that maybe are not tangible, their experience is not as tangible to you, then then

you're able to understand and situations pretty clearly and easily. And I think the world is showing up because they understand that. Right. Sure, the air world is showing up. And that's incredible, right because they understand. Right, this is like what I always say is Palestine is the last kind of like I said earlier, the last direct colonialist project that exists in the world direct right, in terms of direct and active about that colonials project that exists

in the world and the air world. You know, if you read Edwards Aid and Orientalism, you understand how the West basically created and othered kind of they are a world in order to create that separation and division in order to create you know, a world that serves self interest in visualism versus kind of communitarianism and of the

kind of East. And so when when you think about in that context, you start understanding that, you know, this is and this is a struggle against kind of Western imperialism, right, this is a struggle to free all oppress people, because

that's what that's what Zionism Israel currently stands for. And everyone who perpetuates it, and people that talk about intersectionality and anti racism and all of that, and they still say and they still don't understand that this is literally a real time manifestation of the ship that they've been reading in history books, right, and we're seeing it and it's jarring, and resistance is fucking jarring, right Like it

was darring to me. I could barely watch it. I had people crying, you know, and this is I didn't say this earlier, but I had you know, family members that didn't want to speak to me, and like, you know, people cursing at me, and like friends from you know, middle school sending me hate messages. My mom is receiving death threats, right, Like this is real shit, right, And so like this isn't like an abstract like and and so you know that's what that's what people don't necessarily

understand when they just approach it academically. And I commend them. And I think it's important to like understand the intellectual context of things, like I've done the work, I've read the books, but I think it's also important to kind of take a step back and contextualize things all around, right, and only through that contextualization can we rehumanize, you know, both the the oppressed and the oppressor are in order to actually have a path forward that's inclusive of all

that doesn't that doesn't pit people against each other. Right, Jews lived on that land for many years before Zionism, if your.

Speaker 14

Scholar, I want to say, just fine, before the introduction of Zionism, which is a very modern, very fascist ideology.

Speaker 5

Not only Zionism though, right, Like think about Psych's Peco. Right, the British French treaty that was signed in nineteen twenty that sliced up the Arab world, according to their whim didn't take into account any demograph, any ethnic geographic relations, didn't take into account any of that, and that is what set the tone for a lot of what we're

seeing in their world today. Right, compounded by the introduction of a European ideology into the region that served European interests, is what is what we're seeing to this very day, and the Palestinians bear the biggest brunt of it. I wouldn't say like I would say, like in recent years, there's tragedies all around due to Western imperialism and Western intervention. Right, I take that back, right, Like I don't want to compare tragedies, but the tragedy of the Palestinian people that

there's no one really advocating on their behalf. Yeah, I was going to add a wrinkle that probably ninety nine point nine percent of the population doesn't know, including Pustinians and Arabs, because it was actively erased. But up until psychs Peco, up until Western imperialism, Arab Jews were an integral part of Arabic culture. Okay, An my grandparents from Iraq, Right, Iraq wasn't the Iraqi Jews were not Zionis. There were hundreds of thousands of Jews in Iraq that lived there

since Babylonian times. Right, there are many you know, many empires that came through the air world, right, so this place replaced et cetera. But they were there for hundreds of years at the minimum. Some would say some of them were actually not there due to the Spanish Inquisition, right, but actually were there before and never left basically, And so you know they were musicians, you know, they played kusum, right like there were there were statesmen, there were they

were very integral part of the culture, right. And and there many Arab friends that do know this, and they they're like, yeah, like this is the biggest, the biggest, one of the biggest tragedies is kind of the betrayal of the Arab jew right, And they understand, right, like at this point in time, and this is not only iraqis was Egypt and you know Yemen and Morocco. There's a huge just community, right, like these these people live there.

The Nazism is not an Arabic concept. They're trying to paint Arabs as Nazis.

Speaker 14

Even growing up, I would go to Syria a lot, and my grandfather would like he would only get bread at the Jewish bakery, Like he would take the walk and go there, and it was normal. No one cares, like, no one gives a shit really what your religion is

in those communities. And I think, I mean, this is obvious for people that are reading about all of this, but the media and Zionism in Israel, they're purposely conflating what's happening with religion to make it more complicated for people, to make it this like ancient battle of all time, when it's not about any kind of Muslim versus Jewish versus Arab versus whatever. It's it's really so simple, to

the point where it's kind of silly. And I think they make it so complicated for people to be scared to talk about it. They're they're not informed enough. They don't know about religion, they don't know about the history. You don't have to know about any of that to know that oppression is wrong and genocide is wrong.

Speaker 5

And every every every resistance movement in history was considered a terrorist, yes, movement in modern times, right, even Israeli militias. Right, you had the Lefi, the Excel and the AGA. Okay, they're considered terrorist organizations because they would attack civilian British and they've attacked civilian targets during the British mandate. YEP, sounds familiar, but you know what, those those three militias

became the idea, the idea exactly. The three militias that formed that formed the IDEF once Israel was given statehood were considered terrorist organizations. The ira Rist organization right Melson Mandela was on the US Terrorist watchless until two thousand and eight. These are real things. These are all facts.

But I'm saying even if you're thinking about it from the perspective of attacking civilians, Okay, wrong in my opinion, but when you don't have if you look at actually ere another another fact, right, look at what the Chbella is doing. Okay, they were considered terrorist organization. Their armed to the teeth. Israel scared shitless of the Isabella threat. I'm hearing it from people on the ground. Right, they're attacking military targets. They're showing the world that they can't

because they can. They used to not be able to, Now they can. So they are when a population is oppressed, suppressed to the level that the Gosins are, what military do they have? Do they have F sixteen fighter jets that they can go and bomb? I don't know the Kiriyah, did you guys know that the biggest military base in Israel is in the middle of the televis.

Speaker 14

Yeah, in a residential area.

Speaker 5

In a residential area. So what if, what if? What if the Gosins had f sixteen fighter what if Kamas had sixteen fighters? They wouldn't want to bomb that? Yeah, Like people are people that dense like that. They don't understand how this thing works and what what oppression looks like. Right. A lot of my Pastinian friends always say the world wants us to be the perfect victims. Yeah, and in a lot of in a lot of senses, the burden is always on the victim, right in these oppressive scenarios.

So I always tell them, guys, like, we have to be smart. We have to make sure that you know, again, I like, it's it's trauma that I can't you know, I feel in my bones. But but it's not it's not directly happening to me, and and and so I can't. I'm not. It's not from a place of judgment. It's from a pragmatic perspective. We have to understand that that's

the trap that they're setting for us. The Kamas enacted the Kamas did exactly with the right wing government wanted them to do in order to justify the plan that they had all along. I'm not going to go so far as to start perpetuating conspiracy theories because it's not my place. So I'm not going to say that they planned this and it was, you know, an inside job. I'm not going to say that. But what I will say is it served the interests of the right wing government.

And the one thing I wanted to say, because I keep going off on tangents and I apologize, But to your point about the Knakba, I said, in the last ten years, it's pretty crazy to see the narrative shift. Israel has so been so emboldened. They feel so invincible because of the international support that they have. Now they acknowledge a knakoba. Now they acknowledge the knob, but we

know how they acknowledge it. They say, yeah, the Knackba happened, Let's do a second one, yep, right, And so now they're now all of a sudden the knock by existed, right, and they're basically saying, hey, let's do a second one. All the like, all the right wing government of Mine officials are saying, second knof but let's do it now. Let's let's that's what they try to do. Yeah, they're trying to do in Gaza.

Speaker 14

It feels like the first one just ended, right.

Speaker 5

That I always I always say that I agree, but I'm saying, like I'm talking about mass expulsion right now. They're trying to They're trying, under international on everyone's noses to utilize genocide and ethnic cleansing to displace millions of Palestinians from Gaza. And God knows, I don't. They don't have a they don't. This was like a biblical idea, right, like the Judean Samaria. This is not like a there's no like specific plans that people had, Like this is

a biblical, fervent, ideological idea. They don't freaking know what they're doing. They don't want to go to they don't want to go to war with Iran. They're scared of the Like these are real things, these are real threats, Like Israel hasn't fought a real opponent since the seventies and the Young pol War. That's what I'm trying to say, Like this showed how vulnerable they are and they're scared. I'm telling you, like I know the sentiment on the ground,

like people are scared out of their minds. They don't think. They're not very confident in Israel's military, right, Like that's why they're bombing the shit, and like that's why they haven't invaded. They said they're going to invade, babes talking this big game. They haven't done yet because they're scared.

Speaker 14

Remember, also, is that the IDF that's all. It does not actually act in the best interests of the civilians, if anything. Like there was like a report from an Israeli woman who survived the massacre at the music festival that said a lot of them were shot by like their own forces. It was like indiscriminate shooting.

Speaker 5

The biggest casualties for Israeli soldiers up until this was friendly fire.

Speaker 7

Yeah really, that's that's.

Speaker 14

I mean, I just think that's so hard to remember because it's a they're framed as this very like ideal warrior bullshit and it's so far from the truth.

Speaker 5

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Their eighteen year old kids. Yeah, these aren't like US, like marines that are career assassins. Like have you ever seen in a US marine and next to an Israeli soldiers. I'm serious, like like.

Speaker 14

I know, there's become a trend to be a soldier of anything. It's like very like you see these like young people talk like yeah, exactly, it's like a very cool thing to.

Speaker 5

Do because there's never a threat though Israel. Israel has been You've grown up in Israel believing that you're the most powerful entity and you can do whatever you want whenever you want, right, and that notion has been shaken to its core. And if you're part of the propaganda machine, if you if you're caught in the propaganda machine that is kind of Zionist Israeli ideology, you're basically now your whole world is crumbled beneath you. Right, you're completely in

survival mode. Everyone's posting, everyone's like you have to eradicate come us. They're not even eradicating comas. What are they doing, They're just emboldening come ups Like this happens all the time. It's just happening on a much bigger scale right now. Every any Hamas leader that they basically looking for, like a big like a major Hamas leadership, you know, attack and once they're able to neutralize, you know, in their words,

numerous high ranking officials. I think they'll declare victory even though they're not going to be victorious. They're not going to bring back the fourteen hundred people.

Speaker 14

They're also going to kill the hostages at this rate, you know what I mean, Like they're not like.

Speaker 7

They've already killed more than twenty two.

Speaker 14

That's how much do you actually care about your civilians and the hostage like the foreign hostages either like it's your but but I don't know those clearly showing their ass.

Speaker 5

In my opinion, I want to have a clear message though to kind of people that are on the fence in the West that are being fed propaganda through Western media outlets. That is quite clear at this point. And some of them recognize this, and that's why they come to my page and they're like, oh, you know, thank you.

I didn't I didn't know. I didn't know. In Israel, there are many people, not even ideologically that want to bring the hostages back and don't understand why Israel is doing what it's doing before and not even talking to them about the hostages.

Speaker 14

Yeah, it complete being like pleads just yeah.

Speaker 5

I'm not talking about left wing activists. I'm talking about like average israelis right. Natania has failed the Israeli people that attack the fact that and again this I don't enough people know this right, people who know know, but maybe some some don't. That attack was a complete military

failure on behalf of Israel. And that happened because over the last six to nine months since the right wing government took place, took power, they've been using the idea to support, empower, embolden and protect settlers in the West Bank. And that's why settler attacks have increased. That's why settlements have increased, that's why they're more settlers than ever before. And what they were doing on that very day people

don't already know. I hope they do. But if they don't already know, the IDF was in the West Bank on Sukquot, which is a Jewish holiday, and they were protecting settlers in building a sukkah, that structure that people sit in in the middle of Juara, a Palestinian village, and they were protecting them and chaper owning them so that they can break into Palestinian village to build a sukkah in order to antagonize Palestinians. That's say what you may about anything else. The fact that that is the

priority of the government. You know you're doing the oppression. You're already committing the oppression. You're already subjugating the Tastinian people. You know that Hamas is comas, you're going to remove security forces from the border to embolden and empower settlers instead. It doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 14

It's I mean, that's why the most unsettling things I've seen coming out of Israel are those right wing protests where they're like death to Arabs and whatever, or like they're attacking people and the ideaf is like either helping them or standing by. If you're on the fence about this, still, you are literally for genocide. Those are the two differences. It's either your for genocide or you're against genocide. And if you're considering the options, examine yourself. That's not right.

I was just sent this tweet apparently yesterday, the twitter for Israeli Prime Minister at Israel PM said this is a struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle. Are you fucking kidding me? That's like Nazi Hitler shit? Are you there are so many lives I've already been lost, and the ones that have not been lost are never going to recover. They've lost so much other than their life.

There are so many terarrifying and horrific videos that I've seen that no one should have to go through, And not only are they going through it, they're getting funded and encouraged by most of the world. I cannot accept that. I sorry, I don't want to cry, but I might.

Speaker 5

I mean, it's that's where we're at at this point.

Speaker 14

No, but I appreciate you being here to get through to people who might still be considering what's happening as a both sides thing or a justification for anything. When they see tweets like that, or when they see justification for killing all the people because they're all barbarians or whatever it is. I urge you. I urge you to seek out Palestinian sources of news, actually see what's happening in Gaza, listen to people who are not advertising anything

to you, and it's like pleading for their lives. I just this can't be how we end up as a people. I'm it's extremely unlike no words to describe how devastating, and I think if you are listening and you are wondering what to do, there are places you can donate to. I can put some links in the description of sources that I trust of people to follow and all that stuff,

so you can look at the description for that. I think what's very important that people maybe aren't taking too seriously is how important social media and like spreading awareness has been, because the only reason the resistance has come this far is because of that, because more people are aware about what's going on. People aren't accepting that Israel is doing this. So I think we just can't stop.

Like as much as they want the world to forget that Palestinians were even there, we cannot forget Palestinians, and I'm not going to stop talking about it neither he is.

Speaker 5

This is why I'm speaking on I just got a message on Palestinian friends. You are our voice now. We're not allowed to spit out a lip. They are arresting anyone who speaks or shares the truth. Please, I beg you don't give up on our people in Gaza. We need your voice to stop the genocide. Thousands of lives have already been taken. We can't stand this anymore.

Speaker 14

Please listen to that, everybody, please.

Speaker 5

It's very hard to fathom and internalize what's happening.

Speaker 14

Yeah, it's a lot, and we're privileged enough to think about it that deeply. People in Gaza Palestinians, they don't have the luxury of no of anything other than their nightmare of a reality.

Speaker 5

No, I want to add in just yea, because I think that the biggest kind of pushback that we keep hearing is homas Yes, please yet. And I think that again remembering what we kind of mentioned earlier in the call, how liberation movements for occupied peoples have always been deemed terrorist organizations and you know, even targeted civilians. Right, So not only like by the definition of terrorist organizations are

terrorist organizations. So even if that's what we believe, and let's just say that that's you know, we accept and agree that that's what Hamas is, I think it's important to understand that terrorist organizations have become political organizations time and time again. And I think that it's also important to understand historically the Hamas As as an entity again remind you was created and partially created and funded by the State of Israel, emboldened by the State of Israel.

Because I want to be very clear, up until the nineties, right al slow accords to the peace process. People say, oh, the Palestinians didn't want peace. To your point earlier, the Palestinians were willing to take almost anything. At that point, Arafat, who was considered a terrorist before he became a statesman, right, was on the table with Robbin had an agreement in place. Okay, and then people don't know. If you're not a scholar

and you don't know, you should know. Oh, Goldstein, an Israeli terrorist came in to a mosque I believe it was in Hebron, I don't remember exactly, and he killed more than thirty people during prayer, just indiscriminately shot innocent people in a mosque. So the biggest, one of the

biggest tragedies. Right, and then he was not only did they the response you know Overban's response to that was it was locking down Hebron, Palestinians in Hebron, so because he was fearful of what the Palestinians would do in retaliation. The immediate response by Rabine was locking down the people of Hebron. Okay, instead of going and doing something about the settlers that committed the crime or that emboldened the

person committing the crime. That's number one. Number two, that sparked the retaliation because when people don't have justice, they take justice in their own hands. So that sparked this series of attacks in Israel, right, devastating attacks in Israel. But it was that that did that, And it was his He could have he could have handled that differently, but he didn't, right and and and that was what sparked the response. Then in turn, okay again who putting

that aside? Right? And sorry, little tidbit. His grave Hu Cochtain's grave is go uarded by the IDF as some and many many many consider him a national hero.

Speaker 14

Yeah, I've seen photos of people like crying at his grave like it's yes, save their family or something. When he's not just you literally just like went into a mosque with a gun and shot thirty people who were fucking praying.

Speaker 5

Yes, And that's wrong.

Speaker 14

People are idolizing exactly.

Speaker 5

It's rotten to its core, is my point. This is what you're supporting when you support the state of Israel. Okay, this is part of part of this is part of what you're supporting. Now taking a second step, Robin was assassinated by a Jewish Israeli, not by Pastinian. Even in spite of everything, the peace process was still going on because they did everything to foil it, right, and then

they assassinated the Israeli Prime minister. And ever since then, right then you had Ariel's your own and whatever that to continue a peace process and you know, some capacity. But ever since then, for the last twenty three years, no one has been talking about a peace process. They blamed, they blamed the Palestinians for every act of resistance. They don't listen. They believe that they talk the way that politicians discussed the Palestinian kind of oppression is managing the occupation, Okay,

managing the oppipation. No one's talking about peace, not left left, pseudo left, whatever you want to call it, not liberal, zionis left or center or right. No one is talking about peace. No one is talking about any semblance of peace. I find it very particular, right, and this is why, this is why I'm saying we live in the twilight zone. That Donald Trump's four years in office, okay, he had Kushner that that say, what all the bad things right

about his about his behavior. He was and through normalization deals with their world, trying to get a deal for the Palestinian people, albeit the most absurd sort of deal if you ever read what the Abraham Cords actually entailed, right like weird like highways and weird, right like not a deal that anyone should have accepted. But putting that aside, he was talking about it. There was discussion, there was Palestinian like the word Palestinian was being said by the

Office of the President. In the last four years that Biden was in office. No one said anything, no one did anything to advanced piece. No one even brought a bogus deal like Darrek Kushner to the table. I don't make it make sense. I don't understand. They basically bought into the Zionist idea that we can just live, continue living while millions of people are being oppressed and occupied. This is the Democratic Party. And that's why we see the media now the way it is, because they're rolling

the media narrative too. Right, So open your eyes see it for what it is, right, don't get cloud don't let your judgment get clouded by this. Two side bs aspect hold space for the killing of innocent civilians, including the killing of Israeli innocent civilians, while simultaneously understanding that this is all because of the aggression of colonialism and specifically a perpetuation of the Zionist project as a colonialist,

nationalist ethno state. And that is what I ask of you guys to do, right, Yeah, thank.

Speaker 14

You for that. That's I think a great place to end. Thank you again for joining me. You are just as your Palestinian friends said in that message, your voice is really critical because people will more likely listen to you than to a Palestinian. So I very much thank you for your activism. And I don't know, it's we're not living in a just world and so we just have to stick together. I also want to mention the other reason why social media is so important is like, one,

there's a reason they cut electricity to Gaza. They don't want anything coming out of there. They want them to die in a blackout. And two they are literally arresting people for following Palestinian accounts. Now yeah, so I mean, if that's not sutalitarianism, like what the fuck is? I don't but anyway, so, uh, that's it for today. I can't I don't think I can do anymore. But again I'll put some sources in the description to donate to

to keep raising awareness. If you have people in your circles that are still hesitant about having a stance on this, like have conversations. It shouldn't be complicated. It really shouldn't be, because it's not. And that's all. That's all I have. Thanks everybody, thank you.

Speaker 5

For having me.

Speaker 1

Welcome back to it could happen here, a podcast about things falling apart, And speaking of falling apart, when we're talking about the crumbles, the slow and sometimes rapid erosion of institutions in this country, nothing is quite as relevant as the tech industry.

Speaker 2

I'm Robert Evans.

Speaker 1

Obviously on the line with me is Garrison Davis, and we also have someone new with us today who's going to be talking talking tech and particularly talking about the NFT crash and some of what that has to tell us about both how the tech industry functions now and about how kind of our economies of hype contribute to a state of what Ed Zitron, who was our guest here, tends to call the rot economy. Ed welcome to the show. Hey, thank you for having me.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I'll just hand it over to you at this point.

Speaker 3

So you may remember two years ago where kind of ghoulish, half wit libertarians emphatically told you that NFT's non functible tokens would change everything, that people wanted to own a unique digital object, and indeed that the said uniqueness of said object, say a picture of an ape or an animated gift of a sports moment, would be worth millions.

The hypeia was insane. Justin Bieber paid one point three million dollars for a board ape, which is one of ten thousand procedurally generated pictures of a monkey, and celebrities like Milakounis and Lindsay Lohan would fund and create their own NFT projects. In fact, multiple celebrities raised millions of

dollars for these kind of noxious little creations. Their logic entirely hinged upon the idea that something being a one of a kind somehow made it valuable, and that a digital token connected to a picture or a video was the same as say, a rare baseball card or a comic book, or the sense that owning part of a digital entity like a game was somehow valuable. I personally do not think owning a sword from World of Warcraft a unique one means anything. I do not think that's

meaningful in any way. But listen, got a bit of advice for anyone listening. When any one tells you to ignore your eyes in your ears, it's the Duller voice in your head that says, huh, that sounds really goddamn stupid. Or to of course, put a bunch of money into an unproven asset. You should always try and work out how they're going to get paid in the end. But nevertheless, it's important to know the fundamentals of this crap, this

noxious industry. Now, of course we're talking about cryptocurrency, so these are tokens on a decentralized blockchain. In this case, a non fungible token or not as an n FT is a unique digital identifier on a blockchain like Ethereum or Polygon, one that cannot be copied, substituted, or divided like a regular token. Ownership in this case, who owns the n FT is based on whoever owns the wallet.

That said, that the NFT in question is actually stored and meaning that if someone tricks you into sending your board ape to somebody else they technically own it. These NFTs of images, say the board Ape, Yacht Club, Pudgy penguins, what have you, are connected to images. So by which I mean you are quite literally buying a jpeg, you are buying a tokenized jpeg. These images are kept on something called the Interplanetary File System IPFS, and you have

an IPFS address that attached to each token. What's important to know about this is this is another decentralized project where there's no real proof that your IPFS dress isn't going to disappear in ten years. So you could end up buying one of these tokens and be left with bugger roll. Like I said, you're effectively buying a very expensive jpeg that may or may not be an image of something in ten, fifteen, twenty years, or even five years.

Speaker 11

So like I used to buy a whole bunch of digital games for my Nintendo Wii system, right, and these were not physical games, And now I cannot re download any of these things even though I bought them, because the digital system is just Nintendo is no longer supporting it is because it's kind of like a similar mechanism here in terms of there's like all this necessary internet infrastructure to like host these digital assets, but we don't

actually control it infrastructure, right, So it's different than holding, like, you know, a disc or, in the case of an NFT, like an actual physical picture of a monkey.

Speaker 3

What's really funny is the example you just gave is one of the few examples of where NFTs could actually be used.

Speaker 6

Huh.

Speaker 3

Digital games right now are in this position where, like you said, and you find this a lot with streaming products as well, where you can buy something, you buy a video game, you buy a movie, and you own it on Apple TV. Apple has complete power to pull that down if indeed there was a non fungible token that contained the video in question, that might be quite useful. That might be really useful. In fact, unlike NFTs in general,

which are not useful at all. You are just buying a jpeg that leads to an image, and owning this jpeg, this NFT might get you inside a discord, perhaps a special discord, of like minded people who have spent a lot of money on something very silly.

Speaker 7

Sounds like a party.

Speaker 3

It's so good and it's it was really something. These things have been around since at least twenty fourteen. I think crypto Kitties was one of the original ones. You could breed horrible looking cats. These horrible cats have sex and create horrible looking cats. Well you didn't get to see the sex. Don't worry.

Speaker 7

Okay, what's the only reason I invested? Well, I let me google crypto kitty rule thirty four. I'm sure.

Speaker 3

I'm sure that there is a crypto kitty hen type.

Speaker 1

But now make sure to put Reddit in the in the search RaSE.

Speaker 13

There.

Speaker 2

You gotta you're gonna get better results that way.

Speaker 7

Will I get in trouble for sending these results in the group chat? Will people get mad?

Speaker 3

I feel nothing anymore.

Speaker 11

Yeah, honestly, there's not as much as I thought there would be.

Speaker 7

I'm kind of disappointed.

Speaker 3

Well, there's a vampire. So the thing about this is the gold rush, This huge multi billion dollar NFT industry that kind of popped and dropped in the last couple of years, was something created by a kind of perfect

storm of post lockdown financial hystery. You saw it with like AMC and game stop stocks, you saw it with crypto in general, and it was the sense that you were getting in early on something, and it kind of resembled in a funky way, like beanie babies baseball cards, but also with the kind of stench of the fine

art industry. But I also think that during the pandemic, and I'll get to a little more of this later, people really got this defined sense of how unfair everything is, how you can't just go to college anymore, you can't just work really hard and get a mortgage. You have to effectively find a way to cheat. And this seemed like a cheat they had got in on early. The problem is they didn't, and I'll kind of get into

that later. But another part of it, the part that really stank to me, was that they were selling this ugly, obviously rotten dream that you were owning part of a future media property, being at the yeah, like you were going to be part of Disney or Marvel the board apes.

When you bought a board ape, you allegedly got the rights to distribute it and build a show or merchandise, And in fact, Seth Green bought an ape that he tried to build a TV show around, Classic twenty twenty two idea building a TV show.

Speaker 1

Around Oh you guys, did you guys see the show?

Speaker 7

By the way, we waked in the first few episodes.

Speaker 1

No, no, no, that was a different NFT show.

Speaker 7

Yeah, that was a different board ape show.

Speaker 2

I can clarify here.

Speaker 1

There was a there was a show called The Red Ape Family that was about an adjacent property that Red Apes, but other NFTs. But then Seth Green was also trying to make a show that was like almost like a Who Framed Roger Rabbit where it's a mix of like cartoons and like real background sets. But it's just like about Seth Green, who is a monkey as a bartender, Like it looked like dog shit.

Speaker 3

What's funny is someone scammed him out of that ape so he I had to pause He had to pause production on his show.

Speaker 7

This is the future of entertainment fucks.

Speaker 3

Because he didn't have the intellectual property rights anymore. And then he ended up having to pay one hundred grand to get it back and the show never I cannot find the show anywhere. But this is the thing putting that aside. People genuinely thought they were buying, like amazing Fantasy fifteen, first appearance of Spider Man, stuff like that.

They thought that they were buying something that would give them access but also some degree of ownership over a future IP and frankly, I can understand how they were scammed because you had people like Alexis o'hanian, the founder of Reddit, who threw his VC firm seven seven six sunk fifty four million dollars into an NFT project called Doodles, claiming in January of this year, twenty twenty three, that Digles this year, this year. H In fact, now, to

be clear, the funding was last twenty twenty two. Okay, okay, but he claimed this year. And to be clear, Doodles is a collection of NFTs and an associated cut in that kind of looks like Adventure Time, but significantly worse.

Speaker 7

Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 3

Alexis said that Doodles wanted to build the next generation of Disney and a whole world of IP that is giving people a state and a sense of ownership.

Speaker 7

Sure so, sure, buddy, Yeah.

Speaker 3

Exactly, Thank you, Alexis. I one hunch, how does being rich feel? So to be clear, what Doodles was is still it was a collection of ten thousand NFTs of Doodles procedurally generated, like most of these, and it's worth taking a step back here. Why are so many of these projects ten thousand images? It's because there's absolutely no creativity, not even a little. They just is it's.

Speaker 11

Like a is there like a false scarcity aspect which is trying to like inflate value. Is that like another reason for why they would have like these limitatches becase I know the original board ape ones were like around around ten thousand as well, at least initially.

Speaker 3

Yes, there's always like a couple thousand ten thousand, but when you take a step back and really think about it, that's actually a huge amount. It isn't the scarce good It isn't It may be to the people who are pumping and dumping them, but ten thousand isn't creativity. There's what like it's maybe thirty different spider men, so that's not ten thousand of them. And none of these have

a name, none of these have a character. I will get to the two characters and Doodles, because there are just two.

Speaker 1

The more that you talk about this and just kind of based on my paying attention to it, I kind of feel like part of what we're seeing is like

the intersection of two cultural myths, right. One of them is like the myth about how I mean, it's not entirely myth, largely accurate about what happened with Apple when it went public, right, and you have all of theseundreds of like nerds who had just been like working class kids who become worth hundreds of millions of dollars overnight, right, which has become part of kind of like our our cultural memory of like how tech is supposed to work

ever since. And then the other is like Star Wars, right, and the way in which George Lucas revolutionized capitalizing on every silly idea you've ever had, Like a lot of NFT. A lot of the NFT hype is based on the belief that like you could be you could you could buy into the next like Glurf, stream Bow or whatever fucking weirdo George Lucas character, and it could get a movie, you know, because yeah, it's all infinitely capitalizable.

Speaker 3

Yeah, the kind of Buckshittos of the world. Yeah, yeah, I mean you're actually right as well, because I don't know if you remember when episode one Star Wars Episode one came out, they deliberately made the box to look like the old Return and the Jedi figures, which were now worth thousands, well a lot.

Speaker 7

Of money, a lot of money.

Speaker 3

But there is that full scarcity aspect, and it is. It is like that, except even worse because there's less value to it. Because when you buy a doodle, as you will putting thousands of dollars into something called a doodle, one might wonder what exactly is the value of this, Because doodles do not actually convey any intellectual property. Board apes kind of do. The legalities muddy. You can merchandise your doodle for up to one hundred thousand dollars of

physical goods, So T shirts. You know why you would buy a doodle T shirt? I'm not really sure, but you could sell it. Just the theoreticals here are amazing. But Doodles, really, at it's call, was sold on the idea that it allowed you to steer the company to vote on the future of Doodles, which is kind of similar to Board

Ape Yacht Club. You could get ape coin if you had NFTs of the apes or the mute apes, and you could then vote in these votes about the few true of the Board eight Yacht Club, but not Yuga Labs, who owns the board ep Yacht Club. So really you were just controlling a vague sense of nothing. In the case of Doodles, you could vote on what they may do in the future. It was never really obvious was

doodles a doo. Doodles is a dow okay, okay. And the funny thing to remember about almost all of these as well is not in the case of Doodles, but in the case of like the bord Epe Yacht Club and the ape chain, I hate this crape and Joyson Horowitz owns fourteen percent of all ape coin of their initial drop. They own multiple cryptoproducts, large chunks of these total tokens, and so they can control these votes if they need to. But what's also important to know is

none of this stuff involves the actual goddamn company. Nobody owns a thing. These decentralized autonomous organizations doos are always framed as this kind of democratic process, carefully leaving out the fact that demo crack system with transactable votes is by definition of goddamn kleptocracy. But on top of that, you don't own anything. You don't have anything with these companies. You don't get stock, you don't get anything. You just have one of ten thousand images that may in ten

years not actually go anywhere. It's farcical. The only thing dumber than that, however, is the fact that Doodles is no longer an NFT project and will no longer cater the speculators. According to a statement from marsh by the co founder, Jordan Poopy Castro, Poopy is oh wow.

Speaker 1

See this is where I'm putting, you know what, Garrison, I'm putting the whole company pension plane behind this guy. Poopy's got to be the one who makes those cars from now on.

Speaker 3

It's really going to suck as well. If you were like a speculative investor in Doodles already and you find out that your whole thing is going to be worthless because of a guy called Poopy, I think that that

that's just very special to me. So yeah, continue, I'll continue. So, just to be clear, less than the year before this, according to their investor, this company was positioned to continue to define the NFT industry and onboard millions to the blockchain and become one of the most inclusive, creative, joyful media brands in Web three and beyond. This is the same company that had now officially rug pulled their entire

customer base. And by the way, if you'd have invested at the time that the fifty four million dollar funding round, so towards the end of twenty twenty two, you would have lost money. You would not have gained money. There was no liquidity event that had given would give you anything. Also important to recognize with so other than Alexis o'hanian,

the other investor in Doodles was FTX Ventures. So in March of twenty twenty three, you kind of sat down with morning coffee and you read the announcement from Jordan Poopy Castro and found out that your FTX back to n FT project had lost about eighty five percent of its value and now the company was not backing you in any fucking way.

Speaker 11

Yeah, but I mean FTX is putting out Super Bowl ads. They seem stable, they seem like Alliam, that'd be fine, what could.

Speaker 3

Happen'd be fine. But what's great about this is it is probably one of the largest rug pools I've ever seen. And nobody is in trouble. Nobody's mad at Alexis Ohanium. Doodles sold people on a dream, a stupid dream, but a dream, yes, yes, yes, very very goddamn stupid one that you'd be investing in participating in the future of intellectual property and have some industry over its future. You would theoretically, though obviously when you read this now it

sounds dumb. And also when you read it at the time, it's you were meant to be buying into the next Disney, the next Marvel, Yes, what was sold?

Speaker 7

That is another huge aspect a thing.

Speaker 11

There's like, I think a lot of people who are like, you know, grew up with like pop culture and want to take part in like the creation of like culture and media. But you know, Hollywood systems feels so foreign and unattainable. So this thing comes up and this looks like like a democratized way that you can like get in on some like new version of what the entertainment

like landscape will be. And you're like, oh, this is this is like my chance I can be one of ten thousand people to like contribute towards this next big, you know, cultural thing in ten twenty years. I mean, obviously that's like in retrospect, it's very clearly a scam for some people, like probably myself and many people listening. Initially this sounded like a scam, but it certainly was

alluring for a good deal number of people. I mean, I'm this is kind of reminding me that there was this very similar kind of DOW, big big failure around Dune. They were wanting to put out.

Speaker 1

Oh yeah, they wanted to buy, they wanted to buy the deck and the rights to Yodorowski's Dune, Yes yeah.

Speaker 11

And and and put out media and put it like their own like animated series, which is funny because initially they just they weren't even gonna bother with like the intellectual property, which is really funny because you know, a big part of of this this NFT stuff is like you own the IP of each NFT character, right, And as they as this kind of project progressed, they slowly started to realize that what they've done was probably just

commit massive fraud, and they completely collapsed. Like this Dune like NFT DOW project was being was being boosted by a lot of like very mainstream publications. It was it was extremely hyped up, which can lead people to like assume this is like a legitimate, like entertainment project that you could like participate in by buying this small little piece. Last year, very very clearly kind of fell apart. Yes, was kind of pre predestined.

Speaker 3

And what's really sad about this is we can laugh at these people. I'll get to this in a bit and laugh at these people. We should, It's very funny. But at the same time, a lot of people got screwed here because they trusted in people like Alexis Ohanian, founder of Red unscathed despite the horrifying things that Reddit has done. Alex Ohenian insanely rich, married to a tennis star,

God bless him. Oh they're happy. But nevertheless, Alexis has managed to fairly easily escape all blame for the fact that he misled everyone with this and other things. But this in particular because the dream of doodles. God that sucks to say out loud, by the way, the dream of doodles was that you would buying one of these ten thousand things, and that you'd be part of a community and you'd be able to steer the doodle's movement.

Speaker 11

The doodles community is christ I know, the doodles revolution I think is more more accurate.

Speaker 7

And the doodles no, that's not term no, no, no, I like that.

Speaker 2

I like that this.

Speaker 3

Dood least as doodlers. They're all the doodoos.

Speaker 2

Yeah, but you would be.

Speaker 3

Investing in the future VIP, you'd have part of this and you'd be you know what, put aside the money, put aside all the cash, because they're not doing speculation anymore. It's not about that. Let's just focus on the community, which is dying, which is completely dead, I would argue. So fairly recently, Doodles had to remove the fifty quorum, which would require fifty percent of NFT holders to interact

with the project to push a vote through. They had to remove that in say why they had to remove it, and I guess because nobody gives a shit, because nobody cares, nobody gives a rap fuck about any of this, and then voted to appoint a founding Community Council to make decisions about where the doodle bank, oh my god, Jesus christis would be would be spent in the future. So the doodle bank was where some of the revenues went from the secondary sales of these NFTs, because the companies

always take a cart because let's seeking baby anyway. So if you were interested in the community aspect of Doodles, you're kind of shit out luck because they've now entirely deleted their Visions and Guidelines document, which is the part of the website that tells you how any of the community shit works, and they nothing is happening right now with them. There's nothing going on. This is the ninth most popular NFT project, and they have attempted to and

indeed succeeded in removing their association with NFTs. Now one would think, okay, maybe they have a discord. Of course they did find it eighty five thousand members, oh wow, except it felt more empty than my discord, which has six hundred people in it eight seven hundred and sixty

members as of when I opened it last. And the newest stands section did not have a post in it since August thirtieth, which was announcing that the Doodle's Crops collaboration had sold out, terrible news to the least buckable people alive, and their other official channels really hadn't been updated since mayor August. The General Hall channel, which is where everyone was talking, was mostly just bots and people's saying the words Dude's rule, that's dods rule. No real communication.

It felt like several chat bots kind of what you know, how you see Oblivion or Skyrim MPC's walk up to the other Yeah, kand greetings to you. Imagine that with NFT's eighty five thousand bloody people. I even tried to I'm not going to say antagonize them, but I did ask them, are you happy with your investment? No responses. I was like, how'd you feel about? No response? Someone responded with Dude's rule once and it's insane because you

won't believe this. The valuation of this company in their fifty four million dollar funding round was seven hundred million goddann dollars, and their chatroom as the charm and vibrance of a dying more. This is meant to be the next generation of Disney, and yet it has no fans.

Speaker 7

There are people who will shoot.

Speaker 3

You to death for insulting Spider Man. There are people who will scream at you for not liking the latest Star Wars thing. These are superfans. Yeah, there are people who will do that with obscure video games you've never heard of. But for Doodles, this barly billion dollar enterprise, the future of Disney. Not one of these people cared anything about this. All it was there's like, there are no superfans no loyalists, no evangelist, nobody excited, no one

even expressing an emotion. Just a bunch of freaks who got con saying GM every two minutes or hours. Actually, it was so strange because I've been in chatrooms since it was like eleven. I've seen varying levels of chat rooms in various games. Even the smallest community was kind of hopping at some point. This then had no life.

Speaker 7

It was so strange. It's just like a digital ghost town.

Speaker 3

And the reality is what I said earlier. There's ten thousand of these goddamn things, these featureless, procedurally generated things. There's nothing to them. These NFT companies, these ones that allegedly want to replace Disney, they're incapable or unwilling to do anything approximating world building or law development. Lore Doodles, which is worth seven hundred million goddamn dollars, which got fifty four million dollars, has three characters that I can find.

There's hap Is cap Mellow, and there was another one which I could not find a name for. There is maybe ten minutes of footage in the years that this thing is meant to exist. It's just so bizarre. It's so utterly craven and half fast. It's people attack Disney and Marvel through Disney obviously in Star Wars that oh they're just ah, they're pushing this crap out, They're just churning this shit out and saying people are buy anything. In comparison, Disney are steadfast or teurs. They are creative

agents like likened to Salvador Dally. They are the compared to the NFT people, they're gods. Because even Disney's least likable properties get more attention and have bigger fans than this. There are Disney adults who would like crying and falling on their knees when the lockdowns ended. Oh yeah, now

these people would care. Now these people of Jordan, Poopy Castro died tomorrow, nobody would shed a tear or even remember, apparently, And it's just I think the way to look at this, and especially Doodles, is that there is just within the NFT world and actually within the tech industry, writt large just this deep deep seated loathing for creativity, storytelling and the customer Pendleton Ward who made the original avengue time don't if you remember, which is very clearly where Doodles

is ripped off from Just compare them. They look very similar. He made it over a decade ago. It's a five minute long video. He made it on his own, without funding, without anything, and it's beautiful and it's weird and it's great, and you're like, Wow, I'm so glad this guy did this. Doodles, which has tens of millions of dollars sitting around, has put out seven goddamn minutes of teasers and advertisements for brand collaborations. That's it.

Speaker 7

That's all.

Speaker 3

Something about Pharrell, something about Crocs, something about allegedly Doodles having a cartoon. I don't goddamn know, but my theory is that none of this was ever about creating anything. This was an attempt to go back to what you were saying earlier, to recreate that sense that I just bought the Star Wars toy that will be worth three thousand dollars and ten years.

Speaker 2

That's all.

Speaker 11

This works well, and I'm pretty sure they're well on their way, because I'm looking at the Doodle site right now. You can buy a rug featuring my favorite Doodles character hap for one hundred dollars.

Speaker 3

So are you serious that these not the focus is selling a rug.

Speaker 11

Yes, yes, the crops are sold out. Unfortunately, I know, I know you were really wanted to get those.

Speaker 7

They're sold out. They were one hundred and twenty bucks.

Speaker 11

They're selling. They're selling little Vinyl toys for one hundred and eighty five dollars. They have a cat mush, they have a cat plush for forty bucks, they have a puzzle for twenty two dollars, and they finally have the before mentioned rug.

Speaker 3

So yeah, it's it's just wonderful.

Speaker 11

It seems like a good investment. These things are selling out fast. You want to, you gotta, you gotta get in. Your character is gonna be the next one?

Speaker 7

Yeah.

Speaker 3

But I think that the ultimate thing is none of this was about creating anything that really is it. It was creating just enough to sell securities, the suckers, and now all of it is falling apart. The SEC just sued a group of celebrities for an NFT cat cartoon called Stoner Cats.

Speaker 2

Yeah. No, I was really excited about Stoner Cat.

Speaker 3

I was really pumped up for seeing Stoner Cats. But sadly the SEC changed the creator for unregistered offering of NFTs, which are securities, and they raised eight million dollars. It's just very sad, very funny by the way that the SEC now was to get in like Garyginsters, to look at stoner cats and say all right, let's let's take a look at this, or that's not good. How a test is going to have fun with this? But I think NFTs were and are probably one of the more

nihilistic parts of the tech industry. Yeah, because they did the bare minimum to convince people. They made up all of It's kind of like that episode of The Simpsons where they remake Flanders's house and it's just a facier and it effectively falls poster. Yeah, yes, exactly, and it's just enough to make people believe this could be worth enough, because it's never really obvious what actually makes something worth something.

In the collectible's market, there are established artists whom I personally own a bunch of original comic artwork, a lot of it by Arthur Adams, and that market is fairly small because there's only so much one man can do, and the value comes from what people are willing to pay. But in that case, it's beautiful pencils and inks and it's gorgeously you want on your wall. In this case, it's I'm buying something that sounds like it might be valuable.

There's not really a fundamental community that sounds fine, but when you push past even the first layer, it all falls apart. And that's because, in my opinion, the NFT hype was just a long come on customers in the media. It's a scam, a scam where companies built the appearance of value without but actually generating anything. There's nothing to old some vinyl figures. Who cares. Nobody's done. The boord Ape Yacht Club has the world's shittiest cartoon. They did a flash game called Dookie Dash.

Speaker 7

Yes I did, I did see Dookie Dash.

Speaker 3

What was great was.

Speaker 7

Game of the Year twenty twenty two.

Speaker 3

Game of the Year twenty twenty two. Immediately, by the way, scammed, just immediately someone broke it and they had to like they were like, what, how did this happen? But that's the thing, you go, Labs worth a couple billion dollars, Doodle's worth seven hundred million, nothing to them, not a

single interesting idea in any of them. But they existed to con people into believing this completely thin view it and also the nihilistic part is it was talking about people collecting art and collecting creative things without actually ever seeing the value in the object. The objects creativity was only as valuable as it was sellable, but not even sellable to an enterprise. It was just like to another person who could continue the chain of shit.

Speaker 11

I think there is a large untapped market for this though, that Doodles is actually trying to exploit, because I just found probably one of the most upsetic things I've discovered today, which is saying something because I've seen a lot of a lot of best stuff today, today's footage, a lot of workime footage is But there is a Doodle's immersive

experience in Chicago for children. Oh No, children create their own Doodles and you can pay twenty eight dollars per person to spend an hour in this Doodles themed art installation in Chicago. I'm looking at I'm looking at the availability there is.

Speaker 2

Yeah, looks like we can book one for the team.

Speaker 7

There is ten slots open each day.

Speaker 11

All the slots are open tomorrow, so I think we should get a flight like tonight.

Speaker 2

Yeah, right now, I want to book this asap.

Speaker 3

Yeah, that's gonna sound I'm gonna send you this like because it's the most one of the more disturbing things I've found. I don't want to go to the Doodles camp.

Speaker 15

Every It's twenty twenty eight dollars per kid for one hour of walking in this one Doodles themed room where first your kid creates a Doodle's character so you can enter doodle World.

Speaker 11

You go through a rainbow portal, you slide down rainbows, play in puffy clouds, and crash a spaceship, and then you romp through a limpsical world until your hours up, and then you leave after spetting twenty eight dollars per child.

Speaker 1

It's like if a committee designed fucking U Meal wolf right. Yeah, yeah, it's it's a committee of people on thorazine.

Speaker 3

But if you watch this video, is well of this Doodle's world. Here's the thing. You don't see anything of anything, there's none. There's a picture of the guy who I've already forgotten the name of Hop.

Speaker 7

I can't believe forgot Hop's name.

Speaker 3

I can't believe I've forgot Hop.

Speaker 11

But one and eighty five dollars to get a figure you have to remember.

Speaker 3

God damn it. And but that's that's the thing. This is just it's a masterpiece of emptiness. It is a meaningless thing. There is nothing to doodles, no.

Speaker 7

It's it's it's vapid, there's nothing to any of it.

Speaker 3

And NFT investors was sold this dream of kind of an access to wealth or for both sides that like, oh, the artist will make money because every NFT sale you get some royalty, some residuals, which theoretically is a cool thing that when an artist has a piece sold on someone else. I like that idea I always have. And in turn, by buying into this quote unquote art, you can generate your own wealth and you can be part of this positive chain where everyone wins. But you're also

early so you get to feel smart. Except the problem is that you're more than likely left with a worthless piece of shit. You're left with nothing. So fundamentally there will be and I don't believe more than a couple thousand people made any money on NFTs. Now, the majority of the people who bought NFTs are going to be left in the red, and every new entrant is just another sucker to hopefully dump an investment onto. Because there are no NFTs that have a fundamental value. There's not one.

It's not like No, it's that Disney, Marvel, none of these major things. Notice that none of them got involved. They didn't want to fucking touch as DC did a vague idea of buying comic covers, but even then it was half us because why why would you do it. I've been saying this since twenty twenty one, that these things had no value, that it was just an attempt to sell people this vague sense of participation in a

new economy. And in fact, there was a study that came out an analysis of seventy three two hundred and fifty seven NFT collections. Ninety five percent of NFTs on the market are now totally worthless. The value of these collections is zero ethereum. Almost every single person encouraged to invest them by The New York Times, by CNBC is a victim of a massive legal fraud peddled by Internet

charlatans like Alexishenian. I'm not saying he's one of them, but there are people within the NFT industry who also washtrade these things, which means that they effectively sell them to themselves. And there's actually increasingly impressive research that suggests that most NFT set were just washtrading, just people pumping and pumping and pumping. That's why justin Bieber's ape that he blet for one point three million dollars is worth

about sixty grand. Now he'll be fine, but other people won't. And that's what's really anger inducing. That's what fills my veins full of poison. And if these were never worth anything, and the majority of the industry is made up of fake goddamn transactions, and the people who will suffer on the majority, and the majority are not rich, the majority are not anything other than desperate people who were manipulated.

Speaker 1

It's like with fucking the FTX collapse, which is funny in a lot of ways, but also one of the big bag holders wound up being like a teacher's pension fund. Like that was massive, and obviously I think that like an addition to going after sam people, regulators should be looking at who the fuck made the call to put people's pension money in fucking brain genius kids gambling din But it is like there is like real harmed it

and that was like always the plan. Everyone who was involved in pushing this is was trying to, Like the whole game plan was create this critical mass of hype that broke people's ability to actually analyze what they were doing.

That just kind of made them panic and throw money in because they felt like otherwise they were going to miss out on their chance to retire, right That was the whole thing, and that's why, like the entire social media hype around this was all based on you're going to stay poor forever if you don't get in on this right now, Like it's so disgusting, and yeah, just evil, evil people.

Speaker 3

And they were never a great investment. They were never in the future of IP. They're just a vehicle to extract capital from retail investors, from regular people who to your point earlier, who didn't invest in Apple earlier, oh Google early, they didn't get the chance, they didn't buy the Star Wars toy. So this was their chance to get ahead. And if these are just an exploitative scam, they create just enough it's a true scam as well. They create just enough to get people in the door

and just enough to make that investment defensible. They and it honestly shared a lot of the language of the Joe Oldsteins and conspiracy theorists and other teller evangelists telling people to your point that oh, you're not gonna make it, Oh have fun staying poor. What a noxious fucking thing to say, What a disgusting thing to say to someone.

And what's funny is they use the other scam that some companies in the tech industry used FDx, for example, where they would raise rounds a venture capital which gave the appearance of a real enterprise where things were actually happening, and then they sold them this dream of oh, you could own a piece of this, despite the fact that not a single goddamn NFT actually granted stock options, voting rights, or anything else because if they did that, it would

immediately become a security, so they'd never do that. You don't have consequential votes. You don't have any industry over this industry. You just have a thing that can be It may not be fungible, but the operating environment for it is absolutely fucking fungible. If doodles was truly not fungible, they wouldn't be able to change the doodle's quorum.

Speaker 2

They would just have to.

Speaker 3

Sit there and do nothing. But what's also important to realize, and as I've said before, but I'll say it a goddamn again, is they really didn't try very hard. The board ape Yarch Club, which is the biggest one the ten thousand horrifying looking apes owned by a company called Yuga Labs. They were valued at four billion dollars in twenty twenty two. Despite the fact that they said they were going to go Hollywood, they've not actually created anything.

They They said they were going to do a metaverse product. They sold NFTs of this metaverse thing that they've never shown, called other Side. I believe. Yeah, it crashed.

Speaker 1

Ethereu, but they have not the video game where you travel through a toilet looking for poop, Dookie Dash.

Speaker 2

Yeah, this is the new Disney everyone, This is it.

Speaker 3

This is the new Disney. It's the metaverse that will never get built. It's the cartoon about monkeys and toilets that actually advertise Dookie Dash. The rich, deep lore of the bored A Yacht Club, by the way, is that a monkey did a poo so bad that a key

came out to another dimension. But then the monkey somehow put that key in a beer that the monkey drank, and then the monkey did another poo where it put it into the sewer pipes, thus making it necessary for you to pilot another monkey to go and get the key. Very fucking stupid, very bad, ugly, like the designs suck. That's the other thing. These aren't even good looking. And this is a company worth.

Speaker 16

Four billion dollars, four billion dollars, and all they've done is not make a metaverse, but make a lot of money, make a terrible he is looking of cartoons that may or may not go anywhere, and an Ebulum's World clone that.

Speaker 3

Got scammed almost immediately. Someone found a way to exploit it immediately because it's a flash game. These are not creative enterprises. These are not entertainment companies. They're shell corporations for ill godden revenues for secondary market sales of ten thousand bullshit pictures that were hyped up by the media who could not analyze it properly. They just saw the large amounts of money that were being made, the crooked ways, by the way, the ones which were clearly pumped everyone

covered them. World of Woman. Do you remember that one World of Woman? The NFT That was my favorite one because there were so many guys in the crypto world who like Yeah, I bought a world of woman entity. I support woman. That's I love it. No, it's so good,

And it's because all of it's exploitative. NFTs are vehicles to exploit people, particularly Americans, who so desperate and fairly questioning their place in the world that is continually turned upon providing basic social services and the ability for its citizens to thrive. There are a few honest ways for the average person to accumulate wealth anymore. It's nearly impossible

to buy a house. Returns on the market suck. Market's already confusing, And yeah, all of that's quickly outpaced by the fact that you have student loans, health insurance, and inflation is making things more expensive than ever. And I would argue that that is really the root of what's so evil about crypto.

Speaker 7

Yeah, it's inherently exploitative.

Speaker 3

It is inherently linked in all of these ways to religious dogma that you're buying into something that you're finally part of, something meaningful, something that will grow, something that will make you whole in a way that your predecessors might have been just through living normally. This industry it took root because most people can't thrive. Everyone has to hustle. Everyone has to struggle. You can't do the things that people even twenty years ago could. You can't work a

normal job and buy a house anymore. You can't get a mortgage. In many cases, you can't just go to college and probably pay those loans off in five years. God no, that shit's going to follow you decades and nobody's helping you. And then along comes these Along comes this very technological, cool sounding, non fungible token, this thing where oh, I could be part of this new art market.

I can be the smart one for once. I could be ahead of everyone, and the people on the other side of that transaction are telling you everything you want to hear. Then the next Disney, then the next Marvel. You're gonna be part of something. You're gonna make it. That's what you'll do if you buy into this. All of those crypto people are totally fine, all of them, the Winklevosses like Sohanian Mack Andresen Christi, they're all doing great.

They are multi millionaires several times over. The people on the other side are victims, victims of what I would argue any just society would decide was a financial crime. And I think that every single venture capitalist who put money into these products and who pumped them should be held accountable. They won't because that is the modern tech industry, because that is the modern government. There is no justice for the victims of NFTs. And it's really horrifying to watch.

Speaker 5

Yeah.

Speaker 11

I know, sometimes it can be hard to be sympathetic for these folks because we imagine them being like, you know, freedra Reddit, you know, chriacters. But I think if you have the capacity to feel sympathetic to like former cult members, this is kind of the same thing. This is like, this is it's really the same process and a big part of actually beating cults is the ability to be

sympathetic to former cult members. That it's actually like a crucial part of getting people to like get past this sort of thing.

Speaker 1

Yeah, and that's that's going to include not just the innocent, but some people who did some pretty ugly things. And yeah, I think that's and that's hard critical.

Speaker 3

Yeah, And I always try and push people to think of that because it is very easy, to your point to look at the fedoras, to look at the wag me guys, we're going to make it people and say these are the majority. I would argue most people, and I'll say this haven't been in too many telegrams of too many rug pulled projects just watching the vast majority of people are desperate. They just want their investment to turn. They just want something because there really isn't much way

out for most people. There really isn't. Most people get lucky, and that's how they live what used to be, what used to be just like the general purpose good life, two point four children, house, white picket fans just doesn't happen for anyone anymore. And you're left with this. In a society where that happens, where there's so there are so few opportunities to thrive for people, you get things like this, you get these massive cons and I think that it will be hard for this to take root again.

I don't think cryptos unscrewing people. I think that they will find a way to pump this in the future.

Speaker 1

Yeah, which is why you should buy our new cool Zone coin, you know, for just the price of forty five dollars a coin you can ape in and we're recommending right now just kind of transferring your whole four oh one k over into cool Zone coins, which which you can do by just sending it to our mailing address in the form of a check. Well, we'll get your coins to you.

Speaker 3

Don't worry, no problem, I will personally take care.

Speaker 2

Well.

Speaker 1

Ed, thank you so much for putting this together. I think it's important to kind of look at this sort of stuff in retrospect, especially as the next con builds up scheme. You know, interest rates will drop eventually and then there will be another attempt to fleece large numbers of people, possibly using Larry David, although he may have learned this lesson this time. Ed, do you want to give the people some some notes on where they can find you if they want to read your stuff?

Speaker 3

You can find letters your ed dot at that's my newsletter, where's your red app? And you can find me on Twitter or x the Everything app or rate. My newstop business will be called soon at ed Zitron. I'm also on blue Sky. You find me a zitron, C I, t R O N.

Speaker 1

Well, check ed out any of those places and check us out here. You already found us once, so presumably you will not forget how to find us the second time until next time. You know, don't invest money in unregistered securities. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe.

Speaker 14

It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.

Speaker 3

For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 14

You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.

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