Hey, everybody wanna welcome you again to the before you quit podcasts where we wanna bring encourage and perspective... Serving gets hard. And man doesn't it get hard sometimes, that is why we do what we do on these podcast episodes. My name is Mitch Schultz. I'm your host. I'm also the director of a ministry called Fruitful wine Ministry. Okay. Today, Dan S, my c host and I are gonna continue our conversational in critique of Doctor Rob Rem Sol care Ministry.
This will be episode number 2. We'll probably be putting out 2 more episodes in but let me go ahead and jump into that now. Alright. We are on episode number 2 and our review of... Doctor Rob Soul care teaching and ministry. Dan S. Good morning. My c host. How are you this morning. Good morning, Mitch. I'm doing well. Thanks. Well, we are gonna dive into the content of the book soul care by Doctor. Re, and we we're we're really fascinated with the response at this point, Dan.
We had posted this on the Christian missionary airlines Facebook page and certainly got a lot of traction, a lot of listeners, I shared with you with the 3. We put up 3 different posts, this podcast, a paper I wrote, a paper that Mark Barn wrote on on demon possession, we're gonna clarify that a little bit because I feel like that's, an area of some confusion but the the Facebook posts were removed, by the administrator, later someone,
posted a challenge asking why. We've not heard yet, you know, any any reasoning for that, but, the administrator wrote me or I wrote him personally, and just said there was too much reaction to this, which I I thanked him for the brief opportunity we had to put out our content. But really interesting, how do you how do you respond to that? What's your take on that? Because I
think it says a lot about difficulty. And, you know, just counter, bringing up a different, you know, approach or position the certain teachings within our denomination or within the church as a whole. Yeah. I I would say that I wasn't surprised but I was definitely disappointed. And it it comes... What it comes back to is... There's not really room for a dissent voice within the C. And I've encountered that before. I know you have others have...
And and it's really troubling because if if this teaching, if soul care is biblical, then it's going to stand up to any sort of critique. We offer somebody else offers So you you want people to dig deeper into the scriptures. And and when you just kinda d platform, some articles and the podcast, then you're saying, you know, we don't even want it. We don't want any dissent voice. And, I guess my question is, you know, what are they afraid of? What are they worried about if
if this is... If this teaching is biblical, there should be nothing, to be worried about. Nothing to be afraid of. So it's... Yeah. I I guess I'd summarize that by saying, I was disappointed, but not surprised. Yeah. And in the first podcast, we laid out a biblical reason for this, the discernment is a biblical call that we are meant.
To, evaluate what's being said in the in the name of God and compare to what is said in the word of God, and we have some issues there that this teaching, the does not seem to be consistent with the word of God. And and I made the statements, and this is the correct way to put it that we're... We are to listen to every thing with a closed mind and an open bible. And once we like the b. Once they agree, like, we're gonna be suspicious of this,
but let's see what the bible says. And the bible affirm it, then, yes, we are in agreement with it. So, we don't need need to repeat the you know, those reasons for... For why we're doing this. I had a family member really criticized me for rather strongly for for you know, she she didn't have an issue with me doing this, but mentioning someone's name.
And once I helped her understand that this is a public ministry and also the leadership, whatever leadership exists over, anyone who's a teacher is not doing their job and, you know, cri and calling people to to to truth and to either caution or discipline when there is lack of truth or even a false teaching, that leaves us to us as, either, members of the constituency or listeners to to respond. So I guess what I'm saying there is 1 of the leadership not doing
their job, then someone will... Step in and say, hey, wait a minute. Why are we allowing this to be taught? And why are you not doing your job as the authority and I guess, the reason for that is because they they agree with it. I think that would be our our consensus. You wanted to make some clarity about the whole demon possession versus occupation too before we jump into the content here. Yeah. I I think there was a couple, people who responded and and said, hey, doctor.
Re doesn't teach demon possession. He teaches, demon digitization. And let me just... Or or occupation or in the 2 words that people were saying that is actually being taught. Yeah. And so from, chapter 7 or Soul care principal number 7, Here's what he writes. I do not use the word demon possession that implies ownership and Christians cannot be owned. We have been created by God. And bought for a price by the blood of Christ. We belong to God the ownership issue is
settled. So to that, we we say amen, you know, we're in full agreement with that. But here's the very next line. So I don't think possession is an accurate translation. I prefer to you as the word demon immunization, which describes demonic influence. I do believe listen this. I do believe that Christians can be afflicted with various degrees of demon digitization, and I think in some cases the only way to get them free is through deliverance or a power encounter.
Therefore in short, I do believe Christians can have ind dwelling demons and need deliverance. So that's where it gets confusing. This is where it's... It it becomes about semantics. Because when you're talking about... Somebody who has ind dwelling demons, that kinda sounds like demon possession. And so I I feel like there's a a real lack of clarity. And and when you look at his approach, when you when you look at Doctor Rob Re, and how he approaches someone who seemingly would have a demon.
It's... It's just like in the Bible, he's approaching it that same way, as if they are possessed. Whatever the case, He does believe that that you can have ind dwelling demons. So demon possession, ind dwelling, it it kind of amounts to the same thing. Far as I'm concerned.
Yeah. And that's where again, I think I mentioned this in the first podcast that we reached out to him to let him know we were doing this and as heard an opportunity to do a a follow up podcast, but he he did not wanna do that. We'll be saying a lot more about this for sole idea of demon immunization, demon possession and dwelling occupation, probably in a separate podcast. Or there's a potential here that will be doing 3 or 4 podcasts. But yeah. So so, Dan, you and I agreed
when we... Before we hit re... Not to review what Sol care is. However, maybe we need to say something here because the 7 principles that we're gonna be looking at or unpacking, and I think we'll just talk about 3 or 4 of them today. They're they're meant to at kind of teach us how to be set free, out to be released, he refers to the sold like a suitcase that gets Mh.
Gunk, you know, the experiences of life, trauma, sands, wounds, those things kind of pile up in our soul and they create you, a unhealthy behavior, unhealthy view of of ourselves, which is the, you know, the identity piece. So can you give maybe just a real brief description of what these 7 principles are meant to accomplish. Sure. Yeah. So the first 4 that we're going to cover today, are securing your identity. So he starts with the whole identity issue.
I think that's a good place to to begin, that's a natural place. Then he moves on to repentance and talks about rep repentance, the third chapter. The third principle is family sin patterns. So he looks at at some of the influence that that your family of origin may have had on you. And then chapter 4 is forgiveness. So those are what we're going to cover today.
Principle number 5 is healing wounds, talking about some of the the the wounded that we experience as Christians, how healing takes place, chapter 6 is overcoming fears. And then finally, this is the most important chapter. And that is deliverance. And that's where he gets into the the whole. So so each of these areas are impediments, to being healthy. These these are the ways to be on stock to be set free. And so we're we're gonna go through each 1. We're gonna start with securing your
identity here. Mh. And there's a lot that we agree with here. Again, we mentioned last time, there's just a lot of really good stuff here. Start, but I think we need to understand what it means to to have our identity in christ. I think the, you know, you and I, talk a little bit before this that are, you know, what what price has done for us and and justification, righteousness and san justification,
has kinda sealed that identity. You know, we know who we are in Christ, so what does what does Re say about the identity piece that is is critical to being set free. And then let's talk about what our true identity is, and and, again, just again, biblical how that's so important and you know, especially in understanding what the role of scripture is and and describing who we are, and us just believing that by faith, You know?
Yeah. Yeah. Well, as you said, Mitch, how we view ourselves our identity is hugely important. So as I said, I I think it's really important. This is this is a a foundational aspect. And the Bible tells us, that it's not what we do. It's not our job. It's not our success. It's not how much money we have. It's not how loved we are by our... Family or friends, people in the world, that's not what it's about. Our identity as as Christians, is secure in Christ.
And and so I think Green does a pretty good job of of capturing that. Here's what's lacking here here's what what you don't see so much in this chapter, this principle is our core identity as human beings is ruined by sin. So that that's the the the big thing that that's lacking. We we could turn to all kinds of passages in the Bible, Romans 3, for example says that no 1... Is righteous, no 1 at all. And and so that issue of our sin nature, it seems to be lacking.
It... In fact, it it... I'm gonna go so far as to say it is lacking. Because why do we need Jesus? You know, why why would we say our identity is rooted and grounded in Christ. When a lot of people even those in the church, don't really see themselves as that bad. They don't see that their whole nature is being ruined and corrupted by sin. So I I think that's 1 of the the major deficiencies. Yeah. That that's a really
good point... That's really a good point. That we don't even in a lot of preaching, you know, that it... It's to build you up that... I mean, people will even say that you you wanna know how much God loves you You wanna know how valuable he is. He died for you. You would not die for someone who is so valuable. But in truth, Christ Died, because we're sinner, and and the wrath of God was meant
to be upon us. It was placed on his son I I think it's it's missing the point when we say that, you know, we are so valuable to God, man, he was really willing to risk his place and having... Come here to Earth to to rescue us. Let me read a couple things he says, and then let's unpack that. He says, well, you believe about yourself is the foundations to your life. I always spoke A To who says that what you believe about God, is the most important thing about you. Yes.
So I don't know if it's a good place to start by saying what you believe you're about yourself is foundation. Your life will come to that. It's your identity he says, and a faulty foundation will create f in the soul If you're gonna construct a healthy life and begin with what you believe about yourself. Dan, when I... Again, this is a call to look inward, we talked about this the last...
Podcast it. You know, the whole they'll you know, approach that is eventually used to help you heal is to, you know, kinda meditate you know, using kind of a mist mystical third of approach to to healing, it scares me when I look in myself, If I don't like what I see when
I look at myself. I I look at myself, and and I see a sinner, but then I'm reminded, I'm appointed, the holy spirit of points me to the gospel and reminds me that my position is in Christ and to him in legal sense, and this is what nation by faith is. God has declared us to be right in God. And if I wanna know my identity, ephesians want talks about over and over again, how we are in Christ.
And I love C chapter 1 and 2, you know, the set your hearts and minds on things above, not earthly things for you have died and your life is hidden with God in Christ. And then he says this, set san simplification is the process of becoming life Jesus. That's true, is simply becoming who you really are. And... And I get what he's saying there that, you know, becoming who God has declared you to be. But then he says in god's presence, who you are in Christ is revealed to you.
Your your thoughts on that, particularly that phrase in Yeah. Well, yeah. So there's there's some good things there, but the the foundation is is faulty. We would argue. So you must start with God. You have to start with the h of God, and you... Just as you were talking there, Mitch, maybe me think of I... Isaiah. When Isaiah had kind of like his call to ministry in chapter 6, he had this vision this encounter of God, and he saw god in all his h. And what was his response? He he could
I'm ruined. Yeah. So he could see himself a aright. So it starts with God. You see God in his glory in his h. And then we see ourselves a right. And so he said, what was me? I'm ruined of a man of un clean lips I'd well in the midst of of a people of un clean lips. And so if if we're going to see ourselves right, then we need to see God right. And so that's... God is always... The starting point, the foundation, that's kind of the launch pad.
So I I wanted to mention that, And in doing so, I forgot what your question was. So so take me back to what you were asking. Took I I'd I don't remember, but you're on a good flow here. Once you why you comment on some of the things that you wrote, you you quote page 37 to really understand your identity have to properly divide soul and spirit, and you have some great thoughts in response to that. Yeah. So so that's another core element for soul care is the division of soul and spirit.
And so the the spirit... Well, that's we're in Christ, where we we have the holy spirit. That's clean, but our soul is messy. And it it's filled with with all that soul sludge. And so we need to free ourselves of that. Now let let me just say that that there's not not exactly consensus within the Christian world, that we are... That we should divide soul and spirit. A lot of people would say that that who we are as as human beings is body and soul. There's kind of that that duality there.
Doctor Rob Bree would say that, no, we're tri If if if that's the right phrase. And so we're body soul and spirit. The the danger, you start to divide soul and spirit is, well, it's inn. You can go in all kinds of different directions. And I... Sometimes I feel like he does. But it it kind of it it it gives him that that freedom, to say that your spirit's is good, your spirit is, where it needs to be in Christ, but your soul is what what needs the care and what needs healing.
Let me go back to the the whole identity part. Here's another quote from chapter 1 or principle 1. He writes on the cross, the father said to you and me you are of infinite worth to me. I declare you to be worthy. Of my son's blood. Now think about that, probably a lot of people are are going to amen that, but are we truly worthy of the sun's blood? I would I would say no, what while we do need to find our identity in Christ, and we do have great value in him, we're not worthy.
Of the shed blood of christ. Only Christ is worthy. We are un, and that's where we get the the teaching of grace. You know, God gives us what we do not deserve. We don't merit salvation. We don't... You know, Jesus was not obligated to to die on the cross to shed his blood for us. So, To me, this is yet another example of Re elevating man and and diminishing the work of the atonement.
Yeah. He... This is from ephesians to us think about this when you were talking, it describes us being dead in our sins in verse lung used to walk and, you know, fall the course of this world, etcetera, we live in the passions there are flash. So this is all who we were before Christ died for us carrying out the desires of the body and the mind. We were by nature. This is this is who Christ
died for. We're by nature, children of wrath like the rest a mankind, but god being rich and mercy because of his great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our things made us alive together with price. You know, our value is given to us things by price, his value is imp to us. You know, when God looks at us, he sees price. He sees the value of his side who who died for W sinner, you know, at amazing grace, who saved the re like knee,
but then why is that important? I mean, people might say, hey, we're qui w over, you know, phrases and what why why does that matter? Because it does affect how we preach, You know, how we preach the gospel. Either we either preach that we're good and we can be better or that we're bad and Jesus is better and how he he gave us his righteous and this Why why does this really matter when we talk about the our identity?
Yeah. Because if if you don't see yourself, as as ruined and corrupted in sin, and and really evil, and that it says that in scripture in places. Then we're not gonna run to Christ. We're not going to see him as as that beautiful mer savior, who will alone can provide atonement and forgiveness of sin. So we need to, we need to see ourselves for who we
are, and and here's another verse. Like like we said, there's so many, but Mark 07:21, from within out of the heart of man come evil thoughts, sexual immoral, theft, murder adultery cove wicked to seat, sensuality, envy nbc s or, pride, foolish all these evil things come from within and they def file a person. So it's not a pretty picture. That's what we find within, and it's only in Christ that we find true h. And so it's when you know who you are, then that that makes grace
so amazing. You know, why why would God save me when when that's what's within me. It just got people might say though that the people might say yes, but when you come to Christ and and you're now believer your identity has changed. How how does it still... Why does this still matter for us to see ourselves as centers, he but saved by brakes. I mean, what... What's the what's the... Because he is writing this 2 believers.
Right. Who are who are struggling with... And we can talk a little bit about the whole being victim and who's to blame. But but why why is this still relevant to people who are believers? Yeah. So it's it's the difference between justification and san justification. So in in our just... Vacation, we are declared, not guilty. You know, God took upon himself, through Christ, all of our sins. And now we're forgiven and and we're freed. We're we're we're justified.
We're given the righteousness of Jesus, we we have his perfect righteousness. At the same time, we still have this flesh nature. That's so annoying and and it... It's such a hard battle, but it's critical. Darn suitcase leak carry around with us. The suitcase. Yeah. We we So that's san vacation. That san vacation, and and that is working out our salvation. That is putting on christ.
And so I I would whereas Re would would use the the language more of empty the suitcase so that you it can be filled with something else. I would say, let's just use the the language of scripture. And and the language of scripture is simply to to put off. Put off all that is old within you, all that that nastiness that's in the heart and put on Christ, so I... Let let's... If we're gonna use analog, let's use the ones that we find in scripture. Put off, put on. Yeah. I love that. I love that.
And and then when we when we find ourselves still sending, we're reminded... Of what crisis has done for us that were in him, and we repent, and we go back to believing what has been said about us the question that I asked you you forgot what the question was was, the phrasing God's presence, who you are in Christ is revealed to you. And and I would I would say it's not in god's presence that you... Who you are in Christ revealed to you. It's through scripture.
It's it's by believing scripture, what scripture says about you. What it says about Christ, what it says about you. So now that's what I was asking to respond to? And and I think it's true that a lot of times we we struggle to believe. That God has forgiven us. But God does not lie. And and so if He says as far as the east is from the West. That's how far I've removed your, we need to believe that. We need to
trust as promises. And so we don't need some, you know, mystical experience, and these kinds of things are given in the book. Some mystical experience where we see Jesus and and he's telling us that he forgive us and that he's healed us. We don't need that. We just need to to believe what God has already declared in his word. So the word is sufficient. We don't need visions. We just need to to trust that what God says is true and that we truly are.
Why does the phrase accessing the presence of the spirit to make you nervous or causes you pause? Well, it... Because that can mean a a whole lot of different things to different people, and and it kind of it it smack more of a feeling or or seeing something rather than just believing. Yeah. Experiencing something. Yeah. That's a really good point. So instead of, we walk by faith, and not by sight, it's almost like Rob Re wants us to walk by sight and not by faith.
He wants us to see he wants us to experience it rather than just believe it and and trust the sufficiency of God's word. Yeah. I love the the ham where it says it is enough that Jesus died and that he died for me. And and and that that brings me joy. That brings me he that brings me happiness to know that I I am forgiven. And when I send, hey. It comes from within me still. I live in this flesh body that continues to sin.
I'm appointed by the holy spirit. It's more that the holy spirit has access to me, not I have access to him, but he points me to the scripture reminds me. Of a Christ has done for me. It's like in John 14 26, He will teach you all things and bring to remembrance what I have told you And I was actually gonna say some, you know, quote that verse in the the next part of repentance. Alright. We you feel like we've... Set enough about identity and move on now to repentance.
Yeah. Yep. Alright. Good I'll let you start. Sure. So we would start off by saying that there's also some some really good material in... This chapter on repentance, things that we can affirm, particularly at the start of the chapter, but ultimately, just like chapter 1, it falls short. And in many ways, it's more psychological than it is. Biblical or spiritual. It's kinda like bible plus, and that's a consistent problem throughout but we would... I I think it's important to unpack what exactly
biblical repentance is. So may maybe Mitch, you could run us through what exactly in a nutshell, the bible teaches on repentance. Yeah. Repentance and and we can go to acts chapter 2 where the... Disciples are preaching. Peter's preaching, and he's preaching the clear message of the gospel. Who Jesus is, what he came to do. He was the 1 who was promised in the old testament. And then he condemns them. He points to them, and and and basically says you are the
ones who killed them. So, again, that kind of challenges the sole notion of how... You know, Christ died because we're so valuable. It's like, no, We're responsible for his death. Yeah. And And, yeah. I well, I would say that in a nutshell, biblical repentance involves turning away from sin. So they... In acts chapter 2, that was the the greatest crime in history, You know, that they put the the sin spot list son of God, upon the cross, and they were guilty,
but so too are we. You know, every all have sinned all of turned away all of falling short worry about. And and if we're if we're... If our if our motivation is our value, why would they it's say, in verse 37, they heard this. They were cut to the heart. That is sorrow over sin. That's. Yeah that has to be the posture of someone who truly will receive full forgiveness is to first see how horribly They treated their savior, and we all need to see ourselves as pal for what what Price did.
And and so they they cried out to Peter and say, Brothers, what shall we do. And what does Peter say? Repent and be backed. Size every 1 of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And and, you know, repentance is It's the change of mind. It's it it's the change of thinking. It's I'm no longer against Christ. I'm for him now. It's but this is a this is the spiritual work. I mean, the the message of the gospel brought about as the holy spirit used that
message. It brought such... Deep conviction that that same holy spirits also offered the gift of of salvation and the gift of life. And so when it says there you receive the gift spirits, you know, we we can assume that some people will take that to mean the the substance of good subsequent gifts that we receive, which I think it could imply that. But I think the main gift here that we have peace with God. So, which is the greatest gift that's been
given to us. So so biblical repentance is to be overwhelmed with our sin to say like Paul, W man that I have, who will rescue me from this body of death. Thanks be to god through our lord of Jesus Christ. Amen. Yeah. It's it's it's that deep hatred that that intense sorrow over our sin. Realizing that that we've missed the mark. And to some extent, I think that's that's captured but it's lacking. So for example, Mh. Re quotes from first John chapter 1, I think versus 5 to 10.
Where it talks about we need to confess our sins and and know that he's faithful and just to forgive us of our sins. And anyone that denies that he's a sinner clearly does not have God. So so that's there. But I don't sense that there's that kind of that deep heartfelt or conviction over our sin.
We can't move forward. That's that's helpful. That's understandable and you look at his later principle of family, you know, breaking family sin patterns that that you're you're struggling because of the blame, you know, the blame of what someone else has done to you, which will we'll get to. But... Sorry. I cut in on you there. Keep going. Yeah. Well, I hope you don't forget what you were saying because it was good. Well, let let me illustrate this from my own life.
There was time years ago, many years ago, where I was just a very dishonest person and where I lied a lot and covered up the truth that was just d sequel. And and the holy spirit really had to convict me. I I had to have a change of mind because beforehand, I thought, well, this is being dishonest is helping me get ahead. You know, I can project an image of myself and people can think that I'm I'm better than I really am. And it it it it, would advance me.
I had to come to the realization that this number 1, this is not helping me. This is this is not the kind of character that I need. And number 2, this is not honoring to god. And and that's that's the kicker right there. That's that's the main thing. This does not honor god. So my thinking had to change. Had to change big time, and and there was that process of of healing.
But it starts with with really hating your sin, and kinda like Paul, you know, W man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death, I I really had to go through that whole process. And so I... Past that... Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. To some extent that's in this chapter, but it does fall short. And 1 of the big reasons why is because there's... He doesn't really unpack, what repentance looks like practically speaking. So there's...
You know, I have books in my library, whole books that that deal with the subject over patents, and they're not small. I mean, some of them are, but some of them are hundreds of pages. So this is this is AAA big subject and granted soul... This the Soul care ministry is not just about repentance. But I think there's a a real... Lack of understanding in the Christian church, when it comes to
repentance. Let me give you another example, there was a gentleman in in a church that I pastor, and he became very offended. That I was using the word, repent or repentance. And in his view, I was using it way too frequently. He became so preoccupied with this that he was actually going back to to old Sermon that I had preached. And counting the number of times that I use the word ends.
Yeah. I know I know it sounds comic, but he was it was very offensive to him, and I don't think that that's abnormal in this day and age. People people hear repentance and when it's... When the preacher the teacher is talking bell biblical repent, it is offensive. Because it's implying, it's teaching that you are wrong, and that you're lust or your dishonest or your gossip or your anger or whatever. That that's wrong. And you need to change.
And if you don't change by the grace of God, you're in danger of help You know, there's there's passages that say that. So it's... That's where the church is lacking, and I think that's where soul care, fall short because there... There's not the that deep biblical understanding of repentance. Well, let's... He he uses a really interesting example here and it it shows how there's a divergence. Here and understand repentance. So this is more a path into the... It's
a spiritual of of repentance. If I can put it that way of of going back into an experience and then picturing Jesus there. Again, we talked about this being what's often called this the theo pho counseling. But he he meets a young girl who had her aborted her baby.
He's meeting with her has her close eyes and go back and kinda remember, that experience, even the smells and sounds and in in that moment, she's describing those things, he he urges her to picture Jesus there, and to listen to Jesus says he's speaking to her, and she describes Jesus coming into the room, holding the baby, and then Re kinda takes on the voice of of Jesus here saying, Jesus, it's a boy. You will meet him again in heaven. He's not angry with you in neither a Am
mi that's Jesus speaking there. I forgiven you as he does. That's Rem speaking. Now go and send no more you are released. And and there again, it's accessing the presence of God, not responding to the gospel, Dan, few... And I've had I've had people me with me as a pastor who've had an abortion. I've never dared to go down this this path. Of of of going into some mystical experience
and then God showing up. What would you say to someone who came to you and was basically confessing this horrible burden, yeah the sin that they had committed. Well, well, first of all, I I think I don't have it in front of me, but in fairness to to to Rob Re. I don't think it was... Kim, who was saying that. I think he was... This is what the lady in that story. That was her... That she was hearing. Okay. So okay. Easy to make that mistake, but I, in fairness I stand corrected on that. Yeah.
Yeah So what I would say is... Yeah. I mean, you you read it and it's it, you know, it kinda tug at the hearts strings, and and you're you're... It's very tough... And you're like, wow what a story.
But I don't see that in scripture. Number 1, and I would go back to what I said, fetching 4, if if I was counseling somebody like that, I would just encourage her to to meditate on the promises of scripture that that God has forgiven you that as literally as far as the East is from the West, that's how far your sin, has been removed from you, your. So you are free. You don't have to carry that burden. Believe the promise of God so it's... Because she's repent of that and asks for free.
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It's it's forgiven and God's word is sufficient. He said it, I believe it in and that's not to say that that the holy spirit doesn't need to work in her heart, to to a reminder her over and over again that she is forgiven Well, that's the assurance of part in that the whole assurance. Yeah. The offer. Yeah. A great contrasting example. I heard a a be british path her talk about a girl that had come to confess to him that she had had an abortion.
And the Lutheran are this is a Lutheran pastor and and they're great. Actually, when it was Brian Wolf Mueller he's an American Lutheran pastor. I just absolutely love. And and he went through a, kind of an app solution exercise with her, which which basically is scripture, You know, you confessed and the... The pastor kind of a, you know, reminds the individual what scripture says. And she repent of it. He reminded her that she's forgiven.
Send her away. A couple weeks later, she came up to him, and she mentioned the abortion again, and he said, what abortion? And, of course, the point was it's forgotten. It's forgiven. It the, it didn't in in in some sense in God's eyes, it didn't happen. You know? So, again, this is a huge difference between the using scripture and using the power and presence of God. It's again, our concern here is it puts a person in this case, Rob or people that he's teaching.
And I'm sad when when pastors take on this... Responsibility. I think it's a huge burden. And that there are the ones that have to play this, the authoritative role as kind of a high priest mediator I'm sorry. That... That's unfair, Rob to put on the people that you're training and teaching. And and and it's bypassing the word of God. To remind him of how they're forgiven. And and I would I would encourage pastors to to just run whenever they, they're they're being exposed to this sort of thing.
Well, the thing... Another thing with that story, like I said, it's touching its heartfelt, but it has nothing to do with repentance. You know, if this is a chapter on the end. But it's... Repentance is... Well, it's thought she was set free of the burden and the guilt and the shame. Right? So in that sense, it fits, you know? Yeah. Dan, you don't like the... At first, I like it. You've kinda talked me out of it, but, you know, Robin. Teaches total life confession. He does that personally.
He meets with mentors or friends and occasionally goes through a complete total life confession, what's your concern there? Yeah. Well... It's not all bad. It's it's just... When I first read that I was kinda like, who has time to to do a total like... That that... You know, I'm I'm 41,
and I... There's a lot that I could share and if if I was to do that with someone, even if I was fully transparent and honest, I'm still gonna be editing, and and there's probably areas that I'm going to omit, and there's certainly sins, that I'm not aware of that I was guilty of 20 years ago or 30 years ago. It's it's just... So we we... We're always going to be telling our story from our perspective, which means it's going to be fallen that's gonna be
limited. It's not... Going to be fully accurate. So I would just say, yes, we do need... We're we're called to confess our sins to 1 another James 5 but I would see that more as, if you send against some brother, you know, go and confess it. And and, yes, if if you're deep in pornography, maybe it's helpful to to go and talk to a brother who's... Who's been there and and understands you it can pray for you and and support you. But I just don't see us a precedent for a total life
confession. And I think the big point is when we confess we go directly to our great High priest. If you if you want to confess and and you should want to confess, as a believer, then you go to Jesus. You go directly to him. Mh. So those... Yeah. Those were some of my concerns with that. It's it's maybe it's secondary because I I think it IIII agree with you with how impractical it is,
maybe not. Not. I I shared with you that I took a guy through an app solution exercise that the Lutheran use and had an elder there with him, and he read through it, you know, confessed to him. We reminded him. He was forgiven and and then called him to obey. At the heart of it really is to go back to the cross and they realized that or believe again that he died for all of my sins
Yep. And and if we confess our sins, he's faithful and Just to forgive us a large large sins and that cleanse us from all righteousness. Next verse. If we continue to send, we have an advocate who speaks to the father in our defense, which is what you're you're arguing for hey. On the on the last bit of repentance, he makes a statements that, hey, let's see. The breath of the spirit needs to blow across these eternal truths so that what is known will become revelation.
And you make the point here that he seems to make a distinction between known and revelation. What's what's your concern there? Again, that's that's it's not a huge concern. It's it's just known if if we know something, then we know it because it's revealed. And so if God has revealed it to us, then he's made it known. So the the the whole distinction there is a little bit confusing. And and it... Maybe it speaks to to more of that... That mystical faith that he's
calling us to. Yeah. You know, the the the breath of the spirit, the, you know, revel presence of Jesus, There's there's a lot of talk... Lot of stories of of teaching people to see pictures to have visions, revelations. Yeah I have a friend who went to a conference and part of the exercise during that conference. This was not with Soul care, but was to help help people, you know, guide them to picturing what the holy spirit sharing to them and then draw
it out. And there's a large alliance church in the northwest I happened to be listening to. They had a guest speaker teaching the children and the parents they have pictures from God, because And then to share that with each other. And I remember dialog with a pastor and just really challenging that, but that comes up in the in the chapter on repentance that
you know, he... He'll make the comment. I'm gonna pray that you see his face, and that the spirit of God will just show you a picture of Jesus, And and the ultimate outcome there is that you will, you know, experience forgiveness by repent in that sort of... Sensational moments. And we say no. Open your bible point to the 1 who came in the flesh 2000 years ago, lived like us a perfect life and photo h died in our place was buried, was raised again was ascended,
that's the picture we need. It's the picture of the gospel. There's again, it just it it just makes me so nervous that we're teaching this. Yeah. Yeah. And and a a great way to to illustrate that would be the parable of the rich man and Lazarus from Yep. Loop chapter 16. And and if I can just summarize the story, Jesus sets it up, you've got this rich man. He lives it up in this earthly life, lazarus. He's extremely poor. They both die and lazarus, he ends up in heaven.
Carried by the angels to Abraham side, the rich man ends up in Hades in torment. And so the rich man he's kinda like, father Abraham have mercy on me, you know, tell Lazarus to to go provide relief for my torment. And so, Abraham, he he basically says, well, you know, there's this great chasm. He can't go to you. You can't go to him. That's not gonna work. Well, then the the Rich man says then I beg you father, send him to my father's house for I have 5 brothers.
So that he may warn them lest they also come into this place of torment. Kinda like if if they see this guy raised from the dead, then they'll believe. But Abraham said they have Moses and the prophets let them hear them, and he said no father, Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent. And then this is this is the key verse if they do not hear Moses in the prophets, neither will they be convinced. If someone should rise from the dead.
So we see there the sufficiency of scripture, You know, people keep looking for something more plus, when the bible over and over, particularly the the teaching of Jesus are lord to he's saying you you need to believe you have Moses. You have the prophets. You have the word of God. That's sufficient. Believe in the word. You don't need all these, you know, these mystical visions, trust the the power and sufficiency of God's word.
Dan, if anything will make people nervous or prone to want to see signs, hear this from, Matthew 12:38 39. He answered, or the... The then some of the ph season and of lot said teachers, we wanna see a sign from you. He answered a wicked and adult risk generation asks were assigned, but none will give it except for the sign or the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the huge fish. So so the son of man will be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth.
The only sign we need is the sign of the gospel, the sign of the cross, the symbol of the cross. The only story we need is not from visions and dreams and whatever God brings to your mind. It's it's the story of the gospel. That is sufficient. You know, all all scriptures inspired from God profitable for rebuke for correction for teaching and righteousness.
And so, again, I would just really caution pastors who are getting caught up in this because it's becoming so prevalent even within our our own denomination. Amen. Amen. Alright, Dan. Let's go ahead and move on and talk about the third principle of breaking family send. Patterns, what what's going on here? Because I I think we'd probably have more concerns about this, or as much as we do the last principle Yeah. So this principle, the third 1 really on unpack, looking back...
At your family of Origin, and particularly, looking at those those prevalent sin patterns. And so doctor Rob Re, he tells stories of going and talking to his grandma, She was kinda like the the family guardian, and she was the 1 that everybody looked to, and she was the 1 that knew the the family secrets. And he he talks about how she explained to them that there was this, sin of sexual immoral similarity that was in the family, and it was really devastating to the family.
And so I I think the the simple way to the simple way that I would respond to that is there there are... There is value in that. There's value in in understanding your history, your family tree. Some of the the things that have really been problematic. However, I I think you... Where it becomes problematic is when you become so obsessed with tracking down all the family's dirty laundry. And knowing all the the the history.
And thinking that that's somehow going to help you in in your quest for soul deliverance and and soul health, so to speak. But and and 1 of the other things that I find is problematic is it it's almost like Re implying that this is a big deal. He's not saying you're cursed, but he he's saying you need to take this very seriously. You know, there might be things in the closet. That you need to uncover. And if you don't, they could really drag you down. And I'm gonna say no.
Yeah. And and the exercise to determine that is not always. You know, doing a research, you know, go to ancestors dot com, track your family, get their story. Again, a lot of this happens through mystical experiences and you know, kinda channel... Sorry for using that term, but channel the holy spirit to, for the holy spirit to reveal these things, and and I know he gives different stories where that's the case. You know, Dan, when when my son travis died of cancer at the age of 13,
someone came to me once. And and he was a trusted friend. I wasn't a offended by it at all because I've been thinking it myself. They said, you know, have you ever thought that maybe you know, God took Travis because of your sins, and my wife had hit just had brain cancer before that. So there was a lot happening to my family, with And I I remember saying, you know, I don't think so. That's just not the way I view God based on how he's
revealed and... Scripture, but he certainly has the right to, and he has a table full of sins to have chosen from. He wouldn't have had much difficulty to decide which sand would have been, you know, reason or cause for punishing me. But I... You know, it's just a dangerous thing to it to go there, you know, to try to... And and I know when I've counsel, you know, younger, vulnerable Christians who've experienced hardships, they'll
they'll blame themselves for it. You know? And and you know, there's there's been times where I've said unless the holy spirit reveals that to you. But again, that kinda goes down that. Track of Mh. Of, you know, him revealing himself to you outside the scripture, which makes me nervous, I think where I point to people is just the attributes of God. He's good. He's faithful. He's just. He's fully... He's always gonna do what's good.
And I do know that 1 of the outcomes of losing my son was... A a desire for h, You know, a deeper desire for purity. But that was more reacting to this awesome God. It wasn't me, the going on this, you know, getting my shovel and, you know, digging for, you know, my past and what might have contributed to that. So anyway, just a personal story there how I Yeah. Encountered that. And you, you know, the they they asked Jesus who send, You know,
the blind man. So, hit him or his parents, and Jesus said neither, this happens so the works of God might be displayed or revealed in him. Yeah. So even Jesus quickly talked them out of that. It was a common, you know, perception bad then as someone sick must have been the sins of his parents or grandparents. Well, here's here's another potential problem when you focus too much on your family's sins.
They become the culprit. So it's... The reason I they should pay reparations The reason the way that I'm the reason I'm so messed up today is because a mom and dad. Or because of gram and Grandpa, it's their fault, and they passed it along to me, and I'm not guilty Listen to what it says in Ezekiel chapter 18. Yet you say, why should not the son suffer for the ini of the father. When the sun is done, what is just and right and has been careful to observe all my statute,
he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the ini of the father, nor the father suffer for the ini of the son. The righteousness, of the righteous shall be upon himself and the wicked of the wicked shall be upon himself. So that clearly of lays the blame lays the guilt upon the individual.
It's it's so easy and and really we live in a victim society where my problems are not because of me and my my own bad heart, it's because of someone else or my bad circumstances in life, something like that. We need to take responsibility for our own sense. And and while it can be helpful to to understand family patterns and and those kinds of things. At the end of the day, we need to to uncover our own sin, and then move forward, according to scripture according to what we find in the gospel.
So that's... That that would be another concern is we can shift the blame rather than taking responsibility ourself. Yeah. And again, what's happening in soul care at conferences is getting people. To... Again, I've never attended, but I've watched it online, done a lot of lot of research on this, but, again, it's getting people to kinda track back through the guidance of the holy spirit to
identify things that maybe have been done. You know, my my dad, often would share how his parents were not believers. His dad was not affectionate. But he made a concerted effort to not be like them, and he never spiritual it. You know, he... He... And I would encourage people to to...
You know, I guess, glean something from this that, hey, maybe you are the way you are because of the environment that you were raised in, And certainly, if your father was an abuser and was an alcoholic, and he beat his wife or beat you or abused you. That's a spiritual problem. You know? But but don't blame your own sin on that.
You know, acknowledge that you had a horrible role model and and that that created a horrible even spiritual environment that that even perhaps contributed to your view of God but repent of that bad view of God and and get to know this new God, the, you know, your new father, by way of scripture, And and that's a much healthier way to you know, to to be healed and to be in a in a healthy place as an individual he talks about Joseph as an example of this in the Old testament and talk a
little bit about that because that's rather intriguing. Yeah. Because Joseph is known as the only character in the bible outside of Daniel that there's no ascent... There's no sin attributed to him. To them. It it doesn't mean they weren't sinner, but they... You know, and I think they're portrayed that way to be a a great price type, a shadow of price for us. Yeah. Yeah. Good point. So yeah. Rob Re, he he deals with the
story of Joseph. And it it was... Concerning to me because, like you, I've I've always kind of esteem Joseph. This was a man of exe character but he paints in different picture, a very different picture. Does. Re paints a very different peach picture. Yeah. So he begins by... He's talking about favor and how that can be passed along. It talks about David and Abraham, I believe. And it's almost like Re is blaming Joseph for his father's favor.
Now clearly, Joseph was a favorite. Nobody's gonna argue with that. But he makes it into a character issue. Joseph if you read the whole story, we know that Joseph is the favorite because of his mother because of Rachel. A ratio was the wife that Jacob truly loved. That's why he's... Or or as it says in in the story, Joseph was the son of his old age. That's why Jacob loved Joseph. Mh And yet Re says that the reason that Joseph gave, a bad report, of his brothers was because
of some character deficiency. He was striving. He was craving that favor, and and he makes of Joseph into the bad guy. And, I'm just like, well, if you look at if you look at Joseph's brothers, clearly there was some issues there. He kinda makes them to be innocent when they're the ones that in just a short while, they sold them into slavery. In fact, they wanted to kill him. That speaks to me of men who have some serious sin issues.
And then we we continue to read the story and and even still early on when Joseph's in Egypt. And Pot first wife is after him trying to seduce him. And what's he doing, He's running away from that when most people, most men would not do that. So this is this is not a story about a troubled young man, who was all about comparison and superiority and keeping himself as as the father's favorite favorite. But that's what Re implies. So at the end of the day I
mean, you'll have to read the... You'll have to read it for yourself. But for me, this is problematic, and this is an example. Of Re are doing what's called iso jesus rather than exe jesus. So he's he's got He's talking about favor and he's looking for a story on... That that illustrates that. So he lands on Joseph. And and then he ends up reading something into the text that's not there that isn't there. Yeah. Just the bolster point.
Yeah. Yeah. And then really, Call the pastors to be exe identical to do x exe jesus read out of the text. Don't read into the text. Iso jesus is wrong. Jesus is good. Well, and look for look for the plain meaning of the text. Yeah. We we have no reason to to doubt Joseph's character. I mean, maybe he was un otherwise to... And maybe even a little boast to share... Yeah, the dreams.
And well, that's another thing is, it's almost like Re kinda cast out In terms of whether those those dreams were really divine. Like... Yeah. And I'm, like, wait a minute. I mean, that that's that's what the scripture says. Clearly... Yeah. You. We take... All, this makes people listening to this, say, oh, wow. It is in the bible, You know, but we're saying, yeah. It's in the bible, but it's being read wrong.
So don't don't read the bible wrong. Read it read it correctly and you won't come up with with this conclusion It's not a supporting text we're saying. Yeah. And, you know, don't be looking for some fancy interpretation. Just go with with the plain meaning of scripture and and don't try and read something in that's not there. So that that was... Yeah. With that was concerning, and I just get the feeling that he doesn't handle the scriptures with care.
Yeah. And that's that's a big red flag for me. Okay. Anything else on that last point, we'll we'll do the next 1 and then wrap up forgiving others. Unless you have any comments about family patterns? No. I I think we, I mean, there's more to say, but we should probably move on to... Forgiving Yeah. And there's not all lot to sand forgiving others. We we really felt like this as a a, you know, fairly good chapter, Probably a few things you know, that we're concerned about.
You know, again, he he gives an, you know, illustration here of, of a gal who he meets with who's deeply hurt and she shared how she hated everybody in her family. She hated her pastor. She resorted to drinking, you know, to cover the pain. So Re addresses what's in her soul, not in her heart or mind, again, that gets very nuanced and complicated and confusing. But after sharing her pain with Re, he was... Responds with this. Are you ready to
let Jesus access your soul? He pray and says, Lord Jesus come and drain the pain from that which is locked inside or heart. So again, take the suitcase, dump it out. So you know, what basically Ways arguing doing here is, again, is the presence of God that touched and untouchable... 4 of of pain in her life, that that which had been buried in her souls. He so for 30 minutes as a result of this, you know, that's that's where forgiveness came. It's
a weird thing. It's, again, rather than pointing you the and say, hey. You send, repent, ask or forgiveness, be reminded that Jesus for Day. It's gone through this little... Again, journey to experienced something mystical that you know, can be our... It it's hard to argue it didn't happen unless you just all I believe that these things don't happen, you know? Yeah.
Yeah. Like, well, like you said... You know, we would argue the way to respond to hate anger, pain is to repent and accept the forgiveness of Jesus and then stop doing it. That You know, that that's the obedient burn away. Yeah. Yeah. So so 1 of the things... Yeah. Let... Like you said off the bat, you there's things that we can certainly affirm in here, you must forgive. You know, Jesus says that if you don't forgive, then what makes you think your heavenly father is going to forgive you.
So forgiveness is absolutely essential. We're never more like God than when we forgive. But here's something that that is concerning to me, I'm not sure what page it is. III think it's page 01:26. If we don't take the high ground and forgive Rem writes. Satan will take up ground in your souls. So here he's he's adding a consequence that I don't I don't think... And I I did look up the commentary a little bit. I don't know if that's that's a good way to read that text.
And the text is ephesians 04:26 and 27. Oh, so when... In when he talks about giving up ground, he he doesn't just mean the influence of the devil, he literally means occupied space in the heart of the believer. So if we don't forgive this, if we don't forgive Sin from another person, then Satan is going to gain ground. He's he's going to to to fill space in your soul. And for me, I don't see that in scripture. If if we don't forgive then number 1, we're we're being dis disobedience.
And it is going to to affect us negatively. And and if there's this... This pattern of unforgiveness, then we should question whether we're truly saved because, you know, the heart of God is a heart to forgive. But I don't see that scripture implies in any way that that Satan's going to take up ground in our soul. And that's... I mean, we'll treat that in the next podcast, but this is yet another example of Re.
Taking something from scripture and then kind of tweaking it and adding his own little take, which to me goes beyond scripture. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good point. Well, I don't really have much more to say there. Again, what... I think our our conclusion would be that... Again, you go to Matthew 5, if you go to the altar there. You remember, a brother has something against you. You you'll be obedient and you go and and make it right.
So many other places in scripture that tell us to be reconciled with 1 another. I again, I I think overarching all of this is just a lot of spiritual things to make it exciting to make it sensational, to make it emotional because our emotions kinda drive us and we feel like something has happened because we feel it.
You know, We... There's the emotion to... And so I it it makes sense that people we would say false teachers would create environments that are very high energy and highly emotionally charged so that there's a sense that the spirit is working and doing stuff. But I think it's in the quiet of our own hearts, thinking with our minds that the you know, hey, there's something wrong in my heart, and I need to be reconciled with someone
else. Therefore, go and be reconciled and do the right thing, and then believe that by doing that, God bless you and and gives you the holy spirit to to remind you that you you have forgiven, you know, forgive as you have forgiven those extend against you. That's in the Lord's prayer. And then don't do it again. You know, if if that anger comes back, stop it and you don't leave allow it to be back in. Y. Yeah. Yeah. Flashes 3 again,
put off and put on, You know? The paul talks about the many things you stop doing and then here are things you start doing. These these don't need to be spiritual because that makes it fantastic and sensational. So I I think that's you know, we're calling people just to trust what scripture says to believe what Jesus said, about ourselves or our identity, about, you who's responsible for sin, not family. You are, Jesus said something about it.
And then, you know, forgive repent, just matter change your mind and do the right thing and then be be forgiving people. You know, It's it's really really simple. So we're gonna we're gonna tackle the other ones in the next podcast, maybe we'll do the last... You know, the the... Demon and w peace on the next 1 or we might. We're hoping to invite someone to be part of it. We haven't confirmed that yet. Yeah. But any closing thoughts here, Dan.
Yeah. I I would say that for those who are caught up in soul care, and obviously, there's many many people as we said in the first podcast. This has a a huge following. But for those who are caught up and it, it's easy, and and I know this from top talking to people. It's easy to become fearful. Do I have a demon? You know, life is not going right? I'm dealing with this or that And so it's only natural for them to conclude that, oh, maybe I've got a demon. And people become paranoid and fearful.
And I don't blame them. You know, if they've if they bought into this to to this whole scheme of soul care, they're gonna think that. But you need to... And and we keep hammering on scripture because we have to. You know, that's our sole rule for faith and practice. What does the Bible say say? Well, if you look at first John 05:18, it says the evil 1 does not touch you? Now that's a para phrase. But if you are in Christ, if you are truly a child of God, the evil 1 the devil cannot touch you.
What accord does Christ have with Be bile? So you you just see that Satan's, you kingdom and Price kingdom, they're incompatible. That they don't jive. They don't go together. And therefore, you are free, you're protected, the evil 1 cannot touch you. And so I just really feel for those who who are caught up in this and and they don't really have what what we might call a theology of suffering. They don't understand that we live in a fallen world. Things are gonna go wrong.
Life is not always gonna be the way that we want it to be, But just because of that, it doesn't imply that we're demon or that, you know, even we're under attack. I mean, yes, we we possibly could be, but don't go thinking that Satan is occupying space in your soul. And and then you need to Yeah to be delivered in that way. So that's... Yeah. That would... What you made. Yeah. Yeah. And and you made a really good point there. We... We're concerned about people who've
been affected by this. We're we're not attacking anybody. We're addressing a teaching that we have personally seen. Dan, we... We're not doing this because we've read books and we're oh, this is not right. We have we have personally seen. I wish we could tell the stories of the number of people who've been hurt by us. We are gonna have a separate post with this podcast of several testimonies of people who have seen come out of soul care. And so this comes out of a deep
concern for people. It's not an attack on anyone, yeah. So... Okay. We will we will continue this next week, hopefully, Dan. Thanks so much. Thanks, Mitch. Take care. Take care my. Well, there you have, a thank you so much for listening to this episode before you quit podcasts. If you have any questions or comments, You can email me at mitch, add before you quit dot Us. So until next time, stay encouraged and be courageous because serving Jesus is worth all of that hearts stuff that comes with
it. And remember what we're told in first Corinthians 15, 57 through 58, but thanks, speak to god. Stuff He gives us the victory through our lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters stand firm, let nothing move you always. Give yourselves fully to the work of the lord because you know that your labor and the lord is not in vain. Until next time, stay encouraged.