Make life more sustainable, with Kathy Oneto - podcast episode cover

Make life more sustainable, with Kathy Oneto

Jun 04, 202523 min
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Episode description

Kathy Oneto, author of Sustainable Ambition, shares how to make work and life work together

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Transcript

Speaker 1

Good morning. This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's episode will be a longer one part of the series where I interview fascinating people about how they take their days from great to awesome and any advice they have for the rest of us. So today I am excited to welcome Kathy Onetto to the show. Kathy is the author of the book Sustainable Ambition, which is out this month. So Kathy, thank you for joining us.

Speaker 2

Thanks first, thanks so much for having me Laura.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I'm excited to have you on this So why don't you introduce yourself to our listeners.

Speaker 2

Sure, So, I am somebody who has embraced ambition across both my professional and personal lives. I've had an over twenty five year career at this point, and I'm in my second act, and i have what I call a portfolio career. I do strategy consulting and transformation work, but I'm also the founder of Sustainable Ambition, where I'm a

life work strategist, coach and facilitator. And in this realm, I leverage that strategy background and apply it to life and work integration and management, and I explore rethinking success and ambition, And I'm really passionate about helping ambitious professionals, organizations and teams explore how to live and work differently from more success, satisfaction and sustainability.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Well, what does sustainable ambition mean? I mean, how is that different from garden variety ambition?

Speaker 2

That's interesting? Yeah, well, I mean sustainable ambition really means like, how do we stay engaged in our lives, in our work over time, and how do we pursue what we really want and desire in our lives without sacrificing our lives in the process or ourselves.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And so Sustainable Ambition, which is your book on this topic, is out this month in June. And in the book you talk about are being three pillars to sustainable ambition? Maybe you could talk through those quickly for us. Sure.

Speaker 2

So, I say that we can find more life, work, sustainability, and really approach our goals with more resilience when we align the right ambitions at the right time, with the right effort and right ambition is really about shifting from using external motivators to drive us to shifting toward our internal motivators, looking at what really are going to be internal drivers of reward for us, right time is about

shifting from doing it all to doing what matters. It asks us to look at life and work together and consider our life stage and really prioritize what matters at this time. And then right effort is really about shifting from constant drive to really strategic effort. It's about how do I be discerning about where I'm putting in my effort? And then also am I being thoughtful and intentional? How I am sustaining myself over time?

Speaker 1

Absolutely well. I wanted to drill in a little bit on that right time one because I think the experience I know a lot of people have had, and you know that I've talked with people about how they spend their time over the years, is that, you know, it's not that we are ambitious or not ambitious. Often our ambition goes up and down at different stages depending on

what else is going on in their lives. And I've heard people going through very very intense times in their personal life for whatever reason that happens to be good, bad, whatever, that they are in a more coasting mindset for a little while. It doesn't mean that they're not going to be perfectly ambitious in a year and want to, you know, conquer the world a year from now, but right now they kind of need to take it down and not Is that your experience as well?

Speaker 2

Yes, that's definitely my experience, and I think that that is more normal than people realize. And I think what's important and what I try to espouse and I think you do, is well to have people recognize that that ebbing and flowing happens, that we aren't just one note, or that you know, we can't dial it up and down, because what happens when people experience that shift is it's

really uncomfortable for them. And when we identify as I'm ambitious and all of a sudden, you feel this sense of like, oh, I'm dialing down my ambition at this time, it makes people think that there's a character flaw there or something, when that's not really the case. It just may be that you need to put your attention elsewhere, or you need a time to kind of dial it down so you can figure out what's next.

Speaker 1

And I think it also helps if you are managing other people to recognize this as well.

Speaker 2

Right for sure. I mean I think that this is one of the fundamental flaws honestly, and now careers are managed inside organizations. I fundamentally think this is one of the frustrations, you know, that why is it that corporate America can't figure out that people have personal lives. There are life stages where people need some flexibility in how they accommodate the integration of these two sides of what's just normal human life.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Well, and I always find it interesting because a lot of the conversation about work life balance, and particularly with women, I mean, people start talking about like taking career pauses or taking time out from the workplace. It's like, well, maybe we could also just recognize that you could dial it up and down at different points too, that it doesn't have to be all in or nothing.

Speaker 2

Yes, for sure. And I go back to you know, Amrie Slaughter wrote about this in her book where she talks about this idea of having on and off ramps. And I think that that strategy is really wise. And yet I also think that when people do potentially take an off ramp, you know, to be discerning again and

intentional when you do that. I like to say, like position yourself well, like invest in your potential even when you're taking an off ramp, so that when you are ready to get back on, you are you know, marketable, that you actually feel like you have a sense of

where you might want to jump back in. And the other benefit of that is that oftentimes we take an identity hit when we're not working per se, and so investing in your potential when you're on in an off ramp, say, has that added benefit of building your identity as well.

Speaker 1

Yeah, and then let's talk about right effort, because sometimes it's hard for people to figure out what is worth putting a lot of effort into and what is not.

Speaker 2

Yes, yeah, I mean I think you know, there's a couple of different ways of thinking about this. I have three questions in the book around this to kind of help people identify like, well, what is your aspiration around a goal? You know, how good do you want to be? And then to really discern, well what is worth your hard work? And also you know, to really think about, well, what is your motivation behind a goal as well? Do

you have the desired effort to put against that? And are you really thinking about the required effort So that they can have some ways of exploring like what really deserves my hard work around our ambitions as opposed to treating every goal as if it's equal and everything deserves like this high level of effort, which I think a lot of ambitious people tend to operate that.

Speaker 1

Way, well, except when they find out it's impossible. I mean, you cannot have everything and you know, be approached with the same level of intensity. I mean, and you'll just it's not that you won't, it's not sustainable, and from a burnout perspective, it's that you won't achieve all those things. You just there's many places one can go in life, and one cannot do all of them correct.

Speaker 2

Yes, I think that's right, And I think that you know, this is I think what most people really get wrong. Sometimes people ask me, well, what a most ambitious people kind of get wrong? And I think this angle of like not allowing ourselves to dial things down in certain areas is an area that we there's just fundamental flaws in doing that. You know, we just you know, we don't have to do it all. We don't have to

achieve constantly. You know, we can reward ourselves. We can subtract and not focus on everything, and you know, you don't have to be driving hard all the time, you can take breaks, and fundamentally, all those things are required if you're not going to run yourself into the ground and be exhausted all the time.

Speaker 1

Absolutely, Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and I will be back with more from Kathyoetto. Well, I am back with Kathy Onnetto, who is the author of the new book Sustainable Ambition. We're talking about how we can make sure that we are spending the right amount of effort on things and doing things at the right time as well. Let's talk about managing energy, because that's something that comes up in a lot of this

that energy. I always say time. You know, we cannot make more time, but we can change our energy levels or at least monitor them through the day and understand that there are things we can do to add to our energy levels and things that away from our energy levels. How does that play into the story of sustainable ambition and what would you recommend as we think about.

Speaker 2

Energy, I think managing energy is just as important as managing time, and I think people need to be really discerning about this. They need to better understand, like, well, what is their when are they best in terms of time in the day, in terms of managing their energy, understanding what's called their chronotype. You know, are common chronotypes. You can take quizes to kind of figure that out, but understanding like am I a morning person? Am I

an evening person? And really making sure you're using those times when you are most energetic to do the things that are most important. But I also think, you know, Doris Kern's Goodwin, the presidential biographer, has said, you know, the most underappreciated leadership strength is the ability to relax

and replenish energy. And I tend to agree with this, which is, like, again, what most of us get wrong is that we just drive, drive, drive, versus remembering that we need to actually have plan what I call a plan to sustain ourselves. And even small things like taking breaks is important. And I think people think it's such a small thing and it sounds so simple, But I put time here because the reality is a lot of

us don't take our breaks. Fifty percent of knowledge workers, according to Slack, like don't take breaks during the day, and most.

Speaker 1

Of us don't take our vacation.

Speaker 2

Those things figuring out a strategy and having a plan to how do we actually make sure that we're managing our energy in a wise way I think is really important for us to think about.

Speaker 1

So I would argue with that slack statistic in the sense that people don't take breaks where they consciously get up from their work and go do something else. Now, I will say the number of knowledge workers who are in their inbox and then see a breaking news alert, go click over to it, read the article, wind up checking their sports scores, their stocks, you know, like looking at their WhatsApp thread from the kids' soccer league on

their phone while they're away from doing all this. Like that number is high, and those breaks, but they didn't feel like breaks, right.

Speaker 2

I think that's probably right, Laura. I mean again, that's where like intentional breaks is really important, and how you're using that time is really important.

Speaker 1

Yeah, because that doesn't add to your energy levels, whereas actually going outside and taking a ten minute walk does exactly. Exactly. Yeah, just to be clear on this, but there's things we could do sort of holistically to add to our energy levels as well. I mean, not just like taking breaks during the day, but sort of as a whole person, what might help.

Speaker 2

Well, Yeah, I mean I mean what I really advocate for people and developing their sustaining plan is to really tap into their own knowledge of themselves and how they work. I don't think that there's this like miracle plan out there, that this is this one size it's all. You really have to tune in and think about what works for you. So I have people assess, like, well, what does restore

protect and support your energy? Do an audit of that and see what really works for you, and then evaluate what might be working, what might not be working, and make some shifts. I also talk about, you know, not just making this personal, but really you have to prototype and practice this. Oftentimes again people say well what should I do, and it's like, well, what do you want to try?

Speaker 1

What works for you?

Speaker 2

And then go and test it out, test it out for a certain period of time, see how it's working for you. Is that supporting your energy levels and helping to make sure that you feel sustained? And then it is a practice. I think that what people often get wrong too is that they just think it's going to

again be this miracle cure. But you have to make it a practice, and you also have to come back to it and reassess it because things change over time as well, like what worked for you last season may not work for you now, so you may need to adjust as well over time.

Speaker 1

Yeah, people like I took a break once and it didn't do anything for me. Right. Well. Another thing I often talk about with people is putting big things into your personal life that are energy boosting. That if we have some passion price that's outside of work, that can often I mean, even though it takes time, it can make us feel more excited about the rest of life, which can then you know, boost energy for everything you have. You found that to be.

Speaker 2

The case, Yes, yes, I often actually quote you, Laura that in my work too, because you know, I do think this is important. And one of the things that I talk about in the book and around this work is I say, you know, claim a life ambition. And I mean it sounds silly, like most of us have life ambitions. But yet when I tell people, hey, you can have life ambitions. Ambition is not just for work, a lot of people are kind of shocked. And you know,

I can have a life ambition. Yes, you can have a life ambition, and again most of us do.

Speaker 1

But when we.

Speaker 2

Invest in those things, when we actually make them as urgent and as important as some of the other things that we think should like claim to our time and our energy. You know, it ends up fueling us in a way that can fuel all the other things that we're wanting to do.

Speaker 1

Yeah, and now we mentioned that, you know, we can't just rely on one hit things. But if somebody wanted to do something today to make life feel more sustainable, what would you recommend they try.

Speaker 2

Well, one thing that I that I offer in the book is this idea of where time versus wish time. And you know, some of the what results in our feelings of time pressure can be you know, this tension between a mindset of where we are spending our time versus where we wish we were spending our time. And so I would have people do a very simple exercise, which is go look back at your calendar for last week,

evaluate where did you spend your time? Then pause and reflect and say where do you wish you were spending your time? And this week, make one small shift toward where you wish you were spending your time. Start to do some of the things that you really want to be doing to help support you and help you operate at your best.

Speaker 1

Absolutely, well, we're going to take one more quick ad break and then I'll be back with more from Kathy. So I am talking with Kathy on Nato, who's the author of the brand new book Sustainable Ambition. So let's talk about your schedule, Kathy. Do you have any routines that help make you more productive?

Speaker 2

Yeah? I probably have too many, Laura, but I will say there's some that might seem contradictory. So I'm very much a planner. I like to prepare ahead of time, both my week as well as my days, and there's pros and cons to that. I will say, like, for me, it works, but it can also mean for others around me.

I can sometimes seem a little inflexible in terms of like, at least one day, Like if I've kind of planned my day, that's kind of what I'm hoping to you have it offering as And yet I will say, in contrast to that, I'm also a huge believer in following my energy, and so I also really do have a plan.

But if I wake up and I'm kind of like, that's not in me to work on that right now, It's like if I try to work on that, I'm just going to you know, flounder, like then I'm going to adjust what I'm working on, so I also try to be flexible within that.

Speaker 1

Do you have any particular like morning routines. I know people who listen to the show are big into that.

Speaker 2

You know, my biggest one is probably just getting up and having coffee, right, But also like within that time, it's my quiet time, you know, I really I tend to be a night our Honestly, I like to work in the mornings and I like to work in the evenings. And so when I wake up first, first thing in the morning, before I get into that work period, I do like to have quiet time and space just for myself before I jump into my work. Those are really kind of my morning routines.

Speaker 1

Well, what does your schedule look like then during the day? I mean, I'm trying to figure out how how one makes this work. If you like to work in the morning and work in the evening, what does a daily schedule tend to look like?

Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean, well, because I am self employed and because I have a flexible schedule, it can very day to day, but generally, you know, I am getting up early, having that space, I jump into work fairly early. Also because I tend to work with people on the East coast and I'm on the West coast, so sometimes I have to jump into things pretty early, and then I

tend to be pretty flexible with my afternoon time. I might get a workout in in the middle of the day, or I'm getting it in in the late afternoon, and then I might then come back to work or often do come back to work in the evening.

Speaker 1

And when you said you do a lot of planning, what does your planning routine tend to look like?

Speaker 2

I would say I'm just very clear on both two things, one like what I am trying to accomplish the next day, like what do I have on my schedule? But I will say that planning again, like I said, I like to plan across like both different time periods, so days, weeks.

I know you're an advocate of a week, but I also tend to look at longer horizons as well, because I think planning for sustainability across a lot longer horizon is more manageable, so that you can see, like, hey, I might have an intense week or an intense month, but I know I can build in times and other places for downtime so that I can make it sustainable over a longer time horizon. So I'm planning on different time horizons like that.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I always love the idea of zooming out. I mean, I guess one of my sort of time management tips for people, life management tips or sustainability tips if you will, is if if any given period looks crunched, tries zooming your focus out longer, because usually at least by the time you're looking at like a year, it's not going to be intense every single moment of the entire year. Now, I'm not saying this week won't be bad, but you know that can be particularly helpful. People are in cyclical

sorts of jobs. I mean, somebody who's like an accountant. Well, you know March is gonna be terrible, but that doesn't mean August will be and so you can, you know, look out for a bigger time horizon.

Speaker 2

I agree with that, yes, wholeheartedly.

Speaker 1

So let's story. I always ask people question, what is something you have done recently to take a day from great to awesome?

Speaker 2

You know, I think what I would say to this is, and I did this just this weekend, which is to actually pause and really take in a great day and to acknowledge it. So that to me is a way to take things from great to awesome. You know, I really love the practice by doctor Rick Hanson. It's called heel, which is in shorthand. It's just have an experience and take it in and by doing that repeatedly over time, it builds our resilience. And so that's a practice that

I really love to employ. So like this weekend, my husband and I went out to dinner one night and we both just paused at the end and said, wow, that was such a great night and really took it in and acknowledged it. And having done that, it also stays with me much much longer and helps me. Really it really does take it from great to awesome. It really does help me underst like, whoa, that was really an amazing night, And it doesn't have to be this huge thing. That can be really small.

Speaker 1

Yeah. I love the idea of savoring. Just you know, you not only have a good experience, but you pause and notice that you are having a good experience. It adds this extra layer of acknowledgment to the enjoyment and just takes it a little little deeper. Exactly exactly and what are you looking forward to right now.

Speaker 2

I will say with the book coming out, one is just continuing to have conversations about this. It's really the thing that brings me the most joy is being in conversation with people around how do we really rethink success and ambition, how do we make it sustainable for ourselves? How do we rethink how we're shaping our lives and work in that regard. But I will also admit I am taking a step back and looking at things with

a longer horizon. As you well know, a book launch is intense, and so I'm really looking forward to some downtime that I see off on the horizon. And the final thing is just that you know, around ambition, I really believe that, you know, some things can be brewing and new things can come up. That's part of the

ebbing and flowing as well. We're not again just going to keep going on one path, and so I already sense new ambitions brewing, and in this time I'm having to put them off on the horizon as well and put them on the back burner until I have capacity to kind of take them on. But I will say I am looking forward to kind of digging into exploring further, like, well, what new ambition is actually on the horizon?

Speaker 1

Absolutely well, as long as we can keep track of them and we can come back to them in the future, right for sure?

Speaker 2

For sure?

Speaker 1

Absolutely so, Kathy, where can people find you?

Speaker 2

People can find me at Sustainable Ambition dot com and they can also find me on LinkedIn.

Speaker 1

Absolutely all right, Well, Kathy, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback about this or any other episode, you can always reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. And in the meantime, this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach me at Laura at Laura

vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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