in a world brimming with complexity few creatures embody harmony like the honeybee with tireless precision she dances from bloom to bloom each motion guided by millennia upon millennia of instinct each act in service to the whole and then There are the beekeepers, watchful stewards
of this ancient symbiosis. Part agriscientist, part poet, they move along their hives with the efficiency of mow, levy and curly, tending to the bees' needs as best they can comprehend, and with the infrequency of a waterfall in the Sahara, sometimes running off, flapping and flailing like a penguin on a hot sidewalk. This is their journey. and partners in beekeeping, Man Lake. Today we're going to have a fun conversation with a beekeeper whose hobby has gotten, let's
just say, out of control. Or as he puts it, a hobby gone too far. First, a piece of news from the beekeeping world. The headline reads, could bees be a model for SETI searches? Ever since humans learned that there are countless stars in the universe with their own planetary systems, we have wondered if intelligent life exists beyond Earth. For more than 60 years, scientists have engaged in the search for extraterrestrial intelligence, also known as SETI. But all these attempts have
yielded no definitive results. This has led scientists to question their methods and the possible indications of technological activity that they should be looking for. In addition, they've come to consider expanding the search to include different forms of communication. Now this is where the bees come in. One idea that has persistently guided SETI research is the notion that there exists
one universal language. mathematics. Researchers at Monash University and the Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology University have conducted experiments that showed that bees appreciate and even participate in mathematics. Over the last few years the team explored the ability of bees to learn math. As they explain in their study, the evolution of bees and humans diverged over 600 million years ago, yet both possess the capacity for communication, social behavior,
and math. The divergence in our methods for communicating are especially interesting. Whereas humans have evolved to use verbal language to communicate, bees evolved a physical language, the waggle dance. Through the motions of their limbs, bees are able to communicate the location of resources and other vital information. This includes both the distance and direction of resources as well as the angle of the sun and even the quality
of the resources. The experiments involved free -flying bees who visited the outdoor lab regularly and were rewarded for their participation with sugar water. The results were very encouraging as the bees demonstrated the ability to link symbols with numbers to identify specific Arabic and Roman numerals, including the number zero. They further showed that they are capable of solving problems with quantities and to add and subtract, providing a basis for performing more
abstract mathematics. This work suggests that interspecies communication is possible because creatures with complex social and or brain structures understand mathematics. In fact, scientists who study bees have learned to read the waggle dance and to understand where their resources are based on the dance they're doing. Therefore, it could serve as a form of universal communication through which information can be shared and an understanding
can be achieved. Because of cultural barriers, coupled with the time and space of communication distances, some scientists believe that it's important for us to show possible ETs that our civilization communicates with multiple other species. which may be the very basis of establishing peaceful relations. Wow, let that settle in for a minute while we jump into our conversation with a hobby gone too far. I am so happy to welcome our guest today, Song Lee. How are you, Song?
Excellent, excellent. It was so nice meeting you at the expo. I was going to say we met recently at the Expo and we had a great conversation, enough that we're going to do it again here today. And we won't get into all that detail. But but it's good to be back with you. Here's the teaser I'm going to throw out for everybody. Beekeeping hobby gone crazy or gone too far or gone nuts or gone something. Whoever thought, you know, just beekeeping. You get the bees, next thing
you squeeze honey, right? No. Nobody told me. Nobody warned me. Well, that's what this show is all about, which is the love of bees. And some people fall in love and they fall really in love. And that's where you've gone. Anyway, we'll get into all that in a minute. Before we do, let's tell people a little bit about like where you live and how you got into beekeeping. So I live in Cache Valley, Northern California,
East Bay. When we moved to this property, we changed the whole backyard, the raised beds and planting fruit trees and so forth. And then my wife was complaining that her zucchini was not pollinating properly, even though she hand pollinates and so forth. So then, you know, maybe get some bees. All right. Then a Costco was selling the kit, having a smoker, veil, cool thing. You know, if we ever thought of wearing the veil on it.
And then Some people who whom I buy the fruit tree from I saw the bees on the backside of the property So I think I asked him. Hey, could I
get some bees? Sure, okay So then next year in May we picked up the bee and then he said yeah check the bees once a week I don't know what I was looking at but we did one thing that is that stuck on my mind was after all these years that is that bee was very aggressive mean feisty maybe he was because I didn't know how to handle maybe genetically was feisty but anyway but you got stung every time we open it up so I guess it is what it is right it goes with the territory
yeah how many years ago was this this was a nine years ago okay and by the way Most of us are at a point where it is our spouses are saying your hobby is out of control. But for you, your wife got you started. Well, the thing is, I had no idea it's going to gone this far, this much. After we got that, she was very happy. Pollination was fantastic. But five months later bees were gone. I said, oh, this is a little different. So then I started looking into it, taking classes
and so forth. They ended up UC Davis, the master beekeeper program. And that was a game changer, learning all the scientific way of doing a beekeeping at the classroom setting. And that was apprentice level. And after that, it just took off. And then I joined the Alameda County Beekeepers Association.
and going there meeting other beekeepers attending meetings and learning from the speakers and then we had the swarm list hotline that is people call in for the swarm and then you can sign in and then we get a notice if we have a participant want to get go get the swarm and i started participating on it that thing really took off Most hobbyists are at a level where they start with a couple of hives and maybe get up to four or five. And if their hobby's gone a little crazy, maybe they've
got eight or 10 or 11. Where are you at right now? I was about 100. Or more. Now you're understanding hobby gone too far. Where do you keep that many bees? So first I started, okay, I think I can handle five hives. And then the end of a couple of years later, it turned into like a 30 highs. You know, I think I can manage 30. And then caught up to about 50. So much you can have, you know, have it on a little small property. So I was diversifying the investment, so to say, start
to spreading out. And I'm a dry cleaner by the trade. And I've been doing a dry cleaning business for almost about 45 years. So at the time, I was thinking maybe some other customer may host my bees in their backyard. And I read it. I watched it somewhere. They were just hosting idea. That's great. So then I asked them, hey, can you host some of the bees? And starting from one, two. And you don't have to do anything. And whenever I harvest honey, you got to have some kind of
lure, right? You get 20 % of the honey. In other words, you get 10 frames out. I give you a fattest honey frame to them. Who's going to say no? All right, because you don't live on a big farm or anything, right? No, no. This is an urban area. My property is about 10 ,000 square feet, and then it's just not... It's an urban area. There's not much space. There's so much you can keep the bees in one property. There's probably even regulations in your city about how many you can
have on your property. That would be kind of a normal thing. Now you have a full -time business that you operate, the dry cleaners. How in the world do you have time to check all these bees and take care of them? I learn about time management. So then place those host bees five to ten minutes from the dry cleaner. So lunch hour, I go up Monday, Tuesday. Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and then Saturday, and then we can take care of my bees and so forth. So it takes one hour,
two hours every day. I didn't waste my time driving, traveling, just right down the street to different drug logistically placed so there would be bees not that crowded in the area. All right. Now, one of the side effects most of us call it a benefit. With that many bees, you're going to end up with a lot of honey. But you're only a hobbyist, okay? In my opinion, that means you're not doing this as a business venture. Otherwise, you'd be the size of a sideline or working your
way towards being a commercial beekeeper. Yes. What do you do with all this honey? Well, first, when I harvest first one, I didn't want to give it away at all. This is my treasure. I'm keeping it forever. But as time goes by, the volume goes up. Two years ago, the maximum that I got was about 3 ,000 pounds, which is, that's astronomical number as a hobbyist. So I was thinking people keep asking, and people find it out in the community. Hey, you doing bees? What do they ask next? Do
you have a honey? So then I start modeling it, and then place it on the cleaners, and the people picking up dry cleaning. Oh yeah, can I get one honey jar? and then start getting the worst are getting out and then become a local. How can you get any localer than that? So you don't have to go to the farmers markets and stuff. You already have a retail location. People get to know it. I think that's awesome. Yeah, they know the source. And then I show my hands and the face like when
I got stung and then yeah. Do you not wear any protective gear? Not most of the time anymore, but Even though I get stung, I don't have any reaction whatsoever at this point. OK, let's go back to one of the first things that you said, which was the first bees that you got were mean and you got stung a lot. That's a problem that some people have. What did you do to solve this issue? So I started learning at the school and then all different types of bees and so forth.
The one other thing that I learned is that the instead of having a certain specific genetics I said locally adapted bees So I figured this guy these bees know my locale climate where to go all of that and Then on top of that start learning about the grafting. I even learned how to do artificial insemination but the selection of the genetics. Whoever has a feisty defensive bees, I learned pinch the queen and then replace with my docile queen. And then time goes by her
daughter is much better. So I have been rearing, I've been using the word I said, I mean rearing the queens that are docile and gentle. So it's been about fifth year that I've been doing. So most bees are pretty gentle and calm. So then whenever I teach people, I teach how to handle with the bare hand. You know, as you know, having weight, a thick leather glove become clumsy and clinking and squishing bees. So this way you have a keyboard that's a treaty. And then also
bees will cooperate. So it's about the genetics. That sounds really easy. It's not for some people if they're very beginners, but isn't it amazing how When you do that you replace that Queen if it's done, right? Within a couple of months the whole hive has changed some of them within a couple days as far as about two weeks Finding out the foragers are the ones stinging the most and their venom is the strongest and their hurts the most and their last defect lasts longer.
So after those forages die off and the new ones coming up with a mother, gentle mother's pheromone and they're pretty calm. So I give you two weeks then after that those guys are really accommodating. All right let's talk a little bit about your bee club because I know that's been a great influence on you. Give me an idea of how you've been involved and what it's done for you and what you've done for them. Of course, finding out in the beginning searching for different, finding out schools
and associations or that. I was surprised that in United States, just about any county has a beekeepers association. So then sometimes I get a call from different parts of the country. First thing I recommend, find a local beekeeper and join. It may seem early, but right now is a great time to order your live bees for 2026 because they do sell out. And because Man Lake is offering a discount for Be Love podcast listeners. Wait, what? I know you're saying live bees, they never
go on sale. Well, they are now. Click on over to Man Lake, order your bees any variety. nukes or packages and anything in the beginner essentials category and when you check out use the code getstartedinbz it's down in the show notes so you don't have to remember for a discount on everything. So get your orders in early and save. So then what I've learned is that we have a common sense about the B's and then we can talk about these problems and issues and the benefits and
the ideas. So then got heavily involved as I was a vice president for about two years and Then this year I was going to take over the club Association as a president, but the personal issue that I wanted to retire So I can do beekeeping for full time. No, just kidding. Just kidding
You're knocking out that hobby door here. You're getting too far So I said, hey, you know, I got some personal it take the dry cleaner to train the new owner and so it's gonna take a little more time then I will come back and take care of it so then what I did suggest was about three years ago why don't we have our own club apiary so then we can have a demonstration the training and exhibition whatever so how I donate my hype And then someone else is so forth. So then I
have been managing the club apiary. As a matter of fact, we just had our first year, Hive Dive. And then one of the colony was exploding. So what I did was I showed a demo res, a demo res split. And then we will do follow up. The last year's splits, how to take care of the, of course,
my test. And then one of the colony that I demonstrated that people want to what happens if you do not take care of the colony and this will happen and the step by step follow through all the way down to a laying worker situation people can see they look at it this is there's a brood okay what kind of brood yeah it's a brood no those are male drones and you see the pattern here kind of random this is called laying worker situation
and they get to see the, oh. So it's really rewarding to share my knowledge and experience with the members. You learned fast. Nine years sounds like a long time, but in beekeeping, that's kind of new as far as the learning curve, because we can be learning for 50 years and still have so much more to learn. Is it hard to find all the beekeeping supplies that you need out in your area? Not at all. Not at all. We have a local in Berkeley. There's a biofuel oasis. They
sell Man Lake stuff. They're at their price, which is bad. Sometimes in their area, you just go down there, just pick it up. And then, but me, I love Man Lake. That is only hour and a half drive, hour 20 minutes to be exact. It's just like a little kid go in a candy store. You just go in. just look around and I saw one extract they said price of $15 ,000. Okay someday I took a picture someday I may have one but who knows.
Well I know where we met at the expo was at the Man Lake booth and you mentioned to one of the head people there that you dropped like 10 grand the last time you were in their store so they see you coming and I'm sure appreciate it very
very much. think a few minutes ago you said three thousand pounds of honey a year that's a ton and a half that's a lot of honey so what do you do for extraction well i use um well again this is totally one main show someone i think you asked me do you have any helper says like excuse me do i need a helper your wife should be helping she started this whole thing Getting into the hype, it brings me to a totally different world.
It's like a meditation. Working with the bees, watch how they grow, and then you got to think and then prepare for next time. And on top of that, you know what it devolves into? Social media. One day, I went to an extraction. I do a lot of cutouts. And because of your name gets out there locally in the community, people call it an issue. Not only the honeybees, the yellow jackets, wasps, you name it. Anything flying, they call me song. This is the situation. What
can I do? So I went to cut out this house and then this owner's daughter kept talking to me. Mr. Lee, Mr. Lee, I think you should do TikTok. You should. She just... So I said... TikTok? No, that's for the kids. No, thank you. No, thank you. And she was persistent. And second day after I finished, okay, you win. So we sat down and she went through the whole process how to go about a TikTok. And then 30 minutes later, okay, I think I got it. So I came home. This is during
the COVID. About five years ago, then... you know laying around playing with the phone then just start posting stuff one two three four five the fifth one that i put on this was about 10 o 'clock in the morning so i went to work and no one time i checked it said 10 000 views whoa nice and then two o 'clock i checked it 50 000 views And by the time I get off work, he was running about 100 ,000 views. So I went to my buddy's house and then, hey, listen, this is
what's happening. And then he called, he was still laughing. He called his kids, come here, come here. They looked at it and they go, dad, dad, his video is going viral. I said, what do you mean viral? Somebody's sick? They were saying that his video is going to hit million tomorrow. Excuse me? Ah, you've got to be kidding me. So I got up six o 'clock, checked it, two million views. What was in that video? It was just honey on capping with a hot knife. That's it. That's
it. And then that was not even my video. It was my friend's, my Vigo. and he's a commercial he's doing a business with taking care of someone's bees and when he was on capping i was mesmerized the way he's doing it so i videotaped it okay and then i asked for permission can i put this on yeah go ahead and put it on up to this now it hit 160 million Jews Get out of here. All right, where do people find you on social media? I'll stick it down in the show notes, too. Okay.
TikTok and Facebook is Sung Lee the B Charmer. So S -U -N -G -L -E -E the B Charmer. Yeah, the B Charmer. And then there's a funny story on that, too, is I didn't make that name. I did now. When I posted stuff in our San Lorenzo community, They made the name. The whisper is too common. No, we call you a beach hammer. And then it became a beach hammer. I like it. Like a snake charmer. Yeah. And then what I learned about ASMR, which is satisfying, I guess it was satisfying to people.
So that similar one hit about 15 million views, 30 million views. And then now I put out like a removing bees, swarms, 1 million views, 100 ,000 views. So I said, okay, so then maybe I can challenge on a YouTube channel. So I moved on to YouTube and that is challenging. At the expo, I was sitting at the Lawrence Edwards session, two of them, and second one was the social media. And I was having a hard time with the YouTube channel. Here's the thing. TikTok is entertainment.
YouTube is mostly how -to. My mind is mostly satisfying. This is what I did. But YouTube is not working. So then I'm sitting at the Lawrence Diaz session and he gave me an answer. Problem -solving. Just one sentence. Aha! I knew it was how -to about problem -solving. That's the word I'm... what I need to do. People have a question. People have a problem. I need to show what I know how to solve that issue. So after the session, I went up to Lawrence and said, thank you so
much. You gave me the answer what I'm looking for. And I took a picture with him. I love it. Yeah. So you're now the king of all social media. I had no idea you were such a big star when we were talking the other day. It wasn't meant to be. Celebrity all the way. All right. Anyway, we'll have a link if people want to look at some of that. We'll talk about a whole bunch more, but I know you have a fun, wild and crazy beekeeping
story. Let's jump to that right now. Okay. So one of the most, I remember the phenomenon, the incident was that a lot of club members keep saying that song. have a pickup truck or a van. Well especially if you're catching swarms and doing cutouts, you're transferring Bs from point A to point B. So what do you transfer them in? BMW. You mean a B -M -W? Yes, B -M -W. It was meant to be. So I you know put in uh sometimes the back mostly backs it. My truck is a full
of gears. So I want to use it in the back seat and sometimes I carry about two or three boxes. I squish it in about three or four boxes by next to the passenger seat, so forth. But sometime, one time, I was moving the bees and then I thought I sealed it properly. It was not. You know, all they need is a quarter of an inch gap, right? Bees start coming up. Probably in the beginning, I would have scared. I mean, I would be freaking out. But I said, okay, calm down. Okay, we'll
get there. Okay, so then what happens when you
stop at the red light or stop sign? People see and they're honking at me Let's make sure people understand what they are seeing because I've had this happen in a car before The bees come out they head for the windows and they will coat the windows because they want to get out to the sunny place So I'm imagining you you come up to a stop sign in your beamer and All people can see is bees all over the windows For all they know the whole inside is completely full
of bees too. And then what do they do? You mean the bees or people? The people they're still honking and pointing at me. So like you are you
crazy? So I said okay yeah just stick well you're not gonna roll the windows down the bees are gonna fly out no you know i don't want to lose them so i say just stay put stay put we get there soon well the nice thing that i found in those situations is usually the bees aren't aggressive i've never been stung that way before they're just around the windows and want to get out and whatever have you been okay that way oh yeah i've been fine just people get landing on me
and her face and so forth but just just make sure I see it. It doesn't distract my driving, but I usually try to get there as soon as possible. So then I'll open it up and then unload the bees, get them in a safe place. Anyways, I don't want to go too far. And we totally do not recommend this. No. This is not safe. We're not recommending this in any way shape or form but hey beekeepers I'll bet it's happened to you too. It's happened to all of us it seems like. So I think the key
is don't freak out. Do not freak out. If you think you're gonna freak out gently pull to the side of the road and get out of your vehicle because if you freak out something bad's gonna happen so keep your cool. So for their reason, but it doesn't happen all the time. But whenever I transport or someone has taken a make sure I double triple seal, make sure there's no leakage of the bees and the lesson learned. I'm just picturing this. I wish you had pictures. I wish
the people had taken pictures. That'd be good for your next TikTok by the way. Well, actually it's on it. Okay. Yeah, so whenever it happens, I put the camera out and then, okay, guys, you know, stay put. All right. I'm going to go check out your TikToks. Before I let you go, I want to hear some other advice for hobby beekeepers. What have you got? Well, first of all, I would recommend to try to get into the hive as many
as possible, because this is the skill. You may know all the knowledge in your head, but if your hand, your body, coordination, your eyes, if it doesn't develop your skill, you're not going to get any better sooner. I figure I check about my hubs at least about 2 ,000 times a year. Why my skill has gotten better? Because of a number. If you have one or two hubs, you may check about 20, 30 times a year, that's about it. Even though people say it may bother, but this is a learning
curve. You got to pass that stage to get better. And then number two, a lot of recording, but also for me was one of the best thing helped was the taking a lot of photos and videos. So then later I can review something that I missed. When I look at it, that's what it was. And then I can study. later and then find the solution or what is the recognition so that will help.
Then then also having your B buddies and the mentors and ask questions and then you get least intellectually you understand that with that base and practice and practice and practice. One of the things that I'm not very good at is
taking notes. is having some kind of a little journal out with me in the bee yard and writing down you know here's what's going on with this hive and here's one I traded this one and etc. Do you have some kind of a good system for that because that's a lot of hives to keep track of. Yeah maybe you can have a phone those are some of the gans that I saw they came out. You can
record your voice. as you're going through, record all the frame number one, there's a honey, frame number three, I see the chop root, something, or you say, if you can record a chop root, it's fine, but something dead bees in the dried out, and I don't know what it is, and so forth. So having a recording movie will help. And in the beginning, I had a app, and then every time I have to get on the phone and connect to the internet,
and then recording, and so forth. But later, it's become so many cumbersome so what I did was on top of the high box put a big white strip on them and then start writing down date what I saw and then on that what I need next time need a super or need food. When you say a strip do you mean like a painter's tape or something
like that? Something like that yes. So I bought it from Uline there's a white two and a half inch wide the white tape on it so that I can strip it and then lay it on the one side and then start writing on with the marker but over time that thing fades so I'm gonna make a trowel which is gonna have a cover for it so it doesn't fade out but at the convent at expo someone from Canada he had a pen marker it doesn't fade so He mentioned that, so I chased him all the way
to the hallway, grabbed him, excuse me, and then he showed me the pen. I took a picture of it, and then I haven't had the time to order it, but I'm gonna have a 2 .0, but there are a lot of abbreviations on the tape. Let's say QM, Queen Mark, PP, Pollen Patty, SP, Sugar Syrup, SS. things like that. It's a lot of abbreviation, so you don't have to write the whole thing, just
abbreviation. But before I go in, I read it, how it was, and then if I don't have what I needed, I go back and find the ones that I needed, come back, and then dive in. And then after finish, just jot it down, takes about a minute, then we'll take care of that. That is a great tip. I love it. The important thing is Whatever works for you do that you can get an app. You can have a notebook You can do that thing with the tape.
I think is great I met with some beekeepers in Hawaii recently and They had this really cool setup They had a half a dozen hives in what looked like a big shed or a really small barn That didn't have walls on it. So basically it was a big cover to keep the rain off and that kind of thing and one wall of this bee house, I'll call it, was solid, and they had a great big whiteboard up
on it. And then they had numbered each of their hives, and they just, when they were done with the bees that day, they would write notes up on this whiteboard, and that worked great for them. That doesn't work if you don't have a shelter thing like that, but whatever works for you, do it, yep, and just keep track. You know the
pencil? you know carbon dating the pencil phase only half by 100 years so I see in the beginning I see I use the pencil and then start writing all the side of the box and I still have them then I read it oh my god this is what I did that's funny it just way to find keep track of things your your bees and then you keep up with which is very important All right, Song Lee, it's been a ton of fun. I can't wait to visit you next time I'm out in Northern California. And get
some dry cleaner, honey. I hope that's not your brand. Well, thank you so much. It's been so much fun and pleasure, especially meeting you. You know how we met? Yes. We met just from Convention Center to the hotel. I didn't want to wait for the car, bus. Two gentlemen was walking. I said in the dark back to the hotels at the end of one of the days at the expo and we got chatting and one thing led to another. Yep here we are. Yeah anyway good to see you keep in touch. All
right thank you so much. Thanks again for joining us on Bee Love Beekeeping presented by our great friends over at Man Lake. Hey and don't forget to order your bees! And a shout out to Vita B Health for their support. Vita's Varroa Control Ranger products includes Epistan, Epigard, and now Varroxan. Extended release, Oxalic Acid Strips. Thank you so much guys. If you haven't yet, please subscribe and follow the show, tell your friends about it, and click on over to BeLoveBekeeping
.com to sign up for our free newsletter. If you have a guest suggestion or topic that you'd like discussed on the show, shoot me an email, eric at Be Love Beekeeping dot com. And remember, if you're not just in it for the honey or the money, you're in it for the love. See you next week.