#422 Dr. Jordan Peterson's wife Tammy is becoming Catholic! The Quest for Eternal Truth and Love As Expressed Through the Body

And St Athanasius , an early church father and the doctor of the church , said the son of God became man so that we might become God . You know , I bake a while . I guess it is , but I bet you , most of us , are a bit disconnected from this divine life that these saints are pointing us to .

Yet St John Paul II said there's an echo of this story , of this divine life that we're created for , inscribed in each human heart , in your human heart , and if you put on a proper lens , if I put on a proper lens , we can get in touch with this echo within us in such a way that we have that moment .

See , that's the genus of St John Paul II's theology the body . It connects our lived experience of life to the gospel in such a way that our life takes on a whole new meaning and helps us answer those big questions that our whole culture is so confused about today . Who am I ? What's my purpose ? Why would we create it ? Male and female ?

How do I find happiness here on earth ? How do I find love that satisfies forever ? Hey , glad you're with me . I'll be right back for today's episode . I am with my good friend , linda Piper , in Pennsylvania and we are getting ready for Halloween . As we record this , this is a Tuesday , even though it'll go live .

If I'm lucky and I get all my editing and different things done on everything , it'll go live tomorrow . Linda , I hear that your grandkids are dressing up as saints huh For Halloween .

Here we are , we're standing in history , fallen man , but we've also are in this offer of redemption that Christ came in , that collectively came in , and here's the battle going on today that we see all over is are those of us that have accepted that redemption ? And so salvation ? Redemption is collective , it's offered for everybody .

Salvation , though , is individual . You have to say yes . St Augustine you mentioned earlier , right before we jumped on Linda . St Augustine would say the God who created you without you is not going to save you without you . You have to say yes , and you can see the battle going on right now .

So much hatred huh With Hamas and Israel , but also hatred on the streets of Chicago , people not seeing each other as human persons . And that's what happens when you , when you detach from God himself , from divine life and love , and you'll go out and murder not only each other , but you'll murder children , gouge out eyes , rape .

It's amazing , right , and it's going on all over . I mean , we have the world's elite that get involved in these kind of darkness , don't they ? And so , anyway . So here we are , historical man and John Paul . He's pointing and , of course , just following Jesus to the beginning .

What was the model , this model of perfect love that a man and a woman express this perennial attraction to each other , where the two become one , open to life , become three ? This is just as a sacramental sign of the inner life of the Trinity . That's what we were created for in the beginning , before sin . This is what we were expressing .

We were expressing , actually , the other side of the eschaton , where we're going , which is the spousal meaning of the body , this meaning of the body , and sometimes we have to sit on this . What does it mean to be a man ? What does it mean to be a woman ?

Well , it means to pour yourself out to another person in love and in truth , and to become unified in union and communion with that person , to give your life away , and this is what God does .

This is what Jesus does on the cross , this is he's the bridge that God sent to bring us into eternal union and communion with Him , where we're not going to be married or given away in marriage .

Marriage is just a sign , and so if you're struggling in your marriage and you're thinking , oh my gosh , my spouse is not my definitive fulfillment , well , god bless you . He's not supposed to be and she's not supposed to be . God is supposed to be and that starts now . Eternity doesn't mean tomorrow .

Eternity means forever , and every time you have a problem , just remember that problem may be a gift , because it may be an invitation to turn to God and say God , what is going on in my life ? And he'll say well , what's going on in your life is me , and focus on me , and I will give you , give us this day , our daily bread .

Linda , you know I'm going to bring in Jordan Peterson's wife in here in a second , but before I do I'm going to throw this back to you and see what you got out of this audience in general .

So , remember , we talked about the triptych , and so original man , historical man and eschatological man , and that sounds all . What are you talking about ? And yet the Pope says let's just look for a moment , because this is all related and it's all a part of what he identifies as theology of the body .

What is that meaning of our bodies , which translates really into what is the meaning of life ? We find ourselves in a body , we find ourselves as persons , and in the beginning , that meaning of our body as persons meant that we were designed for union and communion with another person and , as you said earlier , that great gift to give ourselves away .

And so if we don't have an understanding of that as we are living day to day , it gets really rough . Okay , so any marriage , even great marriages , are going to have difficulties and if , in fact , we feel like this marriage is supposed to be my end , all be , all , you know I'm going to suffocate the other person , because that isn't possible .

St Augustine , with his other famous quotes , says you know , our hearts are restless until they rest in you , and that talking to God , and that's an indication that any other human person is not going to be able to fulfill us completely and satisfy that longing , that yearning that we all feel like there's .

There's something more going on here and the Pope says yes , there is . Let's connect it to our destiny and where we're going . And that's eschatological man and he's focusing in this audience to that .

We cannot know exactly what the eschatal man will be like from having experienced it , because no one's you know come back and told us what it is , but and we can't kind of just rationally think through it . But there are things that , based on what Jesus has told us , give us deep understanding of what this new existence in the future world will look like .

And he says it will be our total fulfillment , that ultimate fulfillment of that spousal meaning of the body that we have the image of here on earth through marriage . But we won't be married in the Eschaton , in our destiny , and he kind of flushes that out . So it's kind of exciting to look at . What does all that mean for us day to day ?

This is Trinitarian again , if you think about the Trinitarian image , that God is not a sexual being and that's what happens in the Eschaton . But God is still the Father and Jesus is still the Son and the Holy Spirit is still begotten , the love between the Father and the Son , the person of the Holy Spirit .

So in the angels , don't have , don't have bodies , right , and so they're purely spiritual , even though we are going to have a body , but it's going to be a glorified body . So what does that mean ? Right To pour yourself out to another person ? Again , you look up at the cross . You know Jesus was not married in heaven , and I mean on earth .

And so what does that mean ? Right Not to be married on earth ? You know our blessed mother was fruitful , she was filled with God , but yet she would , she , she never consummated that with Joseph , you know Joseph , you know again , could have been in , probably most likely was a , was a virgin right Himself , you know , was a chased . It basically a chased .

A celibate man living in union and communion with our blessed mother and God had to fulfill that union and communion .

So when you start to think , oh my gosh , you know I'm not going to have sex with somebody , well , I'll tell you what you know at the end of the day , you know it's you would think , in our culture today it's if you don't have sex , then you're just going to wilt and die , right .

And and that's because we're so disconnected from God that we're trying to find our fulfillment in a physical act , you know which , which , in reality ? You know it's almost a , you know a , an experience , right when , when the two become one , it's almost an out of body experience .

So it's a powerful experience , but it's supposed to be united in union and communion with God . If that gets twisted and distorted , you end up with a pornographic culture , you end up with a rape culture , you end up with a culture where nobody sees the other person .

You're just trying to get that physical experience and so when you disconnect from there , it's a very dangerous thing . So much better to start to open your heart to the eternal love , be filled with that life and love .

And then , if you're lucky enough to have a great relationship with your , with your wife , and one that John Paul said , men , take your shoes off before you make love to your wife , because you're entering onto Holy Ground .

You understand that that's a beautiful thing , because you're filled with God's grace and you're pouring this into your , your beloved spouse that's receiving this and pouring this back . But even that is just a little tiny , tiny , tiny , little tiny taste of what the saints and the mystics would describe as this eternal fire that God has for us Right .

In a long term marriage , you find that you know that self giving of yourself , the intimacy is a part of it , but that self giving when the baby is crying and you're exhausted , and you know the other steps in the help or the laundry needs to be folded or name it you know there's a gazillion things that go on .

All of those things here , you know I'll sweep the floor and you go sit down . That's all making love , jack , and to me that's the , the concreteness of what it means to be self-gift , to give yourself .

And it extends way beyond marriage to the extended family , you know , to the children of course , first , and then beyond that , to the grandchildren , siblings , you know , and their troubles in life . And so that's that great communion of saints on earth .

There's something that the Pope states , and I'm pulling from Christopher's West Restatement , but he says that marriage and procreation only give concrete reality through the meaning of being male and female in that union , in the dimensions of history . But in other words , earthly marriage is actually preparation for the heavenly marriage . The marriage of the . Lamb .

You see we talked about those bookends of marriage and that kind of set off a bell in my head .

Everything that we experience as historical man truly is preparation for that heavenly marriage and we either accept it and , you know , take in the grace that we're destined to share in the divine life , or we don't , and we see the results of that decision as well .

What we're talking about here is a battle and a struggle , and everybody knows that . But at the end of the day , you keep opening up within this battle . And here's how you know this . You have to sit in silence . You know you have to sit in prayer .

When you do these things and you open yourself up and you ask God to come in , you ask Christ to fill your heart , you ask Him to leave the Holy Spirit with you , right as he goes to the Father and bridges this gap . You know so Jesus is the gap himself .

He's the bridge between this life that we're living now and eternal life , and you know that only through prayer and accepting Him , because you have the power . You know Jesus didn't come for sin management . If you don't step into this story to your point , you either accept it or you don't . If you don't step into the story you'll never know .

You have to accept the power . And here's the difference , linda . It is power . The power is efficacious . I mean , it's grace is real . A body and a soul without grace at the fault position is sin and death . That's what it is .

It's when you have a body and a soul , a human person , filled with grace , you have the potential , only the potential for human flourishing , and you have the potential for freedom and John Paul mentions freedom again . Here Is he often does I want to be free , free to do what , free to give myself away , free .

So I have to be detached , I have to to and not be filled full of sin and just thinking about the next porn movie I'm gonna watch . I have to be free , free to give myself away , not free to grasp and and take right . So then , how do we do that ?

Well , that's everything we're talking about today , linda , is to be kind to someone that's not kind to you to do . Maybe you said sweep the floor , maybe sweep the floor when the other person's not sweeping the floor . And now you're counting . Are we 50 50 here in this relationship , or do I just do it ?

And of course you know people can take advantage of you . So you know , I mean you have to discern all this , but again , you know there , there , this , this is an emptying . And if you can empty yourself and the little ways , like st Trez of the Sue would say , in these little ways You'll find yourself in the day-to-day details of of life .

You don't have to just be in a church , you don't have to just go off . You'll find it when those grandkids come over and at night , when you're ready to Rest a little bit , and you'll give yourself away and into them , even when you don't want to , and you will find a gift .

You will find something that happened in your heart and you'll wake up the next day and you'll go wow , that was really something so , and so said this , so and so gave me this . I had an opportunity to say something to them that was on my mind for Months and I never did .

And now , all of a sudden , it just opened up a playing , some silly game with a child who wanted to say hello to me , and then I thought , oh my god , that child could have did anything and she came over to see me and you go whoa , what a gift , right .

You know , and that can give us sense in me is saying oh , you know , I'd really rather just be alone and read my book , or whatever and here's see it as an opportunity and I'm I'm not saying I achieve that all the time , but it is something I work at and you're absolutely right that on the other end of it you do find some peace , some joy , some

satisfaction there . I mean , I hope truly that we're building memories that when we're long gone our Grandchildren will remember oh , grandma used to do this or that with me and it'll be a happy memory for them . Because Sadly it the way families are split today and even my own .

I don't have Great memories of my own grandparents based on how things worked out for us , and so I don't really have a role model .

But yet I'm hoping that that is going to be a part of it for my own grandchildren and Each of us can look at where we are today and see , have I opened my heart to that grace and to see that what comes along that looks like an irritation might really be a blessing .

And you know , I think maybe like what you were , we were talking about Jordan Peterson and you know some of his comments kind of fit into that idea yeah , so .

It is like a grain of mustard seed which a man took and sold in the garden and it grew and became a tree and the birds of the ear made nests in its branches . So here it is right , we plant the seed and that seed grows within us so we allow Christ to come into our heart .

The seed is watered by all of those things that we're talking about , often by sacrifice , often by suffering , certainly by consciously giving yourself away .

It's important for people that are listening , it's important for us , linda , to take what we're talking about today to heart , actually allow that seed to grow and trust that God will grow that seed within us and then within the world . And again he said to what shall I compare the kingdom of God ?

It's like leaven which a woman took in , hidden , three measures of meal till it was all leaven . So you take a little leaven , you take this spirit of God . You take this love for Christ in your heart and it will continue to grow , and we don't know exactly how that's going to happen .

We leave that to God , right , but we we experience this again and everything that we're talking about right now .

I retain who I am in my personal identity , and yet it will be joined with all these others and it gives me this idea of kind of this blossoming . You know that will be this great experience and you know it also crossed my mind that you know we will all be joined in that connection of love and adoration for God , seeing him face to face .

We'll all be seeing him face to face . And yet what are we seeing now with the wars and the groups and the demonstrations ? It's like this coalition of the opposite , like it's the hatred that is coalescing us here , as we collectively , in some cases have cost God out of the picture . You see , yes .

And it's that distortion , that perversion that Satan is able to do with everything good , and we need to pay attention to that .

And when you , you know , there was an image I saw yesterday it happened in some part of Russia where this crowd of mostly men ran through an airport looking for a plane that was supposed to have landed from Tel Aviv in Russia , looking to , I guess , to kill in name , and you know , and you just go , holy cow .

But you look at the college campuses , and so , to your point , you know , in another analogy , you know , you're talking about the saints that Jesus said , you know there will be many rooms right in heaven , otherwise I wouldn't tell you about this . In other words , there's rooms for everybody up there . To your point , we're all going to have a space .

We're not going to , you know , be just this blob of nothingness . We are going to be subjective , people , persons .

Can you imagine being in this incredible union of all of masculinity and all of femininity coming together in this beautiful drawing , a perennial attraction within God , and meeting all of these powerful saints and these beautiful people that we've known through the years ?

You know , and to your point , you know , look what happens when you reject it , that tree , it becomes a tree of Satan that grows . You know that leaven now destroys everything . Right , it's a leaven from evil .

That's a battle between good and evil right in our own hearts and and those little things that we can do grow into that are that leaven and that seed .

Right , this is where young people learn how to love , and so that , in essence , I see it as the next step , if you will , of preparation for the communion of saints in heaven . And so where did Satan step in ? Our families have just been attacked to the point . Where could you describe your family as a school of love ? That , I'm asking anyone .

You know your own family . Is it a school of love ? Are the children learning love or are they not ? And I think , if we're asking , where does that hate should come from ? I think it fills the vacuum if the love isn't there .

If you know , the family isn't working towards being that school of love , and the Pope warned us about that , I think , in his exhortation to the family , his writing on the family , and so , as you and I always look at well , what's practical about these audiences and what we can say you know marriages and looking at how I'm self-gifted in my marriage , but take

it to my next level with my family , my raising my kids to love others , or do I harp on the problems and the distinctions ? Do you see what I'm saying ?

That all of that , too , is preparation , and I think you know , if we're not loving and we're filled with hatred , we're preparing ourselves for someplace quite different than seeing God face to face in the eschaton .

He's done some incredible things and also had many of his own struggles with the painkillers and became addicted to certain painkillers , and so he's had his ups and downs , but incredible to listen to , always beautiful .

It's written some wonderful books , and so , anyways , tammy Peterson has announced that she began the process of becoming Catholic and will be initiated into the Catholic Church next Easter .

So it's very exciting news actually to me because I always thought , you know , jordan Peterson is going to come into the faith because he was a he would call himself maybe an atheist at one time , then an agnostic , but always a searcher for the truth , so more of an agnostic . And then he said you know years ago already , that I believe in God .

I don't know what that means to me . Well , his wife , tammy , is putting some concrete parameters around this , and so she shared her journey of faith and she began RCIA , which is the right of Christian initiation of adults . So just briefly , the 62 year old Tammy Peterson grew up as a Protestant . Peterson says her memories of her .

Now we're going to talk about the mustard seed here , we're going to talk about the leaven . We're going to talk about searching for the truth . We're going to talk about marriage pointing to heaven . All of this within this story . Peterson says that her memories of her 107 year old Polish Catholic great-grandmother praying the rosary here's the seed , here's 11 .

And then her own search for God in the meaning of life , really began in the midst of serious health issues in 2015 . After a medical scan of biopsies of her kidney , peterson's doctor delivered the news that she had a type of kidney cancer that was fatally gave her 10 months to live .

Despite surgeries to remove the tumors and countless tests , peterson's health worsened to the point where she was weighed 90 pounds , suffered her ear loss , and Peterson credits then the prayers and support of her dear friend Queenie Yu for her perseverance and strength during that time . Yu is also a Catholic convert brought Peterson a rosary .

Now here's from her grandmother , right Blessed by the Pope , a pamphlet on how to pray the rosary and an image of our lady and the infant Jesus . For the next five weeks , peterson and Yu prayed the rosary together every day in the hospital and Peterson later remarked that you , through her illness , I found God and through you , sharing that with me .

And what could be possibly better than knowing your own creator ? She found the creator here . Peterson also reflected on the role of prayer at the time and it would alleviate some of my pain . I'd wake up at night and I'd pray the Lord's prayer until I went back to sleep . I didn't allow myself to worry . I prayed pretty much all night unless I was sleeping .

Her prayers and prayers of others brought about a miraculous benefit and an effect On the fifth day of a Novena to St Jose Maria Escriva , who's the founder of Opus Dei , when Peterson had surgery scheduled to address a complication relating to her cancer , her doctors discovered that the medical issue had resolved itself . Her surgery was canceled .

She was discharged from the hospital . The National Catholic Register reports that before their wedding , tammy and Jordan both committed to a marriage anchored in truth , jordan said of his wife's conversion . This is an extension what's happened to her in recent years of that vow she took when she first decided we're gonna get married .

It's crucial thing to commit to the truth . And so she was searching for that truth and she was searching for what the meaning of life was within her marriage . And here she goes , always searching , always searching , always searching , and God leads her to a person that's really searching . God is not gonna let you go , he's gonna give you opportunities .

And there she found that opportunity . And then , finally , jordan Peterson comments that his belief that married couple even they're searching for the truth and they remain unified by listening , negotiating , sparring , playing , discussing things together , but finally by caring for each other with love and by having children and then grandchildren .

And so you have this image again of the Amago Day , this , in the beginning , the model of the sacramental love . But that's never gonna be enough , linda , because we're gonna all die and that death is . We don't want the second death , we want that death just to be availed .

That opens before us and allows us to come into this beatific vision that we're talking about . It doesn't have to be fearful , but we have to open ourselves up to this truth . And she found that all within that story there , everything that I think , everything that we're talking about today .

In paragraph three , if any folks are following in the book , towards the end of paragraph three , the Pope says this it's thus evident that the meaning of being with respect to body , male and female , in the future world should be sought outside of marriage and procreation .

But there's no reason to seek it outside of that which , independently from the blessing of procreation , derived from the very mystery of creation and therefore also forms the deepest structure of man's history on earth , given that this history was deeply co-penetrated by the mystery of redemption . So what stands out to me ?

It's right there in Tammy's story the mystery of creation and the mystery of redemption . How much more practical can we get ?

It's going to be a battle , we all know that already , but it's all worth it at the end . And look around what happens if you don't embrace that . You can see all those things that we mentioned , right . So , hey , God bless you , Linda . Thank you so much .