7. The Verdict

Hi, I'm the Owaishaw. You may know me as the former host of Visibilia. Well, I'm back with a new show called Proxy. It's about the niche emotional questions that no one in your life can relate to. That's where Proxy comes in. I'll connect you to researchers and strangers with shared experience, and you'll get to ask all your questions. We're kicking things off with a three part series on the emotional and mental health toll of layoffs. Subscribe to Proxy wherever you get your podcasts.

This is episode seven of Because the Bus belongs to Us. I'm Jesse, I'm Holly, and i am James.

That's right. For this final episode, Jesse and Holly must face a panel of queers who will decide once and for all if Bruce Springsteen is a queer icon. Who am I? You ask, well, I am an actual, legitimate queer in stem I've spent the last decade working in engineering in life science, building robots basically because seeing is Jesse and Holly have spent the entire series saying that

Hello, my name is Jesse. I U say then pronouns.

I'm a tourist, I am an audio producer, youth worker and perform drag as butcher Springsteen and I have been a proper Bruce fan for the last ten years. He helped to drag me out of the closet of my own brain, and that is why I feel qualified for this panel.

Amazing and now, Holly.

Hi, I'm Holly, my pronouns are there. She I'm a Leoh. I'm also a zine maker and a comic artist. I'm the author of the Me and Bruce zine series, and I also made the Looking for Bruce graphic memoir. I've been a proper Bruce fan for about twenty five years and he was my first ever queer friend, and that's why I'm qualified to be part of this investigation.

Thanks, seeing as you've said multiple times over the series that you're doing a proper scientific investigation into Bruce Springsteen's queer icon status. This episode is taking the form of an academic peer review. I have collected a panel of leading experts in this field, queer icondom. They will be presented with Holly and Jesse's research and be asked to interrogate its aims, purpose, methodology, and the ethics and value of this work. It is my pleasure to welcome that

Current relationship status with Bruce. Hello, thank you for having me. I mean, y'all did your ZOOI X science. I guess I'll give you mine. I'm a kind answer. I'm also a chaotic bisexual living in gay Ass Brooklyn, and I'm from gay ass Atlanta, and I am a journalist covering gay ass shit and my current relationship status with the Boss. I honestly know nothing about Bruce Bringsteen. I don't think I've ever listened to a whole song from beginning to end.

Next, you have Hugh Lemmy. Please tell us about your pedigree and explain your current relationship to the idea of the Boss as a queer icon.

Hi.

My name is ce Lemmy. I'm a writer and co host of the podcast Bad Gays, and as a fully registered and accredited to practicing homosexual, I think it's my right, if not my duty, in fact, to be as judgmental as I please about straight guys. But I do think as a fan of the Boss for two decades or more in good standing, I think I'm yet to be convinced to the queerness of his icon status.

Oh things are heating up. And finally, Joelle Taylor, you know what to do.

Yeah, Man's Joel Taylor, a poet and author, and my latest poetry collection is called Conto and Other Poems. And then Alphabet, which is a novel both look in part of subculture of the eighties and nineties and reveals it to be part of a space of radical friendship and community. If you've seen the Rebel Dykes film, that's the kind

Queer right on.

Happily now, panel, this is not an interrogation. It's not your job to work against Jesse and Holly, but it is your job to uphold them to the standards you see fit. It's also important to note, for the purposes of this study, I'm not investigating if Jesse and Holly can convince you all to love Bruce Bringsteen. I'm investigating whether you can recognize that there is enough evidence from the research that they've done that the Boss has enough weight, bun, gravitas,

Jesse, Yes so, because the best belongs to us.

Is a seven part investigation where me and Holly try and prove with real science that Bruce Springsteen is a queer icon and I guess like the reason that we did it is because we met. We both queer people who loved Bruce Bingstein, and that's how we met and bunded, and then we kind of worked out there were more of us. So this is our love letter to other queer Bruce fans out there.

I think even though at one time both me and Jesse thought we were the only queers in the world that loved Bruce Springsteen or the found meaning in his work, it turns out there are so many of us out there. And through Jesse doing their Butcher Springsteen drag and through me making scenes that felt like it was a way to open up conversations and meet other queer people that also had this obsession with Bruce. And I think QUI

So my name is Clybidels.

I'm a writer and a.

Team maker and I live in Glasgow.

I'm a trans guy in my thirties who has been a fan of Pretty since my late teens. I identified as a CIS straight ish woman throughout my twenties, and throughout those years he provided a very passionate channel to my inner queer and was quite literally the only artist I listened to. There wasn't the same trans mass representation back then as I see now, So even though he was cis and straight, that's not how I considered.

Him, although I'd heard a lot of his more famous songs just in the ethero when I was a child. I think the first album that I dived into was A Darkness on the Edge of Town and it was kind of like a real love at first listen kind of thing. Queerness to me is so much about kind of existing in this in between space and in this like unnamed unknoble space that could go somewhere you don't know where it's going to go, and it's about the

Of and of knowing. It's like a state of unknowing, and I find.

That so much in Bruce's work.

He sparked some deep feelings of me that I know is entirely linked to my queer identity. His seventies twin era, his hyper masculinity in the eighties, his gentle Cowboys, Sauce Wager, as he got older, darkness on the edge of town, backstreets, out in the street, these songs were playing my headphines as I walked along, and I fantasized about having a life, a physical image, and a type of love that didn't feel accessible to me at all, and Bruce was right there with me.

A queer icon to me is someone who articulates something that we can't articulate for ourselves. And like Rosalita, especially the division that's on the Live nineteen seventy five to nineteen eighty five album, it's this like super long, drawn out like it feels like it's leading up to a kind of climax so many times but doesn't quite get there. But when it gets there, it's just like so cathartic, and it's all about like asking a girl out.

I don't listen to him as much anymore that he still has a special place in my heart. I'm an outgay trans man, so I guess he provided a comfort that I don't need in quite the same way anymore, But it'll always be a queer icon to me.

I'll now open the floor for questions from the panel on the aims of the study. Zakiah, what are your questions on this?

Okay, I'm wondering, do y'all have a secret heterosexual agenda trying to flood a queer culture with street people?

I mean, there's already enough straight people flooding queer culture as icons. I don't feel that's that's our agenda necessarily, but we are opening up what that could mean and looking at different types of queer icons.

Why not why not have a plan as Yeah?

No, I think that's like such an important question and something that we've really grappled with across the series. And I guess, like, if we're talking about the aims of the study, I guess the reason we started it is because there are more and more out queer icons who

It's not just us.

It's definitely not just us.

Thank you all. Through your thoughts, Hugh, you seem like a guy who cares about purpose. One are the burning questions on your lips? I appre hearing that.

Well, you don't need to convince me of what Bruce sprint to the table as an artist here, Like his music and his lyrics a specially brought me the same sort of joy and solace and also like a sort of richer deeper understanding of my own emotional life over

Oh say more on that please.

When I was in my late teens and signed to already get into Bruce it was through all these straight CIS white boys my age who I met in the hardcore punk scene, and I come from this like very sort of sort of matcho sporty or you know, football rugby type background, and then suddenly I was surround by all these boys who are like really sensitive and the way that they access their sensitivities and like thinking about their emotional in their life was through Bruce and that's

That's come up loads in the series as well, Like that's I think that's true for me and Holly is like a lot of the people we've bonded with have also been people who aren't queer but.

Have like found something to either felt that they needed to aspire to Bruce's version of heterosexuality or masculinity, and in some ways, depending on who we spoke to. Some ways that was helpful for people, and in some ways that was almost like a punishment, like, oh, I can't live up to that, so I have failed gender somehow, I've failed being myself somehow. So it throws up all these really big questions. And definitely the thing we found in this scientific study is that not one single person

And also, like, it's funny that you said, like, are we at risk of like centering ourselves in this which I would say one hundred percent, yes we are, But like I think maybe that's like something.

That's quite beautiful.

Is like a lot of what we have been thinking about is all of the different creative ways that people find themselves through projecting what they need to on other people with the resources that they have.

Thank you all. Let's move on and discuss the methodology of this investigation. Jesse, can you please briefly summarize the four criteria you said out at the beginning.

Yes, so we looked at a bunch of what we were calling at the time queer icons. Maybe they're just gay icons, which is like you know, Madonnatina Turner, Whitney Share, Brittany people like that. We called them our control group because we're scientists, and we looked at what links them all together so we could try and make a kind of checklist, and we came up with these four points that Bruce would have to fulfill to be a queer icon.

Now.

If they're a musician, they have to have good music, and that we define that by lots of queer people get really good at association as closeted queer teenagers, and so it has to be music that helps to drag you out of years of dissociation. And then we sub genred that by saying you have to be able to cry, dance, and fuck to Bruce Springsteen's music. And then the last one is, obviously, do they have it to other queer people who don't already think they're an icon?

Could they be convinced? And that's why we're here today.

Thanks Jessie. So does the panel agree with these criterias indicative of what a queer icon is? Let's start with Joelle. Do you think you can reduce a queer icon to a list of four check boxes?

I mean, to be honest and it certainly no, absolutely not, but having it explained it actually makes a lot of sense. Really, so I am quite I'm persuaded, Yes you can, I think so. We camp is obviously funds of mental to it, the idea of the underdog as well. I mean, you say, good music. I get you. Obviously he's got to be good or he wouldn't be an extremely parous musician. But just makes my skin all off my body, and I believed, but you know, if it's I guess good music is

To Oh, that's such an interesting question.

I mean, yeah, icon comes from that, doesn't it That whole idea of having icons that have deeper spiritual meaning?

Yeah, Zakiya. Can you name someone for us that you see as a queer icon and do they fill these criteria?

Yeah, I'm I'm thinking of two names. One is kind of like a basic cliche, but it's just the truth. Britney Spears. I just fucking love her, and I would say shell those criteria. She is so canapy, from her looks to just her vibe. I love that she is an unapologetically chaotic high femme and her songs are fucking bangers. It literally makes me feel transcended when I'm on the dance floor. Maybe that's the Poppers, I don't know. Also, I've cried to her songs and I think I think

Rub I love that.

I want to get Bruce up there next to those two people.

The triat.

No Jesse and Holly. Can you convince the panel that Springsteen is still the points in your checklist? Please? Can you take us through your findings? Let's start with chat.

Okay, So camp was the first item on our checklist, and we decided that camp has really an ever changing meaning. So we've gone a little bit further than Susan Suntag's notes on Camp and we've joined that up with more current theories of Butch Camp and Dyke Camp. So, using that as our starting point, we said that Bruce's looks were super camp. Whether it's his seventies twig clok or it's all American look or even some of his more

We had a lesbian fashion historian analyzed some of Bruce's looks and one of the things that she said was it's very gender and I feel like that's a good documentary.

Joelle, what are your thoughts on this?

When you first start, you know that camp has a changing meaning. Where I went up was really darling. I don't think so. When you started to speak, I was thinking, because we never really do look at camp from a diet or but perspective, and I fact, yes, I think you're right. You know you're writing the rules as it were, so you're defining what camp is. Yeah, I agree with you. I agree, And I don't know the lyrics though, and

Originally we had one of our criteria was going to be could you dress up as an icon at Halloween party and somebody else would recognize what that was? But that was kind of too shallow for what we were going for because you could dress up as anybody. It wasn't about something you could dress up as. It was about is there extravagance mixed with authenticity as part of that? And we thought Bruce really ticked that point.

Also, like there are some lesser known Bruce Springsteen looks that we find to be very camp because there's obviously in the eighties, you know, he was like all muscles or bandanas or type blue jeans, which for us also we do kind of look at and be like, oh, that's you know, looks like a lot of butch Kings.

That we've seen in the club.

But there's also you know, there's like in the seventies he was all leather and as in there's a look of his from like more recently that Holly calls his stone bush blues look just beautiful.

The comparison of Katie Lang was really striking. I looked up the two album covers when you mentioned on the podcast and the spitting image of each other.

Yeah, moving on to checklists, point to underdog status, Jesse Go.

One of the things that we've kind of related to in Bruce is that he has this quite critical relationship with the expectations and presumptions based around masculinity, which we see ourselves reflected in because it feels not too far away from the very queer idea of like gender as a performance. And he speaks very beautifully about masculinity in his book and in a lot of his songs.

So that's something that we both felt.

You know, there are struggles in there that are relatable to struggles of some queer people.

There's also just.

Like so many of his songs are about people not understanding you, being stuck in a context, like wishing that you could be you know, there's a very famous line, there's something happening somewhere, baby. I just know that there is this like yearning, and all of those are emotions that queer people I think can kind of get on

Air in New Jersey.

He is obviously a multi millionaire, and so it feels it didn't sit totally right with us to call an extremely rich man an underdog. And we aren't totally sure where he stands on some aspects of politics that are really important to me and Holly, and we've both had experiences of being around other kind of straight male Bruce fans who've made us feel unsafe for like unlike them.

So that was we got a bit unsure at that point.

Yeah, And I also want to just really really stress that doubt and anxiety are absolutely key to this methodology. We spent a lot of time asking ourselves if we were the right people to be doing this, if there was any point in what we were actually doing, if anybody would get something from this. So just to say, as part of this academic peer review, we believe if you're replicating these results for yourself or replicating this investigation,

And then like another point that potentially we thought maybe we'd add on if we did this study again is like we ended up having this day where we were like fucking hell, like do.

We even like Bruce Springsteen?

You know, and like maybe it's like a specifically career experience that the way that we show love sometimes is by like totally tearing apart the people in things that we love in like really over renalizing them and like projecting our own personalities onto people that didn't necessarily ask for that. So that was where we ended really on them on Underdog status is a check point.

Hugh, what are your thoughts on this?

Well, it's funny because the episode Yeah, where you focus on Bruce as an underdog was for me it seemed like you it was one that you were most sort of anxious and critical of both him and also like your own status in his investigations. But to me, it seemed like it was the place where it was the most potential request because searching for this like perfect Bruce and his perfect fans is like, as a perfect sort

Yeah, totally. Yeah, Yeah, it was hard, wasn't it? Because I think that is really beautiful. And then also we were like, is that also a bit diluting in that if anyone can relate to Prouce Springsteen's lyrics, does that make him a queer iconogs that make him a good songwriter?

That's why I think he's a queer Eyeicut.

But I guess like one of our conclusions from that was like, there is enough in his writing.

That allows us to create the.

Icon of our dreams in our little brains, and that that is maybe the same thing that people do with other celebrities too.

Yeah, that this we view this as just one checklist point as well, So viewing this in the context of other things helped us kind of start through those very complicated emotions on that very sad depression bench.

Thanks for the additional adults, Everyone talk to you about your third checklist point good music.

Okay, so we've got a lot to say about music. We wanted to see as an icon. Can his music drag queers back from years of association? And we looked at whether you could cry, dance, or fuck to his music. So in terms of crying, I can cry right now is if the panel would like me to cry enough, But I can. I just want to say I can. And also the most important thing. Straight men also cry to to his music as well. We have a token straight man on the show who talked about feelings of

Agree, Zakia, what do you think about Bruce's music?

I'm sure I've heard Bruce Springsteen's song, but I don't know, but like I don't know well enough to be like, oh, that's Bruce Springsteen, or maybe I like heard it in the background at like CBS. I don't even mean to be shady, that's for it's like, you know, convenience store of music. So my question is as a Bruce Nube who doesn't know his discography, like, if you were to play a song right now, what song would give me that feeling that would make me go, oh, now I get it.

It's a really tough question because he's got such a big body of music. And the one thing I'll say before we answer it is that most of the people we speak to have kind of said that they don't usually listen to the genre of Bruce Springsteen's music. It's like Americana or whatever you want of Carey's not really a genre that a lot of us subjects in the investigation would listen to voluntarily usually, but there's some about

And I mean, I agree with everything Holly said. I will add one other song that we didn't get to talk about in the poocast, which is it's a.

Song called I'm Going Down.

Yes, he does things I'm going down a million times, which obviously, if you want to, you can interpret that.

Yeah, point taken, and I will Actually I just realized one of my favorite songs I love the Chromatics cover of.

What's the one I'm on fire.

I'm on fire. I didn't realize that that was a Bruce song. So now I'm already like feeling my attachment to Bruce like grow Emily. Okay, very nice.

And of course, your last checkpoint is being tested as we speak, isn't that right? Jesse?

Correct?

Our last checkpoint is can we convince a panel of queer people of his queer reckons say this?

Thank you for being here? Only time will.

Tell, Yes, only time will tell. I am so impressed by the vigor I see in the Panels analysis so far, you simply must put your brains on ice. After the break, we're interrogating Jesse and Holly's moral compasses. We're talking ethics. Baby, that's next.

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Platform, and we're back. This is because the boss belongs to us. I'm Jane's the only actual queer in stem to be feature. You're in a seven episode scientific investigation. So far, the panel has tested the studies, aims, purpose, and criteria. Now we're talking epics, baby, Hugh, you can take the lead on this one. What burning ethical questions do you have for our researchers.

I'm going to say what everyone's thinking. Are you really independent minds when it comes to talking about Bruce Springsteen? Are you really approaching this willing to find out at the end that actually it's not a quare eye?

No?

No, I didn't go into this with open hearts and minds. I went into this fully self centered, trying to prove a point, but learning about science along the way.

Well.

Also, Holly, in episode four, you says like really clearly that you that you didn't want to believe that the album Working on a Dream actually exists. You just pretend it doesn't exist, which is obviously a good example of that. But why why put through that album?

Oh wow, this is some gotcha journalism, isn't it Working on a Dream? In my opinion, Working Our Dream is one of Bruce Bringsty's worst albums. It came out, I think it's two thousand and eight or two thousand and nine, just as Obama was being elected. It's very liberal, wishy, washy, vague songs about absolutely nothing. At a time when a political album was needed, he released a very apolitical album and the songs do not bang. They're just really boring.

I don't think I went into this really willing to say that Bruce is not a queer icon, but I will say that maybe one of the things that we've learned along the way is like I think that our definition of queer icon is kind of like molded and changed across the show potentially so it still fits with Bruce. But yeah, I think like ultimately we were like it is maybe good to cherry pick or ignore things because we're creating our own version of Bruce.

And I think also that comes from you know, amazine makers. So a lot of the scenes that I make our cut and pass collage of taken the best bits of things that I like and then making something out of that. And I've definitely taken that approach to this scientific investigation.

Thank you. We're almost ready to sort of panelists to deliver their verdicts. Before that, we have some listener questions. First off, we have Kyle Hi's Kyle here. I'm loving the show.

Wouldn't really class myself as a Bruce fan, but I've been really enjoying all of the interviews and research that you've done. I have a question, do you think that younger generations do this as much? Because you mentioned that part of the reason why Quiz find heroes and straight celebrities is left over from a time and we didn't

Yeah, so this is something that we were kind of wondering about in the show. It is like because of parts of queer history. So in the UK Section twenty eight, which was a law that prevented the quote promotion of homosexuality but local authority. So it meant that people didn't receive sex education like queer sex education in schools, along with a lot of other things.

You know, it was real.

It was a shameful thing to be to be out as a queer person. And then other big things in queer history, like the AIDS crisis, meant that for reasons of people literally not being around because they died or not being able to come out, there was a real kind of lack of queer elders or community leaders in the public eye. And so we were wondering whether there is a kind of like legacy of queer people having to do this work of like projecting onto straight people or like finding do you know.

What I mean?

I think as part of like queer culture is to look for these people and make them into icons. But I think the difference generationally might be less to do with our history and more specifically might be to do with the way we consume media today in social media, that it's much harder to have that sort of old

You know, something I've been thinking about in this highly academic panel is it's kind of reminding me of the discourse around baby girl, you know, which I feel like is a gen Z term that you know, was birthed out of TikTok and then gen Z's on there, you know,

You know, Yeah, totally I always say.

There's something that we talk about in episode six, which is like, if you like zoom out from picking specific you know, specific straight people to make into queer icons.

Thanks everyone. Next up, we have a question from Kathleen h Halle and Jesse. It's Kathleen here in Yorkshire.

I am living the show so far and I've heard what you have to say. I just don't know if I see Booth as a queer icon. I feel like we see the checkshire. We've all got daddy issues and that's all we need discuss.

Joelle, what do you think?

Yeah, I mean I think possibly for me, I was trying to figure out why am I not persuaded by this because I think there is a there's a difference in my head between the iconic queer icon and a queer a hero you know, So an icon is it's product.

So what's a religious product to our projections? You know, this kind of prophecy you are, you have a distance from them, so you're able to project, you know, with absolute clarity and meaning everything you're looking for. Whereas a queer as somebody's actually doing something positive for us, there's actually a politically engaged has taken on great struggles at some time. So I don't know, daddy issues we certainly will do.

Yeah, I think it's a good point. I think we all do have daddy issues, and I think that should be acknowledged as part of this investigation.

But I think, like I would say that that's like what what Cathleen said is potentially an argument for Bruce being a queer icon in that I'm like, yeah, like we have reasons why we need to make new daddies, and like maybe that's okay, Like maybe maybe he's someone who we can fill in those gaps for.

Which is really really interesting this fiction between a gay icon and a queer ypo. I thought like queer would be more, it would queer things more, you know, So it challenges these kind of heats of normative ideologies and ideas and so me even the names or boss and exemplifies all of those things. So what what do you think the difference is between the two?

What is the sort of Yeah, something we talked about a bit in the show is like who is choosing the queer icons, because like gay icons are traditionally worshiped by like cisc men potentially.

And tend to be straight women.

We think that there is a longer history of queering straight women than it is of queering straight men, and that might be because of women or trans masculine people or like people within that part of queer culture. They might relate, for example, to Bruce's masculinity in a different way that maybe a gay man might really relate to Bruce's masculinity. So we're wondering whether this is like a new thing that we are pioneering.

The dyke for a nice Yeah.

Yeah.

The fans that we spoke to and the experts that we spoke to in the show kind of pointed towards there being mostly dykes trans masque fans that were finding something in Bruce. It wasn't the same thing, but it was finding something in Bruce, and we thought that is worth investigating.

Yeah, it really is.

So it might feel affronting to be like, WHOA A cis straight white man. He doesn't deserve another pedestal. But maybe this is like a new thing that we've discovered and it's not about like glorifying him. It's about like celebrating Dyke and like adjacent culture question mark.

Lastly, we have a question from Alison.

Hello, this is Alison here.

So I'm wondering if trying to ask Bruce himself was ever part of your plan or do you feel like he doesn't get to weigh in on this even if you could.

Talk to him.

And I'm also wondering, if you did have the chance to talk to Bruce, you're.

Hanging out in the same room, what would you ask him.

I've said this quite a few times during the podcast that I'm actually just really not interested in the real Bruce Springsteen. I love you, Bruce, I really do, but I do think that I don't need to know his opinions or anything. I don't need to actually meet him or speak to him, because the version I've got of Bruce in my head is so much more interesting and so much more important to me than the real Bruce Springsteen ever.

Could Yeah, I think I feel quite similarly. I think we went into this project and we were just like Brice doesn't care about us, Like we're just two queer people making a little podcast. There are so many pot us about him because he's such a famous musician. If he did hear the show, I guess I would feel disappointed if he used it to gain the Pink Pound, Like, I don't want him to be like, oh sick, I've got queer fans now, I'm gonna like release a line.

Of T shirts that say love is Love, Love is Love yet exactly.

So, I think there's something nice about the fact that he's like a slightly unobtainable figure in our lives in it. Yeah, it's less about pleasing him or getting him on side and more about us being like, yeah.

Yeah, it's not about him, us the most important people.

It's really about us, guys. That's what we're trying to communicate to you.

Jesse and Holly. This is your last chance to share closing faults, feelings, or final bits of evidence with the pattern.

So I have one last bit of evidence from our dossier to play now for the panel.

Our executive producer Jasmine J. T. Green interviewing Alex or talk Bazar, who wrote the music for the series. So it's a conversation between the two of them, and the first voice you hear is Alex's voice.

Right.

I've been thinking a lot about this whole quest for Bruce as queer icon. Bruce isn't my queer icon. That doesn't mean that Bruce can't be a queer icon. There's a lot of like white women in the halls of queer iconography, and who's picking those icons?

Right?

It's been a lot of like the male.

Gaze, See what you did there?

So have Bruce right? Like, Bruce isn't for me, But because Bruce brusted for this concept that I was running from already that other people were running two. I was living in this idea of macho that was kind of like held on a pedestal, and Bruce was occupying a space that was manly but not overly mocho, and it's

Absolutely not.

Okay, So now fast forward to you're suddenly helping make a podcast about Bruce, and you're presumably listening to a lot of Bruce.

Now, so it's funny, like now my streaming algorithm is starting to recommend Bruce songs and I'm like, this a little man, This a little man got some.

I get it.

I absolutely get it. I absolutely get it. I'm like, I'm like crying thinking about it, like it's they're bops. They're absolutely bops, I must say, and like they contain like a different context to me.

Now, so you just said, I guess that you you kind of implicitly recognized Bruce as queer icon. Do you do you think that Bruce is a queer icon?

I am thoroughly convinced that he is, in fact a queer icon. I think I feel in the same way for you as in, like, he's not my queer icon, but there are things that I can recognize.

Does the panel accept these additional pieces of evidence?

Yeah, I mean I do.

I'm happy to accept this evidence. You know, it's the last minute the court will enter the evidence.

Perfect. The serious and legitimate peer review panel have heard all of Jesse and Holly's evidence, and it is now their time to share if they agree that Bruce Springsteen is a queer icon. That's after the break, we are back. I'm James Cunningham, and this is because the boss belongs to us. Seeing if this isn't actually a scientific study, I don't have to be a neutral adjudicator, so I'm going to have my say too. I think that queerness is a personal expression of oneself and as a bucket,

I think it's interesting that you describe queenness is like there is like a very kind of individual version to everyone's definition of queerness. And there's a very individual listic thing around like queer icons and putting people on these pedestals.

And so it's time for our queer icon experts final decision on whether Bruce Springsteen is a queer icon. So the panel you may answer yes or no. You may also answer yes, but with some suggest revisions to the study Zekia Gibbons.

So you know, like I said, I still have yet to really listen to a Bruce song, so I feel like I cannot claim him as my queer icon. But you know, after you know, having listened to the show, after listening to y'all's arguments, hearing you know, other people's experiences and views on Bruce, I can't deny other people's feelings. If he is a queer icon to them, then he is. But I also just listen to it, I'm like, oh, these arguments are landing for me like I see it.

You let me.

It's funny because I came into this thinking, no, he's not a queer icon, and I say that as a queer fan. But then as I've listened to the evidence, there's clearly everything's there. He is camp, but then people who love his camp love it with an intensity and a sincerity that goes far beyond, which I think is like the main point that makes a queer icon. And he does ruefully underdog even if he himself is a millionaire, and he can dance to his music and talk to

What I'm hearing from you, h is that we've successfully managed to get us a gear into the cult.

I would say I in terms of cult, I have like one arm in the sleeve of the cult cloak. I pad with some music. I will probably slip my other arm in and I'll be fully darning the Bruce Bringsen cult cloak.

Next time we see you, you're going to be in that denim cloak.

Yes, then club, Now that I know it's Denham, maybe I'll yeah, I'll wear it even sooner it would be Denham.

Everyone wants to start somewhere.

You can't start a fire.

Oh amen to that.

And finally, Joel Taylor, it really.

Really really just agreeing with everything you were you were suggesting. But h, Yes, the revision. I accept that.

Is your queer. Yes, he's your queer, not mine.

Thank you so so much, Bun.

That was so amazing and not as scary as I thought it was going to be.

That was so good.

Oh man, I think I'm still shaking. I was really scared. I was really nervous. That felt that felt terrifying.

Yeah, we I truly.

I kept being like we did this to ourselves, like we we chose to be tested in this world.

But now I'm thinking maybe I should do a pH d.

Maybe that's next. It will make a bean, I really thought.

I mean Joelle, who knew at the last moment. Actually, to be fair, I think all of them. Up until about halfway through, I thought.

There's no chance.

Yeah, there are so many people that run from that element of masculinity, like everything that Bruce represents. Why would we want to them celebrate that?

But I thought it was so beautiful what Alex said about like that is a thing in that final bit of evidence of being like this, like new and playful relationships. Mascultee is something that some queer people run towards and some people are running from, and that just shows like simply whoops, you can't imaginize queer people.

But Joelle, like very very early on, just like Hammered does with you know, should we be doing this, like why not members of our own queer community? What's difference between queer icons and gacons? And we went through that on the depression bench in episode four. We really interrogated our feelings on that. But of course that was something that Joel's going to question as all totally because it needs to be asked. I think if anybody else did

You just have to.

Feel really anxious and depressed about it.

Okay, thank you everyone so much for listening to because the bus belongs to us.

You heard it here first.

Bruce Brinstein is a queer icon because he's our queer icon. Yeah, so anyway, to be honest, we just did this because we love Bruce and we love to love things too much.

This has allowed us to connect to so many queer Bruce fans. There's so many of us out there slowly infiltrating the queer community with our Bruce loving ways.

And regardless of what evidence we have, Bruce just is our queer icon, at least for now, because he's important to us and.

Now it's time to say goodbye. Holly.

Climbing is a town full pleasers, and we're pulling out of here.

To win.

Because the boss belongs to us. Is a production of Malton Hart and iHeart Podcasts. We're hosted by Jesse Lawson and Holly Cassio.

The series is executive produced by Jesse and Holly and created by Jesse Lawson.

This episode was produced and sound designed by Jesse Lawson, with production assistants by Tess Hazel. Michelle maclum is our mix engineer.

Our original music and theme is by Talk Bazaar at Talk v A z A R Underscore. Our show art was designed and illustrated by Holly Cassio at Holly c A s i O.

Executive producer from Malton Hart is Jasmine J. T.

Green.

Our executive producer from iHeart Podcast is Lindy Hoffman.

A reminder that our friends have released six absolutely stunning Bruce covers to celebrate the series, Fight Milk, The Sheridans, coy O, Day, mus Ghost, Daskinsey four and Command Jasmine. There's a link in our show notes for the Queer Springsteen playlist listen there.

Thank you so much for the special people who've supported us while making the series. Lauren Passel, Arlie Ablinton, James Cunningham, Fen Williams, Kyle Gibbons, Beth Elden, Kerr, Oriel Wiles, Alana Cumbier for inspiring our name and bringing us.

Together, Phil Roberts for buying me my first gay brucene.

And all of our friends and family who have put up with us obsessively talking about Bruce forever and listen to so much springs in against their will. It's not going to stop, guys, just because the podcast's.

Over and when more.

Little shout out to the val Halla Suite, which is a free plugin for audio nerdes and has been used so much throughout the series. On my website, I have a list of resources for people interested in getting into audio.

I'll link it in the show notes.

For more Queer Bruce content from us, check out my scenes at Colschmall dot com and follow Drag King Butch Sprinksteen at Butch Sprinksteen Underscore Drag.

I'm at Jesse lu Dawson and Holly is at Holly Cassio on socials stay in touch.

You've not heard the last from us. Bye bye bye