Ross and Rachel: Will They, Won't They, Should They?

It's a, it's a forest for the trees situation. Like if you're watching a single episode, Right. You're looking at that tree. Mm-hmm. it can be a pretty gay tree. You watch the whole entire series of friends and it's like, Oh, they like really do hate gay people. Hello and welcome to, because it was on, we're like that fancy film podcast, but for people who like to talk about that episode of How I Met Your Mother, where Lily's father is keeping bees in the basement.

I'm Jessica and my blind date turned out to be my ex step and we're inexplicably still seeing each other. And I'm Zach and it's Take Your Daughter to Workday and my boss has asked me to keep an eye on our 37 year old daughter and make sure her hand doesn't get stuck in the copier like last year. Oh shit. Where is she? You get back here, Zach. There is really only one thing I wanna talk to you about today and maybe for the rest of our lives.

You know, our mutual best friends whose house we just walk into uninvited. Well, turns out I saw them on a secret date last night while I was also out on a secret date last night with my ex step as noted earlier. Zach, can you believe Trunk and Stacy are finally together? Could you be anymore behind the news? They broke up this morning after trunk, got way too jealous of Stacy standing too close to a Ronald McDonald's statue.

first of all, I'm gonna breeze right past you dating your former stepdad, and the rest of my waking hours will now be spent obsessing about the trunk and Stacy situation. If these two generic 20 somethings can't make it work, how am I ever going to project myself onto them without the ability to directly influence them immediately having sex again? It honestly feels like we just have nothing to do. Like maybe we shouldn't even exist outside of their presence at all.

I just feel like if there is a God, he's watching the trunk in Stacy situation and hoping they work their shit out right now. Could we be any more of a blo? What should we do while we're just hanging out at their place without them here? I don't know. Let's see. We could get an exotic animal and let a, loosen their building. Okay. We could do a montage of ourselves at Disneyland. I like it. I like it.

We could sit here and cinematically Remember all the times Trump and Stacy exchanged meaningful glances. Oh, you know what? I've got a cousin from Austria that my parents keep wanting me to show around the city. No. We, we showed my pen pal from Korea around the city of last season. That's kind of Sammy. You're right, you're right. Oh, I know we could have our own less interesting but faster paced romance. I mean, maybe. Mm. Actually no. And absolutely not. It is not gonna work.

Yeah, that definitely won't be a thing. You know what? I like the exotic pet thing and I just got a text from my boss. she wants me to babysit her slowloris with epilepsy. So God has spoken. Perfect. You go and pick him up and I'm gonna tell everybody at home, guys, if you haven't guessed it by now, today we are talking about good old fashioned will. They, won't they?

And specifically we are going to focus on our friends and yours, Ross and Rachel, from obviously the classic late nineties, early two thousands television show. Friends. We decided that we should probably talk about a sitcom that people are still invested in Yeah. I think there's not enough Murphy Brown stands out there to really round out our season with it. The flying none might not jet us into like McElroy fame. We might hope. Yeah. So what has like your relationship been with.

With friends before research for this episode. Yeah. You know, it's a phenomenon. Friends is a phenomenon. It's a phenomenon. People love it. They loved it then they love it now. Feels like it's not ever really gone away. But you know what, I'm gonna say something controversial yet brave. I never really connected with friends. It wasn't something I really watched a lot of growing up.

It wasn't something that was on my regular sitcom rotation when I was sort of in my formative sitcom watching and loving years. And it's not really something I've picked up as an adult either. So a lot of what I knew about friends before getting into this episode is, first of all, we have obviously a ton of mutual friends who love the show. And so I know about their love of it.

And I also have picked up a ton through cultural osmosis and just it being on TV while I'm doing other shit and sort of just forgot to change the channel. So I have some awareness of it, but it just like not a show I ever personally connected to. What about you? same. I think like part of, and we haven't talked about this yet, I think one piece of like my love for sitcoms is that it was like almost a secret world that I was into because almost nobody else was into sit.

Yes. And so like I, I, I don't know, it was like my thing and I never got the memo that when you have that urge as a young person, what you're supposed to do is begin like old records in indie band kind of get you late in high school. so nope. Turns out it's D and Greg is the way that with it. So I took a slightly different route and it did not work out as well. all it got you was like one really good friend in college.

Yeah. I'm said that I never got that moment where there's like a guy in my room and so of there being like this record collection he saw like just all of my DVDs, and, and I just started like mansplaining to him. Like, yeah. It's pretty cool. Maybe I can make you a mix tape of my favorite my favorite Jerry Stiller moments from King Queens. I'll make you a YouTube compilation. Oh, you don't know the full theme song to Cheers. Oh, I have so much to show you.

Yeah, so so the fact that friends was so popular, I think just maybe that was part of it, that I didn't have like the urge to watch a hundred percent. There's a little bit of that for me too easily social, just not funny but I hot, take hot take. I think we'll probably get into this a little bit more. But Friends does sort of deviate from the sitcom genre in a major way in that it's, it has a lot of like soap opera elements in a self-aware way. Like they make jokes about it.

I think Joey, Joey is on a soap opera. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, I think that's like a me joke, like that the Ross and Rachel thing is so soap opera, Operay. But, and so it's a different kind of animal than like a classic sitcom, which is what I was into when friends was around. Mm. But interesting. I think that's why I never collected to it. It's fine. It's a fine show. I watch tons of it for this research.

Yeah. You you were traveling and so yeah, we had like lots of time to prep for this episode and my sister is really into friends and so yeah, we had a little shaman. Yeah, we had like a bonding moment through this period. She's really into friends and I really got like a window into like The, the mind of like a true friends fan Aniak. Yeah. Yeah. She like, she knows about the lobsters. She knows she has strong opinions about Janice. I do too now. She's showed me the ways Oh, Oh, okay.

I I thought we were gonna vindicate Janice here, but okay. Oh yeah. I, I fucking love Janice. Justice for Janice. Like justice for Janice. Hundred percent. You heard it here, folks. I, they, they're my bonus Patreon content. Justice for Janice. We might need to do a justice for Janice episode. We can do a justice for Janice, Justice for CE from the nanny. Like, there's a lot of, a lot of ladies out there deserve some justice. in sitcom world. But yeah, I think, Yeah, I, I'm with you.

There was just something about friends. Yes. It was hyper popular. And again there's, there is something to the, like, I'm not liking it cuz everybody else likes friends. I like Seinfeld, I'm elevated. So there was definitely that. I also think the most popular Feld episode. Literally, literally the most popular sitcom. Yes. But not, I mean, not amongst high schoolers in 2008. This is true.

Yeah. But, but I think there was also something to the friend, the, the fact that friends was like, it was about this group of like hot. 20 something year olds who pretty much their primary thing, is like who they're dating and just basically sort of running around that circle of their sex lives and their twenties. I never could relate to such a fucking nerd. I could never relate to it. It was never really a fantasy of mine to just be a 20 something.

Really like big into the dating scene in New York. it just never clicked for me. I could imagine myself hanging out at Cheers. Right? That always stuck with me. Which it's an ensemble piece that I think friends get some of its DNA from. Mm-hmm. But I, I could never just imagine myself bopping around New York City getting late a lot. And I think that speaks a lot to I am. And so just like, it never, it never connected for me in that way.

I never was able to watch it and find the character who was my avatar mm-hmm. Or find literally any of them attractive at all. So it just, it just never hit, never clicked for me. Yeah. It's also a very, it's an aggressively straight show. Even, even though they do have a prominent lesbian couple, but they hate. Yeah, their, their presence there. First of all, it's a punchline. So no points, zero points for representation. It's literally the, just there to like Emasculate Ross.

But it's an aggressively straight show. And then I don't know the tradition of camp and latching onto random details to like mm-hmm. intentionally make a show. Queer Friends gives you nothing like it is straight through it. One thing I will say is especially in the early season, it is hard not to watch friends and like imagine the will they, won't they being Chandler, Chandler and Joey? Yeah. Yeah. That is but that's like me actively projecting onto it to try to make it more interesting.

I don't know, Dunno, like I felt, I felt like there was genuine sexual tension. I, so I do think that the chancellor Joey dynamic is very interesting because I think it has Chan chancellor specifically has very toxic masculinity and being so insecure. Yes. Is often him, Ross too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, fuck. Yeah. We'll be talking about that But for Chandler, he often is the one that's bringing up like the the gay panic sort of energy mm-hmm. to the Joey Chandler plots.

And I, I think that those two really do have like a genuine arc of becoming secure in their friendship. And I think it's great. I think it's beautiful. I love it. I don't love it. It's a It is, it's a mediocre show, but I'm happy that that exists. Yes. But yeah, I get what you're saying. It just, I think that there's too many jokes about it for Oh yeah. Me to be able to like, like that energy. I dunno. Totally. Totally. It, it, like, it's a, it's a forest for the trees situation.

Like if you're watching a single episode, Right. You're looking at that tree. Mm-hmm. it can be a pretty gay tree. You watch the whole entire series of friends and it's like, Oh, they like really do hate gay people. Yeah. There's no, them pulling the punch up. Like the joke is always, It would be terrible to be gay, and none of them have any growth away from that. They double down on it in the last season.

Yeah. Like they, they're hiring their male nanny and like the entire thing is Ross is, even though the male nanny's, like, I'm not actually gay, Ross is. I'm pretty sure you're gay. Refuses to hire him. Of Yeah, so it, it, yeah. Agree completely. But a lot of people do like, and I totally get it. That's like despite fact that I do not personally connect to it, I'm a weird person and I'm at peace with that. And I understand why lots of people do. It is like the Gen X show. It is.

Totally, totally. And I think if this is a safe space for anyone liking a show from 30 years ago, that is hell a problematic and speaks to a very small portion of the population. It, it's it's here. Yeah. It is the, because it was on family, so if you love friends, baby love friends, we don't know it that well. And I'm certain you guys are gonna probably rip us to shreds as, as we sort of get into. No, Jessica, I, a bit of an outsider's take I fucking know friends. Well now you do.

And I know, I know it decently now I know it decently now. Especially season eight, which I just left on while I was cleaning once. So if you, if you want a deep season eight conversation, I am good to go. But. I, I, I feel com I feel comfortable in my friend's knowledge now which is not something I could have said a month ago. Yeah. There, there are hundreds of episodes of friends and I, I have watched probably in the past three weeks, 30 episodes maybe more. So that's solid. That's solid.

I've probably watched 20 and then like cultural osmosis, I feel like I get, I get the vibe of the rest., but this episode specifically friends, is obviously huge. It's a cultural phenomenon. There's a ton we could talk about. We already have a plan Justice for Jan's episode as you guys heard. But this episode specifically we are gonna focus on the primary feature that if you know nothing about friends, what you do know is Ross and Rachel, And you know about that.

Very, very, very famous, perhaps one of the most famous will. They won't these in television history. And so we're gonna dig into it a little bit today and talk about Will they won't these as a construct. This is a topic we are definitely going to revisit cuz it's pretty much one of the most foundational elements of the, the sitcom genre. Very, very common. So Jim and Pam we're scheduling that That'll be list Jim and Pam at some point. If I have my way, we'll eventually get cheers in this mix.

We'll talk about Sam and Diane, the, the best will they, won't they of all time. Cards on the table already. I think I agree with that, with the little I know Yeah, I think it's actually pretty good. It's, it's great. It, it's actually credited very much with popularizing the trope in the sitcom genre. I'm sure we could trace it back further than, than Cheers. But Cheers Is, is considered sort of the, the father of the, the modern, the modern will they, won't they?

And I think we could probably, everything that Ross and Rachel do, I could probably trace back to, to something that happened with Sam and Diane first, but anyway we'll get there. We'll get there. We're first gonna start with our friends. Our friends at friends and talk about that. Beautiful, beautiful. Will they, won't they? And before we dive into Ross and Rachel specifically, I think we should talk about the will.

They won't they, as a construct, like I said, and like Zach has said, it is very foundational to the sitcom genre and it is used a lot. And Zach, I know you had a, a few thoughts on how and why sitcoms deploy the will they, won't they as a tool in their narrative? Yeah. So when you first think about it, like we're probably gonna put this episode after our what is a sitcom episode? And we talk a lot in that episode about how. part of the DNA of sitcoms is that they are episodic.

They are, they're very, each episode is very insulated to like other events. So that they could be syndicated and be shown out of order when they sell it to local TV stations or that kind of thing. You can just watch any rerun and like, enjoy it as its own little product. So will they, won't they, plots that are supposed to span the entire series or many seasons of the series, you would think are kind of like not natural to the genre.

And you would be right but why I think they, they ended up happening is it, it's a very good way of getting people invested in a sitcom and addressing like a problem with like sitcoms. If they're all episodic, how can you ever have, can't miss television if it's a sitcom because they're all episodic. So you, you, by definition you can miss it but if you're like, networks are being competitive, this isn't exactly great.

And so the will they won't, they, it's sort of like a solution to that problem of how to get people invested in, Oh, I gotta watch this episode. Because you know, Jim and Pam, Jim and Jim and Pam are gonna kiss this episode. The, the teaser showed me that. And so. It just gets people as a way of like, sweep, sweep you gotta catch this week. There's something that's gonna be happening with Ross and Rachel. And so it's just a way of selling selling sitcoms is, it's sort of like tact on there.

I don't think it's a natural fit for sitcoms, which I think we're gonna talk about more where it is sort of a contradiction to have a long romance and a genre that's sort of like antithetical to character growth. Right. And I think you, you see them sort of having their cake and eating it too. Right. With, with these, with the exploration of this trope, just like you said, we have to sort of fit the idea of a long running romance.

And then also, like, as we've discussed sitcoms are sort of by their nature designed for things to remain the same and for people to not change. Whereas we know true adult relationships require tons of change in compromise and development. But regardless of all of that you have to, like I said, have your cake and eat too, because like you said, this is the arc that keeps people tuning back in. Right.

We're all watching the nanny because like, we really, really want Fran drescher to, to bag Mr. Sheffield. Right. And you have to also make that romance.

So broad strokes and so relatable and so able to plug into sort of our, our cultural knowledge of this trope that even if you are seeing a singular episode and know nothing, you are able as a sort of informed consumer to pick up on what is happening and what sort of the, the larger arc of the television show is trying to, to push us to, Which you could do if you picked up any episode of friends, right? Absolutely.

They had like any of like Ross, Rachel's like inconvenient boyfriends boyfriend or girlfriends. It could be like the, the chronology just doesn't fucking matter. You understand just watching any particular episode of friends. Okay. That's the inconvenient girlfriend that Ross happens to be dating. And so Rachel can pine for him this episode. Exactly. Exactly. We know that because those inconvenient boyfriends or girlfriends are one of two things. Either they have no personality backstory.

Anything whatsoever or they're like one singular trait. They are an annoying laugh. Oh, exactly right. Like they, they're, they're, they have nothing. And if they have anything, it's to make you dislike them as a character. Yeah. Or, yeah. So they're either like completely blank, just literally a pulse Like I felt, I hated Ross's first inconvenient girlfriend Julie, who? Yeah. Who you met on a trip to China. Yeah. Yeah. Is just she doesn't, she gets barely. Annie lied.

The only line that I can remember her saying is her correcting Rachel's assumption that she was Chinese and didn't speak English. She, So that's the one thing she got to say. Good for you, Julie. Yeah. I mean, not good for you. That's it. That, that's it. But, and then you get to move in have your boyfriend move in and then he, he dumps you like two days later. Yes, exactly. Justice for Julie. Justice for justice for anyone that raw stated I want.

So another pitch for a sitcom would be like a support group for like tertiary sitcom characters, like the people in Zach Morris's universe, So before we dive into like the nitty gritty of like Cross and Rachel specifically, what are like the beats that we're going to continue to talk about through like this series Yes. Of what they won't face?

So I, I, I put on my research hat and I really got to thinking about all of the big will they, won't they that I have spent many, many hours consuming plus obviously deep diving, the Ross and Rachel will they, won't they? And I've put together a list of what I think makes a sitcom. Will they, won't they? So I'm gonna run through this and you, you jump in and you let me know if you have any thoughts on these.

So the first thing I have here is they have to be good looking and young, but one thing to note there is they can't be too young to be a really good and popular sitcom. Will they, will they, They have to be right in that pocket. Where young people, teenagers, early twentie, somethings watching it can sort of project on to those characters, but also old enough that our older audience can also sort of see themselves as these characters are 30 somethings, 40 somethings watching it as well.

So our characters really have to be right in that pocket of like late twenties to to early thirties to, to be a good will. They, won't they? Yeah. I, I think this is a truth about romances in general that are meant to be consumed by a mass audience. one of the tricks that you can use as a romance writer is to make the character sort of very generic. Mm-hmm. Um, So, but the first time I had this thought was with Bella in Twilight. Mm. Where she is, she's just sort of a blank person, Right.

For people to project themselves onto so that they can live the fantasy, updating the vampire. So in the same way, Rachel, it's, I have things that I will say when, once we get into it about like who Rachel is as a person, but she's not as defined as like, let's say a Monica Right. Or a few a Jo. Yeah. Right. You know who they are. Whereas Rachel is our every woman. Right. And Ross in the same way is he's sort of. A man's fantasy, like he's literally a dinosaur doctor.

He's just a boyish fantasy that you can, that he, he's this like nerd who gets the girl, and so that sort of like, he's a boy man. Yeah. I completely agree. You have to be flexible so that anyone watching this can really project onto you. And by anyone, I mean most people obviously, it might not be quite as easy if you're coming from like a very different racial or cultural background to to see yourself as, as Ross. Yeah, totally.

I mean, with television throughout its history, this quote, mass audience is often after a specific kind of market and there's tons of erasure going on. Of course. Totally, totally agree. So in addition to being good looking and young, you, the two folks in the will, they won't, they, they have to have as actors obvious chemistry and obvious sexual tension. You as the audience not only want to watch them bang, they also want to bang. That just has to be the way it is. I. I'm gonna push back on.

I'm gonna say right now that I do not believe that Ross and Rachel fit this at all. We can talk about it more. They have no chemistry. It is literally just so I will say obvious chemistry and sexual tension is great if you can manage it. But an old writer's bush trick, if you can't manage that and you have maybe some mediocre writers and maybe these characters actually shouldn't be together.

If you can just establish in the universe that they have an innate born characteristic of they have true love for one another that defies any kind of psychology or character growth. They just must be with this person. I dunno. I think, I think Ross and Rachel had some sexual tension. I don't, I'm not saying it was copious. They're no. Sam and Diane, let's be real about it. Yeah. But they're not even a Nick and Nick and Jess.

Or I mean, I guess I like, Hey, you know, The way that I, the way that I see Ross and Rachel on this, I've, like, I've marathoned this show the past three weeks and it feels so much like two people that were called a jury duty by the universe and got to will they, won't they? Because like God just implanted in their soul that they must be with each other despite the fact that they have nothing to offer each other.

So like I'm starting to second guess this because you have like how I met your mother, one of the biggest will, they won't these in there is, is Robin and Barney. And Barney we know is played by Neil Patrick Harris, who is in real life as no interest in, in dating women. So those actors obviously cannot necessarily have sexual attention, but they, I guess they could have chemistry. The two actors can still have chemistry. Yeah. So, I dunno, this one's up in the air.

I think it's necessary, but for Ross and Rachel, so I kind of like, I don't, I don't necessarily want, want to watch them have sex. The rest of their friends do kind of a weird thing, but they do. I don't, I think they had some chemistry, they had some sexual tension. I just don't think it was off the charts to the level that we expect from a goodwill. They won't, they, I have never once seen either Ross or Rachel give the other.

Give their partner even an ounce of joy or happiness, other than them saying that they reciprocate the feelings of the other. So unless it has to do with the actual, literal logistics of will they, won't they? And then just being together as a couple, they offer nothing for each other. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The relationship is a desert. Well, hold on though. Hold on though. Hold on though. Hold on though.

You can have a relationship that is a desert emotionally and still have physical attraction and still have chemistry. Do you ever physically witness this? I just, I can't think of anything. Well, I mean to your like point, like the only times they are like genuinely happy with each other is when they're like shown to be like, about to have sex, having sex or like just had sex. Yeah. So here's what I would say.

So when I think of obvious chemistry and sexual a tension, I think of Jim and Pam, who it's perfect. Like they had this to the maximum, just like their glances at each other. Just like whole paragraphs are like written and just like these little moments of them. Like, I think it, it just was so. Perfect. The way that like, I, I don't know like their coworkers would be acting like goofballs and it's just this huge scene Yeah.

Of like every, they live in this chaotic universe and they would just like glance at each other and have this moment and it'd be like, there was something there. I don't know, to me that doesn't, that, that isn't chemistry and sexual tension. So I, like, I, I think like we have different definitions. I guess. We do. We do. Because what you're saying is like there's the, the Ross and Rachel relationship is more just like the, the audience.

God decided that Ross and Rachel should be together, even though like there is nothing that they offer each other. Right. So there is no, like, there's nothing to the relationship. Whereas like Jim and Pam, we see them evolve naturally and like it's clear that they're providing something to each other in the show, in those moments. Right. We're building something more. Definitely. I don't think that is chemistry or sexual tension.

Okay. Then I guess we maybe agree, but we just don't agree on words. All right. Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay. How I would characterize this rule, just so I can get is that Obvious chemistry or sexual tension that like pulls the audience in. But the lesser version of the sta is an acceptable substitute sometimes is. You can just point blank say they are meant for each other. They are quote meant for each other. Yeah, Yeah. You can tell us that. That's like the off brand version of it.

I don't know. I do think that like I think there are failed Will they, won't they? Because the two actors can't get it together. So like you think about the first season of parks and recreation they were trying to set up, but will they, won't they between Amy Poller and whatever that guy was name was the guy for the public's workers department. Exactly. And there's nothing, there's nothing there between the two of them. The actors are not connecting with each other and there's no tension at all.

You see that flip when they bring in Adam Scott and she actually like, these are two actors you can tell who are like enjoying the scene together. Yeah, I think I'm just getting too hung up on my own subjective experience. Obviously Ross and Rachel are phenomenon and that should be evidence enough.

Yeah. I'll back off The next thing that, that I think a goodwill they won't, they has to have is the sense that the timing is always just off, they would be together if it weren't for the wrong time, He's with somebody, she's with somebody he's going to take her to the prom, but her date arrived just in the nick of time, this timing is always just. Timing misunderstandings as well. Yes. absolutely.

It's just, and it's funny in sitcoms in an unintentional way, cuz in a romantic movie maybe it can be very meaningful when it's just two ships passing and oh, they just miss each other. But when it's a sitcom and it's happening 20 times, It's just two ships like chasing each other in a roundabout at that point. one of my big criticisms of the friends will, they won't, they is how much they won't, they is way too much, won't they? Yeah, very. Sometimes the won't they is very artificial Yeah.

we're going through lengths to, won't they? Yeah, it's way too much. Won't they? We see in this show, Ross and Rachel, we know that they've had sex three times. That's it. And it definitely slots right into our cosmology of sitcoms or hell Cause you, you can't have the things, You can't have the thing otherwise. What is the show? How do we get to season 10 if Ross and Rachel stay together in season four? Yeah, The treadmill has to go on forever, Which, which is why like will they, won't they?

It it's not, it's not a perfect marriage state. Thompson will, they, won't they? Mm-hmm. But yeah, timing and misunderstandings are definitely part of the bread and butter. Yes. Yes. And similar to that is the feelings of our, our, our two will, they won't, theirs need to kind of flip flop on a pretty regular basis. he loves her. She doesn't love him. Flips around. He doesn't love her. She loves him. Flip flo, flip Flo, flip, Flo all over everywhere all of the time.

Just suck and pick one Just a never ending roller coaster of ups and downs in terms of how you're feeling about that person at any particular moment. And it can never be the same feeling at the same time. Mm-hmm. We also have to have our two people in the will. They won't they destroy their partners or their, their passats relationships, but never actually commit to getting into a relationship with their will. They, won't they? This is very all, all over friends.

We see, especially Ross just destroying any potential for any kind of male relationship, romantic or platonic that Rachel has.. Yeah, the sometimes it's so cruel and just awful. Because the inconvenient boyfriend girlfriends aren't human right? Like they're, they're just they're in PCs so you can do anything to them. Literally talks a woman into going bald to sabotage a relationship. exactly. you have to have your little flip fluffy feelings. You have to destroy their romantic prospects.

Audience avatar characters need to be super invested in the relationship, so everybody around the will, they won't, they needs to care a lot, whether they will or won't, This is it's a combination of like, the show will sometimes be trying to be trying to like sell to the audience. The, the idea of being obsessed with this but sometimes it's just sort of, Them making a meta joke about the phenomenon outside of the show.

yes, Ross and Rachel were like, You go to the grocery store during that time period and there's a good chance that they're gonna be the front cover. The Ross and Rachel people cared about the Ross and Rachel, it, yeah. It serves two purposes, like you said. So Phoebe being hyper invested mm-hmm. in whether or not Ross and Rachel get together. It not only tells us as the audience that we should care about this, it reflects the fact that we do indeed care about this.

So it's just this little self-fulfilling prophecy here. Also, I think, it reminds us, right? I think a huge reason why the Ross and Rachel will, they won't they works is because we know as trained sitcom viewers what the beats of a will. They won't, they are very generally speaking. And so it is sort of from a, a, a meta perspective, like you said, like we're all in on it together. We know that this is the central thrust of the show, right? Absolutely.

And then our characters also have to be on again, off again. And crucially if they're on again. Never than more for a season at a time. on again, off again. Very short. Lived on again, off again. It's on again, off again. Again cuz you just have to keep like momentum in the relationship. But really there are like, there's only two states of being in a relationship. How many things can happen in a relationship. Yes, exactly.

And if there, if they're off again, one thing is they have to have an immediate rebound. there can be no time to grieve the off again. Like immediately they're just back in the saddle with somebody else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you have to immediately rationalize why, they're not back together. Exactly. Exactly. we see it all over in friends, but in, in cheers, Sam and Diane break up. Diane leaves to go to she, she leaves to go to the funny farm. She comes back dating Frazier immediately.

There has to be an immediate rebound. The prospect for a right away sort of get back together, which is like what often happens in. Relationships, you break up and then like two months later you're back together. That's really how an on again, off again goes. Absolutely not in sitcom world. We have immediate rebounds. There is no space. But once you rebound, you also, the couple are on again, off again. Are, are will they, won't they? They have to remain friends. Mm-hmm.

even after, like in real life, nobody would do this. No one would remain friends with this person who they had this type of relationship with. Doesn't matter. Reasonable human world goes away. Sitcom world, you always remain friends no matter how many times you won't. They yeah, cuz sitcoms are hell. And so you can't, you both can't have your love interest, but you also can't leave and give emotional, healthy, emotional distance from your romantic partner.

you have to stay in the no exit hotel room at all times. Let me this, this is a deep cut. I don't even know if you're gonna remember this, but do you remember like in the first week of us knowing each other we did that, like there was this ra, it wasn't even our floor who organized like the view event? Where they had, they had like volunteers, like do a panel to talk about like topics as though you were on the view and we all volunteered. Do you not know that this at all?

No, I don't remember this at all. And the topic of discussion was, can Amanda woman be friends after a breakup? And, and we, we all that Melissa was there, Crystal, You and me, we were on the view in this like ra. I'm, I'm gonna let you know where that take place. It was, it was literally not our floor. I don't know why we went to the fucking thing, but we, we basically, so we crashed another RA's event and we were like, I wanna be on the view. And we did it. We took it over.

I spent the entire time calling out my roommate Andrew for having sex with a girl in my room like in the room while I was there. And so I was that saw that I remember, Yeah, I, I remember. So like the ra had some people crash our event. I immediately spent it publicly shaming my roommate about fucking a girl and in front of me. And then I was like, All right, I'm out. I got up It was, it was like within the first few days of us knowing each other, yeah.

The topic of discussion was can Amanda or woman be friends with each other after a breakup? And the consensus was, Yeah, sure, but let me talk about Andrew for a sec. Okay, moving on. Oh my god. So We also have to create in a will day, won't they morally gray areas where neither party is correct about something. We're on a break. Exactly. both characters have to be like somewhat empathetic but also not empathetic at all to us as the audience and often heightening the battle of the sexes dynamic.

It's often like inviting, like that kind of divide of men taking the man's side and women taking the women's side. Right, Exactly. They could both be wrong. You have to decide which side you're on. We also have, a little bit goes a long way with will they want these. So like, just even like little like as a meaningful glances can be all that it takes in a single episode to give the audience that little hit that they want and that they need to. Keep moving forward and keep staying invested.

Just a joke about, sex with these characters in the room can often be enough for the audience to just lose their shit. So a little bit goes a long way. And then lastly, I also think that a lot of will they, won't, they also produce secondary little mini will? They, won't they, Or if not a will, they won't they secondary mini romances that tend to move a lot more quickly.

So these other romances they're not the overall thrust of our series, but they happen to give the audience basically to, to fulfill the audience's desire to see like the romantic love interests, do something, right? They create these secondary romances to kinda like, get it outta your system and keep the overarching thrust of the will. They, won't they alive, right? It's like, I don't know, often used as like a jux juxtaposition of, well, Monica and Chandler can make it work.

They're like the model of stability, But yeah, no, like, you have these things to, to keep the audience satisfied. The audience, the, the sitcom gods are horny and you have to make sure they're satisfied. Yeah. I think when you have a will, they won't they, There's like this gravitational pull to treat every character. Like the writers are Tumblr, teenagers just like shipping Yeah. Everybody has to be shipped. And so there's often like a pairing that goes on the office.

I think did a lot of like just the pairings that were extraneous. You do, Yeah. You do have this with the office. If we ever do an office, will they, Won't they? I do wanna make the argument that the true will, they won't. They is Dwight and Angela and Jim and Pam are actually our secondary Our secondary relationship that moves faster to give the audience satisfaction who's spicy. Okay. Let's abandon this episode. We'll do that Well, we're just gonna talk about this.

I really, my main argument for this is just that the Angela Dwight take longer to get together. It's true. And it's definitely more like spicy. There's just like more going on. More energy. Yeah. It's fun. Yeah. And the Pam, Pam and Jim get together And what's season four like? That's very early in the show for a will. They won't they's true. Most of, of the show of the office, they're together. Yeah. It sort of, they transform into, They're not, will they, will they anymore?

They're just like, it's like ideal relationship goals type thing. Yeah. Is what they're selling. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So my point being, they are Jim and Pam are Chandler and Monica. Dwight and Angela are Ross and Rachel. Okay. That was a short episode. So what about all? Well thanks everybody. Rachel, Yes. Now let's talk about Ross and Rachel. Let's dig into it a little bit further. You guys know what I think makes up a good will. They, won't they?

We've already talked about some examples where it shows up in friends, but let's talk Ross and Rachel. should we just give a, a brief rundown of the, the greatest hits of their will? They, won't they? Yeah. So it would be extremely tedious to go through every single inconvenient, boyfriend and girlfriend and all of that. Broad strokes. Broad strokes, my friend, broad strokes. And you, you correct me or you add what you wanna add.

I mean, you've, you've claimed, you've claimed to be a friend, expert at this point, So I'm gonna let you, I'm gonna let you put that out there in the world for the, the audience to judge. So Ross has been in love with Rachel since high school. he at least was pining for her. I think it's officially like ninth grade is how long he's been in love with Rachel. Cuz Rachel was friends with the galas, the gay's parents were friends with.

We were friends with Rachel's parents and so that's been going on. So cut to the start of the season. Rachel is reintroduced because she's getting out of a marriage. She leaves her husband at the alter. She's literally in her wedding dress when she's first introduced. And there's like this tension Ross Pines for her. Doesn't really do anything about it for a lot of season one, but it, we know that there's like this energy there.

Particularly season one, I, I will know that there was a lot of, there was a lot of energy of I think the season one, Ross and Rachel is sort of the model for what? Like online misogynists Okay. Like when they talk about like the Chad and the Stacy sort of dynamic, are you familiar with this rhetoric Chad and Stacy? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. So it's basically the idea that girls don't like what's best for them, right?

You can be sweet and kind and a really nice guy and be there for her, but she's gonna wanna go after the Chad the strong, sexy guy. and so if you want to get women, then you need to be an asshole. I believe that's literally said suggested to Ross and he considers it this idea and it's like explicitly stated, you, you see that in like misogynistic circles online all the time nowadays. Chad I think is like part of the slang now. just it's part of the vernacular and Like beat for beat.

That is what's happening in season one with Ross and Rachel. Plo who I believe is from Brazil. I don't know specifically, but plo, who is this a very attractive like model but is very promiscuous. Rachel falls for them, for him, and she's actually going to move move in with him or like get really serious with him and Ross pines for her throughout this whole thing and just feels so bad because he's so nice to Rachel and he is there for Rachel and Rachel Crys on his shoulder.

So why can't Rachel be with me? But lo and behold, Rachel comes to her senses and she decides that she wants to be with Ross. Mm-hmm. And we get our first inconvenient girlfriend because Ross goes to China. There's like this very nineties, pre nine 11 airport scene where she just like she doesn't get to say her thing to Ross or confess her feelings. And so Ross comes.

And Ross has a girlfriend now, Julie who he met on this dinosaur doctor trip And I will, I, I'm gonna kind of spare you from there. Because it's just the missing boats like boats passing by each other in the ocean. They're just like chasing each other from there on. Throughout season. There's, it's just inconvenient girlfriend inconvenient boyfriend always. I think Mary Ross is, Yeah. Ross. It's always because he is committed to another woman. Yes. That's always his thing.

I can't think of an single exception to that as to why Ross is the one bringing the no to the table. Ki kind of like when Rachel gets pregnant he thinks that she's trying to get back with him before when like she's trying to tell him that she's pregnant. Mm-hmm. And then he brings, he, he tries like he, he, he's going into it like he's gonna bring the no to the table and be like, Oh, it's just if better if we stay friends. Yeah. I guess. Yeah. That's a good point.

But mostly throughout the body of the, the series. Yeah, it's a hundred percent. Because he's like literally about to marry somebody, right? Yeah. He's committed to somebody else. But Ross is being like steadfast Rachel. She also is sometimes committed to somebody else, but she is more free to have other reasons. He cheated on me. She's tired of the will, they won't they, which Amen. Girl, you should have stuck with that story, Right.

But yeah, so she's allowed to be like tired or just not into it. Or angry at Ross. So she has like a more varied reasons as to why she is won't wanting, she's bringing the, the won't to the table It gets very it gets very messy at the end because Rachel gets pregnant and Ross is still won't but also wants to move in with Rachel. Again, you destroy all other prospects but refuse to commit, right? Yeah. And so that is Ross's game in the last two seasons.

Yeah. So Ross he moves in with his pregnant girlfriend, but they are still not like in a relationship. Absolutely. Like sitcom. Just like, what are you doing This is not good for anybody's mental health. Right. But they do it. And there's also, I should mention, cause I want to talk about it later They have a short will they, won't they, with Joey, where like, the writers present to the audience a possible alternative to Ross and Rachel. Right. Jo, Joey and Rachel.

Just to see very late in the game. Yeah. I think a huge improvement to the series would be to plant the Joey thing earlier. That is my hasty tour of the Ross and Rachel. Yeah, it all sort of, most of it follows that first season. Like China Trip Misconnection. Oh yes. The timing's always off just a little bit and Exactly, exactly. Can I tell you what my favorite Ross and Rachel moment is? Mm-hmm.

I think it's just because of the drama of it all, but is when she goes she follows him to London because he's about to get married. And at the motherfucking altar, this man says, I Ross, take the Rachel through his bride, Emily. Bitch. I fucking listed. I screamed at that. only because imagine, imagine being a guest at that wedding. Imagine the tea. Ooh. I would've probably squealed like I could, I couldn't have helped myself.

I would've squealed in that church Like it would've been an audible gasp. I would've been flipping over the benches and shit. Like there would've been like, fucking You're Springer running lap. You such their name. Ross I was fucking breaking, breaking fucking windows and shit. I would be losing my fucking mind if that, if I was there for that. I fucking live. Oh my God. That was my favorite moment. I'll never not think about that. I got fucking goosebumps talking about this shit.

Cause it was so, it was just such tea, Like the tea was too good in that moment. Just how, And it's, it's extremely, it's almost like a parody of sitcoms. It's, It's so ridiculous. It's so ridiculous. I mean, it's, it's, they're doing, they're doing a very sick, calm me thing and they're doing a very friends thing. They're walking you right up to that line of like a won't they, And a definitive, won't they? But like, how definitive is a marriage for Ross?

That's a whole other thing, but like a pretty definitive won't they? Of like, he's literally marrying somebody else. Which makes you at least think as an audience member, a consumer who's, who's pretty knowledgeable that at least the next couple of seasons, the won't the will, they won't, they is gonna be pretty sidelined as a tool. So they have you thinking that up until the last second and then bitch, it is too good. It is too good from a a, a sitcom manufacturing perspective, it, it is.

They literally take you like three quarters of the way through the sentence. Yes. Yes. The last possible second. They swerve it. It is good in that sense, but it's sort of like the tr is that you say the other woman's name during sex in climax. Right. Because it's like you know, you're in the heat of the moment and like you're into it. So you're, you're not thinking straight. Exactly. But like a wetting. It's so artificial though. to be sober in front of everybody, ums very calmly.

You say Rachel instead mean That's absurd. It's ridiculous. You had a stroke. So here's what I will say. As somebody who's been married your brain does indeed go to shit that day. Yeah. And your brain goes to shit. Ask my husband if he remembers a single thing. So my wedding was a surprise wedding, meaning my guest didn't know that it was happening until they were like, arrived at the, the location. They thought it was an engagement party.

And I was downstairs, it was up to my husband to orchestrate everything by himself on the day of his wedding potato salad. He forgot half of the instructions I gave him. Like potato salad just gone. His whole brain. For those who don't know, I was pointing at my nain saying potato salad. His whole brain went to potato salad. It just went to absolute shit full on mush. So I do believe to some extent, right, like when you are getting married, you're, you're pretty fucked up.

Mentally it is a whirlwind of an experience. So like, I wouldn't say it's like it is as. Cold and calculated of a misstep. Okay. I I, I retracted I mean, it is a pretty big fucking deal. He ruined this woman's life. He humiliated her in front of all of her friends and family. She dodged a bullet. Yeah. Like Emily, you are better off girly. You dodged a motherfuck bullet. But he still did a very shitty thing to her on her wedding day. Yeah. Oh, it's fucking devastating.

After being a brat for hours beforehand that day too. Justice for Emily It's all gonna say Justice for Emily. Justice for Janice. Justice for Emily. We're gonna start like a birds of praise style gang with all of the SCO women of friends just to fucking come for blood for, for a Ross. One of the interesting things that I think you can look at when you are unpacking will, they won't, they is the gender politics of it. Ooh. They often say different things.

Okay. I'm, I'm curious what your thoughts are. I, I think I, I sort of already hinted at it with that. It's just there Rachel is allowed to have more reasons to start the drama. Ro Ross is never able to demonstrate any kind of, he has to always be committed. And is it, what do you think is behind that though? When you are selling romance as a product for a mask consumption you're gonna like pull from different tropes and like treating the woman as the prize to be won is always the, the thing.

So Rachel has to be like the more elusive one I think in a lot of ways. her emotions have to be dealt with Ross is like always committed and While he does sometimes not, not committed to Ross and Rachel anymore cuz you think it's like not a chance. It's always like established that it it's there in him, in his soul as he wants Rachel. Just sometimes he, he has given up on Ross and Rachel. Interesting. I had a slightly different reading. Yeah. Okay, go ahead of that.

I think for, for this interpretation to potentially work, like you have to, we also have to like be on Ross's side, view him as the hero. Yeah. If, if we're thinking that like Rachel's apprised to be one. and we have to overcome the obstacles that she's throwing up. you're Ross then is our protagonist in doing this. And like, I'm not, I'm not sure that show constructs it that way. So I, I see what you're saying.

I don't think that it's super, Ross is the protagonist, but I think even with him not being the protagonist, because it's a much more like ensemble show with a lack of focus on any particular character. It floats around a lot, like, mm-hmm. who the narrative you're supposed to be engaging with. But even though that has been removed, that lens of him being the protagonist, I think the general framework of the woman is the prize is still there.

I I definitely see my reading of the show for sure is that Rachel is definitely Ross's prize for sure. Ross is not Rachel's prize. Cause I think there's a sense of she could have him anytime she wants. Yeah. So it's always, Yeah. And I think that's pretty standard for mm-hmm. Um, Like romance, like mass consumption. Romances is the, the man is always it's own question that he wants a woman. I don't think so. No. No, I don't think so.

Not like, think of moonlighting, like the, the, they are big, very, very seminal. Will they, won't they? This is not the case. Cheers. This is not the case. Not the case. All right. I'll go. Overall, this is not the case. I think it's almost very specifically like unique to friends and that like the will, they won't, they is like the won't they is pretty one sided for the most part. Like even so like we were talking about that wedding episode.

Like even think of that like the won't they happened there because, not because Ross made the choice to like continue in his marriage with Emily. Rachel made the choice not to tell him that she flew all the way there to tell him that she loved him. Yeah. Again, Rachel made that choice. We're always left with this sense that if she wanted, she could have him.

Ross is never unavailable outside of being in a relationship where like, I feel like in other will they, won't they, It's actually not the case. They go through pretty intense feel like phases of the feeling sort of flip flopping a little bit more where. Yeah. I not so into each other. Yeah. I, I, I agree. Ross never engages with Rachel as a person. She's just a thing to be wanted. Totally, totally. Anytime she has a life outside of him mm-hmm.

and their relationship, he actively works to either belittle it or sabotage it. He absolutely does not respect her career at all. No, Not even a little. He sends a string quartet to her workplace. The first week of a new job. It was just like your boyfriend Ross. I hope you become the boss on her first week of a new job, like endless presence. Well, you know why he does that? He does that because she has a male coworker Yeah. Who she's friends with. He's literally claiming her.

Yeah. It's a territorial move. That's the entire thing. Yeah. That's the whole reason he does it. Yeah. So despite the fact that Rachel has this like As much as Rachel. So we talked a lot about how generic Rachel can be. I don't mean this hostilely, I just mean like, as a character mechanically who she is. Right. This is not a shit on Rachel statement. It is. It's, it's by design, right. Characters like this are designed to be the every woman, She's a very relatable, charismatic character.

And I mean, Jennifer Anand, she just like oozes charisma. You can't help but wanna, wanna be her friend, right? Yeah. If Rachel has an arc, if she has like a thing that she's about, they, they lay the framework for it in the first season where Rachel is a privileged woman that came from wealthy parents who always made decisions for her and micromanaged her life. And she was pressured into getting a nose jog fucks sake. her overbearing father, like pressures her to do all these different things.

And so her arc is that she is moving into the city. She has just left her false relationship with the man that she left at the altar. And so she's like, I'm gonna live life on my terms. That's like how we are introduced to this character. And so, like Rachel, to the extent that she has like something going on besides her relationship with Ross mm-hmm. it's gaining this independence, learning to live life for herself learning to stand up for herself.

And going through that, Ross is fucking poisoned to that arc. is a, Hey, there is this episode. The one with a race car bed where, Oh, okay. So Rachel wants Ross to meet her dad. Mm-hmm. and her dad is this extremely pushy, like powerful a type older guy who just bosses racial around and racial is just like, Yes daddy. And she's always wanting his approval. And so we have that dynamic.

And then Ross is struggling to get along with her dad and Ra Rachel's desperate for them to get along because she wants daddy's approval. It would be a great time to like explore and give racial, like her independence movement of being like, This is my boyfriend. Right. Fuck you. That's not what happens though. Ross eventually succeeds in getting along with her dad, with the daddy.

Yeah. The way that she gets along with he gets along with her dad is they begin to bond over how they know what's best for. It's this, it's like this jokey conversation they have, but how, with the convers, the topic that they seem to really jive with is they mock Rachel for falling for some of like the fake science behind chiropractor chiropractor. I don't know. And how, oh, your leg, one leg is shorter than the other. And they make fun of her about that.

And then they move along to Rachel's career and how she doesn't have renter's insurance and like all these different things that they know better than Rachel. And so the fucking dystopian nightmarish happy conclusion that they go to is they are bonding over the fact that Ross is now Rachel's father. Also, they, they also highlight this. Weirdly, because in the B story, Monica is getting over her breakup with her older boyfriend.

You. And at the very end of it, because this is the EDUs complex episode, Monica, at the very end, her dad comes over to comfort Monica about the older man. Mm-hmm. and her father picks up the cigar that her boyfriend used to smoke, start smoking it to comfort her. And it's just like showing that Monica had a daddy thing. Yeah. So it's so fucked up. Yeah. And yeah, that plot line was very fucked up. Yeah. And then later on Ross dates his 20 year old student.

So yeah, they just really like to double down on that And, and so Ross is not good for Rachel if that's her plot. A and I don't really know under how to understand Rachel as a character other than that being, her growth is, she is supposed to be able to stand up for herself. Right. And even at the very end, she's about to go to Paris to like fulfill her career fantasy or fantasy's probably not the right word, to fulfill her like ultimate career goals.

And she's talked out of it, not because Ross has anything to offer her in terms of like why staying would be good for her, but more like why her leaving would be bad for. Ross is often set up in opposition to your career and the, of course, very famous. We were on our break plot to run through the beats of that story very quickly. They are together at this point, their relationship. This is the first time that they are together.

And Rachel has a crisis at work and it's actually a great career opportunity for her that she is the one being counted on to deal with this crisis as she, and so she's, she has to like bail on their anniversary plans. And so she's like doing, she's girl bossing it. She's, she's making all these like phone calls and stuff like dealing with her crisis at work and Ross like a fucking dufus just like shows up with like a picnic basket and like a lit handle.

And they're gonna have a date in the middle of like this war room scenario that Rachel's having So Rachel rightfully is like, Get the fuck out of here. And they have a fight. And then so Ross leaves, they go back, she goes back home and they re-litigate the fight. Ross asks, Is this because a mark, who is the coworker that he's jealous of? Jealous? And so they back and forth that she's infuriated by that point because he keeps bringing. This jealousy, right? Like how jealousy is of Mark.

And so she goes, Get the fuck outta here. And she says, I want to be on a break. So Ross leaves he gets very sad at the bar. He calls Rachel, Rachel is at home and Mark has come over to like, ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Listen to her. Yep. And so he hears her and he gets very jealous and is like, Oh, she's having sex with Mark. And so he hangs up and then he has sex with Chloe, the woman who works at the Xerox store.

Yeah. And and that's like the, we we run a break thing cuz he has sex and it's like, Yep. That was supposed to be like the battle of, Was Ross guilty of anything with that sex? And what, what do you think? What's your take? I don't think anybody did anything unethical. Like, I think that it is the, the like situation as depicted in those episodes, it's very reasonable that Ross would assume that she was having sex with Mark.

Even, even though she repeatedly says you don't need to worry about Mark. It, it, it's actually pretty strange that the coworker would be the one that would come over to vent about her boyfriend during this time. It's a, that's just not great optics and I think that Ross is actually pretty justified in assuming that yeah, I mean I think it's just like, it comes down, I think to like real, like the minutiae of the language. And I'm pretty sure she said that. She says maybe we should take a break.

And I, I think that might be like where we have our little bit of a gray area. I could be wrong on that. I wrote down the actual sentence. She does say maybe, maybe we need to take a break from. And I don't think that's a binding, maybe. I think that that was a powerful sentence. I mean, you would think that there would be a little bit more conversation around like what exactly that means before anybody did anything drastic here.

I feel like if somebody said that sentence to me, I would assume we were broken up I, I think I would clarify, I would clarify does this mean, like, does this mean that we're broken up? Does this mean that you wanna see other people? It's intentionally a gray area here. Yeah. It's perfectly engineered for it to be, circular. There are things both of them fail to communicate. A hundred percent. A hundred percent, yes. Their couple's therapists would definitely be disappointed on them.

And while I am totally on Rachel's side of just the infuriating fascination that Ross has with Mark and like being jealous of Mark, cuz it really, it that is undermining her career to, I'm sorry, I, I work with many men. Is this gonna be like it for all of my male coworkers? Right. So I'm totally on her side with that. But I do think that in the particular situation she is, it was not ideal. It was not an ideal choice.

to invite Mark over to confide in during that specific moment, considering that she was aware that my mark was a point of conflict in the relationship. Not fair enough. So she's allowed to do it, but I don't think it was an ideal choice. And likewise, I think that to Ross was totally within his rights and was very reasonable to assume they were broken up. And. It's not an ideal choice till literally with it like an hour of that happening. Fuck to the girl Yeah.

Like he, he really went for that immediate rebound, Right. Yeah. Like we said is necessary. But I think, like, I think there's a lot to be said too, and like, I think this is where a lot of conversations also end up at focusing when we come to the break situation, is not just the fact that he slept with somebody. Okay. Like we, like we said here, there's arguments either way of this. It is the lengths he went to to try to hide it.

Yeah. all the moral ambiguity as far as I'm concerned, falls apart in the very next episode. The one with the morning after he tries to conceal it goes to great lengths. Yeah. Just traces like the whole network of like, who knows? We get down to like Phoebe's roommates, boyfriend, friend Gunther. Yeah. The coffee shop guy. Oh, I fucking loved because it's established that Gunther like a Pines for Rachel too. Yeah. As like this ongoing joke.

And he has a very like, The Lancaster's sent their regards moment because he get, he gets to be the one to say like, Oh, was I not supposed to tell Rachel? And then he turns around and gets to see she is watching Ross be Gunther not to say shit. Oh man. So what a moment for you, Gunther. Yeah. Just like the aggressive tour of the city of New York. To chase the opportunity to be dishonest. sort of erases any moral ambiguity that exactly work so hard on at the other episode. Exactly.

well, funnily enough that she doesn't really focus on that. Correct, correct. It, it is all about the fact that he did sleep with somebody and not about the insane lengths he went to, to try to hide it. and during that episode where like, they officially, officially break up because Rachel decides that she can't get over it.

There is this disgusting, slimy scene that It, it changed me from like on the dial of not being into Ross and Rachel or thinking, ha ha, I don't think they're actually that great to each other, to being wildly anti Ross and Rachel They do not need to be a couple. And it is the scene where like they are breaking up and Ross Gyrates through every possible performance of emotion that he can think of to manipulate racial into accepting.

He starts with this very dad, like domineering, trying to shame her into not being it and saying that it is hypocritical of her. Mm-hmm. and like, I did all of these things for you. And he's like standing above her like a coach or like a dad. Which I think is like very fucked up for like specifically if you know the Rachel character and like her relationship with her dad, that this would be like the attitude that he's doing right.

You need to pull you up by your bootstraps, and you need to get over your anger and get back with me. That doesn't work. She she hesitates for a moment. This is very effective on her. Not a fun scene. I do not like that. Right. And then, but eventually she overcomes that tactic. Good on you Rachel. Good on you. Really good on you. But then he immediately has this.

Fucked up, like baby, Like all of that masculinity melts and suddenly he is like begging her and that he grabs like he, so she says no, she doesn't know a million times, but he's still touching her. He's still like putting his body on her, right. As she repeatedly says, No, not great. And then like in this fucked up line, he's just like, he's like b like a baby. He's like, I love your arm. I love your shoulder and I love your art. Touching her after the million times of saying, Don't touch me.

And a million times as he is like trying to say why you should take me back. He's all, You are hurting me. And I love these physical objects. Literally nothing about you as a person. Literally, I love you as an object. He could not more clearly say, I love you as an object. Yes. You are a physical thing. Yes. That I want to be mine. Do you remember he's like making a list of like, qualities that he like liked. Oh God, yes. So fucked up. I I, I watched it.

It's amazing that this was not the episode that made me anti Ross and Rachel. Yeah. Yeah, dude. Yeah, dude. Cuz he didn't have really anything to say about Rachel. Well, like good. Any like positive qualities about her personality? Yeah, so they, they set it up as the scene as though it, in like a way that is meant to be romantic because they're making like ProCon lists of who to choose Julia, Rachel. And so they do Rachel's cons and he lists all of these fucked up things.

I wrote them down because they're fucked up. She cares about her looks. That's a pretty good thing because the only nice thing you can say about her is that she looks nice. So Great start hypocritical there, Ross. And then she's just a. He's a Dino doctor the, so he has diluted himself into thinking that I'm a D doctor, so I'm stooping Yeah. Right. So, and all of these things. And then he says all these lovely things about Julie. He respects her intellectually. She's a fellow paleontologist.

And then in this sort, like what's supposed to be a very powerful line, we get to Julie's cons and it's, she's not Rachel powerful stuff. They completely skip Rachel's pro list. And then they do Julie's pros and cons, not a single vice thing. Is that about Rachel? Yeah. I don't remember any Rachel Pros there. I, I think it was a noticeable absence that they skip right to Rachel's cons. yeah. Yeah. All we can understand is that he loves Rachel because she is Rachel.

And they say the famous line, it's always been you, Rachel. Which is I think just code that the, the God of this universe has shit in my soul and made me lucky for no reason. I have no choice. We are magnetized to one another. Then she says this amazing line of, because she finds the list and she's very upset about the list. Who wouldn't be?

And then when Ross is like chasing her about this list, she, she says to him, think of all of the most terrible things that you feel insecure about and that you think about yourself, that you are embarrassed and ashamed of. And then you found out that the person that you love most in the world made a list and they agree with you. You know what? Here's the thing. I don't think Ross has anything that he's embarrassed and ashamed of besides maybe being divorced three times.

I think Ross's narcissist. Yeah. I think Ross is embarrassed that his ex-wife was a lesbian. I think that's genuinely embarrassing, but that's about it. He I think he prob, I think he sort of wears his nerd badge honorably. He's a Diana doctor and he's proud of that fact Right, right. Yeah. But he, he's a raging narcissist. Even though Rachel is like way out of his league.

Regardless of who I personally find attractive on the friend's cast it is like, it's objective fact that Jennifer Anderson is better looking than David Swimmer. Yeah. And she's absolutely not quote just, or a waitress by the end of it. She's like a fashion executive, living her dream job, I, I think it's pretty well established that Ross is like poisoned to any kind of character growth that Rachel needed to go through. What does Ross need as a character? to grow?

what, what, what is Ross's you know how there's like want versus need in writing? Mm. And so obviously he wants Rachel, but what does he like, need? He needs like, therapy. Therapy, Respect for women feminism. Yeah. I, I'm trying to like the non jokey answer to it. I, I think is like So I guess like another, I, I wonder if like, there's another way to ask the question, which is more like, what does Ross think he needs?

Well, Ross thinks he needs Rachel, but like who he is outside of that dynamic? Oh, he thinks he needs Rachel. Yes. But like he needs Rachel. He thinks he needs Rachel. Cuz he wants Rachel. But like, what is it that he actually like, wants, or needs in a woman. Right. Because it's not, it's not the things that Rachel is offering. Right, right, right. I think he needs somebody who is very deferential to him and is able to sort of bolster his masculinity.

So he needs somebody who's traditional, traditionally feminine and appearance. He wants somebody, I think he would love a stay at home wife and mother. I think that's the only way that he would be secure in the relationship. Correct. Yes. He needs somebody who's going to bolster that for him. They also need to be incredibly attractive. I mean basically I think Ross's dream life is everybody loves Raymond That's his fantasy.

I Yeah. I, yeah, he, he, I think he definitely wants like a power because it's like just the waitress thing. He wants the status. It, it's infuriating, isn't it? Because like he shames Rachel for being, quote, just a, a waitress. But once she becomes something more than he hates it, just her waitress he hates it. He's immediately insecure. So what he wants is like a Deborah figure who gives up everything correct in order to be in that situation. A very smart woman, right?

She's smart, she's intellectual. She went to a good college. She has like very educated family background, but is willing to give it all up to be a wife and mother for him and be devoted to him. He wants Deborah Yeah, Agreed. I think that's, he's just in the wrong sitcom. I would hope that Patricia Heaton would like step on his nutsack. But he wants, he wants Deborah. He doesn't want Rachel. Rachel's never gonna be Deborah. That's true.

I mean, I, he ends up, thankfully they don't show us what their actual permanent will, they looks like. It's probably fucking gruesome. It's probably rough. I think it's like probably revolutionary road style like they're screaming at each other, all the side of the highway. But what was gonna say so when I first post that question, what does Ross as a character quote need? Like in that like want versus need literary analysis thing?

I, I found the answer to my question because Ross asked, Go for it as a character is the he's like to borrow the red pill sort of language. He is the symp, He is the the beta male character. He is probably like the archetype of the idea of a beta mail. As these people understand it as he is internally, like as he is framed, I'm not like adopting this value system. Mm-hmm.

he internally is what should in a perfect society, be understood as the perfect man because he is intelligent and he has a career and he is physically present and he will perform listening to women and Right. And he will be a shoulder to cry on, which I believe is a wonderful symbol for this ideology that he's not offering his art. He's not offering He cannot offer his heart. He cannot offer vulnerability of his own. Right. But he will offer a shoulder Yeah. He'll offer proximity.

Yeah. So he will be the shoulder to cry on. And so in this value system, as the writers are presenting it, he is the perfect man and He is the man that Rachel should be picking cuz he is what is best for Rachel. And so I think that is how Ross understands it. I think it's how the writers understand it. Right? And so all these objects are just keeping Rachel away from the perfect man So what does he need in this dynamic?

He needs to stand up for himself, he needs to assert himself and he needs to understand his value. That's, that's Ross's arc as the writers have depicted it. Yeah, especially in, especially in season one because you see him pining excessively as p the inferior man gets Rachel and it's because we learned that Ross wasted all this time because if he had just stood up then Rachel would've realized.

So if Ross's character arc is about learning to assert himself and understand his value, it just like that arc directly. Crashes into and contradicts Rachel's arc. Right. Which is to learn her independence and be independent from a domineering man mm-hmm. who has done such damage to her as shown with her father. Right. His is to be the poison that will abort Rachel's growth. It's a fucking awful, awful dynamic. Yes. My, this is probably the only episode my sister's ever gonna been watching.

It's gonna free her She'll be so mad. She's a Ross and Rachel's stand. Absolutely. She loves this show. All of the reactions that she has in the show, they're very genuine and she's very into it. Again, I understand for those listening that are like way into this show and don't necessarily understand it in this way, that's cool. I'm just one guy. This is the lens I'm watching it through. I also think you can be super into the show and think that they shouldn't be together.

Yeah. I don't think it's antithetical to, to think that, like, what if your sister were on with us right now, What do you think she would argue? I don't know. I should have talked to her more in depth about why she wants Ross and Rachel together. I think that it was just she was being very empathetic to these characters as written, and so it's clear that they want it, and so she wants it.

Mm. I, I think she was just very emotionally invested into this group of friends that she watched every week. And so I think she just became like, sort of in sync with like the emotions that these fers had. Yeah, that's what I guess, I don't know if I'm selling her short, I don't know what her argument would be to be honest. All right. Patreon content. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we look at my sister on so Oh, but I did wanna talk about Joey and Yeah.

Yeah. I didn't want us to go go too far away from this conversation without talking about Joey. So they sneak Joey in as a prospect right there at the finish line of the series. Pretty much. Yeah. I think they just, they were running out of ideas at this point of how like prolonged the lump. They Yeah. They, I mean, these people have a baby together, so Yeah. It's such low hanging fruit to look at like past generations content and deductible points.

But like Joey legitimately is, he's like a sex p He is yes, he, Joey's not a great guy. So I take that for granted, but if you zoom in, if you zoom in specifically on the later seasons, Joey, where this arc is happening and like what's happening Joey and Rachel are such a better, healthier couple. First of all, there's that wonderful episode where Joey has been reading The Shining and Rachel, basically they have like this sort of like competition thing and they like, they're each other.

Joey is gonna read a little Women and Rachel is gonna read The Shining, and it's this lovely little episode like Joey ends up like quoting little women and like internalizing. And he, he thought it was like a good book. And so there's this like growth in a way, like both of them grow in this way that never, it's never fucking present in Ross and Rachel. Right. Like an interest has been shared. Yeah. They, they laugh at each other's jokes.

They have like actual banter that's not just like, Them humorously digging in each other about their grievances and this relationship. They literally live together and are like, Yeah, enjoy it. They're fun. They're a fun couple. Yeah, they have like a good time whenever they're together. If I was in the friend group and Ross and were in it, I, every time they would walk into the room, I would probably just like clench and like brace myself for some of my fucking drama done.

They all seem to love that though. Yeah. They live for their friends drama, which in a way, like stay toxic. I love it. Like, yeah. Yeah. if you're you know, if you're stuck in sitcom, hell make lemonade. Just enjoy the tea. Right. Be very interested in your brother's sex tape. Looking at you, Monica. Oh yeah.

Yeah. Monica has this interesting dynamic with bras, like confronting people about why don't you wanna have sex with my brother She is too grown to be sitting on his lap as much as she sits on his lap. Truth. Yeah. Too grown for that. Also justice for Monica, and I'll just, I'll just sideline how fucking gross it was to watch, Like the Monica used to be fat jokes. It is bad. Like talk about didn't age well. I mean, there needs.

When we, we've been saying a lot of justice for X. Like this is really like there. We will definitely be returning to talk about that Monica at some point because it is like her for the first like two seasons. Like her personality is that she's lost weight. Yeah. Like that she's formerly fat. That is her entire personality for the first two seasons until they decided to make her like neurotic. She, especially I nineties fat suits were their own thing. Like there was their own energy going on.

They got, they flow to, they flew too close to the sun because they started thinking they had the technology to do double chins, but they didn't. I mean, I, I, you know, I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that statement and I'm gonna raise you. Goldie ha. And death becomes her. That's what I was gonna bring up. Yeah. Did I tell tell you that I once found like an auction website? The head s Oh yeah. We've talked about it. We thought about making a bid. It's, it's a missed opportunity.

Yeah. We, we really could have, we really could have had that fat suit. Yeah. That, that's our like two ships has Theon fat suit. The will, the will they won't they of Goldie Hs. Death becomes her fat suit. I think it's a will day. We just gotta give it time. Yeah. It's always been You fe suit.

We're slowly getting towards the end of our conversation here, and I'm just curious, from a trope perspective, is there anything that you think, from a will they, won't they just the pure mechanics of, of devising this, what did friends do well with it? What didn't they do well and like, did they add anything to this trope?

I think that friends is an important milestone in, as you go further along beyond this point into the two thousands sitcoms are going to sort of split into many different genres. And friends is an important milestone of like, sort of drifting into this more serialized like I agree, semi soap, opera sitcom or there's gonna be, not only will they, won't they, but like longer character arcs, but sort of this hybrid show they're very self-referential about this fact in friends. Mm-hmm.

They have Joey who's a soap opera actor and he often is like those plot lines are there to sort of in the self-aware way, poke fun at how soap opera e friends can be. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, I think that's true. So I would say that that they built on a lot of will. They won these that came before and I think they just added to it and upped the ante a lot. And like they made it the central focus of the show in a way that I don't really think we saw before.

And I do think that it was replicated it has been the central model of a will. They, won't they? Until at least Jim and Pam. Yeah, I, I agree. I think that it also is an important milestone show for the will. They, won't they, as far as it being really part of the marketing of the. In a huge way, like sweep Sweet, can't miss what's happening with Ross and Rachel. It being on the front magazine covers.

I I certainly we see the beginnings of this with Diane and Sam, but I don't think, I think it was perfected in Ross and Rachel. Yeah, One thing I do wanna add that I just thought of is another way that I think that they innovated the trope is they are very skilled at, because it's an ensemble cast, they have the freedom to do this. They can push it to the back when they need to. Yes. And pull it forward when something Yes. Juicy is happening. Completely agree there. Completely agree.

It's it's why I think you, I mean, you generally find, well they won't, they in an ensemble for that very reason. Mm-hmm. they like the traditional format for a sitcom is the ab structure. But friends I think almost throws that out the window because they almost always have a c they have such a large cast easily. Yeah. That they have to have a c in order for it to make sense. And Ross and Rachel most of the time are in that C plot.

even like big, like what is quote unquote like big episodes where like big things happen for them. They're Yeah. It's a beer or a C plot. Yeah. It's rare that they're the, they're the alo. And so I think that that's part of the reason that people didn't actually get tired of it when it was being aired. Yeah. Is it wasn't always shoved in their face even though it was very Sammy. Sometimes the Miss chips Any final word on the Ross and Rachel situation?

I think as much as we've like shit on them, there is absolutely no denying that it is iconic. There are millions of people who cheered when they, let's, let's got together, let a little bit. I like there it's iconic. You cannot deny it's iconic. Friends did a will, they won't say that had millions upon millions of people tuning in every week. It, it really did, I think, re popularize the trope.

Not that that trope ever went away, but I, I really think You think will they, won't they, You think sitcoms? Most people would probably think Ross and Rachel, if, if not Jim and Pam. So I think that I think that there's, there's a lot of sort of nostalgia that a lot of people have for it. I think ultimately you and I have agreed fuck Ross and they should not have been together. But you can't deny from like, how the show is constructed. It's, it provides sort of a, a satisfying ending.

Well I think unless you've got anything lingering, I think that just about does it for Ross and Rachel. Well, they won't, they, I think you've got a a narcoleptic animal to pick up for your boss. So Yeah, we better get off. I so I, I think we did it. I think we done did the Ross and Rachel episode. I agree. Thank you very much. Thank you all for listening. Remember to rate, review and subscribe to because it was on, and have a great week. We'll see you next time. Bye bye.