Hello, Hello, welcome to another episode of Beauty Translated. This week. We're very excited we're talking to one of james dear friends.
So proud to say that.
Yeah, so take it away, Jennie, tell us about who we're talking to today.
Yeah.
So, I've been really fucking excited about doing this ever since you asked me to join the show. We're talking to Hala Hunt Hendricks, otherwise known as the main mastermind behind the transcendental avant garde black metal music outfit Liturgy. Her music and her writings and philosophical mindset means a lot to me. So this is someone I'm a big fan of, someone I'm very honored to call a friend. If you're not familiar with us and you're just here to hear Hala speak, I am very happy to have you.
I really walked.
Away feeling inspired in a way that like, honestly is the reason why I she took us to church. Yeah, I mean, it's the reason why I was like so drawn to her music in the first place, is because it's so immense and uncompromising, and it's something that like reforms the way my brain sees music, art philosophy, And I know that this is like hyping this up a lot, so please enjoy Beauty Transcendental Black Metal Edition with Halo Hantendrix.
Hell yeah, Jamie, take it away.
Hi, I'm so glad to talk to you again. I'm a little shit Like You're a very easy person to talk to, but like there's just like a lot that, like I don't know, there's a lot about you, there's a lot about your art, and there's a lot that I kind of want to get to and discuss. And I feel like our audience might not be like entirely familiar with you and what you do. So would you maybe want to like introduce yourself like a little bit and.
What you do and what you've been up too lately.
Sure, Well, it's just I know that you're like a musician and you but you've had your hand in like a lot of different pots lately. I've seen you doing like live art and like sculptures and got like a new art exhibition and stuff like that.
I wanted to say if I could, like Jane introduced me to you for the first time. I had never listened to liturgy. I am not somebody who is a I do not listen to metal However, I did listen to your entire catalog this morning and I loved it. I listened to it on three time speed. Is that okay? I'm kidding, I didn't really, No, no no. I listened to the most recent album, and I love the most recent album.
I do like how it sounds better. Effects is like it gives it this kind of like tunes energy that like it isn't entirely absent in the music anyway, but it's kind of more like an undercurrent. Anyway. I've done that, so I wouldn't blame you for it.
I could see that working with a lot of your like really like complex like uh Midi compositions and stuff like. I definitely see like the arc work sounding like like a really like fucked up like bullet Hell video game, like when it's like spot up.
Gosh, it's funny you say bullet Hell video game. I was listening to it on my I was on a walk this. I'm so sorry. I'm not even letting our guests fucking speak right now. I'm so rude. I'm I'm on caffeine right now. I don't normally do this. I'm normally on a heroin.
But.
So I was on a walk and I was listening, and I was having this religious experience listening to the latest album nine three six Suppules of three, which I love, by the way, and I really was having like a religious, spiritual experience, and I felt like I hate to be this girl, but I felt like I was Baneta and I could have started killing some angels, you know. Oh, I don't know if you're a fan, but it was very banned that like up up that alley.
So as Jennie was saying, like, I integrate the music with a philosophy practice as well as an art practicist,
and those two other aspects are becoming increasingly important. The music is derived like especially if I'm black metal, but has a lot of other influences from experimental music and especially classical music, like I love love classical music, and a very interested and kind of like synthesizing that form with the form of like kind of rock or like just kind of counterculture, like a bit large and in in a in a way that in a way that like really kind of engages them, you know, and creates
the best of both worlds, and it's a kind of ecstasy that like neither of them heels on its own. And then I did two sculpture shows this past in the past year and a half or so. And sculptures are nice because that medium is so concrete, Like it's nice to kind of have like objects, the relics in the world because music is so immaterial, and the sculptures have like they're intended to have religious significance as well as being engaged with the discourse around in the contemporary
art world. So there's critique elements as well. Yeah, and then there's the philosophy to mention, like from from the Thesy has been around for a long time, like super long time, and when the band first started, I was sort of writing visionary texts sort of about you know, about using music and counterculture as a medium for religious corscendants. And that is on the one hand, very influenced by
continental philosophy, especially the news and creature. But I'm I'm a practicing Christian, so it's it's because a Christian sort of foundation, I guess. And yeah, so the idea is kind of that it's a total work of art in you know, something like the vision of like Richard Wagner. There's like like between that and likeseph voice, like there's sort of like a plexus version of that, and there's sort of a more romantic version of that. I mean, Genesis period is also maybe like a more temporary.
Rest and peace.
Yeah r I P R P Jen. We listened to their memoir in the band.
Okay, Well yeah, sorry, no, I was just going to say, I'm I'm glad that you were able to kind of like, uh, explain that, because when I when I tell other people like about your music, or people ask like what's that tattoo on your leg or whatever, I find it difficult to like some because like you are, you know, ostensibly like a musician, a black mental musician, but there's so much more to it than that, And for me personally, as a fan of yours, I don't want to just
like simply say, you know, like, oh, she's a musician, because there's like I I would usually describe it as like there's kind of like three kind of things like you just said, Like there's like the music which melds with like kind of like Hegelian philosophy, which kind of melds with Christianity, and that's kind of this trinitarian thing that all kind of like works together. Would would that be kind of an accurate way to describe what you do?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's very love but yeah, and it is trinitarian too, Like I'm very interested in the sort
of metaphysics of the Holy Trinity. Like there's this term paraclesis that the allergencies, which is like the life of the Trinity, the three persons in the Trinity, Like like the literal is just like dancing around I guess what were they alive to just kind of inter penetration, And like the basic idea is to treat music, grama and philosophy as the person of the Holy Trinity, to sort of be in the image image of God, to create
the likeness of God. That's another mystical theme. Yeah and yeah, but also I mean I think being all of that is a pretty black metal thing.
To I totally agree. I totally agree.
I think it totally meshes with being black metal, and the black metal kind of is the main thing is what it is. But like there are like another thing that is kind of black metal is to not really fully be in a scene. You know that There's just like so I see it as being very faithful to what black metal is but there are a lot of black metal bands that what it means is that they play the style of black metal.
Yeah, and I totally agree, Like, I think it's truly like punk rock to be cavalier in a way that
like no one else is. And I know that this is something that you, being a black metal musician, has probably like came with like a lot of I guess, sort of like cultural hang ups within the scene because it is very insular, and a lot of black metal fans like for it to be insular, and you being so bold about like trying to do something new, it's kind of pissed some people off, for lack of a better word, but you still keep doing it, and I think there's a very I don't know, I just I
find there's just to be a real like earnestness to what you do, and that is a lot more earnest than just the same people who are just like doing the same like Mayhem riffs and like corpse Pains and all the same kind of like cliches that you expect from the genre, you know what I mean.
Yeah, And I guess what I think maybe makes some people uncomfortable is that one thing that's not very black metal about me is that I am very like keen to besides love, you know, and like like the importance of love that's kind of the main thing, you know, because I guess characteristically the key word for black metal is hate. So so it's like, so there's that, so
like I get it. And then in that context, that's that's kind of like a wild like a wild move to make, whereas like in most of the world, provoking the importance of love is like not so controversial.
Sure, I've kind of seen this term pop up around like punk and metal scenes a lot where there's a sort of like radical empathy towards like a lot of kind of newer extreme music, whereas extreme music of yesteryear was all about like death destruction and someone like you, yeah, right, Like what you're trying to do is make this like kind of transcendent art that yeah, like Carmen said, like yeah, when I'm like listening to one of your records, like when I'm like really feeling it, I feel like I
don't know, like i feel like I'm like ascending. Like there's like a like a true like ascendance to it. And I love like a lot of angry hateful music. But I think there's something very like unique and inspiring to like try to like deviate from that, using similar formulas to what these other bands have laid out, but using it for a different goal.
Yeah, and there are more and more bands who take that approach, which is great. And I mean, in a way, everyone knows that any kind of by music is secretly about a certain kind of low you know, because it's sort of about like there's a scene and there's something that matters there in terms of the community and stuff
like that. But maybe there was a time when everything's so contextual and sometimes and things get so cliched, and so I feel like maybe in the eighties and nineties, you know, being in a kind of like hardcore world or something and talking about love would feel like it's coopted. In advancer, it sounds, you know, like it's in booking
kind of hypocacy. Now it's like those gestures that used to seem used to be kind of meaningfully ceta cultural, you know, now those are kind of the ones that seem more cliched.
Maybe.
Yeah, you bring up Christianity, and I feel like that's probably a good springboard to like, I mean, there's a lot there we had who was that Monica Helms her.
Yeah, Monica. I mean I've had a We've talked a lot with Pascas about our relationships to religion and spirituality and stuff like that. Monica Helms, Gabby Claiborne and stuff like that.
Yeah, And it's always like I don't know, it's always something in the trans scene like when I I remember, like I've several times I've had to explain like, yeah, I'm a Christian, but I'm not like in the way that like I'm not a Christian in the way that like I'm not one of the bad ones, so I'm
one of the cool ones. Yeah, But like I think that there is like for me personally, Like I don't know how much I've talked about this on the show, but like for me personally, I have a lot, a lot, a lot of religious trauma, as a lot of queer people do. And it's it's very like understandable to me why a lot of queer people would have such a knee jerk reaction to Christianity and religion as a whole.
But for me personally, I had a lot of trauma and I was just like raised Christian because I had to be, and I saw a lot of really just like scary, just like traumatizing shit as a child and went through a lot, and then that drove me into being like a very like strong lunch like Reddit atheist, kind of like Bill Maher type was like very smarmy and very like I was the kid that would go around telling all the other kids the Santa Claus isn't real essentially and just kind of wearing my like atheism
as like an edgy kind of badge of honor. So except you would just be like sky Daddy, is it real?
Yeah?
Yeah, oh you believe in the flying would go.
Oh my god, that's the one from that's a throwback.
Yeah yeah.
So uh So to bring it like full circle and like as an adult, like really just kind of wondering at my place in the universe and also reconciling with, you know, the fact that I am queer and I am trans.
And God made me that way.
And it's a nice like kind of reverse UNO card to all the people that say like, oh, well God doesn't make mistakes, you were born this way and blah
blah blah. It's like, well, no, God made me as a trans woman, and that's actually okay, And it brings me a lot of power and comfort knowing that I'm taking something that brought me so much pain and trauma and suffering and using it as a source for like comfort and a source for like something that heals me and like nourishes me instead of something that I always have to be like afraid of. If I may ask, were you always a Christian?
I mean, I mean I believe this pretty much everything you said. And I think that part of why it's been easier for me personally to invout Christianity is that I probably had less Christianity in my life growing up than you, you know, like.
Did you grow up in New York City or you did? Okay, Okay, I'm sorry.
And so I had some Christian influence in my family, but I was primarily in like a like a secular or for it, you know, and and like, but I had some experiences that I don't know, I had a mix of positive and negative experience as a Christian any way, I would say, but it was never like like, oh, the whole world around like the experience that like, you know, you hear like everybody complains about having had, you know, like, oh, the whole world around me is Christian and like I'm
being abused by it and all that sort of stuff like that, and and like I think that it's fairly easy to just say, but harder to feel that like maybe all of that was a hypocritical use or an abuse of the Christian message, you know, and that actually, you know, civil rights for clear people and women and so forth, is you know that that historical phenomenon, which is so sort of new and unique, is a lot of ways the flowering of Christendom, you know, like like
it's if you sort of look look at the history, uh, you know, Western secularism, and a lot of the positive dimensions of it kind of came, you know, like it kind of already is Christianity, you know, like like if you really look at the big picture, it's like and this is something that like says all the time too, you know, like like that and and so yeah, but like I guess what I kind of imagine, like the world is just kind of changing a lot, and the
idea generally that religion is just something from the past. It's like stupid, you know, and that like only dumb people could possibly believe in God. Or that that it is only that like that view is dissolving anyway, you know. And so so religion is kind of coming back into culture. But a lot of people are converting to Christianity and then immediately doing it adopting these reactionary values from a sort of like old version of Christianity that we should
be transcending. And so in a way that makes it feel to me more important than ever to sort of foreground Christianity by its name and propose a version of it that is an improvement on the secularism rather than like a regression to like the school version.
Of a rejection of it entirely.
Yeah.
Yeah, that is something we've talked about on the show a lot.
Is that there does seem to be especially with like gen Z and like I don't know.
As a return to religion for sure, with people who aren't like traditionally like conservative and stuff like that. Necessarily, I think people are looking for community, looking for something to connect with for different reasons. I wanted to say something that you talked about like a long time ago, related to the Trinity and related to art and music and drama and that being a reflection of God, and I think it's really funny that. Well, I don't know,
it's just like an interesting thought. I think that like art is definitely a reflection of God and of the people that make it. But we're seeing now like people rejecting art and embracing fake art that is made by like AI. I don't want to I don't want to have an AI conversation, but I'm kind.
Of curious Halo's thoughts on AI.
Well, okay, okay, they say that the death of art is like the death of God and vice versa.
You know, yeah, I get what you mean.
I remember thinking about this probably when I was like listening to the artwork and all the like, uh, I don't know how so immediate, Like there's like Kelvall, like that song sounds like it's like a like a colosseum, and it sounds like it's very like Gladiator. There's a
lot of like triumphant kind of sounds in that. And I've also heard John Moss say this about his music before, where there's something kind of like medieval about it and it's kind of like this marriage between the past and the future where it's like the far far past merging with the far far future and so that's why I am a little curious, like what your thoughts are on I guess ai and I guess like the future of the death of art. Yeah, yeah, just stuff like that.
Do you have any kind of opinions on that? Have you made any videos about that or anything?
Yeah?
I had lots of them for sure. Let's see. I was also interested in the previous point. Let me see, I think I connected somehow. So yeah, the death of our I oh yeah, Younger people getting into religion or
a sense of community. I think that people are getting into religion also because they desired discipline, and that there's been especially with you know, the kind of onslaught of casino reward, attention and economy, social media stuff that like everyone is really battered by not just like stimulation, but just sort of like having their attention corn apartment and secular liberal values being exploited, like being hijacked to sort of justify all that, you know, just like you know,
like be as free as you want, you know, like any discipline is you know, oppressive or whatever like that. There's this kind of idea of that, So there's this kind of false sense of like more moral justification and kind of actually just being taken advantage of by like advertising or whatever. And so I think that that's part of what the impulse is and then getting into creating art and God being art and the depth of all that. But like that's again part of why I'm so just
in the metal classical music nexus. Like in some ways I think that with the technological changes that are underway, you know, there's an opportunity to be more creative and to be better artists than ever and to have you know, more people devoting their lives to creative expression and sharing and healing than ever, and we should really be leaning
into that. But there's such a danger of that not being what happens, you know, and and almost kind of people just losing their capacity to like love or care or pay attention, you know, at all, and sort of just become like, yeah, just become like Reese in the wheels of like some like machine you know that doesn't
even know we're there or whatever. And I think more and more that's like maybe maybe that's just a task, you know, a task for the arts generally, in for music and everything is to kind of just like keep that ember glowing of you know, the idea the identity of like God and art, and so as far as a I specifically goes like I can see an optimistic possible future or something, and I think that, you know, what's happening is happening. No one's going to stop happening.
There's also like in terms of like like people going back to religion, I'd say there's kind of a it feels it's we're living kind of like hopeless times, especially in terms of like politics and stuff, you know, because all of this is structured in such a like NonStop capitalistic way that like a lot of us like no matter what, like if you're like a Marxist third worldiest or if you're just a Trump sumporting redneck, like, we
all see the problems of society. So it kind of makes sense to me that people would turn to religion or turn to like something that would just be like, all right, well, I can't change society. I can't change politics. I can't stop the gears from spinning. I don't have
my hands on the lever of power at all. So maybe if I give my faith to God, or if I give my faith to you know whatever, like all these like weird little like zoomers that are just you know, they use like Catholicism as a means to just like be racist or crazy or what ever. Like it's it's a means for them to try and retain some kind of power that none of us have.
Right.
Ultimately, Yeah, lately, I've just been myself discovering how much like my own brain is not meant to just fucking process thousands of people's thoughts and feelings and like all of these things every day, like via social media, and how overwhelming that is. And you know, listening to your music this morning on my walk was like one of the first times I felt disconnected from a lot of that. And while so I really really appreciated that and enjoyed it.
Oh cool, that's awesome to hear. Thank thank you for saying that, because that's so entumious. What I was about to stay responding to Jean's point, which is that I think that and so everything's helpless, and so going to religion is a way of kind of feeling, you know, feeling like you have to meet and see I guess, I mean, I think there's a slightly more optimistic way
of viewing that. I mean, I don't feel like I really understand what's happening in the world, you know, and like like clearly it's destructive and bad, but it's also like kind of beyond comprehension and like certainly in my agency, and I'm very interested in cultivating, you know, make having the music be really complex, really intense, and really kind of like a funnel into contemplation and references in world history and like the kinds of things that foster agency,
you know, like being able to pay attention, being able to feel hopeful, like being able to feel like you don't know for sure that everything is fucked in a way.
And then you know, because also politically speaking, like there could be a moment where that little bit of agency that there is could come and hindy maybe in like old school you know versions, like in like early Marks writings, you know, the idea what it is that you know, capitalism builds up as much productive force as it possibly can, and then there's a moment when like it's time to like season in the production of it, you know, and like that you sort of have to like not miss
that moment. But yeah, I mean I feel like the world, whatever is happening to the world, it's like it isn't anything that I think is going to happen, you know, It's like and so I don't know. Yeah, the most the most one can do is it's kind of hang on structures that keep some sort of sense of agency, freedom, hope, like beauty love.
Yeah, yeah, I think that's interesting because, yeah, that's another kind of side of it, where like a lot of this could be the result of people, like I said, like knowing what's going on and having like an idea of what's going on and it being hopeless. But alternatively, it could also be people like I don't know what the fuck is going on, So I'm going to put my faith into these structures that have always existed, that are like tried and true to a certain degree, and.
They reflect like the natural patterns of like the planets of the unit like are solar. It's like all of this is.
This is this is sort of the plot of Exorcist three a little bit. Why when she jumps out of the window, No, Exorcist three, Oh is that two? When't she I've actually never seen two because everyone says it's bad,
but Exorcist three is amazing. It's all about like the pillars of society like it's it's like a mystery movie where this detective has to figure out who's doing these murders that are completely unexplainable, and it's kind of like, I guess in a trinitarian sense, it's there's like the medical system that is failing this person, and there's like it's like the medical system, the police, and religion, you know, these three like pillars of society, and like none of
them can figure out what's going on because it's something cosmic. And the main character is like an atheist and he's trying to deny that there's anything cosmic happening until the end of the movie, where it's like completely undeniable that this is absolutely something like cosmic that's happening.
So yeah, that's a really good movie.
I want to watch that now. I just told that to me, Jane.
I've had something speaking of attention, and I mean, like I have such a so much difficulty watching movies based for some reason.
Like really, I saw you post something about David Lynch not too long ago.
Lynch has been dear to me for a very long time.
So oh, yeah, he's the best.
Yeah, I don't know, I don't.
Know if there's some reason, like my my own attention span is definitely kind of.
You're kind of like a zoomer in that regard.
Yeah, I mean, I mean I watched a lot of like informational stuff. Do you have, like the family guy on the subways? Right now, I'm into this YouTube channel called Geography now, which is like it's really big, like it has like three million subs, Like it's like bigger than my antenna, like and and it's this guy who's kind of similar to Fantanda, this kind of like fun you know, fast concert, but he's just like.
But he's reviewing geography. Yeah, and he's like Eastern Siberia three out of red Flotel.
His little theme song and like a little like like weird voice, like funny voice, and like like all this like really intense cgi going on and like but it's it's actually really I don't know right Like my I'm gonna check it out because I'm just thinking more and more just like oh I need I need to understand the world, Like what what's going on in all these different places? You know, like and so yeah, I don't know anyway. Do you.
Do you think that maybe your attention span is like just shorter for like fictional stuff, but like easier for you to like take a like informational stuff like that.
Yeah, I guess in a way, I guess in a way, it's a positive motivation because I think I am learning a lot, which is good. But yeah, I feel like I there's a deeper kind of attention that goes with consuming long form dramas and like that there's this cheapness, you know. I don't know if I'm like like passing out, like watturing like twelve geography videos in a row half away, but that's not real learning. But and yeah, I don't know.
There's an emotional ativement that goes with long form drama that I yeah, I have difficult to be like.
Sitting still for too much to commit yourself too. Yeah, yeah, I'm certainly like that with TV. I think there's too much fucking TV. But I always watched me, Like I watched two movies yesterday, Like I'm always watching movies.
I mean, I really wish that I was doing that, like, like I feel like it's really healthy and important.
I think it's something you go in and out of. Like I like there's been like droughts where I don't like watch a lot of movies or listen to a lot of music, and then like I get back into it and I'm just like just consuming all day.
But I kind of agree that TV. To me, TV seems like actually toxic.
I think it's a puns.
I think there's definitely a lot of television that is worthwhile art, but like I just I think there's like too much of it. Like I don't I don't necessarily think that a lot of like TV shows justify being TV shows.
I think they could just be like a movie and you just won and done.
Like there are some movies though that I think should be TV shows, Like maybe Doctor Sleep should have been a fucking mini series.
Okay, I watched May December last night.
I could I could have watched like twelve, I could have watched hours of that movie.
I want to watch it. I want to watch it. It's just such a creepy content. I remember when that was in the news, Like that was here in Georgia. That's crazy. No, it was actually in Seattle, but they set it in Savannah. They set the movie in Savannah. Oh wait, I thought that lady was from Georgia.
I don't know, that's what my boyfriend told me, but.
Was supposed to be a TV suit.
Yeah, yeah, that's very interesting to me.
I don't I mean, David Lynch is good, like obviously you made Twin Peaks, which is a great tea TV show. It's probably the best TV show of all time. Yes, but yeah, I don't know. I Maul Holland Drive also is my favorite, like like gun to my head, like I always say, like that's my favorite movie.
So I don't know, I'm curious.
I wonder what that world would look like living in and the Mulhallan Drive TV show.
I don't know.
I don't know if that would have like resonated with me as hard it being like a long form thing like that.
But this is a part time movie podcast, by the way.
Yeah, we love talking about movies.
Too.
To just start making them, Yeah, oh I think they already are.
Are I'm not fully convinced that a lot of the like kind of you know, Superhero cape shit stuff out there isn't at least partially written developed in some way by artificial intelligence.
Well you saw that, I mean you saw a South Park thing right, Like I did not know. I mean, I mean they have like a.
So you watch South Park, so you hate trans.
That's not what I meant, and then we always But I also I have seen some stuff like, uh.
I love I love Sealth Park.
There's there's like an AI TV show making tool that was kind of trending a couple of months ago, and the demo was South Park and they were they did they were doing generative procedural Soft Park episodes and it really was not that much different like it was. It was like kind of like pretty much just as funny as South Park.
How many times did Kenny die?
Five million times? I mean, maybe AI making Jared aren't like succeeding in making kind of media for art will just kind of raise the bar for real art.
No, that's a very good point.
I've never actually really thought of that, but yeah, I mean there's a really cool Nick Cave quote that I want to pull up about AI and how like the whole thing about like making art is that it's meant to be channeling something human, you know, like it's meant to be human.
Life threshing them.
Yeah, it's something that like even if an AI could conceivably make something that like resembles like real art, at the end of the day, people that like art aren't going to want that because we want something that's human, something that's flawed, something that you can relate to, and you can't relate to a machine. Like I mean, if anything that's very like insulting to like compare human life to you know, something that just like a machine can do.
How would you feel about an AI liturgy song? What if it was like really good?
I mean there's well, I mean, like years ago they already you know, they made that, like AI Pallas album and Ai Doinger.
Oh yeah, yeah, I do remember that.
Because those were not that like like like it sounded like like the Doinger one sense a lot like Donder.
Yeah and krallis being so like, I don't know, like the way they sound like, I could see that like translating into something that like I don't know, like I could see like a robot like kind of learning how to do that.
I guess, I don't know.
Yeah, but I would Yeah, but I guess that's what I mean, Like if I guess I would feel it's pretty just what you said, like like as if it were to become really easy to just feed energy's back catalog into an AR and then generate new stuff that was very similar to it that would just inspire me to do something different from that.
Yeah, go ahead and make AI. It'll just make me grind harder.
I mean, it's almost like it's almost like we're learning what we still don't really know what it is to be human in a lot of ways, you know, And so like the more AI steals from us of what we thought was human, the more we can come in on what really is human.
Maybe.
Yeah, I like the every like doomer thing we've brought up. You've found a way to like like, oh pull, that's very That's what our listeners need to hear. Honestly, we used to have a segment where we talked.
About why we hated here.
Oh my god, we did full disclosure. I do think that was the most likely thing is it's a will collapse and it would be really terrible. So I'm gonna say that because they do, because there is I mean, because maybe not.
And yeah, I want to change the subject a little bit. I want to so obviously, like I said, I Hi, I'm new. I'm a new fan of liturgy, and I did some research and like Janie said, there is some like people have some like hatred for the band for whatever reason. And and like you said, that's because you bring like different els of like religion and love into
your music, which I definitely felt. And that's a reason why I personally have like avoided black metal because it's usually so like hateful and like heavy and dark, whereas this felt so much like like we set up. I don't want to use the term uplifting, but Janey said ascending, you know, but like uplifting makes me think of like gospel.
Means it's a mix of dark and uplifting for sure, Like, yeah, sometimes it's easy to forget, forget.
That how much? Yeah, yeah, it is someone.
Who doesn't listen to metal, like it's pretty brutal.
One of my favorite albums is Sousing in the Banshees the Rapture, the very last album, and that for me personally is like kind of uh, I don't know if that's what that sounds about me, but it says that you're trans and gay, trans and gay and fucking lame because I don't listen to anything new. But how much do you do you feel like? And I feel like this happens a lot. I feel like people will find like one thing that they don't like about a trans woman.
And maybe I'm maybe I don't know if you feel like it's not fair for me to bring trans women into that. But I feel like a lot of times people will find one thing about a trans woman that they don't like to completely write off what they do, what their talents are. Does that ever feel like in your experience and that happens to you?
It's hard to say. I mean, I think that something that happens to women in general, like American female politicians, you know that they have harm time, you know, and like it's like you see a woman like in a place of power or something kind of like calling the shots, and it's just like, you know, if the man were doing it, it would be like, oh, yes, of course, thanks for being so strong with the woman doing it,
Like what is this bitch thinks she is? And like and like everyone is like that, you know, you know, and there's a lot of trans book in the world, for sure. I think that, like.
And I don't.
I think people are sometimes not upfront with like the fact that they don't like somebody because they're trends, so they'll find like some other reasons, yeah, or a woman just to be like, well fuck them entirely, you know. And when I was researching, I mean when I was looking at you and learning about who you were, I was reading just stupid you know, stupid people online and just being like, wow, people are dumb.
Like I think, I think there's the way that people have of like not even realize that like forming a boys club and not really realizing that they're doing it by sort of skat goading the more emotional outsider or something just like very unconscious sort of way of like doing like in group out of group signaling that like you don't even know that you're doing because part of any music community is you know, like it's also people sort of trying to like have a friend group and
sort of likes in that friend group, and like you know, like that's like that that that's a very complicated thing that you know.
You sort of like a congregation a little bit.
You have a psychoanalytics sort of you know approach to where like there you know, there needs to be if there needs to be like a master, and there needs to be escape good and an outsider, and there's you know, an object of desire and like you know, people are sort of you know, displaying themselves and saying things to form alliances, and you know, I mean, I mean, the world is a really complicated place with a lot of
unconscious forces. Like we're so like conscious of so much of what we do, I mean, and that can be true in freer communities too, you know, like like like it's not it's not like the straight world. I mean, like I mean, metal magazines still don't cover liturgy almost
at all. And I think generally, I think it's because like a lot of the journalists really like the band, but like they just don't quite want to go to bat for it, you know, because yeah, you know, but but I don't know, because it's also like I mean, there are more and more clear metal bands, and so I think that the culture is changing, and so you know, that's a really wonderful thing. It's so much different. I mean, it's it is so much different now than it was
ten years ago or like fIF ten years ago. But I did but anyway, but I don't mean to say no by any means to what you're asking either. But I also don't mind because I also, you know, again, I also kind of understand people being that because because I don't. I don't mind, Like I don't, I don't totally MND you know, like why why not make people nah.
A little bit uncomfortable?
I think the same.
Yeah.
Yeah. I also think like if someone wants to write me off for being trans, I don't want them as a fan anyway, Like I don't, like, I don't know. I also I feel like at this point, like trans people, I mean really especially trans women, no offense guys, but like trans women are crushing the music world right now. Like I mean, there's so many trans women that are like the fucking best at their respective genre.
I feel like, like.
Sophie like undeniably like the greatest producer of our time in my opinion, And I just I feel like it was something that like if you respect music, you know, music, it's something that like you have to like see and accept. And as far as like metal goes, like yeah, you're right, there's a lot of trans people in metal, and there's a lot of like I don't know, like just trans people in general are just like really on the cutting edge, like by and large and really always have been.
I don't know.
Part of that, like, in my opinion, there's kind of like a two part thing where like one, I feel like it kind of like commands respect in a way that's like good because I I don't know, maybe this is like too optimistic of me, but like I feel like a lot of people that like aren't necessarily like hateful, but are maybe like ignorant towards like trans people and like queer people in general, like they could be they could become more open minded by being like, oh, well
I really liked against me and now Laura Jane Grace is trans and I respect her as a musician, So it might kind of like soften people's hearts in a way that otherwise might not. So I don't know, there's like there's yeah, there's what you said that There's definitely going to be people who are just like bigoted and are like, oh this this is a woke band.
And I'm writing this off immediately because.
The Black Rifle coffee drinker, Yeah.
She's trans, Therefore this band's woke and it's bad. But there's also going to be plenty of people that like what you do and respect what you do and your transness. If anything is going to be like kind of something that will maybe make them a better person. You know, like maybe make them less inclined to write off queer people in general.
Do you have any thoughts on that maybe.
I mean I think that that that's a great point, and it also leads to another part of the point, which is that, you know, it's much easier to be a trans musician or artist than a trans anything else, you know, like like like oh, you're a transmusian, okay, whatever, you know, Oh you're a trans artist, great, you know, like I love you know, but like, yeah, you know.
It's easier than being a trans bartender, I'll tell you that, yeah.
Or like a trans like lawyer, you know, or judge. People don't really let trans people have real power, and so it's like if you're sort of an entertainer, you know, I mean, I don't think of myself as like an entertainer, you know, but like we are kind of like cordoned off.
Like there's still transphobia in the arts for sure, but like yeah, and also in some ways it can make it easier, you know, but like it's you know, that's a world where it's accepted relatively, you know, but like having your hands on levers of power of some kind, like like people like they don't like you don't let transform men do it, and and and and that, and that's you know, that's not something that people really talk about in a way, you know, like my like like
I don't mean these days, I don't think about being trans all that much. I really like one thing that's nice is to have traveled so much this year and to have traveled like all over the world, you know, like all over the world basically you know, any country that like it's fairly normal for a rock band to go play like we played in you know, and like I didn't encounter Penn Shybia once like like not once
like not. I mean maybe there was maybe there was transphobic pops that people had or something like that, but like no no one at shows or no one at airports or at you know, no cashiers, like no one, you know what I mean.
So and you didn't get the famous TSA pat down at any point.
I got, but like people were really you know, they were like, yeah, I mean anyway, there was no It was actually a lot better than I expect, to be honest, because you don't really know it's like okay, if I go to Poland, like what's going to happen, you know, like you know, and it was like all just fine, and like, there are so many people out there who
just like don't. Yeah, I do like the idea of just kind of being an emissary for being trans, just being completely normal, because that's all it is, you know, it's just normal, and there's so many people who just like happen to not know that, and like, you know, especially older people like I like, I find generally like people who are in their forties or whatever even that I know, don't they just don't understand being trans. And
you know, most most younger people, regardless of their political orientation, you understand it way better. You know, like it's kind of something that's just gone to shake out because anybody who's like, you know, seventeen or something just knows the trans people are normal.
I've just been bombarded with like yeah.
Yeah, I mean a lot of people have trans friends, trans coworkers, like yeah, it's it's certainly, but but there's no trans people, which is exactly yeah, yeah, but I've never been arrested by a trans woman.
Can we fix that?
Exactly? What's the trans cop?
Yeah?
I agree, and that's that's definitely something I've said a lot too, is that my my transness is very It's something I don't think about a lot.
Like I don't know how many trans people I would know for but I do kind of connect better with trans women than anything else. Like it's like, oh, there's there's another person just like me, and like, uh, it's nice, nice sister for me to kind of find that. Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
You you have played with a few of like my favorite artists working right now, Boa and the hero Is Collective who I actually saw and met Jenna like week ago.
Shout out to them. I love them a lot.
Okay, that's awesome. Uh, underscore that the Boa is awesome.
She is, she rolls. I want to hear some new music from herself.
We we hung out for a bunch, you know, in Australia actually because my I did a philosophy seminar in Melbourne after our Melbourne show that was three days long and that's where she lives and came to it, and uh, it was like super involved and.
I mean it's nice. It's I don't know why that is exactly what it is about, like whether there's even a correlation or not, but it seems like a lot of the trans people I know who are into experimental music are also more likely to be into philosophy, and uh so, like like like she's an example of someone who you know, I can like spend hours like discussing bagel and well or whatever with.
I did have one more question in my notes if we have time, But what do you think that is? Like what do you think it is about, like being queer or being trans that like draw because there is a lot of trans people that really like black metal and grindcore and like horror movies and shit. And do you have a theory as to why that is?
I mean, maybe there's something about a kind of baseline of alienation one experiences that like makes that kind of Catharsis makes sense or something like I feel like I've had to wonder about like why things are the way they are more than a lot of people maybe you know, and and that sense of just like what what is it that's not working? You know, like why like why
isn't this easier? I don't know. I mean everyone experiences that I don't know definitely know anyone else's experience is like that.
But there's something unique to like the trans experience that like other like, you know, if if you don't have like gender dysphoria, if you don't have like I don't know, if you've never had that like splinter in your mind to quote the matrix, then yeah I could definitely Yeah, yeah, yeah, I go.
I sort of I sort of like feel bad for anyone who's never gone through the experience of gender transition, like because it feels so natural to be you know, it's like, okay, like the whole world is addressing me as this one gender and now like now now we're going to switch, you know, and like just kind of seeing that that that can be a contingent thing and that it's not set in stone is like I feel
like it sort of teaches you. It gives you an experience of just how much like anything can change or something, you know, how how non natural a lot of things that we take to be natural.
I think that's a very hopeful note to end things on. This was a lot more like I don't know, I know.
That you're.
A very peaceful person, but like this still was just a very like don't it was very hopeful conversation. But I'm very glad that you came on the show to talk with us about.
Thanks, thanks so much.
Wow, she really took us down a cerebral path there, Jane.
I love cerebral paths.
Yeah.
I think it would be a good idea for our listeners to kill all those brain cells that they just grew by by taking some calls, because I always think it's a good idea to give your brain cells like a little haircut, you know, like after you read War and Peace, you have to like watch like Writt and Stimpy, Yeah, to balance it out.
Yeah, so.
Nettie is like the innocent version of Ritten Stimpy.
Yeah.
I don't know, I could have thought of something dumber. Probably Neddie is a little even too too cerebral for me.
I love some of the episodes, those cerebral episodes about it Nettie, the one where they take the outlines away, you.
Know that one. Oh yeah that is cool. Yeah, this's pretty cool. Actually fucking bind reality.
Yeah yeah, well let's let's bend some realities and take some calls from our listeners.
Yeah.
Hi, my name is Violet. I'm twenty two year old trans woman being in the South, and I'm calling because me and my girlfriend don't have sex anymore. We started dating before my transition, and we've been together the whole thing. We used to have sex, like crazy, very straight, normal sex. And I've been transitioning for about two years now, and I'd say we have sex maybe, I don't know, once every two months. It's not the best. I don't really know what to do, and I don't know if it's
a fixable situation. And a lot of times I'll be like, oh, I don't know. I mean, we could chuck me right now. Oh good, But she's just kind of all the time, like she's just very sleepy. And sometimes I think about my coworker and I think about putting his stake in my mouth. I don't know.
Okay, wait, what what happened at the end of the wait threw me a curveball.
I have a lot of thoughts on this actually, because look, I'll just say this, baby, sweetheart, darling, sweet baby, sweetness, I'm gonna go out on a limit. I mean, you said this was straight sex before, and assume that this is a CIS girl that you were dating.
Before likes sis men or you know men.
Look, I'm just gonna say this, like I've I've experienced this in my personal life I've seen this in other people's relationships, but it's really not an uncommon story at all for a transfeminine person to who's dated. Like so I mean this this basically is my story. Like I dated like CIS women like my whole life. I can't out while I was dating a SIS woman, my SIS partner was for the most part, really supportive, you know, supportive,
so she could have been. But as your body changes and also as you know, I mean, it's a hard thing to square because like I don't really hold it against a CIS woman for like doing everything she can being supportive, but at the end of the day, like she like wants to date her boyfriends, you know, like she doesn't necessary Like I don't know, like there's no really Like I'm trying to say this like as delicately as possible, because I have seen relationships where someone transitioned
and then they stay together a long time and it's it's worked out for the most part. But by and large, I see a lot of transfend people just kind of drift from their CIS female partner because I mean, because of a lot of reasons, like everything it's different, Like your partner didn't really like plan on signing up for a lesbian relationship, and a lot of times like you can see them kind of feign excitement there, like ooh, I get to be bisexual now, and there's a lot
of sexuality. Yeah, and there's a lot of like I don't know, I just I don't like. This is just a stupid podcast. So I don't want to like tell you to break up with your girlfriends or anything.
Oh, you know, we can't tell anyone to break up ptunity.
This is not financial advice.
Yeah, but I really I gotta be honest with you, baby, Like I think you really need to like take a look at your relationship right now. I think you need to have a very like tough conversation with your partner.
Another thing that I always like, this is one of the truest things and like any relationships, is that sex is the first thing to go when a relationship is like near its end, it's the first thing to go, Like if you find yourselves like masturbating separately, or like if you maybe are exploring like open options and stuff that aren't quite as exciting to the other partner. No matter what it is, having sex less should always be like a warning sign red flag for anyone in a relationship.
It just sounds like to me that you need to have a serious conversation, like with your partner about what she wants out of this relationship, because I mean, it's very possible that she is very supportive and she does love you, and it just might not be completely in
the cards. And also I think also not just to put this all on her, I've also seen a lot of like transferm partners with their like sis girlfriend that they came out with and the trans girl like is as their body changes, they're like, oh shit, I've never experienced this whole life of like hoeing it up, sucking guys dix hooking up with other guys, hooking up with trans people. You know, like there's a whole like sexual world out there that you're probably like feeling a bit like isolated from.
Well, yeah, she said she wanted to suck her coworker's dead.
Yeah, she didn't have to throw that in there at the end, but she did. So Yeah, I'd say, if you want to stay with her, first of all, I need I think you need to find out the answer to that yourself first. If you want to actually stay in a committed relationship with this person, and then two decide if you want it to be, like maybe if you want to try like opening your relationship or what. But I feel like a lot of this is going to begin with a conversation that you are going to
fucking hate. Yeah, And I can't help you all that much with that, but that's my advice. Yeah, which is what people avoid. They have with that tough conversation and it just goes on forever and ever and ever, you know, and yeah, and ultimately you got to have that tough conversation.
Do we want to take the next call?
Yeah, let's go.
This is more like a platonic thing. But I feel like a lot of my friends from college only want to hang out by just like trilling at somebody's house and like eating dinner and watching shit on TV or whatever, and like that finds per me. But I feel like as I am getting older, I'm having trouble maintaining friendships for people don't want to like go out and do ship because I.
Want to go out?
What do I do?
Oh?
Girls, what do I?
I want to stay friends with these people, but like what do.
I You're boring? Ass friends? Snooze alert.
You want to stay home and watch anatomy of a fall, Get the fuck out. No, no, you gotta, baby, you gotta go to the club. You gotta try drugs that you can only do with your nose. You gotta you gotta uh be scared to leave your drink unattended.
You gotta like.
You will make friends if you start like living like a sleazy like Paul Schrader esque life, like, if you do some lou reed walk on the wild side, you will make friends, baby like. And those friends, I promise you, they're gonna be the worst friends you've ever met in your life.
They're tear buy and large, horrible.
People, and they will influence your life in truly negative ways.
So it's great, it's what I do.
I can't really recommend it at all. I'm really depressed all the time. Milea's falling apart, and I don't have any money. But yeah, at least my friends aren't boring.
That's how you know. Jane and I are and she never ever calls me ever for a movie.
Don't give me that. I'm about to call in to the helpline, be like, my friend is so mean to me.
I don't want to watch.
A movie with you, Janey, That's all I want to do. But yeah, I have a hard time relating to this. I am not a going out girl. I am the girl who is thirty and looking for friends that want to eat food at home, watch a movie and just that's honestly not like a vegetable with me. Did the caller say how old she was, because I would say.
Like, if you're in your early twenties, like, hell yeah, that's boring as fuck.
Yeah.
Like when I was like up until I was maybe like twenty eight, like I was just addicted to the rage, Like I was going out all the time.
Now I usually just go out like once on the weekend.
Okay, well let me ask you this.
But I real quick.
I love I love having nice little like all like dinner parties and stuff like that. Like I do enjoy that. But I do also get like if your friends like never want to go out, You're like, come on, like it's such and such as birthday, it's this holiday it's like and everyone's like, no, we're gonna do the same
thing we always do. That is very boring. My honest advice in this situation would be, I feel like there's got to be someone in the friend group that is feeling the same way you do, and I feel like you got to get closer to them, because I've I've had friend groups like this, or at least i've like, no like people like this. And what you have to do is just find the ones that also kind of feel the same way and start asking them out and start going out with them, mentoring drinks with them and stuff.
And then either you'll make new friends while you're going out, or your old friend group will will if it have no choice but to follow you out.
I just want to say, when I was a kid and I was looking around the club, the people that were old to me were the weirdest fucking people.
Oh they're losers, they are. Yeah, it's true.
Do you remember that time that what's his name showed up to that house show?
No, the actor Andy Dick. Are you talking about Dick?
He showed up to the house show and it was like I was at that same venue like a week before, and he like showed up. You know, it's just that one.
I don't really know what you're related all that much, but.
But that's just weird. Do you know what I mean? To be the one like forty year old guy at the at the club.
Well it's I don't know, it depends. It's like he really does.
If you go somewhere that like it's like a bar that old people hang out at. That's like sweet, it's like cool, Like it's like the Median Age, like it's fifty. The Earl in East Atlanta Village is a very kind of like older people place. Like that wasn't a joke. Older people hang out there, Like it's that's where older people hang out.
I feel like Kurt hangs out there. Kurt, do you hang out there?
I hang out there? I like the girl I this is getting like I'm just saying, like there's not no what is that.
Johnny's Hideaway?
I think I know what you're getting at that, Like.
There is like a certain age where it's like come on, like you're still out here with like twenty year old drinking every night, Like there is like, yeah, there is something like weird about that. I don't think that really applies to this call that much though, because like no, I think if they're I think if they're like young and like want to party, I look jokes aside, you know, I encourage that like life is fucking short, and I think that you should have fun.
And like also if your friend group is a bunch of lesbian women bisexual women, I would branch out and find some gay men to be friends with. Because gay men want to go out all the fucking time. I don't know who wants to fucking stay at home and watch a movie.
That's true too, and that anecdote I just said, like it was about like finding the one person in the group. It was usually like the gay guy that was like, you know, actually I do want to go out. Yeah, you know, girl, I think you deserve to have fun.
And yeah, just like I will say though, like just do know if this isn't something you've done a lot, like it does kind of get old like it does like you can get burnt out, and like Carmon said, you don't want to end up being like the old the old person there that's always hanging out and it's like,
what are you doing? Man, don't you have kids? Like I don't know if you can really like convince because some people are just boring, Like some people like do just want to like have missionary sex and watch the Office like that's just what they like I want that, and you know, there's nothing wrong with that either. But yeah, i'd say, you just gotta really, you just got to find one person because like when you're going out, people are social, people will talk to you like you you
sound you sounded fun. I feel like you know each other and we're best friends now, so we can go out sometimes.
Hit us up.
That was fun. I feel like we actually did genuinely help some people today, which is kind of a first for the pod. You know, Yeah, so let's celebrate that. Yeah, let's go out. Let's go out and celebrate thought. If you invite me, I will go out. But call us and you may hear your voicemail on next week's episode, call Us at our Beauty translated leveline, which is.
Six seven eight five six one two seven eight five. For whatever problems you have, will make them worse. And also, you know, if you got anything you just want to like brag about, like any like hot gossip or tea or something like that, it doesn't always necessarily have to be like I'm having this problem, we're sex with my If you if you just have like a spicy, juicy topic for us, like hit us with that too, well.
Thank you so much for tuning in this week's episode, and we're so excited for next week's episode. It's going to be our homies from the Ant Show.
Yes, oh yes, we go from our most intellectual episode to easily the dumbest ones.
I can't wait for you all to hear that.
If y'all were repulsed at the UH at all the big, big words we used here.
Don't worry. We're going to be using a lot of tiny ones on the next episode.
So a lot of tiny ones, but big concepts for you to wrap your brain around.
That's true.
Yeah, that concepts.
That is true. That is true.
So stay tuned for our episode with UH with our friends at.
The hit show. Stay beautiful, y'all, Stay beautiful.
Thank you for listening to Beauty Translated. Beauty Translated is hosted by me Carmen Laurel and Janie Danger.
Produced by Kurt Garon and Jess Crunchinch so special thanks to Ali Perry and Ali Cantor. Our theme music is done by Aaron Kauffman and Beauty Translated as proud to be a part of the Outspoken Network from iHeart Podcasts.
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